+ THE PAULINE PARADOX +

[Ben Masada]

When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah. Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

Ben

[CoreIssue]

When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.
Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.
False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.
On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)
Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.
Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

Ben
Unriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

[Ben Masada]

When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

+++Ben: - False for your lack of knowledge of Jewish Law. According to Judaism, the genealogical trait cannot be transmitted through adoption.

Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.
False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

+++Ben: - False assumption because according to Judaism, a child for instance from the Tribe of Dan being adopted by a Levite would never make of that child a Levite.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)
Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

+++Ben: - The paradox continues because all that you have written above is based on ignorance of Jewish Law.

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

Ben
Unriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

+++Ben: - The Sphinx goes back to the Pyramid to wait for the nex passer-by. You failed to unriddle the paradox.



Ben :yowza:

[CoreIssue]

[quote=Ben Masada;34535]When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

+++Ben: - False for your lack of knowledge of Jewish Law. According to Judaism, the genealogical trait cannot be transmitted through adoption.
Whoa, there. You are not talking Scripture but your version of Judaistic tradition. That argument does not constitute fact.

Try reading scripture. Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T17).

You cannot equate modern meanings and applications of adoption to OT standards.

Further, if adoption did not exist and was rejected why did God speak of adopting Israel, David, etc? You are pushing a double standard here.
Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

+++Ben: - False assumption because according to Judaism, a child for instance from the Tribe of Dan being adopted by a Levite would never make of that child a Levite.
Again you reference Judaism, not scriptures.
On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

+++Ben: - The paradox continues because all that you have written above is based on ignorance of Jewish Law.
No. Jewish Law is not the same as scripture or Mosaic Law. Jewish Law fills a library, man made. Scripture does not.

I will stick with scripture and history. Judaism did to God's OT what Catholicism did to the NT.
Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

BenUnriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

+++Ben: - The Sphinx goes back to the Pyramid to wait for the nex passer-by. You failed to unriddle the paradox.
No. I revealed the basis of your argument is a man made religion, not God's scripture.

That is why God set Israel aside after the 69th Week of Daniel.

But it will be back in the 70th Week, better than ever. Finally doing what it is suppose to but failed to do so in the past.

[Ben Masada]

[quote=Ben Masada;34535]When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

+++Ben: - False for your lack of knowledge of Jewish Law. According to Judaism, the genealogical trait cannot be transmitted through adoption.
Whoa, there. You are not talking Scripture but your version of Judaistic tradition. That argument does not constitute fact.

+++Ben: - Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.

Try reading scripture. Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T17).
You cannot equate modern meanings and applications of adoption to OT standards.

+++Ben: - Why not? Who wrote the Jewish laws? The Jews. Who wrote the Scriptures? The Jews. What I don't adopt is your NT, which I do not consider Scriptures.

Further, if adoption did not exist and was rejected why did God speak of adopting Israel, David, etc? You are pushing a double standard here.

+++Ben: - What god said that, your anthropomorphic god with human attributes? Give me a break!

Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

+++Ben: - False assumption because according to Judaism, a child for instance from the Tribe of Dan being adopted by a Levite would never make of that child a Levite.

Again you reference Judaism, not scriptures.

+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

+++Ben: - The paradox continues because all that you have written above is based on ignorance of Jewish Law.
No. Jewish Law is not the same as scripture or Mosaic Law. Jewish Law fills a library, man made. Scripture does not.

+++Ben: - "Man made!" Nonsense! The whole of the Scriptures was written by the Jews. Aren't the Jews men? Therefore, the Scriptures are
also man made. Stop the cop-out and face reality!

I will stick with scripture and history. Judaism did to God's OT what Catholicism did to the NT.

+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

BenUnriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

+++Ben: - The Sphinx goes back to the Pyramid to wait for the nex passer-by. You failed to unriddle the paradox.

No. I revealed the basis of your argument is a man made religion, not God's scripture.

+++Ben: - You revealed nothing but your lack of knowledge of the real authors of the Scriptures.

That is why God set Israel aside after the 69th Week of Daniel.
But it will be back in the 70th Week, better than ever. Finally doing what it is suppose to but failed to do so in the past.

+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.



Ben :catfight:

[Jessie]

[quote=Ben Masada;34535]When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

+++Ben: - False for your lack of knowledge of Jewish Law. According to Judaism, the genealogical trait cannot be transmitted through adoption.
Whoa, there. You are not talking Scripture but your version of Judaistic tradition. That argument does not constitute fact.

+++Ben: - Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.

Try reading scripture. Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T17).
You cannot equate modern meanings and applications of adoption to OT standards.

+++Ben: - Why not? Who wrote the Jewish laws? The Jews. Who wrote the Scriptures? The Jews. What I don't adopt is your NT, which I do not consider Scriptures.

Further, if adoption did not exist and was rejected why did God speak of adopting Israel, David, etc? You are pushing a double standard here.

+++Ben: - What god said that, your anthropomorphic god with human attributes? Give me a break!

Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

+++Ben: - False assumption because according to Judaism, a child for instance from the Tribe of Dan being adopted by a Levite would never make of that child a Levite. Again you reference Judaism, not scriptures.

+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

+++Ben: - The paradox continues because all that you have written above is based on ignorance of Jewish Law.No. Jewish Law is not the same as scripture or Mosaic Law. Jewish Law fills a library, man made. Scripture does not.

+++Ben: - "Man made!" Nonsense! The whole of the Scriptures was written by the Jews. Aren't the Jews men? Therefore, the Scriptures are
also man made. Stop the cop-out and face reality!

I will stick with scripture and history. Judaism did to God's OT what Catholicism did to the NT.

+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

BenUnriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

+++Ben: - The Sphinx goes back to the Pyramid to wait for the nex passer-by. You failed to unriddle the paradox.No. I revealed the basis of your argument is a man made religion, not God's scripture.

+++Ben: - You revealed nothing but your lack of knowledge of the real authors of the Scriptures.

That is why God set Israel aside after the 69th Week of Daniel.
But it will be back in the 70th Week, better than ever. Finally doing what it is suppose to but failed to do so in the past.

+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.



Ben :catfight:

and pride comes before a fall....

- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.


seems you enjoy being obnoxious. Moses would'nt have acted like this.

[Ben Masada]

[quote=Ben Masada;34535]When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

+++Ben: - False for your lack of knowledge of Jewish Law. According to Judaism, the genealogical trait cannot be transmitted through adoption.
Whoa, there. You are not talking Scripture but your version of Judaistic tradition. That argument does not constitute fact.

+++Ben: - Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.

Try reading scripture. Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T17).
You cannot equate modern meanings and applications of adoption to OT standards.

+++Ben: - Why not? Who wrote the Jewish laws? The Jews. Who wrote the Scriptures? The Jews. What I don't adopt is your NT, which I do not consider Scriptures.

Further, if adoption did not exist and was rejected why did God speak of adopting Israel, David, etc? You are pushing a double standard here.

+++Ben: - What god said that, your anthropomorphic god with human attributes? Give me a break!

Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

+++Ben: - False assumption because according to Judaism, a child for instance from the Tribe of Dan being adopted by a Levite would never make of that child a Levite. Again you reference Judaism, not scriptures.

+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

+++Ben: - The paradox continues because all that you have written above is based on ignorance of Jewish Law.No. Jewish Law is not the same as scripture or Mosaic Law. Jewish Law fills a library, man made. Scripture does not.

+++Ben: - "Man made!" Nonsense! The whole of the Scriptures was written by the Jews. Aren't the Jews men? Therefore, the Scriptures are
also man made. Stop the cop-out and face reality!

I will stick with scripture and history. Judaism did to God's OT what Catholicism did to the NT.

+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

BenUnriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

+++Ben: - The Sphinx goes back to the Pyramid to wait for the nex passer-by. You failed to unriddle the paradox.No. I revealed the basis of your argument is a man made religion, not God's scripture.

+++Ben: - You revealed nothing but your lack of knowledge of the real authors of the Scriptures.

That is why God set Israel aside after the 69th Week of Daniel.
But it will be back in the 70th Week, better than ever. Finally doing what it is suppose to but failed to do so in the past.

+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.



Ben :catfight:

and pride comes before a fall....

- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.


seems you enjoy being obnoxious. Moses would'nt have acted like this.


That's not being obnoxious. It's called defense of authoral rights. And
Moses indeed would not have acted thus if you didn't try to discard Judaism from the
Scriptures. Moses was even more fundamentalist than I am that he even
killed in defense of a Jew that he didn't have even personal acquaintance with.

Ben :aah:

[Jessie]

[quote=Ben Masada;34535]When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.
False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

+++Ben: - False for your lack of knowledge of Jewish Law. According to Judaism, the genealogical trait cannot be transmitted through adoption.
Whoa, there. You are not talking Scripture but your version of Judaistic tradition. That argument does not constitute fact.

+++Ben: - Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.

Try reading scripture. Click here (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/BakersEvangelicalDictionary/bed.cgi?number=T17).
You cannot equate modern meanings and applications of adoption to OT standards.

+++Ben: - Why not? Who wrote the Jewish laws? The Jews. Who wrote the Scriptures? The Jews. What I don't adopt is your NT, which I do not consider Scriptures.

Further, if adoption did not exist and was rejected why did God speak of adopting Israel, David, etc? You are pushing a double standard here.

+++Ben: - What god said that, your anthropomorphic god with human attributes? Give me a break!

Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.False argument.

The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

+++Ben: - False assumption because according to Judaism, a child for instance from the Tribe of Dan being adopted by a Levite would never make of that child a Levite. Again you reference Judaism, not scriptures.

+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

+++Ben: - The paradox continues because all that you have written above is based on ignorance of Jewish Law.No. Jewish Law is not the same as scripture or Mosaic Law. Jewish Law fills a library, man made. Scripture does not.

+++Ben: - "Man made!" Nonsense! The whole of the Scriptures was written by the Jews. Aren't the Jews men? Therefore, the Scriptures are
also man made. Stop the cop-out and face reality!

I will stick with scripture and history. Judaism did to God's OT what Catholicism did to the NT.

+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enought to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her. :tiphat:

Good luck!

BenUnriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth. :D

+++Ben: - The Sphinx goes back to the Pyramid to wait for the nex passer-by. You failed to unriddle the paradox.No. I revealed the basis of your argument is a man made religion, not God's scripture.

+++Ben: - You revealed nothing but your lack of knowledge of the real authors of the Scriptures.

That is why God set Israel aside after the 69th Week of Daniel.
But it will be back in the 70th Week, better than ever. Finally doing what it is suppose to but failed to do so in the past.

+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.



Ben :catfight:

and pride comes before a fall....

- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.


seems you enjoy being obnoxious. Moses would'nt have acted like this.


That's not being obnoxious. It's called defense of authoral rights. And
Moses indeed would not have acted thus if you didn't try to discard Judaism from the
Scriptures. Moses was even more fundamentalist than I am that he even
killed in defense of a Jew that he didn't have even personal acquaintance with.

Ben :aah:

you missed it completly.moses had intergrity. I dont find the way you conduct yourself defending anything.

[CoreIssue]

Ben, indeed you have missed the point entirely and the Jewish ego that caused God to turn from Israel after the 69th Week is shining through.

Let us get this straight. There were saints, men of God, before Abram.

Now, pay close attention. Noah, Enoch, Melchizedek and Abram were not Jews. You exist as a Jew due to a non Jewish man.

Moses didn't practice Judaism, he simply obeyed God.

Do you do the animal and other sacrifices required in Mosaic Law? No. Do you have the Ark or any other item God gave to Israel for worship purposes? No.

Why? Because Israel turned from God.

The 70 Weeks of Daniel tells you exactly when the Messiah would come. You reject the Messiah because it was not the conquering King Israel wanted.

+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.
No, I would not, because you do not read literally. I have heard Jewish theology having everything from trying to name a man to declaring Israel as a nation the Messiah.

Because you are Jewish does not mean you automatically can read the scriptures correctly.
+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.

- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.

You actually wrote nothing. The nation of Israel did not write the scriptures. Selected men from the nation of Israel did.

And God did not select a Jew to begin it all. He selected a man who was neither a Jew or a Gentile.

And I remind you that Abram held the Priest King of Salem as superior. Definitely not a Jew either.
+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.
And that is your problem. You are like the Catholics in inventing extra scriptural materials.

Jews have had a pride issue for millennia. Unfortunately many have not escaped it.

That will change at the Second Coming of Christ. But the price is big to get there, which many Jews will not.

[Willy]

Ben ... are we getting close?:hmm:

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

[Ben Masada]

Ben, indeed you have missed the point entirely and the Jewish ego that caused God to turn from Israel after the 69th Week is shining through.

+++Ben: - And the only thing you have, to see Yeshua in that prophetical
frame of Daniel about the 70 week/years is assumptions, and assumptions
butter no bread. Besides, the assumptions are not even yours. You have
copied from those who assumed before you.

Let us get this straight. There were saints, men of God, before Abram.
Now, pay close attention. Noah, Enoch, Melchizedek and Abram were not Jews. You exist as a Jew due to a non Jewish man.

+++Ben: - Sorry, but you haven't said anything with the above. Every single Jew knows that Abraham was not "Jewish" when he was chosen
to start this People.

Moses didn't practice Judaism, he simply obeyed God.

+++Ben: - Redounding statement. To practise Judaism is to obey God.

Do you do the animal and other sacrifices required in Mosaic Law? No. Do you have the Ark or any other item God gave to Israel for worship purposes? No.

+++Ben: - Animal sacrifices were bounded by the existence of the Temple. They will return when we rebuild our Temple. You will see. What's the connection with having the Ark for worshipping purposes? When the
Jews returned from Baylon they restored the Temple, sacrifices and
worship without having the Ark.

Why? Because Israel turned from God.

+++Ben: - For a little while only. See Daniel 9:24 for the Everlasting Justice that returned to us when we returned from Babylonian exile. Of the other nations God will make an end, but of Israel He will only chastise
as we deserve. (Jer. 30:11)

The 70 Weeks of Daniel tells you exactly when the Messiah would come. You reject the Messiah because it was not the conquering King Israel wanted.

+++Ben: - Yes, when you use foreign tools to interpret it. That's a Jewish
prophecy. You can't use the tools of Christianity to interpret a Jewish prophecy. The only way to interpret a Jewish prophecy is with Jewish tools. Whenever you express wish to be enlightened on that, I'll allow you
a glance into the truth of that Jewish prophetical frame.

+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.
No, I would not, because you do not read literally. I have heard Jewish theology having everything from trying to name a man to declaring Israel as a nation the Messiah.

+++Ben: - Would you like to know the name of the man who declared Israel to be the Messiah? The name is Isaiah; and I am sure he knew a
little better than you and me. He gives you the Messiah by name; and
that name is definitely not Yeshua but Israel. If you are interested how, let me know. And if you want Israel as the son of God, there will be no
problem; just let me know.

Because you are Jewish does not mean you automatically can read the scriptures correctly.
+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.

- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.

You actually wrote nothing. The nation of Israel did not write the scriptures. Selected men from the nation of Israel did.

+++Ben: - You are not too bright, did you know that? I have just found
out from the last two lines above. Sorry, but you have made yourself too
obvious.

And God did not select a Jew to begin it all. He selected a man who was neither a Jew or a Gentile.

+++Ben: - You have said that in the beginning.

And I remind you that Abram held the Priest King of Salem as superior. Definitely not a Jew either.

+++Ben: - And I bet you are going to tell me that he was Yeshua. Be sure to provide a scriptural quote.

+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.
And that is your problem. You are like the Catholics in inventing extra scriptural materials.

+++Ben: - The whole of the NT is extra-scriptural material added against
the injunction of Deuteronomy 4:2; 13:1; and Proverbs 30:6.

Jews have had a pride issue for millennia. Unfortunately many have not escaped it.

+++Ben: - Because we know the stock we come from: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

That will change at the Second Coming of Christ. But the price is big to get there, which many Jews will not.

+++Ben: - Second coming of Christ! Paul started with that idea two thousand years ago. It was imminent during his lifetime and still is. How
soon is imminent? You are setting yourself up for disappointments.



Ben :aah:

[CoreIssue]

Ben, indeed you have missed the point entirely and the Jewish ego that caused God to turn from Israel after the 69th Week is shining through.

+++Ben: - And the only thing you have, to see Yeshua in that prophetical
frame of Daniel about the 70 week/years is assumptions, and assumptions
butter no bread. Besides, the assumptions are not even yours. You have
copied from those who assumed before you.
No. I have the literal words, Ben. Couple them with the prophecies about the Messiah and I have proof.

Christ fulfilled all the prophecies 100%.
Let us get this straight. There were saints, men of God, before Abram.
Now, pay close attention. Noah, Enoch, Melchizedek and Abram were not Jews. You exist as a Jew due to a non Jewish man.

+++Ben: - Sorry, but you haven't said anything with the above. Every single Jew knows that Abraham was not "Jewish" when he was chosen
to start this People.
And Jews were intended to fulfill the promises given Abraham. To keep the Mosaic Covenant. They have failed to date.
Moses didn't practice Judaism, he simply obeyed God.

+++Ben: - Redounding statement. To practise Judaism is to obey God.
No. To practice Judaism is to follow a man made religion. Judaism abandoned God a long time ago for their own god.

Jews are to the OT covenant as Catholicism is to the Church. Both have invented their own versions abandoning the truth from God.

Do you do the animal and other sacrifices required in Mosaic Law? No. Do you have the Ark or any other item God gave to Israel for worship purposes? No.

+++Ben: - Animal sacrifices were bounded by the existence of the Temple. They will return when we rebuild our Temple. You will see. What's the connection with having the Ark for worshipping purposes? When the
Jews returned from Baylon they restored the Temple, sacrifices and
worship without having the Ark.
And that rebuilding is during the 70th Week of Daniel which follows the Church Age, during the New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah, prophesied both in the OT and NT.

Even in the OT the Trib, Millennial Kingdom and End of the World is prophesied. As is the restoration of Israel and the Messiah and his Second Coming.

Christ is the Messiah by prophecy that you reject. You have no literal Messiah in Judaism because you had to rewrite the meanings to avoid Christ.

Why? Because Israel turned from God.

+++Ben: - For a little while only. See Daniel 9:24 for the Everlasting Justice that returned to us when we returned from Babylonian exile. Of the other nations God will make an end, but of Israel He will only chastise
as we deserve. (Jer. 30:11)
No. The 70th Week of Daniel has not yet happened. The 69th Week ended with Christ's death and the cutting off of Israel until the 70th in verse 26. 70 AD is also in verse 26.

You cannot move the given weeks of years time frame back to the Babylon era. 483 years from the decree is about 27 AD, when the 69th Week ended on the cross.

The 70 Weeks of Daniel tells you exactly when the Messiah would come. You reject the Messiah because it was not the conquering King Israel wanted.

+++Ben: - Yes, when you use foreign tools to interpret it. That's a Jewish
prophecy. You can't use the tools of Christianity to interpret a Jewish prophecy. The only way to interpret a Jewish prophecy is with Jewish tools. Whenever you express wish to be enlightened on that, I'll allow you
a glance into the truth of that Jewish prophetical frame.
Weeks of years of 360 days each plus the Jewish version of leap adjustments. Not Christian, but Jewish. And no way to pull it back to the Babylon era.

I know you guys try to do that, just like you try to introduce the European plural of majesty into the the meaning of Elohim. Trouble is the concept was not invented until around 1200 AD.
[quote]+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.No, I would not, because you do not read literally. I have heard Jewish theology having everything from trying to name a man to declaring Israel as a nation the Messiah.

+++Ben: - Would you like to know the name of the man who declared Israel to be the Messiah? The name is Isaiah; and I am sure he knew a
little better than you and me. He gives you the Messiah by name; and
that name is definitely not Yeshua but Israel. If you are interested how, let me know. And if you want Israel as the son of God, there will be no
problem; just let me know.
Yea, I figured that was the doctrine you were operating under.

Problem is it takes a perfect man to be a substitution for sin. Examine the sheep offering that had to be without spot or blemish for the principle.

Trying to make Israel with spot or blemish is an absurdity. Its history is loaded with sin.

By the way, Isaiah never proclaimed Israel Messiah. Isaiah 53 is never talking about Israel. Verse 8 isn't Israel, who has descendents. Christ didn't. Nor verse 9 could never be applied to Israel, who killed God's prophets and more. Christ yes. More non literalists self justification from a prideful people.

Because you are Jewish does not mean you automatically can read the scriptures correctly.
+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.
My, my. Such arrogance.
- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.
You actually wrote nothing. The nation of Israel did not write the scriptures. Selected men from the nation of Israel did.

+++Ben: - You are not too bright, did you know that? I have just found
out from the last two lines above. Sorry, but you have made yourself too
obvious.
Point me to what you wrote.

No. The Bible was not written by a nation, but by individuals within a nation.

By your logic Jews who will burn in Hell are also responsible for the Bible simply by being Jews. Not very good logic on your part.
And God did not select a Jew to begin it all. He selected a man who was neither a Jew or a Gentile.

+++Ben: - You have said that in the beginning.
But you are missing the point. God picks people for their faith, not their genetics.

A nation can be picked as a people but it is still up to the individuals to be good citizens of the nation. You don't get glory simply by your birth certificate.
And I remind you that Abram held the Priest King of Salem as superior. Definitely not a Jew either.

+++Ben: - And I bet you are going to tell me that he was Yeshua. Be sure to provide a scriptural quote.
Wrong again. I was not going to say any such thing. He was simply an extremely devout man of God.
+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.And that is your problem. You are like the Catholics in inventing extra scriptural materials.

+++Ben: - The whole of the NT is extra-scriptural material added against
the injunction of Deuteronomy 4:2; 13:1; and Proverbs 30:6.
Nope. It is in full keeping with the prophecies of the Messiah.
Jews have had a pride issue for millennia. Unfortunately many have not escaped it.

+++Ben: - Because we know the stock we come from: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
They kept their promised. The Mosaic Covenant was annulled due to the descendants failures to do so.

Their glory does not give you automatic glory. You have to earn your own.
That will change at the Second Coming of Christ. But the price is big to get there, which many Jews will not.

+++Ben: - Second coming of Christ! Paul started with that idea two thousand years ago. It was imminent during his lifetime and still is. How
soon is imminent? You are setting yourself up for disappointments.

Ben :aah:
Nope. It began in the OT prophecies.

Imminent is always a term interpreted by the perceptions of the giver. And we are told a thousand years is a day unto the Lord. So, we are only a couple of days past the death of Christ.

[Ben Masada]

Ben, indeed you have missed the point entirely and the Jewish ego that caused God to turn from Israel after the 69th Week is shining through.

