Daniel 9:25-Not the past

[wiselady]

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

rebuilding Jerusalem is the body of Christ, the people, this is the time to do so folks, confession, changes and the likes,

the Anointed one spoken about in this verse is Anointed by Man not God, because Jesus Christ is not cut off with NOTHING, he has everything. I can just imagine Jesus up in heaven "how could anyone think I have nothing, stand back satan"

the trenches that are spoken about I found an article a few weeks I am going to try to locate again, Rome is looking into redoing the trenches' this year.

[CoreIssue]

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

rebuilding Jerusalem is the body of Christ, the people, this is the time to do so folks, confession, changes and the likes,
You neglected the key verse that refutes you.
24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22013c)] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22013d)] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22013e)]That is Isreal and Jerusalem. Daniel's people was Israel and his Holy City was Jerusalem.

the Anointed one spoken about in this verse is Anointed by Man not God, because Jesus Christ is not cut off with NOTHING, he has everything. I can just imagine Jesus up in heaven "how could anyone think I have nothing, stand back satan"Jesus WAS cut off, killed, at the end of the 69th Week about 27 AD, which was 69 holy Weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. The Hebrew word means:


to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant


the trenches that are spoken about I found an article a few weeks I am going to try to locate again, Rome is looking into redoing the trenches' this year.You are reading totally non-literally. No basis, just theory. Violation of grammar and semantics.

['67Scofield]

I want all the facts on this.

I've seen where it's from the decree to rebuild the temple to where Jesus enters Jerusalem as the Prince on what we now celebreate as Palm Sunday.

I've seen dates of 455 BC to 32 AD.

Do we have other historical records to confirm?

Ya'lls the best!

[kay-gee]

Are there Bible verses for any of this stuff?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

The decree and subsequent decrees are covered in such as Ezra and Nehemiah. As well has historical records.

The decree was in 456-455 BC. There were subsequent reauthorizing decrees after, but this was the original.

Daniel states that Christ will come in the 69th week. He did with his mission beginning mid 69th Week and lasting 3.5 years.

Daniel states Christ would be cut off at the end of the 69th Week, which he was.

Cut off means killed. Attempts to define otherwise are inaccurate.

'After' means it closes the 69th Week or is the immediate next even with nothing intervening. So any way you slice of dice it Christ did not come at the end of the 69th Week nor did he die during the 70th Week.

A Hebrew Week is also called a Week or Years and means a period of 7 years. Their years were 12 months of 30 days each with various 'leap' months added at times in a complex forumula around ceremonial years and such. But they ended up averaging 365 days a year.

Note here Revelation is a Week of Years, the 70th Week of Daniel and is clearly defined as such by interchangably using terms like 1,260 days and 42 months, both of which equal 3.5 years of 30 day months on a Week of Year basis.

So, 69 Weeks after the decree until Christ dies:

69 X 7 = 483 years
455 BC + 483 years = 28 AD
456 BC + 483 years = 27 AD

That is exactly when Christ died and it fits perfection with a birth year of 7 BC which fits the Bible and historical events as compared to the Bible.

But believe me, the historical events get complex because one has to allow for how the Romans looked at events compared to how we look at events on some issues.

Now for the 70th Week.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Happened in 70 AD. The Prince who came with his Roman legions later became the Emperor.

For those who try to equate this ruler to Christ, it will not work. Different Hebrew words for ruler were used with the first only applying to Jews and this one only to Gentiles.
The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.Just read history from 70 AD until today and now.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' Has not happened yet. This is the coming of the AC as shown in the First Seal. Bow without arrows is conquering with peace. a treaty.
In the middle of the 'seven' [j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016j)] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. As shown in Revelation. In Thessalonians it is when the AC enters the Temple, sits on the thrown of God in the Holy of Holies and declares himself god.
And on a wing [I] of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,The image of the AC that the False Prophet sets up and seemingly makes live who will oversee the the giving of the Mark and receive worship.

This is the Satan, the Dragon, entering the dragon, the statue, and making it seem alive. At the 6th Bowl an evil spirit comes out of the mouths of the false trinity, the AC, FP and dragon, so it has to be The Dragon in the dragon, meaning Satan in the image of the AC. Satan has no evil spirit within him so he must be within it.
until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016k)] " [l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016l)]AC is cast into the Pit, alive, at the Second Coming of Christ.

['67Scofield]

25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.


One verse seems to be saying 69 weeks and the other 62 weeks for the same event?

[CoreIssue]

25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.


One verse seems to be saying 69 weeks and the other 62 weeks for the same event?
It says 7 first, then 62, which totals 69. The 7 are not part of the 62. The 62 follow the 7.

['67Scofield]

25And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.


One verse seems to be saying 69 weeks and the other 62 weeks for the same event?
It says 7 first, then 62, which totals 69. The 7 are not part of the 62. The 62 follow the 7.

Ok, i see. It's just a continuation of the thought. ei. "Jimmy went out the door and went down the steps. After he went down the steps he bruised his heel."

['67Scofield]

Our latest volley...

ME : The Book of Daniel contains many great prophecies, this is one of them.
This one shows to (at least) the year when Christ would be heralded as king and subsequently killed.


Daniel 9: 20 -25

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.


A Hebrew Week is also called a Week or Years and means a period of 7 years. Their years were 12 months of 30 days each with various 'leap' months added at times in a complex formula around ceremonial years and such. But they ended up averaging 365 days a year.

Note here you may recall in Revelation is a Week of Years, the 70th Week of Daniel which is also called the Great Tribulation and is clearly defined as such by interchangably using terms like 1,260 days and 42 months, both of which equal 3.5 years of 30 day months on a Week of Year basis.

So, 69 Weeks after the decree until Christ dies:

69 X 7 = 483 years

The decree and subsequent decrees are covered in such as Ezra and Nehemiah. As well as historical records.

The decree was in 456-455 BC. There were subsequent reauthorizing decrees after, but this was the original.

Daniel states that Christ will come in the 69th week. He did with his mission beginning mid 69th Week and lasting 3.5 years.

Daniel states Christ would be cut off at the end of the 69th Week, which he was.

Cut off means killed. Attempts to define otherwise are inaccurate.

'After' means it closes the 69th Week or is the immediate next even with nothing intervening. So any way you slice of dice it Christ did not come at the end of the 69th Week nor did he die during the 70th Week.

455 BC + 483 years = 28 AD
456 BC + 483 years = 27 AD

That is exactly when Christ died and it fits perfection with a birth year of 7 BC which fits the Bible and historical events as compared to the Bible.

Where all this comes from is the fact that Israel refused to rest the land every seven years as instructed by God. They did this for 70yrs.
According to Mosaic law if you stole from someone you had to pay them back seven times. So the Jews owed God 490 years. Because the age of the Gentiles interrupted this judgement, they still 'owe' God 7 more years.

So is this some of the type of evidence you have been whinning for? http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/fists%20crying.gif

http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/popcorn.gif Chew on that ladies.

edit - oh btw, Daniel wrote this circa 600BC, 150 years before the city began to be rebuilt in 455BC.


http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif
Are you saying the jews were "DUE" this "punishment"???


ME : It doesn't matter whether i think God is just.

The point i'm making is that the Bible predicted the death of Jesus 600 years in advance. That doesn't impress you?


no it doesn't impress me that the bible predicted something that may NOT have actually happened.

To me, it's like asking me if it impressed me that Yoda predicted Lukes abilities with the force.


ME : No no no. http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/dazed025.gif

That Jesus died by the Romans is a historical FACT.

The decree to rebuild the city of Jersalem in 455BC by the Persians is a FACT.

Both these are supported by other sources than the Bible as you requested.

What you got to say now?


Jesus was a VERY common name at the time, there were probably hundreds of Jesus's killed by the romans.


ME : Come on Muse.. http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/confused13.gif

No MUSE, it's not a case of mistaken identity. http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/eyesre4.gif

There a conversation recording Pilate's dealings with Jesus. It's the same man.

it's late, i must retire.

tip of the iceburg...more to come. http://www.therushforum.com/html/emoticons/smile.gif


Still the only evidence you have is words on paper. Please send links. The only ones i found were not very convincing. Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Nero
are speaking of jesus, the legend (myth) not necessarily a real man.

(He says this even tho he's admitted to believing that Jesus actually existed.)

------------------------------------------------------

So we got anything else we can present?
I know he just trying to dogde the obvious -the fact that Daniel predicts the death of One called the Messiah 600 years in advance, but i thought there may be some more evidence that could be presented dealing with this.
If not, that's cool, there's plenty there already to shoot at um.

Thanks so much CI.:tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

Hmmm. How about the prophecies of his birth, how he would live and so on?

Those are in the OT as well.

['67Scofield]

Hmmm. How about the prophecies of his birth, how he would live and so on?

Those are in the OT as well.

Would rather stick with this point.

What he wants are non-Biblical historical records to these two events.
1. The decree to rebuild the temple.
2. The execution or trial of Jesus

He says Josephus portrays Jesus as a myth.
Is this true?

[CoreIssue]

Hmmm. How about the prophecies of his birth, how he would live and so on?

Those are in the OT as well.

Would rather stick with this point.

What he wants are non-Biblical historical records to these two events.
1. The decree to rebuild the temple.
2. The execution or trial of Jesus

He says Josephus portrays Jesus as a myth.
Is this true?
Nope.
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
Written by Josephus.

Other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus) historical references.

Right now I cannot remember where to look for the decree historical evidence. But there is some.

So, when is enough evidence enough? :D

['67Scofield]

Ok, i got another bite. (from a different fish)

I'll throw it back at you. You prove to me that the entire bible wasn't written much later than all the events recounted within.
Just because someone else tells you that it was done at a certain time doesn't make it so.

btw, thks 4 the link. I'll go back to it and check for an answer to this.

I'm looking for evidence that the old testament books were written at the time the books themselves say they were written.

[CoreIssue]

Ok, i got another bite. (from a different fish)

I'll throw it back at you. You prove to me that the entire bible wasn't written much later than all the events recounted within.
Just because someone else tells you that it was done at a certain time doesn't make it so.btw, thks 4 the link. I'll go back to it and check for an answer to this.

I'm looking for evidence that the old testament books were written at the time the books themselves say they were written.
Well, first of all that is negative proof demand, which is not acceptable in logic or debate.

It is on their head to prove it wasn't by all rules of evidence.

Second, historians agree the Books of the Bible were written between about 1,500 BC and 100 AD.

Third, manuscript evidence for the Bible is more extensive than any other ancient historical reality. So to reject it requires rejecting all of ancient history. Read (http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htm) - some of these manuscripts exist from the late life or shortly after the death of the authors and most assuredly during the life of some of their students and acquaintances.

[watchman333]

Dear Scofield,
The Holy Bible was written by the Holy Spirit, using holy men of old to write precisely what He wanted them to say. For instance, David wrote the 22nd psalm, the Lord's crucifixion psalm, 1,000 years before the Lord went on the cross. The truth is in the details. Were you named after a rifle?