Psalm 77:10 Is Darby right?

[jshowalter]

I am not a translator, but I love this psalm. I recently read the NLT, which renders the verse:

And I said, "This is my fate, that the blessings of the Most High have changed to hatred."

When I read this I said to myself "What?" because I have studied this verse enough to see that the words blessing and hatred are not in the original. This is a difficult verse, and a variety of renderings have been made. The problem seems to hinge on the interpretation of the Hebrew word corresponding to Strong's number H8141. Not being able to translate this verse myself, I am guided by other translations and the Strong's Hebrew Dictionary entry which is as follows:
H8141shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): - + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).
The translations seem to fall into two groups, those that render H8141 as years, and those that render that word as a change. The Septuagint so renders it. I am inclined to give consideration to this. In my search I found the following, from a commentary, but am unable to cite the commentator. I suspect it may be Adam Clarke, at any rate, it suggests to translate the verse (English renderings in bold, emphasis mine):

"as Dr. Waterland renders, This my affliction is a change of the right hand of the Most High, i.e. it proceeds from a change of God's conduct towards me. De Dieu renders, Precari, hoc meum est; mutare dextram Altissimi: To pray, this is my business: to change the right hand of the Most High. I can do nothing else than pray: God is the Ruler of events. Mr. N.M. Berlin translates, Dolere meum hoc est: mutare est dextrae Altissimi: To grieve is my portion: to change (my condition) belongs to the right hand of the Most High."

Has anyone else out there wrestled with this psalm? The reason I love this psalm is that Asaph catches himself in the midst of a downward spiral of doubt, and turns his attention to the solution (Remembering God's character as demonstrated in His faithfulness to Israel). One final observation; I like the way that Darby deals with this psalm by punctuating with dashes. This appears to preserve the literal reading of the Hebrew by connecting verses ten and eleven to read as one line. Is this a legitimate reading of the verse?

Then said I, This is my weakness: --the years of the right hand of the Most High
Will I remember, --the works of Jah; for I will remember thy wonders of old, And I will meditate upon all thy work, and muse upon thy doings.
(Psa 77:10-12 Darby)

[CoreIssue]

There is a problem when you try to get too literal because meanings of words literally translated due not always carry the meanings as used in a culture.

I think the NIV goes a good job of carrying the intended meaning from the literal usage of the time.

Like "hand" one must be careful since in English there is hand and wrist but in Hebrew the hand includes the wrist.

So, he is bemoaning how God is reacting to his failures and wondering if God will ever show favor upon him again. His solution is not to dwell of the doubt and current circumstances but to remember how God deals with people who are doing it right and receiving God's blessings. He will seek to return that status. He is appealing to God to get back there.

10 Then I thought, "To this I will appeal:
the years of the right hand of the Most High." Home (http://www.biblestudytools.com/) > Lexicons (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/) > Hebrew (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/) > Chalah The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 02470 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin hlxa primitive root [compare (02342 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv)), (02470 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv)), (02490 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2490&version=kjv))] Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02470&version=kjv#Legend) Entry ChalahTWOT - 655 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech khaw-law' Verb Definition


to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry

(Qal) to be weak, be sick
(Piel)

to be or become weak, feel weak
to become sick, become ill
(CLBL) to entreat, pray, beg


(Niphal)

to make oneself sick
to be made sick
to be tired


(Pual) to be made weak, become weak
(Hithpael) to make oneself sick
(Hiphil)

to make sore
to make sick
to show signs of sickness, become sick
to grieve


(Hophal)

to be made sick
to be wounded

[jshowalter]

Thank you for your reply. For the sake of brevity I did not mention that I happen to like the NIV and ESV rendering of this verse. You just confirmed for me the viabilty of this rendering. It fits with the context.

I just saw the visual at the bottom of your reply:"The Bible should be a mirror into the soul, not a self portrait." Thanks for the reminder.

[Willy]

I am not a translator, but I love this psalm. I recently read the NLT, which renders the verse:

And I said, "This is my fate, that the blessings of the Most High have changed to hatred."

When I read this I said to myself "What?" because I have studied this verse enough to see that the words blessing and hatred are not in the original. This is a difficult verse, and a variety of renderings have been made. The problem seems to hinge on the interpretation of the Hebrew word corresponding to Strong's number H8141. Not being able to translate this verse myself, I am guided by other translations and the Strong's Hebrew Dictionary entry which is as follows:
H8141shaw-neh', shaw-naw'
(The first form being in plural only, the second form being feminine); from H8138; a year (as a revolution of time): - + whole age, X long, + old, year (X -ly).
The translations seem to fall into two groups, those that render H8141 as years, and those that render that word as a change. The Septuagint so renders it. I am inclined to give consideration to this. In my search I found the following, from a commentary, but am unable to cite the commentator. I suspect it may be Adam Clarke, at any rate, it suggests to translate the verse (English renderings in bold, emphasis mine):

"as Dr. Waterland renders, This my affliction is a change of the right hand of the Most High, i.e. it proceeds from a change of God's conduct towards me. De Dieu renders, Precari, hoc meum est; mutare dextram Altissimi: To pray, this is my business: to change the right hand of the Most High. I can do nothing else than pray: God is the Ruler of events. Mr. N.M. Berlin translates, Dolere meum hoc est: mutare est dextrae Altissimi: To grieve is my portion: to change (my condition) belongs to the right hand of the Most High."

Has anyone else out there wrestled with this psalm? The reason I love this psalm is that Asaph catches himself in the midst of a downward spiral of doubt, and turns his attention to the solution (Remembering God's character as demonstrated in His faithfulness to Israel). One final observation; I like the way that Darby deals with this psalm by punctuating with dashes. This appears to preserve the literal reading of the Hebrew by connecting verses ten and eleven to read as one line. Is this a legitimate reading of the verse?

Then said I, This is my weakness: --the years of the right hand of the Most High
Will I remember, --the works of Jah; for I will remember thy wonders of old, And I will meditate upon all thy work, and muse upon thy doings.
(Psa 77:10-12 Darby)

I like Darby's structure. It is the continuation of the thought. If I remember correctly Hebrew started out with no vowels and no punctuation reading right to left. Vowels were added and then punctuation ... by whom??

NIV doesn't sit right with me on this verse ... seems to fit better "owning the weakness" and then changing from self reflection to reflecting on God. Is there not a familiar pattern here?
When I first read it after your post, the thing that came to mind is the "present" cry of Israel for their redemption. Then it was my daily routine with God. Looking to self ... seeing weakness, failure, apprehension ... in the flesh ... and then changing focus to God ... a little time at Calvary ... for re-assurance, His strength, provision etc. and then out into the world.

NLT should come with a warning ... wait ... I think it does.:nod:

[CoreIssue]

I like Darby's structure. It is the continuation of the thought. If I remember correctly Hebrew started out with no vowels and no punctuation reading right to left. Vowels were added and then punctuation ... by whom?? Linquists during the translation.

Yes, they didn't have the punctuation, but other forms of transition and relationship that we don't have. You cannot translate with adding punctuation to carry the meanings over appropriately. You cannot do word for word as that will give false meanings.
NIV doesn't sit right with me on this verse ... seems to fit better "owning the weakness" and then changing from self reflection to reflecting on God. Is there not a familiar pattern here?Problem is Darby is archaic English and no way you can just read that phrase in modern English and get any sensible meaning out of it.
1250–1300; ME weik < ON veikr; c. OE wāc, D week, G weich; akin to OE wīcan to yield, give way, ON vīkja to move, turn, draw back, G weichen to yieldhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngStrong's Number: 02470 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin hlxa primitive root [compare (02342 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv)), (02470 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv)), (02490 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2490&version=kjv))] Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02470&version=kjv#Legend) Entry ChalahTWOT - 655 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech khaw-law' Verb Definition


to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry

(Qal) to be weak, be sick
(Piel)

to be or become weak, feel weak
to become sick, become ill
(CLBL) to entreat, pray, beg


(Niphal)

to make oneself sick
to be made sick
to be tired


(Pual) to be made weak, become weak
(Hithpael) to make oneself sick
(Hiphil)

to make sore
to make sick
to show signs of sickness, become sick
to grieve


(Hophal)

to be made sick
to be wounded





So, by the word definition it either means it made him sick or to this he will entreat, which means appeal.
en⋅treat

 http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/E02/E0218200) /ɛnˈtrit/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [en-treet] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA Use entreat in a Sentence (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=Use+entreat+in+a+Sentence&qsrc=2892&o=101993)

–verb (used with object) 1. to ask (a person) earnestly; beseech; implore; beg: to entreat the judge for mercy. 2. to ask earnestly for (something): He entreated help in his work.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make an earnest request or petition.NLT should come with a warning ... wait ... I think it does.:nod:Actually wish it wasn't printed.

[Willy]

Strong's Number: 02470 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin hlxa primitive root [compare (02342 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv)), (02470 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv)), (02490 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2490&version=kjv))] Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02470&version=kjv#Legend) Entry ChalahTWOT - 655 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech khaw-law' Verb Definition


to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry

(Qal) to be weak, be sick
(Piel)

to be or become weak, feel weak
to become sick, become ill
(CLBL) to entreat, pray, beg


(Niphal)

to make oneself sick
to be made sick
to be tired


(Pual) to be made weak, become weak
(Hithpael) to make oneself sick
(Hiphil)

to make sore
to make sick
to show signs of sickness, become sick
to grieve


(Hophal)

to be made sick
to be wounded





So, by the word definition it either means it made him sick or to this he will entreat, which means appeal. ... had to do some digging but:

piel infinitive

Psalm 77:10(11) I said, This (is) my infirmity:

Zecharia. 7:2 Regemmelech, and their men, to pray
(margin to intreat the face of)

Zecharia. 8:21 to pray before the Lord,
(margin to intreat)

Zecharia. 8:22 Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray
before the Lord

... so what was in the context that they chose infirmity??

Mechon Mamre renders it:

And I say: 'This is my weakness, that the right hand of the Most High could change.


Willy:tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

Strong's Number: 02470 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin hlxa primitive root [compare (02342 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2342&version=kjv)), (02470 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2470&version=kjv)), (02490 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=2490&version=kjv))] Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02470&version=kjv#Legend) Entry ChalahTWOT - 655 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech khaw-law' Verb Definition


to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry

(Qal) to be weak, be sick
(Piel)

to be or become weak, feel weak
to become sick, become ill
(CLBL) to entreat, pray, beg


(Niphal)

to make oneself sick
to be made sick
to be tired


(Pual) to be made weak, become weak
(Hithpael) to make oneself sick
(Hiphil)

to make sore
to make sick
to show signs of sickness, become sick
to grieve


(Hophal)

to be made sick
to be wounded





So, by the word definition it either means it made him sick or to this he will entreat, which means appeal. ... had to do some digging but:

piel infinitive

Psalm 77:10(11) I said, This (is) my infirmity:

Zecharia. 7:2 Regemmelech, and their men, to pray
(margin to intreat the face of)

Zecharia. 8:21 to pray before the Lord,
(margin to intreat)

Zecharia. 8:22 Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray
before the Lord

... so what was in the context that they chose infirmity??

Mechon Mamre renders it:

And I say: 'This is my weakness, that the right hand of the Most High could change.


Willy:tiphat:
Old English and ancient usage of terms.

He is appealing his weakness to God for his return to the good old days.

[Willy]

... Yes, that seems to work. :nod:

... I am trying to figure out what "CLBL" was short for.

(CLBL) to entreat, pray, beg

Collective League of Biblical Linguists ??:shrug:

Willy:tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

Cannot verify it is right but I found
A Concise Lexicon of the Biblical Languages/. by Jay P. Green and Maurice Robinson

[Willy]

Cannot verify it is right but I found
A Concise Lexicon of the Biblical Languages/. by Jay P. Green and Maurice Robinson

... well done!! ... all I could find was "Central Loudoun Basketball League"

Willy:tiphat: