FALL OF AMERICA. FALL OF THE WEST

[lighthouse]

FALL OF AMERICA. FALL OF THE WEST
By Jan Willem van der Hoeven

Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets. (Luke 6:26)

Despite the overwhelming and unbelievable euphoria accompanying the election of America's new president, the sad truth is that the very opposite of what the enthralled millions of Obama supporters - both in the United States and elsewhere - have hoped would happen as a result will actually become the reality.

This truth is too bitter for most of us. Even among many of those Christians who may have voted for the - to them - more friendly team of McCain and Palin, after all their hopes to the contrary, still do not really understand the utter seriousness of what has just taken place.

America has fallen, never to rise again to its former glory and strength. It is as what happened to the glory and splendor of Rome. I have wept about this, and reading now some of the Christian commentators trying to put the typical 'let's not lose hope' seal upon what has happened, I believe this will only speed up this degradation of America's society.

As a European, I years ago saw this same process happen to most of the Continent - today a pagan, self-centered, de-Christianized and heavily Muslimized continent that has hardly any moral or military strength left. As was the case when Hitler's Nazi hordes overran Europe in 1939, so now it lies nearly totally defenseless against the aggressive designs of both Putin's revived "Soviet" Russia or the deep and dangerous Jihadic infiltration of ISLAM.

Obama, as President of the United States, will not this time send his "Eisenhower-"led U.S. marines to save Georgia, Ukraine or any other Putin-threatened European country, EVEN THOUGH most of these Europeans, utterly blind to what is coming their way, voted in their hearts for Obama to be the next president - "their president" - of the free world.

Israel, in spite of some prominent Jewish and even Israel-linked Obama advisors, will practically, (for all practical purposes) find itself alone in its fight for mere survival as a nation against the horrendous threats of a soon-to-be nuclear-armed Iran and the increasingly armed and fanatized Muslim world that surrounds Israel on all sides.

All that the new, fully Democrat-controlled U.S. administration with its inbuilt anti-war bias will do to alleviate Israel's fears is talk and talk and talk, just as the Europeans have fruitlessly done these last years. Israel will literally be left alone and stark naked vis-à-vis their ever more ferociously armed enemies. If the Israelis want to do anything they will be on their own. Even requesting the approval of the new Obama-led administration will be a mistake. He will opt for more talk, more sanctions, until the time will have passed for Israel to act preventively.

It is all very sad indeed. Very sad because there will not be a reverse in all this.

For truly-concerned believers to think things will be able to change again by, for instance, Sarah Palin running for president after four or eight years is fantasy. By then America will have, after four or eight years of Democratic rule, newly-placed and far more liberal judges on the Supreme Court; the country will have been so secularized and paganized that never again will there be enough of a conservative Christian bloc left among America's voters to even want a 'Christian president' back in the White House.

Thus America has fallen, never again to rise to its former height; and with her fall the whole free world will suffer. And only few understand and are weeping about this because most DON'T WANT TO SEE, or quickly search for a stereotyped word: Let's not lose hope. Hereby they precisely cause Christians not to hear the holy and fearful voice of God's Alarm, that it is all over now for the moment.

Jesus Himself spoke such words over His nation and city. No stone would be left upon the other. The prophets of old spoke the very same words about their own nation, words which few preachers today in the U.S. or the West would dare to preach!

Thus says the Lord God: 'A disaster, a singular disaster; behold, it has come! An end has come, the end has come; it has dawned for you; behold, it has come! Doom has come to you, you who dwell in the land; the time has come, a day of trouble is near, and not of rejoicing in the mountains.' (Ezekiel 7:5-7)

O my soul, my soul! I am pained in my very heart! My heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because you have heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried, for the whole land is plundered. Suddenly my tents are plundered, and my curtains in a moment. How long will I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? (Jeremiah 4:19-21)

It is because we have grown up in an often sugar-coated Christianity of 'God is love' that we nearly feel obliged to be positive in the end.

Yes, positive we can be in spite of all that will soon happen to us and our nations on earth because we all have, if we endure through it all, a heavenly future. As Jesus said: When all these (terrifying) things begin to happen lift up your eyes to heaven from where I soon will be coming on the clouds with great glory and majesty. But, here on earth, He also said: 'You will be hated, hated by all nations for my Name sake!'

That's the time we are entering now. Where not that long ago, 60 percent of America's youth was still God-fearing, today that number stands at less than 10 percent! There are, in the upcoming next generations, not enough believers left to bring the change in America that "positive minded" Christians still want to pray for. It is finished, just as it was for Israel in days past and few, very few are willing even to face up to this sad and painful truth.

Already you can feel it in the air: the hatred, anger and intolerance of many who have reveled in the election of their messiah-like Obama, the man who promises them - the young and the old - change that is not based on personal change by repenting from sin and evil, but a deceitful promise of change, while every one can live it up according to his and her own desires without necessitating a change in their own, personal behavior.

Under Obama, nearly everything will go. The killing of the unborn, the perversion of sexuality, the very abominations that brought down the worlds of Sodom and Gomorrah, of Rome and the Greek civilization, will bring down America and, with it, the West.

Is there then no respite at all any more?

God's Word again and again holds forth that the nation that shall refuse to serve His purpose with Israel shall perish. He states it baldly in Isaiah 60:12:

For the nation and kingdom which will not serve you shall perish, and those nations shall be utterly ruined.

And says through Jeremiah 30:10-11:

'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the Lord, 'nor be dismayed, O Israel; for behold, I will save you from afar, and your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, and no one shall make him afraid. For I am with you,' says the Lord, 'to save you; though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, and will not let you go altogether unpunished.'
http://www.israelmybeloved.com/channel/word_from_zion/article/205

[CoreIssue]

Yep. We did the numbers run before. I doubt 3% are now actually saved and true Christians.

I am doing what I can in my small corner of the world called my home region. It has impact for a large number of people, but insignificant in the world scheme of things.

[kay-gee]

It's all the Lord expects.

all the best...

[Eutychus]

For myself - I have come in the last year of unemployment and the discouragement of the emotional roller coaster in the job hunt market - to the place where my presupposition for life is "keep your eyes on the gratitude and not circumstances". Praise God for HIS goodness in your life.
I have been through this doom mindset before with the issues; Viet Nam (which took me years to get over),Y2K and other things that took me into a cynicism and defeated mindset which did me absolutely no good. I am not in anyway saying to hide from the world or live in a christian isolationist bubble. Dietrich Boenhoffer kept his faith and was hanged by the Nazis about a month before the war in Europe was over; but his message never gave in to the circumstances he was in. We must be salt and light to the world we live in; no one wants to hear a message that Christianity has hope for a future afterlife, but this life is going to be depressing. God did not honor the naysayers - He honors the man of faith -
Nu 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it.
- Nu 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it.
So reguardless of what happens around you , speak the message of the hope in Christ that can give you peace in the storm. The giddy prosperity preaching is a false massage to those in the grip of depression, but the Bible teaches the learning to be at peace with whatever state you are in. The attitude that overcomes the gloom. God has not changed because the enemy is getting a firmer grip on the politics of America. That has been inching forward since the 60s, and sometimes in big leaps, we are probably going to see changes we dread, but America is not Christianity and America could go down but Christianity will still have the good news.
Be a Caleb.

[kay-gee]

Paise God for that post Eutychus. I have been preaching that since I first came to CTZ. I have been continually kicked about like the proverbial football for it. I'm not sure exactly why. I dont think it is such a hard concept for Christians to grasp. I guess it is! You are correct in saying also, that the fate of America and the fate of Christianity is tied together in peoples minds. America is just another earthly empire that has risen and fallen like so many other empires of history. We as citizens of heaven must keep the faith that our finest hour is yet to come.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

KG. The difference is you claim nothing new is going one. It is. You deny we are in the End Times, we are.

You have been told many times that believing we are in the End Times does not mean we stop trying. The message is the same whether seen as a salvage mission or a revival.

What you have been preaching is acceptance of liberal theology as if it were the Gospel. And rejection of literal Bible.

If you cannot see Christianity in collapse it is because you have embraced too much the theology of the 7th church of Revelation.

By the way, one of the prophecies of the End is when people stop looking for his coming. Amil, Idealism, Liberation Theology, Covenant Theology and the whole list of non literal Bible beliefs have stopped looking.

Think about it while you keep denying the restoration of Israel while it is sitting over there today.

[Eutychus]

You keep making wild assumtions that everybody who is not caught up in a kind of rapture mania is not scriptural. Why are you fighting the positive message. I was in that state when Hal Lindsay said that a Biblical generation was 40 yrs and the restoration of Isreal in 47 was the start of the end times and
Edgar C. Whisenant (September 25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_25), 1932 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932) – May 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_16), 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001)), a former NASA engineer and Bible student, who predicted the Rapture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture) would occur in 1988, sometime between Sept. 11 and Sept. 13. He published two books about this: 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Could Be in 1988 and On Borrowed Time. Eventually, 300,000 copies of 88 Reasons were mailed free of charge to ministers across America, and 4.5 million copies were sold in bookstores and elsewhere. Whisenant was quoted as saying "Only if the Bible is in error am I wrong; and I say that to every preacher in town," and "[I]f there were a king in this country and I could gamble with my life, I would stake my life on Rosh Hashana 88." [1] (http://www.isitso.org/guide/whise.html)
The main message of prophecy is to bring people to repentence not to predict the future whether you are a pretrib dispensationalist or a predarist (sp) (by the way I am not a predarist but I have studied all the different schools of interpretation and have found that the one thing that is true is that no one knows when the end will be. The church in 70AD had the end time mindset and the people who thought that Napoleon was the antichrist had a lot of argument. Margaret McDonald who had the vision in 1830 that there would be a 2 part second coming which Edward Irving and John Darby shaped into the modern rapture teaching put into the Scoffield Bible as if it were the absolute message of the word of God : said that the world was so evil that the second coming would have to come soon.--- I anticipate a scathing diatribe of why I am not Biblical and alot of excathedra theology. Surprise me with a recognition of the message that Jesus himself taught repentance and how to live.
His answer to the question of the end was that only the Father knows.
In the meen time we are to Jesus Christ and the good news. We are to have a message that lifts people up . The end will take care of itself and we have to live today. The thing I am trying to say is that ; I was sure the end was near in the 60s and early 70s and all that didn't help me deal with the issues of day to day life.
What does is the simple Gospel, not alot of complicated teaching on prophecy.
The church has lost alot of its impact by taking its emphasis off the message for today and the attitude of the mind of Christ and is looking to much at escaping in the end of time. This post is not an attack on anyone who enjoys thinking about prophecy - it is an urging to focus on the Christian presuppositions that give us strength for today. God Bless All in this discussion. Soli Deo Gloria.

[kay-gee]

The end times stuff has become an obsession for many. Escapism perhaps. The whole idea that we are the ones to see Christ return and all the excitement that an event like that would entail. Reasons ar numerous I suppose. Plays on peoples fears and sells books. I am not ever going to say that the Bible does not have a prophetic component. The "end" will take care of itself. It will be at the time of the Lords choosing. He could have come in the first century if He had so desired. He could come before I finish this post or He may not come for another millenium. Why do people want to force The Lord into a time table of their human choosing? I don't see a lot of endtime teaching and preaching by the apostles...they concerned themselves with the "gospel" and spreding it to an unsaved world. In the end, it boils down to one event and one event only...You will face the judgement bar of God! (Heb9:27)
I know there is a CTZ bullet coming my way...but I have to say what gotta say.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

All I have to say is there isn`t any one here that I know that isn`t spreading the word and trying to save people as much as anyone else and shame on any of you that are saying we don`t. God put a whole lot of prophecy in the Bible for a reason, so that we recognize the times we are in and that when we see the things prophesied we know that He is at the door.
The Bible even says that we should be continually watching for the return of the Lord for us, that is our Blessed hope. Why would anyone want to be here during the Tribulation .
A lot of scoffers in the world. :(

[Eutychus]

I agree ! And I don't want to insinuate that anyone on this forum is not doing their part to uplift the Gospel. There are different views on prophesy but only one Gospel; I would like to apologise if anyone feels like I have attacked their school of eschatological teaching.
I am promoting a simple but proactive daily Gospel witness. The society is dying for a people of profound integrity with the answers to their pains and despair. Jesus is the answer to the world. Many cultures and religion have prophesies; what the unsaved world needs to see is the
difference between Jesus and the others. The unsaved world can't understand Revelation, they need to see the example of the first century church -"See how they Love one another", not those Christians are good at arguing amongst themselves. If I die today - that is the end of the world for me, so I would do well to focus on thanking the Lord for His goodness and extending as much kindness as I can while still standing
strong in the effort to prevent the enemy from erasing our Christian Heritage from the culture. We are the defenders of the faith and we do have what the hurting are looking for if we aren't to uppety to get our hands dirty.

[InTheWind]

A thought came upon me the other day which is nothing new, Remove the light from the world and what is left. Darkness.
IMO the state of affairs we find ourselves in this country comes from exactly that, we have pushed God out of the country and darkness has taken over.
Someone I said that too said, no it`s greed that is the problem, which I replied wrong if everyone was a true Christian there would be no greed.
We need people showing the light more now as ever before but i`m afraid it is to late and irreversible. I feel we are at the very brink of the trib starting and the AC coming on the scene. God has been more than patient with this country but it failed to listen, instead of people standing up for Christ they stayed silent. They allowed the minority to take away the meaning of Christmas and the teaching of the bible.
We sat by and watched the aliens flock into our country and speak their language and fly their flags and do nothing about it.
We`ve allowed gay marrige and gays to become pastors.
We needed more than seed planting we need people to have guts to stand up for America and shout the word and make it clear this is a Christian Nation.
Now our young generation has voted in a man that is pro-abortion, for gay rights, want`s to disarm the entire country and who knows what else.
They voted because they wanted to make history of a black man becoming President and think they`er going to get a hand out.
This nation has lost it`s identity and will never be the same again.
Preach the word, yes, but preaching the true word not a bunch of feel good nonsense and deception in order to take peoples money.
Satan has done a good job in this country of making Christianity look like a war between a hundred different denominations.
Yes the churches that teach prophecy argue about who is right and people say well everyone interprets verses different and nothing gets accomplished except cults getting formed , which then people flock to because they hear what they want to hear to make them feel good.
IMO the church has lost its purpose in the world and we are getting real close to the time where preaching the word does no good.
Grim outlook yes but one that is reality imo.
Should we give up no, should we stop preaching no, but saying that prophecy isn`t important is foolish. Don`t be caught without oil in your lamp because you didn`t pay attention to the signs that God put in the bible and in our hearts to see.
Someone at some time is going to be the ones that see the Lord come for us.
Apology excepted and not necessarily needed i just wanted to make it clear that these people here care about truth and salvation more than most of the people on other boards that i`ve seen.
God Bless ya all and may God be with you in these trying times.

[CoreIssue]

Amorality is running rampant. Any one who dares call himself a Christian but shrugs off abortion and gay rights, in example, as no problem being supported by any government is either not a Christian are terribly ignorant of what the Bible literally teaches.

Indeed there are many who believe the Bible is not literal, a social document that changes, etc. Excuses, for when you make such stands the Bible is neither Truth or dependable.

[Eutychus]

I heartily agree with most of what you are saying but lets remember that the Lord said to Isaih - So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ; and not give in to the aparent circumstances of our time. Communist China has been much more into abortion and Jesus hating than the US, but the church is saving more people than ever in China. Things are bad yes but the
US still has a strong and Godly base of people who for all their faults are doing more to help in the world than any other country. People like y'all who have the wisdom to discuss openly and learn from one another in a loving spirit. God may be about to hold our feet to the fire in ways we have never experienced,
but the fire refines and makes purer. Never give up the Blessed Hope for today, each and every today,
until God decides it is time to close the book.

[InTheWind]

Don`t worry my mind is confident that God is in control and we have to carry on best we can.
Yes people are making a big difference in countries where people aren`t so fortunate as most here and are willing to listen.
We are still uno number one but we`re losing the battle here imo. :(.

[CoreIssue]

You keep making wild assumtions that everybody who is not caught up in a kind of rapture mania is not scriptural.
Reading figuratively and not literally is not scriptural. Plain and simple.
Why are you fighting the positive message.
If you mean Christ died on the cross for your sins. I never fight that.

But, if you mean the Church is going to dominate the earth and usher in a Christian world, that is not Biblical or positive. It is a political statement of elevation that backs the thinking of many that the Church wants to rule the earth and take away freedoms.
I was in that state when Hal Lindsay said that a Biblical generation was 40 yrs
Generation can mean 40 years but it also means a segment of humanity with a commonality. The stated commonality is the generation that sees the restoration of Israel will see the Second Coming. Self defining statement.
and the restoration of Isreal in 47 was the start of the end times and
Edgar C. Whisenant (September 25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_25), 1932 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932) – May 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_16), 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001)), a former NASA engineer and Bible student, who predicted the Rapture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture) would occur in 1988, sometime between Sept. 11 and Sept. 13. He published two books about this: 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Could Be in 1988 and On Borrowed Time. Eventually, 300,000 copies of 88 Reasons were mailed free of charge to ministers across America, and 4.5 million copies were sold in bookstores and elsewhere. Whisenant was quoted as saying "Only if the Bible is in error am I wrong; and I say that to every preacher in town," and "[i]f there were a king in this country and I could gamble with my life, I would stake my life on Rosh Hashana 88." [1] (http://www.isitso.org/guide/whise.html)
And the Bible says no man knows the time. He is predicting a time, thus he was wrong by definition and demand.
The main message of prophecy is to bring people to repentence
Really? And where did you get that from?
not to predict the future whether you are a pretrib dispensationalist or a predarist (sp) (by the way I am not a predarist but I have studied all the different schools of interpretation and have found that the one thing that is true is that no one knows when the end will be.
There are a lot of time related prophecies. So, the clock did start ticking in 1948, but a generation meant any time from then until, in example, to 2048 if someone born in 1948 lived to 100 and was the last person alive from that generation.
The church in 70AD had the end time mindset
But the prophetic requirements were not met so it could not have been.
and the people who thought that Napoleon was the antichrist had a lot of argument.
But failed in the fact Israel had not been restored, in example.
Margaret McDonald who had the vision in 1830 that there would be a 2 part second coming which Edward Irving and John Darby shaped into the modern rapture teaching put into the Scoffield Bible as if it were the absolute message of the word of God :
Really? And the writings from the times of the so-called Church Fathers, actually meaning of the RCC, about the Pre-Trib Rapture?

Those claims about McDonald creating the Pre-Trib Rapture were done by mainly Post-Tribbers and backed by those into Replacement Theology.

By the way. I don't believe in a Two Part Second Coming. The Rapture is at the beginning, the Second Coming at the end.

Non Pre-Tribbers keep trying to reinvent what we believe to make their thinking look better.
said that the world was so evil that the second coming would have to come soon.--- I anticipate a scathing diatribe of why I am not Biblical and alot of excathedra theology. Surprise me with a recognition of the message that Jesus himself taught repentance and how to live.
He did teach that, and a whole lot more. The Gospel, death, burial and resurrection was the main message. How to live, prophecy and other issues were secondary.
His answer to the question of the end was that only the Father knows.
Parsed statement. In such as Matthew 24 he said a whole lot more as well, as in how history would go up to the Rapture.
In the meen time we are to Jesus Christ and the good news. We are to have a message that lifts people up . The end will take care of itself and we have to live today. The thing I am trying to say is that ; I was sure the end was near in the 60s and early 70s and all that didn't help me deal with the issues of day to day life.
Which totally misses the point.

And yea, I was a teen in the 60s and in the late 60s, early 70s, do intel work for Nam and Russia. Not exactly a picnic nor one that left fond memories.
What does is the simple Gospel, not alot of complicated teaching on prophecy.
You miss the point entirely.

But yet you do have a doctrine on the future. So don't pretend you only look at the Gospel.

Revelation and other prophecy was written for a purpose. It contains a blessing for those who study it. So you are told there is more going on in the sanctification of a saint than thinking about the Gospel alone.

Most who reject it are suffering from a spill over effect from Catholicism, meaning the Church is supreme and Israel was minor. Not true. Pride and ego against the idea of the Church Age ending because it was shrinking on the earth. But is is right there in the Bible. Israel will return.
The church has lost alot of its impact by taking its emphasis off the message for today and the attitude of the mind of Christ and is looking to much at escaping in the end of time.
No. And we are warned when people stop looking for his return that is when he will return. Most not only have stopped looking, but scoff at the whole idea.
This post is not an attack on anyone who enjoys thinking about prophecy - it is an urging to focus on the Christian presuppositions that give us strength for today. God Bless All in this discussion. Soli Deo Gloria.
So, believing in the Rapture is a weakness? Hmmmm.

Fascinating the lengths of non literalism people will go to in order to escape the teaching on the Trib and Rapture. Amils, Post-Mils and others try to turn Israel in Revelation into the Church. Very non literal. Historicists and Preterist turn it into figurative speech to which they assign different meanings.

Problem with both is neither camp can prove their claims. They just make the claims as if they were fact.

No. I will read the literal words and let them speak for themselve. Using the norms of language, word meaning and grammar is the way we read. The way language works.

[CoreIssue]

I heartily agree with most of what you are saying but lets remember that the Lord said to Isaih - So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. ; and not give in to the aparent circumstances of our time. Communist China has been much more into abortion and Jesus hating than the US, but the church is saving more people than ever in China. Things are bad yes but the
US still has a strong and Godly base of people who for all their faults are doing more to help in the world than any other country. People like y'all who have the wisdom to discuss openly and learn from one another in a loving spirit. God may be about to hold our feet to the fire in ways we have never experienced,
but the fire refines and makes purer. Never give up the Blessed Hope for today, each and every today,
until God decides it is time to close the book.
And your problem with the time of that closing being near and the Rapture is means? The restoration of Israel and Church not being the final supreme work of God on this earth.

[kay-gee]

Sems like the preemies have some difficulties of their own being able to prove things! Especially when some of its biggest proponents write books claiming all these fantastical things to occur. A few decades pass and none of it happened! The issue of "proof" is a non-starter.

all the best...

[lighthouse]

ok keep to the topic
those that want to argue pretrib vs??
do it in your own topic
in the correct forum
i am about to move those threads that do not keep to the topic
thank you

and kg
stop attacking people

[Eutychus]

Yes - Amen - Lets get off the argument and picking each sentence out to surmise about what the other person meant for attack dog purposes.

[kay-gee]

Who did I attack?

all the best...

[MRG]

I Believe The Modern Christian Has lost His Backbone, As the Great Falling Away is Starting, Many are Fed up With Like Warm Christianity. I Believe this is the Year, the Flase Prophet will Do His Dance and Lead the World into the Anti-Christ's Hands, We all See the Stage Being Built Every Day, When the Antichrist will Declare, That all Forms of Faith only lead to War and conflict, And Will Ban all Christians an Claim an open Hunting Season on them. We are at the End of the reing of mankind on earth, Where are the John the Baptist, Enochs, Elijah, The Word of God Will not Return Void. All will be fufilled as Stated, Whoa America if She Stands in the Way of the Prophetic Clock, She will Get Struck Down and no longer able to fill the role, of the Worlds Police Man. I have been Storing up water in jugs for the last 6 months, And Stashing back Food, Prepare, For the Lord Will come Swiftly to remove the Salt of the Earth so the Evil can Wax wicked, Hope for the Best / Plan for the Worst.

[CoreIssue]

It will get worse before the Rapture. Then those left behind will really suffer.

[MRG]

Its Gonna Get Worse than We Ever Thought Of, The Slaying of the Remaining Christians Will Make the Rome Colossum look like a Picnic, The Angel Told St John on the island of Patmos to Seal up what the Seven Thunders Said, For they were For the End Times, Whats Posted in Revlations Will Raise the Hair on The Back of Your Neck, But What John Saw in the Seven Thunders will Be Devastating. There Are Many Diasters That Are Going to Hit Earth Than We Ever Concieved of, I hate to Paint such a Gloom Picture, But Its Bad, The Earthquakes are going to Ravage the Planet. Take a Gander at this. The Plates on Earth Shift Causing the Land Masses to Raise certain spots under the sea back up above Sea level So You can Walk From Flordia to Cuba. We Will end up in a War, With Mexico over the New Land Mass Rich in Oil, And Of Corce, Cuba will want a piece, Ive Been Predicting this for 40 Years. The Black Gold Wars. We will Be so Consumed Putting America Back together that We wont Have time to play the Worlds Police-Man. As the Antichrist gains control over all of europe. I have seen Many Visions of the Great Cities in America layed Waste in Ruins. Parts of Texas under Water, The Area of Destruction is so wide and Vast, You Really Dont Want to Know. Fill up a Water Jug every day, Please I beg You.

[CoreIssue]

The Rapture will occur before the Trib, so the Trib saints are the ones slaughtered, not Church. Nor do all die. Some live on into the MK.

For sure the Trib will be a mess, mass destruction and all, including in the US. But wars with Mexico and such just are not Biblical. They do not fit.

The Bible says the AC is turned back, Mid Trib, by the power of the West. Only the US has that power.

Your visions are not lining up Biblically.

[InTheWind]

I get real nervouse when someone says they have a biunch of visions, don`t think that`s very reliable either.

[MRG]

Well The Scriptures Does Support What I Say , There Shall Ne Wars and Rumors Of Wars. And there is more that Befals the Earth than Whats Listed. For all the Books on earth Can not Hold All the Imformation of the Most High. But Those That Seek His Face Will Have Great things Revealed to Them, Time Will Tell If Im Right Or Wrong, Dont Matter to Me at All If What I see Is Wrong. I have lots of Water and Food Stored Up. A Earthquake Can Very Well Destroy the US interstate and Bridge System, Marooning Some Cities.
Proverbs 2:
My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
If Im Wrong So What , If Im Right, Then Please Store up extra water and food for saftey measures, Even If U get Raptured out it will Bless Someone and Can not Hurt Anything By Applying an Extra Measure of Saftey.
Many Did not Have the Bible to Consult when God Showed them Visions and Wrote them Down,
We were almost at war with Cuba in the Past, If a Earthquake Changes the Georaghpy Of Earth, Then What I say May very well be a Possibility as all Greedy Poverty Stricken Nations Race to Size Control of the Wealth that Black Gold Brings. Play it Safe and Store up some Extra Food and Water. just in case.

[InTheWind]

I agree on being ready for rough times and I feel we may see a lot of them before the rapture. Storing up on necessities only makes sense to me.
Because scientist agree I think there could be some big events in 2012 due to pole shift and solar storms.

[CoreIssue]

Prophecy is quite clear that the catastrophic events and wars will be during the Trib.

Christian, as in Church, is not found in the Trib. Never are all Christians wiped out, as you claim. Never are all Trib Saints wiped out, either.

Nor does any scripture lay out the wars and events you are claiming for the US. Those are from you, not the Bible.

It isn't an issue there will be terrible things, there will. The problem is your declaration of exact events that are not Biblically stated.

And the huge problem is that you are claiming prophetic visions of what the Bible does not allow. All Christians wiped out is none Biblical, thus your prophecies are automatically to be rejected.

[MRG]

Hold The Buss / I never Said all Christians Are Wiped Out, Do not Put Words Into My Writing's. The Book of Daniel Says Otherwise, All I said was what the Scriptures Has Stated, That a Persacution So Great It will Make Rome look like a Picnic. Yo Do Read it I assume ?
All There are Atrossities that can Smack Earth Outside of the Box of Trib. 911. Mt st Helen, Surley We dont put limits on the Hands of God ? Kartrina. There are Many Events to come that are not Listed, Surprise Surprise, Not only is He a Loving God But a Just God, A God of More Possible Demensions Than We or the Bible Can List or Comprehend. So what are You Saying Here That God is limited only to Whats Written in the 66 Books, Sureley Not. Assumption is the Mother of Evil. Ive Been Teaching The Scriptures Many Years.

Are to Trying to lure me into an Argument About the Mighty Power of the Almighty, His Son Jesus, And the Holy Spirit, I am very Well Grounded. And Have Been Forced to Remember the Scriptures From the Age Of 6. I am 57 now. One thing Ive Learned, Gods Ways and Plans are not all written Down, nor are they revealed to just anyone. He has his Reasons, Whom Am I to Tell Him he is restrained only to His Written Word. I would Be worse than a Fool.

I am Very long Fused, And can Debate with the Best, And Have.
Mabey I dont Belong Here, Seems to be a Touch of Tunnel Vision in the Ranks. Say So and I will Go. But Never try to put a Jacket on God Almighty. Your in For a Shock.

[CoreIssue]

Hold The Buss / I never Said all Christians Are Wiped Out, Do not Put Words Into My Writing's. The Book of Daniel Says Otherwise, All I said was what the Scriptures Has Stated, That a Persacution So Great It will Make Rome look like a Picnic. Yo Do Read it I assume ?
Here is your own words:
The Slaying of the Remaining Christians
No putting words in your mouth. You said it.
All There are Atrossities that can Smack Earth Outside of the Box of Trib. 911. Mt st Helen, Surley We dont put limits on the Hands of God ? Kartrina. There are Many Events to come that are not Listed, Surprise Surprise, Not only is He a Loving God But a Just God, A God of More Possible Demensions Than We or the Bible Can List or Comprehend. So what are You Saying Here That God is limited only to Whats Written in the 66 Books, Sureley Not. Assumption is the Mother of Evil. Ive Been Teaching The Scriptures Many Years.
Yes, there are atrocities. But no, the events you listed are on the scale of the Trib.

It also says that at the time of the Rapture it will be as the time of Noah and Lot. People just living their lives as normal, then slam, Rapture followed by Trib.

Yea, I have studied the Bible for 47 years and been teaching for several decades now.

And God sets the parameters in the Bible of his Plan. You are trying to step outside and add more to it than stated.

Many teach, but that does not mean they get it right.
Are to Trying to lure me into an Argument About the Mighty Power of the Almighty, His Son Jesus, And the Holy Spirit, I am very Well Grounded. And Have Been Forced to Remember the Scriptures From the Age Of 6. I am 57 now.
And I am 57 as well.
One thing Ive Learned, Gods Ways and Plans are not all written Down, nor are they revealed to just anyone. He has his Reasons, Whom Am I to Tell Him he is restrained only to His Written Word. I would Be worse than a Fool.
Ah yes. The prophet who knows beyond the scope and scale the Bible declares. Encountered many in my days.

Problem is, you guys all disagree with each other.

God gave us the scriptures for a reason. They set parameters, limits and means of testing claims. You would have us throw that away and assume you have been handed a whole new spectrum of Revelation.

Test all things against the scripture, we are told. If they abide, accept. If not, reject. A command, not a suggestion.

And do not believe for a second there are not Gifted people here. There are.
I am Very long Fused, And can Debate with the Best, And Have.
Mabey I dont Belong Here, Seems to be a Touch of Tunnel Vision in the Ranks. Say So and I will Go. But Never try to put a Jacket on God Almighty. Your in For a Shock.
Seem a bit short fused, actually.

Let us do this the correct way. Prove your case from the Bible.

If these catastrophes, on the scale you claim, are going to happen, then why are we told it will all be normal, every day life, then the Rapture and Trib will hit?

Nothing everyday about what you are claiming. Really.

The Bible contradicts itself?

Or, are you saying you are gifted, therefore we are just to take your word for your claims?

[kay-gee]

A huge outbreak of violence breaking out this week between Israel and Hamas. Fulfilment of prophecy?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

A huge outbreak of violence breaking out this week between Israel and Hamas. Fulfilment of prophecy?

all the best...
Yes. Prophecy says Israel will a source of great trouble to the world and especially the surrounding neighbors.

The violence and other issues of the Middle East will lead to the AC Peace Treaty that opens the Trib.

But it will not stop the violence. It will escalate, in the Trib, to all out war.

Ironically, Israel will have peace for 3.5 years before it hits them, while the nations around fight with the AC. Even Russia will get involved.

[MRG]

I see this site only wants to argue, I was hopeing to find open hearted believers, That know God is much bigger than the written Word. O God O God you can come out now Im gonna open the Bible and Let you out of your Box. No wonder this Site is so Dead. It Reeks of Aggenda, Only Those Who Seek His face in Truth will see the great Mystryies. Please Remove me from this Site. To Much Contention For Me. I have Seen More than Im willing to Say. Bye Bye. Here or their or in the Air.

[InTheWind]

I see this site only wants to argue, I was hopeing to find open hearted believers

No you wanted to find open hearted believers that believe you only. :(

And Kay-Gee there ya go again, how long has Israel been fighting it`s neighbors, for a long time. And it along with all the other violence you see in the world that has been going on since Adam is Tribulation. But not the Tribulation period. Why can`t you see the difference. :(

[CoreIssue]

I see this site only wants to argue, I was hopeing to find open hearted believers, That know God is much bigger than the written Word. O God O God you can come out now Im gonna open the Bible and Let you out of your Box. No wonder this Site is so Dead. It Reeks of Aggenda, Only Those Who Seek His face in Truth will see the great Mystryies. Please Remove me from this Site. To Much Contention For Me. I have Seen More than Im willing to Say. Bye Bye. Here or their or in the Air.
Hmmm. As ITW says, you wanted to come on as the prophet and enlighten us to your visions.

But we have no right to question or challenge when it conflicts with the Bible?

I see you have not had much success on other sites, as well.

Discuss if you want, we welcome that. But you have to prove you case, not just declare it.