Colossians 1:15-22 - Split from Original [Archive]

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Reedemed84

11-19-2007, 07:35 PM

Split from orginal thread because modalism and such are considered cult doctrine.

Well that depends. If you're thinking or trying to show with these verses that the Son is 100% God and equal to the Almighty, then no. Your translation isn't too good. This is the better translation from the original greek: (ISR Scriptures '98)

Col 1:15 "...who is the LIKENESS of the invisible Elohim (the Father), the first born of all creation."

Col 1:16 "Because IN Him were created all that are in the heavens and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or rulerships or principalities or autorities- all have been created THROUGH Him and for Him."

Col 1:17 "And He is before all, and in Him all hold together."

Col 1:18 "And He is the Head of the body, the ASSEMBLY, who is the beginning the first-born from the dead, that He might become the One who is first in all."

Col 1:19 "Because IN Him all the completeness was well pleased to dwell, by the Father"

Col 1:20 "and through Him to completely restore all favour all unto Himself, whether on earth or in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of His STAKE"

Col 1:21 "And you, who once were estranged and enemies in the mind by wicked works, but now He has completely restored to favour"

Col 1:22 "in the body of His flesh through death, to present you set-apart, and blameless, and unreprovable before Him"

Notice the Son is the invisible LIKENESS of the Father. As was Adam before him and Eve ate of the apple (see Gen. 1:26). Notice in Gen. 1:26, Adam was created in the Father's Likeness AND image. There is a difference. In Col 1, it says that the Son is the invisible LIKENESS, not the invisible image.

Also, nothing was created BY the Son. Only THROUGH the Son, who is the Word of the Father. Everything was created BY the Father ONLY. And through the Son.

CoreIssue

11-19-2007, 07:53 PM

CoreIssue

11-19-2007, 07:55 PM

Am i missing something or do these verses eliminate any doubt about who Christ is.
I think these are one of the most awesome verses in the bible.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[fn6] your evil behavior.

Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation
Yep. Takes the doubt out. Fully human, fully God and fully both. And with the Father and Son, the Triune Godhead.

CoreIssue

11-19-2007, 09:59 PM

This is the better translation from the original greek: (ISR Scriptures '98)

Sorry, but it was not translated from the original Greek. It was translated from the misnamed Textus Receptus, which was a compilation manuscript from 5 other manuscripts, none from the most ancient manuscripts discovered.

Just a point of clarity here.

Reedemed84

11-20-2007, 12:37 AM

So, you deny Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, fully equal to the First and Third Persons, who became the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with the Son being fully God within the fully human flesh of Jesus at the incarnation?

Son's flesh fully human, spirit fully God and mind fully both, thus the Bible being accurate in calling him God, human and both at the same time?

Yes, I do deny that "Jesus" is the 2nd person of the "trinity" and that he is fully equal to the 1st and 3rd persons, who became the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the Son is fully god withing the fully human flesh of "Jesus" at the incarnation. Behing fleshly fully human and spiritually fully god, and mind fully both BECAUSE...

Yahshua is the Son of the Almighty Father, Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is the Father, and the was in Yahshua. Likewise, when we are born again, the Holy Spirit dwells in us too.

The Son is NOT fully God. If He was fully God, then explain these cases to me:

1) Matt 4:10- "Then Yahshua said to him, "Go Satan! For it has been written, 'You shall worhship YHWH, your Elohim, and Him alone you shall serve.'"

(Now, going back to the fact that Elohim has 3 different meanings as I posted in another thread, this is Elohim the Father, not Elohim plural. The plural form of Elohim means priests or kings. I took Hebrew, I should know).

--So, if the Son was Fully God, why would He tell Satan to worship His Father and not worship He, Himself?--

2) Matt 12:32- "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man (Yahshua), it will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come."

--So, if the Son is fully the Father, and the Father is the Holy Spirit, why can we speak sins against the flesh and not against the spirit? Wouldn't they be equal? This shows they aren't.--

3) Matt 27:46- "...Yahshua cried out 'Eli, Eli, lemah shebaqtani?' that is, 'My Eli, My Eli, why have You forsaken Me?'"

(Eli was another name of the Father).

--Now if Yahshua was FULLY the Father, in Spirit and in MIND, then WHY in the world would He be yelling out to HIMSELF? I think this makes Yahshua a little schitzophrenic... and that is not true. And that's pretty darn close to blasphemy!--

4) John 4:23-24- "But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the TRUE WORSHIPPERS will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. The Father Yahweh is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

--Do I even need to state the obvious here? Worship the Father!!!!--

5) John 5:19- "Then Yahshua replied, 'I assure you: the Son is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing."

--Not is own, so obviously He isn't FULLY God.--

6) John 5:30- "I can do nothing on My own. I judge only as I hear, and My judgement is righteous, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

--Again, if they were fully equal, then it would be His will as much as the One who sent Him.--

7) John 7:18-19- "The one who speaks for himself seeks his own glory. But He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Didn't Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law! Why do you want to kill Me?"

--Notice in the first sentence of verse 18, 'one', 'himself', and 'his' are NOT capitalized. That is because it is not talking about the Son or Father. The rest of the verse and verse 19, is talking about the Son seeking the glory of the Father, who sent Him.--
--Also, the law. Isn't the first commandment part of the law? And doesn't the first commandment say not to worship any other god before the Almighty?--

8) John 12:48-50- "The one who rejects Me (the Word) and doesn't accept My sayings has this as his judge: the word I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on My own, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a command as to what I should say and what I should speak. I know that His command is eternal life. So the things that I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

--Again, either the Son is talking to Himself... or... just MAYBEEEE.... the Son is NOT equally the Father in spirit and in mind.--

9) John 14:10-12- "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe Me because of the works themselves. I assure you: The one who abides in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father."

--O.K. the Father is in the Son, as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also dwells in us who are born again and abide (not just believe) in the Word. The Son is not equal to the Father, because that would mean that we are equal to the Father, since the spirit also dwells in us.--

10) John 14:28- "You have heard Me tell you, 'I am going away and I am coming to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I."

--Yea... don't need to explain that one. Obvious.--

11) Acts 11:16-17- "Then I remembered the word of the Son, how He said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' Therefore, if the Father gave them the same gift that He also gave us when we abide in the Son, how could I possibly hinder the Father?"

--Even Peter here admits that we have the Holy Spirit in us, just as the Son did from the Father, when we abide and accept the Word of Yahweh.--

12) 1 Timothy 2:5-6- "For there is one Elohim and one mediator between Elohim and man, Yahshua, who gave Himself-a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time."

--This verse proves there is 1 Elohim (with the accent mark above the word) showing there is only 1 Almighty God, the Father Yahweh. And that Yahshua is a mediator between the Father and man. If Yahshua was equally the Father in mind and spirit then why would we need a mediator?--

My guess is that someone will respond with the "Before Abraham was, I am" statement... so... I'll be back to check. This is long enough lol.

CoreIssue

11-20-2007, 12:10 PM

Reedemed84

11-20-2007, 01:45 PM

First, you mistated my question. I did not say Jesus became the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I said the Three Persons of the Trinity did.

Second, you selectively pulled verses and put you demands on them, taking them out of context.

Jesus speaking as a man, which he lived as, in the Gospels, is not the divinity of his spirit, which he set aside his use of, while he lived on the earth.

Here are simple proofs he is the Second Person of the Trinity who took on flesh, becoming Jesus.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26049d)] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
With God and was God and became flesh. Point blank statement.

John 20:28 (New International Version)

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Unless you also deny the Trinity as well.

In fact, I do deny the trinity. Now lets look at John 1.

John 1:1-"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh Elohim, and the Word was Elohim."

1:14-"The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

--I do not deny that the Word became flesh. The Word is the Spirit that dwelled in the Father, then in the Son, and now anyone who is born again. And in verse 14, notice it says FROM the Father, not IS the Father. There's a difference.--

John 20:28- "And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Master and my Elohim!'"

--Master is the equivalant as Mighty. Notice the Son is never called the All Powerful Master or Almighty. That is because He is NOT fully the Father, in any way. And again, Elohim has 3 meanings!--

Also, if you're claiming that the Son's Words in the Gospels was just a man speaking, because it was not the divinity of the Spirit, then are you claiming He was fully man, without being fully God, as you say? Wouldn't that mean that YAHSHUA SINNED?! NO way!!! Yahshua did MANY works and spoke the truth and Word of the Father long before John baptized Him. That baptizim was symbolic to show us, as disciples, how to be born again. He had the Spirit with him the whole time.

CoreIssue

11-20-2007, 02:34 PM

The ISR is as much a Bible translation as the New World Translation of the Catholic Bible, meaning it isn't.

In fact, I do deny the trinity.
Yep. That was obvious from the beginning.

Now lets look at John 1.

John 1:1-"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh Elohim, and the Word was Elohim."

1:14-"The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

ISR is a doctrinal paraphrase, not a true translation. Has no weight.
--I do not deny that the Word became flesh. The Word is the Spirit that dwelled in the Father, then in the Son, and now anyone who is born again. And in verse 14, notice it says FROM the Father, not IS the Father. There's a difference.--
Modalism. Been rejected as false from the beginning.
John 20:28- "And Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Master and my Elohim!'"
More false translation.

No one but God is Lord and Master. Even the angels recognize that.

And get off Jesus being the Father. No one has claimed that.

You do not know the meaning of Elohim it is obvious.
--Master is the equivalant as Mighty. Notice the Son is never called the All Powerful Master or Almighty. That is because He is NOT fully the Father, in any way. And again, Elohim has 3 meanings!--
I already posted the ancient Hebrew meaning from linquistics. Post your linguistic source on Elohim. Which means more than an ISR verse.
Also, if you're claiming that the Son's Words in the Gospels was just a man speaking, because it was not the divinity of the Spirit, then are you claiming He was fully man, without being fully God, as you say? Wouldn't that mean that YAHSHUA SINNED?! NO way!!! Yahshua did MANY works and spoke the truth and Word of the Father long before John baptized Him. That baptizim was symbolic to show us, as disciples, how to be born again. He had the Spirit with him the whole time.
Christ was born sinless, as Adam was created sinless. The mother of his flesh was Mary, thus his full humanity. The Father of his flesh was the First Person, thus the title Father.

Adam was created fully human but sinless. God does not create sinful beings. Sin is inherented from the man, not the woman, because Adam fell.

By the way, prophets and apostles also did many works and miracles and spoke in God's name but where sinful flesh and natures, until the Church came into existence. then only sinful flesh.

Your arguments are not very good. You need proofs, not assumptions.