Esoteric - 2 Corinthians

[Esoteric]

Another quick question. Me and my daughter were doing a coloring craft this morning about the 7 days of creation. I have a question I never thought of before. On the first day God made light. On the fourth day God made the sun. What was the light on the first day or is it something we cannot possibly comprehend? To think of it it's a hard one for me to grasp for the light to not be consumed in something. Was it infinite light not contained?

The light on the first day is Christ... Just as in eternity there will be no sun because Christ will dwell among us in his Deified form, there will be no need of the sun... So here we see that Christ is light... He is the day... With him there is no darkness, no night... Keep in mind not of of Genesis is to be read chronologically... In fact it should not be read that way under any circumstance... Just as it should not always be read "literally"... Just keep in mind, God did not create man and woman twice! Hope this helps...

Mike

[a.baker]

Yes that does help.

[CoreIssue]

Another quick question. Me and my daughter were doing a coloring craft this morning about the 7 days of creation. I have a question I never thought of before. On the first day God made light. On the fourth day God made the sun. What was the light on the first day or is it something we cannot possibly comprehend? To think of it it's a hard one for me to grasp for the light to not be consumed in something. Was it infinite light not contained?

The light on the first day is Christ... Just as in eternity there will be no sun because Christ will dwell among us in his Deified form, there will be no need of the sun... So here we see that Christ is light... He is the day... With him there is no darkness, no night... Keep in mind not of of Genesis is to be read chronologically... In fact it should not be read that way under any circumstance... Just as it should not always be read "literally"... Just keep in mind, God did not create man and woman twice! Hope this helps...

Mike
First of all, Christ is a man and God didn't become a man until Mary.

And Christ is God incarnate. He is not a man who was deified.

And yes, the Bible should be read literally.

And finally, being esoteric isn't Biblical. There are no elites that gain hidden understanding and knowledge.

Saying Christ was deified isn't Christian belief.

[Esoteric]

Another quick question. Me and my daughter were doing a coloring craft this morning about the 7 days of creation. I have a question I never thought of before. On the first day God made light. On the fourth day God made the sun. What was the light on the first day or is it something we cannot possibly comprehend? To think of it it's a hard one for me to grasp for the light to not be consumed in something. Was it infinite light not contained?

The light on the first day is Christ... Just as in eternity there will be no sun because Christ will dwell among us in his Deified form, there will be no need of the sun... So here we see that Christ is light... He is the day... With him there is no darkness, no night... Keep in mind not of of Genesis is to be read chronologically... In fact it should not be read that way under any circumstance... Just as it should not always be read "literally"... Just keep in mind, God did not create man and woman twice! Hope this helps...

Mike
First of all, Christ is a man and God didn't become a man until Mary.

And Christ is God incarnate. He is not a man who was deified.

And yes, the Bible should be read literally.

And finally, being esoteric isn't Biblical. There are no elites that gain hidden understanding and knowledge.

Saying Christ was deified isn't Christian belief.

But Christ has two forms... The form of the man (mortal, fininite, but still God) and his eternal form (eternal, coexisting with God, infinite, and certainly still God)... We see the incarnate Christ in the Gospels, but we see the preincarnate Christ from time to time, including here...

As far as literalism... So then we must posses the actual cup of the last supper, in order to have salvation (after all that is the cup of the new covenant)? God created man and woman twice? An actual 10 headed serpent will rule the Earth one day? The Scribes and Pharisees were actually snakes (I thought they were men)?

Mike

[CoreIssue]

Another quick question. Me and my daughter were doing a coloring craft this morning about the 7 days of creation. I have a question I never thought of before. On the first day God made light. On the fourth day God made the sun. What was the light on the first day or is it something we cannot possibly comprehend? To think of it it's a hard one for me to grasp for the light to not be consumed in something. Was it infinite light not contained?

The light on the first day is Christ... Just as in eternity there will be no sun because Christ will dwell among us in his Deified form, there will be no need of the sun... So here we see that Christ is light... He is the day... With him there is no darkness, no night... Keep in mind not of of Genesis is to be read chronologically... In fact it should not be read that way under any circumstance... Just as it should not always be read "literally"... Just keep in mind, God did not create man and woman twice! Hope this helps...

Mike
First of all, Christ is a man and God didn't become a man until Mary.

And Christ is God incarnate. He is not a man who was deified.

And yes, the Bible should be read literally.

And finally, being esoteric isn't Biblical. There are no elites that gain hidden understanding and knowledge.

Saying Christ was deified isn't Christian belief.

But Christ has two forms... The form of the man (mortal, fininite, but still God) and his eternal form (eternal, coexisting with God, infinite, and certainly still God)... We see the incarnate Christ in the Gospels, but we see the preincarnate Christ from time to time, including here...

As far as literalism... So then we must posses the actual cup of the last supper, in order to have salvation (after all that is the cup of the new covenant)? God created man and woman twice? An actual 10 headed serpent will rule the Earth one day? The Scribes and Pharisees were actually snakes (I thought they were men)?

Mike
OK. I see the posting pattern.

Post verse proofs on your claims about Christ. Let us test them.

[Esoteric]

Another quick question. Me and my daughter were doing a coloring craft this morning about the 7 days of creation. I have a question I never thought of before. On the first day God made light. On the fourth day God made the sun. What was the light on the first day or is it something we cannot possibly comprehend? To think of it it's a hard one for me to grasp for the light to not be consumed in something. Was it infinite light not contained?

The light on the first day is Christ... Just as in eternity there will be no sun because Christ will dwell among us in his Deified form, there will be no need of the sun... So here we see that Christ is light... He is the day... With him there is no darkness, no night... Keep in mind not of of Genesis is to be read chronologically... In fact it should not be read that way under any circumstance... Just as it should not always be read "literally"... Just keep in mind, God did not create man and woman twice! Hope this helps...

Mike
First of all, Christ is a man and God didn't become a man until Mary.

And Christ is God incarnate. He is not a man who was deified.

And yes, the Bible should be read literally.

And finally, being esoteric isn't Biblical. There are no elites that gain hidden understanding and knowledge.

Saying Christ was deified isn't Christian belief.

But Christ has two forms... The form of the man (mortal, fininite, but still God) and his eternal form (eternal, coexisting with God, infinite, and certainly still God)... We see the incarnate Christ in the Gospels, but we see the preincarnate Christ from time to time, including here...

As far as literalism... So then we must posses the actual cup of the last supper, in order to have salvation (after all that is the cup of the new covenant)? God created man and woman twice? An actual 10 headed serpent will rule the Earth one day? The Scribes and Pharisees were actually snakes (I thought they were men)?

Mike
OK. I see the posting pattern.

Post verse proofs on your claims about Christ. Let us test them.

Do you really need me to lay out Trinitarianism for you? Surely someone with 47 years of experience would know that doctrine...

God creates man and woman twice:
Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 2:26

Pharisees as snakes:
Matthew 23:33

Cup as covenant:
Luke 22:20

That is just the tip of the iceburg...

Mike

[a.baker]

I have a couple of questions so I can better understand what is being talked about. So no, I guess it didn't help Esoteric, because I must of not understood what you were talking about a couple of replies back. What is deified? And what is esoteric? I agree with Core there are no hidden things in the bible. God doesn't play games. The bible is literal and thats it. It is like that so anyone who wants to understand and know God is welcomed to. So anyone can read it and get out of the confusion of the darkness. It's not there to make us more confused. Confusion from mans interpretations only leads us into false frustrations. Taking Gods Word literally brings us peace and boldness. Now Esoteric, if there were hidden things how would any Christian be bold at saying they know the truth without flinching? Just something to think about.

[Esoteric]

I have a couple of questions so I can better understand what is being talked about. So no, I guess it didn't help Esoteric, because I must of not understood what you were talking about a couple of replies back. What is deified?

That is okay! I am glad to help! What is going on here, is that for some reason, Core is threatened by me... So he is twisting my words into an attack on me by claiming in a veiled way that my beliefs are Gnostic, when in fact they are not... Deified means to become a God... He is claiming that I say Christ is a man who became a God, which I do not... What I actually said was that one day Christ will dwell among us in his form as Deity... In his glorified form... As God... Christ will not come again as man, that has served its purpose, when he does come again, it will be as King and Judge...

And what is esoteric?

It means understood only by the initiated few... Again, this is a personal attack on me because Core is threatened by me... I did not say I had any special knowledge, or or that there was anything hidden in the Bible, Esoteric describes my personality and my work, not the Bible...

I agree with Core there are no hidden things in the bible. God doesn't play games. The bible is literal and thats it.

I agree that the Bible is literal... But you must define literal... In hermaneudic terms (that is just a fancy term for how to study the Bible) literal means - as literature, as the author intended... Gnostisism (which for part of its doctrine tells us that there is hidden or special meaning in the Bible) is heresy, just like hyper-Calvinism, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, Pelagianism, etc... But what happens when you use the term literal as Dispensationalists try to? Well lets look at an example from Scripture... Lets look at the Gospel of John, particularly John 2... The Pharisees ask Jesus for proof of his status... So Jesus says "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up again in three days." How did the Pharisees react? Well, they took what he said literally and they scoff at him! "This temple took 46 years to build and you will raise it up in 3 days?" They took what he said literally and they missed the boat!! Jesus wasnt talking about the Temple of Herrod! He was talking about his body!!! So be careful what you say when you say "literally"...

It is like that so anyone who wants to understand and know God is welcomed to. So anyone can read it and get out of the confusion of the darkness.

Now be careful here... Scripture tells us that unless we read it guided by the Holy Spirit we can not understand it... The same way that Christ spoke in parables so that those who were not supposed to couldnt understand... “And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable” (vs. 10). Christ was talking to His disciples and a few others around Him. The multitudes mentioned in verse 1 were already away from Jesus. Then He said, “Unto you [His disciples] it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without [those unconverted, those He was not calling to understand], all these things are done in parables” (vs. 11). Jesus used parables to conceal, to hide the true meaning so those He was not working with would not understand. Continue in verse 12, “That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.” He used parables to make it more difficult to understand—not easier!


It's not there to make us more confused. Confusion from mans interpretations only leads us into false frustrations. Taking Gods Word literally brings us peace and boldness. Now Esoteric, if there were hidden things how would any Christian be bold at saying they know the truth without flinching? Just something to think about.

I have never said anything about hidden meaning... The Bible is very plain... But you must also agree that there are those who see the plain meaning of the Bible and do not believe anyway... How do you explain that? The Bible explains it twice... Pharaoh's heart is hardened by God so that he will not let Moses people go... Christ tells us that those who are not called will not understand! It couldnt be more plain and easy to understand, yet some people who are not comfortable with God's sovereignty (that God is God and I am not, to quote a well known song, and that he can do as he wishes, no matter how I feel about the matter) and wish to give his power to men, will do many twirls and sidesteps to try and explain away this very plain message of Scripture.

I hope this helps!!

Mike

[CoreIssue]

I have a couple of questions so I can better understand what is being talked about. So no, I guess it didn't help Esoteric, because I must of not understood what you were talking about a couple of replies back. What is deified?

That is okay! I am glad to help! What is going on here, is that for some reason, Core is threatened by me...
Dream on. Some of just recognize the posting style.
So he is twisting my words into an attack on me by claiming in a veiled way that my beliefs are Gnostic, when in fact they are not... Deified means to become a God... He is claiming that I say Christ is a man who became a God, which I do not... What I actually said was that one day Christ will dwell among us in his form as Deity... In his glorified form... As God... Christ will not come again as man, that has served its purpose, when he does come again, it will be as King and Judge...
Let your own words refute you.
Just as in eternity there will be no sun because Christ will dwell among us in his Deified form

And what is esoteric?

It means understood only by the initiated few... Again, this is a personal attack on me because Core is threatened by me... I did not say I had any special knowledge, or or that there was anything hidden in the Bible, Esoteric describes my personality and my work, not the Bible...

I asked you explain further.

You did say only the regenerate can understand that those who believe Arminianism are not regenerate because of this doctrine showing they do not understand.

I agree with Core there are no hidden things in the bible. God doesn't play games. The bible is literal and thats it.
I agree that the Bible is literal... But you must define literal... In hermaneudic terms (that is just a fancy term for how to study the Bible) literal means - as literature, as the author intended...

A figurative term that has a known literal meaning is considered literal.

You have said you are a form of Preterism. Preterism is not based on literal.
Gnostisism (which for part of its doctrine tells us that there is hidden or special meaning in the Bible) is heresy, just like hyper-Calvinism, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, Pelagianism, etc...
Everyone but your belief is heresy. So we are unsaved heretics.

But what happens when you use the term literal as Dispensationalists try to? Well lets look at an example from Scripture... Lets look at the Gospel of John, particularly John 2... The Pharisees ask Jesus for proof of his status... So Jesus says "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up again in three days." How did the Pharisees react? Well, they took what he said literally and they scoff at him! "This temple took 46 years to build and you will raise it up in 3 days?" They took what he said literally and they missed the boat!! Jesus wasnt talking about the Temple of Herrod! He was talking about his body!!! So be careful what you say when you say "literally"...

The body being referred to as a Temple is a figurative phrase of known literal meaning.

Just like calling a group 'you guys' when there is a female in it.

It is like that so anyone who wants to understand and know God is welcomed to. So anyone can read it and get out of the confusion of the darkness.

Now be careful here... Scripture tells us that unless we read it guided by the Holy Spirit we can not understand it...

That is blantantly false. It says SOME meanings require the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It never says ALL understanding.

Post the verse that ever says your claim.

The same way that Christ spoke in parables so that those who were not supposed to couldnt understand... “And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable” (vs. 10). Christ was talking to His disciples and a few others around Him. The multitudes mentioned in verse 1 were already away from Jesus. Then He said, “Unto you [His disciples] it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without [those unconverted, those He was not calling to understand], all these things are done in parables” (vs. 11). Jesus used parables to conceal, to hide the true meaning so those He was not working with would not understand. Continue in verse 12, “That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.” He used parables to make it more difficult to understand—not easier!

Spoken during the Covenant of Israel, not the Church.

Now ALL can read the parable AND the explanation, saved or not.

It's not there to make us more confused. Confusion from mans interpretations only leads us into false frustrations. Taking Gods Word literally brings us peace and boldness. Now Esoteric, if there were hidden things how would any Christian be bold at saying they know the truth without flinching? Just something to think about.

I have never said anything about hidden meaning... The Bible is very plain...

Spinning words. Only the regenerate can understand but the words are not hidden,
But you must also agree that there are those who see the plain meaning of the Bible and do not believe anyway... How do you explain that?
They don't want to believe it, just as you don't literally read and accept.

The Bible explains it twice... Pharaoh's heart is hardened by God so that he will not let Moses people go... Christ tells us that those who are not called will not understand! It couldnt be more plain and easy to understand, yet some people who are not comfortable with God's sovereignty (that God is God and I am not, to quote a well known song, and that he can do as he wishes, no matter how I feel about the matter) and wish to give his power to men, will do many twirls and sidesteps to try and explain away this very plain message of Scripture.

Where? Post the verses that says only those called are saved.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

[Esoteric]

I asked you explain further.

You did say only the regenerate can understand that those who believe Arminianism are not regenerate because of this doctrine showing they do not understand.

Let my words vindicate me... I said that it explains my personality, because I am very difficult to understand until you get to know me, and that it describes my work because I am a lighting designer...

But you didnt want to hear that because it makes it harder to villify me...

A figurative term that has a known literal meaning is considered literal.

So again, were the Pharisees snakes or men?

Everyone but your belief is heresy. So we are unsaved heretics.

Teaching heresy does not make you unsaved... You could be saved and just in rebellion to God... Justification does not always equal sanctification... Just as Baptized does not always equal regenerate...

That is blantantly false. It says SOME meanings require the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It never says ALL understanding.

Post the verse that ever says your claim.

I already did... Mark 4:11-12 makes it VERY clear...

Spoken during the Covenant of Israel, not the Church.

Now ALL can read the parable AND the explanation, saved or not.

Israel is the Church... The NC is just an extension or type (Greek typos) for the AC... Just as Solomon's temple was a type of the true temple, Christ Jesus... Hebrews tells us that all in the Old was a shadow of the new... All can read, but only those with the Spirit can understand...

They don't want to believe it, just as you don't literally read and accept.

Jesus said they cant understand... It isnt about want... Or else you are saying that if I want it bad enough then I will be saved? Now that IS heresy, no matter who you ask... So, which is it?

Where? Post the verses that says only those called are saved.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”

This begs the question does God choose everyone?



If God acts first, and some people go to hell then that means either


God doesn't act on everyone
God's act doesn't save, it just prompts us to save ourselves. We know #2 is false, so it must be #1

Back to John 6:37 “All that the Father gives will come to me and none will be cast out.” This verse either means all people will be saved, or it means some will be saved. We know all will not be saved, so it must mean some. But who does it say will come? “Those the Father gives.”

John 6:65 "No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Pretty clear, eh?

Mike

[Jessie]

quote:
And what is esoteric?

It means understood only by the initiated few... Again, this is a personal attack on me because Core is threatened by me... I did not say I had any special knowledge, or or that there was anything hidden in the Bible, Esoteric describes my personality and my work, not the Bible...


what kindof nonsense is that? your arrogence is showing badly.

[CoreIssue]

I am not answering your rehetorical or insulting questions. Stop treating us as stupid.

Understand, the games you are playing are not welcome here.

Everyone but your belief is heresy. So we are unsaved heretics.

Teaching heresy does not make you unsaved... You could be saved and just in rebellion to God... Justification does not always equal sanctification... Just as Baptized does not always equal regenerate...

But you said being Arminian is to be unsaved.

Your games are unwelcome here and will not work.

That is blantantly false. It says SOME meanings require the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It never says ALL understanding.

Post the verse that ever says your claim.

I already did... Mark 4:11-12 makes it VERY clear...

False. I gave an alternate explanation making yours NOT very clear.


Spoken during the Covenant of Israel, not the Church.

Now ALL can read the parable AND the explanation, saved or not.


Israel is the Church... The NC is just an extension or type (Greek typos) for the AC... Just as Solomon's temple was a type of the true temple, Christ Jesus... Hebrews tells us that all in the Old was a shadow of the new... All can read, but only those with the Spirit can understand...

False.

The Body of Christ is defined as Church and Israel, two heirs within one Body. Thus they are not the same.

The New Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah, not Israel.

Post the verses where Israel is ever called Church directly. Or Church is ever called Israel. You cannot because it has never been said and the Body of Chirst confirms it is not so.

They don't want to believe it, just as you don't literally read and accept.

Jesus said they cant understand... It isnt about want... Or else you are saying that if I want it bad enough then I will be saved? Now that IS heresy, no matter who you ask... So, which is it?

You cannot understand what you will not allow yourself to understand.

Putting your spin on the verse does not make it so.
Where? Post the verses that says only those called are saved.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”

This begs the question does God choose everyone?

Dodges the verse I posted where God would have all saved from 2 Peter 3.

So, using proper study methods, 2 Peter 3 plus John shows John is not talking predestined election.

Romans 8 says all who love God will be conformed to Christ. Note the order? Come to God and he then conforms to Christ.

Now, overlay all the verses and meanings. God wants none to be lost and those who love him will be given to Christ, all of which will come and never be cast out.

Secure Arminianism. Come in freewill and Eterally Secure by Predestination. But freewill choice FIRST.

If God acts first, and some people go to hell then that means either


God doesn't act on everyone
God's act doesn't save, it just prompts us to save ourselves.We know #2 is false, so it must be #1

Contrived statement.

Plus if God only acts on some to be save then he sentences others to Hell with now way to be saved. Yea. Real justice there.

Born doomed through no choice of their own, but held responsible for being what they cannot help being.

That is a cold, cruel and unjust God. But he isn't.

I gave 2 Peter 3, which refutes this thinking.


Calvinist don't like to deal with the little reality.
Back to John 6:37 “All that the Father gives will come to me and none will be cast out.” This verse either means all people will be saved, or it means some will be saved. We know all will not be saved, so it must mean some. But who does it say will come? “Those the Father gives.”

John 6:65 "No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Pretty clear, eh?

And clear you didn't deal with 2 Peter 3.

Now, if you wish to not reply to refutations directly, then this is not a debate, but you preaching. It will not be allowed.

Deal with the 2 Peter 3 verse, somewhere, and don't dodge.

[Esoteric]

But you said being Arminian is to be unsaved.

Your games are unwelcome here and will not work.

I said Arminianism is Heresy and should be avoided... I said nothing about your eternal condition... You are the one that keeps saying you are unsaved... Perhaps the Holy Spirit working on you? *winks*

False. I gave an alternate explanation making yours NOT very clear.

What alternate explaination? I dont see it anywhere in this thread...

False.

The Body of Christ is defined as Church and Israel, two heirs within one Body. Thus they are not the same.

The New Covenant is to the Houses of Israel and Judah, not Israel.

Post the verses where Israel is ever called Church directly. Or Church is ever called Israel. You cannot because it has never been said and the Body of Chirst confirms it is not so.

Wow, for someone who demands verses out of me, you sure dont provide any of your own... Must be nice to sit on high and judge others without a reckoning for yourself... Oh wait, that will come later....

Where do you get the break between the two? Christ came as a fulfillment of the OT... He did not abolish the AC he fulfilled it in the NC... I give you the Olive Tree! I have given you this example 3 times now, and you keep asking for it... So I give it to you again.. My proof? Romans 11:17... With its support in Genesis 17:4-7, and Genesis 12:3. I cant make it any more plain...

You cannot understand what you will not allow yourself to understand.

Putting your spin on the verse does not make it so.

Does Jesus say what he means? If so, why did he not say "I talk in parables so that those who do not wish to understand think that they have an excuse..." Instead he said that he did it so that those who are not chosen of God CAN NOT (not will not or choose not) understand... I dont spin, I take what Christ said...

My answer to 2 Peter 3:

The word "willing" or as some translations have it "wishing" is from the Greek word boulomai, which often, when used of God, refers to His decretive will as it is used here in 2 Pet. 3:9. This text is teaching that the "us", "any", and "all", will come to repentance according to the sovereign decretive will of God. The same teaching is found in Matt. 11:27, "All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth [Gk. boulomai] to reveal him."

Only God can give faith and repentance to whom He wills (Acts 13:48, Ephs. 2:8, Acts 11:18).

What verse in Romans 8 are you quoting there? I cant find that one...

Free will choice can never be first... We are dead in sin.... When was the last time you saw a dead man do anything? I cant believe you are honestly saying that we choose God first? Even the Arminians I know wont go that far! Scripture is clear that at the very LEAST God reaches out to us first and then we respond... To dispute that is unthinkable... So man can save himself? Wow... Now you have crossed over into works based salvation... Unthinkable... I thought I was on a Christian board... We need to go back to the beginning... Salvation is through the atonement of Christ alone... I can do nothing to warrent this (even choosing Christ)...
Contrived statement.

Plus if God only acts on some to be save then he sentences others to Hell with now way to be saved. Yea. Real justice there.

Born doomed through no choice of their own, but held responsible for being what they cannot help being.

That is a cold, cruel and unjust God. But he isn't.

I gave 2 Peter 3, which refutes this thinking.

So you deny original sin? Now you are into Pelagianism, which is certainly heresy!! Wow... Just wow.. The way it works is that we were all present with Adam, Adam sinned... We doomed ourselves to Hell... God in his infinite mercy has chosen to save some... He was be completely just in allowing us all to go to Hell, but he loved us SO much that he decided to redeem a people unto himself for his Glory! Glory to God for redeeming even one, much less the untold multitudes that he did. Man brought sin and pain and death and separation from God, but a loving, merciful God rescued those whom he chose! You have a flawed understanding of sin my friend... All are born dead in sin, depraved, unable to choose right (Romans)! But praise to God he saves those whom he chooses!!

And clear you didn't deal with 2 Peter 3.

Now, if you wish to not reply to refutations directly, then this is not a debate, but you preaching. It will not be allowed.

Deal with the 2 Peter 3 verse, somewhere, and don't dodge.

Dealt with... *smiles* You are on such a power trip! Man...

Mike

[CoreIssue]

Dealt with... *smiles* You are on such a power trip! Man...

And you are so gone.

Typical false doctrine preacher. All talk and no proof.

You came on challenging us with proof and demand we refute you with proof. You spoke first without proof.

Yet attack me for demanding proof with more accusations of heresy.

Yep. Here to antagonize and speaking from ego and arrogance.

Bye!