Kinderhook Plates?

[roman8]

I have been doing a bit of reading on the Mormons and was wondering what the

Kinderhook plates are . Are they the Golden Plates ? Also according to the Mormons

the angel Moroni gave Smith the location of these plates . Where were they found ?

And if the kinderhook plates are the golden plates , where are they located now?

anyone have any info?

[CoreIssue]

I have been doing a bit of reading on the Mormons and was wondering what the

Kinderhook plates are .
Info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_Plates)

Are they the Golden Plates ? Also according to the Mormons

the angel Moroni gave Smith the location of these plates . Where were they found ?

There were no plates actually found. No one but Smith saw them physically, by claim.

Supposedly found on the Hill Cumorah at Palmyra, PA.
And if the kinderhook plates are the golden plates , where are they located now?

anyone have any info?
There never were any such plates.

[roman8]

http://www.carm.org/lds/chronology.htm

This is the link where I found the info, I dont understand why they are saying that these plates were found

[CoreIssue]

http://www.carm.org/lds/chronology.htm

This is the link where I found the info, I dont understand why they are saying that these plates were found
You are reading the time line incorrectly.

This is a presentation from the LDS claims, not historical fact.

There is no angel Moroni, in example. Nor did John the Baptist appear to Smith.

The purpose is to show what Mormons claim.

[roman8]

Yes I understand that there was no Moroni and the Golden plates were not from God . What I did not understand is whether or not some were made and then found , sorry hard for me to explain my confusion. Never the less, the time line was not done well . they mixed historical fact with the claims of the LDS together. For example 1967 The Original papyri Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham are rediscovered -- it was found to be the Book of Breathings, a funeral text
1877, Aug. 29 Brigham Young dies

I just was not sure what these Kinderhook plates were supposed to be.

[roman8]

I have been doing a bit of reading on the Mormons and was wondering what the

Kinderhook plates are . Are they the Golden Plates ? Also according to the Mormons

the angel Moroni gave Smith the location of these plates . Where were they found ?

And if the kinderhook plates are the golden plates , where are they located now?

anyone have any info?

I should have said where do they "claim" in all instances.
I hope I am making myself clear here. I am trying to understand where they are coming from.

[CoreIssue]

Yes I understand that there was no Moroni and the Golden plates were not from God . What I did not understand is whether or not some were made and then found , sorry hard for me to explain my confusion. The time line was not done well . they mixed historical fact with the claims of the LDS together. For example 1967 The Oroignal papyri Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham are rediscovered -- it was found to be the Book of Breathings, a funeral text
1877, Aug. 29 Brigham Young dies

I just was not sure what these Kinderhook plates were supposed to be.
There was no plates ever in existence, just to be clear.

As for the papyri, READ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=book+of+abraham+fraud), also (http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/162-8.htm).

The point is it was a funeral text, nothing to do with Abraham.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

[CoreIssue]

I have been doing a bit of reading on the Mormons and was wondering what the

Kinderhook plates are . Are they the Golden Plates ? Also according to the Mormons

the angel Moroni gave Smith the location of these plates . Where were they found ?

And if the kinderhook plates are the golden plates , where are they located now?

anyone have any info?

I should have said where do they "claim" in all instances.
I hope I am making myself clear here. I am trying to understand where they are coming from.
They are lying or deceived. They so much want to believe what is taught them they never check it out. They just accept the lies.

[roman8]

Yes I understand that there was no Moroni and the Golden plates were not from God . What I did not understand is whether or not some were made and then found , sorry hard for me to explain my confusion. The time line was not done well . they mixed historical fact with the claims of the LDS together. For example 1967 The Oroignal papyri Smith used to translate the Book of Abraham are rediscovered -- it was found to be the Book of Breathings, a funeral text
1877, Aug. 29 Brigham Young dies

I just was not sure what these Kinderhook plates were supposed to be.
There was no plates ever in existence, just to be clear.

As for the papyri, READ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=book+of+abraham+fraud), also (http://www.bibletopics.com/BibleStudy/162-8.htm).

The point is it was a funeral text, nothing to do with Abraham.

Or am I misunderstanding something?


Yes , I am being misunderstood , I realize it was a funeral text , it was an example of how the time line was mixing historical facts with the claims of the Mormans.

I will think about how I should re-phrase my question. Thanks

[CoreIssue]

Let me give it one more shot. If I still have it wrong I will wait.

The plates for the Book of Mormon and the Kinderhook plates are two different issues for two different purported books.

BoM from one set of falsely claimed plates that never existed.
Book of Abraham from an actual document that was fraudulently declared to be something it was not.

At that time period Egyptian artifacts were very popular. Some places were using mummies as basically firewood. Other uses were to grind them up as aphrodisiacs, medicine and other very weird thinking. So true and false mummies, documents and artifacts were were being sold all over the US and in Europe.

[roman8]

The plates for the Book of Mormon and the Kinderhook plates are two different issues for two different purported books.

At that time period Egyptian artifacts were very popular. Some places were using mummies as basically firewood. Other uses were to grind them up as aphrodisiacs, medicine and other very weird thinking. So true and false mummies, documents and artifacts were were being sold all over the US and in Europe.

Ok. I was not sure if the two were the same just under different titles..


So the Kinderhook Plates were an Egyptian artifact that like the Book of Breathhings, was used as something it was not?

[CoreIssue]

The plates for the Book of Mormon and the Kinderhook plates are two different issues for two different purported books.

At that time period Egyptian artifacts were very popular. Some places were using mummies as basically firewood. Other uses were to grind them up as aphrodisiacs, medicine and other very weird thinking. So true and false mummies, documents and artifacts were were being sold all over the US and in Europe.

Ok. I was not sure if the two were the same just under different titles..


So the Kinderhook Plates were an Egyptian artifact that like the Book of Breathhings, was used as something it was not?
Exactly.

Smith tried to claim it was reformed Egyptian. He lied.

[roman8]

Thanks:):

[kay-gee]

Just curious, why are you studying mormons?
all the best...

[Esoteric]

It is always good to know how to minister to the lost in their particular situations...

Mike

[a.baker]

I agree!

[a.baker]

All I meant was, that if we can have a better understanding of one's religion or doctrine and we know the bible well, we can help point them to the scripture that shows the Truth God speaks of and why what they believe is false according to what God says. It's literal proof with scripture. More of a thing for a man than a woman though. It also seems to get one to listen to you further more when you talk about Jesus if you "know where they come from".

[roman8]

Just curious, why are you studying mormons?
all the best...

Hi Kay-gee

I am studying the Mormons because where I live seems to be a major drop off area for the Utah Mormons. What I mean by that is every young Male Mormon must do street wittnessing for 2 years and Owen Sound is one of the places they do alot of it. I am approched about once a month by 2 young Mormon Lads from Utah , I just want to be more prepared next time.

[kay-gee]

Oh I see. I did not realize that they were so strong in the area. In all my years, I've never really talked to a mormon (a practising one) nor have I ever been approached by one. JW's I have. And usually somewhere by chance. Even the JW's never ever came to our door in Toronto and we lived in the same house 10 years. Not sure why, really. I think over the years they've become less pesky. Perhaps I just look unconvertible. LOL
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Oh I see. I did not realize that they were so strong in the area. In all my years, I've never really talked to a mormon (a practising one) nor have I ever been approached by one. JW's I have. And usually somewhere by chance. Even the JW's never ever came to our door in Toronto and we lived in the same house 10 years. Not sure why, really. I think over the years they've become less pesky. Perhaps I just look unconvertible. LOL
all the best...
They are around.

There is a Mormon Church about a mile from me and others up in Atlanta.

[kay-gee]

I have not seen one on this island, though I'm sure they are in Bahamas some where. There is a newly built mosque in Nassau which is cause for some concern among the citizens. Once they get a small foothold the pushing begins.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I have not seen one on this island, though I'm sure they are in Bahamas some where. There is a newly built mosque in Nassau which is cause for some concern among the citizens. Once they get a small foothold the pushing begins.

all the best...
Yep.

[pockets]

I guess this is where I get to stick my nose in.

Studying Mormonism is extremely important because they are the fastest-growing church in the world. They teach a false doctrine, they teach the worship of false gods, and they teach the worship of a false Christ. This is more than enough reason for Christians to be aware of what they believe and teach in order to counter their influence and teachings to other potential Christians and to Christians who are being swayed by their false doctrines.


The Kinderhook plates are apparently very real. They were brought to Joseph Smith for translation by the persons who 'discovered' them for translation. Which, Smith apparently did.


The plates then, of course, were lost during the Civil War. Fortunately one of the plates was rediscovered in a museum and subsequently analyzed as being a fake. Even the Mormon Church had the plate run through a battery of severe tests and concluded that the plate was made using technology of the mid-1800 blacksmith shop. The alloy was a typical brass (copper and zinc). If the plate had been a truly ancient origin the brass alloy would have been made of copper and tin.

The following website gives detailed information on the Kinderhook plates, their 'discovering', translation by Joseph Smith, their loss, the subsequent rediscovery of at least one of the plates, and the tests which prove it to be a forgery.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/kinderhookplates.htm


I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if I can provide anything else.

God bless you and yours.

Pockets

[CoreIssue]

Nope. The plates were not claimed to be found and brought to Smith. Smith was supposedly led to them by an Angel.

They are not real, never found, never seen and never touched by anyone.

As with the White Salamander claims of a few decades ago. Like Catholicism of old, Mormonism is a master of fakes, frauds and lies.

[Jessie]

very oppresive religion. have a friend who was born into it and was very angry as a child. she explained and it seems the men take all and the wemon do it all.

very very sad!

[pockets]

Hi, CoreIssue,

I'm not trying to be a pest, and I'm about as anti-Mormon as they come, so please don't think I'm pushing a Mormon forgery for any reason. I'm just trying to provide some facts about another Mormon falsehood even the Mormons themselves don't take seriously.

The facimilies of the plates are show at this web site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plates

A photograph of the only known surviving plate is shown here:
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/history/kinderhook.htm

In April 1843 some alleged New World antiquities were presented to Joseph Smith for his opinion. The six 2 7/8-by-2 1/4-inch bell-shaped brass plates with strange engravings were reported to have been excavated in Kinderhook, Illinois, about seventy miles south of Nauvoo (HC 5:372-79). They were shown to Smith because of his claim to have translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates taken from a New York hill in 1827.

By the documented write up, the plates were 'found' by someone other than Smith. They were 'dreamed' of by another indivdual completely and supposedly dug up by a group of men. If there were more than one person involved with the plates, they were all apparently aware of the forgery because the plates were made in some metal working facility like a blacksmith shop.

Documentation states the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith in an attempt to 'embarass' him by having him translate figures that had nothing to do with Egyptian writing...which I might add he did with no problem...thus proving he could translate a fake language as easily as he translated the cpmpletely non-existant one that was supposed to be on his own 'golden' plates.

By virtue of the fact one of the plates was in the possession of and photographed by the Chicago Historical Society, which is a non-Mormon organization, I would tend to believe the Kinderhook plates (at least 1 of the original 6) do exist.

This is just another example where Joseph Smith was made to look a fool and did so very well indeed.

May God in His infinite love open the eyes of those who have been led astray by the teaching of Smith and his followers.

Again, my intent here is not to be a 'know-it-all' by any means. God has given me a desire and drive to dig into any falsehood that impunes on His person or His Holy word and lay out the facts so that anyone can 'try the spirits' for themselves rather than take my word for anything.

God bless,

pockets

[kay-gee]

Great info pockets, Thanks!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

OK. The identity and meaning of the plates is much debated.

No problem on the information. There has been so much fraud and falsehoods with Mormonism.

But, as you said, we know they are frauds and do nothing to prove Mormonism. They have tampered with historical claims beyond belief.

This can be tied in with Smith's attempts to recreate suppose parts of 'devine' books and such. Those were frauds created by Smith.

The efforts are much appreciated and all most assuredly add up to the question of why would anyone believe in or trust Mormonism?

All info like that is good. Please keep it coming as you find it. :D