Wake up America

[InTheWind]

I`m saddened and confused at what i am seeing, Obama belongs to a racist church for 20 years then wants us to believe he has left it. apparently refuses to pledge allegiance to the flag, wants to take all our guns away so we can`t protect ourselves. This looks alot like a man that has more on his mind than leading the country down a road that is based on the constitution.
What really gets me is how the young people are supporting him and his multi religious and controlling goals for the country.
There`s something rotten in the wood pile imo. :(

[CoreIssue]

Truly scary he has made it this far in politics. Shame on America.

[kay-gee]

I really really thought Hillary had a chance. I am not an American but I love America and want to see her do well. Now I have no idea what the future holds in store!

all the best...

[InTheWind]

When ya have people saying it`s time for a black prez and that being the only reason to vote for him something is wrong.
Sheep being led to slaughter is the first thing that comes to mind when listening to Dem. supporters. :(

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I wouldn't mind seeing a black president....or a red president....or a blue president. You get my drift. But, voting for him just because of that? Nope! I dissect their politics, and choose the best candidate I see. That's what everyone should do, but sadly, that's not the case.

There have been times throughout these campaigns that it almost seems as if Obama has the crowds bewitched. I just shook my head and remained thankful that God in Heaven has always known this before it occurred.

Sometimes sheep aren't led to the slaughter....they run willingly.

[CoreIssue]

Like all the nations of the world the US has lost its way. People are not looking for black and white truth but trying to find satisfaction in shades of gray.

Does not work, will not work and never has worked.

[a.baker]

Funny you mention the shades of gray because that is what my last church tried to preach. I knew that didn't sound good and there was something wrong with it.

And there is a sense of ignorance rising in our country when people have no idea who their voting for or whats currently going on in war. Its like buying a car without ever test driving it. Than these same ones want to point the finger at everything and everyone else when something goes wrong. They need to turn that finger around and point it at themselves and take full responsibility.

[a.baker]

I can see everyone running into the desert in a few more years from now. Nothing about Obama really but this speaks volumes for the near future.

[InTheWind]

I kinda always figured there would come a time when people won`t listen anymore about anything especially how to be saved.
When things are so messed up there isn`t any work for the church anymore.
I think we are drawing close to that time and the time Gods time clock starts and the trib beginning.

[Jessie]

just like the bible said, people are turning to fables.

not just spiritualy but in other areas as well.

some of the nonsense taught as fact is so foolish.

all going backwards

[Christian]

Haha, I must see hearing someone associate a black man with racism is new for me! I could see Hillary being a good president beings she's too two-faced and weak not to do what everyone wants her too, and fortunately for us there's still a good bulk of Christian influence in politics. Obama is more of a "People have the right to be wrong in America." Which is credibly open minded, but Government's exist for a reason. I'm also skeptical having an enemy for a President. I actually have to vote for McCain, if anyone, at this rate. At least we know things will stay the same that way right?

Ps: InTheWind, is your name based on the Bob Dylan song by chance?

[InTheWind]

Ps: InTheWind, is your name based on the Bob Dylan song by chance?

Nope, just a name i thought up because i`m in the wind all the time on my Harley.

[CoreIssue]

I actually have to vote for McCain, if anyone, at this rate. At least we know things will stay the same that way right?

I think it will get worse. McCain is an honorable man but he is way too liberal.

I am doing a protest vote with Barr.

The Republicans are no better than the dems on a lot of things now.

[Christian]

Good call. I'm still contemplating what to do, myself.

[a.baker]

I feel many who are awake will not be able to stomach to vote for any who are running right now. I see a lose lose here. So I will let the world decide their worldly leader I suppose. I am not trying to be negative. I just see those running as a loss of hope; my hope is in the Lord. I love the prayer Jesus prayed for us in John 17: 20-26 .

[Church@therock]

I think that many people in a state of mind to win the hearts and votes of many people will add in reilgon but most of the time they r not even saved. We need to truly look into there hearts and see if they r saved by there fruits of salvation. Hukabee tried that and it worked most likly he is noy saved

[CoreIssue]

I think that many people in a state of mind to win the hearts and votes of many people will add in reilgon but most of the time they r not even saved. We need to truly look into there hearts and see if they r saved by there fruits of salvation. Hukabee tried that and it worked most likly he is noy saved
Why? What has he said or done that would give any justification for judging his salvation?

[bobrobert]

Democrats are not well received here. :-)

Republicans have not done much for our country in the past eight years.

We are in a war for oil that cannot be won.

We are in a war against terrorists that the administration chooses not to wage.

The Republicans can take our right to trial by jury away if they want to claim a citizen is a terrorist.

Democrats are bad???

Democrats are evil???

Democrats do not support torture - for any reason.

Democrats think all citizens deserve heath care.

Democrats think we should provide college educations for everyone.

If Jesus were alive and able to participate in the process today I have no doubt he would be a DEMOCRAT!!!

He wasn't ashamed to debate for those ideas he believed in - he would take the democratic party leaders head on and work to change thier mandates for abortion and gay rights - not back politicians that would wage war on countries that have a different religious belief and lots of oil.

Democrats may have faults - that is true.

Republicans may have faults - believe it or not.

[CoreIssue]

Democrats are not well received here. :-)
Better said that situational ethics and lack of demand for personal responsibility are not agreed with here.
Republicans have not done much for our country in the past eight years.
Agree.

Because Clinton hide tax increases in the forms of fees, tariffs, etc does not make him a tax conservative either.

Nor did his dismantling of our Intelligence agencies and military endear him to many of us.

As a retired businessman I can tell you under Clinton his last 1.5 years in office was a time of economic decline. It it did not begin under Bush, for whom I offer no defense.
We are in a war for oil that cannot be won.
Oil is there. But so is terrorism.

Clinton is responsible for 911.
We are in a war against terrorists that the administration chooses not to wage.
It is a mess. But Clinton passed 3 times on Bin Laden being offered to him on a silver platter.

Don't sing the praises of Democrats to me. I worked in the Intelligence field during Nam and know who got us into it and who got a lot of men killed.
The Republicans can take our right to trial by jury away if they want to claim a citizen is a terrorist.
Democrats and Republicans who think illegals have right as American citizens are destroying this county. Even more so in thinking terrorists deserve Geneva Convention protections as if they are legit governments and armies. They are not.
Democrats are bad???

Democrats are evil???
Some are, some are not, as is true with Republicans and Independents.
Democrats do not support torture - for any reason.
Then they are fools.
Democrats think all citizens deserve heath care.
Welfare state was tried and it failed. Even many Democrats backed Welfare reform.

We need a way to give all health care. I agree.

I cannot get a policy because of a medical condition I have but control. So don't go there on claiming it would be different if I were impacted as well. I am.

But Socialized medicine has failed in Europe and Canada. We do not use failed models.
Democrats think we should provide college educations for everyone.
As do a number of Republicans and Independents.
If Jesus were alive and able to participate in the process today I have no doubt he would be a DEMOCRAT!!!
Then you need to study more. Christ supported capital punishment, personal responsibility, a governments right to self defense and was avidly pro-life and believed in we are human from conception with rights.

Look at the OT. Causing the death of a baby in the womb unjustly was murder.
He wasn't ashamed to debate for those ideas he believed in
Yep. Which does not make him a Democrat.
- he would take the democratic party leaders head on and work to change thier mandates for abortion and gay rights -
Agree. But those are cornerstone Democratic issues.
not back politicians that would wage war on countries that have a different religious belief and lots of oil.
But he would back such who wage war on those countries when they threaten the lives of our citizens, which they do.

Try doing some research on what what Islam actually believes regarding non Muslims.
Democrats may have faults - that is true.

Republicans may have faults - believe it or not.
Fully believe it.

Oh, by the way, I am an Independent, not a Republican because I don't like either party.

[kay-gee]

You bring up some good points bobrobert. Some bad ones too!

I dont care for the immoral stuff that certain parties cater to, but I do believe in the idea of a government that invests in the well being of its citizens. Health and education are the biggies. Money better spent than continually waging war against enemies both real and percieved.

all the best...

[bobrobert]

rofl

Life is good.

Life will go on.

I have decided on Obama and will stick with him.

Good night all.

Remember to pray for all our troops tonight.

[CoreIssue]

You bring up some good points bobrobert. Some bad ones too!

I dont care for the immoral stuff that certain parties cater to, but I do believe in the idea of a government that invests in the well being of its citizens. Health and education are the biggies. Money better spent than continually waging war against enemies both real and percieved.

all the best...
Hmmm. Still defending the failed Canadian health system? :D

Sure, health is critical. But it has too be done right and so far I know of no system that actually works 100% anywhere in the world.

[CoreIssue]

rofl

Life is good.

Life will go on.

I have decided on Obama and will stick with him.

Good night all.

Remember to pray for all our troops tonight.
Sure. Vote for whom you wish. I am the last to ever deny that. :tiphat:

I am voting for Bob Barr as a protest vote. Bet ya didn't see that one coming! :p

[bobrobert]

I was sure you couldn't vote for a repukelican.

:-)

Have a nice day all.

[InTheWind]

I`ll vote McCain, better than giving obama another vote. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Being Republican isn't the issue. His positions are the issue.

McCain is better than Obama but McCain is a disaster for the country with his pro illegals and other positions.

We loose with either one. But one far more than the other.

[InTheWind]

Yes but if obama wins because of third party votes then we have four years of hard leason to live through. :(

[CoreIssue]

Yes but if obama wins because of third party votes then we have four years of hard leason to live through. :(
I agree. But what makes you think it will be better under McCain?

The illegals, NAFTA, GATT, Free Trade and such are destroying us now. Clinton, both Bushes, Obama and McCain all back them, so where do we have any hope of the critical changes that have to happen?

[InTheWind]

From this months NRA mag. obama`s ten point plan to change the Second Amendment.

1- Ban use of firearms for home defense.

2- Pass Federal laws eliminating your right-to-carry.

3- Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.

4- Close down 90% of gun shops in America.

5- Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.

6- Increase federal taxes on guns and ammunition by 500 percent.

7- Restore voting rights for five million criminals including those who have been convicted of using a gun to commit a violent crime.

8- Expand the Clinton semi-ayto ban to include millions more firearms.

9- Mandate a government- issued licence to purchase a firearm.

10- Apoint judges to the U.S Supreme Court andFederal judiciary who share his views on the Second Admendment.

[CoreIssue]

From this months NRA mag. obama`s ten point plan to change the Second Amendment.

1- Ban use of firearms for home defense.

2- Pass Federal laws eliminating your right-to-carry.
State issues. Not Federal.
3- Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.[/QUOTE]
Been tried and found unconstitional.
4- Close down 90% of gun shops in America.[/QUOTE]
State issues, again, as long as they meet Federal regs.
5- Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.[/QUOTE]
Been tried.
6- Increase federal taxes on guns and ammunition by 500 percent.[/QUOTE]
Political death in too many States for their reps to do.
7- Restore voting rights for five million criminals including those who have been convicted of using a gun to commit a violent crime.
I don't see Congress doing that. Again political suicide.
8- Expand the Clinton semi-ayto ban to include millions more firearms.
Yea. A concern there.
9- Mandate a government- issued licence to purchase a firearm.
I do not think that would pass legal muster. And conflicts with State's rights.
10- Apoint judges to the U.S Supreme Court andFederal judiciary who share his views on the Second Admendment.
A risk, for sure. But what nominee could survive Congressional Committees taking a stance violating the Constitution?

[InTheWind]

I agree he couldn`t do many of those things, but it shows his mindset and his plan for change.

[CoreIssue]

I agree he couldn`t do many of those things, but it shows his mindset and his plan for change.
I fully 100% agree on that point. No doubt too it.

But when one is too extreme it becomes virtually impossible to get done what they want done.

Maybe stagnation would be good for a term compared to what we could get?

I am totally frustrated with all of them.

[InTheWind]

Well the way things are going we may not have to worry about it.

[CoreIssue]

Well the way things are going we may not have to worry about it.
Agree.

McCain wins with Barr getting a % that scares the Republicans. That is the ideal outcome for this mess.

[kay-gee]

And free trade is bad because.........??

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

And free trade is bad because.........??

all the best...
It isn't Fair Trade.

As long as China, France and others slap tariffs on our goods but we cannot on theirs and we are expected to have work and environmental standards and they are not, it isn't fair.

Fair is fine, but this Free isn't free at all. It is loaded dice.

[bobrobert]

:-)

Is there somewhere to get this NRA :scratch: article online???

Thanks for your time and trouble.

[InTheWind]

http://www.nraila.org/obama/

[MichaelH]

Never mind California! (Someone wrote me about California.) Does no one understand what could happen if someone who does not have the pride in their country that am sure that you and I have, finds himself in the office of the presidency? Does anyone understand that an enemy of freedom could literally betray the secrets of this nation to a foreign government such as Russia? Why would someone do this? Could it really happen as stated, and as suddenly, moreover, right out in the open, even with support? It could! Never before have we been in such a position till now. But we are. There is nothing to prevent someone who has access to all of the knowledge available to the president of the U.S.A. from betraying the secrets of the country to another nation, forcing us to bend our knees in surrender to them.
And consider: Our ability to defend ourselves would be entirely compromised. Even the military could not help. For if our top leader was unwilling to use the strongest deterrent we have at our disposal, namely the Red Button, the military would realize that retaliation would not be of any value; for the Red Button could be used against us and finalize any uprising if we thought to do so.
And why would anyone do such a thing in this country? Imagine someone who is an underdog, who by some twist of fate is supported by a group of unenlightened people who are looking for change, who do not understand the valuable freedom that we have, making it somehow to the top. Do any suppose that the same will be willing to part with that power once attained, if his or her sympathies lie with a model of government alien to our own which he prefers over ours?
Suppose that the people quickly realize the mistake they made in putting such an one into office. What would such a person do if he wanted to retain power and implement an agenda to suppress the people, and have power to himself? It would be easy for him to compromise our ability to defend ourselves in exchange for being named 'supreme leader' under the occupation of an invading army. That is why the office of president is sacred to the American way of life, and should be vehemently guarded with regard to who is voted ‘in’ there; because an enemy of the nation mistaken for a mere agent of change could pull this off. It is not impossible under the right conditions. Isn’t it strange to consider?
I recall something that was said by Nikita Kruschev when I was just a child. He said that the Soviet Union (or the communist machine), would take this nation without firing a shot! As a youth it worried me. Later in life I laughed. Now I am not laughing.

So I mean, on a different note, Pelosi, in a sound byte today, perhaps sublimely admitted her true thinking and motivation about what the bailout/rescue was about, when she said that the bailout would now help "The Jones' on 'main' street U.S.A." It is in the statement she made after the signing of the “Bailout” bill. Note that this was an outright confession designed to go over the head of most people who will not get it. It is for the key people to understand. But in her naming of the “Jones'“ she was clearly referring to the expression so well known to every American, about our "Keeping up with the Jones'." But what she was referring to was the 'enabling of incapable people’ by redistribution of wealth, to be ’promoted’ to keep up with the Jones'.
She thinks she is a good person, error number one according to Jesus! She may have had the right sentiment; however, she has the wrong way of going about addressing it, and is clueless of her error in judgment, to the point of bankruptcy, and total depravity in knowledge of the system of rewards. Well, the same could happen if people, with what they consider to be good intentions, elect someone whom they don’t recognize to be a threat to the most powerful office, of the most blessed country in the world!

Remember that "If the salt hath lost its savor, it is fit only to be trodden under the feet of men." Have we been asleep, and just now realizing the danger we are in?

[MichaelH]

Moreover, this 'bailout' situation is downright wicked. I have supported Bush through his entire presidency (with a few discomforts), but this is dismal. Why? Here's the beef: If we have a democrat House, and Senate, and on top of that we elect a democrat for president, socialism will be forced upon us with a vengence. What is to say that they will do with the money what they are claiming. It would take an honest man or woman at the helm to properly distribute the money they have now laid claim to, as per the so called agreement. But as I recall, President Johnson raided social security to pay for things that it was not set up to service, causing a lot of concern among true constitutionalists. Neither do I expect that those who deregulated the loan industry in order to rob peter to pay paul, will be honest with the coming steps. So I am upset with Bush for not realizing the possibility, should someone corrupt be elected.

[MichaelH]

The wording of this post may cause concern, but it is serious enough to elaborate upon.

If Obama is elected it will be because so many in America evidently are finally supportive, and in agreement with Rev Wright over when he ranted and raved from the pulpit saying, "Gawd, damn - America!" I mean, how can they not get it? They don't have a clue what they as Americans, really have. So, America is 'finally' listening to preaching, but the wrong kind? Cause, what a vote for Obama will net U.S., is a great big "Gawd damn Omerica," if we could emulate Rev. Wright, and as one radio commentator says, "If this happens, we will be an ObamaNation to the world." Obama is working as deceitfully as he is able in order to get away with this. Cuz, those who follow him do not notice the lies. They are truly blindly following, and fueled by Hollywood propaganda (you know, from those guys who only play make believe), and the (forgive me) stupid press.

[CoreIssue]

I agree with a lot of what you said.

One difference is I have not supported Bush. He is a One World Government believer. His denomination teaches a form of Dominionism. Hence step one is to bring the world under one government. Step two is to institute his Dominion form of government.

Yes, I voted against Kerry, thus for him.

The selection this year, McCain and Obama, is a disaster, whoever wins.

[MichaelH]

Ooooo! That's scary. Your post meter for that post is 6,667! For real, Kerry was scary. But AlGore was almost as worrysome as Obama, though not quite. And McCain said that he would have Al Gore head up the global warming commision??? Gosh I am distressed.

[CoreIssue]

It is bad.

A lot of 'Christian' religious folk out there. But is a Social Gospel, as with Obama, not the real Gospel, or Dominionism, or the Ecumenical Movement, where God is in all religions. But most are into a Situational Gospel. As in ends justify the means and it has to be convenient to be required.

My city has 128 churches. How many have solid Biblical doctrines? None I know of. Some are pretty good, but none just follow the Bible. All I know of are denominational. The largest Protestant one is into positivism and always seeking compromise, claiming that is Biblical. Several key people go there and all of them, including the pastor, are not above lying if they think it serves a just cause.

[Eutychus]

2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I hate to say this but if Obama gets control of our govt. we will have been largely to blame as the Church has been to
wimpy to be half as active as the enemy.
The race issue people , the sexual orientation people, ect., have been very active while the church is basically teaching
easy prosperity, like God is our Genie in a bottle . Just plant a seed and send some us money, and God will make your life overflow with blessings. Itching ears doctrine.
Where is the outrage, where is the backbone to stand up and fight for the moral direction of our nation. All you hear about is the money issues.
Mt 6:24 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
It will be the result of that phrase - All that has to happen for evil to prevail is for good
people to do nothing.
I believe that the revival I have been praying for will come - but at the price of very hard times. Look at Biblical history,
and you will find that we are inline for some serious chastisement. For once I would be very pleased if I were wrong, but I think the refining fire is coming and many will suffer.

[CoreIssue]

No revival until the Trib. We are in the Apostasy and it will continue until God say, "Enough."

That is a purifying fire that will consume at least 2/3 of the world unrepentant.

Then the MK will come. But even with Christ on the earth Apostasy will come again at the end.

Man is a foolish bunch.

[Eutychus]

Even if our eschatology is different; whether you are pretrib and believe we are in the apostasty or, amil or postmil and you believe we are in the church age -
we must never slack off on the great commission to get the Word out to all,
and take dominion for Christ. We can't siit and let it all go to the enemy while we
wait and see .

[CoreIssue]

Even if our eschatology is different; whether you are pretrib and believe we are in the apostasty or, amil or postmil and you believe we are in the church age -
[QUOTE]
What ever made you think Pre-Tribbers do not think we are in the Church Age?

Biggest difference is Pre-Tribbers see Israel returning as the covenant body with the Church removed in the Rapture and then a literal MK on the earth with Christ ruling from Jerusalem. Post-Mils and Amils do not see either as happening. Both see the Church ruling the earth in some form, meaning getting stronger and dominate. That we replaced Israel when the Bible teaches one Body with Two Heirs, Israel and Church.

Pre-Tribbers are extremely literal, Post-Mils far less so and Amils extremely non-literal.

we must never slack off on the great commission to get the Word out to all,
False thinking from non Pre-Tribbers that we ever believe in giving up speading the word. Just ain't so.
and take dominion for Christ. We can't siit and let it all go to the enemy while we
wait and see .
Dominion Theology, which is never taught in the Bible.

It does not matter which theology one is under when one is proclaiming salvation by grace throught faith, not of works. But I believe it does matter on issues of Sound Doctrine.

[Eutychus]

Not trying to comment on what pretrib people think and dominion is a conceptual relationship between us creation and society.
We were given Gods direction in the 10 commandments and the great commission. We should be working to promote that direction in a unified and vigorous example to the world.
I see the failure of our witness in attacking each other with issues of minor doctrine. The unbelieving community sees the church as a group who shoots their wounded and has a fragmented effort to make things happen. We are not in vain when we strive to exercise our God given dominion in so far as we have the only answer. Jesus Christ.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

[CoreIssue]

Not trying to comment on what pretrib people think and dominion is a conceptual relationship between us creation and society.
OK.
We were given Gods direction in the 10 commandments
I agree those are the outline and summary of instructions to us as individuals.
and the great commission.
Agree. The Body has many parts with different function to work on the task.
We should be working to promote that direction in a unified and vigorous example to the world.
I do not disagree. But, unfortunately, denominationalism prevents being unified. An excellent example of why Paul said don't divide in this manner.
I see the failure of our witness in attacking each other with issues of minor doctrine.
Hmmm. Works based salvation versus by grace is not minor. It is the difference between true salvation and false hope.

The Bible says we will be judged, in part, by how we treat Israel. I note those who reject Israel returning also have many unsound doctrines in other areas.

So, while I agree there are minor divisions that are foolish, there are major divisions over issues that are not minor, but critical.
The unbelieving community sees the church as a group who shoots their wounded and has a fragmented effort to make things happen. We are not in vain when we strive to exercise our God given dominion in so far as we have the only answer. Jesus Christ.
There is that word again, Dominion. It is an unbiblical term which carries a set of meanings I disagree with. Not Biblical.

So, my point here is, in example, you speak of minor divisions, meaning in my statements rejecting domionism, as being a obstacle, then turn around and use dominion as an argument to justify your position.

Is dominionism a minor or major demand for you? If it is we will not and cannot agree to move forward in a joint effort requiring observance of that doctrinal position.

We can move forward speaking of salvation by grace through faith, not of works, leaving out theological issues over Israel as regard salvation. But, unfortunately, many in Dominionism reject salvation by grace alone and do include works, which I will not and cannot embrace, since it is not Biblical, nor a minor issue.

There are not many ways to salvation.

So, let us first clarify whether we share the same meaning as to how we achieve salvation.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to giveananswer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Agree. And I have done so in this discussion as well.

My hope is in Christ's resurrection, grace and promise. Not in my works or anything such thing.

I will work to spread that hope even knowing we are in the Apostasy. People are saved one at a time, be it in droves in revival or in a salvage mission.

[Eutychus]

Well - I guess the word dominion punched a buttom I did not intend to do.
Not knowing what your objections are except that I guess you are referring to those seeking theocracy (which I am not). To clarify - Salvation is absolutely and only by grace which can never be bought with works. Christ going to the cross and His resurrection to pay for our sins and bring us salvation is the major doctrine. Like I said in another post the Bible is conclusive but not exhaustive and great men of God have had differences interprteing all kinds of things that were Biblical. I do have a difficulty with the declaration of "unbiblical" being ping ponged back and forth between people who disagree in areas of minor doctrine.
I think we are on the same page here.
I am for conforming to the teachings of Christ
in every area of life and culture. If others don't agree with me I am not for burning them at the stake or smashing their dignity as a being created in Gods image.
But the Bible does give the clear mandate for us to create our societal structure on.
Such as sex is to be only within the bonds of a marriage between a man and a woman all else is sin. Gossip is also a sin, so is cheating the other guy in business.
The people who name the name of Christ should be working to shape the laws of the land by what God has told us is right and good. God will judge or bless our nation for our actions; and I am speaking of today and our circumstances going one way or another. Gods every day judgement comes in the form of the consequences of our actions and I don't want the course of this nation left up to pagans.

[CoreIssue]

Well - I guess the word dominion punched a buttom I did not intend to do.
Words carry more meaning than many of us believe. We have to use the carefully. :D

Especially in the areas of theology. :nod:
Not knowing what your objections are except that I guess you are referring to those seeking theocracy (which I am not). To clarify - Salvation is absolutely and only by grace which can never be bought with works. Christ going to the cross and His resurrection to pay for our sins and bring us salvation is the major doctrine.
:tiphat:
Like I said in another post the Bible is conclusive but not exhaustive and great men of God have had differences interprteing all kinds of things that were Biblical. I do have a difficulty with the declaration of "unbiblical" being ping ponged back and forth between people who disagree in areas of minor doctrine.
Again, minor versus major is the key issue. Minor to one is major to another. Israel defining Church is major, in example.
I think we are on the same page here.
Seems to be.
I am for conforming to the teachings of Christ
Agree. Santification is a biggie here. Never ending process that needs mutual study and help. Not denominational rigidity.
in every area of life and culture. If others don't agree with me I am not for burning them at the stake or smashing their dignity as a being created in Gods image.
Sure.
But the Bible does give the clear mandate for us to create our societal structure on.
But through influencing change in others, not grabbing power and mandating. Then the laws and such follow suite willingly.
Such as sex is to be only within the bonds of a marriage between a man and a woman all else is sin. Gossip is also a sin, so is cheating the other guy in business.
Yep.
The people who name the name of Christ should be working to shape the laws of the land by what God has told us is right and good. God will judge or bless our nation for our actions; and I am speaking of today and our circumstances going one way or another. Gods every day judgement comes in the form of the consequences of our actions and I don't want the course of this nation left up to pagans.
Agree. Paul is the best example here.

When speaking in the Roman Baths and on the street of idols, he didn't preach the Gospel verbatim. He began where they were and led them to Christ via explanations they could grasp in their terms.

[Sacre]

All things happen for a reason. Some times God actually is in control. And Obama is doing great so far. I voted for McCain but maybe the newbie will be okay after all.

[CoreIssue]

All things happen for a reason. Some times God actually is in control. And Obama is doing great so far. I voted for McCain but maybe the newbie will be okay after all.
No, he is already a disaster.

Abortions legal again under federal funding, stimulus package a major disaster and giving terrorists constitutional protections. Disaster.

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YES OBAMA LETTING SOME ABORTION LAWS SLIP THROUGH IS BAD AND THATS WHY I VOTED FOR MCCAIN. But the state's can still abolish it. BUT:


1. Bush's stimulus and Obama's are the similar except Bush allowed the greedy people who gamble on our misfortune to get loans and Obama put a cap on them. Beautiful work really. It's also a econimical fact those speculators screw us over. And I thought christian's had the same view on oil and how it's their fault for the prices, even.

And Obama is doing something about it.

2. Do you just watch fox news all day about how some republican's thing it's 'not good' but have no proof supporting it? =p They even hesitate to answer. And they have no emotion behind their answer.

I support people who believe in themselves.

3. Closing guantanmo bay, a place of manipulating the law to harm fellow human beings?

Obama is a hero for closing it.

4. And Obama is giving muslims the rights they deserve. All muslims aren't terrorists. There's only like a few hundred terrorists in the entire middle east for hecks sakes dude. I'm tired of poor christian views stereotyping an entire people. God says to love our neighor. Did you know if you were stranded homeless in Afghanistan that you could stay with any Muslim family because they are better at not being hipocrits about their religion and have to take people in just as God would want us to? Or do you want to focus on the few bad parts of their religion that only a few of them even follow? ... I mean i know Christ is the only way but..woah.

Obama has love and gives human rights even if it's fustrating, makes a true man.

[CoreIssue]

YES OBAMA LETTING SOME ABORTION LAWS SLIP THROUGH IS BAD AND THATS WHY I VOTED FOR MCCAIN. But the state's can still abolish it.
No, they cannot. States have no control over overseas funding in those areas.
BUT:
1. Bush's stimulus and Obama's are the similar except Bush allowed the greedy people who gamble on our misfortune to get loans and Obama put a cap on them. Beautiful work really. It's also a econimical fact those speculators screw us over. And I thought christian's had the same view on oil and how it's their fault for the prices, even. Did I ever say Bush's stimulus was good? Never.
And Obama is doing something about it. Yep. Making it worse.

A little history here. The Great Depression was extended by the stimulus efforts back then. It took WWII to end it.

This stimulus makes that one look like kindergarten.
2. Do you just watch fox news all day about how some republican's thing it's 'not good' but have no proof supporting it? =p They even hesitate to answer. And they have no emotion behind their answer. Nice try. I am an Independent, not a Republican. I listen to both FOX and CNN, plus some other sources kicked in.
I support people who believe in themselves. Personal responsibility is a good thing. But by yourself not going to get you far when the government stacks the deck against you.
3. Closing guantanmo bay, a place of manipulating the law to harm fellow human beings?
Excuse me? The law they are under says they can be shot in the field. They are not US citizens nor soldiers of a government. They are terrorist combatants.

People can and do reach the point they deserve no mercy. God said kill everyone in the Promised Land, including babies, because their societies had reached that point.
Obama is a hero for closing it. Obama is a fool for closing it.
4. And Obama is giving muslims the rights they deserve. All muslims aren't terrorists. There's only like a few hundred terrorists in the entire middle east for hecks sakes dude. That is an uneducated statement. A few hundred do not dominate Iran, Afghanistan, much of Pakistan and other places.

Again, they have no legal right under the Geneva Convention or field manual.
I'm tired of poor christian views stereotyping an entire people. True liberal thinking. Learn the Muslim sects and sub schools of thought out there, what each believes and so forth.

Then you will have a better understanding of the various motivations and beliefs. I do not lump them all together. But I recognize by their beliefs some are our enemies, plain and simple.
God says to love our neighor. But it also says don't be a fool and that we don have enemies.
Did you know if you were stranded homeless in Afghanistan that you could stay with any Muslim family because they are better at not being hipocrits about their religion and have to take people in just as God would want us to? False. Some yes. Others would take you prisoner and others would kill you on the spot. Blanket liberal statements get people killed.
Or do you want to focus on the few bad parts of their religion that only a few of them even follow? ... I mean i know Christ is the only way but..woah. Like converting to Christianity gets you killed by a relative in an honor killing? Or a slip of the tongue about Mohammed can get you arrested and whipped by the government, if not put to death?

Sharia Law is a lot more than a few bad parts.
Obama has love and gives human rights even if it's fustrating, makes a true man.Yea, right.

What about justice? Those murderers in Gitmo can walk under your thinking, to kill again, as many have who were released.

I guess you don't believe in capital punishment either, even though it is Biblical.

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They are not US citizens

Need I quote the constituion? "ALL PEOPLE" it does NOT say 'all americans.'

And not all the people at guantanamo bay are guilty. And it's not right to punish them different then is fair. 'protection from cruel and unusual punishment' again is for ALL PEOPLE.

I guess I agree with you on most your post though, thanks.

[CoreIssue]

They do not fall under civil law, but the uniform code of justice. They could have been shot on the battlefield on the spot.

[Sacre]

I think we take more of them hostage then there are them actually fighting us. I guess there are some exceptions. But technicality is not equal to morality or humanity.

[CoreIssue]

I think we take more of them hostage then there are them actually fighting us. I guess there are some exceptions. But technicality is not equal to morality or humanity.
And you base this on what?

Most assuredly is moral. Murder and working to murder is morally punishable by death.

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True, but cruel and unusual punishment is not moral. And even if war is 'technically' permitted by the bible. Do you really think Jesus 'prefers' we kill people who kill people to show people that killing people is wrong? No. It's 'okay' but surely not 'preferred.' Don't forget we're talking about 1. All humans have the same God-given rights and 2. God is love. Else how could we call ourselves americans or christians!

[CoreIssue]

True, but cruel and unusual punishment is not moral. And even if war is 'technically' permitted by the bible. Do you really think Jesus 'prefers' we kill people who kill people to show people that killing people is wrong? No. It's 'okay' but surely not 'preferred.' Don't forget we're talking about 1. All humans have the same God-given rights and 2. God is love. Else how could we call ourselves americans or christians!
No technically about it. It is permitted when justified.

Capital punishment is never rescended in the Bible. God established it. Christ will kill armies at the Second Coming and order the killing of all who take the Mark.

What is preferred is repentance. You don't see it in those people, so justice is needed.

It is neither cruel or unusual. Another liberal mantra.

And interrogation of terrorists with whatever to save lives is also justified.

Murderers give up their rights, even Biblically.

God is justice. Have you not read about the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the two God slayed in the NT for lying to the Holy Spirit and Revelation?

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No technically about it. It is permitted when justified.I just think we abuse the system to often, as humans we're obviously not perfect.

And interrogation of terrorists with whatever to save lives is also justified.This is the most corrupt ideal of our time, i think.

have you not read..I've also read of promises, mercy and forgiveness. Oh; but, you can't really mention the things HE did, cuz WE are not God.

[CoreIssue]

No technically about it. It is permitted when justified.I just think we abuse the system to often, as humans we're obviously not perfect.
It isn't an abuse, it is a necessity and justice.
And interrogation of terrorists with whatever to save lives is also justified.This is the most corrupt ideal of our time, i think.
Nothing new about it. What ever gave you the idea this was a new concept?
have you not read..I've also read of promises, mercy and forgiveness. Oh; but, you can't really mention the things HE did, cuz WE are not God.
Stick with the topic. You said he didn't support the issues under discussion and I pointed out you are wrong.

It is a complete package. As with God is Love ignores God is more correctly Just.

Yes, he loves. But it isn't going to stop him from putting people in the Lake of Fire for eternity.

God will not set aside justice out of love. Never. The Cross proves that.

[Sacre]

It isn't an abuse, it is a necessity and justice.

/Agree to Disagree. And i'll reserve my ton of examples stories.

Nothing new about it. What ever gave you the idea this was a new concept?

Sadly, that's true. I will save the comments for this for another thread, also.

Stick with the topic.

I directly commented something you said -.'- And I think I made my point already.

[CoreIssue]

You have no examples of Gitmo where it was done legally.

Yea, not getting the information that has already saved hundreds or even thousands of lives was not justified. Right.

That high and 'intellectual' thinkinig led to 911, Cole and some other incidents. Were those lives worth your ideals about the rights of murderers and terrorists?

Would it have been better that information gathered that stopped other major attacks have thwarted?

These people are not soldiers. They are thugs killing there own people.

I always say when the next attack comes due to not getting the information and people die, justice is that those who blocked it be at ground zero.