tough questions, wheres the proof...

[a.baker]

This is a calling out for some support,advice and encouragement desperately needed from your sis.

As some of you know my husband believes there is a god but he does not believe in Jesus. We have conversations and he asks questions. I give answers and he says yeah, but see, this and that. So I will ask some of these questions to you guys. I will only float these by my husband if I feel they won't contribute to his unproving point.

First off I tell him there is no problem in questioning. That we should question and that is how we find more proof of why Jesus is it. So I don't want to tell my husband that Jesus is it because Hes it. My husband does not except that. So I try to help him understand or better see God but yet I tell him it does boil down to faith. And well my husband has a huge problem with faith.

(A little bit about my husband) He has great faith in me because he knows me well and has first hand seen what I am about. He says all the other religions including Christianity have blind faith because they all think "they know" (this is when I come into discussion about the HS; this does not fly with "proof" to him). He says since God has never come to him personally and said this and that and follow me, he says there isn't any more proof to Christianity than any other religion.

(One moment I have to submit this and come back a little later with more questions; I have something to do real quick; much more to add...) :nod:

[a.baker]

O.k. a discussion we had today. The discussion, weird I know, but came about because he was on the internet researching about Scientology from a site he visits and someone there was into that. Of course we both agree that this religion is weird and a cult. But of course it turned into a conversation about Christianity. Here we go...

I try to be real with my husband with my confusion on things and one of them is the confusion with the OT. I see the same God but yet much different. The OT talks much more about Gods anger and wrath; rules, laws and things to do if this or that happens i.e. with a bull that gores people. So of course the conversation went on into His judgment and His justice.

So he says he wonders why bad things happen to good people. I say," well a lot of times God will use that to bring others to Him or maybe the bad thing that happened was someones choice of freewill. I than point out the fact how God can turn anything into His advantage. I say how God is always calling the lost and He will use things to try to grab our attention and we choose to listen or not. A lot of people that find God, believe it or not, by being angry with Him first. That anger towards God consciously even though with their denial of Him existing shows that one knows He does exist . Better to of lost than to not known at all. "So than the conversation went on into freewill but yet God knowing all.

I say," yes He knows what it will be like when the time comes but yet we choose by our freewill how we will get there. For example He knows there will be numerous murderers. But we as individuals choose by freewill if we murder or not. We choose what side to be on."

( this is important because my husband gets angry thinking that hes a gods puppet) So my husband says," if we have freewill and God already knows how it's going to end than what is the importance of life. Theres this war or whatever going on and I don't want to be on either side. Can't they all just leave me alone and just let me become dirt when I die and thats it. I am a good person and do nothing to anybody."

So I say "Well you would go to the dark side of things because you have been handed the information about Jesus and rejected it even though you are a good person. ( sorry but while someone may be offended by that comment or hurt, I cannot dance around the truth of the bible either though. I try to make it easy and light but the truth is still there). But a question I struggle with, is a person who lives out in the middle of nowhere, in a tribe and worships a god but yet never seen a bible or heard of Jesus than what happens to them."

He says "exactly".

And I say "but you have been handed the info. and reject it."

He says "I will never be a Christian there is no proof. I don't believe in faith I cannot see." (he wants to literally see or hear).

O.k. aside from this conversation here let me tell you my husband has been handed all sorts of scientific proof that Jesus did exist. So my husbands reaction to that; o.k. well who is to say He is the One? Who is to say He has yet to come.

Now my husband knows all the scripture that lines up from the OT to the birth of Jesus and throughout His life. His reaction to that...

Whose to say if you picked the right book? What if you didn't.

So around the circle goes again; I can't ask what if, because I just know, because of the proof of the HS.

He says "o.k. but all the other religions claim the same thing but it is not called the HS."

So I say " O.k. just look at all the other religions and weigh things out with your conscious. Not with your feelings but with your conscience."

He says he did that and his conscience tells him that he cannot settle at anything accept that there is a god out there.

I go in to than talk about how even though I have much faith and I know Him well and I feel the HS that yet God is still a mystery to me with some things. My husband doesn't like this. He thinks no matter what that God is playing games with him. I tell him that since we are only human, we cannot comprehend the all knowing and so for our sake God does keep some stuff from us. I say hey look there are some things in the bible that we still don't understand. We cannot even comprehend some of the info. God has given us.

So around and around it goes and we see that and we both decide to drop the conversation until next time it happens to pop up. Neither of us bring it up it just happens to get into talk about Christianity. Sorry about the he said she said but it is so frustrating and I try so hard to be open and graceful and respectful and think before I speak and really consider what he is saying. I listen.

One more thing, my husband told me to hop on here at CTZ to see what people here think of his questions. If there are really any proof answers according to scripture.

So what exactly does it say about God knowing all (one piece of scripture I wanted to research on).

Something else I struggle with is people will say "In Gods time He will bring your husband to Him". What?! That does not make sense because that puts a Calvinist view on things!!! God is always calling and always searching for His lost sheep. He doesn't choose a time and let you just be lost and wander until it comes to His convince. Now thats a "puppet show". God always calling and knocking on ones door, shows no one is blameless on judgment day. We have always accepted or rejected, black or white, light or darkness, chose right or left. There is never a but well.. with Him.

My MIL said before when I just believed in Jesus but didn't know Him "You are going to be the one that brings him back to Jesus". HUH?!! Many others have said that too. Ummm I don't know about that, I am just his wife and being just a wife is not enough for some no matter what is brought to the table. (sorry I am frustrated and I hide it so it doesn't show to him, it is leaking out here but I know you understand... :hug: )

[CoreIssue]

Well, let me kick in here there is a big difference in proofs. Just a couple for now.

The prophecies of the OT about the coming of Christ by statistical analysis have been found to be beyond the possibility of chance. That is a huge proof.

The prophecies of Daniel also defy chance. As in Daniel wrote them under Babylon but prophecied Greece followed by Rome which would split into two parts and then into ten and later come back together. The EU is those Ten. Overlay a map of Rome when it fell apart over the EU and it matches.

Those defy chance.

[a.baker]

Yes a pastor once said that if you took half dollars, stacked up on top of each other and each stack was 2 ft. deep it would cover the state of Texas. Now only one of those half dollars could line up to be Jesus. That would be the probability.

How can I get Him to listen to it as possible proof other than him writing it off as some other book?

Hmm could I maybe bring up doing some scripture finding with him to his questions if I traded some of my time him with something I am not interested in? Would that be pushing it? A trade for a trade hmmm...

Thank x Core :) I will start that reading tonight. Maybe I should read it and keep it soaked in for our next conversation that pops up.

Whats seems best and less pushy to you?

[CoreIssue]

I try to be real with my husband with my confusion on things and one of them is the confusion with the OT. I see the same God but yet much different. The OT talks much more about Gods anger and wrath; rules, laws and things to do if this or that happens i.e. with a bull that gores people. So of course the conversation went on into His judgment and His justice.
Let me note here much of law today is based on those Mosaic Principles. They were new concepts then but not in the NT. So why should they be repeated?

Further, they were a chosen nation/Tribe that God set up to be a beacon to the world. So not only personal guidance was established but so was government and judicial.

So he says he wonders why bad things happen to good people. I say," well a lot of times God will use that to bring others to Him or maybe the bad thing that happened was someones choice of freewill. I than point out the fact how God can turn anything into His advantage. I say how God is always calling the lost and He will use things to try to grab our attention and we choose to listen or not. A lot of people that find God, believe it or not, by being angry with Him first. That anger towards God consciously even though with their denial of Him existing shows that one knows He does exist . Better to of lost than to not known at all. "So than the conversation went on into freewill but yet God knowing all.

I add 'good people?' How does he find anyone good and not constrantly messing up? How could anyone in this world ever please a God who does nothing wrong?

I say," yes He knows what it will be like when the time comes but yet we choose by our freewill how we will get there. For example He knows there will be numerous murderers. But we as individuals choose by freewill if we murder or not. We choose what side to be on."

We don't choose which side we are on, in as if we can choose to be saint or sinner. We are born sinners and cannot simply 'choose' to be saints.
( this is important because my husband gets angry thinking that hes a gods puppet)
Not puppets. But we are faced with the reality God sets the rules and we choose to be with or against him. That is pride speaking.
So my husband says," if we have freewill and God already knows how it's going to end than what is the importance of life.
Because until one commits the crime they cannot do the time. Or be saved until they actually repent.
Theres this war or whatever going on and I don't want to be on either side.
There is no middle option. Shades of gray do not exist.

Can't they all just leave me alone and just let me become dirt when I die and thats it. I am a good person and do nothing to anybody."

Really? He needs to look over his life and really evaluate it if he is thinking that. He will find he has and does do things to people. We all do.

Plus what he wants does not change reality. He needs to deal with what will be.

So I say "Well you would go to the dark side of things because you have been handed the information about Jesus and rejected it even though you are a good person. ( sorry but while someone may be offended by that comment or hurt, I cannot dance around the truth of the bible either though. I try to make it easy and light but the truth is still there). But a question I struggle with, is a person who lives out in the middle of nowhere, in a tribe and worships a god but yet never seen a bible or heard of Jesus than what happens to them."

He says "exactly".

No one lives in the dark about God. God gave us all the law of conscience at birth. And as Romans says we will be judged by how we handle that law if we don't have anything but that law.

He is being bother by that law of conscience as evidenced by his frustration.

And I say "but you have been handed the info. and reject it."

He says "I will never be a Christian there is no proof. I don't believe in faith I cannot see." (he wants to literally see or hear).

Then test history, statistic and other analysis of the Bible. Proof is there.

O.k. aside from this conversation here let me tell you my husband has been handed all sorts of scientific proof that Jesus did exist. So my husbands reaction to that; o.k. well who is to say He is the One? Who is to say He has yet to come.

Bible set dates for his coming prophetically. As in the 70 Weeks of Daniel. There is no yet to come possible.

Now my husband knows all the scripture that lines up from the OT to the birth of Jesus and throughout His life. His reaction to that...

Whose to say if you picked the right book? What if you didn't.

Excuses. No other books from any other religion can withstand such challenges.

So around the circle goes again; I can't ask what if, because I just know, because of the proof of the HS.

He says "o.k. but all the other religions claim the same thing but it is not called the HS."

So I say " O.k. just look at all the other religions and weigh things out with your conscious. Not with your feelings but with your conscience."

He says he did that and his conscience tells him that he cannot settle at anything accept that there is a god out there.

Test it. He has not sit down with the probabilities, unique proven historical facts and the rest and actually tested it.

I go in to than talk about how even though I have much faith and I know Him well and I feel the HS that yet God is still a mystery to me with some things. My husband doesn't like this. He thinks no matter what that God is playing games with him. I tell him that since we are only human, we cannot comprehend the all knowing and so for our sake God does keep some stuff from us. I say hey look there are some things in the bible that we still don't understand. We cannot even comprehend some of the info. God has given us.

So around and around it goes and we see that and we both decide to drop the conversation until next time it happens to pop up. Neither of us bring it up it just happens to get into talk about Christianity. Sorry about the he said she said but it is so frustrating and I try so hard to be open and graceful and respectful and think before I speak and really consider what he is saying. I listen.

Less philosophy and more testing is what he needs to do.

One more thing, my husband told me to hop on here at CTZ to see what people here think of his questions. If there are really any proof answers according to scripture.

So what exactly does it say about God knowing all (one piece of scripture I wanted to research on).

Some quick hits.
http://www.biblestudyguide.org/topical/god-omniscience.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080119154525AA8Ypz1

Something else I struggle with is people will say "In Gods time He will bring your husband to Him". What?! That does not make sense because that puts a Calvinist view on things!!! God is always calling and always searching for His lost sheep. He doesn't choose a time and let you just be lost and wander until it comes to His convince. Now thats a "puppet show". God always calling and knocking on ones door, shows no one is blameless on judgment day. We have always accepted or rejected, black or white, light or darkness, chose right or left. There is never a but well.. with Him.

Yep. That is a wishful statement that may or may not come true.
My MIL said before when I just believed in Jesus but didn't know Him "You are going to be the one that brings him back to Jesus". HUH?!! Many others have said that too. Ummm I don't know about that, I am just his wife and being just a wife is not enough for some no matter what is brought to the table. (sorry I am frustrated and I hide it so it doesn't show to him, it is leaking out here but I know you understand... :hug: )
The old just believe statement. No, often not enough and it may be someone else or no one who succeeds. More like an effort over time by many.

[CoreIssue]

Sorry, time for bed. Will continue later. :hug:

[a.baker]

What do you mean by we don't choose? Yes we are all born into sin but while we live, we do choose God or Satan. Yes we all choose that is freewill. It is said in the bible that those who do not follow God do live in the dark and those that follow live or see the light. If we all live in the dark and there is wishful thinking, than that throws any proof out the window.

[a.baker]

Why do me and my husband keep having these conversations? I do not have the answers but he will only listen to me, maybe because I am his wife. I am way to new to God to give details. I cannot answer his questions about algebra if I am still trying to learn how to add and subtract so to speak. Damn me to hell if my unknowing turns a lost person even furtherer from God; yes that is possible. I don't want these conversations to happen but they do.

I have just finished the NT a couple of months ago and I try to read the OT but when I do I find God being angry and it makes it really hard to read. It raises questions that are unpleasant to myself and makes me angry. I have prayed so much about my read to the OT and when I do I find myself asking God why and soulfully weeping. Whats going on?! I want to learn more but I cannot handle the OT for many parts, not all of it but much.

I find these conversations with my husband drives something within me I cannot explain. It is like I want them but cannot handle them. This is not my place; this is for someone else.

[a.baker]

Sorry but that comment I made about myself damn me to hell just makes these tears pour out.... please help...:sob:

[John Beckett]

`

It's 12:23 AM here, so I will have to reply
tomorrow. But hang in there, you're
doing fine, and just keep praying
that the Lord will somehow Use you
to bring your husband to the Kingdom,
and i will pray along with you. And
my wife says she will pray, as well.

Good night, dear Sis. You're definitely
a diamond among the rough.

:hug:

John



`

[CoreIssue]

What do you mean by we don't choose? Yes we are all born into sin but while we live, we do choose God or Satan. Yes we all choose that is freewill. It is said in the bible that those who do not follow God do live in the dark and those that follow live or see the light. If we all live in the dark and there is wishful thinking, than that throws any proof out the window.
His position is that we are neutral and then choose which side we are going to be on. That is false and gives the false option of remaining neutral. There is no such thing as a neutral position.

We begin on the side against and have to choose to repent to move over to God's side.

[CoreIssue]

In the OT there was no blood, only distant hope, so people lived under condemnation.

Blood came in the NT and now no one has to live under condemnation.

More knowledge now, born-again, etc. is a whole different reality than less knowledge, sinful spirit etc.

The OT people constantly were rebelling and failing.

[a.baker]

Thank x John :hug:
Core with the OT maybe you just landed it with my struggle with it. It seems the people didn't have enough info. to be condemned. It is like they had an idea but yet didn't know but yet they were blamed. It seems the higher power i.e. like a king and such knew and everyone just followed with what the king would say. Did the people of the OT really know God?

I am reading Daniel. I am at chapter 7. So far I am rereading what I have already read like 4 mths. ago but I want to freshen up on it and I am not sure if I ever finished it. Not a long book by any means. But what I don't understand is that these dreams seemed to have taken place for these 2 kings at that time of there rule. I don't see yet any NT future proof to show my husband to help him see Jesus. I will finish it today and see what else it says.

Questions I have about it, is why were both the first king and than his son who later was king was considered so high up? Neither king seemed to be justified in their reactions to things and so many times went against God. Why did Daniel accept a position and gifts for his translation of the dreams from the first king but when it came to th second he would not accept the purple robe or the gold around his neck? He seemed to accept the bigger gift from the first and would not accept the lesser gift from the second. Also when Daniel talked to these kings why would he refer to them as being in such a high position. They were, but Daniel would say to the king "you are the king of all kings and ruler of all the land and animals". That would make God jealous or angry if someone said that to another wouldn't it?

I would die before those words ever uttered my mouth to someone other than God.

[a.baker]

Daniel 7 Was this dream of Daniels also about the end of times?
Daniel 8:17 Why does the angel Gabriel refer to Daniel as "Son of Man"?
Daniel 8:26 "but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future".
Seal up the vision strikes me. Was this vision not meant to be known? Was it supposed to be part of the seals that are opened up later in Revelations? Seal it up, it is bothersome to me.
Daniel 9:10 Whats is the "laws"; 10 commandments?
Daniel 9:11 Law of Moses; hmmm 10 commandments? Why if Moses only delivered the laws; why were they referred to as the Law of Moses? Is it not the Law of God? Something else that bothers me. These are Gods laws not Moses's laws.
Daniel 9:25 What is the sixty-two 'sevens'?


Thank x for your time :nod:

[CoreIssue]

God judges according to the knowledge and revelation we have. And that never falls below the level of Law of Conscience, which is enough to bring us to God.

We know he is there and we are drawn to him. We must resist it to not find him. Seek him and he will guide us to him.

In the OT they had Conscience, the Holy Spirit, angels and some knowledge. No, they did not having as much as we do now and God didn't expect them to.

Noah didn't ask who are you when God spoke. He knew and obeyed. God called him a righteous man before he spoke to him.

When God called forth Abram it was because he was already a righteous believer in God. He didn't have any scriptures or other such thing, although there was still knowledge around from the days of Noah and Babel, in example.

So it isn't true they didn't have enough to find God or be accountable.

Missionaries going into Africa reported on finding tribes who had people who would not workship the local gods. When they preached these people recognized God as the god they had believed in, but now could know better.

God will bring everyone who would have him to him, regardless of circumstance. Man is never purely on his own.

[CoreIssue]

I am reading Daniel. I am at chapter 7. So far I am rereading what I have already read like 4 mths. ago but I want to freshen up on it and I am not sure if I ever finished it. Not a long book by any means. But what I don't understand is that these dreams seemed to have taken place for these 2 kings at that time of there rule. I don't see yet any NT future proof to show my husband to help him see Jesus. I will finish it today and see what else it says.
It isn't about Jesus in Daniel in that area. It is about the future course of Israel and Mystery Babylon.

In those verses your husband can find prophesied history to check against history to see those kings and nations actually did come about exactly as prophesied.
Questions I have about it, is why were both the first king and than his son who later was king was considered so high up? Neither king seemed to be justified in their reactions to things and so many times went against God.
Because they were the lineage of Mystery Babylon that would end with the AC kingdom. This ties in with the First Beast of John.
Why did Daniel accept a position and gifts for his translation of the dreams from the first king but when it came to th second he would not accept the purple robe or the gold around his neck? He seemed to accept the bigger gift from the first and would not accept the lesser gift from the second.
Because one required him to violate his God and beliefs but the other didn't.

Also when Daniel talked to these kings why would he refer to them as being in such a high position. They were, but Daniel would say to the king "you are the king of all kings and ruler of all the land and animals". That would make God jealous or angry if someone said that to another wouldn't it?

They did rule kings, lands and animals. They were recognized by God in those roles. Daniel recognized their earthly positions.

But God was their king whether then liked it or not.
I would die before those words ever uttered my mouth to someone other than God.
One has to distinquish between earthly and heavenly roles. We should have no problem acknowledging earthly rights and positions. We do have earthly rules with God recognized powers over us.
Daniel 7 Was this dream of Daniels also about the end of times?
Daniel 8:17 Why does the angel Gabriel refer to Daniel as "Son of Man"?
Adam means man. So Son of Adam is equally true.

Daniel 8:26 "but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future".
Seal up the vision strikes me. Was this vision not meant to be known? Was it supposed to be part of the seals that are opened up later in Revelations? Seal it up, it is bothersome to me.

Revelation finishes the Church Age and moves into the 70th Week of Daniel where Israel is restored.

Just think of the field day Jewish cults could have had with the knowledge of the Trib in their times.
Daniel 9:10 Whats is the "laws"; 10 commandments?
10 plus the Mosaic Law.

Daniel 9:11 Law of Moses; hmmm 10 commandments? Why if Moses only delivered the laws; why were they referred to as the Law of Moses? Is it not the Law of God? Something else that bothers me. These are Gods laws not Moses's laws.

Because the Mosaic Law had three parts. One was for people in general and carries over to today. One was governmental law only for OT Israel but a guide for today as well. One was ceremonial law which was complete in Christ and only for the Jewish Temple, then, not all of Man.
Daniel 9:25 What is the sixty-two 'sevens'?

The Law of Moses was part of the Mosaic Covenant upon Israel.

[kay-gee]

The story of Jesus was not one concocted by one person. The church was spread like wild-fire in the first century by 12 men who retelling of the account of Jesus was in complete unison. about 90% of these 12 men were martyred for the faith. they died, not for what they believed, but rather for what they SAW. How many people do you know would willingly die for a lie. A fable that they had apparently made up! Out of those men, you would think that someone would crack and say OK this is all a story we made up. How would these men face beatings, floggings, ridicule and gory death's if they had not seen and experienced Jesus' power first hand, not to mention empowering by the Spirit, which Jesus said He would send to them. How is it that some one like Saul of Tarsus, was a brutal persecutor of the Lord's church, then in a supernatural experience (of his own telling) turned about to become one of the greatest Evangelists of all time a mighty pillar of the church? People are known to change, but in the course of one day?
Who else lived out the prophesies spoken about Him a millennium and a half before He arrived on Earth. Lived them out in uncanny detail. Read Isaiah 53. How could someone collaborate that? Do you suppose Roman soldiers studied Isaiah, then used it as a blueprint for crucifixion?
The proof for Jesus is over-whelming. It has been my experience, that people who reject Him, don't do so on lack of evidence (though they may claim), but rather on lack of conviction. A fear of what it may cost them to respond to the Call of Christ.

all the best...

[a.baker]

:hug: Thank x Kaygee!!!

[Willy]

Hi Amanda,

Both you and your husband have been in my prayers for a while now, along with all at CTZ.
I gave a listen to bloodletting, and it is a reasonably angry kind of music. (had this vision of an aggressive Gothic Aerobics class) :eek:
Some of the music is an honest response to a world where if you are not saved, it can be very disheartening. Even in the visible churches there is a lot of corruption. So, ... the recipe is still ... look to the Lord Jesus, not to a church or a person claiming to represent Him.

That is still His Challenge, Come unto Me!! Learn of Me!!
Also if you notice, He fought mostly with the religious leaders of the day, referring to them as a generation of serpents and vipers.
I'm not so sure it would be any different today.
Psalm 22 for the prophecy of the Cross.:pray:

God Bless you!!

[kay-gee]

But willy, remember, the church is His body, when a person submits to the calling of Christ, He is ADDED TO His Church. (Acts 2:47) It is a package deal. I hear so many people claiming to love Jesus and in the same breath, dissing the very institution that He purchased with His shed blood! It is important to know the "whole" counsel of God.

By the way...what on Earth is bloodletting?

all the best...

[a.baker]

Bloodletting was the band my husband was in for a little over 10 years. He has been out of it for about 3 or 4 mths. now.

Thank you so much for listening to it Willy! :D :hug: I feel that because you have than maybe you can see the extent of the issue.

My husband loves a band called Tool and that band does mostly nothing but talk about Jesus as not being the One and those words are very very hurtful! So many hurtful words aimed right at blah blah Christ this and that. I am not going to repeat the bands words it is just too hurtful (the words of Tool not my husbands old band). Another band has this one song out and it is so very very awful those words about Him. That band is called a Perfect Circle. I don't suggest anyone listens to these songs I just want to put it out there for onlookers.

Yes in the beginning and end look to the Lord but His family helps out in many ways with coping and encouragement. It is also very joyful to find someone else to share your love for the Lord with; whether it is a friend or the congregation at church; just with someone that also knows Him well.

[a.baker]

Also if anyone was wondering what the word bloodletting means (which I am sure most of you do). Way back in the day it was a thing they did to "drain sickness". People used to think that if you cut yourself (I am not sure where, maybe it was your arm) and let the blood drain out than the sickness would drain out with the blood.

Crazy weird grouse history of the world and putting that in a name in a band is kinda sickening....

But for my husbands defense here no one in the band is a goth black clothing type person. If you saw any of the members or my husband walking down the street they all look average and normal. A couple of them even go to college or own their own businesses and are well to do.

[Jessie]

O.k. a discussion we had today. The discussion, weird I know, but came about because he was on the internet researching about Scientology from a site he visits and someone there was into that. Of course we both agree that this religion is weird and a cult. But of course it turned into a conversation about Christianity. Here we go...

I try to be real with my husband with my confusion on things and one of them is the confusion with the OT. I see the same God but yet much different. The OT talks much more about Gods anger and wrath; rules, laws and things to do if this or that happens i.e. with a bull that gores people. So of course the conversation went on into His judgment and His justice.

So he says he wonders why bad things happen to good people. I say," well a lot of times God will use that to bring others to Him or maybe the bad thing that happened was someones choice of freewill. I than point out the fact how God can turn anything into His advantage. I say how God is always calling the lost and He will use things to try to grab our attention and we choose to listen or not. A lot of people that find God, believe it or not, by being angry with Him first. That anger towards God consciously even though with their denial of Him existing shows that one knows He does exist . Better to of lost than to not known at all. "So than the conversation went on into freewill but yet God knowing all.

I say," yes He knows what it will be like when the time comes but yet we choose by our freewill how we will get there. For example He knows there will be numerous murderers. But we as individuals choose by freewill if we murder or not. We choose what side to be on."

( this is important because my husband gets angry thinking that hes a gods puppet) So my husband says," if we have freewill and God already knows how it's going to end than what is the importance of life. Theres this war or whatever going on and I don't want to be on either side. Can't they all just leave me alone and just let me become dirt when I die and thats it. I am a good person and do nothing to anybody."

So I say "Well you would go to the dark side of things because you have been handed the information about Jesus and rejected it even though you are a good person. ( sorry but while someone may be offended by that comment or hurt, I cannot dance around the truth of the bible either though. I try to make it easy and light but the truth is still there). But a question I struggle with, is a person who lives out in the middle of nowhere, in a tribe and worships a god but yet never seen a bible or heard of Jesus than what happens to them."

He says "exactly".

And I say "but you have been handed the info. and reject it."

He says "I will never be a Christian there is no proof. I don't believe in faith I cannot see." (he wants to literally see or hear).

O.k. aside from this conversation here let me tell you my husband has been handed all sorts of scientific proof that Jesus did exist. So my husbands reaction to that; o.k. well who is to say He is the One? Who is to say He has yet to come.

Now my husband knows all the scripture that lines up from the OT to the birth of Jesus and throughout His life. His reaction to that...

Whose to say if you picked the right book? What if you didn't.

So around the circle goes again; I can't ask what if, because I just know, because of the proof of the HS.

He says "o.k. but all the other religions claim the same thing but it is not called the HS."

So I say " O.k. just look at all the other religions and weigh things out with your conscious. Not with your feelings but with your conscience."

He says he did that and his conscience tells him that he cannot settle at anything accept that there is a god out there.

I go in to than talk about how even though I have much faith and I know Him well and I feel the HS that yet God is still a mystery to me with some things. My husband doesn't like this. He thinks no matter what that God is playing games with him. I tell him that since we are only human, we cannot comprehend the all knowing and so for our sake God does keep some stuff from us. I say hey look there are some things in the bible that we still don't understand. We cannot even comprehend some of the info. God has given us.

So around and around it goes and we see that and we both decide to drop the conversation until next time it happens to pop up. Neither of us bring it up it just happens to get into talk about Christianity. Sorry about the he said she said but it is so frustrating and I try so hard to be open and graceful and respectful and think before I speak and really consider what he is saying. I listen.

One more thing, my husband told me to hop on here at CTZ to see what people here think of his questions. If there are really any proof answers according to scripture.

So what exactly does it say about God knowing all (one piece of scripture I wanted to research on).

Something else I struggle with is people will say "In Gods time He will bring your husband to Him". What?! That does not make sense because that puts a Calvinist view on things!!! God is always calling and always searching for His lost sheep. He doesn't choose a time and let you just be lost and wander until it comes to His convince. Now thats a "puppet show". God always calling and knocking on ones door, shows no one is blameless on judgment day. We have always accepted or rejected, black or white, light or darkness, chose right or left. There is never a but well.. with Him.

My MIL said before when I just believed in Jesus but didn't know Him "You are going to be the one that brings him back to Jesus". HUH?!! Many others have said that too. Ummm I don't know about that, I am just his wife and being just a wife is not enough for some no matter what is brought to the table. (sorry I am frustrated and I hide it so it doesn't show to him, it is leaking out here but I know you understand... :hug: )


a good start is dave hunts books.

you know whats really funny? (not the ha ha kind either)
the other religions make one a "puppet" not christianity.

we do NOT have a blind faith. we do not stick our heads in the sand...
we do not manipulate things and people by metaphysical, or jumping thru hoops in our minds like postive thinking ect.

why do things happen to good people? well, is anyone truly good?
I'm sure he'd have to answer no.
( which proves that we are all sinners and none good so we are in need of a savior in front of a Holy God)

I'm sure he understands how a muscle grows in strength, so we do in learning character, and inner strength.

we live in a fallen world plenty of eviedence for that everywhere!
and proof that there is a devil.

you can set a light before your dh.
only God can change him.
it will be in His time not yours or ours. when God works he works slowly.
I think we want it all right now, but I've learned life and the Lord for the most part just does'nt work that way.

God is working on his heart and will continue too!
ultimatly its your dh's choice.

you can tell your mil that its the Lord who will bring him to Him, not you all you do is be what God has told you to be. dont let them pressure you.

[Willy]

Yes in the beginning and end look to the Lord but His family helps out in many ways with coping and encouragement. It is also very joyful to find someone else to share your love for the Lord with; whether it is a friend or the congregation at church; just with someone that also knows Him well.

Just concerned that Chris doesn't get lost sitting in a pew somewhere where the gospel isn't preached. You had expressed some concerns about the church you attended. I may have not understood completely what you said. Sorry if that is the case.

The unsaved tend to judge The Lord Jesus by the imperfect people that represent Him. (I did)

I got saved a little like John Newton (Amazing grace). It was just me, (a guilty sinner) alone one night with a Holy God. In grace He led me to the Cross and I new that I was in part responsible. I was given a choice. It wasn't a hard choice for me. As soon as I saw the reality of it, (of what it cost) I knew that it was more noble than anything man could devise. I verbally confessed my need (in prayer) and accepted God's unspeakable gift. I threw out almost everything I owned that connected me to the "world" and went out and bought a Strong's concordance. That was in 1976. I went back to a few of the churches I had attended and found them totally devoid of the new life I had found in Christ Jesus.

Amanda, when I read your posts, they remind me of my thoughts and experiences trying to reconcile what I new to be true with what I was seeing in these churches.

Fellowship with believers is important. Finding the right Fellowship is only possible if you are saved. Saved .... added the the Church that is His Body, and then finding a local Fellowship that faithfully represents God's Word.

Anyway, I'm still praying for the both of you as well as the rest here at CTZ.:nod: ... and your new home!!

Willy

[f8fbearcat777]

I am willing to provide my opinion from only a Doctrinal Prospective - because I am on-line sparingly i.e. only via wireless and only when my truck driving schedules allow me to do so - the way I intend to respond to any skeptic's views will allow others to join-in i.e. I will title a Doctrine and make only pertinent points - others can expand "the points" into teachable rhetoric - not anything I do (such as this) will be an exhaustive effort i.e. others should add more points - the first two doctrines (not necessary in applicable order) will be "EVOLUTION VS CREATIONISM (i.e. Evolutionism attacked Christianity, in the early '20s) and "FOR THE KINGDOM'S SAKE." All professing Christians (using this forum) are invited to participate that we-all can learn and for the greater-good re her husband's skeptic position.

EVOLUTIONISM VS CREATIONISM

. the discovery of DNA - in the '50s provided Biblical-Science inconvertible evidence that Athestic-Evolution never happend

. DNA is Divine Creationism Mandating "all things" after their own kind

. the organic materials that make up this Earth did not make themselves out of nothing

. before this Earth existed - before Adam Was Made - The Futuristic Advent of The New Jerusalem Was Divinely Purposed


FOR THE KINGDOM'S SAKE

. before his Damascus Road Conversion (he was not on The Roman Road of man's plan of salvation) and after his Damascus Road Conversion - the apostle Paul faced death many times - his life Was Divinely Hedged against Death but for one reason i.e. he had Kingdom Work to do (he could never know this percisely) i.e. Work that will have profound effect upon The Kingdom

. when all of his Kingdom Work was completed (Paul could not, of himself) know this - this hedge Was Removed and soon after he became a martyr

. when there is "no Divine Hedge" (re individuality) against Death then - we-all are subject to Death re: choices we make; choices others make; biological disease and on and on

. we must be allowed to make "out choices" for "we-all" must give "the account" of these choices THAT DAY i.e. our records are continually being Recorded in HIGH HEAVEN i.e. HE IS NOT A Puppeteer

. however - HE Intervenes in the affairs of men and nations ONLY for The Kingdom's Sake

. satan is continually trying to overthrow The Kingdom - Kingdom Work has a direct effect against swatan's treachry

[CoreIssue]

Sorry, bear, but just slapping up doctrinal positions does not work here.

If you have had time to prepare copy and paste material you have time to add proofs to it.

Please do. We don't allow preaching, which is what you are doing.

Please revise your materials to include some. Has to be.

[f8fbearcat777]

THE FOLLOWING IS COREISSUE’S RESPONSE TO MY RECENT POSTING RE “THE LAST” GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD

Dear f8fbearcat777,

CoreIssue has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The pit (question) - in the MHz forum of CTZ Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2473&goto=newpost (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2473&goto=newpost)

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Please give Biblical backing to defend those positions. Start with showing where there is any other stated Tribuation Period as comparable to the events of the 7 year Trib in the Bible.

The Pit exists now. Angels are imprisoned in it now. Hell exists in it now.

Your throwing out a lot of theory that cannot be Biblically supported. We require more than statements. Please provide them.
***************

There may also be other replies, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

All the best,
CTZ Forums

God gave us logic and reason. Cults try to make all truth come strictly by revelation from the Holy Spirit, which is Gnosis and rejected since its conception.

We are commanded to study to show ourselves approved. We are quoted history, prophecy and sound reasoning throughout the Bible. We are told to test the new against the old for continuity and conformity.

So literal proof upon which to base our faith is very Biblical. Christianity is a knowing religion. We have provable reasons to justify our leap of faith or we are no different than any other religion or cult.


Sorry, bear, but just slapping up doctrinal positions does not work here.

If you have had time to prepare copy and paste material you have time to add proofs to it.

Please do. We don't allow preaching, which is what you are doing.

Please revise your materials to include some. Has to be.



F8fbearcat777’s response

First of all – because my “online time” is very limited re my work as an over-the-road trucker, getting on-line only re wireless, when its available and-then when – trucking schedules so-all. Second – it is consequently much-easier for me to pre-prepare material. Third – I’m used “to dealing” with folk who-have a working memory of Biblical History i.e. why I do not quote Scripture. Fourth – of course nothing is more important than The Culture Itself as any deviation from it is cultic – this is why “we” have Biblical Mandate to “.. come and reason together ..” and to “.. test the spirits ..” i.e. cults will not allow evidence contrary to their-own interpretation to be introduced i.e. by its very instincts – cults will refuse “to Obey” The Biblical Mandate to consider contrary evidences!!! Just consider “the Catholics” taking their interpretations to “the Mormons” – the Jehovah Witnesses taking theirs to “the Baptists” and on and on and on i.e. Denominationalism (which includes non-Denominationalism is “Cultural Apartheid” which so-fractures “The Culture” into “multitudes and multitudes and multitudes (and on and on) of Organized (501c3 extensions of Federal Government Local Churches) any one segregated, from all the others by The Iniquity of Doctrinal Diversity (which is the same Words being perverted into all these different interpretations by the “iron will – clinched fists” of Organized Religion to-have These Words interpreted according to their own pre-determined orientation – all of which is False Religion which is Paganism which disenfranchises The National Congregation from Properly Maintaining its Covenant Responsibilities (of managing its government as a Just entity (from three aspects) while maintaining “The Salt” of The Religion by Obeying The Doctrines (as they have been Written Down)which “balances the scales” whereby this Racial National Blessing is only one side while Corporate Obedience by The National Congregation is on the other side!!!

By their continual failure to keep “these scales” Properly Balanced – the ancestral Israelites consequently-would transform their Racial Blessing of National Peace and Prosperity into National Curse by falling-away from their Covenant Responsibilities to continually “free up” more and more time to pursue “more and more”: material wealth, recreation and selfism(i.e. THE BENEFACTOR Has Never so-Blessed any of the pagan races other than to appoint to them their geographical boundaries and their gods)so-repeating their National History in the same pattern of National Destruction over and over and over – being Delivered “right back” into Great (National) Tribulation where the non-recanted remnant (and\or its posterity) would stay until “that prayer” of 2nd Chron. 7:14 has-been Properly-Prayed, long enough (i.e. 10, 20, 40, 70 or more years) that Restoration to The Land would-Be So-Provided!!! Consequently – my primary “mission field” is America’s area of The Lack of Understanding i.e. man’s church i.e. Organized Religion i.e. The American Version of Christianity i.e. – I do witness to clerics!!! Fifth – I am very thankful that (so far) CTZ has maintained “the spirit” of Christian Fellowship so-allowing me to respond (re my posting re The Last Great Tribulation Period) more specifically re this posting – a copy of it follows below.


christiantalkzone.net

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/DELLUS%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gifThe Great Tribulation Period

Jacob's 12 Tribes "put themselves" into Great Tribulation Periods, over and over following each time THE BENEFACTOR Restored them to The Land by, once again, following the same pattern of National Destruction by "falling away" from their Covenant Responsibilities (re their Religion and Government)!!! Great Tribulation Periods are man-made i.e. the reaping of such seed-sowing!!! Never has Jacob's 12 Tribes ever received any Rapture from any of The Great Tribulation Periods their BENEFACTOR Delivered them into (else - how does Nations (and consequently individuals) reap what has been Sown?!!!)!!!

Jacob's 12 Tribes will Be Delivered into Great National Tribulation, one last time - for the last time i.e. WW III (threeworldwars.com). The (last) Great Tribulation Period consists of several parts: 1) WW III where by its Controlled Chaos Agenda is to de-populate this Earth of 2 to 3 BILLION of the 2nd and 3rd Worlders; 2) The Beast System restores Order in The Formality of their so-establishing the last World Order i.e. its Corporate-Global Plantation. During this time is when The Mark of The Beast will be rejected or taken!!!

The 1st 4 Seals represent WW III; The 5th Seal represents all of HIS martyrs from Stephen to the present time. They are instructed to be patient a little while longer until "the martyrs" of WW III and The Beast System are so-murdered then - soon after HE WILL take HIS Revenge!!!

3) Many of those who refuse "the mark" will-be so-martyred; 4) The Corporate-Global Plantation comes to "full fruition" - its operates as "well oiled" machinery, for a season; 5) HE then Returns to Destroy this last World Order!!!

His Wrath, as it is poured out upon The Corporate-Global Plantation far exceeds WW III - in horror!!! HE Says that HIS Church will not experience HIS Wrath!!! However - WW III and The Beast System i.e. the first two parts of the last Great Tribulation Period is not HIS Wrath - it is man's wrath and: 1) it cannot come to fruition until after The (last) Great Falling Away Period (which has been ongoing for 100 years) which is founded by Denominationalism (which includes non-Denominationalism) i.e. we, HIS people, bring the last Great Tribulation Period to fruition by operating America's largest cult and social club i.e. Denominationalism!!! - and 2) there is no Rapture, coming, for us to so-escape this bitter harvest of our own seed-sowing!!!

In fact - HE Brings With HIM - all HIS Martyrs when HE Returns To Destroy the Corporate-Global Plantation and they will sup upon a blood feast - up to the horse bridles!!! These are "the" they re "they" who will sit upon "the thrones" ruling over The 12 Tribes (in HIS Earthly Kingdom)!!!

It is our High Mandate to Properly Maintain The Covenant Responsibilities that HIS Return will be so-maintained as a Futuristic Advent, from generation to generation!!! Contact "f8fbearcat777@fastmail.fm" for more info re: "Jacob's Twelve Tribes were never and are not Jewish!!!" and for The Doctrine of The Lack of Understanding!!! WW III is-just - around the corner but - for one reason: Denominationalism is Religion with Responsibility i.e. Religion without Salt i.e. Christianity Without Christ!!!

From when Washington D.C. threw Divine LAW out of America's "front door", as if it was a "sack of smelly trash" to setting "a 30 year course" of continually illegally-legally legislating "good to be evil" and vice-versa - all-this has unfolded "in front view" of Denominationalism. From when WDC wrote HIM that "bill of divorcement", from America, to today - all Denominationalism has-done is "to sing" AMAZING GRACE and VICTORY IN JESUS as-if "nothing" was wrong so-testifying (in conjunction with that Denominationalism has access to 85% of America's resources and energy) that it is indeed America's largest cult and social club!!!

Consequently - by so buying into America's divorcing of her BENEFACTOR - Denominationalism has so-testified that it would rather have National Tragedies such as: OK City; Waco Tx; 911; Hurricane Katrina and on and on and on i.e. The Epitome of Ignorance whereby - The 2nd Covenant Testifies that there remains no more any Covering for The Iniquity of Ignorance!!! Denominationalism is "man's version" of Christianity and is not to-be-confused with Christ's scattered remnant CHURCH!!!



CoreIssue says:
Please give Biblical backing to defend those positions. Start with showing where there is any other stated Tribuation Period as comparable to the events of the 7 year Trib in the Bible.

My response will begin with The Doctrine of The Lack of Understanding. When St. Paul was “the high Pharisee Saul” – he had “The Scriptures” (that were available at that time called The Septuagint i.e. “the source” of Christ’s Quotes) sown indelibly in his heart and mind i.e. he-then could quote Scripture better than Jack Van Impe ever though he could). However – he “did not Know” that he “had no Understanding” of The Knowledge of The Scriptures. All – he understood was the Pharisee interpretation which was False Knowledge which was Paganism i.e. he-then belonged to one of the-then larger Denominations (i.e. sects i.e. he later taught let there be “no schisms” among you) of that time i.e. Paul-then “was possessed” by King David’s words i.e. Words without Understanding (i.e. Knowledge). Paul-then was a Biblical Scholar while being Ignorant (with Knowing this) of his scholarship!!!

Now – we-Understanding “the degree” that Ignorance (i.e. 100 percent) permeated his acquired Knowledge –let us suppose that we belong to Christ’s First Generation – New Testament Church (i.e. The Church which-is organized without being an organization!!!). We are being Properly-Taught and Equipped to-live under “the belly” of The Roman Pagan Empire without being exterminated i.e. to be “wise as serpents” while being “harmless as doves” i.e. Jacob has-since, by his dis-Obedience, finds himself subservient to pagan government (once again) i.e. at this time – The Twelve Tribes have no Nationalist Responsibilities (which is why Christ Condemned “this generation” (Matt. C-13 – this passage (from Isaiah) is repeated in three Gospels – Paul uses it three times – The Book of Acts ends with it). Part of “our so-being taught” is Understanding “how dangerous” Saul is to Christ’s Church!

One day “we” are in the Jerusalem Market Place and we see Saul conducting some personal business. He has on enough “religious garb” that he looks “that way” like the Roman pope!!! He would have a small escort with him – including some body guards. We begin whispering to each other re “what to do.” Stress is building up in us as we Understand “the risk” that our safety is in. As things happen – he has finished his purchases and is leaving that vendor and in our stress and confusion we – simply stumble into him.

Paul immediately wheels around to take notice of us – seeing us as “lower class” he extends his “left hand” (rings on all fingers) for us to worship him by kissing it!!! One of us then-beings to witness Christ to him. It takes Paul less than 30 seconds to Understand where these Words are coming from!!! Because he has important Denomination business, this day (perhaps a prayer breakfast with all the other cults to beseech their god to restore them to ownership of The Land)and because he immediately recognizes us as “two tadpoles” in a much bigger “frog pond” – he simply tells us that-if we want to keep “our heads” intact upon “our shoulders” then we best get out of his face and far away from him (we so comply – very quickly)!!!

For a future lesson (not at this time) neither he nor us “could know” that Paul has a certain destiny, ahead of him, on The Damascus Road!!! Here – please Understand “what it means” that “this destiny” will not happen on man’s plan of salvation road i.e. The Roman Road (man’s doctrine) but rather on THE LORD’S Road of Divine Purpose of Eternal Life!!! Please realize here that Paul Was-Not given “any invitation” to accept Christ as his Personal Savior (on this Road!!!)!!!

Truth is in History: Past, Present and Future as HE Says that HE IS “The Same”: yesterday, today and tomorrow – at “the burning bush” HE Told Moses that HE Changes Not i.e. HIS Opinion of Canaanites then (i.e. having The Twelve Tribes slaughter them: man, woman and child) is the same today!!! Without that “we” have All The History of The Bible sown in our hearts and minds then – there is “no grounds” for The Holy Spirit to Provide Understanding to us!!! As Saul – at least Paul-then had Biblical History sown in his heart and mind!!!

Now – re Great Tribulation, all wars are “great tribulation periods” anyone seeing the news-reels can easily Understand this – in the 3rd World nations of other races whereby Muslims have proselyted into Christianity – they constantly live in Great Tribulation as they are continually slaughtered while Washington D.C. will not “lift a finger” to help them!!! All Great Tribulation Periods are man-made by man sowing “such seeds” that generate “such harvests!!!” Jacob’s TTs constantly put themselves into Great Tribulation Periods (by their National Dis-Obedience)!!!

In Matthew C-24 – Christ Speaks re Tribulation coming upon this Earth as-such that has-never been experienced, in the past. There will be “the last” Great Tribulation Period i.e. WW III. It has been destined, by man, to complete “the agenda” that (Jewish) WW I and II have failed to complete i.e. to generate “the last” World Order i.e. The Formal Corporate-Global Plantation. WW III is man-made – exactly what WDC is doing, currently, in The Middle East where – it will come to full fruition – soon!!!

However – Christ HIMSELF Will Return “to destroy” The Corporate-Global Plantation. The Tribulation HE Pours Out upon TCGP is beyond “any tribulation” that man has ever generated including the murderous fire-bombing of Germany and Japan!!! REVELATION Says that TCGP will operate (as well oiled machinery) for a season i.e. for a short while. Then – we can divide up this-last Great Tribulation Period into these parts: WW III runs it course committing genocide against come 2 to 3 billion 2nd and 3rd Worlders; The Red (Edom-Jewish) Beast System replaces “the controlled chaos” of WW III with its Order; the Saints are slaughtered; TCGP operates for a short while; and, Christ Returns to pour out HIS Wrath upon it (then HE Establishes HIS Earthly Kingdom). Anyone enduring any Great Tribulation Period cannot comprehend “things” getting any worse!!!

I submit to CoreIssue for its consideration of my response to its request that I clarify my words. One thing here is – The King’s English is this World’s System most generic intelligent language i.e. it allows “preachers and politicians” to speak for hours without giving any Knowledge (such as Oboma so-cleverly speaks) while their respective “congregations and constituents” so-listen for hours without any Understanding that they received no Knowledge i.e. all the other languages of Jacob’s Twelve Tribes today have “word pictures” built in such as the: Spanish, German, Russian, French, Dutch and on and on!!! Without that we use The King’s English specifically and with “word pictures” – a congregation of 100 will be on a dozen (or more) different pages without “the pastor” even so-aware!!!

Because The Truth is in History,

Because HE Mandates Obedience,

I chose “to contend” for The Faith!!!

Ron Stauffer
(f8fbearcat777)

[CoreIssue]

Warning

You preached again and did not prove you case Biblically. This is not your pulpit.

You may continue posting if you offer Biblical proofs, not your opinions. Give us the verse basis for your claims. Otherwise you will not be posting again if you repeat this preaching.

And do not insult us by implying there is not a Historical study and understanding on much of the Bible here on CTZ. Or not a working knowledge of the Bible.

Christ proved his case by quoting the OT and proving his identity by fulfilling the prophecies he quoted. If Christ did it, we are told to study to show ourselves approved and to test against the scriptures you are not above that same demand.

[tangle sticks]

where faith in Jesus comes from

http://www.studiumexcitare.com/vol_4_no_1/where_faith_comes_from.html

[CoreIssue]

where faith in Jesus comes from

http://www.studiumexcitare.com/vol_4_no_1/where_faith_comes_from.html
OK. Time to compare Lutherans to Calvinist. Not a whole lot of difference as shown here (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=10&cuItem_itemID=15094).

I believe in what is generally called Secure Arminianism. That rejects Total Depravity and says a person has in inherent knowledge of God via the Law of Conscience. It says freewill determines how one will act on that knowledge. It says we can seek in freewill but God must finish the process of bringing us to whom or we would not make.

As posted before, Romans 8 says he knows who will love him and they he predestines to success. It does not say he will predestine who will love him.

We need to get clarity out there for all these Lutheran thrusts being made.

[tangle sticks]

where faith in Jesus comes from

http://www.studiumexcitare.com/vol_4_no_1/where_faith_comes_from.html
OK. Time to compare Lutherans to Calvinist. Not a whole lot of difference as shown here (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=10&cuItem_itemID=15094).

I believe in what is generally called Secure Arminianism. That rejects Total Depravity and says a person has in inherent knowledge of God via the Law of Conscience. It says freewill determines how one will act on that knowledge. It says we can seek in freewill but God must finish the process of bringing us to whom or we would not make.

As posted before, Romans 8 says he knows who will love him and they he predestines to success. It does not say he will predestine who will love him.

We need to get clarity out there for all these Lutheran thrusts being made.
--- ------------------------------------------------------------------
You honetly don't see a big difference between lutheran beliefs that God truly wants all to be saved John 3:16 and Calvin who believed God predestined people to unbelief and hell?
THAN YOU WOULD BE SOME SORT OF STUPID PERSON WHICH I DOUBT THAT YOU ARE .
I FIND YOU VERY INTELLIGENT INSTEAD.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes We give God all the glory for every sinner brought to faith in Jesus .
There for we believe only God gets the credit . as we say To God be all the glory power and honor . Amen
and yes
Lutherans also believe Jesus died for all and has won heaven for all .and God truly wants all to be saved just as scripture says . It is a persons fault alone , if he does not believe in Jesus and forfeits what Jesus has already won for them.

Lutherans reject Calvinistic beliefs !!! it was blashphemous of him to even think God created most people so that he could punish them in hell a predestination to unbelief.


check
http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=783&contentID=57253&shortcutID=20289

[Jessie]

where are you in this?

did you check the link you were given?

please explain what you believe and why.