+++Ben: - And the only thing you have, to see Yeshua in that prophetical
frame of Daniel about the 70 week/years is assumptions, and assumptions
butter no bread. Besides, the assumptions are not even yours. You have
copied from those who assumed before you.
No. I have the literal words, Ben. Couple them with the prophecies about the Messiah and I have proof.
+++ Ben: - And what's taking you so long to produce the proofs?

Christ fulfilled all the prophecies 100%.
Let us get this straight. There were saints, men of God, before Abram.
Now, pay close attention. Noah, Enoch, Melchizedek and Abram were not Jews. You exist as a Jew due to a non Jewish man.

+++Ben: - Sorry, but you haven't said anything with the above. Every single Jew knows that Abraham was not "Jewish" when he was chosen
to start this People.
And Jews were intended to fulfill the promises given Abraham. To keep the Mosaic Covenant. They have failed to date.
+++Ben: - You only accuse without showing any evidence.

Moses didn't practice Judaism, he simply obeyed God.

+++Ben: - Redounding statement. To practise Judaism is to obey God.
No. To practice Judaism is to follow a man made religion. Judaism abandoned God a long time ago for their own god.
+++Ben: - Which religion is not man-made, yours? Give me a break! Your
religion was made by Paul. Was he not a man? Prove to me when Judaism
abandoned God? You are jealous of the relation the Jewish People has with God.

Jews are to the OT covenant as Catholicism is to the Church. Both have invented their own versions abandoning the truth from God.
+++Ben: - Prove it! If you can't prove it. It won't help to accuse.

Do you do the animal and other sacrifices required in Mosaic Law? No. Do you have the Ark or any other item God gave to Israel for worship purposes? No.

+++Ben: - Animal sacrifices were bounded by the existence of the Temple. They will return when we rebuild our Temple. You will see. What's the connection with having the Ark for worshipping purposes? When the
Jews returned from Baylon they restored the Temple, sacrifices and
worship without having the Ark.
And that rebuilding is during the 70th Week of Daniel which follows the Church Age, during the New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah, prophesied both in the OT and NT.
+++Ben: - You simply speak nonsense!

Even in the OT the Trib, Millennial Kingdom and End of the World is prophesied. As is the restoration of Israel and the Messiah and his Second Coming.
+++Ben: - The world ends for anyone who dies.

Christ is the Messiah by prophecy that you reject. You have no literal Messiah in Judaism because you had to rewrite the meanings to avoid Christ.
+++Ben: One thing is to blah, blah, blah. Another is to prove what you blah.

Why? Because Israel turned from God.

+++Ben: - For a little while only. See Daniel 9:24 for the Everlasting Justice that returned to us when we returned from Babylonian exile. Of the other nations God will make an end, but of Israel He will only chastise
as we deserve. (Jer. 30:11)
No. The 70th Week of Daniel has not yet happened. The 69th Week ended with Christ's death and the cutting off of Israel until the 70th in verse 26. 70 AD is also in verse 26.
+++Ben: - Nothing you say makes sense at all.

You cannot move the given weeks of years time frame back to the Babylon era. 483 years from the decree is about 27 AD, when the 69th Week ended on the cross.
+++Ben: - That's a gospel of assumptions.

The 70 Weeks of Daniel tells you exactly when the Messiah would come. You reject the Messiah because it was not the conquering King Israel wanted.

+++Ben: - Yes, when you use foreign tools to interpret it. That's a Jewish
prophecy. You can't use the tools of Christianity to interpret a Jewish prophecy. The only way to interpret a Jewish prophecy is with Jewish tools. Whenever you express wish to be enlightened on that, I'll allow you
a glance into the truth of that Jewish prophetical frame.
Weeks of years of 360 days each plus the Jewish version of leap adjustments. Not Christian, but Jewish. And no way to pull it back to the Babylon era.
+++Ben: - That prophetic frame of Daniel is Jewish and not Christian.

I know you guys try to do that, just like you try to introduce the European plural of majesty into the the meaning of Elohim. Trouble is the concept was not invented until around 1200 AD.
+++Ben: - At least, we are Jews interpreting a Jewish prophecy.

[quote]+++Ben: - What do you know of that prophetic frame of Danaiel 9:24-27?
Do you wanna get into it with me? You will be surprised of the end results.No, I would not, because you do not read literally. I have heard Jewish theology having everything from trying to name a man to declaring Israel as a nation the Messiah.

+++Ben: - Would you like to know the name of the man who declared Israel to be the Messiah? The name is Isaiah; and I am sure he knew a
little better than you and me. He gives you the Messiah by name; and
that name is definitely not Yeshua but Israel. If you are interested how, let me know. And if you want Israel as the son of God, there will be no
problem; just let me know.
Yea, I figured that was the doctrine you were operating under.
+++Ben: - Do you believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah? I am sure you do. Isaiah didentifies that servant with Israel. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Problem is it takes a perfect man to be a substitution for sin. Examine the sheep offering that had to be without spot or blemish for the principle.
+++Ben: - Israel the Ten Tribes or Messiah ben Joseph died for the sins of
Judah, Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel died without the blemish of the sins of Judah.

Trying to make Israel with spot or blemish is an absurdity. Its history is loaded with sin.
+++Ben: - The sins of Israel don't matter. Israel did not die for his sins. Israel died for the sins of Judah. Therefore, Israel was without the blemish of the sins of Judah.

By the way, Isaiah never proclaimed Israel Messiah. Isaiah 53 is never talking about Israel. Verse 8 isn't Israel, who has descendents. Christ didn't. Nor verse 9 could never be applied to Israel, who killed God's prophets and more. Christ yes. More non literalists self justification from a prideful people.
+++Ben: - If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah
identifies that Servant with Israel in Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4, it is only obvious that Israel is the Messiah. And Israel never killed a single Prophet. That's an antisemitic accusation of the NT.

Because you are Jewish does not mean you automatically can read the scriptures correctly.
+++Ben: - Right, poor creature you are! You don't know that by sticking to Scriptures you are sticking to Judaism. We Jews wrote both.
My, my. Such arrogance.
- Whoa, have you forgotten that we wrote the Bible that you use? If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps a block of wood in the form of a demon. To us, the Scriptures and Jewish Law are one and the same.
You actually wrote nothing. The nation of Israel did not write the scriptures. Selected men from the nation of Israel did.

+++Ben: - You are not too bright, did you know that? I have just found
out from the last two lines above. Sorry, but you have made yourself too
obvious.
Point me to what you wrote.
+++Ben: - To ask me to point to you what I wrote, after I said that we Jews wrote the Scriptures, you must be too dull. I am about to rest my case and stop wasting my time with you.

No. The Bible was not written by a nation, but by individuals within a nation.
+++Ben: - Jewish individuals.

By your logic Jews who will burn in Hell are also responsible for the Bible simply by being Jews. Not very good logic on your part.
+++Ben: - Hell is for those who believe in it; we don't.

And God did not select a Jew to begin it all. He selected a man who was neither a Jew or a Gentile.

+++Ben: - You have said that in the beginning.
But you are missing the point. God picks people for their faith, not their genetics.
+++Ben: - God picks people for their knowledge, not their faith. Where faith begins, knowledge ends, and for lack of knowledge, people perish.

A nation can be picked as a people but it is still up to the individuals to be good citizens of the nation. You don't get glory simply by your birth certificate.
+++Ben: - You must be consuming yourself inside from jealousy of the Jewish People.

And I remind you that Abram held the Priest King of Salem as superior. Definitely not a Jew either.

+++Ben: - And I bet you are going to tell me that he was Yeshua. Be sure to provide a scriptural quote.
Wrong again. I was not going to say any such thing. He was simply an extremely devout man of God.
+++Ben: - I told you already. Judaism or the Scriptures is the same to us.
We are Jews and not Christians.And that is your problem. You are like the Catholics in inventing extra scriptural materials.

+++Ben: - The whole of the NT is extra-scriptural material added against
the injunction of Deuteronomy 4:2; 13:1; and Proverbs 30:6.
Nope. It is in full keeping with the prophecies of the Messiah.
Jews have had a pride issue for millennia. Unfortunately many have not escaped it.

+++Ben: - Because we know the stock we come from: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
They kept their promised. The Mosaic Covenant was annulled due to the descendants failures to do so.
+++Ben: - Read Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus came to confirm the Mosaic Covenant to the letter.

Their glory does not give you automatic glory. You have to earn your own.
That will change at the Second Coming of Christ. But the price is big to get there, which many Jews will not.

+++Ben: - Second coming of Christ! Paul started with that idea two thousand years ago. It was imminent during his lifetime and still is. How
soon is imminent? You are setting yourself up for disappointments.

Ben :aah:
Nope. It began in the OT prophecies.

Imminent is always a term interpreted by the perceptions of the giver. And we are told a thousand years is a day unto the Lord. So, we are only a couple of days past the death of Christ.
+++Ben: - Okay, so wait another thousand.



Ben :ick:

[CoreIssue]

Ben, feel free to stop wasting your time with me if you wish.

Tell me what a Week is in the context of the 70 Weeks and how long 70 weeks are if not a week of years, which is the historical usage in ancient Israel and carried through even into the NT.

70th Week = Trib of Revelation which is literally defined as two periods of 42 months and two period of 1,260 days each which total to 7 years of 30 day months and 360 day years.

That was written by Jews as well.

No, history meshes quite well with this time frame demand. As does historical documentation on the times and usages.

483 years prior to the death of Christ was the decree as well.

[CTZonEdit]

Looks like Ben's 'paradox' is that he is unable to find any real answers in a Jewish bible.

[Ben Masada]

[quote=Ben Masada;34535]When Paul started preaching about Jesus as the Messiah and son of God, he never realized that he had created a huge paradox.

You see, for Jesus to be the Messiah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, who was the one from the Tribe of Judah.


False. Under Mosaic Law an adopted son is treated fully as a biological son.

And of course you want me to take your word for it. Not too convincing. All we need now if for Gentiles to teach Judaism to the Jews. With regards to Tribal inheritance, an adopted child in Judaism could never become of the Tribe of the Father. All else yes, an adopted son would become a fully heir, but never biologically. That's even against Scientific knowledge. You are way off track.

Mary was from the Tribe of Levi. She was of the family of Elizabeth, a descendant of Aaron, the Levite. (Luke 1:5,36) Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.

False argument. The Father triggered the pregnancy via the Holy Spirit. But Joseph took Jesus as his son, which is an adoptive relationship giving him full inheritance rights from Joseph. Making him of the Tribe of Judah.

And again, you continue speaking from the top of your head without any Scriptural knowledge of anything you say. You don't even realize that you are tallking about Greek Mythology. Jesus was Jewish, and not a Greek demigod to be born of God with a woman. If Jesus was not really a biological son of Joseph's, he could have never been of the Tribe of Judah.

On the other hand, if Christians decide to grab the chance of at least make of Jesus the Messiah by agreeing that he was Joseph's biological son, he could not be son of God, and here the situation gets worse because even the doctrine of the Trinity will collapse. That's indeed a paradox that can be accepted only by faith, which requires no explanation. But then again, where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge people perish. (Hosea 4:6)

Nope. No paradox. Your logic is incorrect because the foundational assumptions are incorrect.

Yep! The paradox remains because you haven't said a single word to solve it, but empty assumptions.

Now, if there is anyone out there with wisdom enough to unriddle this paradox, I'll be happy to take my hat off to him or her.

Unriddled. No need to take your hat off, just see the truth.

You don't even know what the Truth is. Let me help you, if you don't mind. Take a look at John 17:17. Jesus says in there that the Truth is the Word of God. Then, if you read Psalm 147:19,20, you will see that God gave His Word to Israel only and to no other people on earth. It means that when Gentiles need instruction in the Word of God, the address is Zion, the Jewish People. That's in Isaiah 2:2,3. Now, you know what is the Truth and where it is found.

[Ben Masada]

Looks like Ben's 'paradox' is that he is unable to find any real answers in a Jewish bible.


How about taking the initiative to enlighten me, if you have what it takes to? I am all ears.

[Ben Masada]

[quote]Ben, feel free to stop wasting your time with me if you wish.

I am not wasting my time with you. I am only fulfilling my mission to serve as light unto the Gentiles according to Isaiah 42:6. Have you ever read Matthew 5:14? That's from Jesus' Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, when Jesus said that we are the light of the world. Now, you can see why I am not wasting my time with you.

Tell me what a Week is in the context of the 70 Weeks and how long 70 weeks are if not a week of years, which is the historical usage in ancient Israel and carried through even into the NT.

In that context, a week is equal to a year. You can read Daniel 9:2, 24. "Seventy weeks are decreed for 70 years to be fulfilled. Not too hard agree? Tha's not a week of years. Not everywhere in the Scriptures the same method of a day for a year is used. It depends with the circumstances.

70th Week = Trib of Revelation which is literally defined as two periods of 42 months and two period of 1,260 days each which total to 7 years of 30 day months and 360 day years.

The Jewish People spent 70 years in exile in Babylon and not 490 years. One has to use of commonsense sometimes.

That was written by Jews as well.

Yes, but not by a Prophet. The 70 week/years written as a prophecy was reported by Jeremiah, who prophesied before the exile. The book of Daniel was written by an unknown author about a hero by the name of Daniel in Babylon. Therefore, the Book was written as history. If you check any website about the Prophets of Israel, it will show you 55 Prophets and Daniel is not one of them. No wonder the Book of Daniel is not among the prophetic books but historical ones.

No, history meshes quite well with this time frame demand. As does historical documentation on the times and usages.

No, it is because you don't know that the frame is historical and not prophetic.

483 years prior to the death of Christ was the decree as well.

Sorry, but the frame of Daniel 9:24-27 has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, but only in the preconceived Christian mind.

[CoreIssue]

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;34538][quote=Ben Masada;34535]And of course you want me to take your word for it. Not too convincing. All we need now if for Gentiles to teach Judaism to the Jews. With regards to Tribal inheritance, an adopted child in Judaism could never become of the Tribe of the Father. All else yes, an adopted son would become a fully heir, but never biologically. That's even against Scientific knowledge. You are way off track.
Problem here is modern Judaism is not the same as ancient Judaism. It is Apostate and why Israel ceased to be the covenant body representing God on the earth.

So don't claim to be the authority on God, Scripture and so on. Does not fly.
Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.
Total lack of understanding Jesus by you.

Link on adoption (http://www.annomundi.com/bible/virgin_birth.htm)

[CoreIssue]

Tell me what a Week is in the context of the 70 Weeks and how long 70 weeks are if not a week of years, which is the historical usage in ancient Israel and carried through even into the NT.In that context, a week is equal to a year. You can read Daniel 9:2, 24. "Seventy weeks are decreed for 70 years to be fulfilled. Not too hard agree? Tha's not a week of years. Not everywhere in the Scriptures the same method of a day for a year is used. It depends with the circumstances.
Try again. Read in context.

Dan 9:2 is the specific time of the desolation of Jerusalem, nothing more:
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.
The 70 Weeks is given at a later time and encompasses far more than the time of desolation of Jerusalem.
24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=NIV#fen-NIV-22013c)] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=NIV#fen-NIV-22013d)] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=NIV#fen-NIV-22013e)]
70 years of desolation but 70 Weeks of Years to fulfill the 70 Weeks, which is still unfulfilled. One week left.

70th Week = Trib of Revelation which is literally defined as two periods of 42 months and two period of 1,260 days each which total to 7 years of 30 day months and 360 day years.The Jewish People spent 70 years in exile in Babylon and not 490 years. One has to use of commonsense sometimes.
Nothing to do with the 70 weeks and the exile was never talked about in the terms of weeks.
That was written by Jews as well.Yes, but not by a Prophet. The 70 week/years written as a prophecy was reported by Jeremiah, who prophesied before the exile. The book of Daniel was written by an unknown author about a hero by the name of Daniel in Babylon. Therefore, the Book was written as history. If you check any website about the Prophets of Israel, it will show you 55 Prophets and Daniel is not one of them. No wonder the Book of Daniel is not among the prophetic books but historical ones.

Amusingly Judaism also takes the prophetic writings in these areas and tries to explain them away as figurative. So the Messiah becomes the nation of Israel itself, which saves the world through its sufferings.

The Jews lost Israel, the Temple, the Ark and all the rest through apostacy. Yet they do no repent but invent excuses.

Now, in keeping with prophecy, including that non prophet Daniel, Israel is restored and fulfilling those non prophet prophecies about it and it stil just ain't so.

Bible has it right, including the NT, the Jews are a prideful and hard hearted people. But one day Israel will turn to Christ.
No, history meshes quite well with this time frame demand. As does historical documentation on the times and usages.No, it is because you don't know that the frame is historical and not prophetic.[/QUOTE]
Amusing claim when the events that have not happened yet are called historical and ones that happened around 27 AD are figuratively shoved back almost over 400 years.
483 years prior to the death of Christ was the decree as well.Sorry, but the frame of Daniel 9:24-27 has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, but only in the preconceived Christian mind.[/QUOTE]
Really? Of course, it is symbolically and figuratively talking about Israel. Right.

Just coincidence that 483 years later Christ fulfills not only Daniel but many of the Prophets prophecies literally.

But of course as a Jew you can get it right. Us Gentiles just are incapable.

[Ben Masada]

And of course you want me to take your word for it. Not too convincing. All we need now if for Gentiles to teach Judaism to the Jews. With regards to Tribal inheritance, an adopted child in Judaism could never become of the Tribe of the Father. All else yes, an adopted son would become a fully heir, but never biologically. That's even against Scientific knowledge. You are way off track.

Problem here is modern Judaism is not the same as ancient Judaism. It is Apostate and why Israel ceased to be the covenant body representing God on the earth.One thing is to say something, another much different is to prove what you say. You continue giving only your word without a single trace of evidence. You are unaware that you are promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which Scholars have classified as a kind of Antisemitism. Israel has never ceased to be the Covenant body representing God on the earth. Read Jeremiah 31:35,36.

So don't claim to be the authority on God, Scripture and so on. Does not fly.Well, who wrote the Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as God's Word, not the Jews? So, what are you talking about? When Jesus said that the Truth is the Word of God in John 17:17, the Psalmist completed it by saying that God has given His Word to Israel only and to no other people on earth. That's in Psalm 147:19,20. This means that when Gentiles need instructions in the Word of God, the address is Zion, the Jewish People. What else do you need?

Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.

Total lack of understanding Jesus by you.That's what you think. You are the one who do not understand Jesus. I belong to the same Faith that Jesus used to, which is Judaism. You might understand Paul, who founded Christianity. Read Acts 11:26.

Link on adoption (http://www.annomundi.com/bible/virgin_birth.htm)

[Jessie]

Looks like Ben's 'paradox' is that he is unable to find any real answers in a Jewish bible.


How about taking the initiative to enlighten me, if you have what it takes to? I am all ears.

such sarcasm....

[CoreIssue]

And of course you want me to take your word for it. Not too convincing. All we need now if for Gentiles to teach Judaism to the Jews. With regards to Tribal inheritance, an adopted child in Judaism could never become of the Tribe of the Father. All else yes, an adopted son would become a fully heir, but never biologically. That's even against Scientific knowledge. You are way off track.

Problem here is modern Judaism is not the same as ancient Judaism. It is Apostate and why Israel ceased to be the covenant body representing God on the earth.One thing is to say something, another much different is to prove what you say. You continue giving only your word without a single trace of evidence. You are unaware that you are promoting the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology, which Scholars have classified as a kind of Antisemitism. Israel has never ceased to be the Covenant body representing God on the earth. Read Jeremiah 31:35,36.
Nonsense. Replacement Theology means Church becomes Israel. It does not. It is different. Israel will return as Covenant Body and the Church will be gone. It has it own special place in eternity as Wife of God. Church is Bride of Christ.

Why don't you clarify that to say Jewish Scholars claims so, not all Scholars? Misleading statement on your part.

Don't try to lump all in with Catholicism and some like it. They do practice Replacement Theology.

Jeremiah speaks of national, not covenant status. Nice try. As a people Israel will never cease. That is not the same as being covenant.

But the OT also speaks of when Israel will be rejected, divorced but later taken back by God. So you are practicing Shopping Cart Theology and non literalism.

So don't claim to be the authority on God, Scripture and so on. Does not fly.Well, who wrote the Scriptures that Jesus used to refer to as God's Word, not the Jews?
Faithful Jews that practiced what God revealed. Just being a Jew does not mean squat if apostate.
So, what are you talking about? When Jesus said that the Truth is the Word of God in John 17:17, the Psalmist completed it by saying that God has given His Word to Israel only and to no other people on earth. Well, John 17 said the truth is for the whole world, which you neglected to mention.

And Israel was suppose to bring the Word to the whole world. It didn't. It failed.

The covenant was to the Israel only, not scriptures and salvation.

How arrogant Jews are that believe they alone can be saved. Even more so those who think being Jews saves them automatically.

Abram was not a Jew and God chose him. Melchizedek was superior to Abram and not a Jew. Enoch was not a Jews and chosen of God. And so on.

The Mosaic Covenant was annulled because Israel failed. To keep it Israel had to obey and follow it. The didn't.

Of course all the OT prophecies dealing with the 70th Week, the Trib, are symbolized out of existence by modern Judaism.

The Abrahamic Covenant is eternal, not the Mosaic. Israel will be back to fulfill the Abrahamic.

I won't quote the NT since you reject it. But it is spelled out quite clearly in Hebrews, in example.

And of course you will try to explain away Jeremiah 31
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2031&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724d)] them, [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%2031&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724e)] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
To be new the old must go away. That is the Mosaic Covenant, which is gone, annulled, as stated in Hebrews.
That's in Psalm 147:19,20. This means that when Gentiles need instructions in the Word of God, the address is Zion, the Jewish People. What else do you need?What an arrogant statement.

We need God, not Jews in the way you state it. You act like a Gentiles cannot read and understand the Bible. Was not true in the OT and is not true today.
Since Jesus is claimed also to be the son of God, he could not be the Messiah because God is not subject to human genealogy.

Total lack of understanding Jesus by you.That's what you think. You are the one who do not understand Jesus. I belong to the same Faith that Jesus used to, which is Judaism. You might understand Paul, who founded Christianity. Read Acts 11:26. You mean the one where he rejected the religion and leaders of the day as apostate and warned them the would be rejected in favor of the Gentiles for awhile?

People were saved before Israel was covenant. Gentiles were saved when Israel was covenant without ever meeting a Jew. Church is current with both Jews and Gentiles in it and people are being saved and will stand as a covenant body before God in eternity.

No, you are the one who does not 'get it.'
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23689b)] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23691c)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23691d)] will not overcome it.[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23691e)]The Church is built upon Jesus.

[a.baker]

Perfectly said Core!!!

So what are you trying to do Ben; convert us to your belief system? Won't work. Hopefully you came here to learn. Lay down the pride of self.