a prayer from Jesus

[a.baker]

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

What exactly is He praying and what does He mean with "this cup" ?

[CoreIssue]

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

What exactly is He praying and what does He mean with "this cup" ?
His coming death. The cup is his dying for our sin.

He was human and understood what was coming.

[a.baker]

Thank x :D

[Willy]

A short time later He dealt with it. Peter had drawn a sword and removed the right ear of Malchus, a slave of the High Priest.

Jhn 18:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=18&translation=nas&x=4&y=10#) So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

[CoreIssue]

A short time later He dealt with it. Peter had drawn a sword and removed the right ear of Malchus, a slave of the High Priest.

Jhn 18:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=18&translation=nas&x=4&y=10#) So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"
Yep. Human discomfort did not override obedience. A lesson for all of us.

[Willy]

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

What exactly is He praying and what does He mean with "this cup" ?

So much was going on in Gethsemane. Here is a link to Spurgeon's sermon on this subject. I do not agree with all his points but I do believe he gives us a glimpse of probabilities associated with the great spiritual battle taking place here. I debated whether to post this but I believe all here have discernment in this area.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0493.htm

[CoreIssue]

I agree he sees a true conflict, but I don't agree temptations of Satan was the drive and souce of the true conflict.

Christ lived as a man, not God. So he approached the cross as a man. What man would want to knowingly go to such a death?

I think this boiled down to a struggle between love of God and fellow man versus love of self. The very conflict that brought Satan down before Adam when Satan surrendered to self desire and ego.

I have never seen the question of asking if possible to let the cup pass as letting Christ off the hook and leave Man on its own. To phrase it another way, I think the question was if there was another way to accomplish this purpose, let it be done that way and let me not suffer this death. But if no other option I will die.

Nothing wrong with dreading this death to me. But as is also said in the Bible that there is no greater love than one willing to die for another.

[InTheWind]

And to conclude that thought, isn`t that why He said on the cross that it`s finished.
Actually He said Father why have you forsaken me also, explain what He meant there I forgot.

[CoreIssue]

And to conclude that thought, isn`t that why He said on the cross that it`s finished.
Actually He said Father why have you forsaken me also, explain what He meant there I forgot.
Because at that point all the sins of the saints were upon him and the Father turned away from the sin upon. The sin of other temporarily separated him from God, which is what sin does.

[Willy]

Not intended to be confrontational but more just to expand and explore.

Willy:tiphat:


I agree he sees a true conflict, but I don't agree temptations of Satan was the drive and souce of the true conflict.

We know it was a battle within that made Him sweat great drops of blood. He returned three times to His disciples twice asking them to pray that they not enter into temptation; so spiritual battle in some form was on His mind at least with regards to them. I see it as a possible part of His conflict.

Christ lived as a man, not God. So he approached the cross as a man. What man would want to knowingly go to such a death?

I agree that His humanity (Son of Man) was certainly dealing with what lay ahead. I have to allow His Deity (Son of God), although emptied of glory to recoil from being made sin. We can’t separate the two natures, help me here … He had to be a sinless man …. He fulfilled the requirements of the law in this regard without the help of His Deity, but in a way almost incomprehensible to man. …Total dependence on His Father and (or through) the Spirit of God?

I think this boiled down to a struggle between love of God and fellow man versus love of self.

Yes I see this a bit even from the Deity side (recoiling from sin) but certainly from the human side of the family. .. self preservation. How do we get the Eternal Son (Deity) together with sin without sweating great drops of blood even at the thought? .. The more I look at it; this might be the “drive and source” of Gethsemane?

The very conflict that brought Satan down before Adam when Satan surrendered to self desire and ego.

I certainly see a correlation between the fall of Satan and the fall of the first Adam although I have to allow Satan a fuller knowledge of the character of God.
The Lord Jesus as second Adam certainly addresses this issue as He is man (Son of Man) without sin. I see the dealing with ego more in the temptation in the desert as Satan offers our Lord all the kingdoms of the world if He would worship him. Did Satan see Jesus as the Eternal Son, Second Person of the Godhead or just the Holy One of God, yet to be defined?

At His birth do we have a parallel between His humanity and His Deity in terms of development? That is to say was His Deity emptied to the point where He had to grow into it the same way a child grows into an adult? Or was it just in the background in sense of power only, but aware in the truest sense of the mind of God?

I have never seen the question of asking if possible to let the cup pass as letting Christ off the hook and leave Man on its own. To phrase it another way, I think the question was if there was another way to accomplish this purpose, let it be done that way and let me not suffer this death. But if no other option I will die.

I agree. There was never any thought that He would renege and refuse the cup. I think we have been allowed to see the “working through” and the “inner struggle” that God new from the foundation of the world would result in His Son accepting that cup.

Nothing wrong with dreading this death to me.

Death as in separation of soul and spirit from body but also when made sin, separation from God?
Agree, but on what level? Man? Son of Man? God? Son of God? All of the above?
..can we separate His Deity from His humanity, allow the humanity to die and pay the price of sin and then rebuild Him into His dual nature?

But as is also said in the Bible that there is no greater love than one willing to die for another.

I agree. It is the noblest act. What sets this apart is who the individual is and who He is dying for. … not for His friends only, but for the ungodly … you and me and any other lost soul that the Spirit can convict of sin, and be drawn to this Amazing Incarnate Being for forgiveness. We preach the Gospel not to God’s friends but to His enemies in earnest hope that some might be saved. Many missionaries have given their lives for enemies they might not like, but are compelled to love. “because He first loved us.” “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.” Now, … “We beseech you in Christ’s stead,” “Be ye reconciled to God.” …But not one missionary has been forsaken by God. The darkness brought out His cry of being “forsaken.”

[CoreIssue]

Not intended to be confrontational but more just to expand and explore.

Willy:tiphat:
Not a problem.
I agree he sees a true conflict, but I don't agree temptations of Satan was the drive and souce of the true conflict.
We know it was a battle within that made Him sweat great drops of blood. He returned three times to His disciples twice asking them to pray that they not enter into temptation; so spiritual battle in some form was on His mind at least with regards to them. I see it as a possible part of His conflict.

Christ recognized that if he felt such stress and anxiety over what he was about to go through he surely recognized a normal person with a sin nature would suffer even more greatly, thus be tempted to bail.

People want to spend too much time blaming Satan for everything. Reality is Satan cannot be everywhere at once, nor can demons.
Christ lived as a man, not God. So he approached the cross as a man. What man would want to knowingly go to such a death?
I agree that His humanity (Son of Man) was certainly dealing with what lay ahead. I have to allow His Deity (Son of God), although emptied of glory to recoil from being made sin. We can’t separate the two natures, help me here … He had to be a sinless man …. He fulfilled the requirements of the law in this regard without the help of His Deity, but in a way almost incomprehensible to man. …Total dependence on His Father and (or through) the Spirit of God?[/QUOTE]
When the Bible says he lived as a man it means he lived as a man, a total man.

People keep thinking he was diety pretending to be a man. He was a man, just like you and me except for a total lack of sin nature, which is a huge difference.

He knew he was God incarnate but he had totally set aside his authority, knowledge, power and all else. That left his spirit divine but only operating on a human level.

It is a bad example but picture a National Guard Armory where every weapon is in the gun vault with the door locked and no one is able to access the guns. An enemy attacks. The guns are there but of no use because they cannot be accessed.
I think this boiled down to a struggle between love of God and fellow man versus love of self.
Yes I see this a bit even from the Deity side (recoiling from sin) but certainly from the human side of the family. .. self preservation. How do we get the Eternal Son (Deity) together with sin without sweating great drops of blood even at the thought? .. The more I look at it; this might be the “drive and source” of Gethsemane? [/QUOTE]
You have to stop trying to have God functioning here. Jesus the man was all that was in operation here.
The very conflict that brought Satan down before Adam when Satan surrendered to self desire and ego.
I certainly see a correlation between the fall of Satan and the fall of the first Adam although I have to allow Satan a fuller knowledge of the character of God.
The Lord Jesus as second Adam certainly addresses this issue as He is man (Son of Man) without sin.
The only difference is that the First Adam failed and fell, the Second succeeded and won. Nothing to do with divinity. It required a full human male to succeed. God could not or he would not have taken on flesh when there was no need.
I see the dealing with ego more in the temptation in the desert as Satan offers our Lord all the kingdoms of the world if He would worship him. Did Satan see Jesus as the Eternal Son, Second Person of the Godhead or just the Holy One of God, yet to be defined?
He saw him as the human being God invested with ruler ship of the earth.

God gave dominion to Adam and when Adam caved to Satan his dominion moved to Satan. Satan was trying to do the same routine again with the distinction that if he succeeded this time he would eternally rule the earth.

You do not understand this was a human issue per how God did the Six Days of Creation.
At His birth do we have a parallel between His humanity and His Deity in terms of development? That is to say was His Deity emptied to the point where He had to grow into it the same way a child grows into an adult? Or was it just in the background in sense of power only, but aware in the truest sense of the mind of God?
Human. Totally human. Deity does not grow and develop. Deity is.
I have never seen the question of asking if possible to let the cup pass as letting Christ off the hook and leave Man on its own. To phrase it another way, I think the question was if there was another way to accomplish this purpose, let it be done that way and let me not suffer this death. But if no other option I will die.
I agree. There was never any thought that He would renege and refuse the cup. I think we have been allowed to see the “working through” and the “inner struggle” that God new from the foundation of the world would result in His Son accepting that cup.

Agree. But accept as human, not God.
Nothing wrong with dreading this death to me.
Death as in separation of soul and spirit from body but also when made sin, separation from God?
The pain and agony he would have to go through in the dieing.
Agree, but on what level? Man? Son of Man? God? Son of God? All of the above?
Human. He lived as a human.
..can we separate His Deity from His humanity, allow the humanity to die and pay the price of sin and then rebuild Him into His dual nature?
No. His flesh died but his spirit did not.

After the resurrection was complete and he was glorified he became fully human in the flesh and fully, unrestricted, God in his spirit. His mind is the merger of both, as our minds are mergers of spirit and flesh.
But as is also said in the Bible that there is no greater love than one willing to die for another.
I agree. It is the noblest act. What sets this apart is who the individual is and who He is dying for. … not for His friends only, but for the ungodly … you and me and any other lost soul that the Spirit can convict of sin, and be drawn to this Amazing Incarnate Being for forgiveness. We preach the Gospel not to God’s friends but to His enemies in earnest hope that some might be saved. Many missionaries have given their lives for enemies they might not like, but are compelled to love. “because He first loved us.” “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.” Now, … “We beseech you in Christ’s stead,” “Be ye reconciled to God.” …But not one missionary has been forsaken by God. The darkness brought out His cry of being “forsaken.”
Agree.

[Jessie]

I once had my sil who is wof tell me it was no big deal for Jesus to go to the cross, he did'nt feel it he was God.

my mouth hit the floor. it explained a lot.....

without realizing what Jesus went thru for us, one would never realize the importance of this, and take it so lightly as though it did'nt happen.

[Willy]

I once had my sil who is wof tell me it was no big deal for Jesus to go to the cross, he did'nt feel it he was God.

my mouth hit the floor. it explained a lot.....

without realizing what Jesus went thru for us, one would never realize the importance of this, and take it so lightly as though it did'nt happen.

Sometimes it is the tear in the eye of the teller that makes it real.:nod:

[Willy]

His flesh died but his spirit did not.

spirit does not die. ... Where was His when "made sin" on cross?:hmm:

[Willy]

After the resurrection was complete and he was glorified he became fully human in the flesh and fully, unrestricted, God in his spirit. His mind is the merger of both, as our minds are mergers of spirit and flesh.I am the Alpha and Omega, ... I Jesus

[Willy]

He saw him as the human being God invested with ruler ship of the earth.

God gave dominion to Adam and when Adam caved to Satan his dominion moved to Satan. Satan was trying to do the same routine again with the distinction that if he succeeded this time he would eternally rule the earth.Agree. Dealing with a legal transfer of "Dominion."

[Willy]

The only difference is that the First Adam failed and fell, the Second succeeded and won. Nothing to do with divinity. It required a full human male to succeed. God could not or he would not have taken on flesh when there was no need.Yes but the human male had to be born without a sin nature so required God's help. ... Agree it had to involve a sinless human.

[Willy]

He knew he was God incarnate but he had totally set aside his authority, knowledge, power and all else. That left his spirit divine but only operating on a human level.

It is a bad example but picture a National Guard Armory where every weapon is in the gun vault with the door locked and no one is able to access the guns. An enemy attacks. The guns are there but of no use because they cannot be accessed.I like the armory analogy ... mine has the doors of His armory open and the weapons accessible but choosing not to use them. More Glory for Him.:pray:

[Willy]

People want to spend too much time blaming Satan for everything. Reality is Satan cannot be everywhere at once, nor can demons.We are responsible for our actions.

I believe however, that our battle is mostly in the spiritual realm as per Ephesians etc. and believe Satan is more manifest as an "Angel of light." as opposed to a fire breathing dragon and so only has to corrupt the heads of various religious establishments, etc.

[Willy]

People keep thinking he was deity pretending to be a man. He was a man, just like you and me except for a total lack of sin nature, which is a huge difference.No pretending here. If he contained even a totally empty divine spirit, then I would refer to Him as God manifest in Flesh.

But:

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

"the glory of giving up glory, the honour of surrendering honour, the reputation of being of no reputation, for the sake of the glory, honour and reputation of others."