ALL Jesus believers are deluded! [Archive]

Composer

01-02-2010, 11:32 PM

Hello all,

Just to let you all know a number of facts.

1. I am a Male and was once a member of the Christ Adelphians (CA's) and I have studied and reasonably familiar to various degrees with most well known - main stream religious institutions. (e.g. Mormons, J.w's, SDA's, Born again evangelicals, Islam, trinitarians)

2. I left for a number of reasons including threats of physical violence against me by two arranging brethren in particular, if I dared challenge their beliefs in their ecclesia (meeting place).

3. After I left them, I wrote my reasons in a Resignation Letter, which they refused to read out to the congregation and instead they lied as to my reasons for leaving. (Other members sympathetic to me told me but they wouldn't openly support me for fear of being disfellowshipped)

4. I have tried to have reasonable discussions at the 3 Online Christ Adelphian Forums I know of.

I have been banned from two already (more lies given against me as their excuses why) and even at the last Forum I currently still have access to, I have been placed on Moderation and any thing they don't like because it tears their beliefs apart, has occasionaly been deleted or edited and some times they have inferred I never responded at all.

5. These people expect to become rulers as Kings & Priests in their new Kingdom? - what a frightening thought!

6. A Certain member and CA moderator in particular (User name currently witheld) also reveals PM's (Private messages) without your permission, so PM's are not Private at all and he will find any excuse to use them or any thing you say to ban you or curtail your input if you dare challenge him or the CA's. (So be careful IF you are allowed to venture there.)

I have studied the bible for about 50 years and concluded (albeit disappointedly) that it is NOT (the bulk of it) to be entirely trusted. (Hopefully my contributions here will demonstrate and compliment other evidences shown here, why it is NOT to be entirely trusted?)

I like to discuss biblical topics and also share my personal experiences so readers and biblical students may take advantage and be better informed when they make their own decisions.

I am also a semi-retired Composer (of Music)

I do however still believe in an intelligent designer I call God but I have NO religious barrow to push nor do I embrace any Religion as such.

Out of interest for those asking about my Music I have some samples at the following Link -

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=635228 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=635228)

Yes some are spiritual from my earlier times when I was more inclined to create such works.

I DO believe in an Intelligent Designer I refer to as God, however I prove tirelessly and repeatedly that the biblical God and Jesus are frauds and Christianity is based upon lies, especially trinitarian christianity.

Although I DO believe in an Intelligent Designer - ' God ', I do so with no tangible evidence except from the things I see of myself and all around me.

However, although I have great respect for the wonders around me created by this God, I have absolutely NO respect for it as a ' God of Love ' as portrayed in the bible and I say that because of the misery and suffering and inequality I see around me and this alleged God of Love allowing it to proliferate for thousands of years.

IF I ever get to meet up with this God I believe does exist, I may well be given its reasons, but however profound they may be, I am meanwhile disgusted by this ' God of supposed Love ' and when even one single person suffers for no fault of their own, this God's reasons pale in to insignificance in my estimation; especially considering the following claim of this biblical God that the innocent will never be punished and / or killed - (Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: . . . . (Ex. 23:7) KJV)

No small wonder why others rightly claim to be ' More moral than God! "

I am not sure if this Forum is capable of amicably discussing after hearing what I have to say without resorting to personal slander against me or banning me after realising your current ideology is exposed as fraudulent. Time will tell!

Jessie

01-02-2010, 11:47 PM

well our ideology is'nt fraudulent.

have you read the bible?

God is a God of love. but also of justice.
this is not heaven its a fallen world.

lets put responsility where it belongs on mankind. sin that creates the misery.
also, considering eternity, hell is a place one does'nt want to go....
God is patient not willing to lose one to that awful place.

you sound agnostic. is that correct?

Composer

01-02-2010, 11:57 PM

well our ideology is'nt fraudulent.
That remains to be seen and I have successfully proved it is fraudulent for about 50 years now.

have you read the bible?
Reading it and making correct conclusions are different matters, hence the discussions.

God is a God of love. but also of justice.
I disagree based upon even a cursory reading of this story book bible text. e.g.

This story book God saves Isaac but was no where to be seen to save poor Abel nor save the innocent babes it is said Herod had slaughtered (Matt. 2:16) KJV story book but according to trinitarian ideology had all the hypocrytical time to save another alleged part of itself (the trinitarian alleged 3rd person, the babe Jesus).

this is not heaven its a fallen world.
Alleged Heaven going for all believers is another Thread and another furphie (tall tale/lie)

lets put responsility where it belongs on mankind. sin that creates the misery.
also, considering eternity, hell is a place one does'nt want to go....
God is patient not willing to lose one to that awful place.
Hmm! didn't your story book Jesus go there? (Acts 2:31) KJV story book.

you sound agnostic. is that correct?
There are so many variations, what do you mean by it. I thought my opening statement made my position clear?

Thanks for your time so far!

Jessie

01-03-2010, 01:59 AM

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked

where does that say that the innocent would never be punished or killed?

Composer

01-03-2010, 02:04 AM

Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked

where does that say that the innocent would never be punished or killed?
Right there before you?

. . . . the innocent and righteous slay thou not: . . . .

I mean, do you really consider the babes under two years of age your hypocrytical God allowed to be slaughtered whilst allegedly protecting its own were actually guilty of sin? (Matt. 2:16) KJV story book.

Jessie

01-03-2010, 02:18 AM

you are using a scripture that has nothing to do with the latter.
thats what I'm getting at.

again, put responsiblity where it belongs in that case on herod.
I'm not hearing anything about him.....

Composer

01-03-2010, 02:23 AM

you are using a scripture that has nothing to do with the latter.
thats what I'm getting at.

again, put responsiblity where it belongs in that case on herod.
I'm not hearing anything about him.....
Your mythical God saved Isaac and allegedly its other trinitarian self as a babe but was no where to be seen to save those infants and Abel.

Yes let's put responsibility where it truly belongs.

Your God is a hypocrite.

Willy

01-03-2010, 06:46 AM

Hello all,

I have studied the bible for about 50 years and concluded (albeit disappointedly) that it is NOT (the bulk of it) to be entirely trusted. (Hopefully my contributions here will demonstrate and compliment other evidences shown here, why it is NOT to be entirely trusted?)

IF I ever get to meet up with this God I believe does exist, I may well be given its reasons, but however profound they may be, I am meanwhile disgusted by this ' God of supposed Love ' and when even one single person suffers for no fault of their own, this God's reasons pale in to insignificance in my estimation; especially considering the following claim of this biblical God that the innocent will never be punished and / or killed - (Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: . . . . (Ex. 23:7) KJV)

We can deal with one thing right out of the gate, ... Anyone who has studied the Scriptures for fifty years should know, as Jessie has pointed out, you do not give fragments of verses to argue your position. The fact you did not include the whole verse or surrounding verses to set context does not show well for your study habits. We can fix that.

Exodus 23:1-9

1 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness.

2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd,

3 and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit.

4 “If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him.

5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.

6 “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits.

7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

8 “Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous.

9 “Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt. NIV
I like the KJV for verse 9 as I relate better to "strangers" than I do to "aliens".

stranger … 1) sojourner a) a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights

9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. KJV
Right now, you are the stranger in verse 9 . All here have been where you are, although most, with a little less attitude.

Please stay and debate, but with a level of respect. Everyone here is more than open to discuss any issues you have.

I listened to all of your songs and like the last two the most, especially the last one "pride". It is not what I expected. If there is pride in the song, it is tempered with humility. At least that is what it expressed to me. :nod:

There is a lot of hurt and anger in your posts and that is O.K. if tempered with just a hint of humility. :nod:

You are carrying a lot of CA baggage although I would be curious to know the doctrinal disputes you had with them.

I went through similar with a different group, so maybe in one small area we share something. Also, am not a fan of most, if not all denominations.

Willy:tiphat:

Composer

01-03-2010, 07:45 AM

Hello all,

I have studied the bible for about 50 years and concluded (albeit disappointedly) that it is NOT (the bulk of it) to be entirely trusted. (Hopefully my contributions here will demonstrate and compliment other evidences shown here, why it is NOT to be entirely trusted?)

IF I ever get to meet up with this God I believe does exist, I may well be given its reasons, but however profound they may be, I am meanwhile disgusted by this ' God of supposed Love ' and when even one single person suffers for no fault of their own, this God's reasons pale in to insignificance in my estimation; especially considering the following claim of this biblical God that the innocent will never be punished and / or killed - (Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: . . . . (Ex. 23:7) KJV)

We can deal with one thing right out of the gate, ... Anyone who has studied the Scriptures for fifty years should know, as Jessie has pointed out, you do not give fragments of verses to argue your position. The fact you did not include the whole verse or surrounding verses to set context does not show well for your study habits.
I don't post pages of propaganda like you I get down to the facts straight away and nothing you posted changes anything my short extract didn't explain fully by itself.

We can fix that.
Your false claims only prove you haven't fixed any thing for yourself but have the audacity to want to fix the Truth I bring.

[QUOTE] Exodus 23:1-9

1 “Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness.

2 “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd,

3 and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit.

4 “If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him.

5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.

6 “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits.

7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.

8 “Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous.

9 “Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt. NIV
I like the KJV for verse 9 as I relate better to "strangers" than I do to "aliens".

stranger … 1) sojourner a) a temporary inhabitant, a newcomer lacking inherited rights

9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. KJV
Right now, you are the stranger in verse 9 . All here have been where you are, although most, with a little less attitude.
You are as much a personal stranger to me as I to you but your failed ideologies I am most familiar.

Please stay and debate, but with a level of respect. Everyone here is more than open to discuss any issues you have.
Why do you consider my Truth bringing as a lack of respect?

I am simply stating the Truth and you get on your high horse?

I see you can't handle a challenge and demonstrates to me immediately the weakness of your current cause.

I listened to all of your songs and like the last two the most, especially the last one "pride". It is not what I expected. If there is pride in the song, it is tempered with humility. At least that is what it expressed to me.
Music brings out various emotions in the listener. That's one of the main points of Music.

There is a lot of hurt and anger in your posts and that is O.K. if tempered with just a hint of humility.
I am hurt that people are sop gullible as to put faith in a spurious story book and then try and enforce that garbage on others by personal insults, slander, banning but at least not as violent as the early trinitarian church that brought torture or death by burning alive all in the name of their ' trinitarian god of love ' (LOL!)

You are carrying a lot of CA baggage although I would be curious to know the doctrinal disputes you had with them.[/quot
What alleged baggage are you guessing at?

[QUOTE=Willy;38914]I went through similar with a different group, so maybe in one small area we share something. Also, am not a fan of most, if not all denominations.

Willy:tiphat:

I am a fan of NO religions and in fact I have a fifty year career of successful Relgion busting, especially so called bible based ones.

I shall in my following post demonstrate why this Jesus is an absolute fraud -

Thank you for your contribution so far!

Composer

01-03-2010, 07:50 AM

The earliest Orthodox Jews (Pharisees & Sadducees) recognised from their TORAH (First 5 books of the bible), the fraudulent claims of this biblical Jesus.

The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.

But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another.

In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)

cf. Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 (file:///C:/scriptural_data/jesus_the_biblical_fraud/deu24_notes.htm#note24) do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET

This was later confirmed by -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html))

More so -
Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.

IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/)) - What Jews believe Point 5.)

As it turned out therefore, the biblical text unambiguously proves that the Pharisees and Sadducees were correct and this biblical Jesus rightly recognised as a fraud.

a.baker

01-03-2010, 10:06 AM

When you take the Bible, the OT with the NT, the religions you mentioned in your first post don't test or hold up. So because a religion or denomination wants to claim to be Christian doesn't necessarily hold true when tested to the Word.

Your hurt and anger does show through as if your in attack mode, ready to launch but not listen, maybe you feel the war and are not ready to take another hit, whatever side you reside. But the war is alive. Just because you want to say god with a capitol G doesn't mean your referring to the high Almighty, and just because you say Jesus doesn't mean your not referring to one of the many AC's like in the Mormon religion.

We here will listen and will be ready to help you understand in any way but your not going to change us. God has already changed us and proves to be alive, we have the Truth. So if your here to try to change us and not listen it will get old fast. Opinions fine but preaching; no; just giving a heads up.

You seem to want help but your anger gets in the way, how ever you see it, that's how so far I see it. Its not about you but about Him so humility is in need if you want to know Him.

Us here don't know or have faith in what we believe because it was pushed on us, we were raised that way or threatened; our testimonies are something to think about.

We chose because of freewill and God changed us all personally because of His compassion..... this is not for social standing or some 'out of this world' idea, true Christianity makes perfect sense because of His perfect wisdom and love and if you think its hypocritical its only because you don't understand and through pride are not willing to admit it.

InTheWind

01-03-2010, 10:36 AM

I don't post pages of propaganda like you I get down to the facts straight away and nothing you posted changes anything my short extract didn't explain fully by itself.

Composer you tone yourself down or you won`t be here by the end of the day :grr:
Like everyone said we are open to hearing what you have to say if it`s done in a polite reasonable manner, if you can`t do that and think you are above everyone here then make it less embarrassing on yourself and leave now on your own. ;)

a.baker

01-03-2010, 11:36 AM

In one sentence whats your purpose?

You know you claim to be Agnostic which in general description is one who believes a god exists but doesn't know who god is and basically thinks everyone has it wrong.... whats your proof you have it right... opinions are not proof. But yet you want to be specific in what type of Agnostic you are, god general, religion of unknowing specific; makes no sense to me.

Us Christians have something and you have nothing and want to convert us to nothingness?!... Also makes no sense to me. Us Christians help others to find a Savior and if that means nothing to you then you obviously feel your above, above whom and what and what do you gain? Your studies... and who says what you study is a reliable source?

Willy

01-03-2010, 02:22 PM

The earliest Orthodox Jews (Pharisees & Sadducees) recognised from their TORAH (First 5 books of the bible), the fraudulent claims of this biblical Jesus.

The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.

But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another.

In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)

cf. Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 (file:///C:/scriptural_data/jesus_the_biblical_fraud/deu24_notes.htm#note24) do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET

This was later confirmed by -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html))

More so -
Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.

IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/))- What Jews believe Point 5.)

As it turned out therefore, the biblical text unambiguously proves that the Pharisees and Sadducees were correct and this biblical Jesus rightly recognised as a fraud.

Ezekiel 18:20 – (the part you left out)

KJV: The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

NIV: The soul who sins is the one who will die.

RSV: The soul that sins shall die. :):

The whole verse:

Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

CoreIssue

01-03-2010, 02:30 PM

Hi Composer.

ITW is right. We will discuss issues with you but you have to be polite. There is no discussion and debate when right out of the gate you are personally attacking us.

So, you were a CA. Solidly a cult that reads the Bible non literally.

But now what I hear you saying is you are a Deist, which is ironic since there are no Holy Scriptures for Deists because Deists believe something did creation and now is a dispassionate observer. A very 'believe as you wish' religion.

Many even believe there is no such thing as eternal existence. Live, die and nothing more.

I totally disagree with your claims regarding God, Christ and the Bible.

Reading through all the issues brought up it is impossible to proceed with any meaningful discussion in this manner. Pick ONE issue and spell out what you believe and WHY, leaving out the personal and Christian attacks. We can proceed from there.

By the way, I have been studying the Bible and other religions for 48 years. As well related scientific research, etc. So just put the 50 year statements aside and so will I from my side. We negate that as any demand here.

We await your subject.

Composer

01-04-2010, 07:42 AM

The earliest Orthodox Jews (Pharisees & Sadducees) recognised from their TORAH (First 5 books of the bible), the fraudulent claims of this biblical Jesus.

The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.

But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another.

In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)

cf. Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 (file:///C:/scriptural_data/jesus_the_biblical_fraud/deu24_notes.htm#note24) do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET

This was later confirmed by -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html (http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html))

More so -
Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.

IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/))- What Jews believe Point 5.)

As it turned out therefore, the biblical text unambiguously proves that the Pharisees and Sadducees were correct and this biblical Jesus rightly recognised as a fraud.

Ezekiel 18:20 – (the part you left out)

KJV: The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

NIV: The soul who sins is the one who will die.

RSV: The soul that sins shall die. :):

The whole verse:

Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
I ' left it out ' because it doesn't affect the fact that the bible is self contradicting and not worth the paper it is written on!

Composer

01-04-2010, 07:50 AM

CoreIssue

01-04-2010, 11:58 AM

We await your subject.

Same subject matter -

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20) KJV

Oops!

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [ generation ] of them that hate me; (Exod. 20:5) KJV

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [ generation ] of them that hate me, (Deut. 5:9) KJV

ANY bible is NOT to be trusted and is unambiguously proven to be self contradicting!

:nod:
Easy.

The Father of Christ was God the Father. He had no sin to visit upon his son.

As well Christ never sinned so the soul that sins shall die had no application to him.

As well the son is not personally responsible for the sins of their father spiritually but as a family, nation, etc most assuredly is.

No one goes to Hell because of what your dad did. But, as with Israel, when it sinned as a nation to the point of God punishing them with invaders the sons did bear the sins of the father.

We all know that when a national mind set is in place it takes generations to change it, but within a person can change in almost immediately.

There is no contradiction here nor should it be a logic puzzle, Bible or not.

Further, as regards Christ dieing for us we are not talking personal sin but sin nature, that which drives us to sin. That most assuredly is past father to son stemming all the way back to Adam. But, Christ, being an heir or Adam via Mary didn't inherit that sin nature, so, as a co heir with all of Man could pay the family debt to God.

Composer

01-04-2010, 06:16 PM

We await your subject.

Same subject matter -

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezek. 18:20) KJV

Oops!

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [ generation ] of them that hate me; (Exod. 20:5) KJV

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [ generation ] of them that hate me, (Deut. 5:9) KJV

ANY bible is NOT to be trusted and is unambiguously proven to be self contradicting! :nod:

Easy.

The Father of Christ was God the Father.
You make so many errors I must start with them some where, so why not from your very first error here above!

Using the man made trinitarian formulation, accordingly, the angel declared that the literal Father of your story book Jesus was NOT this alleged God the Father ' person ' but actually your alleged God the Holy Spirit ' person '. -

The angel replied,112 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/luk1_notes.htm#note112) “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow113 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/luk1_notes.htm#note113) you. Therefore the child114 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/luk1_notes.htm#note114) to be born115 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/luk1_notes.htm#note115) will be holy;116 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/luk1_notes.htm#note116) he will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) NET

So your alleged Holy Spirit ' person ' is the story book literal Father of Jesus and Jesus is a liar claiming it was this ' God the Father ' person '.

Thanks for your comments all be they incorrect and NOT according to the biblical story book text!

CoreIssue

01-04-2010, 06:25 PM

Seems you are still a CA and not reading literally.

My comments are correct and Biblical. So obviously this conversation needs backed up to a more fundamental reality and discussion point, the Trinity.

Elohim with singulars means 3 or more in a unity of one. It does not mean the royal plural which was a European invention that came about far after the OT was written.

The uniplural is a basic part of the old Hebrew language, as in the stem of grapes being brought back by the scouts in the OT. It says grape, literally, not grapes.

You need to do some serious basic study not grounded in CA thinking.

The Bible literally defines Christ as God incarnate and separate from the Father and Holy Spirit.

Composer

01-04-2010, 06:41 PM

Your next misunderstanding I want to deal with -

. . . . But, Christ, being an heir or Adam via Mary didn't inherit that sin nature, so, as a co heir with all of Man could pay the family debt to God.
YOU ' claim ' this story book character didn't sin? -

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: {for us: some read, for you} 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: (1 Pet. 2:21-22) KJV self contradicting story book

Oops!

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) KJV self contradicting story book

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned : {for that: or, in whom} (Rom. 5:12) KJV self contradicting story book

Plus we also know that Death DID NOT pass on to all men because of Adam's sins. -

Jews correctly also, do not believe in original sin.

IN SHORT... Jews do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. The concept of Original Sin simply states that because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they brought Death into the world. Every human being dies because Adam and Eve committed a sin, and for their sin, all humans are punished with death. However, the Bible describes something entirely different. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden because if they remained, they could eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, which would make them IMmortal. If Adam and Eve had to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life to become IMmortal, then they were created mortal to begin with. They did not bring Death into the world, and we don't die because they sinned. As a matter of Biblical fact, the answer to Question One shows that one person cannot die as the punishment for the sins committed by another. We die because Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created. That is why God told the animals, before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil, to be fruitful and to multiply, since they needed to replace themselves. God also told the same thing to Adam and Eve before they ate that fruit as well. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/ (http://whatjewsbelieve.org/)) - What Jews believe Point 5.)

As it turned out therefore, the biblical text unambiguously proves that the Pharisees and Sadducees were correct and this biblical Jesus rightly recognised as a fraud.

No doubt this story book Jesus picked dumb fishermen that would fall for it, because the educated soon discovered his lies and deceptions!

Composer

01-04-2010, 07:15 PM

Seems you are still a CA and not reading literally.
I am afraid that your past and current trinitarian teachers have only misled you and not only are your current biblical interpretations incorrect but so are your speculations concerning me personally as here in my true relationship with the CA's and your false presumptions.

e.g. You ' claim ' that this biblical text must be always read ' literally '

So according to you ' WISDOM ' is a literal woman? -

Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: { Wisdom : Heb. Wisdoms, that is, Excellent wisdom} (Prov. 1:20) KJV story book

My comments are correct and Biblical.
Again you are easily proven incorrect, as your next claim about ' elohim ' is also likewise decimated -

So obviously this conversation needs backed up to a more fundamental reality and discussion point, the Trinity.

Elohim with singulars means 3 or more in a unity of one. It does not mean the royal plural which was a European invention that came about far after the OT was written.

The uniplural is a basic part of the old Hebrew language, as in the stem of grapes being brought back by the scouts in the OT. It says grape, literally, not grapes.

"The fanciful idea that Elohim referred to the Trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what the grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God” (William Smith, A Dictionary of the Bible, ed. Peloubet, MacDonald Pub. Co., 1948, p. 220).

You need to do some serious basic study not grounded in CA thinking.
Even the CA thinking you ' try ' to condemn, easily decimates your ideoligies. I DO NOT always agree with CA thinking, however CA biblical text story book thinking is far superior on every occassion compared to trinitarian story book ' thinking '. YOU trinitarians really really need to read the story book text yourselves, instead of blindly believing what your trinitarian masters have misled you to believe about it.

The Bible literally defines Christ as God incarnate and separate from the Father and Holy Spirit.
I must again inform you that this is just more of your misguided and uneducated propaganda that shall be addressed and dealt with as I progress along these various Topics.

Thanks for your contributions.

CoreIssue

01-05-2010, 12:00 AM

Composer

01-05-2010, 03:18 AM

"The fanciful idea that Elohim referred to the Trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what the grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God” (William Smith, A Dictionary of the Bible, ed. Peloubet, MacDonald Pub. Co., 1948, p. 220).

Well, I counter with this (http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/676/Uniplural-Noun.htm).
Obviously the unanimous body of scholars dismiss this lone writer.

You would also need to legitimately demonstrate that this was not this story book God referring to the story book heavenly angels with itself?

i.e. Elohim = Story book God + story book heavenly angels = Plural!

Really, don't even try to go there that statement if factual. Especially when you date this guy and where and when he was speaking.

You cannot find a single royal we in the Bible referring to any rulers.
IF what you said were true then so what?

The Royal we began with the Romans in AD times.
What ' royal is this you are implying and your point is? '

Yep, the anti Trinitarians cults try to grab this, along with modern forms of Judaism (who are apostate, I remind you. The reason they were dispersed in 70 AD).
Yes well trinitarians are a man made cult and their ideology is astray from the story book text!

Read the whole chapter. Here is the Trinity appearing to Abraham.
Genesis 18 The Three Visitors

1 The LORD(singular) appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men (three, not one) standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, (adressed them as one) [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+18&version=NIV#fen-NIV-428a)] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant."
"Very well," they answered, "do as you say."(three answered as one)
Three story book heavenly angels! Proof -

No man hath seen God at any time ; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:18) KJV story book

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. (Ex. 33:20) KJV story book.

Proving yet again they were story book heavenly angels in the form of men.

That is Trinity. Three distinct people acting as one. Read on and it continues.

Even before Israel existed the Trinity was known.
The world was considered to be ' flat ' at that time, but that didn't mean they were correct about that claim of yours either even IF I hypothetically accept your empty hypothesis.

Finally, God speaking to God.
Psalm 45:6-7 (New International Version)

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
]Whose scepter? That of Christ, who is the Word become flesh. Who was with God and is God.
Firstly, please tell us how a spoken Word becomes a literal person?

e.g. For your added education and information-

The "word" is only spoken of as "he" because 'logos' is masculine in Greek. But this does not mean that it refers to the man, Jesus. The German (Luther) version speaks of "das Wort" (neuter); the French (Segond) version speaks of "la parole" as feminine, showing that "the word" does not necessarily indicate a male person.

" It was impossible for the Apostles to identify Christ with Jehovah. Psalm 110:1 and Malachi 3:1 prevented this " (Charles C. Bigg, D.D. Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History, Oxford, in International Critical Commentary on I Peter).

Much more available as needs may be!

Thanks for your comments all be they totally incorrect!

CoreIssue

01-05-2010, 10:56 AM

Abraham refered to the plural 3 as the one singular Yahweh.

As well mere angels do not allow themselves to be called Lord. They reject the title or bowing down to them.

Your not getting off the hook on that one.

Your statement all scholars reject Elohim is absurd. I repeat, There never is an instance of any ruler being the Royal We in the Bible because the Royal We was an invention from later in time.

Don't demand I prove that. That would be a negative proof deman. YOU have to prove it was used, which you cannot.

Yep. No man has seen God. Christ is the incarnate flesh in which the Second Person of the Godhead dwells. So, no one has seen his spirit, which is God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=38941#post38941)
Finally, God speaking to God.
Psalm 45:6-7 (New International Version)

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
]Whose scepter? That of Christ, who is the Word become flesh. Who was with God and is God.

Firstly, please tell us how a spoken Word becomes a literal person? Your bait and switch effort isn't going to work.

God speaking to God. One setting the other on an Eternal Throne.

You are totally avoiding the uniplural of the Hebrew language or, in fact, that we use uniplurals in English.

Composer

01-05-2010, 07:03 PM

1. I have proved no man hath seen this story book God so your claim Abraham saw a trinity of gods is incorrect.

As the story book tale explains, he saw 3 heavenly story book angels.

2. I also proved Elohim is translated in the Neuter and Female form so if you think your Jesus is a eunuch or a Female, then your Elohim claims are also spurious.

2a) "Elohim" is one of those words which Hebrew Scholars have managed to complicate rather more than necessary. In the past scholars used to pass it off as "Royal plural". Modern Scholars have invented a BIG word for it which Hebrew Grammars call "PLURAL INTENSIVE".

However don't be fooled by that word "plural". In practical terms, all it means is that a word which LOOKS plural, (because it ends with "IM") is actually singular.

In simpler layman's language, "plural intensive" means that "Elohim" is BOTH plural and singular, depending on how it is used in context. When reading the Hebrew text, you don't know which is intended, until you see the accompanying pronouns and/or verbs.

When it appears with singular pronouns and/or verbs it is singular!

When it appears with plural pronouns and/or verbs, it is plural!

There are several other Hebrew words which are used the same way. e.g.
"mayim" (=water or waters) "panim" (=face or faces)

We have similar words in English! e.g. sheep. We could use "sheep" singular and "sheep" plural, to illustrate the important point that words in English can have identical spelling, but be either singular or plural in meaning. We have no way of knowing which is intended until we read the verb and/or pronoun which accompanies the word. Then we can tell at a glance. i.e. If we say "the sheep IS in the field", the SINGULAR verb tells us that there is only ONE!

But if we say "the sheep ARE in the field", the PLURAL verb tells us that there is MORE than one.

For simplified practical layman's purposes, that is how it is with the great majority of appearances of ELOHIM in the Hebrew Old Testament. The common mistake made, especially by Trinitarian theologians, is to fail to distinguish between these TWO different uses of "Elohim" just described above. And THAT leads to all sorts of illogical conclusions! (Such as the Trinity, or Oneness, or Arianism) (Analysis by Allon Maxwell)

3. You also failed to explain my question - " How does a spoken Word becomes a literal person? " (cf. John 1:1, 14) KJV story book

4. You wrote in part - Yep. No man has seen God. Christ is the incarnate flesh in which the Second Person of the Godhead dwells. So, no one has seen his spirit, which is God.

But didn't many see this spirit when your God was sent to Hell? (Acts 2:31) KJV story book.

5. You have also yet to explain why your trinitarian story book character Jesus is a compound liar by also claiming his Father was ' God the Father person ' when according to your trinitarian story book tale Luke 1:35 says it is your alleged ' Holy Spirit person? '

Jessie

01-05-2010, 08:30 PM

I'm assuming trolls.

have no clue as to whom you are proving what too.
you make no sense, but I suspect you know that.

roman8

01-05-2010, 08:47 PM

I dont understand the argument with this person , it is clear to me he/she has said in his HEART there is no God , because the proof is there if he wants to see it .

I struggle with a great many things , but always wanting to seek God in it .
He does not want to be saved , he is only seeking to destroy , to try and tear us down.

Going through the gospels and looking at how our Lord handles this kind of thing , there are those who tried to argue with him , but he did not get into arguments with them he just kept telling them the truth , and like this person "Composer" Many of them chose to just not hear it.

Composer , I do not understand what it is you are trying to accomplish here?
But I will pray that The Lord will give you eyes to see, and ears to hear.

If you are seeking the truth , then listen with an open heart , but if you are only here to try to turn us away , Then ask yourself why , or what is the purpose of it , to what end?

I would like to see you saved , I would like to see every soul saved , but I cant continue to read the the things you say , you have such an hatred for our Lord , that it makes me sad for you.

I will be praying for you:pray:

Composer

01-05-2010, 08:51 PM

I'm assuming trolls.

have no clue as to whom you are proving what too.
you make no sense, but I suspect you know that.
I accept your ineptitude and rapid capitulation.

You should go and slap your Pastor -

a) Testing his/her alleged Faith (Luke 6:29) KJV story book and b) the second and multiple successive slaps for his/her misleading his gullible flock? (cf. Matt. 5:39) KJV story book

Tell him/her to contact me and I'll explain why he/she deserves those slaps!

May be they could put up a better debate (but fail regardless) for you are obviously a failed and poor student!

Composer

01-05-2010, 09:15 PM

I dont understand the argument with this person, it is clear to me he/she has said in his HEART there is no God , because the proof is there if he wants to see it .
There is proof in Harry Potter and The Da Vinci code stories but do you accept them as true because it's written in a book?

You FIRST need to legitimately demonstrate your book isn't just another man made story book?

Tell you what, here's the Test of Faith and the abilities your story book God gave to genuine believers -

Remember, this IS NOT a Test of your God, it's a Test of YOUR alleged Faith and the promises given IF your God accepts your Faith as genuine. -

Mark 16:17-18, John 14:12 KJV story book.

Arrange for a demo with me and we'll go from there?

I have a paraplegic friend who would be happy for you to physically heal him for starters and I can get bucket loads of poison for you to take!

It's probably best I deal with your other problems and errors after you have first legitimately established you are a genuine believer.

The old lie about me hating you frauds doesn't wash in the slightest.

IF I hated you I wouldn't be here spending my time helping you see the Truth that currently evades you instead I would be selfish and keep it ALL to myself, which I obviously do not do.

So stop telling more porkies (lies)

Then again, your story book trinitarian Jesus was a repeated liar and a fraud claiming his Father was ' God the Father person ' when trinitarian story book ideology Luke 1:35 says it was your alleged ' Holy Spirit person ' so your example is disgraceful and illegitimate and you copy it.

IF you wish to attempt sensible debate with me, just stick to the text and what you think it means and why and I'll show you by that same mechanism why you bible believers are fundamentally WRONG and MISGUIDED!

roman8

01-05-2010, 11:02 PM

God does not heal everyone , but he is able , Jesus healed and gave sight to the blind and did many other miracles in order to fullfill prophecy .

I do believe that if we had enough faith in our God he would do more , but I am one of little faith, but I believe that God can and does heal . Will God heal someone who doesnt even believe he exists , maybe but thats up to him.
As far as what the bible says about what will prove our faith ,
I speak differently than I did before
I have seen the Lord open the eyes of certain people that were blind
by the word of the Lord I have seen people made whole
I have eaten the poison of many people and not been harmed by it .

You will say that I am not taking the bible literaly , yes I am .
Jesus spoke in Parables that are so layered they are inexhaustable.
Some things are to be taken literal on the surface and then there is so much more .
It only takes a little reason
Some is poetic .

I know you will only try to tear apart what I have said to you , but there is only one truth and that is the word of God.
If you believe we are all deluded , leave us to our delusions. But please dont insult me by telling me you care so much that you only want to tell me the truth, I see no care or concern in your words.
But you see I know I am not (Deluded) , I did not have a Christian family or was I indoctrinated by anyone , I went searching for the Lord, rather he pulled me towards him after looking into a great many different things . If the bible were a story book , it would have faded away by now , but instead the Lord has another one who will die for him, if needed.

Heaven is real , and the Lake of fire is real , oh how I wish it were not .

You find me something else that can tell me the begining to the end and fulfill all the prophesys and change peoples lives . The bible has proven its self to be true , and all the so called contradictions , I belive there are several hundred of them, all can be explained . As far as I can see God has given me enough to put my faith in his Son Jesus , and he has proven himself to me again and again. Im sorry but you just cannot deny that in my life . I wish you to know the Lord , I really do .

Composer

01-05-2010, 11:40 PM

God does not heal everyone , but he is able ,
Well according to your story book YOU and a friend can get your God to do whatever you ask -

Again, I tell you the truth,30 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/mat18_notes.htm#note30) if two of you on earth agree about whatever you ask, my Father in heaven will do it for you.31 (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Program%20Files\NET%20Bible%20Fi rst%20Edition\netbible.chm::/mat18_notes.htm#note31) (Matt. 18:19) NET story book.

Obviously any prayers you and your trinitarian pals have been making so far have only been selfish ones or else you and a pal would have got your God to heal all the world and rid it of its diseases and amputees and the dying would ALL be healed and perfectly fine and there would be no starvation or corruption or greed or ailments any longer.

Shame on ALL! you so called ' Jesus believers? '

Jesus healed and gave sight to the blind and did many other miracles in order to fullfill prophecy .
Your evidence is?

I do believe that if we had enough faith in our God he would do more, but I am one of little faith,
I echo your lack of faith in your biblical God!

I have eaten the poison of many people and not been harmed by it.
Not metaphorical poison dude! for I have swallowed the various poisonous biblical text based ideologies for 50 years and prevailed even stronger and I don't believe your story book Jesus literally ever existed.

I know you will only try to tear apart what I have said to you , but there is only one truth and that is the word of God.
If you believe we are all deluded , leave us to our delusions. But please dont insult me by telling me you care so much that you only want to tell me the truth, I see no care or concern in your words.
That's because you just told me you have little Faith in even your God so your level of understanding on even a faith basis is poor.

But you see I know I am not (Deluded) , I did not have a Christian family or was I indoctrinated by anyone , I went searching for the Lord, rather he pulled me towards him after looking into a great many different things . If the bible were a story book , it would have faded away by now , but instead the Lord has another one who will die for him, if needed.
Yes your story book Peter also claimed that early on but that bravado was a lie!

Heaven is real , and the Lake of fire is real , oh how I wish it were not.
Evidence is?

Thank you for your comments and sincerity, now can you please provide something more than these empty emotional appeals?

Willy

01-05-2010, 11:55 PM

... sorry mate, you were given much latitude to reel it in a bit. :(

roman8

01-06-2010, 12:12 AM

I was just talking with my Husband about you and telling him about all the things you were saying and asking him why do you think he is doing this. I believe what my husband says is correct , because what you are doing serves no other purpose.

That you are searching Composer , you have spent 50 years doing this to prove to yourself ,not to us, but to yourself that God is not the God of the bible , because if its true you are in a heap of trouble , so you are trying to comfort yourself. You know its not to late for you , God will forgive you if you turn to him .

You want proof , look at prophesy , study that , I mean really get into it and look at why the bible is true , instead of trying to disprove it . You are not the only one to come on here and try to knock us down , but wether or not you believe it you are searching .
Do you really think that we dont all want to see the day when everything is made right , a day when there will be no more pain , or sorrow or starvation or many other things that make this world an awful place. But the Lord promises he will make all things right . But this is all playing out for whatever reason , but he has told me the begining and the end and I will see it come to pass :nod:.

I have wondered why everything was not made right already , but I also know what is in my heart , its not pretty . If life were easier for me and everything made right it would not change my nature which is bent on selfishness and the ability to do evil, Who knows what I would be capable of if everything else were taken care of for me .

The bible doesnt hide the fact that we are a people of little faith , but I do know that God is who he says he is and things will end just as he says they will.

I cant give you more than this .God has given us his word , he has fullfilled prophesy to proove himself to us people of little faith, and his spirit dwells within me , thats just something I can not proove to you. The rest is on faith.

Im off to bed now ,I will be praying for you even if you attack my empty emotional appeal.;)