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Matthew 12:40

Discussion in 'General Talk' started by rstrats, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. rstrats

    rstrats

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    Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?
     
  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Was Jonah in the belly 72 hours?

    Well, any student of history and Jewish culture knows a part of a day is considered a day. Just like today, If I say it will take 3 days to do a job, I don't mean 72 hours, just over a 3 day period. Does not matter if I start at 3:00 PM the first day and and finish at 11:00 AM the third.

    Now, as for the heart of the earth. Christ compared it to Jonah. Jonah called being in the belly being in Sheol.
    He said he was in the Pit. Hell and Paradise are indeed deep in the earth off of the Pit.

    While Christ's bad was in the tomb his spirit did descend into the Pit, as all spirits did when parted from the flesh. He spent 3 days there and then ascended with all the spirits of the saints in tow on his way to heaven.

    So, no, the tomb was not the heart of the earth. Only the body of Christ was in the tomb, not his spirit.

    So Christ died, spent 3 days and 3 nights in the Pit, then arose. His spirit, not his body, is the issue at hand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  3. rstrats

    rstrats

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    Coreissue,

    re: "Well, any student of history and Jewish culture knows a part of a day is considered a day. Just like today, If I say it will take 3 days to do a job, I don't mean 72 hours, just over a 3 day period."


    I agree if we were just speaking of a calendar day. But If I said that it was going to take 1 day and 1 night to do a job, you wouldn't expect that at least a part of a nighttime would have to be involved?

    Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion adherent?
     
  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    No, the 6th day is Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath and Christ had been in the Pit since the day before, meaning Friday.

    The whole timing issue revolves around whose calendar was being used. By that I mean the Jewish or the Roman.

    If the Roman (midnight to midnight), there is zero problems. Friday is one day and night, Saturday 2 days and 2 nights and Sunday, since the resurrection was in the morning, 3 days and 3 nights.

    Remember, Matthew had been a tax collector. Tax collectors were considered traitors and most assuredly were not mainstream religiously.

    But, being of the Tribe of Levi, he was well informed on Jewish thinking.
     
  5. rstrats

    rstrats

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    Coreissue,

    re: "No, the 6th day is Saturday..."

    In the US, the 6th day of the week is labled Friday.


    re: "The whole timing issue revolves around whose calendar was being used. By that I mean the Jewish or the Roman. If the Roman (midnight to midnight), there is zero problems."

    Actually, there is a problem. Each midnight to midnight calendar day has two nighttimes separated by one daytime. So that would mean there were four nighttimes and not three.



    re: "...since the resurrection was in the morning..."


    If by morning you mean during the daytime part of a calendar day, I'm not aware of any scripture that says that the resurrection occurred during the daytime.
     
  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Sunday is the first day of the week and Saturday is the 7th. Same in the Bible Just look at calendars.
    Again, with the Roman standard, Friday ended at midnight, thus from sunset to midnight was one night, midnight to midnight Saturday had a second night and midnight Sunday to dawn a third. After all, after midnight it is part of the next day, not the prior.

    When midnight strikes, the day on the calendar changes.

    We use slang to define many things when it actually isn't accurate, but convenient.
    A day is defined as from midnight to midnight. Morning is from midnight to noon. Daytime is when there is light. Night is when there is no light.

    Using the Roman thinking, there is no issue. There were 3 days and 3 nights. It never said daytime.
     
  7. rstrats

    rstrats

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    Coreissue,
    re: "Sunday is the first day of the week and Saturday is the 7th."

    But in your post #4 you said that "...the 6th day is Saturday...".



    re: "...midnight to midnight Saturday had a second night..."

    Actually, it would have a second night and a third night separated by a daytime.
     
  8. clark thompson

    clark thompson Regular Poster

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    I think people miss the point by focusing on this, this gets their attention away from the cross, this is my view.
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Sorry, my typo. The Jewish Sabbath is the 7th Day.
    As said, daytime is not mentioned anywhere. Divided or not, there is only one night per day.

    I am trying to get the point across how the days and nights were defined by Matthew is not found in the Book of Matthew. So, his thinking is all theoretical in this discussion. We simply do not know how he was looking at it so so we cannot make any definitive statements.

    What we absolute do know, as stated in the Bible, is the Sabbath began at sunset of Friday, Jesus died and descended into the Pit before it began and he rose on Sunday Morning. So Friday, Saturday and Sunday we can definitively state are 3 days, without any doubt or argument.

    So, not knowing how he was thinking what is the point of trying to figure it out now? We cannot. So what is the point of trying to figure it out when it does not change the fact Christ died, descended and rose again on the 3rd day in the Resurrection, which is the true important matter here.
     
  10. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree but also recognize the Bible tells us to always be prepared with answers. So, it cannot be disregarded.

    Some of the staunchest advocates of the Bible in the past began as those out to disprove the Bible.

    Biblical Christianity is a knowing religion. The leap of faith for many was based on knowledge first. The only religion in the world that can make that claim.

    So, indeed I agree there are those who look for arguments against the Bible. But, I also know there are those with questions that want answers.
    When I was very young this passage was confusing to me. Not any more.

    But, with that said, I still believe having answers is important.
     
  11. rstrats

    rstrats

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    Perhaps a slight rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear: Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights? If it is using common idiomatic language, there ought to be examples of that usage in order to be able to make that assertion.
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    As I stated before in this discussion, I am not a 6th adherent.

    I am not sure exactly what you are after, so let me phrase it this way. Christ was put in the tomb at the close of the day just before sunset just before the start of the Sabbath, which was Thursday. Thursday to Friday is one day. Friday to Saturday two days and Saturday to Sunday three days. That contains two partial days. Never stated it had to be 72 hours.

    We know that is a fact because the Bible states in the tomb before the Sabbath period began and resurrected on the first day of the week, Sunday.

    That was based on the Jewish day of sunset to sunset.

    Remember, the first day of the week, for Jews, began on our Saturday at sunset.

    But,. it also states the morning of the first day, which required sunrise.

    It is really nailed down beyond debate.
     
  13. rstrats

    rstrats

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    CoreIssue,
    re: "As I stated before in this discussion, I am not a 6th adherent."

    OK, perhaps someone new looking in will know of some writing.
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    They can try, but there isn't any.
     
  15. Blake Henry

    Blake Henry

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    At the time of the crucifixon of Jesus there lived a man named Josephus. Josephus was a first century Jewish military leader-turned-historian. Josephus was a “hostile witness” since he was not a Christian. He wrote:

    "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day".
     
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Josephus was a strange and contradictory man.

    But that actually made his historical recordings all the more valuable concern Christ and some other topics.
     
  17. rstrats

    rstrats

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    As we're well into the new year, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language, But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
     
  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    Easy. Every example of a worker being paid for a days work.

    The did not work 24 hours but their work was considered a day of work.
     
  19. rstrats

    rstrats

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    CoreIssue,

    What examples from the first century or before do you have which show that it was common to say that a person worked a calendar day when no part of the calendar day could have occurred?
     
  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Administrator Staff Member

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    The question is irrelevant to the issues since a whole or portion of 3 days did occur.
     

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