Esoteric

[CoreIssue]

It is always good to know how to minister to the lost in their particular situations...

Mike
Hmmm. Esoteric beliefs are not Christian, for those who are not aware.

It is the belief in hidden or obscure knowledge only seen by elites.

[kay-gee]

But the Bible itself is an esoteric book. Its treasures are hidden from the spiritually dead. By de facto, Cristians are elitists.
all the best...

[Esoteric]

Wow Core... Nice attack... A very Christian thing to say based only on someones nickname on a message board... A nickname that has been explained...

But yes, you are right Kay Gee.. That is also the reason Christ spoke in parables... :-)

You are also correct Baker... Plus you can identify the particular beliefs that are out of line and help them to see Scripturally how they are not in line with orthodox doctrine... For example the polytheism of Mormons or the denial of the deity of Christ by the Russellites...

Mike

[CoreIssue]

But the Bible itself is an esoteric book. Its treasures are hidden from the spiritually dead. By de facto, Cristians are elitists.
all the best...
No. Esoteric means only the elite within a belief are shown.

So, within Christianity only elite Christians are shown. For Calvinist that means those chosen for salvation.

Esoteric is playing a semantical game here. Might work elsewhere, but not here.

[Esoteric]

But the Bible itself is an esoteric book. Its treasures are hidden from the spiritually dead. By de facto, Cristians are elitists.
all the best...
No. Esoteric means only the elite within a belief are shown.

So, within Christianity only elite Christians are shown. For Calvinist that means those chosen for salvation.

Esoteric is playing a semantical game here. Might work elsewhere, but not here.

Huh? Could you twist things any more? Calvinism says that those elected by God (Christians, the regenerate), led by the Holy Spirit understand Scripture... Those that are not elected by God (the unregenerate), can not... ALL Christians (those that are regenerate, not just those who call themselves Christians) can easily understand Scripture... Just as those called by God understood the parables... While those that were not called... Well, you know how that goes... Calvinism doesnt divide Christianity, is that what you teach here? Is that how you poison people against its teachings? Wow... Calvinism simply says that man is elect by God, unable to save himself... We are dead in sin until resurrected by God...

So please quit trying to twist my beliefs to your own selfish ends... Thanks...

Mike

[CoreIssue]

Huh? Could you twist things any more? Calvinism says that those elected by God (Christians, the regenerate), led by the Holy Spirit understand Scripture... Those that are not elected by God (the unregenerate), can not... [/QUOTE]
And God does not give all a chance at salvation in Calvinism. Many are born doomed to Hell.

Say the whole thing.
ALL Christians (those that are regenerate, not just those who call themselves Christians) can easily understand Scripture...
Those who are not regnerate are not Christians.
Just as those called by God understood the parables... While those that were not called... Well, you know how that goes...
Only Calvinist are saved is how that goes in Calvinism. You said those into Arminianism are not saved.
Calvinism doesnt divide Christianity, is that what you teach here?
You stated those into Arminianism are not saved.
Is that how you poison people against its teachings? Wow... Calvinism simply says that man is elect by God, unable to save himself... We are dead in sin until resurrected by God...
Calvinism says Man has no freewill part in salvation. Making many born to go to Hell.

You are spinning it. Calvinism is an elitist doctrine.

I know what the TULIP teaches.

So please quit trying to twist my beliefs to your own selfish ends... Thanks...

No. You state the belief in completion.

You SAID those into Arminianism are not saved and to be avoided.

WE are Secure Arminianist in the main, here. You came on telling us we are not saved. Now WE are out of line?

You are trying to play down elements of Calvinism to be accepted in what you are saying here.

Even with all our difference, KG and the rest of us have NEVER called each other unsaved because of their non-central to Christ beliefs.

YOU have delcared to not accept Calvinism means one is unable to see the truth because one is not saved.

YOU created a big problem for yourself saying that. It is upon YOU to prove your case before you go around challenging things said on CTZ.

[Esoteric]

And God does not give all a chance at salvation in Calvinism. Many are born doomed to Hell.

Say the whole thing.

Actually this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Salvation and Grace... We are ALL born doomed to Hell... That is the default... Then God chooses whom he will save (as it says in Acts, as many were appointed believed)... He does not doom us to Hell... Adam took care of that... To claim that God dooms anyone to Hell is a misunderstanding of the nature of God... Man doomed man... God rescues man...

Those who are not regnerate are not Christians.

Exactly!! We agree...

Only Calvinist are saved is how that goes in Calvinism. You said those into Arminianism are not saved.

Only God knows the heart of man... I am saying that preaching that man can reject God is Heresy... It turns God into a beggar, standing with his hat out, hoping that we will make the correct decision... It also leads to unBiblical practices such as the Finneyist invitation (as practiced by the Baptist Church in particular)... This does not sound like the God of Scripture...

You stated those into Arminianism are not saved.

What does this have to do with dividing Christianity? Anyone who does not believe in God's sovereignty isnt Christian... But by your standard I could say that Arminianism divides the church because you say that Calvinists are not saved... Faulty logic my friend...

Calvinism says Man has no freewill part in salvation. Making many born to go to Hell.

You are spinning it. Calvinism is an elitist doctrine.

I know what the TULIP teaches.

Your understanding of Calvinism is very flawed and basic... I would suggest you read The Institutes and then we can talk... Man certainly has freewill... Calvinism never denies this... Man chooses God out of his free will, but he ALWAYS chooses God once he is chosen first...

No. You state the belief in completion.

You SAID those into Arminianism are not saved and to be avoided.

WE are Secure Arminianist in the main, here. You came on telling us we are not saved. Now WE are out of line?

You are trying to play down elements of Calvinism to be accepted in what you are saying here.

Even with all our difference, KG and the rest of us have NEVER called each other unsaved because of their non-central to Christ beliefs.

YOU have delcared to not accept Calvinism means one is unable to see the truth because one is not saved.

YOU created a big problem for yourself saying that. It is upon YOU to prove your case before you go around challenging things said on CTZ.

I said any church teaching the Arminian Heresy is to be avoided... Its doctrines are unBiblical... I said nothing about the salvation of those teaching it... One can be justified and still in defiance of God's will... I do not know the heart of man... I simply know what the Bible teaches... I am not calling anyone unsaved... I am simply pointing out false doctrine...

You added everything else... Why you feel this hostility towards me I dont know... I am simply trying to understand how a brother can read Scripture and come up with these things that fly in the face of orthodox teaching...

All the best

Mike

[CoreIssue]

And God does not give all a chance at salvation in Calvinism. Many are born doomed to Hell.

Say the whole thing.

Actually this is a fundamental misunderstanding of Salvation and Grace... We are ALL born doomed to Hell... That is the default... Then God chooses whom he will save (as it says in Acts, as many were appointed believed)... He does not doom us to Hell... Adam took care of that... To claim that God dooms anyone to Hell is a misunderstanding of the nature of God... Man doomed man... God rescues man...
Esoteric is banned. We don't need preachers who refuse to prove anything. Have seen too many of them.

Now, here you see the typical Calvinist attempt to avoid the simple truth that if someone is born without freewill, must sin and has not hope or way to be saved because God did not pick them personally, it is the persons fault.

No way they can help but sin. But they are accountable for sin and deserve Hell.

How can one be accountable for what they cannot help being?

Is this the picture of a just God?

And what does it say about Calvinist? Are they arrogant and elitist because they are saved? Somehow superior?

Can one love God if it isn't by freewill?

Why bother with living at all? Just be created in Heaven and be done with it.

Why allow anyone doomed to Hell to be born at all?

[John Beckett]

`

Cheers, Core. :cheer:

Esoteric's heart may be in the right place, but
that does not give him the right to disregard
the rules of this Forum. And his smart remark
about you being so Christian and all, that kinda
ticked me off.

As for the Calvinist doctrine, I have to admit, they
have their points. I mean, there are many Passages
which pertain to said doctrine. But it is, as you alluded,
definitely an elitist belief.

But I don't pay much attn to doctrines, anyway. If so,
I would have never left the Church of Christ.


`

[a.baker]

Yes thank you for setting the doctrine of Calvin straight Core! What you said in your last reply is just and upright according to God. Something I wanted to add is; actually parables help to explain things better when Jesus talked. I get a better understanding with parables. People don't understand because they choose to not listen. They hear but don't listen. Hearing goes in one ear and out the other and a lot of times pride can be to blame. Listening is hearing, taking it in and acknowledging what is said and than understanding follows. So when it is said, those that want to hear let them hear, means that if one wants to hear they will listen. If they don't want to hear they will just hear. I hope I put it in a way it makes sense.

[CoreIssue]

Yes thank you for setting the doctrine of Calvin straight Core! What you said in your last reply is just and upright according to God. Something I wanted to add is; actually parables help to explain things better when Jesus talked. I get a better understanding with parables. People don't understand because they choose to not listen. They hear but don't listen. Hearing goes in one ear and out the other and a lot of times pride can be to blame. Listening is hearing, taking it in and acknowledging what is said and than understanding follows. So when it is said, those that want to hear let them hear, means that if one wants to hear they will listen. If they don't want to hear they will just hear. I hope I put it in a way it makes sense.
I agree.

Being raised on a farm the farmer parables and the wheat harvest of the End Times creates pictures that say more than a hundred words for me.

A very literal meaning.

[CoreIssue]

Thanks John! :tiphat: