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Is belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?

Speak Light

Getting Started
.
But - The Trinitarian
Translations do not express or describe a Jesus existing " previously " as only a mere prophetic promise - to come in the future.

What does the Bible say about Joh 17

KJV - Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

This is the Trinitarian false translation, BUT WHY WOULD TRINITARIANS MISTRANSLATE THIS PASSAGE IN THIS WAY ? ?
how would this mistranslation be relating to the trinity - why was it important TO INVENT THE IDEA that the glory that Jesus had, with the father was - ONLY WITH JESUS, BEFORE THAT THE WORLD WAS CREATED.

Here is the original message of the Greek manuscript.


:5 και And - νυν now - δοξασο glorify - με me - συ you - πατερ father - παρα from - σεαυτω yourself, - τη the - δοξη glory - η that - ειχον I had - προ before - του unto - τον the - κοσμο world - ειναι that is - παρα from - σοι you.
5 AND NOW GLORIFY ME YOU FATHER FROM YOURSELF, THE GLORY THAT I HAD BEFORE,
UNTO
THE WORLD THAT IS FROM YOU.

does anyone understand how or why in Trinitarian theology, Jesus had a previous literal physical bodily existence and glory with the Father before the world was created, THEN, HE SUDDENLY LOST ALL OF THIS GLORY - IMMEDIATELY after the world was created, and then came to be born on earth - THEN HE RESURRECTS AND ASCENDS TO HEAVEN TO AGAIN RECEIVE AGAIN THE SAME GLORY THAT HE HAD LOST, FOR APROX 4000 YEARS, SINCE THE CREATION OF THE EARTH.

this is how the Trinitarian Translation is attempting to explain - what Yahashua was doing and who he was for the first 4000 years after creation. He was a second person of the Trinity - who existed before the world was created with glory of the father, he then, LOST ALL THIS GLORY AND WAS STRIPPED OF ALL this glory immediately, just after the EARTH was created - only to regain the glory again, after he had been resurrected.

How
then, is he Co – Equal, if he goes up and down - progressing up and down and then up again, moving through stages of power and glory - loosing and regaining his glory - and does not have the power or ability or right to maintain his glory eternally ?

This contradicts the Trinity doctrine. ? what is CO - Equal and Co - Eternal about Jesus the son - HOW IS JESUS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER ?

If we go to the original Greek manuscripts
Saying Joh 17:5 AND NOW GLORIFY ME YOU FATHER FROM YOURSELF, THE GLORY THAT I HAD BEFORE,

UNTO
THE WORLD THAT IS FROM YOU.

Joh 17:5 και And - νυν now - δοξασο glorify - με me - συ you - πατερ father - παρα from - σεαυτω yourself, - τη the - δοξη glory - η that - ειχον I had - προ before,, - του unto - τον the - κοσμο world - ειναι that is - παρα from - σοι you.

This is a huge difference - Yahashua is saying that he will be glorified with the same glory he had with the father - HE WILL BE GLORIFIED with this same glory - and GLORIFIED UNTO THE WORLD

- not before the world was created - the Trinitarians completely alter this passage - but why ?

he was preparing to immediately die thereafter - and return back to the father - THE
GLORY THAT I HAD BEFORE, “ will be “ manifested - TO THE WORLD THAT IS FROM YOU.
In Trinitarian doctrine, the divine nature of the eternal Son is defined as the possession of CO EQUAL and CO - ETERNAL
But in the Trinitarian Translation, he was void of the Glory with the Father for the first APROX 4000 YEARS after creation. He did not have the divine nature returned to him until after he resurrected.
The manuscripts explain - :6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me OUT OF THE WORLD : thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. :7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. :8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely THAT - I CAME OUT FROM THEE ……… /

in - THE WORLD THAT IS FROM YOU.

The K.J.V renders this passage to change it to say . ... .

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

This is a completely untruthful translation -
Trinitarians are removing words, moving words around and adding words.

The original says Joh 17:5 AND NOW GLORIFY ME YOU FATHER FROM YOURSELF, THE GLORY THAT I HAD BEFORE, TO THE WORLD THAT IS FROM YOU.

Then he goes on explaining in detail how this GLORY WILL BE MANIFESTED TO THE WORLD because, here - he is at the ending of his ministry and will die in a few days and return to the father. Paul speaks about having been chosen before the foundation of the world - having been given to us before the creation of the world.
Does this mean we literally pre-existed as PERSONS before at the foundation of the world - or, did we exist in the foreknowledge and pre – destination plan of God ?
The Translation attempts to invent the idea that jesus existed as a separate 2 nd person of God before the world was created, that they mistranslated, altered and changed
Joh 17:5 to insert the trinity doctrine.

Trinitarians pretend to explain the Trinity by making Bible Jokes - bouncing back and forth - bouncing from one contradiction to the next, in their mis – translation - ONE MISTRANSLATED CONTRADICTION IS OVER - RIDDEN and CANCELED OUT = BY ANOTHER CONTRADICTION
the Trinitarian trick is to keep bouncing and to keep you bouncing. - Their Translation specifically was written to bounce contradictions off of one another and these endless contradictions are what builds and explains the Trinity for them.


How Can Trinitarians explain why that the only begotten Son of God and the “ Holy Spirit “ are never once mentioned anywhere in the manuscripts of the Old Testament ?
The Trinitarian Translations do not express or describe a Jesus existing " previously " as only a mere prophetic promise - to come in the future.

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:

if The Old Testament believers were worshiping the Godhead / trinity in a manner that was incorrect and false, how then did Jesus exist " previously " as only prophetic promise ?

The Translation is claiming that God had allowed people to incorrectly worship and disregard the true worship and teaching that - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in three persons in GODHEAD / TRINITY

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent: - repent for incorrectly worshiping the Godhead / trinity .

How could someone mistakenly or falsely or disobediently worship and rebel against something that did not exist yet and never was revealed to them nor heard of ?

The Trinitarian Translation presents a second person who already pre existed - who is not coming OUT of God, but who already exists in heaven with God and is being re - positioned, re - located and moving from one existing position to another, who is being PROMOTED to be seated literally beside { AT or ON } the throne or AT - ON the right hand of God.

Yet the manuscripts says - sit ex / OUT OF my right -

while the Translation says sit AT / ON my right hand

here this pre – existing separate, distinct CO - Equal, CO - Eternal second person of God is being promoted and re - located, re – positioned as pre – existing and simply is relocating himself to exist " ON " or “ AT “ - beside the right hand side of the throne of the father.


Please remember - Yahoshua says three things here about his identity.

i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT FOR FROM / OF - MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -


John 8:42
i COME OUT FROM THE GOD -
i COME NOT ALSO FROM / OF - MYSELF -
i COME NEITHER MYSELF I - SENT -


εγω I AM - γαρ FOR - εκ OUT / FROM - του THE - θεου GOD - εξηλθον CAME OUT -
και AND - ηκω COME - ουδε NOT - γαρ FOR - απ FROM / OF - εμαυτου MYSELF - εληλυθα I COME - αλλ NEITHER - εκεινος MYSELF - με I - απεστειλεν SENT.

Meaning -
Yahoshua was not a mere “ departing exiting FORM “ nor MORPH of his OWN pre - existence. - - Nor even a departed FORM or MORPH of his own self " himself. " as a separate pre-existing 2 nd person.

But
truly the Trinity is completely in contradiction - BECAUSE - Yahoshua defines the terms in His message - by saying that He does nothing of His own self - saying that I can do nothing whatsoever of my own doing. - I do not have any power of miracles, of my own " I do not have a will of my own - I CANNOT DO anything, whatsoever - OF MY OWN ... Saying that it is the father only, that does the miracles and the works.

He has no power, no control, no miracles, no knowledge and there is no good, no honor, and no GOOD REPUTATION in Him. - as a distinct, separate individual CO EQUAL or CO ETERNAL SEPARATED DEITY OR PERSON.

Saying - why do you call me " good " ? -- " There is NO ONE good but God alone " - -


Every time He spoke of his own will, power, majesty and desire and purpose " We find that He denied the trinity doctrine- Yet at the same time, he and the scriptures declare that He was God Himself - He was from heaven, and He PRE EXISTED / ORIGINATED - in the bosom of the father and EXITED from { out from } the bosom of the father to sit in the RIGHT of God, until God's enemies are a footstool..

He came OUT of God's spirit and returns back to God's spirit - to sit IN the throne of GOD..... - because this is his spirit – The Holy Spirit - the only mediator.

The Word Made Flesh that will return back to sit
in the throne of the Father and of the Lamb.

in the manuscripts, Jesus is - NOT BEING REVEALED AND SENT TO EARTH SIMPLY JUST BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT HE HAS BEEN PROMOTED, ENDORSED, AND RE – POSITIONED TO MOVE AND CHANGE HIS SEAT IN HEAVEN TO DWELL ON / AT THE RIGHT HAND SIDE OF THE THRONE
But he is -
BEING REVEALED AND SENT TO EARTH - by the fact that he is exiting OUT of God
sit ex / OUT OF my right -

THE ONLY QUESTIONS I HAVE FOR TRINITARIANS - IS SIMPLY THIS.

IF - The Bible says He is to sit / dwell - “ IN “ the right or “ AT “ the right hand of God - UNTIL - UNTIL such and such a time. = Dwell here - UNTIL - this time comes

or

If he was to be there ‘ until ‘ such a such and such a time, this means he was not always there. And after such and such a time passes - where will he again return regarding his original place ? I honestly just do not see how Trinitarians can answer this question and I have never received an answer from anyone who holds to the Trinity faith.


My question is simply this- - - WHY IS YAHASHUA CHANGING / ALTERING and MODIFYING and ADJUSTING / MORPHING and LOWERING and DECREASING and REDUCING HIMSELF -

WHY IS YAHASHUA becoming empty / void and vacant of existing as EQUALLY God and SUDDENDLY SUDDENLY CHANGING HIMSELF TO BECOME A SERVANT OF GOD

WHY IS YAHASHUA SUDDENLY CHANGED AND ALTERED TO THE POINT THAT HE NO LONGER EXISTS TO BE EQUAL TO GOD.

BUT HIMSELF, HE HAS SUDDENLY BECAME EMPTY
/ changed altered BECOME VOID OF EQUALITY TO GOD

CHANGING INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM THAT WHICH HE PRE EXISTED = CHANGING INTO BECOMING A SERVANT

He is changed and lowered into - THE MORPH OF A SERVANT, RECEIVING IN THE LIKENESS OF MANKIND, HE BECAME.

IF – Yahashua lowered himself - emptied himself - he CHANGED and ALTERED HIMSELF - BECOMING A SERVANT OF GOD

WHY - would he be lowering himself - why would he be ALTERING AND CHANGING HIMSELF TO BE CHANGED INTO A SERVANT OF GOD AND LESSER THAN GOD –
changing to becoming a servant and obedient to the father

If this is who and what he already was ?
The Trinitarian Jesus was always obedient, subservient, submissive, controlled and commanded by his superior - the Father . why then is he changing himself ? emptying himself ? - being changed, altered and being made into this obedient servant, - why is he becoming what he already was -
this who and what this 2 nd person already existed as, in the Trinity doctrine.
 
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Speak Light

Getting Started
I am sorry for not making myself clear - in this website I have found that Trinitarians are very intelligent and sometimes I lack to explain myself.

This is the summary of my question. simply according to the Translation

How is Jesus asking the Father to be returned back to his Fathers glory - glory of being given the highest glory possibly obtained, to be literally of being seated and positioned at / on the right hand side of the throne of the father,


given the highest name, a name above every name in heaven, given authority and power of all heaven and earth

How is this glory - the same glory that Jesus possesses with the father before the earth was created ?

If the only born son of God was only a prophetic plan of God.

I hope i am not pulling the wrong finger
 

Willy

Pro Poster
Flesh humanity conception prophecy vs and spirit immortality.

The Mystery ... The Might God

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Colossians 2:1-4

1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.


Some things remain a mystery. It's O.K. to have an opinion on things, it is another to proclaim a viewpoint as more than that using viewpoints of other fallible creatures as proof you are right.
 

Speak Light

Getting Started
.
So very true - The complete mystery of God is even still yet unfinished.


Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since eternity,

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery, of God SHOULD BE FINISHED, - as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If the fellowship of Yahashua, the Anointing was hidden, was not revealed and kept secret

then how can trinitarians make claim that

Act 17:29 we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men every where to repent:

Am I wrong to explain that - there was no way possible for Old Testament believers to even know anything about the Godhead / trinity ?

This is a tremendous contradiction in the Trinitarian translation that is found everywhere.


ACT 17:29 - THE OFFSPRING THEREFORE WHO ARE OF GOD NOT SHOULD REGARD GOLD OR SILVER OR STONES ENGRAVED CRAFTS AND THE THOUGHTS OF MAN THE BRIMSTONE ARE THE SAME / SIMILAR / ALIKE.


γενος The offspring - ουν therefore - υπαρχοντες who are, - του of - Θεου God
- ουκ not - οφειλομεν should - νομιζειν regard - χρυσω gold - η or - αργυρω silver

- η or – λιθω stones - χαραγματι engraved - τεχνης crafts - και and -
ενθυμησεως the thoughts - ανθρωπου of man -

το the - θειον brimstone - ειναι are - ομοιον the same.


This reference can be found by going to any Greek manuscript - they all are the same exact, regarding ACT 17:29
Here is a link -
you will see the manuscript verse is exactly as I have translated and transmitted word for word exactly.
 
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Willy

Pro Poster
https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/interlinear-rev/tr/act/17/29/

God had winked at the pagan nations as He dealt with Israel ... now there is transition and He takes Gospel to the pagans ...


When I see a red sweater, that does not mean all of the light did not hit the sweater. All of the light hit the sweater but only the red light reflected back and made me aware of that red characteristic. The other parts of the light were there and simply passed through or were absorbed by the sweater …

Trinity is a tool that is abused, … light is light, while we see red, green, or blue, is more about what characteristic of the light displayed as opposed to there being a separate color working in harmony with other colors …
 

Speak Light

Getting Started

Thank you for the reply

The website you provided is simply a " King James Diagram " = ( TR • KJV ) in the way that the Church Of England had translated the passage. This is what the Strong's Concordance is -

A Greek layout of the manner in which the Church of England had translated the passage

οὖν ὑπάρχοντες γένος θεοῦ GOD ὀφείλομεν οὐκ νομίζειν τὸ θεῖον GODHEAD εἶναι ὅμοιον χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἀνθρώπου ἐνθυμήσεως

see the difference

This is the ORIGINAL GREEK manuscript layout, as I had provided previously

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same

Trinitarians simply have no manuscripts for their faith system.
The King James Version is not manuscripts of the Bible


what you have provided is a word for word Greek sentence structure for the way the Church of England had moved and shuffled and switched words around to render their faith system in ACT 17:29

The Original Manuscript is not written in the way that the King James has changed the passage, the James Strong Concordance only reflects exactly what is written out in the KJV and what the words mean to Trinitarians - word for word exactly as Trinitarians have in their Translation this has absolutely nothing to do with the manuscript.

This Greek word - θεῖον - brimstone, is used many times throughout the KJV - only single one time do the Trinitarians change it from - brimstone, into Godhead
in ACT 17:29

Trinitarians are making the claim that man everywhere had improperly worshiped the Godhead trinity, how was this possible,, for Old Testament believers to even know anything about the Godhead / trinity ? OR for anyone or Pagans - to even know anything about the Godhead / trinity ?


Trinitarians want us to believe that the pagans already received revelation that Jews had not received about the Godhead Trinity ?
 

Willy

Pro Poster

Thank you for the reply

Really ...?

The website you provided is simply a " King James Diagram " = ( TR • KJV ) in the way that the Church Of England had translated the passage. This is what the Strong's Concordance is -



Simply …? Really …?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance ( the hardcover that I used for 45 years weighed about 3 lbs.) is a tool, word definitions, an attempt to understand one language translated into another taking into account Hebrew and Greek grammar …


A Greek layout of the manner in which the Church of England had translated the passage

οὖν ὑπάρχοντες γένος θεοῦ GOD ὀφείλομεν οὐκ νομίζειν τὸ θεῖον GODHEAD εἶναι ὅμοιον χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἀνθρώπου ἐνθυμήσεως

see the difference


It's called English … the site I gave you is not a conspiracy to pervert scripture, if you had taken the time to explore it you would have seen that it also gives you the exact same Greek entity you posted.

There is a definite article associated with the word that is translated Godhead that differentiates it from the word God, brimstone etc. … I'm sure there was great debate at the time of translation as to what word to use


This is the ORIGINAL GREEK manuscript layout, as I had provided previously

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same

And here is the exact same thing when you hit the little button at the top of the page to assemble the words the way they are in the original Greek. Surprise, surprise, they are identicla to what you posted …

yours …

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same

theirs …

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου τὸ θεῖον εἶναι ὅμοιον


Trinitarians simply have no manuscripts for their faith system.
The King James Version is not manuscripts of the Bible

Please correct this false statement …

what you have provided is a word for word Greek sentence structure for the way the Church of England had moved and shuffled and switched words around to render their faith system in ACT 17:29

And this one …

The Original Manuscript is not written in the way that the King James has changed the passage, the James Strong Concordance only reflects exactly what is written out in the KJV and what the words mean to Trinitarians - word for word exactly as Trinitarians have in their Translation this has absolutely nothing to do with the manuscript.

And this one …

This Greek word - θεῖον - brimstone, is used many times throughout the KJV - only single one time do the Trinitarians change it from - brimstone, into Godhead in ACT 17:29

Only time the word is used with a definite article and is translated reflecting all that is known about God.

Trinitarians are making the claim that man everywhere had improperly worshiped the Godhead trinity, how was this possible,, for Old Testament believers to even know anything about the Godhead / trinity ? OR for anyone or Pagans - to even know anything about the Godhead / trinity ?

You don't like trinitarians … without these particular people we would not have an English translation

English translation plus printing press equals Bibles to the masses, otherwise we would all be under the pale of Roman Catholics, paying to have our sins forgiven as they read scripture in Latin only …


Trinitarians want us to believe that the pagans already received revelation that Jews had not received about the Godhead Trinity ?

You need to understand the pivotal role Israel plays in God's plan to bring salvation to the world, … it is through them, and there is a chronology to how this happens. God has highly favored Israel as they were the first pagan people to be brought out and introduced to God. Not a pleasant event out of the gate …

You need to discover the chronology of God's plan and that is sealed. Deal with God and He may open that to you. I can only do that for you, I can not open it for you …

God opens or keeps closed, His word is His Sword and He must wield it …
 

Speak Light

Getting Started
Thank you

I will attempt to kindly and respectfully explain what I was trying to explain previously - here is the proof in a greater scope.


γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same


ACT 17-29 Greek  a.jpg
original Greek

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same

ACT 17-29 Greek  b.jpg
Original Greek

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same

ACT 17-29 Greek  c.jpg
original Greek

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same


ACT 17-29 Greek  e.jpg
original Greek

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same


ACT 17-29 Greek  f.jpg
Original Greek

γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same


Go to any original Greek Manuscript on the planet - the examples above are all the same Greek message - of all Greek manuscripts.

This example below is the - King James Strong Concordance - and how Trinitarians have taken the original Greek sentence and shuffled and switched around the words to remove these words and place these last three words into the beginning of the sentence.

There is no Greek manuscript anywhere on the entire planet that represents the King James Strong Concordance

what you provided was a KJV Translation that matches up Greek words with the Translation - in the way the translation was altered

You simply have no manuscripts for this faith - they do not exist - nor will you ever provide any manuscripts of the ORIGINAL GREEK - the translation that places and moves and switches and shuffles Greek words to reflect what the translations says -

This is not a manuscript of the Bible, this is a Trinitarian alteration that removes the original message and replaces it with a Trinitarian message.





Here is your Strong Concordance that represents the Trinitarian KJV - notice that this is completely different from all examples I have provided above and different from every single Greek manuscript on the entire planet.


ACT 17-29 KJV STRONGS.jpg


γένος οὖν ὑπάρχοντες τοῦ θεοῦ GOD οὐκ ὀφείλομεν νομίζειν χρυσῷ ἢ ἀργύρῳ ἢ λίθῳ χαράγματι τέχνης καὶ ἐνθυμήσεως ἀνθρώπου - the τὸ - θεῖον BRIMSTONE - εἶναι are - ὅμοιον the same

Can you provide original Greek MANUSCRIPT message that reflects this Acts 27:29


no, you cannot - Trinitarians are not able to provide any manuscripts for their faith system.

The KJV Strong Concordance , ONLY reflects the WORDING ORDER in the way for which the manuscripts have been translated and worded - and do not represent the order or message of the Original Greek in any way whatsoever .. This is why none of the Greek manuscripts words match up to the example you provide from the concordance of the KJV translation.
 

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Speak Light

Getting Started
What does my feelings about Trinitarians whom I deeply love have a single thing to do with the facts ?
I love Trinitarians very much. But this love does not lead me to pretend that the translation has not been purposefully and deliberately altered.

I prove my love by telling and proving the truth.
 

Willy

Pro Poster
What does my feelings about Trinitarians whom I deeply love have a single thing to do with the facts ?
I love Trinitarians very much. But this love does not lead me to pretend that the translation has not been purposefully and deliberately altered.

I prove my love by telling and proving the truth.

Το ελληνικό κείμενο έχει μεταφραστεί σκόπιμα στα αγγλικά ...

:hmm:
 

Speak Light

Getting Started
.
To translate only some of the words correctly and honestly is not providing translation for a book.

I give as sources - every single Greek manuscript the planet that exist, there are no other sources -

THE MANUSCRIPTS ARE THE SOURCES. Trinitarians have no sources, no manuscripts.
Taking a sentence and moving and switching words around to move the last three words back to the beginning of a sentence and then taking the Greek word '" θειον = THEION " '" θειον = THEION " and pretending it means DIVINE or GOD- HEAD


The Greek word for “ GOD “ is - θεου = THEOS -

The Greek word for “ BRIMSTONE “ is -
θειον = THEION

θεου = God.
θειον = Brimstone

always in the manuscript and translation

This Greek word -
θειον = Brimstone - is used 10 total times in the NT

10 total times in the NT .. . . . .
θειον = Brimstone


ACT 17:29 - THE OFFSPRING THEREFORE WHO ARE OF GOD NOT SHOULD REGARD GOLD OR SILVER OR STONES ENGRAVED CRAFTS AND THE THOUGHTS OF MAN

THE -
θειον = THEION …BRIMSTONE - ARE THE SAME


Luk 17:29 - it rained fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 9:17 - fire and smoke and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 21:8 - lake which burneth with fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 20:10 - cast into the lake of fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 19:20 - a lake of fire burning with - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 9:18 - the smoke, and by the - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev_20:10 - the lake of fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev_19:20 - a lake of fire burning with - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev_14:10 - tormented with fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…

Just because, the pagans worshiped the " θειον " / Brimstone, as their literal Gods upon their altars and images, trinitarians think that this validates to pretend that this Greek word means Godhead.

γενος The offspring - ουν therefore - υπαρχοντες who are, - του of - Θεου God

-
ουκ not - οφειλομεν should - νομιζειν regard - χρυσω gold - η or - αργυρω silver

- η or – λιθω stones - χαραγματι engraved - τεχνης crafts - και and -

ενθυμησεως the thoughts - ανθρωπου of man - το the - θειον brimstone - ειναι are - ομοιον the same.

only one single time do Trinitarians change the word θειον - THEION, brimstone - into the word Godhead,

all of the other instances where this word is used, it is always translated as Brimstone -

only in ACT 17:29 - all other instances the Trinitarians translate the word correctly.

And as the Trinitarian source proves from the very KJV strongs concordance that you provided -

the words are completely switched around and moved and altered and moved around to change the message of the original Greek message.

The bible manuscripts will never be considered as sources for the Trinitarian -


this is why Trinitarians waited nearly 2000 years, just to produce a Bible into a modern language - there is nothing in the manuscript that represents the Trinitarian Faith System.
 
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Willy

Pro Poster
.
To translate only some of the words correctly and honestly is not providing translation for a book.

I give as sources - every single Greek manuscript the planet that exist, there are no other sources -


THE MANUSCRIPTS ARE THE SOURCES. Trinitarians have no sources, no manuscripts.
Taking a sentence and moving and switching words around to move the last three words back to the beginning of a sentence and then taking the Greek word '" θειον = THEION " '" θειον = THEION " and pretending it means DIVINE or GOD- HEAD


The Greek word for “ GOD “ is - θεου = THEOS -

The Greek word for “ BRIMSTONE “ is -
θειον = THEION

θεου = God.
θειον = Brimstone

always in the manuscript and translation

This Greek word -
θειον = Brimstone - is used 10 total times in the NT

10 total times in the NT .. . . . .
θειον = Brimstone


ACT 17:29 - THE OFFSPRING THEREFORE WHO ARE OF GOD NOT SHOULD REGARD GOLD OR SILVER OR STONES ENGRAVED CRAFTS AND THE THOUGHTS OF MAN

THE -
θειον = THEION …BRIMSTONE - ARE THE SAME



Luk 17:29 - it rained fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 9:17 - fire and smoke and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 21:8 - lake which burneth with fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 20:10 - cast into the lake of fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 19:20 - a lake of fire burning with - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev 9:18 - the smoke, and by the - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev_20:10 - the lake of fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev_19:20 - a lake of fire burning with - θειον = THEION brimstone…
Rev_14:10 - tormented with fire and - θειον = THEION brimstone…

Just because, the pagans worshiped the " θειον " / Brimstone, as their literal Gods upon their altars and images, trinitarians think that this validates to pretend that this Greek word means Godhead.

γενος The offspring - ουν therefore - υπαρχοντες who are, - του of - Θεου God

-
ουκ not - οφειλομεν should - νομιζειν regard - χρυσω gold - η or - αργυρω silver


- η or – λιθω stones - χαραγματι engraved - τεχνης crafts - και and -

ενθυμησεως the thoughts - ανθρωπου of man - το the - θειον brimstone - ειναι are - ομοιον the same.


only one single time do Trinitarians change the word θειον - THEION, brimstone - into the word Godhead,

all of the other instances where this word is used, it is always translated as Brimstone -

only in ACT 17:29 - all other instances the Trinitarians translate the word correctly.

And as the Trinitarian source proves from the very KJV strongs concordance that you provided -

the words are completely switched around and moved and altered and moved around to change the message of the original Greek message.

The bible manuscripts will never be considered as sources for the Trinitarian -


this is why Trinitarians waited nearly 2000 years, just to produce a Bible into a modern language - there is nothing in the manuscript that represents the Trinitarian Faith System.

Since the pagans fight amongst themselves along the same lines concerning the RT, I see no reason why you shouldn't do the same thing, … so, … knock yourself out … kick the can, … or whatever they say where you're from …

:tiphat:
 

Speak Light

Getting Started
;

I would not want to fight or argue with Trinitarians but rather it believe that Trinitarians are unable to communicate


about anything outside of a Roman Catholic perspective - in essence the entire Protestant religious system is a DUPLICATE copy - cat of the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants have simply taken what they do not like nor agree with, and simply make the necessary changes in their Translations - in other words, everything else remains the same as the Catholic Faith System - the Church Of England did not have concern to fix or correct anything outside of the material relating to " Eucharist, Idols and Mary "

They left 99% of the rest of the translation exactly the same. Are we to believe that Roman Catholics ONLY altered and changed the Bible in the matters relating to " Eucharist, Idols and Mary " and altered nothing more ?

This is exactly what Protestants are saying their their Copy - Cat Translations.


I would like to have an honest discussion about the original message of the manuscripts and I am thankful for the Trinitarians here who always have been kind and open about their faith.

The Translation - is the Entirety of The Trinitarian Faith System. I could provide pages upon pages of examples of “ TRINITARIAN FAITH SYSTEM “ but the problem is it takes lengthy and complete evidence to demonstrate.


For example - The Trinitarian Faith System teaches the following

Trinitarian System - Exo 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. :21 Notwithstanding, IF HE CONTINUE A DAY OR TWO, HE SHALL NOT BE PUNISHED: FOR HE IS HIS MONEY.

The Trinitarian Translators indeed make it sound like that the MANUSCRIPTS are actually saying that SOMEONE is allowed to beat their slave to death - JUST SO LONG AS IT TAKES LONGER THAN A DAY FOR THE DEATH

But when we look at the Hebrew manuscripts, this is not at all the message - here is exactly word for word the exact message in the manuscript.


Exo 21:20 וכי FOR - יכה STRIKING - אישׁ A MAN - את HIMSELF - עבדו A SERVANT - או OR - את HIMSELF - אמתו A MAID - בשׁבט WITH A ROD - ומת AND DIES - תחת UNDER - ידו HIS HAND - נקם AVENGE - ינקם׃ THIS VENGANCE

:21 אך BUT - אם IF - יום A DAY - או OR - יומים TWO DAYS - יעמד HE RISE - לא NOT - יקם AVENGE / ESTABLISH - כי THAT - כספו HIS MONEY - הוא׃ IS HIS

In fact - the manuscripts are saying that if a worker is hurt because he is being abused by his boss and become injured for just a brief day or two - and is unable to work, the boss is obligated and Commanded
To Pay The Worker The Wages For The Days He Is Unable To Work.

This is exactly what the manuscripts are saying - word for word……. Exo 21:20 FOR STRIKING A MAN HIMSELF A SERVANT OR HIMSELF A MAID WITH A ROD AND DIES UNDER HIS HAND AVENGE THIS VENGANCE

:21 BUT IF A DAY OR TWO DAYS HE RISE NOT, AVENGE / ESTABLISH THAT HIS MONEY IS HIS

The previous verses above are saying the exact SAME message - confirming the same
exact EXAMPLE referring to two men who are fighting among one another and one of the men becomes injured.

Exo 21:18 And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed: :19 If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him - ………. ……… HE SHALL PAY FOR THE LOSS OF HIS TIME, AND SHALL CAUSE HIM TO BE THOROUGHLY HEALED.

And then the very next :21
- - - is referring to A BOSS injuring his worker - AGAIN explaining - IF A DAY OR TWO DAYS HE RISE NOT, AVENGE / ESTABLISH THAT HIS MONEY IS HIS

To establish that the workers money and wages are paid to him -
the worker - who was unable to work BECAUSE HIS BOSS INJURED HIM. The Trinitarians twist the passage to say that SOMEONE is allowed to beat their worker to death -
AND IT IS ALL OK - JUST AS LONG AS THE WORKER DIES A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH OVER THE COURSE OF A DURATION OF A FEW DAYS -

if it takes TWO DAYS FOR THE WORKER TO SLOWLY DIE
- THEN THE BOSS HAS NO LIABILITY - nor responsibility for killing and murdering his worker.

these type of altered and mistranslated passages are everywhere through the entire translation in thousands of places - because these type of misrepresentations are the core and foundation of the Trinitarian Faith System.
 
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