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Is Jesus 'a god' or God?

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Yes, I can see that. One obvious feature of any serious church, is that Lucifer, who is clearly depicted in the Bible as having quite preexisted the creation of the word and man both, used to be an angel. Or to get technical pedantic and specific, he used to be an angel of light, but became an angel of darkness, meaning a demon. That is made pretty clear in quite a few places.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
My own problem with Russell, it's not religious. I did some historical research on his social milieu in New York during the Civil War. He was anti military to the point of being a seditionist, and lived in the America's primary point of immigrant entry. He was trying to take both locals and new arrivals away from the civil war.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, I can see that. One obvious feature of any serious church, is that Lucifer, who is clearly depicted in the Bible as having quite preexisted the creation of the word and man both, used to be an angel. Or to get technical pedantic and specific, he used to be an angel of light, but became an angel of darkness, meaning a demon. That is made pretty clear in quite a few places.
Fallen Angels are never called demons and demons never called fallen Angels. Per Job fallen Angels are bound in the pit so they cannot be demons.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Yes, I can see that. One obvious feature of any serious church, is that Lucifer, who is clearly depicted in the Bible as having quite preexisted the creation of the word and man both, used to be an angel. Or to get technical pedantic and specific, he used to be an angel of light, but became an angel of darkness, meaning a demon. That is made pretty clear in quite a few places.
Fallen Angels are never called demons and demons never called fallen Angels. Per Job fallen Angels are bound in the pit so they cannot be demons.
Really, when did that happen? I do know that Michael is mentioned in the Bible (war in heaven, Satan expelled), but I never quite cottoned on to where that occurs in the timeline. Most people say before the fall, Satan driven out, comes to Earth. Maybe, maybe not. When does this Satan going into the pit happen?
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
The Bible is quite clear. Satan and the fallen angels fell like meteorites on the earth. The signs of that fall are quite clear. God creates everything perfect, yet the sons of war are throughout the heavens. Just look at the moon, battled debris is called meteorites and asteroids, outer space is loaded with the debris. The fallen angels had heavenly domains that they abandoned.

Job says the fallen angels are chained in caves of darkness, the pit. The pit has more than one chamber. There is hell where the Angels were kept and paradise, where the Saints dwelt until the resurrection. The Dragon, Satan, stood before the woman, Israel, when she was ready to give birth to Jesus.

At the second coming Satan is bound and cast into the pit for a thousand years.

The AC is revealed at the rapture. He is indwelt by a demon, the demon of Alexander the great. The false prophet is indwelt by a demon that rises from the pit. Satan indwells the AOD. They are the false Trinity. The sixth bowl clearly states this indwelling.

The fallen angels are not mentioned from the war until the white throne judgment, where they are judged. Only the condemned are then judged and cast into the lake of fire. Saints are glorified and rewarded during the wedding feast, which lasts the seven years of the tribulation. It does not say how the millennial saints are handled. But it does say there will be another rapture at the end of time when the earth and heavens are destroyed and made a new.

While certain things are not laid out in the Bible everything we need to know is.
 
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Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
No, I haven't got any problem with that, I can see that really clearly. The part in the first chapter of the gospel of John talks about the Word being present at creation too, and the Word also predates the angelic spirits. The battle between good and evil or darkness and light is for control of the lower human and terrestrial creation, although obviously that does simplify matters a bit (there's more to this than war and peace).
The description of the JW's beliefs here is a bit murky, though. The angels were actually present and witnessed creation, now what are the "Bible Students" doing in their research? Is there a prophecy aspect, are they going to have visions and share in the angels position of having witnessed at creation, or what? Because it sounds like their making a cosmic court case of the thing, is it some king of God on trial paradigm here, are they going to witness on behalf or God's character? And in what way to this link to the trial by Pontius Pilate.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Read the link, the Hebrew is literally defined in the OT. It is literally true. The Bible is quite clear the Angels were created before because they were witness to the creation of the earth. Read the link.
That's nice. By the way, you still haven't told me which version you study from. Where did you take Hebrew? I've met a lot of multi version, fluently multi lingual people myself who collect Bibles, usually including apocryphal material and alleges scriptures from other near eastern cultures. By the way, I'm not Israeli or middle eastern myself, I'm white. And the Bible coming to the British Isles didn't change real reality, it just opened up a previously insular race to outside influences.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I prefer the New International Version and the New American Standard Bible. The Bible was written by Hebrews within their culture. So it doesn't matter what other cultures say, the Bible does not change. The books of the Apocrypha are not scriptures.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
I prefer the New International Version and the New American Standard Bible. The Bible was written by Hebrews within their culture. So it doesn't matter what other cultures say, the Bible does not change. The books of the Apocrypha are not scriptures.
Yes they are. The word script means written document. Which ones are sacred or true or of significance to you personally is the question.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
It's nothing to do with the silly link. The issue with you is that you yourself actually know nothing and have nothing to say, you're just life sharing other people's guesses, opinions, and internet e detritus. Also, Jehovah's Witnesses are an American Religion who only speak English, specifically the only translation of the Bible they know it The New World Translation.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to make definitive public statements on who Jesus was and is. So, here is what they believe:
  • Michael the Archangel is the first and only creation of God.
  • Michael created everything else
  • Michael became Jesus when incarnated
  • When he resurrected he was once again Micheal
  • Jesus as 'a god,' not 'God.'
For more, here is a good source.
A few points about your little report. First of all, what you think the names of the angel and the profit mean are completely insignificant, and you're linguistically wrong anyway. Names do not have objective denotative and definitive meanings, they belong to people, and what they mean is in the vein of people who know them. Names can be "good or bad", in the sense that the people they apply to live their lives, do their deeds, and form reputations with the people who know their names. You need to take a college logic class and learn what denotative and connotative definitions are. Your name, (whatever it is, and I've noticed that you're too cowardly to print your name on the forum) is DENOTATIVE of you. Further, in the eyes of the people who know you, you name CONNOTATES what you are like to others around you. So, the little anonymous leaflet in the link is just a doughy platitude.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member

None of the apostles or prophets went to college or the ancient
version thereof. Academia gets it wrong more than right.

I have reasons not to share my name. I will share its meaning, that being World rule, The ruler of the world. Gaelic Scottish in origin. I am half Scottish and half American Indian. My Scottish side has been in the country for at least 300 years and was the first in settlers in Kentucky. I have two tartans, sept Noble and the awarded USN tartan originating from Edzel, Scotland, where I served.
 

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CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
It's nothing to do with the silly link. The issue with you is that you yourself actually know nothing and have nothing to say, you're just life sharing other people's guesses, opinions, and internet e detritus. Also, Jehovah's Witnesses are an American Religion who only speak English, specifically the only translation of the Bible they know it The New World Translation.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to make definitive public statements on who Jesus was and is. So, here is what they believe:
  • Michael the Archangel is the first and only creation of God.
  • Michael created everything else
  • Michael became Jesus when incarnated
  • When he resurrected he was once again Micheal
  • Jesus as 'a god,' not 'God.'
For more, here is a good source.
That isn't even true. Jehovah's Witnesses don't teach that, that's just what some random nonbeliever who thinks he's a cult expert got out of it. There's nothing in the Watchtower, or the Bethel Booklets, or Awake at all except some standard 9th - 12th grade reading level storytelling based on Bible characters' lives, with non-New Math style (not thought question) footnotes asking, who, what, when, where, and occasionally why. The "morals" of the church are a straightforward school age reading level set of instructions also constituting the bylaws of the Independent nonprofit corporation.

That groups assessment of the churches' belief system is absurd, false, rude and absolutely illiterate. The Watchtower Society barely even has a theology, it's really more of a storytelling club. People should stop spying on American Citizens of a Sunday morning and putting secret pamphlets around to ignorant irreligious moralists. Its sows discord among the population, it's a federal crime violation the first amendment as well as the fourth amendment.

That Come Let us Reason Crowd sounds like a secret society. They failed to state their own religious affiliation, are making accusations which cannot be proved at all by any form of logic outside of their own religious set of beliefs, and they literally have no idea what they're talking about.

Religious spies like that need to be arrested and brought to trial. It's illegal for them to be going behind those citizens backs telling other people what they believe, they don't know what those people believe, only Jehovah's Witnesses know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, religion is legally a private matter, and telling someone else what they believe is impossible (mind reading and telepathy do not exist).

I think these secret police cult watch groups need to be investigated. I'm going to start keeping a watch out for them and find their addresses and do some legal investigation. These criminal snoops and spies must be made publicly accountable to the National Constitution.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
Them believing Jesus is a god created by God is not very good thinking, in a way it says that God created Jesus to be a pagan deity. Jesus is Lord and above all creation because He made it, He is God in the flesh.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to make definitive public statements on who Jesus was and is. So, here is what they believe:
  • Michael the Archangel is the first and only creation of God.
  • Michael created everything else
  • Michael became Jesus when incarnated
  • When he resurrected he was once again Micheal
  • Jesus as 'a god,' not 'God.'
For more, here is a good source.
You haven't made an academically valid statement there. Prove that the JWs believe that by using original sources, meaning the writings of actual official Watchtower Society material.
 

Heather Frank

Advanced Poster
I prefer the New International Version and the New American Standard Bible. The Bible was written by Hebrews within their culture. So it doesn't matter what other cultures say, the Bible does not change. The books of the Apocrypha are not scriptures.
Both the NIV and the ASV are anti Anglican blasphemies as well as being stultifying oversimplifications well beneath the intelligence of a native English speaker.
 
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