Christian missionaries and a muslim in a dialogue Face to Face.

[Jupiter]

The links are from youtube. very interesting. Will help understand what muslims and christians have in common and where they have differences. Take a afew minutes and watch all the videos.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lYYjoOFlzvE&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ImTPeXUPA0&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GFTNWZX9OdQ&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJ6X8TRg_-k&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jSrR-kKgVq4&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w4HnTQVne70&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XPvPDOTPieA&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zRfDlYW4iuc&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uXjc_jzabVU&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wCOOLVCVLyY&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SplSDQRre9s&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VvAx_xOpDJE&feature=related

[InTheWind]

I did`t listen to them all or need too, he made it clear that Jesus was a prophet of God and that he worship Allah. Not the same God that i`m celebrating Christmas about. :scratch:

[Jessie]

nope they dont like distinct differences.

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by me" ....

what part of that do they not get?

[CoreIssue]

Well, I skimmed the tapes. The announcers were giving pro Islamic speeches. So much for impartiality.

Then skimming the Islamic presenters, facts, evidence and history were not presented. Rhetoric and quotes from the Koran were presented as being proof enough.

Nope. This was an Islamic teaching and indoctrination presentation, not a fair contrast.

Islam and Christianity do not have the same God, Jesus, Gospel, prophets or anything else. We share nothing in common.

Some of us are very familiar with this kind of 'discussion' and 'debate,' having tried to open a dialogue on a major Islamic forum. It was futility and a waste of time.

This was a sneaky way of preaching Islam in an attempt to avoid the forum rules. It will be allowed to remain as a lesson in how Islam has no interest in true discussion and debate.

Please do not do it again.

[Jupiter]

nope they dont like distinct differences.

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by me" ....

what part of that do they not get?

Yes you are right. Jesus is the way.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[Jupiter]

nope they dont like distinct differences.

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by me" ....

what part of that do they not get?

Yes you are right. Jesus is the way.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jessie what you said is Jesus is the way meanning follow Jesus.Follow His teachings. But do all the christians follow what Jesus has commanded in the Bible.

[CoreIssue]

Jessie what you said is Jesus is the way meanning follow Jesus.Follow His teachings. But do all the christians follow what Jesus has commanded in the Bible.

No one follows all the teachings of the Bible 100%. We all fail in some way.

To be Christian means one submits to the true Jesus as Lord and Savior by repentence in faith through grace.

Many claim to be Christian who do not repent, have another Jesus and otherwise reject or do not give submit to Christ. They are Christian in name only, not in truth.

Islam has another Jesus, a false Christ who is an anti-christ.

Your focus on the commandments and not Jesus is legalism. It makes him a police officer and not the source of Law or Life.

He is God incarnate, Second Person of the Trinity, which Islam rejects.

[InTheWind]

Jupiter, I want to know what your purpose is with these posts. Are you Muslim or a Christian, lets get that out in the open first instead of playing games and trying sly methods of sneaking in non Christian views.
Please tell us your position before going any further.

[Jupiter]

These verses from the Bible are confusing me.
Mathew 5:17-20
17(AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23252AB)) "Do not think that I have come to abolish(AC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23252AC)) the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but(AD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23252AD)) to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you,(AE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23253AE)) until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19(AF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23254AF)) Therefore whoever relaxes(AG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23254AG)) one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least(AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23254AH)) in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds(AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23255AI)) that of the scribes and Pharisees, you(AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23255AJ)) will never enter the kingdom of heavens.

aren't christians depriving of them of the heavens by not following the commandments. Verse 20 says if the rightousness does not exceeds that of the scribes they will never enter the kingdom of heavens.

[Jupiter]

Jupiter, I want to know what your purpose is with these posts. Are you Muslim or a Christian, lets get that out in the open first instead of playing games and trying sly methods of sneaking in non Christian views.
Please tell us your position before going any further.

I am telling christians to go back and read your scriptures.....

[InTheWind]

Houston we have a problem. :(

[CoreIssue]

These verses from the Bible are confusing me.
Mathew 5:17-20
17(AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23252AB)) "Do not think that I have come to abolish(AC (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23252AC)) the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but(AD (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23252AD)) to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you,(AE (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23253AE)) until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19(AF (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23254AF)) Therefore whoever relaxes(AG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23254AG)) one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least(AH (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23254AH)) in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds(AI (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23255AI)) that of the scribes and Pharisees, you(AJ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%20;&version=47;#cen-ESV-23255AJ)) will never enter the kingdom of heavens.

aren't christians depriving of them of the heavens by not following the commandments. Verse 20 says if the rightousness does not exceeds that of the scribes they will never enter the kingdom of heavens.
He did fulfill them and they are not disregarded.

The Muslim definition of righteousness is the same as the Pharisees. Pure legalism with no regard to the intent of the Law as Jesus taught.

Muslims are slaughtering each other over their intepretations of Muslims legalities, so don't try to bring Muslims are so much more righteous than Christians to the table.

Islam disregards the scriptures by tossing out much of the Old Testament and all the New Testament. Real observance and obedience there.

Muslims believe they can earn their way to Heaven. OT and NT both teach you cannot. That salvation is a gift one can only ask for.

Now, please answer ITW's questions. This is not a platform for preaching Islam.

We are willing to discuss, but that requires give and take, questions and answers in both directions. So far you have only been doing the give, which we cannot allow to continue.
I am telling christians to go back and read your scriptures.....
We do. You haven't. Or you would know your the foundation of your statement and demand is false.

Please answer ITW and tell me why you bother to quote what you don't accept. That being Jesus speaking as Lord, Savior and God incarnate.

[Jupiter]

I would say Lord speaking through Jesus.

[CoreIssue]

I would say Lord speaking through Jesus.
You are dodging. Be upfront.

You reject the New Testament and much of the Old Testament, reject Jesus is God incarnate, reject God is triune in number and reject salvation cannot be earned by your works. Correct?

[Jupiter]

I donot reject the old and the new Testament. I do believe they were Divinely revealed but the one we have now is not the original. The original might be buried somewhere in the earth. I do believe one has to work his way to salvation by following all the rulings not by just believing. I personally think if you believe something and do something else makes you a hypocrite. I also think the current Christian faith is not doing justice to the people who had lived before Jesus. Who had to follow the teachings of Moses Abraham and so on to the very first. Those people had to work for their salvation no body Died for their Sins.

[CoreIssue]

I donot reject the old and the new Testament. I do believe they were Divinely revealed but the one we have now is not the original.
Standard Muslim reply but totally lacking in evidence.

Fact is archaelogy and scholarship shows the writing within the NT are the writing of the first century.

You actually have nothing but an Islamic claim they are not because Islam cannot stand if they are, in fact.

We know Jesus was crucifed, which Islam denies, in example. Time and finds have eliminated those old arguments.

As well, we know Islam came out of ancient Persian Mysticism, which is where the Allah of Islam, the symbols and such came. An undeniable reality today.

We also know no Quran was written until centuries after Mohammed and was one version picked from many.

Just pointing out the evidence and facts back the Bible, not Islam.
The original might be buried somewhere in the earth.
Might. No facts, just a claim.

Plus there was no 'Bible' at the times of the Apostles. There was the OT plus their revelations, yet pulled together to form the Bible.
I do believe one has to work his way to salvation by following all the rulings not by just believing.
Islam teaches that, the Bible does not.

Even the OT sacrifices for sin were substitutionary, not works.
I personally think if you believe something and do something else makes you a hypocrite.
Or failed humans?

Even the Bible tells you that no one can keep the Law perfectly. None.

Islam says it means love. Yet try living in Islamic nations and not being of the main Islamic sect in control. You are in big trouble.

Mohammed spread 'love' at the point of a sword. Non Muslims are infidels and not human.

So how many times can you fail to keep what you believe and stand any chance of going to Paradise?
I also think the current Christian faith is not doing justice to the people who had lived before Jesus. Who had to follow the teachings of Moses Abraham and so on to the very first. Those people had to work for their salvation no body Died for their Sins.
Then you don't understand the OT if you say that.

The legal demands of the OT were actually quite low. More is expected in the NT than was expected in to old.

OT Israel did not pray 5 times a day, require their women to hide under cloth, did not frown upon new discoveries and commerce and many other things Islam demands.

They actually had one standard Holy Day a week, the Sabbath. And yes, food and some other laws, but nothing that was a burden.

[Jupiter]

So what are you trying to proof.

[CoreIssue]

So what are you trying to proof.
That you are just offering opinions not based on history, facts or knowledge of the Bible. You are simply quoting the Islamic line you were told, but have not tested to prove.

Islam crumbles in the face of actually examination. Christianity does not.

And I say that fully recognizing many who say they are Christians are not and many really lack knowledge. Fuall admission on those points.

By the way, Catholicism has never ever been Christianity as a whole. Did not exist in the beginning and has never been universal. It was just very powerful due to political power, as was Islam during its Empire days and that power is still dominate in many countries.

[Jupiter]

Islam crumbles in the face of actually examination. Christianity does not.

I doubt that....





Don't blame Islam for the act of individual as I have never also blaimed christianity for what the christians do.
Give reasons from its authentic sources.

[Jupiter]

[quote=Jupiter;28143]

By the way, Catholicism has never ever been Christianity as a whole. Did not exist in the beginning and has never been universal. It was just very powerful due to political power, as was Islam during its Empire days and that power is still dominate in many countries.

And also where can I find christianity as a whole.

[CoreIssue]

Islam crumbles in the face of actually examination. Christianity does not.

I doubt that
Again, personal opinion and Islamic teaching.

Try examining actual history, as in Roman documentation from the time of Christ concernig Jesus. Or ancient scripts that show the OT of the Patriarches is the same as today. And first century manuscript evidence shows the books of the Bible have not been altered. Even Judaistic history and such concerning Christ and ancient Christianity.

History also shows the Crescent and Islamic Allah in the ancient Persian Pantheon of gods. And that Mohammad didn't believe in just Allah as the only divine being.

History, archaelogy and facts are not friends of Islam.

[CoreIssue]

[quote=Jupiter;28143]

By the way, Catholicism has never ever been Christianity as a whole. Did not exist in the beginning and has never been universal. It was just very powerful due to political power, as was Islam during its Empire days and that power is still dominate in many countries.

And also where can I find christianity as a whole.
The Bible and the historical followers recorded in history from the Apostles on.

There is no more one 'Christianity' anymore than there is one 'Islam.'

[Jupiter]

Islam crumbles in the face of actually examination. Christianity does not.

I doubt that
Again, personal opinion and Islamic teaching.

Try examining actual history, as in Roman documentation from the time of Christ concernig Jesus. Or ancient scripts that show the OT of the Patriarches is the same as today. And first century manuscript evidence shows the books of the Bible have not been altered. Even Judaistic history and such concerning Christ and ancient Christianity.

History also shows the Crescent and Islamic Allah in the ancient Persian Pantheon of gods. And that Mohammad didn't believe in just Allah as the only divine being.

History, archaelogy and facts are not friends of Islam.

Why do the books of God needs support from History. why can't they speak of them self.

Crescent is not an Islamic sign and actually There is no symbol that represent Islam. Crescent was only taken to distinguish them from the non muslims.

The word Allah was not invented by muslims. The word existed preIslamic times. According to Islam the word was choosen only because in the Arabic context the word cannot be changed or manupilated. Like english word God when written as Gods, Goddess. More then one God or a female God. That is not the case with that word Allah.
The word Allah is not used by muslims but also Arab christian and jews to.
Arab Christians today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#_note-Cambridge), they for example use terms Allāh al-ab. al-ab in arabic means the father. Allah al-ab means God the father.

My real questions still goes unanswered. why donot the christians follow Jesus as a whole. Meaning Bible as a whole.

[Jessie]

Islam crumbles in the face of actually examination. Christianity does not.

I doubt that
Again, personal opinion and Islamic teaching.

Try examining actual history, as in Roman documentation from the time of Christ concernig Jesus. Or ancient scripts that show the OT of the Patriarches is the same as today. And first century manuscript evidence shows the books of the Bible have not been altered. Even Judaistic history and such concerning Christ and ancient Christianity.

History also shows the Crescent and Islamic Allah in the ancient Persian Pantheon of gods. And that Mohammad didn't believe in just Allah as the only divine being.

History, archaelogy and facts are not friends of Islam.

Why do the books of God needs support from History. why can't they speak of them self.

Crescent is not an Islamic sign and actually There is no symbol that represent Islam. Crescent was only taken to distinguish them from the non muslims.

The word Allah was not invented by muslims. The word existed preIslamic times. According to Islam the word was choosen only because in the Arabic context the word cannot be changed or manupilated. Like english word God when written as Gods, Goddess. More then one God or a female God. That is not the case with that word Allah.
The word Allah is not used by muslims but also Arab christian and jews to.
Arab Christians today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#_note-Cambridge), they for example use terms Allāh al-ab. al-ab in arabic means the father. Allah al-ab means God the father.

My real questions still goes unanswered. why donot the christians follow Jesus as a whole. Meaning Bible as a whole.

what exactly do you mean by that following the bible as a whole.
where is it you are saying they dont?

[CoreIssue]

Why do the books of God needs support from History. why can't they speak of them self.

Because history is but on test upon which accuracy and truth rise and fall.

Islamic claims fail miserably about Jesus, alone, in light of historical fact.

And how do you determine which books are from God? There is the Quoran, Bible, Book of Mormon, Hindu, Seik and on and on claimed books. None agree with each other.

Which belongs to God? Only one can.
Crescent is not an Islamic sign and actually There is no symbol that represent Islam. Crescent was only taken to distinguish them from the non muslims.

Really? Been used from Mohammed on. The sign of the Persia god Allah.

Don't try to escape the meaning and signficance. You cannot.
The word Allah was not invented by muslims. The word existed preIslamic times.
Yep, the name of an ancient god among many gods and goddesses. The one who Mohammed embraced.
According to Islam the word was choosen only because in the Arabic context the word cannot be changed or manupilated.
Invented excuse to try to change historical fact.
Like english word God when written as Gods, Goddess. More then one God or a female God. That is not the case with that word Allah.

But the Biblical word God comes from the Hebrew word Elohim, not the English. The uniplural form was only used for the one true God.
The word Allah is not used by muslims but also Arab christian and jews to.
Yep. It has taken on a generic meaning in the language over time. But the origin is the Persian pagan god Allah.
Arab Christians today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#_note-Cambridge), they for example use terms Allāh al-ab. al-ab in arabic means the father. Allah al-ab means God the father.

Yep. But today does not deal with the origin. So a periphral argument diverting from the core issue.
My real questions still goes unanswered. why donot the christians follow Jesus as a whole. Meaning Bible as a whole.
Real Christians do. Your problem is your Shopping Cart Theology approach to the definition.

If you understood ALL the teachings form the Bible you would not even present that argument.

Christ said it is not the letter of the law but the intent. A statement not found in your arguments.

[CoreIssue]

what exactly do you mean by that following the bible as a whole.
where is it you are saying they dont?

The same error as the Pharisees and Sadducees. Trying to reduce everything to a written law.

[Jupiter]

Christ said it is not the letter of the law but the intent.

Can you please tell me the location for that verse in the Bible.

[CoreIssue]

Christ said it is not the letter of the law but the intent.

Can you please tell me the location for that verse in the Bible.
Try reading the rest of Matthew 5. The intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God that translates into external obedience out of love, not fear of the Law.

Why did Christ condemn the Pharisees and Sadducees who were so strict on the letter of the Law? Because they had no clue of the inner reality and truth that Law was truly about.

NO human can keep the Law completely. ANY transgression of the slightest known law condemns ones to Hell. You CANNOT work out your own payment for your sins. Never.

Christ, who never sinned, ever, paid for all repentents sins by paying a price for others.

Islam does not get that reality. No Muslim ever can please God out of their own efforts. Ever.

So who is more humble before God? Those who understand they are totally dependent upon Christ or those who think they can earn their own way and please God by their own efforts?

In spite of the liars within both religions, which has been more peaceful, kind and sharing with others? Sure not Islam.

Who is happier within their own spirits? True Christians, not Muslims.

Christians work to be more Christ like out of love of him. Muslims work hard to be legally pure to obtain Paradise. We have no need to be legal, just a loving desire to please our Lord. Islam forces people to be Muslim while Christianity persaudes people to change out of freewill.

So many vast differences and it shows.

Yep, Christianity is fading in the world, as prophecied. Islam and other religions are growing, as prophecied. And the end of it is prophecied. All prophecied in the Bible.

[InTheWind]

Yep, Christianity is fading in the world, as prophecied. Islam and other religions are growing, as prophecied. And the end of it is prophecied. All prophecied in the Bible.

And why it is so important to ACCEPT CHRIST for who He is before it`s to late. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Yep, Christianity is fading in the world, as prophecied. Islam and other religions are growing, as prophecied. And the end of it is prophecied. All prophecied in the Bible.

And why it is so important to ACCEPT CHRIST for who He is before it`s to late. :nod:
Huge detail I neglected to point out.

Thanks for catching that one.

[Jupiter]

Try reading the rest of Matthew 5. The intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God that translates into external obedience out of love, not fear of the Law.
I read Mathew chapter 5. The meaning that I could figure out of the intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God into external obedience out of love is that follow the law with the intention that the law is from God. verses 1 to 12 God is giving Hope to the believers. Stay stead fast in the truth and bear all the hardships that fall on you and you will be rewarded like the one before you. Verses 17 to 20 are about the fullfilment of the law. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
These verses clearly speaks the law should be followed. I have also read that Before Jesus went to the temple of Solomon Jews priest had applied the laws of the Bible but they only made the poor follow it and they themself never followed it. That is what Jesus is trying to empasize. Follow the law with the intent of love because the law is from God. If you read the last verse Righteousness is the factor to enter heavens. Who decides righteousness. Only God can. Only God and that person knows what the intentions were. How God is going to do justice with righteousness. . Who ever follows the law will be Judged according to that.


NO human can keep the Law completely. ANY transgression of the slightest known law condemns ones to Hell. You CANNOT work out your own payment for your sins. Never.

Christ, who never sinned, ever, paid for all repentents sins by paying a price for others.

Islam does not get that reality. No Muslim ever can please God out of their own efforts. Ever.

So who is more humble before God? Those who understand they are totally dependent upon Christ or those who think they can earn their own way and please God by their own efforts?
I totally agree with you. no human can keep the law completely. God has created the world in that way. There is the satan who is at his best that no one follow the laws of the God. and there is the worldly desires. Its a rough path. But what God wants is his man should try to follow His laws and commandments. Deffinenlty in the way to heaven he would stumble, slip away, and will fall but should not loose hope. He should get up and keep moving.
Islam does not get the reality I would doubt that. What you are trying to say here is not what the muslim says or believe. Muslim don't say they can please God with their own efforts and earn paradise. Allah has bestowed so many blessings upon mankind that it is impossible to payback. The smallest blessing is the air we breath without that we cannot even survive. What Allah say is we should be thankfull of his blessings that he has bestowed upon us. No one should be proud of himself or arrogant of what Allah has given him. Quran also says no soul shall be tested more than it can bear. Every soul is going to be tested according to its enviornment. How much righteousness was expected of it and how much is achieved and there are hundreds of verses in the quran and the hadiths that speaks about the glad tidings of the heavens for the believers. They are almost nearly guaranteed. It is the nature of the man that when something is guarenteed to him he would relax and stop working for it. If in a class the teacher says every one will get an A no matter what he does. Naturally harldy anyone will study because they will get an A regardless. All God wants is his man should try to follow his laws. worship the creator. Everything comes to intentions. If he is doing with true intentions no matter if he comes short he will be forgiven. All muslims ask God in their prayers to forgive them. save them from the hellfire. Prays coming from truthfull hearts are excepted in the heavens.





Yep, Christianity is fading in the world, as prophecied. Islam and other religions are growing, as prophecied. And the end of it is prophecied. All prophecied in the Bible.
There are many prophecies of Islam that have come true or are about to come true. I am only quoting one below.
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established (1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, (2) till about thirty Dajjals (liars) appear, and each one of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle, (3) till the religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars) (4) earthquakes will increase in number (5) time will pass quickly, (6) afflictions will appear, (7) Al-Harj, (i.e., killing) will increase, (8) till wealth will be in abundance ---- so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say, 'I am not in need of it, (9) till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings, (10) till a man when passing by a grave of someone will say, 'Would that I were in his place (11) and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,) 'No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.158) And the Hour will be established while two men spreading a garment in front of them but they will not be able to sell it, nor fold it up; and the Hour will be established when a man has milked his she-camel and has taken away the milk but he will not be able to drink it; and the Hour will be established before a man repairing a tank (for his livestock) is able to water (his animals) in it; and the Hour will be established when a person has raised a morsel (of food) to his mouth but will not be able to eat it."

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;28154]
Try reading the rest of Matthew 5. The intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God that translates into external obedience out of love, not fear of the Law.
I read Mathew chapter 5. The meaning that I could figure out of the intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God into external obedience out of love is that follow the law with the intention that the law is from God. verses 1 to 12 God is giving Hope to the believers. Stay stead fast in the truth and bear all the hardships that fall on you and you will be rewarded like the one before you. Verses 17 to 20 are about the fullfilment of the law. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
These verses clearly speaks the law should be followed. I have also read that Before Jesus went to the temple of Solomon Jews priest had applied the laws of the Bible but they only made the poor follow it and they themself never followed it. That is what Jesus is trying to empasize. Follow the law with the intent of love because the law is from God. If you read the last verse Righteousness is the factor to enter heavens. Who decides righteousness. Only God can. Only God and that person knows what the intentions were. How God is going to do justice with righteousness. . Who ever follows the law will be Judged according to that.

Nope. It does not say obedience to the law saves one. That is legalism and the failure to obey one law at any time condemns you to eternity in Hell. Therefore by your view no one will ever enter Heaven.

And I don't need to work on assumption here since it is literally stated.

Ephesians 2

Made Alive in Christ

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202&version=31#fen-NIV-29217a)] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Romans 3

No One is Righteous

10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-27989c)]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-27990d)]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-27990e)]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-27991f)]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-27994g)]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-27995h)]

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%203&version=31#fen-NIV-28002i)] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.




NO human can keep the Law completely. ANY transgression of the slightest known law condemns ones to Hell. You CANNOT work out your own payment for your sins. Never.

Christ, who never sinned, ever, paid for all repentents sins by paying a price for others.

Islam does not get that reality. No Muslim ever can please God out of their own efforts. Ever.

So who is more humble before God? Those who understand they are totally dependent upon Christ or those who think they can earn their own way and please God by their own efforts?
I totally agree with you. no human can keep the law completely. God has created the world in that way. There is the satan who is at his best that no one follow the laws of the God. and there is the worldly desires. Its a rough path. But what God wants is his man should try to follow His laws and commandments. Deffinenlty in the way to heaven he would stumble, slip away, and will fall but should not loose hope. He should get up and keep moving.
Islam does not get the reality I would doubt that. What you are trying to say here is not what the muslim says or believe. Muslim don't say they can please God with their own efforts and earn paradise. Allah has bestowed so many blessings upon mankind that it is impossible to payback. The smallest blessing is the air we breath without that we cannot even survive. What Allah say is we should be thankfull of his blessings that he has bestowed upon us. No one should be proud of himself or arrogant of what Allah has given him. Quran also says no soul shall be tested more than it can bear. Every soul is going to be tested according to its enviornment. How much righteousness was expected of it and how much is achieved and there are hundreds of verses in the quran and the hadiths that speaks about the glad tidings of the heavens for the believers. They are almost nearly guaranteed. It is the nature of the man that when something is guarenteed to him he would relax and stop working for it. If in a class the teacher says every one will get an A no matter what he does. Naturally harldy anyone will study because they will get an A regardless. All God wants is his man should try to follow his laws. worship the creator. Everything comes to intentions. If he is doing with true intentions no matter if he comes short he will be forgiven. All muslims ask God in their prayers to forgive them. save them from the hellfire. Prays coming from truthfull hearts are excepted in the heavens.

Yep. Legalism.

You are judged by your efforts to keep the Law. So if you don't keep the Law to some extent X, you perish.

That makes you personally responsible for your salvation. God judges if you have earned salvation by meeting some set of personal successes.

Sin is negated by weighing good against bad or is simply forgetten without payment.




Yep, Christianity is fading in the world, as prophecied. Islam and other religions are growing, as prophecied. And the end of it is prophecied. All prophecied in the Bible.
There are many prophecies of Islam that have come true or are about to come true. I am only quoting one below.
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established (1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, (2) till about thirty Dajjals (liars) appear, and each one of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle, (3) till the religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars) (4) earthquakes will increase in number (5) time will pass quickly, (6) afflictions will appear, (7) Al-Harj, (i.e., killing) will increase, (8) till wealth will be in abundance ---- so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say, 'I am not in need of it, (9) till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings, (10) till a man when passing by a grave of someone will say, 'Would that I were in his place (11) and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,) 'No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.158) And the Hour will be established while two men spreading a garment in front of them but they will not be able to sell it, nor fold it up; and the Hour will be established when a man has milked his she-camel and has taken away the milk but he will not be able to drink it; and the Hour will be established before a man repairing a tank (for his livestock) is able to water (his animals) in it; and the Hour will be established when a person has raised a morsel (of food) to his mouth but will not be able to eat it."
Name a prophecy of Islam that has come true. None have.

One test of a prophet is that all claims must come to pass. Islam and Mohammed fails.

Another is that what is taught must hold true to all the prophets before. Islam fails and abandons much of the OT and all the NT.

All prophets gave evidence by miracles and prophecies. Mohammed gave no prophecies.

Islam has no provable foundation. In fact, its foundation is very rejectable, as in Allah being a revised pagan Persian god who evolved over time with Islam.

Use to be taught Mohammed went to Jerusalem. But when proven he never did it became he went to Jerusalem in a vision or dream instead. Just one example of problems Islam will not face up to.

[Jupiter]

So by your faith a person will get salvation even he is a murderer, rapist, theif and yet truly belief in Jesus as his saviour.

If for example I being a christian and a man comes and kills my whole family and yet I have to belief that that person will still go to heavens without any question because he beliefs christ as his saviour. Then where is justice.

For example there is a very cruel christian ruler. Very cruel and unjust to his poor people. To whom should the poor look for justice. In your case they cannot even look at God for justice. Because God is Love. It's all love. The ruler dies and will go to heavens because He belief in Jesus as his Saviour.

I am asking where can these people look for justice........ answer me..... Don't put quotes......

[Jessie]

So by your faith a person will get salvation even he is a murderer, rapist, theif and yet truly belief in Jesus as his saviour.

If for example I being a christian and a man comes and kills my whole family and yet I have to belief that that person will still go to heavens without any question because he beliefs christ as his saviour. Then where is justice.

For example there is a very cruel christian ruler. Very cruel and unjust to his poor people. To whom should the poor look for justice. In your case they cannot even look at God for justice. Because God is Love. It's all love. The ruler dies and will go to heavens because He belief in Jesus as his Saviour.

I am asking where can these people look for justice........ answer me..... Don't put quotes......

you still dont get it.
cruel and christian dont mix. so the ruler was never christian.

[Jessie]

Try reading the rest of Matthew 5. The intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God that translates into external obedience out of love, not fear of the Law.
I read Mathew chapter 5. The meaning that I could figure out of the intent is the inner reality of ones relationship to God into external obedience out of love is that follow the law with the intention that the law is from God. verses 1 to 12 God is giving Hope to the believers. Stay stead fast in the truth and bear all the hardships that fall on you and you will be rewarded like the one before you. Verses 17 to 20 are about the fullfilment of the law. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
These verses clearly speaks the law should be followed. I have also read that Before Jesus went to the temple of Solomon Jews priest had applied the laws of the Bible but they only made the poor follow it and they themself never followed it. That is what Jesus is trying to empasize. Follow the law with the intent of love because the law is from God. If you read the last verse Righteousness is the factor to enter heavens. Who decides righteousness. Only God can. Only God and that person knows what the intentions were. How God is going to do justice with righteousness. . Who ever follows the law will be Judged according to that.


NO human can keep the Law completely. ANY transgression of the slightest known law condemns ones to Hell. You CANNOT work out your own payment for your sins. Never.

Christ, who never sinned, ever, paid for all repentents sins by paying a price for others.

Islam does not get that reality. No Muslim ever can please God out of their own efforts. Ever.

So who is more humble before God? Those who understand they are totally dependent upon Christ or those who think they can earn their own way and please God by their own efforts?
I totally agree with you. no human can keep the law completely. God has created the world in that way. There is the satan who is at his best that no one follow the laws of the God. and there is the worldly desires. Its a rough path. But what God wants is his man should try to follow His laws and commandments. Deffinenlty in the way to heaven he would stumble, slip away, and will fall but should not loose hope. He should get up and keep moving.
Islam does not get the reality I would doubt that. What you are trying to say here is not what the muslim says or believe. Muslim don't say they can please God with their own efforts and earn paradise. Allah has bestowed so many blessings upon mankind that it is impossible to payback. The smallest blessing is the air we breath without that we cannot even survive. What Allah say is we should be thankfull of his blessings that he has bestowed upon us. No one should be proud of himself or arrogant of what Allah has given him. Quran also says no soul shall be tested more than it can bear. Every soul is going to be tested according to its enviornment. How much righteousness was expected of it and how much is achieved and there are hundreds of verses in the quran and the hadiths that speaks about the glad tidings of the heavens for the believers. They are almost nearly guaranteed. It is the nature of the man that when something is guarenteed to him he would relax and stop working for it. If in a class the teacher says every one will get an A no matter what he does. Naturally harldy anyone will study because they will get an A regardless. All God wants is his man should try to follow his laws. worship the creator. Everything comes to intentions. If he is doing with true intentions no matter if he comes short he will be forgiven. All muslims ask God in their prayers to forgive them. save them from the hellfire. Prays coming from truthfull hearts are excepted in the heavens.





