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Is belief in the Trinity necessary for salvation?

Willy

Pro Poster
There has always been three persons in a unity of One God. Jesus is not God, He is the flesh that the second person of the Trinity inhabits.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Revelation 1:7-8

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member

As the article explains Jesus existed as a prophetic promise, as a type and other examples in the Old Testament. He did not exist as flesh until the incarnation. The name of the second person of God is not Jesus.

Jesus is the flesh in which the second person took up residence at the incarnation.

Sometimes the New Testament talks about the human Jesus. Other times it talks about the second person of God within Jesus, his spirit.

God could not die, but the flesh he indwells could.

As with us our flesh and our spirit are separate and different. Born again is the cleansing of our spirit, but our flesh is still sinful. Glorified flesh is different than the flesh we now live in. Our flesh can be injured or die. Our spirit cannot.

The Hebrew concept says to make a promise that is absolutely sure to come about is the same thing as already existing. But it is still a promise yet to happen. That confuses people regarding Jesus Christ.
 
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Willy

Pro Poster

As the article explains Jesus existed as a prophetic promise, as a type and other examples in the Old Testament. He did not exist as flesh until the incarnation. The name of the second person of God is not Jesus.

Jesus is the flesh in which the second person took up residence at the incarnation.

Sometimes the New Testament talks about the human Jesus. Other times it talks about the second person of God within Jesus, his spirit.

God could not die, but the flesh he indwells could.

As with us our flesh and our spirit are separate and different. Born again is the cleansing of our spirit, but our flesh is still sinful. Glorified flesh is different than the flesh we now live in. Our flesh can be injured or die. Our spirit cannot.

The Hebrew concept says to make a promise that is absolutely sure to come about is the same thing as already existing. But it is still a promise yet to happen. That confuses people regarding Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus says concerning Himself,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

I'll go with what He says …
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member

As the article explains Jesus existed as a prophetic promise, as a type and other examples in the Old Testament. He did not exist as flesh until the incarnation. The name of the second person of God is not Jesus.

Jesus is the flesh in which the second person took up residence at the incarnation.

Sometimes the New Testament talks about the human Jesus. Other times it talks about the second person of God within Jesus, his spirit.

God could not die, but the flesh he indwells could.

As with us our flesh and our spirit are separate and different. Born again is the cleansing of our spirit, but our flesh is still sinful. Glorified flesh is different than the flesh we now live in. Our flesh can be injured or die. Our spirit cannot.

The Hebrew concept says to make a promise that is absolutely sure to come about is the same thing as already existing. But it is still a promise yet to happen. That confuses people regarding Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus says concerning Himself,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

I'll go with what He says …
So you're saying the flesh of Jesus Christ is part of the Godhead/Trinity and God died on the cross.

You're saying Mary is the mother of God and the father is the father of the second person of the Godhead. That he had a beginning.

I am saying the second person of the Trinity is God in unity with the first and third person. I am saying that the three are a singular God, Elohim. I am saying they have no beginning and no end. They have no father or mother, they just always were. I am saying the Godhead is spirit, having no flesh.

Per the Hebrew language something promised that has total surety is spoken of as already existing. That is the biblical understanding of Jesus.

Please clarify your understanding. Define your understanding of the Godhead in the Old Testament understanding and the New Testament understanding. Define why the Bible does name each person of the Trinity according to their purposes and not according to their actual existence.

Jesus Christ being the son of God means he had a beginning and the father created him. Just as Adam was called the son of God because God created him.
 

Willy

Pro Poster
He said it … debate Him …

I'll go with what He says …

The Lord Jesus says concerning Himself,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
He said it … debate Him …

I'll go with what He says …

The Lord Jesus says concerning Himself,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
A question then. Was the flesh of Jesus Christ God? Or just the spirit that entered the flesh of Jesus Christ to make a complete human being of spirit, flesh and soul?

Can God die?

 
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Willy

Pro Poster
He said it … debate Him …

I'll go with what He says …

The Lord Jesus says concerning Himself,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
A question then. Was the flesh of Jesus Christ God? Or just the spirit that entered the flesh of Jesus Christ to make a complete human being of spirit, flesh and soul?

Can God die?



You need to ask God that question …


Matthew 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member

The Bible clearly teaches humans have two natures once they're born again.

It also teaches Jesus Christ has two natures.

The flesh nature can perish. The spiritual nature cannot.

How you reconcile the flesh nature and spiritual nature of Jesus Christ you will have to determine for yourself. We do not agree on how the Bible reconciles. But we are both born again through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the acceptance of the father of the offering made by the son of God. We are spiritual sons of God and brothers of Christ. You are my friend.

So I will end our discussion and the full truth will be seen in eternity.
 

Willy

Pro Poster
He said it … debate Him …

I'll go with what He says …

The Lord Jesus says concerning Himself,

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
Please clarify one point. The spirit of Jesus Christ is eternally God, the Alpha and the Omega. Are you claiming his flesh was also eternal?
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
 

Willy

Pro Poster
Please clarify one point. The spirit of Jesus Christ is eternally God, the Alpha and the Omega. Are you claiming his flesh was also eternal?

Revelation 22

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

I Jesus …
 

Willy

Pro Poster
God did not create His Son, He begat Him, He did not begat us, we are adopted …

God passed on His characteristics to His “only begotten Son,”....

One characteristic is timeless existence forward and backward.

Resulting in, “Before Abraham was,” … “I AM” …

Timeless existence is a characteristic of His (The Lord Jesus) lineage from (to) His Father's side of the family.
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
I guess the differences we have is that you see the spirit and flesh of Jesus Christ as a singular nature and existence.

Whereas I see the spirit of Jesus being the eternal second person of the Godhead that is totally equal to the father and Holy Spirit, not begotten. The flesh of Jesus is the vessel that contains the second person of the Trinity.

Exactly as the Bible says our flesh is an earthen vessel containing our eternal spirits. The flesh has nature, the spirit has nature, separate but working in unity via our souls. The spirit being eternal while the flesh and soul can perish. Thus why Jesus Christ died and descended to paradise in spirit with his flesh in the grave. Then resurrected in the flesh where her spirit returned. As with the rapture the flesh rises from the grave and Jesus leads the spirits back to their flesh and glorifies them.

It gets back to the simple fact in eternity our born-again spirits will live in glorifies flesh.
 

Willy

Pro Poster
As you well know, I know His parts … I am saying His flesh as well because His father is God (begotten of God), ... is timeless. I'm saying you have no right to break him into pieces, … the whole child was (is) God's only begotten Son.

I worry about you … as a friend … you seek to divide what God has joined together …
 

Willy

Pro Poster

From your article …

The only way to adequately explain the biblical data is to say that Jesus is one Person with two natures—a human nature and a divine nature. He is both God and Man. His two natures are inseparably united (not mixed) in what theologians term the “hypostatic union.” The New Testament affirms that Jesus Christ, who walked the earth, died on a cross, and rose again, was fully a member of the human race with a fully functioning human nature (without sin). At the same time, Jesus was fully God. He willingly humbled Himself and gave up His glory and the right to use His divine attributes apart from the direction of God the Father, but He never ceased to be God. Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God—He has the nature of both. He is a man, but He is more; He is also God. He is God, but He has forever joined Himself to a human nature. A shortened way to express this is to refer to Jesus as the God-Man. He is the Man who is also God, and He is God who became a Man.

Jesus is the man … the complete man, ... fully man, fully God …

Whereas you say, “There has always been three persons in a unity of One God.” “Jesus is not God, He is the flesh that the second person of the Trinity inhabits.”
 

CoreIssue

Administrator
Staff member
You are misinterpreting what I said. In summary I said:
The second person of the Trinity is equally God with the father and the son. The Godhead is composed of three persons.

Before the incarnation in John 1 Jesus existed as prophetic promise, not the second person of the Trinity.

At the incarnation the Holy Spirit at the command of the first person of the Trinity caused a sexless impregnation of Mary.

The second person of the Trinity indwelt that spiritless flesh to become the spirit of Jesus.

Jesus and the second person of the Trinity became a complete human like you and me possessing a spirit, soul and body. One person with two natures.

The Bible makes it clear our spirit and body are at war with each other. Not separate persons, but separate natures working in unity known as our soul.

When we die that unity ceases. Our spirit processes while our flesh and soul are dead.

When born again our spirits are cleansed but are flesh is not.

In the rapture our bodies are resurrected and glorified. Our spirits return to our bodies. Thus the unity of flesh and spirit is reestablished by our souls.

The same was true with Jesus Christ on this earth. The difference being his spirit and flesh were never sinful.

To be our sacrifice Jesus had to live as fully man. He had to be able to die. He was the second Adam, a flesh and blood human made of dirt. The second person of the Trinity could not die, had no flesh and was not the son of the father.

The spirit of Jesus Christ was the second person of the Trinity, the Word. The Word that was with God and was God.
John was quite clear, Jesus Christ the flesh was not the word. He was what the word became.

Being fully man Jesus Christ was the promise of the Old Testament prophecies. Prophecies that became real at the incarnation.

Being fully God and the Word he was with God and was God.

The flesh of Jesus Christ is not the Alpha. It did not exist until the incarnation.

His spirit is fully God. His flesh is fully man. A unity of two natures, not a merger of two persons.

Your error is that even in you quotes they were all referring to the incarnation and after. You are trying to push them into eternity past before the incarnation.
 
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Willy

Pro Poster
You make a distinction that Jesus Himself does not make … stop it …

I take the Bible literally …

He does not say, “that part of me that is God is the Alpha and the Omega” … He says , “I Jesus am the Alpha and the Omega”

So, again, I will go with what He says …
 
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