Have you ever seen a angel. [Archive]

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Nicholas

05-04-2009, 06:53 PM

I"m looking to talk to people who believe they have seen an angel. I recently had an experiance. I"ll give the short version. I"m a growing christian, I have the seed of God in my heart. I read out of the King James bible. I see issues Jesus talked about weather good or bad. I"m learning to follow God with all my heart, mind and soul. I was trying to put the act of lust,fornifacation, adultry away. Out of my mind, heart and soul. The temptation grew great, then I realized I was a prizoner trapped in my own lust. As the days turned into weeks then months, during that time I could feel the fear, mental anguish, the shame, the bad thoughts slowly going away. Also at the same time I could feel peace entering my heart and it was staying in my heart. I was feeling pretty good in Jesus. I wasnt whole by no means. This was the condition my heart was in when I saw what I believe to be an angel or saint. I riding my motorcyle home after work. It was about 4:00 pm. Bright and sunny day. I didn"t have alot on my mind that evening. I was feeling peaceful in my heart. Then I turned my head and saw what I believe to be an angel. The experiance did not scare me at all. I realized that this being looked human, I could not tell if it were male or female, This did not surprize me after reading about what Jesus said about we would neither be married nor given in marriage in heaven. This being was a white person with brown hair, perfert hair, I could not see any parts in its hair. As I was driving past I new I was seeing someting that was not of this world. Its garment that it was wearing was so bright white you would think that it would hurt your eyes to look at, and it did not hurt to gaze upon it. It had shape but no shadowing, no shadding. Its robe was made of light. I could see the hands and about 2/3 of the feet. I also noticed that this being was looking toward the east sky as if it could see something I could not. I beleive that it was looking at Jesus in the eastern sky. I beleive Im just to blind to see what it was looking at in the eastern sky. So my goal is to see Jesus in the eastern sky before I die. Hopefully years from now. I have read alot of the Bible. An I have noticed that most people who have seen angels in the Bible did not have a problem with lust or adultry, like John who wrote Revelations he was older and in jail at patmos, or Marry she was a virgin and seen an angel. Abramham and Sarah. They both thought they were to old in age to have a child. They to saw angels. If any one would like to share I am more than greatful to here from you. My name is Nicholas.

kay-gee

05-04-2009, 11:41 PM

very inrteresting!

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-05-2009, 11:55 AM

Angels are God's messenger. They will come and appear as needed.

But so will demons, who can appear as angels.

Angels can look like anything they want. But usually just look like other humans.

This one thing I have a firm comment on:
when I saw what I believe to be an angel or saint.
Not a saint. All born again believers are saints and with but two very unique exceptions in the Bible dead saints do not appear to humans.

What, why and so forth in your instance I cannot comment on.

Just take care not to be drawn into New Age religions centered on angels.

Nicholas

05-05-2009, 07:58 PM

CoreIssue

05-05-2009, 09:21 PM

Thanks CoreIssue. I"m leaning more towards an angel. However in Matthew chapter 27 verse 50-53.

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. END Here the dead saints were resurrected and appeared to many.
Nope. Not resurrected, resuscitated.

Only Christ has been resurrected so far. We await the resurrection and/or Rapture at the Rapture at the beginning of the Trib.
1 Corinthians 15:20-27 (New International Version)

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:20-27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28730a)] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Christ has not come for the Rapture yet. That will happen when the Trib begins.

Nicholas

05-07-2009, 08:55 PM

CoreIssue

05-07-2009, 11:34 PM

Are you sure? Jesus did say some 2000 years ago.
Matthew 16:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=28&version=9&context=verse)
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mark 9:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=1&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. END.
If you kill your sinful nature is not this the first death, do you not have to do this in this life? What about being a new creature? If you except the same baptisms as Jesus, are we not made new and have repentance.
2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Quite sure. There is the physical and spiritual aspects of the kingdom of God. The spiritual came after his resurrection and presenting his body as an offering to the Father and then returning to the earth. He came with his kingdom.

There is power in the spiritual kingdom.

Our spirits are purged of the sin nature. Our flesh is not. Never does the Bible say our sin nature is dead when born again. We retain the sin nature in our flesh,which is changed via glorification during the First Resurrection, which begins at the Rapture.

We are not complete yet.

First death is physical death. Second is eternal separation from God and Christ.

Further, YOU cannot kill your sin nature. Only the Holy Spirit does via the blood of Christ.

And Christ only had water baptism, no more, which was a sign during the Mosaic Covenant. The baptism of the Holy Spirit could not occur until the Holy Spirit came.

As for new creature, creature means:
Strong's Number: 2937 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=2937&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin ktivsiï¿½from (2936 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2936&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2937&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Ktisis3:1000,481 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech ktis'-is Noun Feminine Definition

the act of founding, establishing, building etc

the act of creating, creation
creation i.e. thing created

of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation 1b

anything created 1b
after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called) 1b
the sum or aggregate of things created
institution, ordinance

Does not say you are complete sin free, because you are not. You are dead to the Law, not dead to sin, as Paul makes very clear in Romans.

The distinction is your spirit is clean, your flesh is unclean, so you are not responsible for your fleshly sins because Christ paid for them with his flesh.

In eternity, once glorified, both your spirit and flesh are pure, eternal and sin free.

roman8

05-08-2009, 11:03 AM

[/QUOTE]
Does not say you are complete sin free, because you are not. You are dead to the Law, not dead to sin, as Paul makes very clear in Romans.

The distinction is your spirit is clean, your flesh is unclean, so you are not responsible for your fleshly sins because Christ paid for them with his flesh.

In eternity, once glorified, both your spirit and flesh are pure, eternal and sin free.[/QUOTE]

looking forward to it
:yipee::ecstatic:

InTheWind

05-08-2009, 04:55 PM

Me too, the longer we stay here the worse it`s going to get, the world is very sick and getting sicker by the day.

Nicholas

05-08-2009, 07:40 PM

Matthew 5:48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=48&version=9&context=verse)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.END.
Rapture is not found anywhere in the bible? Jesus said for us to be perfect.
2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=54&chapter=5&verse=17&version=9&context=verse)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. END.
Thankyou for your message I found it interesting.
John 3:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=21&version=9&context=verse)
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 12:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=36&version=9&context=verse)
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.
To me these passages mean you have to repent and change your ways. Jesus said to a man.In John 5:14.
John 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=5&verse=14&version=9&context=verse)
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. END.
Here the man is forgiven of all his sins and made whole. I"m getting at the end of the message is that we can fall.

whole - 9 dictionary results

The word: Whole

–adjective 1.comprising the full quantity, amount, extent, number, etc., without diminution or exception; entire, full, or total: He ate the whole pie. They ran the whole distance. 2.containing all the elements properly belonging; complete: We have a whole set of antique china. 3.undivided; in one piece: to swallow a thing whole.

So was this man without sin at that very moment in time that Jesus forgive him of his sins and made him whole? Let me know what you think. Thanks. If you steal something you feel fear in your heart. If you do the good things Jesus talked about you feel the rewards from the Holy spirit in this present time.
John 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&verse=19&version=9&context=verse)
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. END.
So if our deeds were good and we loved the light, would this mean that we would be saved from condemnation? I believe it does. I also believe that the 1-st resurrection and death is happening as we speak. Have you read the parable of the sower and the seed?

kay-gee

05-08-2009, 08:35 PM

Thanks Nicholas...Interesting stuff!

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-10-2009, 01:24 AM

Problem with those verses Nickolas, is they do not say resurrected, I posted the verses that said no one but Christ has been resurrected yet and Revelation states the First Resurrection future.

What you are saying is a contradiction and does not override the verses that disagree with what you are saying.

You also neglect the verses in Romans where Paul says our spirits are willing but the flesh is weak, so we do keep sinning.

You have to be able to harmonize verses, not override one with another. A problem many struggle with.

Nicholas

05-10-2009, 01:11 PM

CoreIssue

05-10-2009, 01:37 PM

Your right about the bible not saying resurrected in these verses , However these scriptures do give in detail that these saints were Jews and that there bodies were in graves and that they which selpt arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection. After Jesus resurrection.
Matthew27:52
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. End.
Either one thing happened or two things happened at that time in the bible.
Did Jesus come back after 3 days and bring these saints back to life? I believe he Jesus did. The bible says that there were many bodies of the saints which slept arose. If you look at John chapter 11 it clearly states that Lazarus is dead. It also relates death and being asleep as the same. Jesus is the resurrection. Jesus raised Lazarus from death to life.
And there those brought back in the OT by Elijah, in example. But none were glorified and all died again.

We are talking resurrection versus resuscitation. Today many people are resuscitated. Different.
You said yourself coreissue that what I say is a contradiction and that I neglect other verses in the bible. Where is the contradictions and neglect of these scriptures. These scriptures from the book of John 11 go hand in hand with scriptures in Matthew 27. Harmony.
John 11:11
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. END.
John 11:14
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. End.
I have another one for you
Matthew 25:32-46.
All throughout the bible you will see that the right and left hand,and so on with the eyes, feet, side, are mentioned. Why? Can"t wait to here back from you.
As I posted, on the issue of resurrection, the passage clearly states ONLY Christ has been resurrected to date and the First Resurrection is a future event. Literally and clearly stated.

Even when Christ was resurrected the others are distinquished as being raised from the dead, not resurrected. In all the other examples, OT and NT, always raised, never resurrected.

Those of the First Resurrection are glorified, never to die again and they have purified eternal bodies. Those of the Second Resurrection return to their bodies, are not glorified, never physically die again but suffer the Second Death, meaning eternally separated from God.

Even with the issues with Christ's resurrection, ONLY those in Jerusalem and even there only some of the dead were raised:
The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Those people were the recent dead and recognized by living residents of Jerusalem. Fully in keeping with all the others mentioned other than Christ.

To try to say the Bible is talking resurrection in those verse puts one in direct conflict with the passages that say only Christ, resurrection of the saints is future and those identifying the First Resurrection as during the Trib.

Even further, OT saints are not limited to Jews. There were Gentile saints and before the division of Jews and Gentiles existed there were saints.

When studied out the Bible leaves no doubt only Christ has been resurrected so far. One has to be in doctrinal groups that reject the literal words of the Bible to claim otherwise.

Nicholas

05-10-2009, 09:02 PM

Hello Coreissue thankyou for your words. Can you show me scripture that backs up what you have said? I am a born again christian. I believe every word in the bible.
I have been baptized by water. Please show me where it states that Jesus is the only one to have have been resurrected. I thought we are suppose to be partakers in christ body? When do we do this? So what your telling me is that all I must do is walk down an Isle say alittle prayer and live my life the way I want? What about the parable about putting new wine into old bottles?
Mark 2:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Here in this book I"m getting that when you recieve the holy spirit you must be following the commandments that Jesus spoke of in the new testiment or you"ll burst. Burst meaning can not contain. Is this how we are partakers in the first resurrection?

CoreIssue

05-10-2009, 11:36 PM

Hello Coreissue thankyou for your words. Can you show me scripture that backs up what you have said? I am a born again christian. I believe every word in the bible.
I have been baptized by water. That is a work, a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You were already born again by the time you got baptized. Salvation is by grace, not works.
Please show me where it states that Jesus is the only one to have have been resurrected.1 Corinthians 15:20-27 (New International Version)

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:20-27;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28730a)] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.Clearly says no one but Christ has been resurrected yet. And this was said well after Christ's resurrection.
I thought we are suppose to be partakers in christ body? When do we do this? When born again. Christ body died, not his spirit. We enter the grave with him and rise with him. He rose as a spirit and then was resurrected and in Heaven was glorified AFTER presenting his earthly body as a blood sacrfice.
So what your telling me is that all I must do is walk down an Isle say alittle prayer and live my life the way I want? Never said that. You don't have to work or walk. You just ask. Salvation is by grace through faith, not works or forula.

But when born again you have a new pure spirit which changes your mind, which is combination of spirit and flesh.

Our flesh remains sinful thus the wars in the mind. Glorification is not on this earth.
What about the parable about putting new wine into old bottles?
Mark 2:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=2&verse=22&version=9&context=verse)
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.The verse is referring to the Gospel he was bringing, the new wine. Not being born again, which did not occur for anyone until after his resurrection.

The OT saints were in Paradise, a place in the Pit, because their spirits only had promise, not cleansing. Christ led them out and to Heaven when they could be born again, thus able to enter Heaven.
Here in this book I"m getting that when you recieve the holy spirit you must be following the commandments that Jesus spoke of in the new testiment or you"ll burst. Burst meaning can not contain. Is this how we are partakers in the first resurrection?Nope. As I said, no one was born again when Christ said this. They were still under the Mosaic Covenant. Fasting is OT, not NT. Christ was preparing the disciples for the NT and no need to fast when he was with them.

New wine is grape juice. Fermentation hardens leather. Filling a hardened old vessel with new wine and letting it ferment will shatter the leather now, not just harden it.

The Jews there were hardened into the Mosaic covenant way of doing things. Fermented. Christ brought new wine, so it need a new skin, the Church, a new covenant.

When the Church Age ends the 'skin' will change again, to the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah, which is neither OT Mosaic or NT Church.

This is not about salvation or born again. It is not about an individuals flesh.

Plus you cannot loose your salvation, thus cannot 'burst.' You are changed and no matter how badly one screws up God will not let you go. Romans 8 says he owns your salvation, not you.

Motorhead

05-11-2009, 01:30 AM

WOW, this is good stuff. Learning a lot, let's keep this thread going :nod:

Nicholas

05-12-2009, 12:06 AM

I read.
1 Corinthians 15:20-27 (King James Version)

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

No where does it say that Jesus was and is the only one to have been raised. It states the Jesus is the first to be raised from the dead. So was Jesus resurrected or resuscitated? I believe the scripture are saying Jesus was resurrected. You said that QUOTE(Even when Christ was resurrected the others are distinquished as being raised from the dead, not resurrected. In all the other examples, OT and NT, always raised, never resurrected.)END QUOTE. If what you told me to be true. Then you believe Jesus was resuscitated not resurrected. Or you might have been mistaken.
Now I usally read out of the KJV bible. I wanted to see if the wording was different from the 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 (New International Version) I agree with both KJV and NIV. In the NIV the bible you quoted from Says
1 Corinthians 15:20-27 (New International Version)

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
I believe Jesus was dead and I know Jesus is alive now. I do not believe in once saved always saved. I believe to be saved you must have the water and spirit baptisms. I believe you recieve the seed of God. The same seed Jesus talks abouts in LUKE CHAPTER 8:4-15.
4While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable: 5"A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. 6Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown."
When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

9His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,
" 'though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand.'[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=8&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-25248a)] 11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Here Jesus is saying that many people hear the word of God, and because of different actions and personal choices they have allowed the deveil to come and take the word from there hearts. That they may not beleive and be saved.
The question is once saved always saved, yes or no? Or does God give us a seed and are we Responsible for our hearts condition through our actions? Whether we grow or not? To me being saved means to be 100% baptised by water and the Holyspirit.

CoreIssue

05-12-2009, 12:12 PM

No where does it say that Jesus was and is the only one to have been raised.
And no where have I ever made such a claim.
Lazarus was raised.
Jesus also raised from dead, Jairus' daughter (Matthew 9:18-26; Mark 5:41-42; Luke 8:52-56) and a widow's son (Luke 7:11-15).
In 1 Kings 17:22 Elijah raised a boy from the dead.
In 2 Kings 4:34-35 Elisha raised a boy from the dead.
In 2 Kings 13:20-21 Elisha's bones raised a man from the dead.
In Acts 9:40-41 Peter raised a woman from the dead.
In Acts 20:9-20 Paul raised a man from the dead.

It states the Jesus is the first to be raised from the dead.
No, it does not say he was the first raised. It says Jesus was raised from the dead and is the first to be resurrected and firstfruits of those raised from the dead.

Firstfruits means the first of a harvest. You have to understand the meaning of the term. As in the OT the firstfruits were given to God.

Since all these others were raised from the dead prior to Christ being raised from the dead he cannot possibly be the first using your definition of the terms. Either you are mistaken or the Bible is contradicting itself or just flat out lying. Which is it?
So was Jesus resurrected or resuscitated? I believe the scripture are saying Jesus was resurrected.
Yes, the first. No one else in the Bible prior to the Rapture is ever referred to as being resurrected. Therefore the word has a special meaning above and beyond being raised from the dead.

And it does. It means raised from the dead, back in the flesh and never leaving the flesh again. First Resurrection is from the Rapture to the end of the MK. Those are glorified. Second Resurrection is after the destruction of the earth and those appear before the White Throne, are not glorified, and are cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity, but never leave their flesh again.

Lazarus and ALL the other raised from the dead die again. No where does it say their spirits left their body. Where it does speak of their condition they are referred to as sleeping.
You said that QUOTE(Even when Christ was resurrected the others are distinquished as being raised from the dead, not resurrected. In all the other examples, OT and NT, always raised, never resurrected.)END QUOTE. If what you told me to be true. Then you believe Jesus was resuscitated not resurrected. Or you might have been mistaken.
Neither, you are not reading the full context of the passage. You are focusing on one word in one sentence of the passage to the exclusion of all else said.

Let us walk through the passage. And I don't use the KJV as my main because it is written in archaic English that we do not use today and it has numerous translation errors that cause people to get confused.

To be different, I will use the NASB here.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead,
Does not say first raised. Greek raised means:
Strong's Number: 1453 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1453&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin egeiroprobably akin to the base of (58 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=58&version=nas)) (through the idea of collecting one's faculties) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1453&version=nas#Legend) Entry Egeiro2:333,195 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech eg-i'-ro Verb Definition

to arouse, cause to rise

to arouse from sleep, to awake
to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
to raise up, produce, cause to appear

to cause to appear, bring before the public
to raise up, stir up, against one
to raise up i.e. cause to be born
of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect

the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
First, not another in a long list. New and different.
Strong's Number: 536 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=536&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin aparcefrom a compound of (575 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=575&version=nas)) and (756 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=756&version=nas)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=536&version=nas#Legend) Entry Aparche1:484,81 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech ap-ar-khay' Noun Feminine Definition

to offer firstlings or firstfruits
to take away the firstfruits of the productions of the earth which was offered to God. The first portion of the dough, from which sacred loaves were to be prepared. Hence term used of persons consecrated to God for all time.
persons superior in excellence to others of the same class

21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Christ brought resurrection. It did not exist before. Definition:
Strong's Number: 386 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=386&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin anastasiï¿½from (450 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=450&version=nas)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=386&version=nas#Legend) Entry Anastasis1:371,60 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech an-as'-tas-is Noun Feminine Definition

a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
a rising from the dead

that of Christ
that of all men at the end of this present age
the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (Heb. 11:

Contextual usage distinguishes it from just being raised.

Adam brought sin and death via violation of the law and disobedience to God. Christ brought life by obedience to the law and obedience to God.

He paid for what we could not. We can do nothing to earn salvation or pay for it.
23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits;
First, not second. Which means NONE of those raised before were raised as he was raised.
then,
Later, not now or before. Future.
when he comes,
Future. Has not happened yet. That eliminate every last person other than Christ who was raised before.
those who belong to him.
His saints, OT and NT.
24Then the end will come,
Future. Not happened yet.
when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
That is on the New Earth, not this one.
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Death will continue until the end of time. Then eternity begins for all.
27For he "has put everything under his feet."a]" class="footnote">[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:20-27&version=31#fen-NIV-28730a)] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
And Christ is God in the flesh.

As for Eternal Security, everyone is given a desire for God and a basic understanding of right and wrong. It is called the Law of Conscience and has been with us since Adam and Eve. Mosaic Law added to the knowledge and the NT added more.

We can harden our hearts and not hear, can hear and not act or hear and act, via the help of the Holy Spirit. But once we act we do not go back, even when we fail at times to different degrees.

Salvation is the issue of coming the Christ. Sanctification is what follows, meaning growth in Christ. Separate issues that are related, one stemming from the other.
To me being saved means to be 100% baptised by water and the Holyspirit.
Nope. Water Baptism has nothing to do with your salvation, that is a work of sanctification. There are no works of salvation.
Even the verses that speak of repenting for salvation do not say repent and be baptized for salvation. They say repent for salvation and then be baptized.

The death bed conversion makes one just as saved as the one who has been for 50 years. The man on the cross was saved with water baptism. Works are for rewards, not salvation.
1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428d)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30430e)] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%2011;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28201c)]
Law condemns, it does not save. We are dead to the law.
Galatians 3
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ga%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29111h)] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 2
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-29087d)]
Works are for rewards, not salvation.
1 Corinthians 3
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13(W (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28424W))each man's work will become evident; for (X (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28424X))the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will (Y (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28425Y))receive a reward.
15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet (Z (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%203;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28426Z))so as through fire.

Eternal Security. You will, not might and nothing can take it away.
Romans 8
28And we know that [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#fen-NASB-28145c)]God causes (BG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28145BG))all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are (BH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28145BH))called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He (BI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BI))foreknew, He also (BJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BJ))predestined to become (BK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BK))conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (BL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28146BL))firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He (BM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BM))predestined, He also (BN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BN))called; and these whom He called, He also (BO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BO))justified; and these whom He justified, He also (BP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28147BP))glorified.
31(BQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28148BQ))What then shall we say to these things? (BR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28148BR))If God is for us, who is against us?
32He who (BS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28149BS))did not spare His own Son, but (BT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28149BT))delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33Who will bring a charge against (BU (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28150BU))God's elect? (BV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28150BV))God is the one who justifies;
34who is the one who (BW (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28151BW))condemns? Christ Jesus is He who (BX (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28151BX))died, yes, rather who was [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#fen-NASB-28151d)](BY (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28151BY))raised, who is (BZ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28151BZ))at the right hand of God, who also (CA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28151CA))intercedes for us.
35Who will separate us from (CB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28152CB))the love of [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#fen-NASB-28152e)]Christ? Will (CC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28152CC))tribulation, or distress, or (CD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28152CD))persecution, or (CE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28152CE))famine, or (CF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28152CF))nakedness, or (CG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28152CG))peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
"(CH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28153CH))FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly (CI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28154CI))conquer through (CJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28154CJ))Him who loved us.
38For I am convinced that neither (CK (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28155CK))death, nor life, nor (CL (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28155CL))angels, nor principalities, nor (CM (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28155CM))things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from (CN (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28156CN))the love of God, which is (CO (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=49;#cen-NASB-28156CO))in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Very clear. Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection and once you come to him you will not leave.

I believe in salvation, by becoming Christ like in our spirits we would never leave him. To leave would not be Christ like.

Just remember, only our spirits are born again, not our flesh. Our flesh is not born again, it will be glorified since it is only a vessel to that contains us.

Nicholas

05-12-2009, 07:30 PM

Coreissue I think you are almost there. But you still have not answered my question.
You coreissue said Quote:
QUOTE(Even when Christ was resurrected the others are distinquished as being raised from the dead, not resurrected. In all the other examples, OT and NT, always raised, never resurrected.)END QUOTE. If what you told me to be true. Then you believe Jesus was resuscitated not resurrected. Or you might have been mistaken.
Neither, you are not reading the full context of the passage. You are focusing on one word in one sentence of the passage to the exclusion of all else said.

Let us walk through the passage. And I don't use the KJV as my main because it is written in archaic English that we do not use today and it has numerous translation errors that cause people to get confused.

To be different, I will use the NASB here

Not the case now the question one more time.
Resuscitated or Resurrected.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
I still believe Jesus was resurrected.

Nicholas

05-12-2009, 07:37 PM

Coreissue I enjoy you sharing with me. Thanks I"m greatful to God that there are other people who do read the word of God. Believe it or not I have come across some interesting subjects that I have not seen before, subjects that you have brought to my attention. Have you read any about the right hand or left hand subjects yet?
I plan on posting a thread on it to give you a heads up. Start reading up. Your friend in Jesus.

CoreIssue

05-12-2009, 07:51 PM

Not the case now the question one more time.
Resuscitated or Resurrected.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
I still believe Jesus was resurrected.
Simple. Use the Rapture passage to illustrate.
1 Thessalonians 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Dead rise first, after their spirits return to their bodies, then all are caught up to be with Christ forever in glorified bodies.

Those that are simply raised die again. There spirits never left their bodies. You only die once, as in final death where you cannot be resuscitated.
Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

In every case of being just raised it was a recent death. Even with the saints at Christ's resurrection. All recent, known and returned to their own in Jerusalem where they were known.

Those resuscitated didn't leave their bodies.

Christ most assuredly left his body and descended to Hell. Then returned, meaning resurrection, not resuscitation.

You keep making the same error over and over by focusing on raised and neglecting resurrected to get the difference. You cannot dismiss the word resurrected as it is part of the contextual meaning of the passage.

Right now there is no human flesh in Heaven but Christ. That changes at the Rapture where they return to the Father's House, per the Wedding Custom, for the Wedding Supper of the Lamb.

CoreIssue

05-12-2009, 07:53 PM

Nicholas

05-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Man your an old goat. I"ve only been reading for a few years.
QUOTE: YOU SAID.
In every case of being just raised it was a recent death. Even with the saints at Christ's resurrection. All recent, known and returned to their own in Jerusalem where they were known. END QUOTE.
Where does it say that these saints were only dead recently? What about Lazarus?
Lazarus was dead 4 days.
What about the theif that was crucified (http://www.gospel.com/topics/crucified) and died next to Jesus. You know what Jesus told him.
Mark 9
4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.END.
What about Elias and Moses?
Elias and Moses bodies have been dead for many years.
I still believe when my body dies and at that very moment my spirit will still be alive in Jesus. So have you read anything about the left hand and right hand?

CoreIssue

05-12-2009, 10:10 PM

Man your an old goat. I"ve only been reading for a few years.
Don't get ITW going on that! :p
QUOTE: YOU SAID.
In every case of being just raised it was a recent death. Even with the saints at Christ's resurrection. All recent, known and returned to their own in Jerusalem where they were known. END QUOTE.
Where does it say that these saints were only dead recently? What about Lazarus?
Lazarus was dead 4 days.
Recent is a variable frame of reference by circumstance.

Flesh and organs still there, even if in decay. All those who rose at the time of Christ were known by man in Jerusalem. So recently dead.

All mentions of such in the Bible are still in the flesh. God can cause the spirits to not leave, but sleep, at his will, as demonstrated with how Lazarus came out of the cave.
What about the theif that was crucified (http://www.gospel.com/topics/crucified) and died next to Jesus. You know what Jesus told him.
Yep. Christ's spirit descended to Abraham's Bosom/Paradise and Hell. That is where all spirits of the OT went, one of the two places. The thief's went to Paradise.

Christ remained there 3 days, where he preached to spirits there. Then his spirit rose with them led out with him, he reentered his body, they did not reenter theirs, and when he rose to Heaven to offer his flesh as the blood offering they went with him, still as spirits.
Mark 9
4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.END.
What about Elias and Moses?
Elias and Moses bodies have been dead for many years.
Moses was a spirit. Elijah was not dead, but taken physically to Heaven. So oops, when I said only Christ had flesh in Heaven I was wrong.

Elijah and Enoch, the Two Witnesses and Two Olive Trees, will die mid trib and then be resurrected and taken to Heaven.

But nowhere does it say Moses was in the flesh, any more than the prophet being summoned by the witch for the King in the OT was in his flesh. (she was shocked he was coming. Really expecting a demon).
I still believe when my body dies and at that very moment my spirit will still be alive in Jesus. So have you read anything about the left hand and right hand?
Spirits never ever die. Spiritual death is separation from God, not dieing, as in ceasing to function.

On the right left hand I am not sure which aspect you are referring to. But, right hand seat, position, etc is the preferred position, position of honor. Left the less preferred or rejected.

kay-gee

05-13-2009, 12:42 AM

But Lazurus was dead dead dead. After 4 days there was a stench!

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 09:49 AM

Nicholas

05-13-2009, 07:00 PM

You said coreissue
Quote:
Bible is quite clear, you only have true physical death once, not twice. Your spirit has to leave to be complete.
If my body dies right now. Where does my body go? Were does my spirit go?

Nicholas

05-13-2009, 07:32 PM

kay-gee

05-13-2009, 07:46 PM

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 08:52 PM

You said coreissue
Quote:
Flesh and organs still there, even if in decay. All those who rose at the time of Christ were known by man in Jerusalem. So recently dead. END QUOTE.
I still do not get where your interpation comes from? You have no scripture to back up your claim.
You said QUOTE:
All mentions of such in the Bible are still in the flesh. God can cause the spirits to not leave, but sleep, at his will, as demonstrated with how Lazarus came out of the cave. END QUOTE.
So does sleep in the bible mean the same as dead for 4 days?
John Chapter 11
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him." END.

I believe the WORD OF GOD is very clear and precise about death.
Death use to be defined as when the heart stopped and breathing cease. So immediate.

Then it was discovered you could restore heart beat and breathing. So the definition changed and has continued to change. The resuscitation period has grown and now takes into consideration when the brain can no longer be made to funtion again and how much viable reconstruction and such can be done to a body.

God can do a whole lot more restoration than we can.

Bottom line is today there is death the correctable and death that is not. You die and can re restored or you die and cannot. So there isn't one single definition of the term, medically speaking.

Same with the Bible. There is physical death that was final and physcial death that was not.

In all cases final death is when the spirit leaves the flesh. When God keeps the spirit in the body longer than it normally would remain in earthly terms a person is dead.

But as the Bible says, when the spirit leaves God will not put it back in to simply return to life to keep living and earthly life. You die once and then are judged for rewards or condemnation. But in both cases your spirit returns to the flesh which God will reconstruct even if there isn't even a speck of bone remaining.

Of course I have Biblical backing for it.

The Bible says you die once and then are judged. Did God violate that with Lazurus, in example, or, like with medical definition today, is there different meanings for death?

Read what Lazurus said. He 'woke up.' But spirits do not sleep. How do you reconcile it?

As for those who raised at the time of Christ. Says SOME raised who were KNOWN by those in Jerusalem. That means recent death.

All in the OT and NT being raised were in the flesh, recently dead.

So what I am saying is fully consistent with the Bible.

Now, let me turn the question around on you. Try to justify any other position Biblically. You cannot. Process of elimination leaves only one set of answers that are viable.

Much of the Bible is not spelled out literally point by point. But when you bring all the related together you can see the bigger picture.

You cannot develop a full belief based only on single passages in many cases.

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 08:55 PM

But Lazurus was dead dead dead. After 4 days there was a stench!

all the best...
And he died, died, died again. The resurrected do not.

It says Christ was the firstfruits and first resurrected from the dead. There Lazurus was not resurrected.

It says Christ is the ONLY ONE resurrected to date. So none of the others were resurrected.

Lazurus' spirit didn't leave his body. He came out waking up from a sleep, not returning from Paradise to his body.

Bible is quite clear, you only have true physical death once, not twice. Your spirit has to leave to be complete.

I see your point, but if you slept for 4 days you would not begin to decay and smell.

Certainly not resurrected in the way Christ is resurrected!

all the best...
In some cases no but in others the flesh would be coming off your bones in less than 3 days. Depends on where you are.

Not resurrected. That word is used exclusively for raised, glorified and never dieing again. It has unique contextual meaning in the Bible.

So, you cannot spin this to your doctrine. Won't work.

Nicholas

05-13-2009, 09:29 PM

Hey Kay-gee your right on.
Certainly not resurrected in the way Christ is resurrected!

Nicholas

05-13-2009, 09:46 PM

Glorified and never dieing again.
I believe this is what happens when you truely are saved. I believe you have a sober mind and pure heart when whole. You will have all the fruits of the spirit. If your body dies and you havent been washed in the blood of Jesus. Meaning baptizied by the Holyspirit and by water, how do we get resurrected in spirit after we are dead and our bodies lay in the grave.
The answer is you only have this life to get it right.

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 10:13 PM

Hey Kay-gee your right on.
Certainly not resurrected in the way Christ is resurrected!
You are not paying attention to the passage. ONLY Christ has been resurrected. Period.

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 10:30 PM

Glorified and never dieing again.
[QUOTE]I believe this is what happens when you truely are saved.
You are NOT glorified, nor is anyone else but Christ. Do you know what the word means? It means your FLESH, not your spirit, is made pure and eternal. Your spirit is born-again, not glorified.
I believe you have a sober mind and pure heart when whole.
Nope. Your mind is at war and you still sin.

You are pushing Total Sanctification, a truly false doctrine.
You will have all the fruits of the spirit.
Has nothing to do with the old nature that resides in the flesh. Your flesh still has sin nature and you sin. Every day.
If your body dies and you havent been washed in the blood of Jesus. Meaning baptizied by the Holyspirit
Yes.
and by water,
Absolutely not. Thief on the cross, the guy on the death bed and so forth are born-again but never ever water baptised. You are pleading works as part of salvation and I already posted the passages refuting that. 'not of works lest any man should bost' and 'if by works then grace is nullified.'
how do we get resurrected in spirit after we are dead and our bodies lay in the grave.
You do not get resurrected in spirit. Only flesh is resurrected. The word mains raised back to life and spirits never ever die.
The answer is you only have this life to get it right.
The answer is your premises are wrong as are your word meanings and usages.

You are pleading salvation by works, not grace. You can do no more than earnestly ask for forgiveness and accept it by the grace of Christ through his blood, an instantaneous event, not a process, no works involved.

Growing in Christ is Sanctification, not salvation.

You are practicing Shopping Cart Theology. That means taking the parts you can fit to your doctrines and forgetting the rest in your thinking. You cannot do that.

As I said before, turn it around and you justify your positions and how they harmonize with the verses I posted. You cannot and didn't even try. All you are doing is telling me what you believe, not how you can possibly make it all fit and work together.

Nicholas

05-13-2009, 10:39 PM

CoreIssue you have acused me and Kay-gee of using doctrine you do not agree with. I have not read everything Kay-gee has said but what I have read some of the things Kay-gee states. I must agree with Kay-gee. Now you told me
QUOTE:
Much of the Bible is not spelled out literally point by point. But when you bring all the related together you can see the bigger picture. END.

Come on.You told me the scripture works in harmony and I believe they do. You are putting your own doctrine into effect in this very statement above.
I"ve seen more of your opinions that you can not back up by fact or scripture.
I believe its okay to agree to disagree, but I do not find it prudent to say that much of the bible is not spelled out literally point by point. I must disagree.
much

- 7 dictionary results
much (http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BwmCe6GsLSvSIDpjWwgXTvMCKCriYow3OiMjGCcCNtwGQvw UQAxgDII-UoREoBTgAUID-oYMGYMnmqYa4o9wToAHSzbT_A7IBGGRpY3Rpb25hcnkucmVmZX JlbmNlLmNvbcgBAdoBK2h0dHA6Ly9kaWN0aW9uYXJ5LnJlZmVy ZW5jZS5jb20vYnJvd3NlL211Y2iAAgGoAwHoA2zoA7QF6AOHBv UDIAQABPUDBAAAAA&num=3&sig=AGiWqtyU7RsxqbJwSBJB_FmIEYH-Blnk9g&client=ca-aj-lexico-dict&adurl=http://www.linkparis.com/mont-st-michel.htm) /mʌtʃ/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [muhch] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA adjective, more, most, noun, adverb, more, most. –adjective 1.great in quantity, measure, or degree: too much cake.
–noun 2.a great quantity, measure, or degree: Much of his research was unreliable. 3.a great, important, or notable thing or matter: The house is not much to look at.
–adverb 4.to a great extent or degree; greatly; far: to talk too much; much heavier. 5.nearly, approximately, or about: This is much like the others.

Nicholas

05-13-2009, 10:52 PM

John 17

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 11:04 PM

CoreIssue you have acused me and Kay-gee of using doctrine you do not agree with. I have not read everything Kay-gee has said but what I have read some of the things Kay-gee states. I must agree with Kay-gee.
I know what KG has stated in this arena. He will admit we very much do not agree.

Well, when you make your statements of having glorified flesh, pure hear and etc with the mind, that does fit Total Sanctification, regardless of if you formally embrace the doctrine or not.

Curiously after saying it more than once on such issues you have not come back and said that you do indeed have sinful flesh and still do sin. Quite the opposite in fact, so far. So intentionally or not, your statements are pointing solidly in that direction.
Now you told me
QUOTE:
Much of the Bible is not spelled out literally point by point. But when you bring all the related together you can see the bigger picture. END.

Come on.You told me the scripture works in harmony and I believe they do. You are putting your own doctrine into effect in this very statement above.
Yep. And I have seen zero from you putting it together for your doctrinal position. Nothing reflecting glorified flesh on this earth. Nothing demonstrating people other than Christ have been glorified. Nothing dealing with Christ being the FIRST resurrected to harmonize it with what you said.
I"ve seen more of your opinions that you can not back up by fact or scripture.
I posted many verses and passages that refute you. Did you deal with them? No, your went right back to posting your selected verses.

I have dealt with the verses you posted. You have done nothing to deal with what I posted, as in explaining how the harmonize with your view.

So, try dealing with the verses I posted and see where it takes you. Don't just say I have not proven every word to your satisfaction.
I believe its okay to agree to disagree, but I do not find it prudent to say that much of the bible is not spelled out literally point by point. I must disagree.
Then try explaining the verses I posted instead of disregarding them.
much

- 7 dictionary results
much (http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BwmCe6GsLSvSIDpjWwgXTvMCKCriYow3OiMjGCcCNtwGQvw UQAxgDII-UoREoBTgAUID-oYMGYMnmqYa4o9wToAHSzbT_A7IBGGRpY3Rpb25hcnkucmVmZX JlbmNlLmNvbcgBAdoBK2h0dHA6Ly9kaWN0aW9uYXJ5LnJlZmVy ZW5jZS5jb20vYnJvd3NlL211Y2iAAgGoAwHoA2zoA7QF6AOHBv UDIAQABPUDBAAAAA&num=3&sig=AGiWqtyU7RsxqbJwSBJB_FmIEYH-Blnk9g&client=ca-aj-lexico-dict&adurl=http://www.linkparis.com/mont-st-michel.htm) /mʌtʃ/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [muhch] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA adjective, more, most, noun, adverb, more, most. –adjective 1.great in quantity, measure, or degree: too much cake.
–noun 2.a great quantity, measure, or degree: Much of his research was unreliable. 3.a great, important, or notable thing or matter: The house is not much to look at.
–adverb 4.to a great extent or degree; greatly; far: to talk too much; much heavier. 5.nearly, approximately, or about: This is much like the others.
Which contributes nothing to this discussion.

Deal with the verses and passages I posted. Show me how you can harmonize them with your thinking.

Really, I showed Lazarus and others raised by Christ and those raised in the OT were not resurrected simply by Christ being the First Resurrected. I have shown those raise at Christ's resurrection were not resurrected because Paul, well after the issue, said no one but Christ has been resurrected.

How do you reconcile those verses and passages with your thinking? You have yet to even try to explain that.

CoreIssue

05-13-2009, 11:33 PM

Glorification:
Strong's Number: 1392 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1392&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin doxavzwfrom (1391 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1391&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1392&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Doxazo2:253,178 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech dox-ad'-zo Verb Definition

to think, suppose, be of opinion
to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

to impart glory to something, render it excellent
to make renowned, render illustrious

to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

Glory
Strong's Number: 1391 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1391&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin dovxafrom the base of (1380 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1391&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Doxa2:233,178 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech dox'-ah Noun Feminine Definition

opinion, judgment, view
opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory

splendour, brightness

of the moon, sun, stars
magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
majesty

a thing belonging to God
the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
a thing belonging to Christ 3c

the kingly majesty of the Messiah 3c
the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty

of the angels 3c

as apparent in their exterior brightness

a most glorious condition, most exalted state

of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

The contextual usage of glorified is:
to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

to impart glory to something, render it excellent

We are literally physically made glorious and excellent. Nothing to do with the spirit ever in context.

Whereas humans can possess glory. Saints possess honor and good opinion, but are not physically perfected and still have sin nature.

Paul spells it out in Romans very well. Uses chapters to cover it. In Romans 7 he says:
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=7&version=31#fen-NIV-28095c)] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, most assuredly your flesh is not glorified and you still struggle with sin.

Only your spirit is born again.

So, we all struggle with the war of the old and new natures that is carried out in our minds, which is the meeting place and comingling of spirit and mind. Spirit says do it right and the flesh says satisfy its earthly desires.

kay-gee

05-14-2009, 12:47 AM

Think of it this way. Those people all died again. Christ rose never to die again.

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-14-2009, 09:51 AM

CTZonEdit

05-14-2009, 10:48 AM

KG, If those people all died again then the bible lies.

kay-gee

05-14-2009, 08:58 PM

HUH?

all the best...

Nicholas

05-14-2009, 10:08 PM

I had a really good page but some how My computer had gotten logged off. I will get back with you all this weekend when I have more time.

kay-gee

05-15-2009, 12:04 AM

CoreIssue

05-15-2009, 01:17 PM

Think of it this way. Those people all died again. Christ rose never to die again.

all the best...
You are trying to defend your doctrine by saying that because of the First Resurrection issues stated in Revelation.

Again you are not literal. It states Christ is the First Resurrected and only resurrected and this position contradicts that statement.

No doctrine. no contradiction. When I agree with you, you still jump down my throat.

all the best...
But you say they were resurrected, which we do not agree on because of your doctrine.

Not that they died again, KG, we agree, but that they were resurrected, which they were not. They were just raised from death. Big difference.

Or have you backed off your doctrine that Revelation happened before 70 AD and is not future? You are confusing me. :scratch:

CTZonEdit

05-15-2009, 02:23 PM

KG,

The bible says you die once and only once.

So explain how you reconcile that everyone in the bible that was "raised" from the dead did not violate this verse.

They either are still living today or died again violating the bible.

roman8

05-15-2009, 04:02 PM

I, dont understand ,is Lazerus still alive now?

CTZonEdit

05-15-2009, 04:11 PM

I, dont understand ,is Lazerus still alive now?

No he died again.

So that means that he either violated the bible (as some believe) or he was never really "dead" past the point of God resuscitating him (as Core has pointed out).

Knowing the difference bewteen resurrection and resuscitation are key to understanding this.

roman8

05-15-2009, 05:52 PM

but Jesus himself said Lazerus is dead, so he must of been dead, right?

kay-gee

05-15-2009, 08:26 PM

Of course he was dead. dead as a door nail!

He was was given life back, but NOT resurrected. When one is resurrected they don't die again.

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-15-2009, 10:18 PM

Of course he was dead. dead as a door nail!

He was was given life back, but NOT resurrected. When one is resurrected they don't die again.

all the best...
OK. Then only Christ has been resurrected to date. That means those resurrected in Revelation have not been resurrected yet and thus Revelation is future, by demand. Yes or no?

kay-gee

05-15-2009, 10:21 PM

Confused...sorry

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-15-2009, 10:22 PM

Confused...sorry

all the best...
No problem. Confused over what?

kay-gee

05-15-2009, 10:37 PM

Over the question. What exactly am I being asked?

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-15-2009, 10:43 PM

Over the question. What exactly am I being asked?

all the best...
Is Christ the only one resurrected to date?

Are those resurrected in Revelation future or historical? If historical when?

kay-gee

05-16-2009, 08:35 AM

CoreIssue

05-16-2009, 10:51 AM

Over the question. What exactly am I being asked?

all the best...
Is Christ the only one resurrected to date?

Are those resurrected in Revelation future or historical? If historical when?

To the first question I will say yes.

To the second...I dont know...please give chapter and verse and I will study it.

all the best...
You already have a key one that the resurrection is when Christ returns. He does not return until the Rapture and you see resurrected and rewarded saints beginning in Revelation 4, when the Church covenant lampstands are now gone, after the Raptured Church and cast into the Trib verses in Revelation 3, not before. You see the Two Witnesses resurrected and taken at Mid Trib and in Revelation 20 you see statement on the First Resurrection of the saints.

Not a single reference to a resurrected and glorified saint before Revelation. Yes, references to a future resurrection before, but none actually resurrected.

Look back on the verses I provided, they eliminate every raised saint referenced in the OT and NT before Revelation as being resurrected. Paul stated this well after the claimed timing of Revelation by Amils, you and others, which is used to say there are already resurrected saints.

Yet more proof your positions on Revelation, Israel and such are wrong.

If any have been resurrected then Christ has already returned, which he has not.

This is an area where those who try to claim there has already been resurrected saints have to create special qualifiers, exemptions, exceptions and more. But Paul plainly said ONLY Christ currently and the saints FUTURE, at his return.

Study the Wedding Custom (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1698). It is why you see the Church at the beginning of Revelation and at the Second Coming, but not inbetween.

Use the Online Bible link above and search resurrect to find all the verses on the issue. Again, all point future.

roman8

05-16-2009, 03:19 PM

This is a very confusing thread, is there any way to simplify this?

maybe I just need more time to read when I dont have a baby on my lap. but I am really confused

CoreIssue

05-16-2009, 04:40 PM

This is a very confusing thread, is there any way to simplify this?

maybe I just need more time to read when I dont have a baby on my lap. but I am really confused
On which part exactly? Covered a bunch of ground. :D

Jump in here anytime CTZ. :tiphat:

kay-gee

05-16-2009, 05:20 PM

CoreIssue

05-16-2009, 08:01 PM

It's all like a bunch of Chinese to me. You know I don't do prophetic stuff well. Sometimes I think you are assigning belief systems to me that I am not even aware of. We started off talking about Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, who was raised from the dead. He was DEAD and Jesus raised him from the dead. I can only assume he died again. That's as far as I go!

all the best...
Running away from yet another issue where your stated beliefs are again refuted.

Don't claim to be a Bible student when you just want to believe what you want, tell it to others but go unchallenged and refuse to deal with solid refutations.

You DID say prior those raised when Christ was resurrected where resurrected. Lazarus is but one part of a bigger subject.

This issue ties into your stated beliefs the events of Revelation and the 70th Week of Daniel were fulfilled when Christ died. It refutes it.

Let the Rapture, Trib, Israel and such come up again and you will be right there saying no, no, no. Rest assured this topic will come back when you do. ;)

kay-gee

05-16-2009, 11:27 PM

I'm not seeing how it ties back to tribs, raptures, and Israel etc...

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-16-2009, 11:37 PM

I'm not seeing how it ties back to tribs, raptures, and Israel etc...

all the best...
Because you have said Revelation isn't future but before 70 AD when Christ was resurrected, but it talks about resurrected saints in Heaven and on the earth during the time Revelation covers.

Because if at the time of Christ's resurrection there were resurrected saints back then Paul is wrong. If future then your beliefs on the issue are wrong. So which is it since you cannot have it both ways?

kay-gee

05-17-2009, 01:06 AM

I said that?

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-17-2009, 09:53 AM

I said that?

all the best...
Yes! In the debates with Ltanner and such. He believes it and you agreed with him and backed him. Others believe it and you agreed with them.

Now, I ask again, when is the First Resurrection, when does the resurrection of saints begin? Already done or future when Christ returns as Paul states?

kay-gee

05-17-2009, 07:32 PM

CoreIssue

05-17-2009, 08:01 PM

Sorry. I don't remember engaging in a conversation about resurrection. It may have been Ltanner. I was in agreement with some of his things for sure, particularly the temple and the future of Israel, but I don't recall.
As for my own belief, I would say at the judgement, which is yes, still future.

all the best...
OK. It was there, he said at the time of Christ and you agreed. But that was then and this is now.

But no, the saints are not resurrected at the White Throne Judgment. There are two resurrections and only those of the First are blessed.
Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life
This is at the Second Coming at the end of the Trib. and you see already resurrected, glorified and rewarded on Thrones, the Church/Wife of Christ.

And at the First Seal beginning the Trib you see resurrected, glorified and rewarded Israel before the Throne.

Then at Mid you see the Two Witnesses resurrected and grabbed up to Heaven.

The First Resurrection was on the Day of the Lord, a period of the Rapture/First Seal through the destruction of the current earth.

and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Resurrected and glorified saints on this earth for 1,000 years during the reign of Christ.

5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
Rest means a different resurrection.

This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Only the Blessed in the First Resurrection. First means there is at least one more and rest means there is just one more. And blessed in the First means the rest are not blessed.Satan's Doom

7When the thousand years are over,
Been more than a thousand years so Amil doctrine is out. And 1,000 years after the Second Coming. So most assuredly future.
Satan will be released from his prison 8
Not in prison now. Stated he is the Accuser before the Throne of God elsewhere.
and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.
This is the Short Time of Satan.
But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
End of this earth. And clearly shown in 2 Peter 3 there is another Thief in the Night happening, a final Resurrection and Rapture of the last saints on the earth, but all part of the Day of the Lord, which term applies in OT and NT to the Rapture, Trib, Second Coming, MK and Short time. One day, with the Greek and Hebrew meaning of Day a very long period of time that is stipulated in length by the 1,000 years.
[QUOTE] 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Day of the Lord is a specific Day.

9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.

A descriptive for the Rapture that begins the Trib described as coming in the clouds unseen and resurrecting and snatching away the saint up to and including those living on the earth at that moment.
The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.a]" class="footnote">[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-30517a)]
Greek literally means reduced to its smallest components.

11Since everything will be destroyed in this way,
Destroyed completely. Not purged or cleansed, but gone.

what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.b]" class="footnote">[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-30519b)]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

The whole of the universe gone. Not just the earth.
[QUOTE]The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Then, meaning next, after the Day of the Lord the Second Resurrection occurs.

You never see any reference in the Bible saying saints judged for salvation. Says judged for rewards.

The damned are still accountable for their sin and are judged accordingly for eternal punishment.

No way to reject a future Trib and MK, this no way to reject the return of Israel as well as the Rapture and Resurrecton being future.

kay-gee

05-17-2009, 08:59 PM

CoreIssue

05-17-2009, 10:02 PM

Sorry, but I'm not getting it. All that stuff overloads my circuits. All I know for sure is Jesus will appear one day, and it will be game over. Judgement and then heaven or Hell. Heaven for the believers that endured to the end. Hell for those who rejected Christ.

all the best...
OK. But again, saints do not get judged for anything but rewards. The damned for punishment. Saint resurrect first and the damned second. Saints first when this earth still exists and the damned after it is gone.

No works involved in salvation. Works result from salvation, they do not give salvation.

And no, when Christ appears it is not game over immediately. Have to wait a thousand years more while he rules here first. :tiphat:

Now, remember you said you don't get it before you start making pronouncements of what is true in future threads until you do get it. Not fair to those trying to get answers to make pronouncement about you admittedly don't understand, meaning personal opinion, not Biblical fact. :D

kay-gee

05-18-2009, 12:06 AM

CoreIssue

05-18-2009, 12:43 AM

But the pre-mill position has too many components and sub-components to understand. Revelation was written to a first century audience. It should be no more or no less easy to figure out then it was then.
My belief is simple to the point and works for me. Christ returns. Judgement. Heaven, hell. The End

all the best...
False. As with Daniel who was told his prophecy would be understood when the time was right. And that is now.

Nowhere does it say Revelation was written solely for the understanding of the 1st Century nor is there anything in there they did't have enough information to understand back then.

No, Pre-Mill does not have too many components. Nor is that an excuse to go with Amil, which just rejects literal and slaps their own convoluted unprovable meaning upon.

Good night, KG, Ltanner even said whole sections of the OT were to be disregarded because they were supposedly annulled. What a lame way to dump what does not fit a doctrine.

Your belief is erroneous because it what YOU are comfortable with, not what the Bible says. And no disrespect intended, but it is arrogance to to tell others you have it right just because of your comfort zone.

kay-gee

05-18-2009, 09:12 AM

But the things that I believe, are the things are the things that all can agree on. Even you. Someday there will be an end to all things. GOD WINS. Heaven and Hell will be eternal. That is the nut shell version of what I take from Revelation, and it is all I need to know. God will take care of the details. All the other in between stuff is to open to interpretation of men. Won't you agree?... there are several teachings and predictions being made even within one sub component of millenial doctrine. That just isn't for me. I take the route of easiest understanding. No dis-respect toward you millenial people. It works for you and that's cool.
I have to go back and examine Ltanners stuff again. I agreed with him on some things, not because he said it, but because it made the most sense to me in light of scripture. I don't think I can agree with him on all things. Remember, I spent most of that discussion as an observer!

all the best...

CoreIssue

05-18-2009, 10:22 AM

But the things that I believe, are the things are the things that all can agree on.
Man, are you not paying attention. We are colliding right now because there is disagreement. You have collided with many of us in several threads because we do not agree.
Even you.
:eek: Here I am telling you that you are wrong and you make that statement? What gives with you, KG?
Someday there will be an end to all things. GOD WINS.
Correct.
Heaven and Hell will be eternal.
NO! Hell is NOT eternal. It ends and the Lake of Fire is eternal. This earth and the heavens end with a New Earth and New Heavens eternal.
That is the nut shell version of what I take from Revelation,
And you are wrong and incomplete.
and it is all I need to know.
Really? All the erroneous thinking you have is just fine, Bible or no Bible rejecting it?

This is why John said there is a special blessing for those who study prophecy. The understand far more than people like you do, about all aspects of the Bible and life.
God will take care of the details.
Agree. Including no rewards for those who unsound doctrine as you are doing.
All the other in between stuff is to open to interpretation of men.
Everything is open to interpretation of men. You do not even get salvation by repentance by faith through grace correct. You add works.
Won't you agree?...
No. You are seeking an excuse to not have to study.
there are several teachings and predictions being made even within one sub component of millenial doctrine.
Agree. And if you actually studied you see the range is from literal to completely non-literal. From Pre-Trib to complete idealism. Amil being just short of idealism.

You don't want the literal truth. You want your comfort zone.
That just isn't for me.
You do prefer your comfort zone. Well, the Bible has a lot of discomfort in it.
I take the route of easiest understanding.
You don't have understanding. More excuses and non facts.
No dis-respect toward you millenial people. It works for you and that's cool.
No. There is no truth in your liberal thinking of many truths and many roads to truth.
I have to go back and examine Ltanners stuff again. I agreed with him on some things, not because he said it, but because it made the most sense to me in light of scripture.
False statement completely. You don't study, but go with your comfort zone. So it made sense to you per your personal desires and wants, not in light of the Bible, which you do not study on these issues to base an opinion on the Bible from.
I don't think I can agree with him on all things. Remember, I spent most of that discussion as an observer!

all the best...
One that stepped out and commented when it hit a point you strongly disliked or liked. And when challenged to back it Biblically never did.

Your doctrine is all about your comfort zone, KG. Plain and simple.

denise04

11-27-2009, 10:06 PM

ive saw angels several times also when i was young i saw jesus it wasnt a dream i saw them while awake

CoreIssue

11-27-2009, 10:53 PM

ive saw angels several times also when i was young i saw jesus it wasnt a dream i saw them while awake
You mean Jesus showed himself in Heaven to you? Curious.

denise04

11-28-2009, 08:56 AM

yes i saw jesus in skuy reaching out to me on way home from fishin trip

CoreIssue

11-28-2009, 09:51 AM

yes i saw jesus in skuy reaching out to me on way home from fishin trip
Interesting.

Sometimes how he chooses to act is a mystery. But he always has the right reasons.

a.baker

11-28-2009, 01:37 PM

yes i saw jesus in skuy reaching out to me on way home from fishin trip
Interesting.

Sometimes how he chooses to act is a mystery. But he always has the right reasons.

:nod:

InTheWind

11-28-2009, 02:44 PM

Just me but i`ve always had doubts about Jesus appearing to people, i don`t think He is in the habit of doing that now days. I think we were left with His word to give us what we need. I on the other hand have no doubt Angels can appear to people, knowing or not knowing they are Angels.
The demons definitely have a bad habit of appearing to people.