Yep, Christianity is fading in the world, as prophecied. Islam and other religions are growing, as prophecied. And the end of it is prophecied. All prophecied in the Bible.
There are many prophecies of Islam that have come true or are about to come true. I am only quoting one below.
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 237: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established (1) till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religious doctrine, (2) till about thirty Dajjals (liars) appear, and each one of them will claim that he is Allah's Apostle, (3) till the religious knowledge is taken away (by the death of Religious scholars) (4) earthquakes will increase in number (5) time will pass quickly, (6) afflictions will appear, (7) Al-Harj, (i.e., killing) will increase, (8) till wealth will be in abundance ---- so abundant that a wealthy person will worry lest nobody should accept his Zakat, and whenever he will present it to someone, that person (to whom it will be offered) will say, 'I am not in need of it, (9) till the people compete with one another in constructing high buildings, (10) till a man when passing by a grave of someone will say, 'Would that I were in his place (11) and till the sun rises from the West. So when the sun will rise and the people will see it (rising from the West) they will all believe (embrace Islam) but that will be the time when: (As Allah said,) 'No good will it do to a soul to believe then, if it believed not before, nor earned good (by deeds of righteousness) through its Faith.' (6.158) And the Hour will be established while two men spreading a garment in front of them but they will not be able to sell it, nor fold it up; and the Hour will be established when a man has milked his she-camel and has taken away the milk but he will not be able to drink it; and the Hour will be established before a man repairing a tank (for his livestock) is able to water (his animals) in it; and the Hour will be established when a person has raised a morsel (of food) to his mouth but will not be able to eat it."

nope you dont understand love or grace.

he who loves much has been forgiven much.

[Willy]

I am asking where can these people look for justice........ answer me..... Don't put quotes......



At the foot of the Cross.

[kay-gee]

You see Jupiter, Unlike Islam, people cannot just take the name of Christ and be a Christian. To do all in Christ name means to do by His approval and authority. A cruel leader is not acting on the teachings, approval and authority of Jesus Christ. He is by de facto, a "Christian" in name only. It is vitally important for one to understand that. One only enters Christ by a special personal relationship with him. Christianity is a relationship, where as Islam is a religion.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

So by your faith a person will get salvation even he is a murderer, rapist, theif and yet truly belief in Jesus as his saviour.

If for example I being a christian and a man comes and kills my whole family and yet I have to belief that that person will still go to heavens without any question because he beliefs christ as his saviour. Then where is justice.

For example there is a very cruel christian ruler. Very cruel and unjust to his poor people. To whom should the poor look for justice. In your case they cannot even look at God for justice. Because God is Love. It's all love. The ruler dies and will go to heavens because He belief in Jesus as his Saviour.

I am asking where can these people look for justice........ answer me..... Don't put quotes......
Well, first of all such a person would not be a Christian in fact. Just name only and there have been many, as KG said.

So a counter question is are suicide bombers and Islamics that torture and slaughter people, as you see in the news today, Muslims or not?

Plus all sin is equal before God for condemnation. But the eternal puishment one receives varies according to the nature of the sin.

Put another way, there is no distinction for condemnation, all sin is sin, but for punishment there are degrees.

Just as there are not degrees of salvation, you are either saved or not. But there are degrees of rewards.

Works earn rewards, not salvation. Salvation is by grace, rewards by work.

[a.baker]

Jupiter,
I have something maybe for you to think about for a minute. You came here questioning and wondering which means you are unsettled and not at peace. That being unspoken, but showing, shows you have doubts in the ways of your current religion. There is a higher power who is knocking on your door and that is what is driving you to question your current state and to question your god. Being blinded by pride and not listening is one of Satans favorites. A huge thing would be to read scripture and to pray to God about your confusion and what you are struggling with.

People that really know Jesus, not just claim to, have much peace and love. We repent and live accordingly to His teachings as a whole the best we can. Yes no one is perfect. Only God is perfect and Jesus not only died for our sins but He was the perfect role model of how God wants us to live.

When you talked about the bible not being a 100% true any more and the original being buried struck as heart breaking. The original paper does not exist but the original message, Word, scripture exist 100% beyond a doubt. God is all powerful and would not let any man destroy what He has made. That would have you suggesting a cruel god. The Truth is always to be found and always will be. God says so. God would not let us be blinded for years because man destroyed "the original". The original message still exists and always will for ever and ever. I am saddened to see the way Satan is blinding you with his lies.

I hope and pray for you to find Him 100%! :pray: :hug:

[a.baker]

Something I wanted to add is to read scripture in the bible about faith and the Holy Spirit.

[Jupiter]

Well, first of all such a person would not be a Christian in fact. Just name only and there have been many, as KG said.
So you agree by just believing and not acting does not get salvation....


So a counter question is are suicide bombers and Islamics that torture and slaughter people, as you see in the news today, Muslims or not?
Islam has very severe punishments for people like these who kill innocent people.
But still hope is there. He can repent. true repentess from the heart is accepted by God. But Islam also says he has to pay for the damage he has caused to the humans. If unable to do that then pray for his victims that they be forgiven of their sins and enter them to heavens....what more the victims can ask then eternal life in heavens...
also in Islam commiting suicide is a great sin and he will go to hell. when he kills innocent people with him he is only making his punishment more severe.

Plus all sin is equal before God for condemnation. But the eternal puishment one receives varies according to the nature of the sin.

Put another way, there is no distinction for condemnation, all sin is sin, but for punishment there are degrees.

Just as there are not degrees of salvation, you are either saved or not. But there are degrees of rewards.

Works earn rewards, not salvation. Salvation is by grace, rewards by work.
All sins are sins but there are degrees of sin.... killing and commiting adultery are greater sins and telling a small lie is a lesser sin. same way punishment warries...


What is the christian point of view of getting these rewards in hereafter.....

[Jupiter]

Jupiter,
I have something maybe for you to think about for a minute. You came here questioning and wondering which means you are unsettled and not at peace. That being unspoken, but showing, shows you have doubts in the ways of your current religion. There is a higher power who is knocking on your door and that is what is driving you to question your current state and to question your god. Being blinded by pride and not listening is one of Satans favorites. A huge thing would be to read scripture and to pray to God about your confusion and what you are struggling with.

People that really know Jesus, not just claim to, have much peace and love. We repent and live accordingly to His teachings as a whole the best we can. Yes no one is perfect. Only God is perfect and Jesus not only died for our sins but He was the perfect role model of how God wants us to live.

When you talked about the bible not being a 100% true any more and the original being buried struck as heart breaking. The original paper does not exist but the original message, Word, scripture exist 100% beyond a doubt. God is all powerful and would not let any man destroy what He has made. That would have you suggesting a cruel god. The Truth is always to be found and always will be. God says so. God would not let us be blinded for years because man destroyed "the original". The original message still exists and always will for ever and ever. I am saddened to see the way Satan is blinding you with his lies.

I hope and pray for you to find Him 100%! :pray: :hug:

Thankyou Brother...
Yes I pray to God above the heavens who is the Lord of the Worlds and who created every living thing to show me the true path. I also believe to believe in such a God there should be enough evidence in every aspect from religious point of way and scientific point of way. The only confusion I am having with you guys is that Jesus is God which infact in many verses of the Bible is not supported. Where Jesus truly refers to some supreme God above the heavens. not to Himself. If Jesus was God why he didnot refered it to Himself. He could have said I am God. worship me. To my reading and understanding the message of the Bible is different than what the christians beliefs are.

I have no problem in accepting christianity if it is proven it is better than Islam. It has the solution for the whole mankind. There is justice done to everyone in every way Because God is Just. And it is perfect in every way.

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;28175]
Well, first of all such a person would not be a Christian in fact. Just name only and there have been many, as KG said.
So you agree by just believing and not acting does not get salvation....

I never said that. You keep trying to make salvation earned. It is not.

One who is born-again is changed in spirit, thus in mind. The now do good works because it is natural for them to do so, not a requirement.

I posted the verses telling you works never saved anyone.

Works come from salvation, not salvation from works. You could never work your way into Heaven on your own merits.

So, Islam actually elevates Man to a higher moral stature than does Christianity.


So a counter question is are suicide bombers and Islamics that torture and slaughter people, as you see in the news today, Muslims or not?
Islam has very severe punishments for people like these who kill innocent people.

And yet they are not being punished in many nations, they are actually in control.

But still hope is there. He can repent. true repentess from the heart is accepted by God. But Islam also says he has to pay for the damage he has caused to the humans. If unable to do that then pray for his victims that they be forgiven of their sins and enter them to heavens....what more the victims can ask then eternal life in heavens...
also in Islam commiting suicide is a great sin and he will go to hell. when he kills innocent people with him he is only making his punishment more severe.

But do you see you keep looping your salvation back upon yourself? So no matter how much Muslims speak of God's grace they actually look to themselves to earn it from him.


Plus all sin is equal before God for condemnation. But the eternal puishment one receives varies according to the nature of the sin.

Put another way, there is no distinction for condemnation, all sin is sin, but for punishment there are degrees.

Just as there are not degrees of salvation, you are either saved or not. But there are degrees of rewards.

Works earn rewards, not salvation. Salvation is by grace, rewards by work.
All sins are sins but there are degrees of sin.... killing and commiting adultery are greater sins and telling a small lie is a lesser sin. same way punishment warries...

So there are degrees of salvation as well? Your demands on sin require that to be a fact.

How can one be anything but completely saved or completely lost?

Any sin, great or small, condemns. But great and small sins of the condemned earn different degrees of punishment.

There is a distinction Islam does not see.
What is the christian point of view of getting these rewards in hereafter.....
Laid out in the Bible.

Those are different rewards for different works. Those who are saved without rewardable works are described as people barely escaping a deadly fire. Those who work harder receive greater rewards, such as positions, crowns and so on.

But all are equally saved, the one barely escaping or the most greatly rewarded. No distinction between men and women in earning rewards.

[CoreIssue]

Thankyou Brother...
Yes I pray to God above the heavens who is the Lord of the Worlds and who created every living thing to show me the true path. I also believe to believe in such a God there should be enough evidence in every aspect from religious point of way and scientific point of way.
Agree. Christianity succeeds in the scholarly and other tests, Islam does not.
The only confusion I am having with you guys is that Jesus is God which infact in many verses of the Bible is not supported.
What you are failing to see is that God set aside his divine rights and powers to live as a human man. That was needed to be able to pay the human price for sin.

So, when he is questioned and speaking in human terms, his words will be fully human.

When speaking as God incarnate, he states he is God.

He is fully human in his flesh, fully God in his spirit and both in his mind. So he is God, he is man and he is both, at the same time.

He most assuredly called himself the I AM who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The Jews wanted to kill him for saying that.

He said to see him was to see the Father. No mere man could say that.

He sits on the Throne of God in Heaven as God but also stands before the Father as High Priest, the role of a human.

He is God and also King of Israel via the lineage of David.

He is both man and God.
Where Jesus truly refers to some supreme God above the heavens. not to Himself. If Jesus was God why he didnot refered it to Himself. He could have said I am God. worship me. To my reading and understanding the message of the Bible is different than what the christians beliefs are.

Why do you disregard the verse and statements posted about his divinity? You only allow yourself to see the Islamic claim he is not God incarnate.

John 1 TELLS you he is God incarnate. Baptism is in the name of God, being Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Elohim in the Hebrew uniplural usage means 3 personages composing a singular God. He was called Lord and God, he received worship from humans and angels and much more declaring his Godhood.
I have no problem in accepting christianity if it is proven it is better than Islam. It has the solution for the whole mankind. There is justice done to everyone in every way Because God is Just. And it is perfect in every way.
God demands payment for sin. Christ is that payment in Christianity and the Bible.

There is no payment for sin in Islam. More a a weighing of good versus bad to see which wins out, the ancient pagan approach by such as the Egyptians.

Which deals out justice, the God of Islam or Christianity?

[Jupiter]

Core Issue you are still confusing me. You said..

"I never said that. You keep trying to make salvation earned. It is not.

One who is born-again is changed in spirit, thus in mind. The now do good works because it is natural for them to do so, not a requirement."

You said not a requirement. in other way you are saying that the person will still get salvation regardless he is commiting all those sins and crimes.

[CoreIssue]

Core Issue you are still confusing me. You said..

"I never said that. You keep trying to make salvation earned. It is not.

One who is born-again is changed in spirit, thus in mind. The now do good works because it is natural for them to do so, not a requirement."

You said not a requirement. in other way you are saying that the person will still get salvation regardless he is commiting all those sins and crimes.
I don't mean to confuse. Islamic thinking is what is confusing you.

Salvation is not something works toward. It is gained instantly, upon repentence, before a single good work is done.

If a person repents upon their death bed, they are saved. They enter Heaven as a man barely escaping a deadly fire.

You don't 'will get,' You already got it upon repentence.

It is by grace, meaning a gift. You do not earn or pay for a gift. It is given without cost. That is what grace means.

Islam speaks of grace but always linked to coming to those who work. So it isn't a real gift, it is a payment, which is not grace.

You, I and everyone else sin and will sin until we die. A lie, evil thought and tons of other things is sin. You do not have to act to sin, you only have to desire to sin about something.

Islam does not understand that. It confuses meanings.

God loves us but is just. He demands payment out of justice. But he is also merciful out of love.

Christ reconciled justice with mercy. His life was taken unjustly at his allowance in place of our just death for our sins. His unjust death paid for our just death but death could not hold him because he was sinless.

Islam says you can please God enough to earn your salvation. That elevates Man and lowers God.

[a.baker]

Jupiter, to help me better understand the detail of where you are coming from I have a question. Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ? I am not sure maybe I missed that in a previous reply. It also sounds to me like a lot of where you are coming from about sinning is coming out of 1 John 3? So you do know the new testament well? Also the next scripture to read after that (1John 3:11-24) titled: Love One Another (in the NIV version) is most uplifting too. Well it all is! Every time I read the same scripture again I feel over filled with His peace,grace and joy :D ! It is so wonderful to have a family in Jesus!! :yowza: I just get so energized thinking of Jesus; life through God is knowing Jesus. So much proof in history that points to Jesus as being the Messiah. Scripture from the old testament line right up with Jesus in the new testament.

[Jupiter]

Core Issue you are still confusing me. You said..

"I never said that. You keep trying to make salvation earned. It is not.

One who is born-again is changed in spirit, thus in mind. The now do good works because it is natural for them to do so, not a requirement."

You said not a requirement. in other way you are saying that the person will still get salvation regardless he is commiting all those sins and crimes.
I don't mean to confuse. Islamic thinking is what is confusing you.

Salvation is not something works toward. It is gained instantly, upon repentence, before a single good work is done.

If a person repents upon their death bed, they are saved. They enter Heaven as a man barely escaping a deadly fire.

You don't 'will get,' You already got it upon repentence.

It is by grace, meaning a gift. You do not earn or pay for a gift. It is given without cost. That is what grace means.

Islam speaks of grace but always linked to coming to those who work. So it isn't a real gift, it is a payment, which is not grace.

You, I and everyone else sin and will sin until we die. A lie, evil thought and tons of other things is sin. You do not have to act to sin, you only have to desire to sin about something.

Islam does not understand that. It confuses meanings.

God loves us but is just. He demands payment out of justice. But he is also merciful out of love.

Christ reconciled justice with mercy. His life was taken unjustly at his allowance in place of our just death for our sins. His unjust death paid for our just death but death could not hold him because he was sinless.

Islam says you can please God enough to earn your salvation. That elevates Man and lowers God.

My question is still going unanswered. The true faith the true religion should be able to face and be able to answer all the questions. It should be able to

face the reality. All my life I have been taught and have read that God is the most merciful. the most gracious, But with all that characteristics God is very

Just. If we are unable to get Justice in this world we leave the matter in the hands of the God. we believe God is very just. we will get justice in the

hereafter. God is so mercifull that a person came to the prophet Muhammad and ask him if one commits a sin what should he do. Prophet said he should

repent sincerly and Allah will forgive him. The person asked again if after a while he is tempted and does it again. Prophet said he should repent sincerly and

Allah will forgive him. The person asked again the same thing and Prophet said the person will get tired of repenting But Allah will not get tired of forgiving.

God is just yes he is. IF one has taken a loan from some one and does not pays back even if he is able to and also have the intent not to payback. Yes

Islam says he will be punished for that. On the day of Judgment the victim will come and will take his good deeds equal to the money he have not payed

back. We see justice here. This is just one aspect. Islam also says if the person who has taken loan and is poor and is not able to pay back but have the

intention to pay back, the loaner should give him more time and shall not burden him and if he forgives him that is better for the loaner for that act he would

be rewarded in the hereafter. You see there is mercy, justice and forgivness. you get answers in every way.


My question. If God is Just as you say..

You say salvation is gained. If a person believes in Jesus as his saviour he gets salvation.

You said "It is gained instantly, upon repentence, before a single good work is done."

Repentence is done once when he believes. Ok But life is still going. The person believes in Jesus as his saviour and on the same hand he commiting all the

grave sins that I have said earlier in my post. You see every person is not at the same level. Every person has different thinking level. Will that person

believing in Jesus as his saviour still commiting sins like murder, rape, fornication and fraud will he be saved or not. Will he be questionable on the day of

judgement or not. How will the people get justice who were unable to get justice in this world. How will justice be done with him. Is he going to heaven or

hell.
Please answer my question to the point.

[a.baker]

Yes God is just and we should be at peace with His judgment and are. Yes repent; of course live His Word to the fullest. That doesn't mean you won't mess up from time to time. Will God forgive one if they do the sinful act thinking at the same time He will forgive them? I would say no because that makes one double minded and scripture states that a double minded person cannot be trusted and won't receive. If one is clear headed of the sin they are committing while they are committing it I would say no He won't forgive that. But I am not God so I cannot speak for Him. His grace is huge but we cannot take advantage of that.

[Jessie]

Core Issue you are still confusing me. You said..

"I never said that. You keep trying to make salvation earned. It is not.

One who is born-again is changed in spirit, thus in mind. The now do good works because it is natural for them to do so, not a requirement."

You said not a requirement. in other way you are saying that the person will still get salvation regardless he is commiting all those sins and crimes.
I don't mean to confuse. Islamic thinking is what is confusing you.

Salvation is not something works toward. It is gained instantly, upon repentence, before a single good work is done.

If a person repents upon their death bed, they are saved. They enter Heaven as a man barely escaping a deadly fire.

You don't 'will get,' You already got it upon repentence.

It is by grace, meaning a gift. You do not earn or pay for a gift. It is given without cost. That is what grace means.

Islam speaks of grace but always linked to coming to those who work. So it isn't a real gift, it is a payment, which is not grace.

You, I and everyone else sin and will sin until we die. A lie, evil thought and tons of other things is sin. You do not have to act to sin, you only have to desire to sin about something.

Islam does not understand that. It confuses meanings.

God loves us but is just. He demands payment out of justice. But he is also merciful out of love.

Christ reconciled justice with mercy. His life was taken unjustly at his allowance in place of our just death for our sins. His unjust death paid for our just death but death could not hold him because he was sinless.

Islam says you can please God enough to earn your salvation. That elevates Man and lowers God.

My question is still going unanswered. The true faith the true religion should be able to face and be able to answer all the questions. It should be able to

face the reality. All my life I have been taught and have read that God is the most merciful. the most gracious, But with all that characteristics God is very

Just. If we are unable to get Justice in this world we leave the matter in the hands of the God. we believe God is very just. we will get justice in the

hereafter. God is so mercifull that a person came to the prophet Muhammad and ask him if one commits a sin what should he do. Prophet said he should

repent sincerly and Allah will forgive him. The person asked again if after a while he is tempted and does it again. Prophet said he should repent sincerly and

Allah will forgive him. The person asked again the same thing and Prophet said the person will get tired of repenting But Allah will not get tired of forgiving.

God is just yes he is. IF one has taken a loan from some one and does not pays back even if he is able to and also have the intent not to payback. Yes

Islam says he will be punished for that. On the day of Judgment the victim will come and will take his good deeds equal to the money he have not payed

back. We see justice here. This is just one aspect. Islam also says if the person who has taken loan and is poor and is not able to pay back but have the

intention to pay back, the loaner should give him more time and shall not burden him and if he forgives him that is better for the loaner for that act he would

be rewarded in the hereafter. You see there is mercy, justice and forgivness. you get answers in every way.


My question. If God is Just as you say..

You say salvation is gained. If a person believes in Jesus as his saviour he gets salvation.

You said "It is gained instantly, upon repentence, before a single good work is done."

Repentence is done once when he believes. Ok But life is still going. The person believes in Jesus as his saviour and on the same hand he commiting all the

grave sins that I have said earlier in my post. You see every person is not at the same level. Every person has different thinking level. Will that person

believing in Jesus as his saviour still commiting sins like murder, rape, fornication and fraud will he be saved or not. Will he be questionable on the day of

judgement or not. How will the people get justice who were unable to get justice in this world. How will justice be done with him. Is he going to heaven or

hell.
Please answer my question to the point.

everyone is evil. everyone. Jesus paid the price of sin for everyone.
one when accepting Jesus as savior is now in the process of sanctification.

do they pay for their sin. God chastises every one who is his. one grows.
there is diciplining. Gods eyes are not closed.

one reaps what they sow.

with islam, I've seen nothing but cruelty which the posts from Core you have not even attempted to address. yet you say blessings ect. where? for men only?
even at that I've seen fear of other men and cruelty for men.

you see if everyone got what they "deserved" everyone would be going to hell.

one can not earn their way to heaven, most have NO idea that when scripture says our good deeds are like filthy rags in his sight just how holy and pure He is.

I see no forgiveness in allah, either convert or die.
fighting, stife, death.

[InTheWind]

In my opinion Jupiter what your missing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which can only be obtained by accepting Christ for who He is and that He paid the price for our sin.
Only after you are born again will you fully understand what the Bible says because the Holy Spirit will guide and minister too you.
That same Holy spirit will convict you of your sin and you will repent and change, see you become a different person when you are filled with the spirit.
As Jesus plainly said, I am the only way too the Father, It`s a spiritual action not a physical reaction

[Jupiter]

everyone is evil. everyone. Jesus paid the price of sin for everyone.
one when accepting Jesus as savior is now in the process of sanctification.

I am not getting the concept why every one is evil. Why the child who just took birth

has sinned. Why God is so cruel in the first place to put the Sin of another man on that

child. Jesus which the christians say the son of God is still a humanbeing. Like you and

me. Why he was put to death of a sin done by others. Which God is cruel. IF that child

dies as an infant so this means he died in a sin. where that child is going to heaven or

hell.


with islam, I've seen nothing but cruelty which the posts from Core you have not even attempted to address. yet you say blessings ect. where? for men only?
even at that I've seen fear of other men and cruelty for men.


you see if everyone got what they "deserved" everyone would be going to hell.

one can not earn their way to heaven, most have NO idea that when scripture says our good deeds are like filthy rags in his sight just how holy and pure He is.

I see no forgiveness in allah, either convert or die.
fighting, stife, death.
Which Question I have not addressed. The Islamic laws I Have been talking about are same for both men and women.

As a muslim perspective

In islam we believe that amongst the infinite qualities and attributes of God almighty, one of them is that he is the most/often forgiving and merciful and that his judgement is perfect, total justice. So when it comes to sins, everyone will have to give explanation for their own deeds, what they did and on judgement day the deeds will be put in front of each person so they will witness the truth, something which they wont be able to deny. So putting these 2 points togather, we believe everyone is accountable and responsible for their own sins not jesus christ or any other person. And to be saved' or forgiven for our sins, we simply turn and make repentance, thus exerts his quality of being the most/often forgiving. Some may argue saying, you cant ask god directly because were too sinful. Well we dont believe this, quite the opposite, god almighty says even if your sins were to reach the sky/heaven or to fill the entire earth, i return it will equal forgiveness, god almighty loves that his servents turn to him and remember him, but the condition is that we seek forgiveness only from him and no other associates/partners. So in summary, god is the most just and will never punish someone else for sins they never commited, as the saying goes.. if u done the crime, u gotta do the time.

Is it true to say that the god of islam will just overlook sin in a muslims life. He does not require justice, he shows mercy?

The justice of god almighty extends not just to muslims, but to entire mankind, the justice of god almighty is so vast that on judgement day, he will also exert justice even over the animals of our world. So if his justice covers whole of animal kingdom, then imagine how justice will be done on Mankind. Muslims will also be judged accordingly on that day based on our deeds just like the non-muslims, god's justice is universal. This is why the last and final prophet warned us soo much about the day of judgement, and also the quran does aswell, a day where the people will be in regret, saddness, terrified, because each human will have to face up to what they did. Even the prophets will be judged, we know in reality they will go to paradise, but the fact that they will be judged.. god is showing ALL people, muslims, jews, christains, athesits, on that day total justice will be done.

On a more cheerful note to save ourselves from regret on that day, god has given us 2 sources, the quran which is the final testiment and prophet muhammad, the final prophet. From the islamic perspective we don’t believe Jesus came with Christianity or Moses came with Judaism, or Muhammad came with Mohammedism, we believe they all came with the same religion, yes their laws differed but their message was the same.

If you think Islam does not give Woman equal rights which is a total lie. There is a small Hadith of Prophet Muhammad saying A man whose woman of his house are not happy of him who is being unjust and cruel to the woman will not enter heavens.
This is only one of thousands of Hadiths raising the status of woman in Islam.

[CoreIssue]

everyone is evil. everyone. Jesus paid the price of sin for everyone.
one when accepting Jesus as savior is now in the process of sanctification.
I am not getting the concept why every one is evil.
Because Adam sinned and we are all born with sin natures.

If you can look at the world and not see that reality, I have no idea how you define evil.

Why the child who just took birth

has sinned.

Not sinned. Born with sin nature.

No one is accountable for sin until they know it is sin.

Why God is so cruel in the first place to put the Sin of another man on that

child.

Freewill choice put sin on us. Freewill repentence will allow Christ to remove it.

Are you saying it isn't true we are born with sin natures or that you don't understand why?

Jesus which the christians say the son of God is still a humanbeing. Like you and

me. Why he was put to death of a sin done by others.

Because of justice and love. Both are served.

Which God is cruel. IF that child

dies as an infant so this means he died in a sin. where that child is going to heaven or

hell.

No. The infant did not die a sinner, but an innocent, so it goes to Heaven.
In islam we believe that amongst the infinite qualities and attributes of God almighty, one of them is that he is the most/often forgiving and merciful and that his judgement is perfect, total justice. So when it comes to sins, everyone will have to give explanation for their own deeds, what they did and on judgement day the deeds will be put in front of each person so they will witness the truth, something which they wont be able to deny. So putting these 2 points togather, we believe everyone is accountable and responsible for their own sins not jesus christ or any other person. And to be saved' or forgiven for our sins, we simply turn and make repentance, thus exerts his quality of being the most/often forgiving.
That is not true. Islam says God requires works to be saved, so it is not being forgiving, it is either a roll of the dice or weighing the good and the bad one has done to see which wins out.

Don't plead grace when it is not free. A price is required in Islam.
Some may argue saying, you cant ask god directly because were too sinful.
Christians don't believe that.

Well we dont believe this, quite the opposite, god almighty says even if your sins were to reach the sky/heaven or to fill the entire earth, i return it will equal forgiveness, god almighty loves that his servents turn to him and remember him, but the condition is that we seek forgiveness only from him and no other associates/partners. So in summary, god is the most just and will never punish someone else for sins they never commited, as the saying goes.. if u done the crime, u gotta do the time.

As long as you believe in the Islamic Allah and hold true to his teachings. You didn't state the full requirement of works.

Is it true to say that the god of islam will just overlook sin in a muslims life. He does not require justice, he shows mercy?

The justice of god almighty extends not just to muslims, but to entire mankind, the justice of god almighty is so vast that on judgement day, he will also exert justice even over the animals of our world. So if his justice covers whole of animal kingdom, then imagine how justice will be done on Mankind. Muslims will also be judged accordingly on that day based on our deeds just like the non-muslims, god's justice is universal. This is why the last and final prophet warned us soo much about the day of judgement, and also the quran does aswell, a day where the people will be in regret, saddness, terrified, because each human will have to face up to what they did. Even the prophets will be judged, we know in reality they will go to paradise, but the fact that they will be judged.. god is showing ALL people, muslims, jews, christains, athesits, on that day total justice will be done.

But only believers in Islam will make it to Paradise. Justice for the rest is to perish.

So, again, works are required. Not just belief in the the true God and repentence with the price paid on our behalf.
On a more cheerful note to save ourselves from regret on that day, god has given us 2 sources, the quran which is the final testiment and prophet muhammad, the final prophet.
Which trashes the revelations and prophets that came before by editing out most of their words and changing meanings.

From the islamic perspective we don’t believe Jesus came with Christianity or Moses came with Judaism, or Muhammad came with Mohammedism, we believe they all came with the same religion, yes their laws differed but their message was the same.

But you believe only Islam kept it pure and true.


If you think Islam does not give Woman equal rights which is a total lie. There is a small Hadith of Prophet Muhammad saying A man whose woman of his house are not happy of him who is being unjust and cruel to the woman will not enter heavens.

And which gives the man soul power of divorce, the right to beat his wife and so forth.
This is only one of thousands of Hadiths raising the status of woman in Islam.
And how much of Islam adheres to your claims here? Almost none.

[a.baker]

Jupiter, What justice is there in slashing a woman as punishment because she was raped and not with a brother? These are things we hear about all the time happening.

[a.baker]

Jupiter, A personal question of what you think; Who do you think the Christ is? One that has already existed or one yet to come? Now with what you believe does it line up with the rest of your religion or is it all split up into different groups but yet all the groups claim the same? I am just curious.

[roman8]

Jupiter, Im not sure if this will be of any use to you but I will tell you anyway.

Igrew up in a home like most NorthAmericans now, being taught and believing "Evolution" it was taught as truth and you just didnt question teachers and Science. When I started searching and really taking a look at the evidence ,I was blown away at what a lie I had been taught and belived .:swoon: There is more to it than that , but I will keep it short .

I also took a look at other religions , had a friend who was a Buddist , so I checked that one out too.

When I had looked at all kinds of evidence for Christianity , The truth is I was terrified, for alot of different reasons . My point is I could have gone on beiliving everything I had been taught , by people I trusted .

Dont be afraid to dig deeper , to question , to look at the facts

[Jupiter]

Because Adam sinned and we are all born with sin natures.
No one is accountable for sin until they know it is sin.
The nature of man mostly depend upon the enviorment he is living in. Now you are talking about sin nature which has not thing to so with the original sin. How the sin nature turns into original sin which only started as sin nature. Please clear the concept.


Freewill choice put sin on us. Freewill repentence will allow Christ to remove it.

Are you saying it isn't true we are born with sin natures or that you don't understand why?

To believe something like that one need proof. Evidence. If the original sin was one of the criteria of salvation how come it is not mentioned in the OT. Why don't the jews believe in that. Why God had to change his plans.

Because of justice and love. Both are served.

I only see love served but can't see justice.


Is it true to say that the god of islam will just overlook sin in a muslims life. He does not require justice, he shows mercy?


I never said that. The Quran gives us the minnimum criteria of going to heavens. Its a small chapter of only Three verses. Chapter 103.
By (the Token of) time (through the Ages), (1) Verily Man is in loss, (2) Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. (3)

This is the minnimum criteria for going to Heavens .1 Right Faith. Which is God is one without any partners. Believe in all the Prophets, Angels, Divine Revelations. Believing every thing which the quran says. 2. Good Deeds. 3.spread the message .4. and show patience.

[Jupiter]

Jupiter, A personal question of what you think; Who do you think the Christ is? One that has already existed or one yet to come? Now with what you believe does it line up with the rest of your religion or is it all split up into different groups but yet all the groups claim the same? I am just curious.

As a muslim I have been believing what the Quran had to tell me. In Islam I have to believe what the Quran tells me. even if I Disbelieve one thing I am not a muslim. So Quran tells me Mary was one of the righteous. I believe that. Quran tells me she was a virgin. I believe that. Quran tells me Jesus was son of Mary and was born of Virgin Mary without any male intervention. It was one of the miracles of God Almighty that He can do Anything. I believe that.

What I don't believe is Jesus is God. or Son of God. I read the Bible and that also put me in confusion. well Jesus never claimed to be God. Many verses truly speaks he is not God. If that is such an important part of faith then message cannot be in parables.

I believe that Jesus was send to put the Children of Israel on the right course. Now in Islam there are more than 70 authentic sayings of the Prophet Muhammad that confirms the second coming of Jesus. That he will come and kill the anti christ. As a muslim I also have to believe that.

Now while reading this question another thing came to my mind.

Can a person be a christian if he does not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.

I know a muslim canot be a muslim.

[Jessie]

these show you have not been quit honest..

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

[a.baker]

Well of course Mary was a virgin. That is what scripture states. You know people that claim otherwise? If so than they haven't read the bible.

[a.baker]

Thank for finding that Jessie!

[Jupiter]

these show you have not been quit honest..

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

I think I am being Honest here. You guys are not answering my questions. Simply answer yes or no Can a person be a christian can he be saved by only believing Jesus as his saviour but yet he denies the virgin birth of Jesus. even though he have read that in the bible..



I read the link and even verified that in the Quran and can easily tell they are taken out of context. Many of them are related to war times. what should be done when you are at war.

You are being not Honest. you are posting something that you have not yourself verified if it is correct or not.

The very first example in of the Quran in the link is
Sura (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Now it is telling surah or chapter 2 verses 191 to 193. infact the verse quoted is only partial of verse 191.

I am quoting chapter 2 verse 190-193 which gives the meaning.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

Quran is not telling muslims to start but only if they start you fight them. if they desist or cease then Allah is all mericful and forgiving. and we shall not fight them.

[Jupiter]

these show you have not been quit honest..

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

I think I am being Honest here. You guys are not answering my questions. Simply answer yes or no Can a person be a christian can he be saved by only believing Jesus as his saviour but yet he denies the virgin birth of Jesus. even though he have read that in the bible..



I read the link and even verified that in the Quran and can easily tell that they are taken out of context. Many of them are related to war times. what should be done when you are at war.

Jessie You are being not Honest. you are posting something that you have not yourself verified if it is correct or not.

The very first example of the Quran in the link is
Sura (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Now it is telling surah or chapter 2 verses 191 to 193. infact the verse quoted is only partial of verse 191.

I am quoting chapter 2 verse 190-193 which gives the meaning.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

Quran is not telling muslims to start but only if they start you fight them. if they desist or cease then Allah is all mericful and forgiving. and we shall not fight them.

[CoreIssue]

these show you have not been quit honest..

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

I think I am being Honest here. You guys are not answering my questions.
I have answered all you asked me. Obviously you don't understand some answers or don't like some.

Simply answer yes or no Can a person be a christian can he be saved by only believing Jesus as his saviour but yet he denies the virgin birth of Jesus. even though he have read that in the bible..

No. The alternative to virgin birth is Jesus was a normal human born to human intercourse, which mean he has a sin nature inherited from his father. It would also mean there is no Father in Heaven because Jesus male side was not created due to him, but a human father.

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;28223]
Because Adam sinned and we are all born with sin natures.
No one is accountable for sin until they know it is sin.
The nature of man mostly depend upon the enviorment he is living in. Now you are talking about sin nature which has not thing to so with the original sin. How the sin nature turns into original sin which only started as sin nature. Please clear the concept.

Where did I ever bring up the idea of original sin?

Original sin was Satan rebelling against God. In turn he led Eve into sin who led Adam into sin. Like produces like, meaning sin nature produces sin nature.

Perfection was lost when they sinned. Imperfection cannot produce perfection, so all born from Adam and Eve are imperfect.

All one has to do is look at the world around them to see the reality no one is born without sin nature. Babies, infants and such clearly show they are born with selfish natures, which has nothing to do with environment. All born into any culture and such in the world share this common reality.

To say people are not born without sin nature is to either not recognize sin nature or to redefine evil as good.


Freewill choice put sin on us. Freewill repentence will allow Christ to remove it.

Are you saying it isn't true we are born with sin natures or that you don't understand why?

To believe something like that one need proof. Evidence. If the original sin was one of the criteria of salvation how come it is not mentioned in the OT. Why don't the jews believe in that. Why God had to change his plans.

When did I ever use the phrase original sin? I didn't.

And where did you ever get Jews didn't believe in sin nature? What do you think the Atonement Sacrifice was all about?

Because of justice and love. Both are served.

I only see love served but can't see justice.


Is it true to say that the god of islam will just overlook sin in a muslims life. He does not require justice, he shows mercy?


I never said that. The Quran gives us the minnimum criteria of going to heavens. Its a small chapter of only Three verses. Chapter 103.
By (the Token of) time (through the Ages), (1) Verily Man is in loss, (2) Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy. (3)

This is the minnimum criteria for going to Heavens .1 Right Faith. Which is God is one without any partners. Believe in all the Prophets, Angels, Divine Revelations. Believing every thing which the quran says. 2. Good Deeds. 3.spread the message .4. and show patience.
You just defined salvation by works.

[CoreIssue]

I read the link and even verified that in the Quran and can easily tell that they are taken out of context. Many of them are related to war times. what should be done when you are at war.

Jessie You are being not Honest. you are posting something that you have not yourself verified if it is correct or not.

The very first example of the Quran in the link is
Sura (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Now it is telling surah or chapter 2 verses 191 to 193. infact the verse quoted is only partial of verse 191.

I am quoting chapter 2 verse 190-193 which gives the meaning.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (190) And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (191) But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (192) And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

Quran is not telling muslims to start but only if they start you fight them. if they desist or cease then Allah is all mericful and forgiving. and we shall not fight them.
Hmmm. Surah 9 does not hold up to this claim.

It says with Pagans with whom you have a treaty that have not worked against you, have upheld their part of the deal and such do not touch them until the treaty expires, then kill them.

Nope. Not at war with them, they have not betrayed their trust or any such thing. But still kill them because they are not Muslim.

Surah 9 (http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp)

[Jessie]

again death. decieptful and cruel.

where are those mercies in that?

this is no different than the inquistion, forcing others to be RCC.

not real. not a real change.

[Jupiter]

Hmmm. Surah 9 does not hold up to this claim.

It says with Pagans with whom you have a treaty that have not worked against you, have upheld their part of the deal and such do not touch them until the treaty expires, then kill them.

Nope. Not at war with them, they have not betrayed their trust or any such thing. But still kill them because they are not Muslim.

Surah 9 (http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp)

then i can say you have not read the surah 9. the context of the passage is not when the treaty expires kill the pagans. muslims had a peace treaty with pagans of makkah. they broke the treaty and were at war against the muslims. it is in that context you should kill the enimies where ever you find them in the battlefiled. IF you have read the very next verse 6 it says if they come to you for asylum don't just let them go escort them to the place of security so that they may get the truth.

I found this video on you tube which has the answer too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4Ko3ixFQ7E

[Jupiter]

again death. decieptful and cruel.

where are those mercies in that?

this is no different than the inquistion, forcing others to be RCC.

not real. not a real change.

Jessie Then tell me what is the punishment of blashpemy according to your Bible.

[Jupiter]

No. The alternative to virgin birth is Jesus was a normal human born to human intercourse, which mean he has a sin nature inherited from his father. It would also mean there is no Father in Heaven because Jesus male side was not created due to him, but a human father.

So you say for means of salvation christians also have to believe in Virgin birth of Jesus too.

[Jupiter]

Really? Been used from Mohammed on. The sign of the Persia god Allah.



You have been Trying to prove that Allah is a word that refer to some other God. I did some research on that. Like a car in french is called voiture and in english it is called a car. Same way Allah is only a word equal to God in English. infact it is a better word than the english word God. In arabic Allah does not have any plurals of gender. like the english word God. or goddess. He God or She God.

According to my research the first arabic translation of the bible was written in 867 AD way before the first hand written english bible in 1380AD by John Wycliff. In that arabic translation of the bible the word Allah is used.

According to Islamic point of view The Quran tells us that there is no one particular name for GOD. We can call him by any names as long the word is not contaminated and full fill the criteria. In the Quran ninty names are attributed to God. like the most merciful, most gracious.

[CoreIssue]

Hmmm. Surah 9 does not hold up to this claim.

It says with Pagans with whom you have a treaty that have not worked against you, have upheld their part of the deal and such do not touch them until the treaty expires, then kill them.

Nope. Not at war with them, they have not betrayed their trust or any such thing. But still kill them because they are not Muslim.

Surah 9 (http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp)

then i can say you have not read the surah 9. the context of the passage is not when the treaty expires kill the pagans. muslims had a peace treaty with pagans of makkah. they broke the treaty and were at war against the muslims. it is in that context you should kill the enimies where ever you find them in the battlefiled. IF you have read the very next verse 6 it says if they come to you for asylum don't just let them go escort them to the place of security so that they may get the truth.

I found this video on you tube which has the answer too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4Ko3ixFQ7E
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:- Baraatun mina Allahiwarasoolihi ila allatheena AAahadtum minaalmushrikeena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_1.gif9:2Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. Faseehoo fee al-ardi arbaAAataashhurin waiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahiwaanna Allaha mukhzee alkafireena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_2.gif9:3And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. Waathanun mina Allahiwarasoolihi ila alnnasi yawma alhajjial-akbari anna Allaha baree-on mina almushrikeenawarasooluhu fa-in tubtum fahuwa khayrun lakum wa-in tawallaytumfaiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahiwabashshiri allatheena kafaroo biAAathabin aleemin http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_3.gif9:4(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. Illa allatheena AAahadtummina almushrikeena thumma lam yanqusookum shay-an walam yuthahirooAAalaykum ahadan faatimmoo ilayhim AAahdahum ilamuddatihim inna Allaha yuhibbu almuttaqeena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_4.gif9:5But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_5.gif9:6If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
Read 4. It says they have not attacked Muslims. Their crime is not becoming Muslims.

5 says keep the treaty until it expires, then kill them.

Nothing about them being at war with Muslims.

6 says grant them asylum IF they convert.

[Jessie]

again death. decieptful and cruel.

where are those mercies in that?

this is no different than the inquistion, forcing others to be RCC.

not real. not a real change.

Jessie Then tell me what is the punishment of blashpemy according to your Bible.

what is your point? you have bounced around with queston after question but never really understanding any of the answers you have been given.

[Jupiter]

again death. decieptful and cruel.

where are those mercies in that?

this is no different than the inquistion, forcing others to be RCC.

not real. not a real change.

Jessie Then tell me what is the punishment of blashpemy according to your Bible.

what is your point? you have bounced around with queston after question but never really understanding any of the answers you have been given.

my point is that mercy doesnot means we can disregard justice. you say christianity is the most merciful religion and just too. Jesus died for our sins so every one is saved. I am asking where is justice for the people who have suffered pain and cruelty from other christians. How is you God is going to do equal justice.

[Jupiter]

Hmmm. Surah 9 does not hold up to this claim.

It says with Pagans with whom you have a treaty that have not worked against you, have upheld their part of the deal and such do not touch them until the treaty expires, then kill them.

Nope. Not at war with them, they have not betrayed their trust or any such thing. But still kill them because they are not Muslim.

Surah 9 (http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp)

then i can say you have not read the surah 9. the context of the passage is not when the treaty expires kill the pagans. muslims had a peace treaty with pagans of makkah. they broke the treaty and were at war against the muslims. it is in that context you should kill the enimies where ever you find them in the battlefiled. IF you have read the very next verse 6 it says if they come to you for asylum don't just let them go escort them to the place of security so that they may get the truth.

I found this video on you tube which has the answer too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4Ko3ixFQ7E
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:- Baraatun mina Allahiwarasoolihi ila allatheena AAahadtum minaalmushrikeena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_1.gif9:2Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. Faseehoo fee al-ardi arbaAAataashhurin waiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahiwaanna Allaha mukhzee alkafireena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_2.gif9:3And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. Waathanun mina Allahiwarasoolihi ila alnnasi yawma alhajjial-akbari anna Allaha baree-on mina almushrikeenawarasooluhu fa-in tubtum fahuwa khayrun lakum wa-in tawallaytumfaiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahiwabashshiri allatheena kafaroo biAAathabin aleemin http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_3.gif9:4(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. Illa allatheena AAahadtummina almushrikeena thumma lam yanqusookum shay-an walam yuthahirooAAalaykum ahadan faatimmoo ilayhim AAahdahum ilamuddatihim inna Allaha yuhibbu almuttaqeena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_4.gif9:5But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_5.gif9:6If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
Read 4. It says they have not attacked Muslims. Their crime is not becoming Muslims.

5 says keep the treaty until it expires, then kill them.

Nothing about them being at war with Muslims.

6 says grant them asylum IF they convert.

If you only have done a little more research you would have know the reason why these verses are revealed. Hadiths tells us that Prophet Muhammad went for pilgrimage from madinah to Makkah with a huge number of muslims with him. When they reach Makkah the pagans of makkah didnot let them in. infact they signed a peace treaty with the prophet called Sulah Hudaibiya. which some of the companions doubted because they could have easily overtook makkah. But later some of the pagans of makkah started breaking the rules of the treaty. The pagans were aiding other enimies of Islam in the war which was an open violation of the treaty. Thats why the quran is telling us not go on war untill the treaty is still intact. if you read the translation that you have quoted you would see the translator have quoted (every stratagem (of war); ) meaning the arabic context is reffering to war.

The pagans of makkah have already attacked the muslims of madinah three times the battle of badr, uhud and the battle of Khanduq(ditch). Still The Prophet (peace be upon him) signed the peace treaty with the pagans when the muslims were much stronger than the pagans. It was only done to avoid bloodshed. Later when Muslims conquered Makkah no bloodshed occur because the pagans surrendered and every one was forgiven of its past doing.

[CoreIssue]

my point is that mercy doesnot means we can disregard justice. you say christianity is the most merciful religion and just too. Jesus died for our sins so every one is saved. I am asking where is justice for the people who have suffered pain and cruelty from other christians. How is you God is going to do equal justice.

There are earthly judgments and eternal judgments.

Those who repent have their sins paid for via Jesus for eternity. Those who do not will be punished for all their sins.

On the earthly side of the coin, it isn't the Church's place to impose secular punishment. Unlike Islam, we do not put secular government under Church control.

We live in a world of many religions. Blasphemy changes in definition from one to another, so secular government leaves such to each religion.

In the Church we would kick out from our congregations those who commit blasphemy and will not repent. We don't kill them.

[CoreIssue]

Hmmm. Surah 9 does not hold up to this claim.

It says with Pagans with whom you have a treaty that have not worked against you, have upheld their part of the deal and such do not touch them until the treaty expires, then kill them.

Nope. Not at war with them, they have not betrayed their trust or any such thing. But still kill them because they are not Muslim.

Surah 9 (http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp)

then i can say you have not read the surah 9. the context of the passage is not when the treaty expires kill the pagans. muslims had a peace treaty with pagans of makkah. they broke the treaty and were at war against the muslims. it is in that context you should kill the enimies where ever you find them in the battlefiled. IF you have read the very next verse 6 it says if they come to you for asylum don't just let them go escort them to the place of security so that they may get the truth.

I found this video on you tube which has the answer too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4Ko3ixFQ7E
A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:- Baraatun mina Allahiwarasoolihi ila allatheena AAahadtum minaalmushrikeena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_1.gif9:2Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. Faseehoo fee al-ardi arbaAAataashhurin waiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahiwaanna Allaha mukhzee alkafireena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_2.gif9:3And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. Waathanun mina Allahiwarasoolihi ila alnnasi yawma alhajjial-akbari anna Allaha baree-on mina almushrikeenawarasooluhu fa-in tubtum fahuwa khayrun lakum wa-in tawallaytumfaiAAlamoo annakum ghayru muAAjizee Allahiwabashshiri allatheena kafaroo biAAathabin aleemin http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_3.gif9:4(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. Illa allatheena AAahadtummina almushrikeena thumma lam yanqusookum shay-an walam yuthahirooAAalaykum ahadan faatimmoo ilayhim AAahdahum ilamuddatihim inna Allaha yuhibbu almuttaqeena http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_4.gif9:5But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009_files/9_5.gif9:6If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
Read 4. It says they have not attacked Muslims. Their crime is not becoming Muslims.

5 says keep the treaty until it expires, then kill them.

Nothing about them being at war with Muslims.

6 says grant them asylum IF they convert.

If you only have done a little more research you would have know the reason why these verses are revealed. Hadiths tells us that Prophet Muhammad went for pilgrimage from madinah to Makkah with a huge number of muslims with him. When they reach Makkah the pagans of makkah didnot let them in. infact they signed a peace treaty with the prophet called Sulah Hudaibiya. which some of the companions doubted because they could have easily overtook makkah. But later some of the pagans of makkah started breaking the rules of the treaty. The pagans were aiding other enimies of Islam in the war which was an open violation of the treaty. Thats why the quran is telling us not go on war untill the treaty is still intact. if you read the translation that you have quoted you would see the translator have quoted (every stratagem (of war); ) meaning the arabic context is reffering to war.

The pagans of makkah have already attacked the muslims of madinah three times the battle of badr, uhud and the battle of Khanduq(ditch). Still The Prophet (peace be upon him) signed the peace treaty with the pagans when the muslims were much stronger than the pagans. It was only done to avoid bloodshed. Later when Muslims conquered Makkah no bloodshed occur because the pagans surrendered and every one was forgiven of its past doing.
These verses do not say that. I am not talking about where they did attack Muslims.

These verses specifically say this group did not do so they were to honor the treaty until it expired and then kill them.

Those who did not break treaty are being lumped in with those who did and all are being killed because they were viewed as Pagans.

I clearly see the groups and locals being distinquished as loyal and treaty breakers.

It says it is righteous to keep the treaty and not touch them but once the treaty expires then it is convert or die.

[Jupiter]

These verses do not say that. I am not talking about where they did attack Muslims.

These verses specifically say this group did not do so they were to honor the treaty until it expired and then kill them.

Those who did not break treaty are being lumped in with those who did and all are being killed because they were viewed as Pagans.

I clearly see the groups and locals being distinquished as loyal and treaty breakers.

It says it is righteous to keep the treaty and not touch them but once the treaty expires then it is convert or die.

Quran gives us a telegraphic message. to understand that we have to refer to the Hadiths. In the Hadiths Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him) shows us How to follow the message of the Quran. The same way in one of the post you asked about wife beating in the Quran. The Hadith gives us the answer. If you have read the verse first it says admonish them first, then refuse to share the bed then as a last resort beat them. Now the companions asked the prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) about wife beating. and he took out his miswak(wooden stick used to brush teeth) and tapped it on his arm. The meaning is clear it should be done only to make her feel her guilt. It should not be done in a way that pain is inflicted or injur her or any bruise her body. If that is done then the man himself will be accountable for that.

[InTheWind]

I have a question Jupiter, have you ever seen any miracles that came from asking Allah, healing for example. Just curious :scratch:

I forgot when i posted that Satan can perform miracles to deceive man so the question means nothing.

[Jessie]

again death. decieptful and cruel.

where are those mercies in that?

this is no different than the inquistion, forcing others to be RCC.

not real. not a real change.

Jessie Then tell me what is the punishment of blashpemy according to your Bible.

what is your point? you have bounced around with queston after question but never really understanding any of the answers you have been given.

my point is that mercy doesnot means we can disregard justice. you say christianity is the most merciful religion and just too. Jesus died for our sins so every one is saved. I am asking where is justice for the people who have suffered pain and cruelty from other christians. How is you God is going to do equal justice.


no mercy does not mean justice is disregarded.

salvation is one thing. that is between man and God, I think were you miss the point is that forgiveness is one thing, consequences for sin is another.
there are consequences for all sin.

then one has man to man relationships. God gave specific laws concerning that.

you will find that murders, hateful, fierce, adulterers, ect, are not the saved,
only christian in name only. not the heart.
not everyone who calls themselves christian is christian, nor is everyone who calls themselves muslim actually muslim.

this is why we have governments and laws to abide by.

and like Core has told you there are judgements here and eternal as well.

see you started out on how we all had the same God but as you post,
its very clear we dont.

even in the instance of how to treat wemon and many other things.

[CoreIssue]

These verses do not say that. I am not talking about where they did attack Muslims.

These verses specifically say this group did not do so they were to honor the treaty until it expired and then kill them.

Those who did not break treaty are being lumped in with those who did and all are being killed because they were viewed as Pagans.

I clearly see the groups and locals being distinquished as loyal and treaty breakers.

It says it is righteous to keep the treaty and not touch them but once the treaty expires then it is convert or die.

Quran gives us a telegraphic message. to understand that we have to refer to the Hadiths. In the Hadiths Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him) shows us How to follow the message of the Quran. The same way in one of the post you asked about wife beating in the Quran. The Hadith gives us the answer. If you have read the verse first it says admonish them first, then refuse to share the bed then as a last resort beat them. Now the companions asked the prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) about wife beating. and he took out his miswak(wooden stick used to brush teeth) and tapped it on his arm. The meaning is clear it should be done only to make her feel her guilt. It should not be done in a way that pain is inflicted or injur her or any bruise her body. If that is done then the man himself will be accountable for that.
And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?

[Jupiter]

There are earthly judgments and eternal judgments.

Those who repent have their sins paid for via Jesus for eternity. Those who do not will be punished for all their sins.



So literally you are saying people like Hitler are justified because Jesus died for their sins and they will be saved in the hereafter.

[a.baker]

So Jupiter what about the 10 commandments?

[Jessie]

no we did not.

and why do you keep bringing up hitler? he was into occultism and was NO christian period.

[Jessie]

These verses do not say that. I am not talking about where they did attack Muslims.

These verses specifically say this group did not do so they were to honor the treaty until it expired and then kill them.

Those who did not break treaty are being lumped in with those who did and all are being killed because they were viewed as Pagans.

I clearly see the groups and locals being distinquished as loyal and treaty breakers.

It says it is righteous to keep the treaty and not touch them but once the treaty expires then it is convert or die.

Quran gives us a telegraphic message. to understand that we have to refer to the Hadiths. In the Hadiths Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon Him) shows us How to follow the message of the Quran. The same way in one of the post you asked about wife beating in the Quran. The Hadith gives us the answer. If you have read the verse first it says admonish them first, then refuse to share the bed then as a last resort beat them. Now the companions asked the prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) about wife beating. and he took out his miswak(wooden stick used to brush teeth) and tapped it on his arm. The meaning is clear it should be done only to make her feel her guilt. It should not be done in a way that pain is inflicted or injur her or any bruise her body. If that is done then the man himself will be accountable for that.
And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?


still waiting for a answer to this question....

[Jupiter]

And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?


still waiting for a answer to this question....

The wife can also tell the husband to follow the rulings of the religion. if the man still presist she can press charge against her husband and the husband not religiously commited is enough for the woman to get a divorce. These are all Islamic laws.

[Jupiter]

no we did not.

and why do you keep bringing up hitler? he was into occultism and was NO christian period.

Hitler being a christian or not that I am not trying to proof. God knows best who was he. I am asking is that if a person like him is a christian then how is your Lord going to
do justice. or you would say Jesus had already died for his sins.

[Jupiter]

So Jupiter what about the 10 commandments?

I have not read the commandments yet. can you post them or give me link.

[Jessie]

no we did not.

and why do you keep bringing up hitler? he was into occultism and was NO christian period.

Hitler being a christian or not that I am not trying to proof. God knows best who was he. I am asking is that if a person like him is a christian then how is your Lord going to
do justice. or you would say Jesus had already died for his sins.

the dude is in hell, or I should say in the place that preceeds the judgement for going to hell.
does that answer your question?


when a person accepts the fact that Jesus died for their sins, they start putting off a lot of things that offend God and continue to do so thru their life.

[Jessie]

And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?


still waiting for a answer to this question....

The wife can also tell the husband to follow the rulings of the religion. if the man still presist she can press charge against her husband and the husband not religiously commited is enough for the woman to get a divorce. These are all Islamic laws.

I havent seen one man stand up for a women over there not a one.
it would be pointless for a women to stand up and say anything lest she lose her head ect.....

[CoreIssue]

And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?


still waiting for a answer to this question....

The wife can also tell the husband to follow the rulings of the religion. if the man still presist she can press charge against her husband and the husband not religiously commited is enough for the woman to get a divorce. These are all Islamic laws.
Ah! So he can beat her but she cannot beat him.

So, not equal under justice, I see.

[CoreIssue]

no we did not.

and why do you keep bringing up hitler? he was into occultism and was NO christian period.

Hitler being a christian or not that I am not trying to proof. God knows best who was he. I am asking is that if a person like him is a christian then how is your Lord going to
do justice. or you would say Jesus had already died for his sins.
No one like him would be a Christian when being like him.

Moot question since it is based on a false premise.

But, if he repented, he would be born-again but he would cease to do what Hitler did.

One or the other. Not both.

[CoreIssue]

So Jupiter what about the 10 commandments?

I have not read the commandments yet. can you post them or give me link.
Ten Commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Text_of_the_Ten_Commandments)

But some are fulfilled by Christ, such as Sabbath keeping.

[Jupiter]

And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?


still waiting for a answer to this question....

The wife can also tell the husband to follow the rulings of the religion. if the man still presist she can press charge against her husband and the husband not religiously commited is enough for the woman to get a divorce. These are all Islamic laws.
Ah! So he can beat her but she cannot beat him.

So, not equal under justice, I see.

Men and woman are given equal rights but that does not mean they should be Identical. Phsically men and woman are not made identical. woman are given rights that are more suitable to them. You tell me how can a woman beat her husband when her husband is more stronger then her. she can take help from outside. Remember Islam also tells us that a man cannot go to heaven if the woman of his house is not happy from him.

[Jupiter]

But, if he repented, he would be born-again but he would cease to do what Hitler did.

One or the other. Not both.

what do exactly mean by he would be cease to do what Hitler did.

[CoreIssue]

And if the man is guilty of the same problems? Then what? Does he get beat?


still waiting for a answer to this question....

The wife can also tell the husband to follow the rulings of the religion. if the man still presist she can press charge against her husband and the husband not religiously commited is enough for the woman to get a divorce. These are all Islamic laws.
Ah! So he can beat her but she cannot beat him.

So, not equal under justice, I see.

Men and woman are given equal rights but that does not mean they should be Identical. Phsically men and woman are not made identical. woman are given rights that are more suitable to them. You tell me how can a woman beat her husband when her husband is more stronger then her. she can take help from outside. Remember Islam also tells us that a man cannot go to heaven if the woman of his house is not happy from him.
That is evading the issue. Nor is it equal rights.

The man can divorce without cause. Not equal.

He can go out by himself anytime. Woman cannot. Not equal.

And more.

It is not an issue of wisdom to do so or not when it is in Islamic Law. Especially Sharia Law.

She does not have a legal right to beat him, which is not the same issue as actually being able to do so.

[CoreIssue]

But, if he repented, he would be born-again but he would cease to do what Hitler did.

One or the other. Not both.

what do exactly mean by he would be cease to do what Hitler did.
I mean a born-again Christian will NEVER do what Hitler did.

He slaughtered Jews and Christians by the millions. Born-again Christians would not do that.

He attacked other countries solely for conquest and trying to create a New Roman Empire. Christians have no such interest.

He went to astrologers and such. Swasticas and such are mystic and occult signs from Eastern Mysticism, not Christianity.

And on. He did things no born-again person would ever do. Or think to do.

[InTheWind]

He did things no born-again person would ever do. Or think to do.


And that is the part you can not grasp Jupiter. :(

[Jupiter]

So Jupiter what about the 10 commandments?

I have not read the commandments yet. can you post them or give me link.
Ten Commandments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Text_of_the_Ten_Commandments)

But some are fulfilled by Christ, such as Sabbath keeping.

Thankyou for the Link.

I read the commandments. Most of them are similar what the Quran tells us. except a couple of them.

12 Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
This ruling is for both Jews and christians. Why do most christians are working on saturday which is sabbath day. when they should be worshiping their Lord that day and and it is totally forbidden for them to work on the sabbath. How come christians usually go to church on Sundays.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

In this one I Doubt God rested on the seventh day. My God doesnot get tired of doing anything. Creating the Universe was nothing for Him.

There is one more very important. It says You shall not make for yourself an idol. You say Jesus is God. and why do I see so many Statues of Jesus infront of churches. Selling small statues in stores. and aslo statues of Mary. Aren't they making Idols of God.

[Jupiter]

But, if he repented, he would be born-again but he would cease to do what Hitler did.

One or the other. Not both.

what do exactly mean by he would be cease to do what Hitler did.
I mean a born-again Christian will NEVER do what Hitler did.

He slaughtered Jews and Christians by the millions. Born-again Christians would not do that.

He attacked other countries solely for conquest and trying to create a New Roman Empire. Christians have no such interest.

He went to astrologers and such. Swasticas and such are mystic and occult signs from Eastern Mysticism, not Christianity.

And on. He did things no born-again person would ever do. Or think to do.

There are 2 billion Christian today in the world you can't say none of them commit brutal crimes after they are born again. I am not asking he is going to that. what if that is done then what.

[CoreIssue]

Thankyou for the Link.
You are most welcome.
I read the commandments. Most of them are similar what the Quran tells us. except a couple of them.
The Quran largely is a copy over in that area.
12 Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
This ruling is for both Jews and christians. Why do most christians are working on saturday which is sabbath day. when they should be worshiping their Lord that day and and it is totally forbidden for them to work on the sabbath. How come christians usually go to church on Sundays.

Where did you ever get the idea the Sabbath is for Christians?

NT tells you that Sabbaths are complete in Christ. There isn't a single fixed day and from the start Sunday was observed by many to distinquish them from Jews and to signify a new beginning on such things.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

In this one I Doubt God rested on the seventh day. My God doesnot get tired of doing anything. Creating the Universe was nothing for Him.

Rest in the Hebrew does not just mean getting tired. It also means a change of activity.

God changed activity on the 7th day.
There is one more very important. It says You shall not make for yourself an idol. You say Jesus is God. and why do I see so many Statues of Jesus infront of churches. Selling small statues in stores. and aslo statues of Mary. Aren't they making Idols of God.
You are talking Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The rest of us don't because it isn't right to do.

[CoreIssue]

There are 2 billion Christian today in the world you can't say none of them commit brutal crimes after they are born again. I am not asking he is going to that. what if that is done then what.

Lashing out in anger and doing something brutal is one thing.

But with Hitler it was his nature and way of life. No Christian could do that because our natures change when born-again. It isn't in us to live like that.

If it happens, it is covered by the blood of Christ.

Again, one is either saved or not. There are no degrees of salvation. Nor do some sins condemn more than others, the least condemns as much as the greatest.

Rewards and Punishments are based on works. Saints are not punished, they are forgiven, since Christ took our punishment for us.

[Jupiter]

But with Hitler it was his nature and way of life. No Christian could do that because our natures change when born-again. It isn't in us to live like that.

If it happens, it is covered by the blood of Christ.

Again, one is either saved or not. There are no degrees of salvation. Nor do some sins condemn more than others, the least condemns as much as the greatest.

Rewards and Punishments are based on works. Saints are not punished, they are forgiven, since Christ took our punishment for us.

So what about the Victim who is killed. His blood has gone in vain. How would he get Justice.

[CoreIssue]

So what about the Victim who is killed. His blood has gone in vain. How would he get Justice.

The kind of justice you are speaking of is worldly. So yes, he would still deserve the death penalty.

I was speaking of eternal consequences.

[Jupiter]

The Quran largely is a copy over in that area.
And yet the choices of words in the Quran are much better then the Bible.

Rest in the Hebrew does not just mean getting tired. It also means a change of activity.


From Genises.
When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."

There are other verses in the Bible that contain such negative attributes about God Almighty, such as the following:


Quote:
Between me and the Israelites it is to be an everlasting token; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day he rested at his ease."
Exodus 31:17 [New American Bible]


The King James Version translated the same verse as follows:


Quote:
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

And the New American Standard Bible translated the same verse as follows:


Quote:
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."


The question is, how does the Christian belief the God Almighty is perfect fit in with Biblical verses that state that His heart grieved for creating humans, that He was sorry He created humans, and that He rested on the seventh day "at his ease" or was "refreshed" on that seventh day? You believe it or not these verses are Degrading God.

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;28365]
The Quran largely is a copy over in that area.
And yet the choices of words in the Quran are much better then the Bible.

No. And you are not qualified to make that statement since you have already demonstrated you are not abiding by rules of grammar, defining words correctly or have read enough of the Bible to evaluate it to the degree you are making declarations.


Rest in the Hebrew does not just mean getting tired. It also means a change of activity.


From Genises.
When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."

There are other verses in the Bible that contain such negative attributes about God Almighty, such as the following:


Quote:
Between me and the Israelites it is to be an everlasting token; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day he rested at his ease."
Exodus 31:17 [New American Bible]

Bad translation and I do not use that version. I use the NIV and NASB, which are far more accurate.
17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "
Strong's Number: 07673 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=7673&version=kjv)Original WordWord OrigintbXa primitive rootTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07673&version=kjv#Legend) EntryShabathTWOT - 2323, 2323cPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechshaw-bath' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=7673h) Verb Definition

to cease, desist, rest
(Qal)
to cease
to rest, desist (from labour)
(Niphal) to cease
(Hiphil)

to cause to cease, put an end to
to exterminate, destroy
to cause to desist from
to remove
to cause to fail

(Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath
As I said, change of effort or cease from an effort.

The King James Version translated the same verse as follows:


Quote:
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Archaic translation where the English meanings of words and sentence structure has changed.

Plus many really bad translations.

And the New American Standard Bible translated the same verse as follows:


Quote:
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

Yep. Bad translation.
Strong's Number: 05314 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=5314&version=kjv)Original WordWord OriginXpna primitive rootTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05314&version=kjv#Legend) EntryNaphashTWOT - 1395Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechnaw-fash' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=5314h) Verb Definition

(Niphal) to take breath, refresh oneselfKing James Word Usage - Total: 3refreshed 3
Cease and take a breath. Figurative of what one does when they finish and take a pause.

Not what you are claiming.
The question is, how does the Christian belief the God Almighty is perfect fit in with Biblical verses that state that His heart grieved for creating humans, that He was sorry He created humans, and that He rested on the seventh day "at his ease" or was "refreshed" on that seventh day? You believe it or not these verses are Degrading God.
So God is not suppose to have feelings? Then how can he love if he cannot feel regret?

And using bad translations or places where poor translation choices were made to make claims does not work for the others.

Refresh does not mean what you are claiming.

[roman8]

Just my :2cents: worth.

I have always understood that God created for the 6 days and rested on the 7th as an example to us , that there should be one day set aside to rest.
I mean he could have created everything in a blink of an eye but did in 6 days , not because it took him that long , but like every thing it was done for us..

[Jessie]

The Quran largely is a copy over in that area.
And yet the choices of words in the Quran are much better then the Bible.

Rest in the Hebrew does not just mean getting tired. It also means a change of activity.


From Genises.
When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them."

There are other verses in the Bible that contain such negative attributes about God Almighty, such as the following:


Quote:
Between me and the Israelites it is to be an everlasting token; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day he rested at his ease."
Exodus 31:17 [New American Bible]


The King James Version translated the same verse as follows:


Quote:
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

And the New American Standard Bible translated the same verse as follows:


Quote:
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."


The question is, how does the Christian belief the God Almighty is perfect fit in with Biblical verses that state that His heart grieved for creating humans, that He was sorry He created humans, and that He rested on the seventh day "at his ease" or was "refreshed" on that seventh day? You believe it or not these verses are Degrading God.



who are you to say that it is degrading to God?

you do not understand the whys of all that happened you again bounce around in scripture seemingly trying to put it together all out of context and then think you've come up with something. you jump from beginning to finish and add some of the middle sprinkled here and there.

you look at scripture from a mans point of view. mere man.

and you dont listen to core you skim over and pick to quick.
he told you that translation was NO good.

[CoreIssue]

Just my :2cents: worth.

I have always understood that God created for the 6 days and rested on the 7th as an example to us , that there should be one day set aside to rest.
I mean he could have created everything in a blink of an eye but did in 6 days , not because it took him that long , but like every thing it was done for us..
That is a popular thought but it does not fit the Bible model.

God, in his wisdom, divides time periods into 7s and multiples of 7s. Many OT festivals and such are based on time periods of 7, a week of years is 7, 70 weeks of Daniel are based on 7, Trib is 7 and half a 7 based, 7 angels of covenants and so on.

In all of these the final 7 represents change.

As with the 7 churches, the 6th and 7th coexist with the 6th raptured and the 7th ceasing to be a recognized church and spit out into the Trib, changing to under the Israel covenant.

Rest is ceasing an activity. Change to another activity is also resting from activity to another by ceasing the first.

What happened after the 6th day of creation? God began visiting Adam and Eve and the time of Innocence was in effect. That was change from creation to duration of a fixed condition.

Hope that made sense in saying it this way.

[roman8]

Just my :2cents: worth.

I have always understood that God created for the 6 days and rested on the 7th as an example to us , that there should be one day set aside to rest.
I mean he could have created everything in a blink of an eye but did in 6 days , not because it took him that long , but like every thing it was done for us..
That is a popular thought but it does not fit the Bible model.

God, in his wisdom, divides time periods into 7s and multiples of 7s. Many OT festivals and such are based on time periods of 7, a week of years is 7, 70 weeks of Daniel are based on 7, Trib is 7 and half a 7 based, 7 angels of covenants and so on.

In all of these the final 7 represents change.

As with the 7 churches, the 6th and 7th coexist with the 6th raptured and the 7th ceasing to be a recognized church and spit out into the Trib, changing to under the Israel covenant.

Rest is ceasing an activity. Change to another activity is also resting from activity to another by ceasing the first.

What happened after the 6th day of creation? God began visiting Adam and Eve and the time of Innocence was in effect. That was change from creation to duration of a fixed condition.

Hope that made sense in saying it this way.

That all makes sense.

Is that what The Lord means when he says to keep the sabbath holy , He means change, different, seperate?

[a.baker]

Or does it mean to keep it holy by having a change from your usual work to a day where you refresh your soul by taking a special time for Him. Something that is not done on a typical day; i.e. go to church (I am not trying to say anyone has to go to church, just first example that came to mind). Separate from worldly tasks and focus on Him. Something that is recharging for your relationship with Him.

[CoreIssue]

That all makes sense.

Is that what The Lord means when he says to keep the sabbath holy , He means change, different, seperate?

Holy comes from the same root word as sanctify, saint and similar. It means set apart for God.

Cease the activity of earthly pursuits and commence the activity of spiritual pursuits. Change of effort.

[a.baker]

:nod: Well put !

[Jupiter]

Bad translation and I do not use that version. I use the NIV and NASB, which are far more accurate.

Bad-translations are common place in the Bible it appears ? Now why does that not extend to the concept of Jesus being God ?

You say NIV and NASB are far more accurate. Still not perfectly accurate.


When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them.

Rest in the Hebrew does not just mean getting tired. It also means a change of activity.

Grieve implies guilt, isn't it? and guilt implies sin ... so ?

But let say it doesn't, then it will at least imply that God did not know what will happen which makes him imperfect (so he was surprised to know something). God (Allah SWT) is perfect, all knowing and all able in the Muslim belief.

Would you please now tell me what else does God not know?


So God is not suppose to have feelings? Then how can he love if he cannot feel regret?


God having feelings and regretting is something that makes God imperfect. The words are contaminated. If your God feels regret then He was not aware of the consequences.

Where did you ever get the idea the Sabbath is for Christians?

NT tells you that Sabbaths are complete in Christ. There isn't a single fixed day and from the start Sunday was observed by many to distinquish them from Jews and to signify a new beginning on such things.

Can you please give me refrence from the NT where Jesus says that.

Quote:Jupiter
So what about the Victim who is killed. His blood has gone in vain. How would he get Justice.
The kind of justice you are speaking of is worldly. So yes, he would still deserve the death penalty.

I was speaking of eternal consequences.
Deserving the death penalty does not mean he will get it. He can escape the worldy punishment. Killing is only one crime. there are many other cimes done which only God and the person knows. Infact after a while the person also forgets what he did only God Knows what he did. How is your Lord going to do justice to the victims.


Agree. Christianity succeeds in the scholarly and other tests, Islam does not.


And yet more people are conveting to Islam mostly christians.
See the CNN report.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PN-EfgU7PW4
NBC report
http://youtube.com/watch?v=49Ud-LUIMvM
watch this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=d79j1L0TQTM
Complete story
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E6K0627FiCk&feature=related
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/Yusuf_story.htm

[Willy]

Deserving the death penalty does not mean he will get it. He can escape the worldy punishment. Killing is only one crime. there are many other cimes done which only God and the person knows. Infact after a while the person also forgets what he did only God Knows what he did. How is your Lord going to do justice to the victims.The answer to that lies in a place Islam will not go.

Would you please now tell me what else does God not know?
He does not know how to arbitrarily forgive sin.

Bad-translations are common place in the Bible it appears ?That's why we go to the Greek and Hebrew.
Now why does that not extend to the concept of Jesus being God ? Because all translations are clear on that point.
God having feelings and regretting is something that makes God imperfect.:scratch:

[InTheWind]

Jupiter, at least you admit we don`t serve the same God. Our God is the one that gave all the land to the Jews, yours is the one that`s trying to take it away from them.

[Jupiter]

The answer to that lies in a place Islam will not go.
So what is the answer. You say God is just then how is he going to do justice with every living thing.

He does not know how to arbitrarily forgive sin.
If you are reffering that to Islam then let me tell you no where in the Quran God tells us he is going to randomly forgive sins.

That's why we go to the Greek and Hebrew. and you still don't have the original Greek or the Hebrew.

Now why does that not extend to the concept of Jesus being God ? Because all translations are clear on that point.
and who is telling you the concept of trinity. Is mathew mark luke or John. or Paul who wrote letters which became bible.
:scratch:

That sign of yours is telling me you think your God regretted after seeing the mess humans made on earth. Then God is not godly enough to be called God because he was not sure what will happen.

[Jupiter]

Jupiter, at least you admit we don`t serve the same God. Our God is the one that gave all the land to the Jews, yours is the one that`s trying to take it away from them.

When I am saying your God it means the way christians look at God. The way Bible is reffering to God. and vice versa.

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;28371]
Bad translation and I do not use that version. I use the NIV and NASB, which are far more accurate.

Bad-translations are common place in the Bible it appears ? Now why does that not extend to the concept of Jesus being God ?

You say NIV and NASB are far more accurate. Still not perfectly accurate.

Playing games here. The Quran also has different translations where accuracy is argued.

No language translates to another easily. There are alway issues.

So don't play the card that it is only a Bible issue.


When the LORD saw how great was man's wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil, he regretted that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was grieved. So the LORD said: "I will wipe out from the earth the men whom I have created, and not only the men, but also the beasts and the creeping things and the birds of the air, for I am sorry that I made them.

Rest in the Hebrew does not just mean getting tired. It also means a change of activity.

Grieve implies guilt, isn't it? and guilt implies sin ... so ?

No. It does not.

One grieves over the loss of a spouse, in example.

So where did you ever get that definition for the word? Islam?

But let say it doesn't, then it will at least imply that God did not know what will happen which makes him imperfect (so he was surprised to know something). God (Allah SWT) is perfect, all knowing and all able in the Muslim belief.

Absurd statement.

There being a negative part of an overall positive effort does not make it either unknown.

The god of Islam is a cold god. Legalistic and yet creating a human race burdened with a flawed nature, call it sin nature or not.
Would you please now tell me what else does God not know?
He knows everything.


So God is not suppose to have feelings? Then how can he love if he cannot feel regret?


God having feelings and regretting is something that makes God imperfect. The words are contaminated. If your God feels regret then He was not aware of the consequences.

That makes God incapable of love. Love is required for mercy. So Islam lies in saying God is merciful since he is incapable of it.


Where did you ever get the idea the Sabbath is for Christians?

NT tells you that Sabbaths are complete in Christ. There isn't a single fixed day and from the start Sunday was observed by many to distinquish them from Jews and to signify a new beginning on such things.

Can you please give me refrence from the NT where Jesus says that.

First you explain why you keep dismissing the Apostles as part of the NT and demanding it comes solely from Christ himself?


Quote:Jupiter
So what about the Victim who is killed. His blood has gone in vain. How would he get Justice.
The kind of justice you are speaking of is worldly. So yes, he would still deserve the death penalty.

I was speaking of eternal consequences.
Deserving the death penalty does not mean he will get it. He can escape the worldy punishment. Killing is only one crime. there are many other cimes done which only God and the person knows. Infact after a while the person also forgets what he did only God Knows what he did. How is your Lord going to do justice to the victims.

That does not deal with the eternal side of the issue and I explained that, which you are not addressing.

How does Islam deal with it? How does Allah grant mercy and give justice to the victim in your eyes?


Agree. Christianity succeeds in the scholarly and other tests, Islam does not.


And yet more people are conveting to Islam mostly christians.

People fail every day in getting to the truth.

We are in the End Times where that failure is increasing at a rampant rate. Islam is but one kind of failure.

I am doubting your purpose here is anything but converting people to Islam. In reviewing you have totally failed to address any answers given you but moved on to your next attack.

[InTheWind]

Jupiter, at least you admit we don`t serve the same God. Our God is the one that gave all the land to the Jews, yours is the one that`s trying to take it away from them.

When I am saying your God it means the way christians look at God. The way Bible is reffering to God. and vice versa.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are talking about two different Gods, the Christian one that created all things and the man made one. That`s just my opinion you believe as you wish.

[Jupiter]

No language translates to another easily. There are alway issues.

So don't play the card that it is only a Bible issue.

Yes you are correct. its not easy to translate a language especially languages like hebrew or arabic which are two sister languages very much similar to each other and are very rich. I apologise for that.

There being a negative part of an overall positive effort does not make it either unknown.

I didn't get the positive part. can you please explain

The god of Islam is a cold god. Legalistic and yet creating a human race burdened with a flawed nature, call it sin nature or not.
I think I read somewhere in the bible I am a Jealous God. anyhow what are you going to call a judge who is very just and does justice to his very best. even he punishes his very beloved ones and give justice to the victimes. if you say he is a cold judge its upto you.




First you explain why you keep dismissing the Apostles as part of the NT and demanding it comes solely from Christ himself?
I do not know anything about the apostles of NT. apostle meaning messenger of God. Can you tell me about them. were they of the same rank like Moses and Abraham. Were they prophesised before like Jesus being prophesised by Moses. How were they chosen and what was their purpose.


How does Islam deal with it? How does Allah grant mercy and give justice to the victim in your eyes?
it's not my eyes, my views counts for nothing if I cannot back it from the sources. Islam gives us a very simple way. Every person has two kinds of rights. One is right of God upon him and the other is the right of people upon him. Gods right is worship him follow his comandments. Rights of people are all those good things we have to do to them. If we repent God can forgive the sins on his side but God will not forgive him of the sufferings, pain and betraying that he has caused to other people. That will be unjust to the victims. Islam gives us a solution to that. if he is able go and apologise to the victims pay them back what he owes them. If that is not possible then give donation on thier behalf or pray for thier forgiveness. More good deeds is the only thing that a person needs with faith on the day of judgement when he will be really in need of it.

Islam is not just about believing. its more than that. It want you to work. If God wanted to forgive us by just believing than He also created millions and millions of angels which is a sinless creation. then the purpose of creating humans seems to be absurd.


I am doubting your purpose here is anything but converting people to Islam. In reviewing you have totally failed to address any answers given you but moved on to your next attack. I am not trying to convert. My sole purpose is to get more knowledge by arguing and dialogue.

As christian say guidance is from God. Muslims say the same too.:nod:

[a.baker]

You are right Jupiter we can't be saved just by believing in Jesus. We must know Him and have a relationship with Him. When we know Him we change accordingly to His will that is laid out in the bible for us and the Holy Spirit helps us out with that when we need Him too.

Yes God is a jealous God when it comes to idols and such. Maybe you read that in one of the commandments?

Now justice is Gods and it says in the bible to not worry about it so much because He will serve justice as needed and we are at peace with that. I am not saying lets throw out earthly punishments. All I am saying is that there is worldly and eternal punishments as Core mentioned before. But if you are to serve justice yourself to someone who wronged you and take matters in your own hands it will come around the corner and slap you in the face.
Now seriously a question of mine you have not felt "important enough to answer"; where is the justice in giving a woman lashes that is a rape victim? Why in the world would you need to serve justice to a victim? And why in the world would you need to murder some one who does not follow what you do in religion? Do you not have enough faith in your god that he would serve justice if something was so wrong to where you feel it is your duty to serve justice? Your faith in your god proves the falsehood! Satan is filling you with lies; telling you you need to do the justice for God.

So let me get this right; anyone who does good works will be saved?

When it comes to your other questions some one else can help you with that because I am learning much still. :):

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;28371]
There being a negative part of an overall positive effort does not make it either unknown.

I didn't get the positive part. can you please explain
The total creation plan is positive. But it does contain some negative outcomes by the freewill choices of some.


The god of Islam is a cold god. Legalistic and yet creating a human race burdened with a flawed nature, call it sin nature or not.
I think I read somewhere in the bible I am a Jealous God. anyhow what are you going to call a judge who is very just and does justice to his very best. even he punishes his very beloved ones and give justice to the victimes. if you say he is a cold judge its upto you.

The problem with that statement is that EVERYONE has done unjustice at some time or the other and most, if not all, have also been victims.

So this position you are trying to take has a major flaw in it. And it dismisses Jesus took the punishment for injustices done by saints and those who are not saints pay their own prices.

So justice is demanded and paid, contrary to what you are claiming.



First you explain why you keep dismissing the Apostles as part of the NT and demanding it comes solely from Christ himself?
I do not know anything about the apostles of NT. apostle meaning messenger of God. Can you tell me about them. were they of the same rank like Moses and Abraham. Were they prophesised before like Jesus being prophesised by Moses. How were they chosen and what was their purpose.

They were prophets in the sense OT prophets where prophets. They spoke for God, did miracles and so on.

Jesus personally chose and annointed them.

Abraham was not a prophet. He was a Patriarch. Moses was a prophet.

Yes, they were prophets of a rank equal to Moses, but of a different covenant.

Their purpose was to establish the Church, create the NT and similar. Very similar to Moses and the Law.



How does Islam deal with it? How does Allah grant mercy and give justice to the victim in your eyes?
it's not my eyes, my views counts for nothing if I cannot back it from the sources. Islam gives us a very simple way. Every person has two kinds of rights. One is right of God upon him and the other is the right of people upon him. Gods right is worship him follow his comandments. Rights of people are all those good things we have to do to them.

So why are you critical of the Bible and the Biblical God? The Biblical God bestows rights as well. Just defined very differently in the Bible, OT and NT.
If we repent God can forgive the sins
Islam requires works to be saved. Works are not the same thing as repentence.
on his side but God will not forgive him of the sufferings, pain and betraying that he has caused to other people.
That is a contrardiction. Most sins people commit are aginst other people.
That will be unjust to the victims.
You are talking earthly justice here, not spiritual.

Islam gives us a solution to that. if he is able go and apologise to the victims pay them back what he owes them. If that is not possible then give donation on thier behalf or pray for thier forgiveness. More good deeds is the only thing that a person needs with faith on the day of judgement when he will be really in need of it.

That is works. Not forgiveness by repentence.

Sure, if one repents repayment is good. But if they cannot repay it is still repentence.

Islam is not just about believing. its more than that. It want you to work. If God wanted to forgive us by just believing than He also created millions and millions of angels which is a sinless creation. then the purpose of creating humans seems to be absurd.

Your opinion on creation.

But again you contradict yourself at every turn. One side you talk of grace and repentence being sufficient then you demand works. Grace and works are completely incompatible in meaning for salvation.

But works resulting from grace is not contradictory and makes sense.

If works are required, it is not grace, but earned. If by grace works are not required. One or the other, not both.

I am doubting your purpose here is anything but converting people to Islam. In reviewing you have totally failed to address any answers given you but moved on to your next attack. I am not trying to convert. My sole purpose is to get more knowledge by arguing and dialogue.

As christian say guidance is from God. Muslims say the same too.:nod:
OK.

[monilove]

Hello Jupiter. When grace is taught effectively the first question from anyone raised in an legalistic enviroment is "Well if God forgives sin simply by belief in the true Gospel as outlined in I Corinthians Chap 15 vs 1-5, then God is saying its okay to go out and do whatever you want? Paul answered that question in Romans 6 vs 2. Once we have accepted that Jesus gave His life and paid the debt we owed completely by keeping the law perfectly(if law was removed/destroyed He could not have fulfilled it) and rose from the dead never to die again, God's grace covers us. The Holy Spirit indwells us. Once we understand how much love it took for Jesus to go to the Cross on our behalf, the awesomeness of that love overwhelms us to the point where we no longer yearn to sin. Because God loves us and has saved us, we in turn lean on the Holy Spirit to lead us away from those things God finds displeasing. IE is there someone you love? Now because you love this person, no one has to say now dont steal from him/her. Now dont go and slander their name. Now you make sure you dont commit adultery on her. You know why you dont those things? Because you love this person. Not because you have a list of commandments imprinted on your hand that you must consult every five mins. That love is there once the Holy Spirit enters and the law of God is then written in your heart. Because Jesus has paid the sin debt, when we fall and we all do as our flesh has not been glorified now, we are forgiven because its already covered in the Blood of Christ.....Whereas where Christ Jesus is not, the law abounds. See Romans 1 and 2. There God outlines what we truly are. There is nothing inherently good in us before we accept Christ and the Spirit of God indwells us. It speaks of self righteousness and its failure. Romans Chap 2 is Paul writing under the Holy Spirit stating that even those who are religious, make their boast in the law,know God's law,approve all things that are excellent yet lack salvation by Faith thru Grace are lost. They judge others for the same things they do themselves. If you have not a Savior who has paid your sin debt, how will ever know that you've done enough good works to go to Heaven? Who is keeping the list?How horrific not to know your end. To have that up in arms all of your life when you can know and be assured by the glorious blood of Christ Jesus? You spend your life wondering if your sin outweighs your good only to find out its not even a close comparison. Many of us who were raised in a legalistic environment have been down that path. Without Christ Jesus there is nothing but condemnation. In Christ there is none Romans 8:1. Jesus is God as stated in Colossians 1:16-17. All things were created through Him and He was before all things.

[Jessie]

one thing you do not realize.

God will give justice to everyone.... what he considers justice and what "you" consider justice is two different things esp. how one comes to it.

God is Godly.... you are placing mans responsiblitys on God.

man sinned hence we live in a fallen world.
man has a carnal nature.

lying, cheating, murders, adultry, ect.....

no peace always creating more problems. and because man has a fallen nature prone to this, because God is a Holy God and a just God, he made a
way to be reconciled with him.

so there lies heaven or hell.

each must choose.

and forced religion, you know full well does'nt work and is not "real" but fake.

[maya]

In the Name of Allah, Most Beneficient, Most Merciful

To begin I suppose I ought to make it clear as requested that I am a Muslim. But perhaps, it may be of interest that I am indeed a revert to Islam.

I have a large Christian/Jewish family (Praise God) many of us have walked different paths of faith in my family; Methodist, Greek Orthodox, Catholic etc...

Anyhow, I just wanted to know why it is an issue believeing that our God is one and the Same.

peace

[maya]

n.b. I personally believe we; Christians, Jews and Muslims all have One God. I was directing that question twoards anyone who perhaps dosen't see it the same way.

Also anyone who does agree with me, I'd be interested to hear your side too :)

[CoreIssue]

In the Name of Allah, Most Beneficient, Most Merciful

To begin I suppose I ought to make it clear as requested that I am a Muslim. But perhaps, it may be of interest that I am indeed a revert to Islam.

I have a large Christian/Jewish family (Praise God) many of us have walked different paths of faith in my family; Methodist, Greek Orthodox, Catholic etc...

Anyhow, I just wanted to know why it is an issue believeing that our God is one and the Same.

peace

n.b. I personally believe we; Christians, Jews and Muslims all have One God. I was directing that question twoards anyone who perhaps dosen't see it the same way.

Also anyone who does agree with me, I'd be interested to hear your side too :)
Hi!

Simple answer is because we do not.

Jews and Muslims have a singular being as god to begin while Christians have a uniplural God of three beings in a singular unity. That is what elohim with singulars means in the ancient Hebrew.

Christian salvation is by grace, not by works, Islamic salvation is by works and Judaism has a range from Universal Salvation to no after life.

In Christianity Christ is God, in Islam a prophet and in Judaism a Rabbi(teacher).

In many sects of Islam you are not a Muslim with that belief.

Bottom line is the Qur'an, Bible and Torah have very different gods, salvations, laws and even societies being taught. There is no resemblance between them.

No way to possibly describe them as the same god unless you believe in a schizoid god that says a lot of conflicting things to many people and sometimes makes himself look like one and sometimes like three.

[a.baker]

Also because the bible says that the ONLY way to God is through Christ Himself. Jesus is the Christ and the Messiah and our Lord. Where the name Christen comes from. No other religion claims the same so they are all very different in that sense just to start. No Jesus is not just a anything He is our Lord! And if it starts with Jesus than it starts with Jesus. The bible talks of antichrists. So many try to say Jesus is this or that but when tested up to scripture we see the deceiving lies others portray.