Job

[a.baker]

I think I have this number right. Job 41. What was the beast or animal God was referring to? I wonder because towards the end it talks of scales on its back and fire coming out of its mouth and it having a rock hard belly so no weapon could pierce it. It also talked about earlier in the scripture asking, "can you harness this animal do you dare to open his mouth and put reins in it" something like that. It also said that this animal will show as if it talks sweet and graciously.

My bible said it could be a crocodile its referring to but that doesn't make sense to me with other scripture; for example the fire coming out of its mouth and it burning up everything making it coals.

I bet I am way off but is it talking about Satan. God says this animal He only has control over and never will a man be able to have any control over this animal or bring its death. So therefore because God has control over this animal and we cannot ever, than God is greater, so who can have control or be equal to God. He said this because of the conversations between Job and the other men there. I believe He was talking to Job with 41. I just can't think of an animal men can't tie up and/or kill. The way God talks in this about this animal sounds like men will forever never have its reins on this animal only God who has complete control, so this animal must be for todays times as well not just for those times.

[a.baker]

Does anybody know?

[CoreIssue]

The passage is very figurative.

I think it is talking about a hippo.

[Willy]

Isaiah 27:1 forms a link.:tiphat:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=27&verse=1&version=KJV#1

[CoreIssue]

Isaiah 27:1 forms a link.:tiphat:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=27&verse=1&version=KJV#1
In that day,
the LORD will punish with his sword,
his fierce, great and powerful sword,
Leviathan the gliding serpent,
Leviathan the coiling serpent;
he will slay the monster of the sea.
The problem is it does not fit the context, which goes various more commonly named animals to behemoth to leviathan.

It just does not fit.

[Willy]

not that kind of link. Just a link leviathan with serpent ... word only

[Willy]

The passage is very figurative.

I think it is talking about a hippo.

Sorry, should of refreshed before posting, couldn't see your post. :aah:

... fire breathing hippos?? :flamed:

I can certainly see why this one didn't get invited on the Ark!!

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea. kjv

In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea. niv

How do we get from piercing to gliding; crooked to coiling? :not:

Didn't realize the texts were that different in this area. :swoon:

Willy

[a.baker]

I don't understand it either and it doesn't make sense. I can't think of any animal we have today that man cannot kill, might not be easy but can be done. Even dropping huge rocks unto an animals head could work even if its skin is too tough to pierce. Theres always a way. I found this confusing and want to know but we will probably never know for sure.

O.k. for the figurative speaking with the fire, does God refer to any other animals in that same manor? That would help answer this question I believe.

[a.baker]

Thanks for that finding Willy!

[a.baker]

Sometimes in scripture we have little to go on and must just let it be whatever it is and let it rest. Be at peace without knowing everything. Its just hard to understand what God is talking about when it comes to animals sometimes on how to take it. If its an actual animal that did these things I do believe it must not be around any more. Maybe your right Willy it didn't get on the ark....?

[Willy]

I think I have this number right. Job 41. What was the beast or animal God was referring to? I wonder because towards the end it talks of scales on its back and fire coming out of its mouth and it having a rock hard belly so no weapon could pierce it. It also talked about earlier in the scripture asking, "can you harness this animal do you dare to open his mouth and put reins in it" something like that. It also said that this animal will show as if it talks sweet and graciously.

My bible said it could be a crocodile its referring to but that doesn't make sense to me with other scripture; for example the fire coming out of its mouth and it burning up everything making it coals.

I bet I am way off but is it talking about Satan. God says this animal He only has control over and never will a man be able to have any control over this animal or bring its death. So therefore because God has control over this animal and we cannot ever, than God is greater, so who can have control or be equal to God. He said this because of the conversations between Job and the other men there. I believe He was talking to Job with 41. I just can't think of an animal men can't tie up and/or kill. The way God talks in this about this animal sounds like men will forever never have its reins on this animal only God who has complete control, so this animal must be for todays times as well not just for those times.
Hi Amanda,

Whenever I read or talk to a Christian I try to be conscious of two things. One is the ego or natural part of the person. The other is the Spiritual aspect of the person. If we are born again we are operating in dual mode flesh and Spirit in this age. Most of what we say or write is a combination of the two natures. That of itself is a good thing to remember. You might feel moved to be very spiritual and lay all the truth on the line but remember the person you are answering has a dual warring make-up. Be sensitive to both if possible. …not a criticism of any but leading into the next thought.
One thing I have found is that the flesh does not readily wish to talk about or acknowledge the existence of Satan. Satan does not want himself in the limelight so to speak and when someone brings up the name I get a little tweak. So while your exposition is not addressing the contextual meaning of Job 41, your apprehension of the characteristics of Leviathan and a possible link with the adversary seem valid.

I did a word search for Leviathan and found that it is used only 4 times in the Scriptures. Job 41:1, Psalm 74:14, Psalm 104:26, and Isaiah 27:1. In Job 3:8 the Hebrew word is translated into a different English word.

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

So, we have a hit. God chose to use the word leviathan in association with the word serpent and dragon in a part of scripture dealing with the restoration of Israel and setting up of the millennial kingdom … future,… double check with Core on that one. So, in my mind we have the casting of Satan into the pit for one thousand years.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Isa&chapter=27&verse=1&version=KJV#1

I think the study helps at the top of the page supply the same info. I find this one easy to use.


If you click on each of the Strong’s numbers for each of the words in the verse, you will get an expounded meaning of that word. This can be a great tool to add hidden qualities of meaning and essential if working with English translations.
For instance if I double click on Strong’s number 1281 the number for the word piercing, we see that it has the thought of fleeing as in a fugitive fleeing. This may add to our understanding of the word. Crooked, Strong’s number 1629 reads “bent out of shape.” Now I am not going to suggest that this is an attribute of Satan or maybe how Satan will feel as our Lord deals with him, but it does draw out certain visions.

Is Leviathan of Job the Leviathan of Isaiah 21? I don’t know if we can go that far.
…. Although if memory serves me, isn’t the accusation against Job made by Satan before the throne of God? And isn’t it Satan that brings constrained calamity upon him? God might have been revealing this in the context that Job really was at his (Satan’s) mercy and had no power or control over him.

So, while this is may not be the primary context of Job 41, I believe you have a valid point concerning the physical attributes of Leviathan and had a little tweak from the Spirit to notice this. Nurture this gift. Remember, the Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit. They must go hand in hand.

Willy :nod:

[a.baker]

That makes a lot of sense Willy and thank you so much for your time in answering my questions and helping me understand. Thank you very much for the info. you gave me. That is good scripture you found and I will write it down and go and look it up. I always need the scriptural context. :)

I come here to CTZ because I am scared to go search myself afraid I might find something wrong and twisted and I being so young and unknowing of many many things I am afraid I am vulnerable to that in some ways. I try very hard to look at the bible for the straightforward meaning. But I get confused with some things in the OT and once in awhile things in the NT. Every time I read I see something I didn't see before. Every thought thats pops into my mind I am always trying to test it and second guess it to see whose thought it is, not always easy.

I guess I have a hard time with myself, lol I am always praying and asking God to protect me from myself, but at the same time that shows how much I need Him and put all my confidence in Him and rely on Him only. Hmm maybe this is where that saying comes from "You are your own worst enemy".

And I trust God will put forth those He works through within my reach to help assist me in this. And to how many ways God lays His hand upon things in His own way is so very amazing. I just stand back in joyful awe. Oh how He proves to be living everyday. I can't believe He listens to my prayers, just think God listening to me?... after all the world is His footstool, who am I what am I, but nothing. And God does this for all of us that want to truly and heartfully want to know Him and He know us. His wisdom and knowledge is just astounding, how could anyone speak in His presence or have the strength to stand.

It blows my mind. Sorry I am going on and on and I could go on and on and no matter what I say or how I say it I could never give God enough with these words. God is greater than the world and heavens and everything in it that I become speechless and fall to His feet. But I know all of us Christians that truly know God know all these things.

Sorry my blabbering has nothing to do with this thread but it is hard at times to keep my mouth quiet when my heart is flooding with joy.

[a.baker]

Oh and in the beginning of Job it was Satan who was pursuing Job and he went to God to ask if he could put Job through many things assuming Job would react like this or that.

[a.baker]

I read the full scripture of what you highlighted and it sounds like what you said, that Leviathan might have two different meanings.

In Job 41 it still comes to mind what I mentioned before.
In Psalm 74 is talking of nothing but the enemy than mentions the Leviathan.
In Psalm 104 talks of many animals and the Leviathan as being of the sea.
In Isaiah 27 it is as you mentioned above, a monster of the sea, serpent. This scripture is talking about the deliverance of Israel.

[CoreIssue]

It does not fit the context of the passage.

A Hippo is one vicious character. It spews water out of it nostrils when rises, which looks like fire in sunlight at times, it comes out on the land, it has extremely thick skin, a very powerful neck, incredibly strong bones and so on.

The language here is poetic, figurative.

The weapons of the day when this was written absolutely could not kill a hippo.

You did not anger one and cause it to come up or out of the water after you.

Look at chapter 40 where it talks about an elephant. Bones are tubes of bronze.

Descriptive language is used to convey images of power, not literal fact.

Actual animal after animal in the grammatical and contextual construction and usage. No linguistic or logical reason to jump to Satan here.

Leviathan is used five times in the Bible.
Job 3:8
Job 41
Keep the same context here. No literalist scholar or theologian I am aware of says it is Satan.
Psalm 74:14
Used as food.
Psalm 104:24-26
Sea creature that plays in the sea.
Isaiah 27:1
Only place serpent is used.

What does Leviathan mean?
Strong's Number: 3882 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=03882&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin !tywlfrom (03867 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=3867&version=nas)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03882&version=nas#Legend) Entry LivyathanTWOT - 1089b Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech liv-yaw-thawn' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3882h) Noun Masculine Definition


leviathan, sea monster, dragon

large aquatic animal
perhaps the extinct dinosaur, plesiosaurus, exact meaning unknown ++++ Some think this to be a crocodile but from the description in Job 41 this is patently absurd. It appears to ba a large fire breathing animal of some sort. Just as the bomardier beetle has an explosion producing mechanism, so the great sea dragon may have an explosive producing mechanism to enable it to be a real fire breathing dragon.



Only some Young Earthers use meaning B.

[a.baker]

To add to that isn't Satan referred to other names as well i.e. dragon and serpent in Revelations?

Job 41 also speaks of as being one of the sea because of the words of fishhook and later talking about stirring up the sea leaving a glistening wake. But this is why it came to me that this is Satan being talked about and not an animal in Job 41,

41:3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?

41:4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?

41:8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

41:9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.

41:10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who than is able to stand against me?

41:22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him.

41:25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing.

41:26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

41:34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud.



The whole scripture of 41 strikes me as God talking about Satan but the lines I put above are highlighted to me that this is no beast of the earth God is referring to but Satan himself . These lines is why I questioned what the Leviathan is. Also notice how in the bible Leviathan is always capitalized as if referring to a name except for Psalm 104:26 and Job 41:1. The others are capitalized in the middle of sentences, not because of the beginning of sentences. Also what got me thinking is that God doesn't always refer to an animal as being an animal of earth.

[a.baker]

But a hippo does not reside in the sea or is the greatest in the sea.

[a.baker]

Here's one from Revelations 12:13-13:1 and 20:2. Not trying to say anything about the scripture here except that what Satan was referred to in name here. No it doesn't say Leviathan but it does say dragon, serpent, dwelling of the sea standing on the shore of the sea, and what spewing out of his mouth.

[CoreIssue]

To add to that isn't Satan referred to other names as well i.e. dragon and serpent in Revelations?
Correct.
Job 41 also speaks of as being one of the sea because of the words of fishhook and later talking about stirring up the sea leaving a glistening wake.
Sea = Nile, not ocean or anything like that here. The Hebrews didn't limit the defintion to what we limit it to.

Hippos are abundant in the Nile. Elephants near the Nile. As well as the other animals mentioned.

Again, you have to be consistent in contextual usage. You cannot just throw in Satan without justification.
But this is why it came to me that this is Satan being talked about and not an animal in Job 41,

41:3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words?

41:4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life?

41:8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

41:9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering.

41:10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who than is able to stand against me?

41:22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him.

41:25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing.

41:26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

41:34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud.Nothing here does not apply to Hippos. It is figurative language, not literal.

You cannot negotiate with a Hippo and if you tangle and live you will remember it.

No one along the Nile messes with Hippos. They give them respect and wide berth.

If you ever watch films about them they will stand there and stare at something unwelcome as if they are amazed it dares to be there. Then they lash out in attack.

They fear nothing.
The whole scripture of 41 strikes me as God talking about Satan but the lines I put above are highlighted to me that this is no beast of the earth God is referring to but Satan himself .That disregards the elephant in Chapter 40 which God give even higher status to than the hippo, here.

When all you have it spears, swords and arrows, the Hippo is invincible.
These lines is why I questioned what the Leviathan is. Also notice how in the bible Leviathan is always capitalized as if referring to a name except for Psalm 104:26 and Job 41:1. The others are capitalized in the middle of sentences, not because of the beginning of sentences. Also what got me thinking is that God doesn't always refer to an animal as being an animal of earth.But you have to have contextual reason to make the leap to Satan.

Nothing in the passage justifies it. Every descriptive in there applies to Hippos. Grammar, linguistic style, context and purpose all point to hippos.

[a.baker]

A hippo or any other large or fierce animal does not have rows of shields on its back (which scripture went into detail about) my bible also referred to it as his pride was his shields.

Job 41:31-32 is very striking of this as being of the sea.

[CoreIssue]

Here's one from Revelations 12:13-13:1 and 20:2. Not trying to say anything about the scripture here except that what Satan was referred to in name here. No it doesn't say Leviathan but it does say dragon, serpent, dwelling of the sea standing on the shore of the sea, and what spewing out of his mouth.
None of which demand Job 41 be Satan.

God is using actual animals in figurative ways to describe Satan.

There were and are actual animals called dragons, in example.

[a.baker]

But what about Leviathan in Isaiah 27 talking about deliverance of Israel, it doesn't just say dragon or serpent it says Leviathan.

And again in Revelations Satan dwelling in the sea.

[CoreIssue]

A hippo or any other large or fierce animal does not have rows of shields on its back (which scripture went into detail about) my bible also referred to it as his pride was his shields.

Job 41:31-32 is very striking of this as being of the sea.
Yes they do. Your skin is composed of rows of scales/shields tightly together, which is part of the description.

As far as pride, a warriors pride is in his skill and defenses. So, not surprising or out of keeping with a hippo they are prideful animals that do not fear anything.

They will attack boats even.

[a.baker]

But why would a hippo be the number one animal as being fierce, what about the elephants who are huge in herds and will become fierce when attacked and have tough skin, killer whales how could you hook one of those without it pulling your boat down and how would it stay around long enough for you to pierce over and over again, and what about rhinos and they way they are ect.

Yes I have read many things about hippos but I don't see them as the toughest or scariest animal. I see many animals that are. If there was an animal you could pierce that doesn't mean you can bring it down. And there are very few animals of the wild you could harness and there are animals of the sea you could not hook.

And what about the detail of the scales or shields?

[a.baker]

And they have attacked boat and eaten people many times I know.

But what about this? Job 41:34? He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud.
How does it become king over peoples pride if people can't capture a hippo and bring it down?

[CoreIssue]

And they have attacked boat and eaten people many times I know.

But what about this? Job 41:34? He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud.
How does it become king over peoples pride if people can't capture a hippo and bring it down?
Again you are trying to turn figurative into literal.

Hippos rule the Nile. They don't care if it is a peasant, soldier or king. The Nile is there domain and they look down on all who enter. They will shatter the pride of the haughty.

Other words, they don't give a flip who you are or think you are. On their turf they rule and they know it.

[a.baker]

And in a post back I mentioned that Leviathan was capitalized not in Job but in the other two scriptures as if a name, whats that mean? Maybe Leviathan has two meanings. So if Job 41 is about an animal, which I still can't see it as any animal I know of currently, but what do I know, it does seem God refers to Satan as this animal in other scripture.

[a.baker]

Job 3:8 has it capitalized too. Didn't look at that one before just the two Psalms and Isaiah.

[a.baker]

Job 3:8 speaks of Leviathan as darkness which would have to be Satan. The whole Job 3 talks light and darkness.

[a.baker]

Another question comes to mind with the literal I am now confused on. I thought we were supposed to read the bible literally, can you define that for me. I understand how it can't all be taken literally for example the example you gave above of the description we see of the elephant. We see this a lot in the bible OT and NT. That is something I see being spoken of often. Not trying to side track but I have heard to read the bible literally over and over again. In fact my mil once attacked me on that issue verbally. So in confusing scripture how does one know exactly how to read it? Again not trying to side track but now I feel frustrated in trying to read the bible and what it says. If God made the bible so any that want to read it can understand it... know what I'm saying here?

[a.baker]

So 41 now looks to me like an animal, who knows what animal, but other scripture referring to Leviathan does not look like a animal being talked about, other scripture does appear to be referring to Satan. So thanks for clearing that up for me but now I am frustrated with reading the bible LOL not the first time.

[CoreIssue]

Job 3:8 has it capitalized too. Didn't look at that one before just the two Psalms and Isaiah.
A translators choice, not in the Hebrew. But most assuredly it is not used solely for Satan.
Job 3:8 speaks of Leviathan as darkness which would have to be Satan. The whole Job 3 talks light and darkness.
No. It does not speak of Leviathan. It says may the day of Job's birth turn to the darkness of the womb. That he had never seen the light of day by being born.

Curse the day that he was born. Those ready to arouse Leviathan, meaning Job, from his water depths, his mother's womb.

The whole passage is about his birth and it would have been better he was never born. He longs for death but cannot get it.

[a.baker]

So how do we read the bible? And yes Job 3 does mention the name. And of course he is referring to his birth.

[a.baker]

Please also Isiah....

[CoreIssue]

So how do we read the bible? And yes Job 3 does mention the name. And of course he is referring to his birth.
Good question on how to read. You read it fully literally unless there is a contextual, grammatical or linquistic demand to read figuratively. Then you look for where the Bible gives a literal definition to the terms used and apply them back or it is recognized form of ancient speech that has a literal meaning.

Satan has Dragon is used in a number of places. But one place literally states that Satan is the Dragon. So there you have the term defined.

Christ called some people snakes, vipers and such. But that was a known usage referring to their personal qualities of being deceptive, poisonous, etc.

In Revelation the Israel is called the Woman. In the OT Israel is literally called a woman, the Wife of God (Father). Each Tribe is a star and the glory of Israel. Again, literally defined.

24 Elders of Revelation are literally defined as the Elders of the 24 Divisions of Israel in the OT.

The Ten Horns and 7 Kings of the Beast in Revelation are literally defined in the Statue and Beasts of Daniel.

So, the Bible is truly a literal book, once you see how it works in the full usage.

You do not doe what many do, meaning if you don't like the meaning or misinterpret some portion of the Bible act as if they justifies reading other parts as figurative to make them just fit.

You go back and see where a literal meaning harmonizes to correct your error. And you accept that your not liking it does not matter for truth.

Many do not like what happens in Revelation because they don't want to see God as able to do those things. They need to change their view of God.

And on and on.

[a.baker]

Thanks. I started a new thread because I am becoming overwhelmed with frustration today, where is this coming from ,I don't know but I feel it increasing. I am becoming really angry and frustrated with myself that I cannot understand, oh how much I prayed and want to understand, knowing this all takes time but something that should be simple and I can't understand it makes me so mad at myself and becoming hard to concentrate. LOL I did this in school when things were taught to me many ways and I still didn't understand I felt well kinda stupid and despised myself, but unlike school I refuse to give up on reading the bible and give in to myself.

[CoreIssue]

Please also Isiah....
In that day,
the LORD will punish with his sword,
his fierce, great and powerful sword,
Leviathan the gliding serpent,
Leviathan the coiling serpent;
he will slay the monster of the sea.
In that day places this issue during the Day of the Lord, here the Second Coming.

Sword is also figurative of the power of his words. Literally defined elsewhere.

Satan is called Worm, Serpent and Dragon.

Sea is figurative of huge numbers of people. In Revelation the Dragon is on the shore of the sea, not in it or rising from it

The AC rises out of the sea of people of the Toes. The Toes are elaborated on elsewhere as being weak and strong people and nations.

But note the FP does not rise out of the sea, but the earth, meaning where the demon comes from to enter the human AC.

At the Second Coming Christ has an angel, probably Michael, chain Satan and cast him into the Pit.

Everything is laid out there from time, place and context to outcome.

[a.baker]

Sorry just really angry dealing with myself today lol if that makes sense.
:hug:

lol I kinda feel the way Job did on many levels, thats why I read it in the first place.

[CoreIssue]

Thanks. I started a new thread because I am becoming overwhelmed with frustration today, where is this coming from ,I don't know but I feel it increasing. I am becoming really angry and frustrated with myself that I cannot understand, oh how much I prayed and want to understand, knowing this all takes time but something that should be simple and I can't understand it makes me so mad at myself and becoming hard to concentrate. LOL I did this in school when things were taught to me many ways and I still didn't understand I felt well kinda stupid and despised myself, but unlike school I refuse to give up on reading the bible and give in to myself.
It can be hard at times. Especially if trying to get past years of learning the wrong things or in the wrong ways.

[a.baker]

Thanks for the Isaiah!

[a.baker]

lol again I am my own worst enemy so true in so many ways. lol I can be a real pain in the butt to teach. I must ignore myself to get back to level ground to learn.

[Willy]

Amanda,

You defended a position that has been debated by bible scholars since debating began, ... and you presented your position very well. If you feel that somehow it was not appropriate to take such a strong stance, or that you lost horribly, then I disagree with you. This is not an assembly of gathered Christians in a formal worship, teaching, prayer, or Lords Supper environment. ... It is a debate forum and a good one and you are a big part of it. ... I'm still working out who made the better arguments. Good job both of you.

:tennis: