Debate: Land promise to Israel

[Ltanner09]

Has Israel received the land promised?

Core and I will likely agree to the following:

1. The land promise was made to Abraham (Gen 12:1,12:7, 13;12-14, 17:8 )
The promise was unconditional.

2. Confirmed to Isaac, and later to Jacob

3. Most pre mill believe the fulfillment of the land promised is yet future.
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However, the land promise was fulfilled and we have biblical proof to that fact:

Joshua 21:43 (NKJV)
So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it.

There were conditions put into place upon Israel to remain in possession of the land.

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

God fulfilled His promise and gave Israel possession of the land. Israel broke the covenant and by doing so, lost their possession.

Not looking to start things out with a lengthy post, so I'll let Core reply.

[CoreIssue]

Has Israel received the land promised?

Core and I will likely agree to the following:

1. The land promise was made to Abraham (Gen 12:1,12:7, 13;12-14, 17:8 )
The promise was unconditional.

2. Confirmed to Isaac, and later to Jacob

3. Most pre mill believe the fulfillment of the land promised is yet future.
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The full land covenant is expressed in Genesis 15.
[quote]18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-379d)] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es and Jebusites."
That includes land much larger than your verses, Len. Those lands have never been inhabited.

And it is to his physcial descendants, not anyone else.

But let us stay focused on what land is actually promised before we go down that road.
However, the land promise was fulfilled and we have biblical proof to that fact:

Joshua 21:43 (NKJV)
So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it.
Read the context of the chaper. It was lands give to the sons of Jacob, which is not the same as the full land covenanted to Abraham.
There were conditions put into place upon Israel to remain in possession of the land.
For the Mosaic Covenant, yes, for the Abrahamic Covnenant, no.

The Mosaic stated it was conditional to Israel, not Abraham. Israel failed and never filled the full land promised to Abraham.

The Abrahamic covneant was not conditional. It stated once filled it would remain filled forever. The fact that Israel was cast out proves the Abrahamic Covenant had not reached the full borders because it if had they would never have been cast out.

Further, it states the fulfillment was eternally through the physical offspring of Abraham.

There are two sets of national promises to Abraham. One was a single nation from his flesh that would get the land. The other was many nations that would come from him, but with no land promises.

There a number of covenants in the OT, not just one. The Abrahamic is the only unconditional one because it was to a man and he fulfilled his covenant, leaving God to fulfill his.

Again, let us clear up the actually land spoken of first.

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Again, the Abrahamic is eternal, not ending.
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

God fulfilled His promise and gave Israel possession of the land. Israel broke the covenant and by doing so, lost their possession.


Yep. But you are not talking about the eternal, already fulfilled by Abraham, Abrahamic Covenant. You are talking about the Mosaic, a conditional covenant that they did violate.

Two separate covenant. The Abrahamic has never been fulfilled because as an eternal one once Israel possesses the full covenant land they will never breach the contract so their occupancy will never end.

And it will not. MK into eternity is eternal occupancy. Then, and only the, will it be fulfilled.

Look at the land in the full promise and do some historical research. It has never been fully occupied. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel) is an example of Abrahamic versus Israel land promises.
Not looking to start things out with a lengthy post, so I'll let Core reply.
Agree. And we have already gotten into two issues.

We need to finish the land actually involved first.

[Ltanner09]

Israel failed and never filled the full land promised to Abraham.

Ne 9:7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girga****es, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

No question the land was possessed as promised.

The issue now would be one of "forever". Be back tomorrow, Core.

[CoreIssue]

Israel failed and never filled the full land promised to Abraham.Ne 9:7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girga****es, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

No question the land was possessed as promised.

The issue now would be one of "forever". Be back tomorrow, Core.
Yes, there is indeed a question. Did you look at the maps in the link? If you had you would see the full land has never been possessed. Never did the borders go to the Euphrates River.

7 "You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. 8 You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girga****es. You have kept your promise because you are righteous.
The promise is for eternal possession of the full land. God has kept his promise in working via his physical descendents, but it never says anywhere in this verse it is fulfilled.

A promise in work is a promise kept but that does not mean fulfilled.

Plus the full land promise to Abraham is to the Euphrates River. Why is that part not mentioned here? Because it is part of the promise still open which keeps the full promise unfilled.

So, at that time, this portion of the full promise was kept, but on a conditional basis that continuing to keep it had to have requirements met.

Isreal has never fulfilled the full Mosaic Covenant thus it is not eternal. But the Abrahamic was kept by Abraham and is eternal but yet unfilled. And the promise is via the physical seed of Israel, not anyone else.

You have not proven your case that the full land was every occupied. None of the verses you listed have dealt with the full land. None have stated the land promised to Abraham was ever fully occupied. All the verses speak of covenants with other than Abraham.

Please look at the maps and show me where Israel's borders have ever been to the Euphrates River. Never said in the Bible.

And remember the nation Israel was suppose to destroy and occupy, but didn't? They were not absorbed into the land occupied due that failure of Israel. So right there is land left out.

Genesis 17
I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God." 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Individual Jews can break the covenant but the covenant itself is in the flesh Abraham, to Abraham, who kept his promise. Cannot be nullified or broken. And per the covenant must be fulfilled via his physical descendents.

Literally stated, an eternal covenant to Abraham that cannot be broken and must be fulfilled via his physical descendents. Descendents who fulfill the covenant. So eternal to Abraham and conditional to Israel, which the Mosiac Covenant was and the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah will be, but in the MK they will fulfill it, with the land to never be abandoned again, not on this earth or the new earth to come.

The fact they were removed from the land says they never kept the full promise. If so then the covenant was not eternal possession, making God a liar, which we both know he is not.

[CoreIssue]

Good discussion, Len. I think it is healthy for everyone to talk and read on such issues.

[Ltanner09]

Good discussion, Len. I think it is healthy for everyone to talk and read on such issues.

Core, got home early tonight and will reply to your previous post earlier than expected.

Civil discussions/debates benefit everyone. Hopefully our discussions will result in more, civil like, participation down the road with other members.

Hopefully everyone (you n' I included) come away with something beneficial through this.

[Ltanner09]

Yes, there is indeed a question. Did you look at the maps in the link? If you had you would see the full land has never been possessed. Never did the borders go to the Euphrates River.

Get ready to chalk one up for the visiting team:

1Ki 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

(JFB commentary)
Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river--All the petty kingdoms between the Euphrates and the Mediterranean were tributary to him. Similar is the statement in 1Ki 4:24.

"The river" is virtually, universaly, accepted to mean the Euphrates.

You have not proven your case that the full land was every occupied. None of the verses you listed have dealt with the full land. None have stated the land promised to Abraham was ever fully occupied. All the verses speak of covenants with other than Abraham.

Core, the bible proves me 100% accurate on this. 1 Kings assures us the land included the portion to the Euphrates and Neh.9:7/8 asures us all of the land promised was possessed.

I understand your map, but the map is superceded by biblical verses :D

I will post more within the hour.

[Ltanner09]

Next....and last in this series for a bit....is the claim that the land promised to Israel was to be "forever".

Ge 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Ge 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

5769. `owlam
Search for H5769 in KJVSL
Mlwe `owlam o-lawm'

or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703.

The Hebrew word translated 'forever' and 'everlasting'
is olam
a. "meaning a very long time" - TCWD
b. "may cover a person's lifetime (Exo 21:6; 1 Sa 1:22) - ibid.
c. "a period of many generations (Josh 24:2) - ibid.
d. "the time of the present created order" (Ps 73:12) - ibid.
e. "The term 'forever,' for a perpetual possession, means as
long as the order of things to which it belongs lasts."
- Barnes
f. "...to the end of the present dispensation" - Clarke

If 'everlasting' always meant lasting forever, then we should
still be observing:

a. Circumcision - Gen 17:10-13
b. The Passover - Exo 12:14
c. The Feast of Unleavened Bread - Exo 12:17
d. The priesthood of Aaron - Exo 29:9
e. The Sabbath - Exo 31:16-17
f. The sacrifices, with their portions for the priests - Lev
6:18; 7:34-36; 10:15
g. Fasting and animal sacrifices on the Day of Atonement - Lev
16:29-34
h. The Feast of Tabernacles - Lev 23:39-42
i. ...and many other elements of the Law described as
'everlasting ordinances'
4. Yet the New Testament teaches such ordinances were not
permanent
a. They were fleshly ordinances, imposed until a time of
reformation - He 9:6-10
b. Circumcision is clearly no longer binding - Ga 5:1-6
c. Even Sabbath days are no longer bound - Col 2:14-17

The promise of the land was to last only as long as it fulfilled God's purpose and "olwam" is used to deginate the period of time, which can vary.

I think we can agree that Abraham looked forward to an "eternal" land, not one that would eventually be melted away at the 2nd coming.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Israel has already possessed all of the land promised to them. The land promise was not eternal, but an indefinite timefream to fulfill God's purpose.

Israel, through disobedience, lost the land.

But Abraham looked for a city built by God, a heavenly city, not one in the middle east.

Core, Looks like we have enough on our plate to last awhile and we'll undoubtedly banter back and forth on the previous posts for several days.

Biblical verses convince me that Israel received all of the land promised to them. They violated the 'conditions" regarding continued possession and lost the land as a result.

Only through Christ can anyone now enter the place He has prepared for them.

This is about the end of the line for me on this topic, as far as presenting biblical verses supporting my position. Rebuttal time for the home team :):

[watchman333]

Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your discussion on the promised land. Very few understand there were TWO covenants made. One, Mosaic, which the children broke, and one, Abrahamic, which GOD made unconditional (Abraham was put into a deep sleep) with Himself. There are also TWO prophesies to be fulfilled. One is being fulfilled right now, as the LORD did gather His scattered after WW II. The other is about to begin, which is eternal, and begins at the end of this generation, the generation of the fig tree. The millenial temple will be in Jerusalem and will extend to the Euphrates. Thanks again. www.watchman333.com (http://www.watchman333.com)

[Ltanner09]

Watchman, kinda scary that your reply included a reference to Ezekiel's Temple
as I was going to begin a debate thread on that topic tomorrow.

Will reply to the rest of your post tomorrow, or possibly Monday.

[CoreIssue]

Yes, there is indeed a question. Did you look at the maps in the link? If you had you would see the full land has never been possessed. Never did the borders go to the Euphrates River.Get ready to chalk one up for the visiting team:

1Ki 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

Sorry for being so long. I was out of town and didn't get a reply alert in my mailbox when I got back.

But nope, that does not fly as an answer, Len.

Like the Romans ruled over leaders of other nations but the lands were never inhabited by the Romans, you have the same situation here.

As stated in the verse the land was inhabited by Philistines, not Jews.

And again, when invading the Promised Land and commanded to kill all the inhabitants, the didn't and did not inhabit all the initial land either.

Plus, the covenant says once the land was inhabited Israel would never be cast out. They were.

You are not dealing with the whole covenant, Len. And still trying to justify Replacement Theology, which you never can.
(JFB commentary)
Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river--All the petty kingdoms between the Euphrates and the Mediterranean were tributary to him. Similar is the statement in 1Ki 4:24.

"The river" is virtually, universaly, accepted to mean the Euphrates.Does not matter. The prophecy of inhabiting the land and never being cast out was not fulfilled.

In example, Guam is ruled over by the US, but it is not a state of the US. Same with other islands.
You have not proven your case that the full land was every occupied. None of the verses you listed have dealt with the full land. None have stated the land promised to Abraham was ever fully occupied. All the verses speak of covenants with other than Abraham.Core, the bible proves me 100% accurate on this. 1 Kings assures us the land included the portion to the Euphrates and Neh.9:7/8 asures us all of the land promised was possessed.Israel never occupied the full land. Rule over is not inhabiting, Len.

And you still are not dealing with never being cast out upon full inhabiting but being cast out. You cannot just whack out part of the covenant.

God never allowed for non Jews coinhabiting the land.
I understand your map, but the map is superceded by biblical verses :DThe Bible backs the map, Len.

You have proven the case Israel never inhabited all the land, Philistines and another nations inhabited portions thereof.

And you never addressed the covenant issue of never being cast out once fully inhabited.

I know where you are trying to go and you cannot get there.

[CoreIssue]

Next....and last in this series for a bit....is the claim that the land promised to Israel was to be "forever".

Ge 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Ge 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

5769. `owlam
Search for H5769 in KJVSL
Mlwe `owlam o-lawm'

or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703.

The Hebrew word translated 'forever' and 'everlasting'
is olam
a. "meaning a very long time" - TCWD
b. "may cover a person's lifetime (Exo 21:6; 1 Sa 1:22) - ibid.
c. "a period of many generations (Josh 24:2) - ibid.
d. "the time of the present created order" (Ps 73:12) - ibid.
e. "The term 'forever,' for a perpetual possession, means as
long as the order of things to which it belongs lasts."
- Barnes
f. "...to the end of the present dispensation" - Clarke

If 'everlasting' always meant lasting forever, then we should
still be observing:

a. Circumcision - Gen 17:10-13
b. The Passover - Exo 12:14
c. The Feast of Unleavened Bread - Exo 12:17
d. The priesthood of Aaron - Exo 29:9
e. The Sabbath - Exo 31:16-17
f. The sacrifices, with their portions for the priests - Lev
6:18; 7:34-36; 10:15
g. Fasting and animal sacrifices on the Day of Atonement - Lev
16:29-34
h. The Feast of Tabernacles - Lev 23:39-42
i. ...and many other elements of the Law described as
'everlasting ordinances'
4. Yet the New Testament teaches such ordinances were not
permanent
a. They were fleshly ordinances, imposed until a time of
reformation - He 9:6-10
b. Circumcision is clearly no longer binding - Ga 5:1-6
c. Even Sabbath days are no longer bound - Col 2:14-17
False comparison.

Abrahams covenant was eternal, the Mosaic was conditional. In other words God said his covenant would be fulfilled to Abraham since all conditions were met. But the Mosaic would only be fulfilled if Israel kept its end of the deal, which it didn't.

So, the Mosaic failed but the Abrahamic must be kept, and kept via Israel.

You improperly equated the two covenant and thus tried to find an escape clause from a portion of the Abrahamic. Cannot do.
The promise of the land was to last only as long as it fulfilled God's purpose and "olwam" is used to deginate the period of time, which can vary.False. It will be fulfilled in the MK and then on into eternity on the New Earth in the New Jerusalem.
I think we can agree that Abraham looked forward to an "eternal" land, not one that would eventually be melted away at the 2nd coming.There is no melting away at the Second Coming. That is Amil thinking, not what the Bible says.
Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.Of course all believers are looking for the better place in Eternity. But the New Jerusalem will be on the New Earth in eternity, not in Heaven, where it now awaits coming down after the MK.

Again you try to spiritualize the literal words of the Bible that the MK will be on this earth and is not going on right now in Heaven.

And you try to rewrite an eternal covenant from everlasting to for a given period of time only. Context does not allow for that.
Israel has already possessed all of the land promised to them. Nope.
The land promise was not eternal, but an indefinite timefream to fulfill God's purpose.Nope.
Israel, through disobedience, lost the land.Mosaic Covenant, which was conditional. Not the Abrahamic Covenant, which is eternal.

That is a problem with Amil thinking. You don't understand they are two distinct covenants, not one and the same.
But Abraham looked for a city built by God, a heavenly city, not one in the middle east.False, God gave Abraham physical land and he lived upon part of it.
Core, Looks like we have enough on our plate to last awhile and we'll undoubtedly banter back and forth on the previous posts for several days.
To be honest, I think we have reached a dead end. As long as you see the Mosaic Covenant as the Abrahamic, we are going nowhere because the Bible gave a covenant to Abraham which Abraham met the demands thereof and one to Israel, who did not meet the demands thereof. The Mosaic was annulled, the Abrahamic will never be and has never been fulfilled as concerns the land or anything else, yet.
Biblical verses convince me that Israel received all of the land promised to them. They violated the 'conditions" regarding continued possession and lost the land as a result.Has nothing to do with the Abrahamic Covenant.
Only through Christ can anyone now enter the place He has prepared for them.And Israel looked forward to Christ. Plus the Body of Christ is defined as two heirs, Israel and Church, not just Church.

Israel will be back in the promised New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah. Even in Hebrews Paul calls that a future covenant.
This is about the end of the line for me on this topic, as far as presenting biblical verses supporting my position. Rebuttal time for the home team :):The big problem here is there are two covenants in the Bible on these issues but you only see one. You try to rewrite an eternal one into a conditional one.

God told Abraham he fulfilled his conditions and thus God WOULD fulfill his promise. Not fulfilled yet.

God told Moses he would eternally fulfill his promises to Moses if Israel kept their side. They didn't.

But God promised Abraham he would fulfill his promises via his physical seed. Thus the promised future new covenant that was better to than the old. A covenant not to the Church but the Houses of Israel and Judah, physical terms about physical lineage, not spiritual lineage.

God made two national promises to Abraham, one via his descendents and on via many nations. The Church is of the many nations, not Israel. Church and Israel and the many nations referred to in Revelation singing. Israel on the 24 thrones before the Father, wife of God. Christ, the High Priest, and his bride, the Church, before the Father.

I am a literalists, Len. I know the Amil arguments for spiritulizing Israel into Church. But they are Biblically indefensible.

I know you feel correct in your arguments.

Remember, Amil thinking came out of the RCC. Not a good source, even if the arguments have been tweaked to escape Rome.

[CoreIssue]

Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your discussion on the promised land. Very few understand there were TWO covenants made. One, Mosaic, which the children broke, and one, Abrahamic, which GOD made unconditional (Abraham was put into a deep sleep) with Himself. There are also TWO prophesies to be fulfilled. One is being fulfilled right now, as the LORD did gather His scattered after WW II. The other is about to begin, which is eternal, and begins at the end of this generation, the generation of the fig tree. The millenial temple will be in Jerusalem and will extend to the Euphrates. Thanks again. www.watchman333.com (http://www.watchman333.com)
Are you part of the 8th Day movement or something similar?

I can see we differ on how the judgments flow and the future of the earth.

The New Jerusalem does not come down on the earth during the MK. It does so after on the New Earth.

First Resurrection, for the saints, begins at the Rapture and ends at the end of time, immediately after the short time of Satan. Then the White Throne occurs, but is only for the condemned.

But that is another discussion for elsewhere.

[watchman333]

Thanks Len, but it's not scary, it's the LORD! He watches over all His children, even knowing our innermost thoughts. Ezekiel's millennial temple is closer than most people want to think about (Ezekiel 40-48). It will begin as this generation ends, it will last one day, one thousand years, and we will all be back in our spiritual bodies. However Len, think of the book of Ezekiel as God's roadmap to peace. Start with chapter 36 where God physically brings His children back to Israel (now). Chapter 37 where God spiritually brings His children home, and 38 & 39 which just preceeds the final tribulations. Then, the millennium. Just some thoughts, if you care to expand your study. www.watchman333.com (http://www.watchman333.com)

[CoreIssue]

Thanks Len, but it's not scary, it's the LORD! He watches over all His children, even knowing our innermost thoughts. Ezekiel's millennial temple is closer than most people want to think about (Ezekiel 40-48). It will begin as this generation ends, it will last one day, one thousand years, and we will all be back in our spiritual bodies. However Len, think of the book of Ezekiel as God's roadmap to peace. Start with chapter 36 where God physically brings His children back to Israel (now). Chapter 37 where God spiritually brings His children home, and 38 & 39 which just preceeds the final tribulations. Then, the millennium. Just some thoughts, if you care to expand your study. www.watchman333.com (http://www.watchman333.com)
I believe the MK Temple will be the Ezekiel Temple, not the Heavenly one. And will be very physical and on this old earth. As will the inhabitants of the earth be physical.

Those who come with Christ will be in glorified physical bodies.

Back in our spiritual bodies? Interesting since we are born in physical bodies, spirits within.

Christ will, at the Second Coming, gather physical Israel to Jerusalem. Church will have been raptured 7 years earlier and the Trib Saints that survived will live on, but only the Jewish ones in Jerusalem. The dead will be resurrected and glorified to also rule on the earth.

[watchman333]

Sorry Core, I thought I was answering Len, but his question got lost somewhere. Computers are my bane. I'm having a hard time getting into the 21st century. To answer your questions: No, I am not part of the 8th day movement, whatever that is. I do not belong to any religious group or church, only to Christ. We agree, New Jerusalem is at the end of the millennial day, and begins the eternity. The 1st resurrection is at the end of the final tribulations and these blessed children will be teaching, with Christ, throughout the millennial day. We disagree about the GWTJ. We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ at the end of the millennium, most for punishment, but some for reward! Let's make sure that's us! www.watchman333.com (http://www.watchman333.com)

[CoreIssue]

Sorry Core, I thought I was answering Len, but his question got lost somewhere.
I understood you were answering Len. But on a forum anyone can reply to anything unless a topic is specifically limited in certain a ways.

That is because all readers, lurkers or otherwise, are impacted.

I believe Len's post is still there and he is still fully free to say what he wants.
Computers are my bane. I'm having a hard time getting into the 21st century. To answer your questions: No, I am not part of the 8th day movement, whatever that is.
Interesting since you said 8th day, which is not used in any groups but 8th day.
I do not belong to any religious group or church, only to Christ. We agree, New Jerusalem is at the end of the millennial day, and begins the eternity. The 1st resurrection is at the end of the final tribulations
I am Pre-Trib. Not really clear if you are Post-Trib it appears.
and these blessed children will be teaching, with Christ, throughout the millennial day.
That needs a good deal of refining since it will be far more complex than that. Not all will be teaching, either living or glorified.

And Israel will have the role of Priest, etc, not Gentiles.
We disagree about the GWTJ. We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ at the end of the millennium, most for punishment, but some for reward!
Cannot be. We see the 24 Elders at the First Seal with rewards in place, in example. The Church comes with Christ at the Second Coming, glorified and married, thus rewarded. Resurrected OT Israel is there as well.

Revelation states two Resurrections, first for the blessed and second for the damned.

So a one resurrection judgment cannot work.
Let's make sure that's us! www.watchman333.com (http://www.watchman333.com)
You really should be leaving your site address in your profile. We have had problems with people just coming on to publicize their sites, which is not in keeping with the use of the forum threads themselves.

Especially a problem when advertising to sell something. Which is mainly what your site does.

[Ltanner09]

Yes Core, we've reached a dead end on this topic.

Your reply was all over the place, somehow touching on issues not even discussed (replacement theology, for one....which I don't even agree with).

While it's true that Israel did not kill all of the inhabitants of the land, they still possessed it. The inhabitants they didn't kill were to be an eventual snare to them for being disobedient.

I posted many verses where it stated God fulfilled the promises of land.

I posted the definition of "forever", which shows the land would only be possessed until God's purpose was completed. The word used "forever" can mean simply one generation....proven by the verses I provided.

It certainly isn't hard to overlook the fact that you didn't list ONE biblical verse to refute the argument I put forward.

I wrote ...and supplied verses to the following:
Israel has already possessed all of the land promised to them.
Despite the biblical proof I offered your reply (after 5 days) was:

"Nope."

I wrote....and supplied the word definition for "forever" showing the land was only temporal. I provided several biblical verses proving that "forever" is used to describe timeframes of several years to several generations, not necessarily "forever"

Your extensive reply was:

"Nope."

God fulfilled all of His promises regarding giving land to Israel.To avoid any confusion, he made sure the bible confirmed that fact.
The "eternal, never ending possession, that Abraham looked forward to was heavenly, not earthly.

I can't provide any more proof than what's been offered.

I'll begin a new debate thread, on Ezekiel's Temple, when I get home from work later tonight.

Only took a week for this thread to unravel:tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

Len, the problem remains that you see one covenant when there are two. You keep mixing them together.

I did post the Abrahamic Covenant verses. I didn't think I needed to post the New Covenant verses from Hebrews, but here you go:
Hebrews 8

"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30089c)]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


House of Israel and Judah, not Church. Will, not is. Not like the one made with their Fathers. The Jewish Fathers are not the Fathers of the Gentile peoples.

Context, Len. Hebrews is written to Jews, not Gentiles.

As for the definition, it does not eliminate everlasting. That is part of the definition as well.

Finally, the fulfilled verses you listed were promises not to Abraham, but to their fathers, his descendants. So, you were out of context in claiming fulfilled to Abraham as well.

No. You didn't prove your case.

[watchman333]

Dear Core,
As it is written, there are two resurrections, but the 2nd resurrection is for those converted to Christ during the millennial day. As you pointed out, there is no resurrection for the damned. In the millenium, "All will be taught of GOD" with the approval of my Beloved, by Levites like me!

[CoreIssue]

Dear Core,
As it is written, there are two resurrections, but the 2nd resurrection is for those converted to Christ during the millennial day. As you pointed out, there is no resurrection for the damned. In the millenium, "All will be taught of GOD" with the approval of my Beloved, by Levites like me!
Does not say that. You are reading in a Jewish bias here.

Yes, living Israel is in the Temple, Jerusalem and Israel. But it also states the Church and ALL the Trib saints, which includes Gentiles, work and rule as well.

The Glorified Church, complete at the Rapture, also works during the MK. The Bride of Christ is the Church, not Israel. Israel is the Wife of God, the Father.

The First Resurrection is during the Day of the Lord, which is the Trib plus MK. The 24 Elders are glorified and rewarded with crowns at the First Seal, which begins the Trib.
Revelation 4
4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

So, you see the 24 Elders of Israel but no Church because the Church is in the Wedding Supper, meaning they are secluded, and the Wedding Guests, the rest of OT Israel saints are not seen as well.

The next mention of the Bride is coming down, married, with Christ at the Second Coming.

The Two Witnesses at Mid Trib.

I didn't say there was no resurrection of the damned because there is. Two Resurrections clearly stated in Revelation.
Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Note there are saints already glorified and rewarded on the throne prior to the Second Coming. The Bride.

Here we see the Trib saints, Jew and Gentile, resurrected at the Second Coming. Clearly stated they stand before the Church and Christ as spirits.

Then the statement the rest do not resurrect until after the MK and the First Resurrection is for the blessed, not the Second.

The First Resurrection is on one day, the Day of the Lord, which is at about 1,000 years.

You are creating a Jewish bias which is the flip bias of those into Replacement Theology.

The Body of Christ is both Israel and Church.

[Ltanner09]

Watchman had written:
One is being fulfilled right now, as the LORD did gather His scattered after WW II. The other is about to begin, which is eternal, and begins at the end of this generation, the generation of the fig tree.

Somehow I missed this. I'm assuming you are claiming that national Israel is compared to a fig tree.

Mt 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Christ was either pronouncing a curse on Israel, or a curse on ANY tree that doesn't bear fruit.
I tend to believe it was a signal of both.


You also seem to hold onto the fading belief that "this generation" means the generation that saw the creation of Israel in 1948.

Of course Hal Lindsay went for broke by claiming the rapture would be in 1988 (40 years after Israel became a nation), then, as widely expected, bought himself 19 years by claiming it was Israel's capture of Jerusalem that triggered "this generation" (2007 has come and gone).

Maybe we need a debate topic about "this generation", or as pre mill/'pre trib prefers, "that generation".:scratch:

[CoreIssue]

Len, that relates to Israel's fall. Here relates to its return.
Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Second coming and the end of the Age. Never happened yet.

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23960a)]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Been a growing historical reality. Sure was not fulfilled in the past.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
No way a past reality as you wish to claim. Most nations didn't even know of the Apostles or Christ, even at his death.

10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Faith had not even been spread yet. To fall away it first must be accepted and spread.

11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Not a reality back then. But sure has been since, especially in our day and time.

12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Evil is sure growing dramatically now. Been bad a long time, but getting worse.

13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,
That reality did not occur until the 20th century.

and then the end will come.
Another prophecy designating this time period.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
The Woman flees at Mid Trib. And it requires a Temple exists.

17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Talking Jerusalem and the Temple.

21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
Not happened yet.

22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
Not happened yet.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Visible. Has not happened yet.

28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23984c)]

Not happened yet.
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Expanded upon in the OT. Has not happened yet.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
But in 24 he cursed the tree. That was OT Israel.


Here the tree is coming alive again in a new season.


]33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23988d)]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23989e)] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.[/COLOR]
A requirement is the return of national Israel AFTER all the other required events have occurred in history.

1948 was when Israel began to show life again. There was no national Israel from 70 AD until then.
Generation meaning:
[B]Strong's Number: 1074 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1074&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin geneavfrom (a presumed derivative of) (1085 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1085&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1074&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Genea1:662,114 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech ghen-eh-ah' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=1074g) Noun Feminine Definition

fathered, birth, nativity
that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation




the whole multitude of men living at the same time
an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

[Ltanner09]

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

But in 24 he cursed the tree. That was OT Israel.
Here the tree is coming alive again in a new season.

Core, did....or did not....Jesus curse the fig tree that no fruit would grow on it FOREVER?

Mt 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

You claimed that the fig tree represents national Israel but seem to indicate Christ changed His mind about "let no fruit grow on thee....forever" sometime between chapter 21:19 and 24:32.

You believe Matt 24:32 speaks to a restored Israel, but Luke has a different take:

Lu 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

No, Christ was not speaking to a restored Israel in MATT CH 24 but a harvest of all of those bearing fruit.

[kay-gee]

How did a fig tree come to represent Israel anyway? It seems to be quite a leap. Figs appeared in parables because they were common in the area. Could as easily been Olives, Oranges, whatever. The disciples didn't understand a fig tree to be Israel or else they wouldnt have asked the question in Acts 1:6. They would have been asking something they already had te answer to. Jesus was saying here that when it is time it is time, as in agriculture. Methinks it's a Hal Lindsay creation.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

[quote]
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

But in 24 he cursed the tree. That was OT Israel.
Here the tree is coming alive again in a new season.Core, did....or did not....Jesus curse the fig tree that no fruit would grow on it FOREVER?

Mt 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

You claimed that the fig tree represents national Israel but seem to indicate Christ changed His mind about "let no fruit grow on thee....forever" sometime between chapter 21:19 and 24:32.
Covenant Israel, Len, not national Israel.

As Paul said in Hebrews that old earthly covenant was fading and would be gone. But then he turns around and speaks of a new Covenant that will one day be to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

Note in both cases national Israel is the focus but it the issues are covenants being dealt with.

The Mosaic Covenant of OT Israel is gone for good. The new has not even begun yet.

Remember both these issues were spoken at the same time, so they were linked by purpose.
You believe Matt 24:32 speaks to a restored Israel, but Luke has a different take:

Lu 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.Absolutely not, Len.

There is the domestic fig, Israel, and the wild fig, Gentile. The wild is grafted into the domestic. If the domestic were dead and gone then the grafted in would die as well because the root and trunk that feeds the wild is the domestic.

Church Covenant is in its summer now. The New Covenant to Israel is only beginning to sprout, no leaves yet, so of course no fruit yet. Church is harvested at the Rapture.

Wheat has TWO seasons, Len, not one. Church is the spring wheat and Israel the Summer. Revelation opens with a harvest and closes with a harvest. Spring has no weeds but summer does, thus the thrashing floor scenario during the Trib.
No, Christ was not speaking to a restored Israel in MATT CH 24 but a harvest of all of those bearing fruit.Again you parse the passage to see what you want.

Pay attention to the WHOLE passage, Len. It is about Jerusalem and Israel.

That is why I posted the whole passage, but you disregard all except what you feel you can spin to your meaning. You cannot do that. You have to read the verse according to the subject and context of the whole passage, which is Jerusalem, Israel and Jews.

You cannot spin this into a Church passage.

[CoreIssue]

How did a fig tree come to represent Israel anyway? It seems to be quite a leap. Figs appeared in parables because they were common in the area. Could as easily been Olives, Oranges, whatever. The disciples didn't understand a fig tree to be Israel or else they wouldnt have asked the question in Acts 1:6. They would have been asking something they already had te answer to. Jesus was saying here that when it is time it is time, as in agriculture. Methinks it's a Hal Lindsay creation.

all the best...
KG, figs were symbolic of Israel long before Christ spoke parables.

Figs (http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=1075)

As for Acts 1:6 I don't have a clue how you made that deduction.

In Mat 24 he said the fig would bear fruit again when he made his Second Coming. Here, he was appearing to them after his resurrection and they wer asking if this was his Second Coming.

He told them not yet. The angel confirmed it:
10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

They knew the fig was symbolic of Israel. They never asked Christ what a fig tree represented at any time because they already knew.

Sure didn't represent Church in Matthew because they didn't have a clue what the Church was because it didn't exist yet.

This is a major problem with non literalists. Not reading according to rules of grammar and word meaning results in missing a lot of obvious material.

You cannot divorce verses from the full passage context and understand them. Literally said here the governing context was the Second Coming.

And in Mat 24 the literal context was Jerusalem, Temple, Israel and Jews and that covenant Israel would die but would grow again.

Any farmer who deals with trees knows that a deal tree can and often will resprout from the stump or roots. Or that grafted in branches feed from the trunk and roots of the parent tree, which means that tree is not dead even if ever other branch on the tree is bare of leafs.

In Matthew 21 he did not say the fig tree was dead. He said it would not bear fruit again.

Most assuredly the OT covenant is gone and will not bear fruit again. But the tree feeds the Church Covenant, which does bear fruit and it will feed the New Covenant to Israel and Judah in the future, which are new branches (covenant), not the old ones(covenant).

Read Romans 11 on this issue. Pay attention to:
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Clearly Israel returning.

Israel has been cut out of the tree but it will be put back. And limbs cut out do not bear fruit or even leaves.

[Ltanner09]

As Paul said in Hebrews that old earthly covenant was fading and would be gone. But then he turns around and speaks of a new Covenant that will one day be to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

News flash, Core. The new covenant has been in existence for over 1900 years.
It includes all of humanity (which by default includes Israel, Judah, Korea, the Netherlands, and so on.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews clearly ties the covenant Christ confirmed to the first covenant.
There is no additional covenant.

Note in both cases national Israel is the focus but it the issues are covenants being dealt with.

The Mosaic Covenant of OT Israel is gone for good. The new has not even begun yet.

Again Hebrews shows that you're not paying attention: The verses continue:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Hebrews quotes Jeremiah as fulfillment of the prophecy.
The new covenant spoken of is the same one in Heb 8:6.


Church Covenant is in its summer now. The New Covenant to Israel is only beginning to sprout, no leaves yet, so of course no fruit yet. Church is harvested at the Rapture.

The covenant you keep tripping over is the one prophesied. There is no future covenant with national Israel.

Wheat has TWO seasons, Len, not one. Church is the spring wheat and Israel the Summer. Revelation opens with a harvest and closes with a harvest. Spring has no weeds but summer does, thus the thrashing floor scenario during the Trib.

I don't know what the above has to do with covenants, but I now have a craving for Wheaties.

Core do you honestly believe Hebrews would speak to the covenant Christ confirmed, then tie it into the FAULTY FIRST covenant, THEN speak to Jeremiah's prohecy of a SECOND COVENANT and somehow NOT be relating JEREMIAH'S prophesied COVENANT to the very covenant just confirmed in Christ?

There would be no reason to mention Christ's covenant unless it was the very one mentioned in Jeremiah (and even quoted as fulfilled in Hebrews).

And you say *I* spiritualize verses?

[CoreIssue]

You have already lapsed into the arguments you made on the first subject, Len. But have not dealt with the verses quoted to you about physical realities in the future.

You are doing the classic jump away for the passage quoted to quote something you can spin as if it is the passage you jumped away from.

Doesn't work, Len.

How about going back and laying out the verses and passages posted to you and explaining why the don't mean what they say.

[Ltanner09]

How about going back and laying out the verses and passages posted to you and explaining why the don't mean what they say.

How come I gave you 5 days to reply when we started debating, now you want a reply within 24 hours?

Not everyone got a modem upgrade.:p

[Ltanner09]

Core, the verses you are waiting for a reply to.........I will post them and reply in the MK thread as I think I already stated (in that thread) that THAT thread was heading down the AD70 road.

Can't believe I used the word "that" 3 times in 4 words.

[CoreIssue]

How about going back and laying out the verses and passages posted to you and explaining why the don't mean what they say.How come I gave you 5 days to reply when we started debating, now you want a reply within 24 hours?

Not everyone got a modem upgrade.:p
I didn't get an upgrade. My modem died and I had to wait for a replacement.

The backup dial up number is overloaded and kept dropping out on me, plus during the day I could not take my phone offline. As is, I missed two important phone calls. So getting a simple post on was a major event.

Plus I had company.

[CoreIssue]

Core, the verses you are waiting for a reply to.........I will post them and reply in the MK thread as I think I already stated (in that thread) that THAT thread was heading down the AD70 road.

Can't believe I used the word "that" 3 times in 4 words.
OK.

That is an addictive word. :aah: