political ga ga

[kay-gee]

Okay, lets straighten this out. Conservative and liberal. We got a thing starting this week for The drug council, which the preacher is pres. of, and he signed me up. We're talking and I say what would you do if it was up to you to combat drugs. He comes out with some ghastly right wing stuff that just floored me. Got me thinking am I becoming a liberal? So this thread is dedicated to the telling of my story and I invite you to jump in with your observations and such.

[CoreIssue]

Good idea.

But immediately I have to tell you that it is not just liberal and conservative.

I am NOT a Repulican Fiscal Conservative because that is pro business at the cost of humans.

But I sure am not a Democratic liberal either, which avoids personal responsibility and morality.

I call myself a moral conservative. That means I believe I believe in:
1. Personal responsibility
2. People can get into problems they did not cause, so I do believe in social aid, but reasonable and justifiable, not just come and get it.
3. Enivronmental responsibility. Sure not Al Gore and Global Warming as they define it, and sure not money first. Balance.

So, there are those like me, fiscal conservative and social liberal, the reverse and solid conservative all the way around, Republican definition and liberal all the way around, Democratic definition.

Now if we can leave national politics out, Canada and US, we might get some where on this thread. ;)

[kay-gee]

Yeah I lost my last post. This has nothing to do really with US or Canada. This is much more personal. You see I was where many of you are in my thinking and maybe worse. To the discomfort of some family and friends, even. From the age of about 25 to about 47 I thought and reasoned this way politically. Shoot any body that does not think like us. Send the immigrants packing. Close the borders. I was Family values all the way man! Throw the welfare moms out into the street and makem work like everybody else. Fire the lazy civil service and outlaw any form of taxation. Then a change began in me that even others are beginning to notice. That is what I need to explore.

[CoreIssue]

Yeah I lost my last post. This has nothing to do really with US or Canada.
Good.
This is much more personal. You see I was where many of you are in my thinking and maybe worse.
Worse? Such a nice word to pick.
To the discomfort of some family and friends, even. From the age of about 25 to about 47 I thought and reasoned this way politically. Shoot any body that does not think like us.
Then you never thought like we do to even say something like that. Offensive to even hint we have said anything resembling that.
Send the immigrants packing. Close the borders.
Yep. Borders have been too loose. In the Americas I beleve we have the most lax enforcment of any nation.
I was Family values all the way man! Throw the welfare moms out into the street and makem work like everybody else.
And what is wrong with family values?

As for welfare, there is a distinction between those who have legitimate need and those who make it their life style.

It has gotten so bad we have multiple generations that have been on welfare without holding a job.

Others drop out of school and want good paying jobs just handed to them.
Fire the lazy civil service
Depends on which branch. Many are hard workers but some are feather bedders.
and outlaw any form of taxation.
No, just change to a fairer form.
Then a change began in me that even others are beginning to notice. That is what I need to explore.
OK. Just remember a backlash from a wrong position always holds the danger of going excessively to a wrong extreme in the other direction.

[kay-gee]

The more I committed my self to the person of Jesus Christ, the more this heart of stone began to soften. As I spent hours pouring over the parables of Jesus and the awesome sories of his dealing with people, I began to realize how hopelessly out of character I was with Him. The Good Samaritan Story alone should have an fathomless impact on the way we view others. I began to realize that we all are one big of humanity on this planet earth. We do have to have some kind of conscience to one another. That often means going an extra mile, it means forgiving even when you would rather retaliate, It means hurting inside for all the children every where to day that have not a morsel to eat. Righteous indignation towards the powers that be that have allowed these conditions to exist. It means wanting to make a difference in some way in my own little corner of the world! Learning to accept that others don't think or live the same way. Respecting that they themselves must decide and also bear the consequences. I don't personally believe Jesus was a social democrat or a right wing militant. He was so many miles above all of that. Isn't that where we should be looking and what our aspirations should be?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

The more I committed my self to the person of Jesus Christ, the more this heart of stone began to soften. As I spent hours pouring over the parables of Jesus and the awesome sories of his dealing with people, I began to realize how hopelessly out of character I was with Him. The Good Samaritan Story alone should have an fathomless impact on the way we view others. I began to realize that we all are one big of humanity on this planet earth. We do have to have some kind of conscience to one another. That often means going an extra mile, it means forgiving even when you would rather retaliate, It means hurting inside for all the children every where to day that have not a morsel to eat. Righteous indignation towards the powers that be that have allowed these conditions to exist. It means wanting to make a difference in some way in my own little corner of the world! Learning to accept that others don't think or live the same way. Respecting that they themselves must decide and also bear the consequences. I don't personally believe Jesus was a social democrat or a right wing militant. He was so many miles above all of that. Isn't that where we should be looking and what our aspirations should be?

all the best...
You miss what else Jesus was. Meaning the biggie... Just.

Look, I have worked years worth of volunteerism because it was right to dive in and help. I have given money and things to people and never asked for anything in return. This site exists out of the pockets and time of CTZonedit, Chrystal, ITW, lighthouse, myself and others. We never ask for anything in return. We all have given in many ways.

But you go very wrong when you go the route of accepting others regardless of what they believe or do. That does not exist in the Bible.

You don't accept those in error and nurture that error. You nurture them and help them change to what is right.

Christ didn't tell the Apostles to go on the road defenseless and give in to everyone. He said go on the road, seek souls, but carry a sword when doing it.

Christ said the strong man defends his home, not throws the door open and tells all to take what they want.

Christ does not forgive everyone. He paid the price for all but he ONLY applies it when they repent. And will send them to the Lake for eternity if they do not.

Christ didn't say do not judge. Such a misquoted passage. He says judge wisely.

So, yea, be there for others but not all others.

When the Muslims threaten do not wait for them to pull the trigger, take out the known enemies first.

When illegals want to use and abuse a country, send them home. The fruits of not doing so have been rampant murder, rape, disease, some of which hasn't been seen in generations, homes lost, families destroyed and more.

You HAVE to weight the consequences of actions before you take them. You must.

Practive mercy, patience and love. But don't be a fool who casts his pearls before swine, enables evil to hurt his family and neighbors and suppresses God's truth to not offend others.

We are strangers in a strange land. We will be hated and attacked. If we fit in unnoticed, we are doing something very wrong.

[CoreIssue]

I think this is a good thread, KG. So far at least.

It is contrasting conflicting views that do exist in the world today.

[kay-gee]

OK so anyways My preacher says to me, what would you do to tackle the problem of drugs if it were up to you. I says that's simple. Put it under governmental control instead of trying to stop it. Well dosen't he have a total bird over this. Now he calls me a liberal and calling me these sorts of things. His ideas by the way are the same old right wing things "get tough" sort of stuff that been tried for decades and failed dismally.
You see, I have always encouraged others to look a little outside the box for the answers. That is what makes me I believe a "Progressive Conservative" Progressive ideas the less obvious but working toward The "settling in" of society.
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

OK so anyways My preacher says to me, what would you do to tackle the problem of drugs if it were up to you. I says that's simple. Put it under governmental control instead of trying to stop it. Well dosen't he have a total bird over this. Now he calls me a liberal and calling me these sorts of things. His ideas by the way are the same old right wing things "get tough" sort of stuff that been tried for decades and failed dismally.
You see, I have always encouraged others to look a little outside the box for the answers. That is what makes me I believe a "Progressive Conservative" Progressive ideas the less obvious but working toward The "settling in" of society.
all the best...
Please define government control.

You mean like Sweden, I believe it is, where this route has blown up in their faces?

[kay-gee]

Put the total industry...production ...distribution and sale of narcotics completely in the hands the government. Think about it!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Put the total industry...production ...distribution and sale of narcotics completely in the hands the government. Think about it!

all the best...
Yea. A total disaster.

That experiment has been tried and failed massively. Street sweepers have to sweep needles off the street every morning.

Really hurt society.

Not to mention such a total violation of the Bible.

[Jessie]

OK so anyways My preacher says to me, what would you do to tackle the problem of drugs if it were up to you. I says that's simple. Put it under governmental control instead of trying to stop it. Well dosen't he have a total bird over this. Now he calls me a liberal and calling me these sorts of things. His ideas by the way are the same old right wing things "get tough" sort of stuff that been tried for decades and failed dismally.
You see, I have always encouraged others to look a little outside the box for the answers. That is what makes me I believe a "Progressive Conservative" Progressive ideas the less obvious but working toward The "settling in" of society.
all the best...

it does'nt work.

[kay-gee]

Yeah but with the billions now being channelled strait out the back door, you could hire an awful lot of street sweepers.
all the best...

[kay-gee]

But the issue is Revenue. Have you any idea of the monetary amount of money in the drug trade. And not a nickel falls under income tax. And with the crime element removed you now have the billions in saving from the futile effort to fight it. Scrap the DEA and the others. Redirect the manpower to other issues of national security. With the Revenue cash cow you would now have, you could go a long way to financing a national health insurance system for the common citizens. Financied by volunteer revnue in the same way as folks buy lottery tickets and cigarettes.
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Yeah but with the billions now being channelled strait out the back door, you could hire an awful lot of street sweepers.
all the best...
That answer doesn't even merit a serious reply, KG.

[CoreIssue]

But the issue is Revenue. Have you any idea of the monetary amount of money in the drug trade. And not a nickel falls under income tax. And with the crime element removed you now have the billions in saving from the futile effort to fight it. Scrap the DEA and the others. Redirect the manpower to other issues of national security. With the Revenue cash cow you would now have, you could go a long way to financing a national health insurance system for the common citizens. Financied by volunteer revnue in the same way as folks buy lottery tickets and cigarettes.
all the best...
And where is your Christian beliefs and value in trading money for drugs?

[kay-gee]

Remember the government is supposed to be amoral right. Isn't that what separation of church and state is all about? To put the vices into the hands of the people rather in the hands of the thugs and underworld barons, is to have power OVER the problem right off the bat. A lot of normal street crime would fall by the wayside too. It is win win. I am the solution guy. Now does that make me liberal, or some one who is practical and progressive?
all the best...

[CTZonEdit]

The government is supposed to protect its people not enable them.

You believe in way too much government control over something that is just morally unacceptible and detrimental to a society.

You need to address why people are more apt to use drugs in the first place and offer help in these areas. Not to continue to enable them because they are addicts by opening government controlled narcotic distribution offices.

Government amoral? I forgot you werent an American so it's no wonder you don't understand the foundations here. And you are wrong on church and state as well.

You cant run a society amorally. Every one that has tried has fallen or is falling now. The USA is on this same path unfortunately, less God = godless people.

Look at the history of people and societies turning their backs on God and show me one thats flourshing today.

[kay-gee]

I attended the first of the three sessions westurday for the drug council. These people don't seem like they could even go for de-criminalizing small possession, so I don't think my proposal will fly. I'll bring it up today.

all the best...

[CTZonEdit]

And it shouldnt fly.

Do you not see how those countries that have done what you are suggesting have faired by government controlling illegal activities such as narcotics and prostitution?

[Jessie]

are you a user yourself?

what benifit would it provide to legalize this garbage?

[kay-gee]

I was once, but no longer. I'm seeking a seat on this board so I can help in this problem. I say de-crim for small amounts hasish or marijuana but stiffen for the other stuff and really hit the dealers.
all the best...

[kay-gee]

You have to understand that The Bahamas is still a very Christian country ( in so far as one can define Christian country). It is the state recognized religion and figures high in public life. Even this drug council session opened and closed with prayer. I was asked to day to close the session with a prayer. It was wonderful to pray in public and finish with in Jesus' name. You see they have a Christian council here that acts almost like a senate and have a heavy influence on social legislation. They help set standard for school and rate movies and such. Do you remember a few years ago, sending a gay cruise ship packing from her Harbour? So you see the type of things that I believe in would never fly here. ( I am a totally committed Christian as you all know) so thumbs up to them! At the same timr though I am interested in ideas that will advance society. I welcome suggestions

all the best...

[Jessie]

KG, portland is wanting to legalize small amounts of pot.

this is a downward spiral. all for money.

when they are stoned, how many will get hurt in car accidents, you name it from all this? just for money.

sure when its not ok people still do things but to legalize it makes people think its ok.
how long before they legalize meth, herion, date rape drugs, estacy?
thats where it will head.

we know a young man who literally messed his mind up with drugs, hes no longer right in the head. hes literally schizo now.

look at holland they legalized prostitution. what a mess to live in.
what a mess for the children who have to grow up in it all.

its all downward from there. not up down.

[CTZonEdit]

The 'ideas' you believe advance society are the same ideas all liberals believe will advance society. More tolerance and openess, everyone doing what makes them feel good.

Yet when you look at history of these 'advanced' societies...where are they now? Look at what happens to these 'advanced' societies in the bible. Look at the history of Greece and Rome, Babylon, Egypt.

[kay-gee]

But I am not a liberal. I am progressive Conservative

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

But I am not a liberal. I am progressive Conservative

all the best...
When you promote thinking that violates the Bible that is not progressive anything, that liberal. And it sure ain't conservative.

That may fly where you are, but where there are Biblical literalists it does not fly.

Ah! But I forgot, we are right wing extremist.

Well, then so is Christ and God. Very extreme.

[CTZonEdit]

Why is it that liberals never see themselves as such?

Yet all of them have anti war, pro-abortion, open border, government handout, feel goody, open minded, 'progressive' thinking, pro-marijuana worldviews? This is not a Christian worldview by any means. This is a humanistic worldview, completely opposite.

You say you are a follower of Christ. Do you believe that Christ would be condoning such drug use? The bible is clear on these matters yet you wish to change the laws, opening them up and in direct violation of what the bible condemns.

How is that conservative or Christian?

[Jessie]

But I am not a liberal. I am progressive Conservative

all the best...


dude your liberal. giving it a fancy name does'nt change it.

I'm a cashier and I'm sure I can come up with something to make myself look like I'm a
busness manager but still I'm just the cashier.

your only fooling yourself.:(

[kay-gee]

You guys are the ones that don't get it. Forgive my frankness. Think it over. I left a country that I was born in and familiar with, because of it's repulsive slide into liberalism, and came to reside in a place where Christianity is state recognized and promoted. A country where certain homsexual acts can get you jail time. A country where the bible in scool is common place and not guns. This is a place much less developed than what I was used to, lacking many of the creature comforts. I am here because I value these rights and have decided to take positive action in building this society for the better. In a "smaller pond" so to speak, one with my unique abilities, can actually find a listening ear. Today I bowled them over with my presentation and not only got a place on the board but given a portifolio for the island. I intend to work at positively reinforcing the youth here and offer alternatives to drugs. So I guess while the arm-chair critics are boo-hooing, I'll be in the trench slugging. Finally found where the Lord wants me.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

And you don't get it that God does not want you legalizing drugs or giving aid and comfort to deserters.

You read the Bible figuratively because you don't like the literal words.

Being selectively conservative does not override the liberal points and make you conservative.

You have voiced far more liberal positions on CTZ than conservative.

The Bible ain't a pick and choose document.

And don't get off on this nonsense you are working and we are not. I know what certain people here have done and are doing that never get metioned on forum.

Mother Teresa worked for decades, but it sure wasn't Godly work.

Not meaning what you are doing is or isn't, just that working alone doesn't mean it is.

[kay-gee]

Granted that is true. Works is not so important. CTZ has painted me as liberal when really I am anything but. Because I have some sense of human dignity and compassion, I'm liberal? I was not always this way. You are right. The Bible is not a pick and choose thing. It is living and active. Like a seed it gets inside you and begins to grow. As it grows, soul divides from spirit, and bone from marrow. Great changes take place inside you that you can't even explain. I can't tell you exactly why I am becoming more compassionate to my fellow man, when for many years I was kinda self-absorbed and individualistic. I don't know why. Please don't hang desertion issues on me. had nothing to do with me. Not my problem to deal with. On the issue of drugs, you have no clue about my struggle with drugs. If I can save one kid from the living hell I went through, in the pursuit of pleasure and self esteem, then it is worth fighting for. Get me? I have overcome. Not me but Christ who lives in me. My mission is to encourage those who want to quit life, to keep on going. Ultimately to come to know that Jesus is the answer. He IS the purpose.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Jessie, I loved that last post. lol
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Granted that is true. Works is not so important. CTZ has painted me as liberal when really I am anything but. Because I have some sense of human dignity and compassion, I'm liberal?
Pure liberal garbage that only liberals are compassionate.
I was not always this way. You are right. The Bible is not a pick and choose thing. It is living and active. Like a seed it gets inside you and begins to grow. As it grows, soul divides from spirit, and bone from marrow. Great changes take place inside you that you can't even explain. I can't tell you exactly why I am becoming more compassionate to my fellow man, when for many years I was kinda self-absorbed and individualistic.
Don't confuse compassion with pride of tolerance. You will see Christ condemned a church that prided itself in compassion at the cost of sound doctrine and practices.
I don't know why. Please don't hang desertion issues on me. had nothing to do with me. Not my problem to deal with.
But you stated you supported it. So hang it will.
On the issue of drugs, you have no clue about my struggle with drugs.
Do not go there. We all have struggled with different things for different reasons.

It is no excuse for excusing error.

Be compassionate for those with drug problems as in helping them to get out. But do NOT ever say it is Christian to accept it as legal or okay. The Bible directly condemns drug and such abuse.
If I can save one kid from the living hell I went through, in the pursuit of pleasure and self esteem, then it is worth fighting for. Get me?
No excuse for saying it needs to be legal. Get me?
I have overcome. Not me but Christ who lives in me.
Fantastic!
My mission is to encourage those who want to quit life, to keep on going. Ultimately to come to know that Jesus is the answer. He IS the purpose.

all the best...
Right there with on that. But totally opposed to legalizing it in any way.

Countries that legalize see usage sky rocket because they tell youth it is okay to do.

[Jessie]

Granted that is true. Works is not so important. CTZ has painted me as liberal when really I am anything but. Because I have some sense of human dignity and compassion, I'm liberal? I was not always this way. You are right. The Bible is not a pick and choose thing. It is living and active. Like a seed it gets inside you and begins to grow. As it grows, soul divides from spirit, and bone from marrow. Great changes take place inside you that you can't even explain. I can't tell you exactly why I am becoming more compassionate to my fellow man, when for many years I was kinda self-absorbed and individualistic. I don't know why. Please don't hang desertion issues on me. had nothing to do with me. Not my problem to deal with. On the issue of drugs, you have no clue about my struggle with drugs. If I can save one kid from the living hell I went through, in the pursuit of pleasure and self esteem, then it is worth fighting for. Get me? I have overcome. Not me but Christ who lives in me. My mission is to encourage those who want to quit life, to keep on going. Ultimately to come to know that Jesus is the answer. He IS the purpose.

all the best...

how would legalizing drugs help anyone? you say if you could save one kid from the living hell you went thru...... well, right now for the last 10 yrs or more out here we even have churches giving out needles to stop infections. has it helped? NO!
its gotten worse.

I'm telling you you can not have compassion without the truth.
you will not be a help to anyone in the long haul.
because the truth sets us free. does that mean go to the other end and be stern,
mean and all that no. but there has to be boundries. take those away and one has a huge mess.

I'm not trying to be mean.

but you are liberal.

you can encourage people to go on with life that are ready to give up.
thats a noble thing, but you can not get them there the right way if its not done Gods way. then all you have is your "good" works and He wont accept that.
so by example you are leading people away from the very thing you say you want to lead them to.

[kay-gee]

So Jessie, Where exactly do you fall in the political spectrum? Curious

all the best...

[Jessie]

what do you mean?

[kay-gee]

Are you right of centre, left of centre or dead centre on political opinions and issues?

all the best...

[Jessie]

I'm pretty much where the others here are.

[CoreIssue]

This whole idea of their being a center is myth to me.

I don't see people on a line chart, but a huge 3D sphere chart with no big mass in agreement at a center.

[kay-gee]

Somethings are entrenched belief patterns from way way back in your life. Other things ebb and flow as you begin to apply reason and logistics. I have tightened up on some things and slackened a little on others. That is just personal evolution.
I am conservative in the sense that I believe in the individual responsibility. The buck stops with you no matter what. You can blame family and society only so long. You are in the captain seat of your own life. I'm a bit liberal in that I don't believe someones whole life should be thrown down the crapper because of a mistake, or because of economic standing. But after we have done every thing as a society to equalize the playing field for you, it is up to you to thrive. Thats it.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Somethings are entrenched belief patterns from way way back in your life. Other things ebb and flow as you begin to apply reason and logistics. I have tightened up on some things and slackened a little on others. That is just personal evolution.
Agree on the principle.
I am conservative in the sense that I believe in the individual responsibility. The buck stops with you no matter what. You can blame family and society only so long. You are in the captain seat of your own life.
Yep.
'm a bit liberal in that I don't believe someones whole life should be thrown down the crapper because of a mistake, or because of economic standing. But after we have done every thing as a society to equalize the playing field for you, it is up to you to thrive. Thats it.

all the best...
Exactly what makes you think that is a liberal principle?

The most unforgiving people I have ever known, as a group mentality, have been liberals.

[kay-gee]

Yes the leftist crowd are often the most violent, and non-tolerant. That is why I cannot bring myself to associate with them. I am a believer in peace, order and good government.
all the best...

[kay-gee]

I guess I am a centre-ist, or gravitating toward that spot. That is kinda like "pole position". You can get a jump on the issues from the get-go cause you can see the absurdities of the right and of the left at the same time.
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I guess I am a centre-ist, or gravitating toward that spot. That is kinda like "pole position". You can get a jump on the issues from the get-go cause you can see the absurdities of the right and of the left at the same time.
all the best...
Just best to avoid the labels, since they rarely work.

I tell people who insist I am a moral conservative. Always good for a blank look. :aah:

[kay-gee]

Perhaps I should have asked my abortion question here. After all it is political ga ga. Don't we ever learn anything? Politics is about Power!!! Pure and simple. They will tell one group of people something, and then another group, something totally contradictory. What ever it takes to get elected. I don't think there has ever been one president who tossed about in his bed at night over aborted babies. When was Roe v wade anyway? late 60's ...early 70's...anyway the Supreme court has spoken!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Perhaps I should have asked my abortion question here. After all it is political ga ga. Don't we ever learn anything? Politics is about Power!!! Pure and simple. They will tell one group of people something, and then another group, something totally contradictory. What ever it takes to get elected. I don't think there has ever been one president who tossed about in his bed at night over aborted babies. When was Roe v wade anyway? late 60's ...early 70's...anyway the Supreme court has spoken!

all the best...
Agree on the power, but Roe vs Wade can be overturned, especially since she admitted she lied.

[kay-gee]

Then it is an issue for the court

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Then it is an issue for the court

all the best...
Congress could pass a law making it illegal.

[gerald]

Hi Kay- Gee
I agree with every one here legalizing drugs is not the answer. You asked for ideas to help. I really think Dr. Dobson is a pioneer in this field. Find out who the people are that are supose to be leading. I find that our so called leaders are no longer leaders but followers.If you know what I mean. You are in a unique position to really make a difference. You can get your group of people to write letters to these leaders/followers and get them to Lead like they were intended to do.Get them to be more visible and speak out to our youth.Make them accountable for the leadership they hold.I think if all Christians did this we would see a big change in attitudes in our youth and in the culture we live in. Not so much in making laws but just being a leader and and being accountable for being a leader.We need to teach our leaders how to lead.
In Gods Love
Jerry

[John Beckett]

`

The sad thing is, HARDLY ANY of my fellow
Brethren in here will like my personal opinion
on politics/politicians, but here it is, regardless .....

Politicians can do whatever they want. Why should we
Christians care??

This world is not our home.

It is a pit stop on our way to Heaven.

Let us concern ourselves
more with preparing for eternal life in Heaven,
rather than how we can better our lives here
in the world. Or how we can better the
lives of politicians!!

We are Told by Jesus Himself to be in the world,
not ""OF"" it!

Let the politicians and their followers do as
they will. Our jobs are to love one another,
spread the Gospel, and help out our fellow
Brethren!

Politicians are predominantly greedy,
selfish, and sometimes conniving
in nature! Are we to elect any
of them?? As a friend of mine
once lamented , the lesser
of two evils is still evil!

Thus, if you wanna elect them,
go ahead.

Not me.

i already have a Leader, and His Name is Jesus!

Amen! http://www.network54.com/images/happy.gif


John

[CoreIssue]

John, being in the world includes eating sleeping, working and being part of a community. We are not to be monks or hermits.

We can set examples by being good statesman, not politicicans.

[John Beckett]

`

The fact of the matter is, God does not need
us to vote anyone into office. However, He Knew
before the world even began that we would wind up
electing folk, even if He did not want us to.

i know He Formed governments because we are
told this in Romans, i believe. We are to obey
the government because He Made it.

ROMANS 13:1

1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there.
All governments have been placed in power by God <<<<<

So then, what does He need His Disciples to vote for??

He doesn't!

I don't vote, and i am well Provided for by our Lord.

If you wish to vote, go ahead. I wouldn't advise it, and
I surely won't do it.

Politicians, even Christian ones, have to compromise
too dang much! And that makes them into hypocrites.

We are not placed here to appease those outside of
the Kingdom of God. But rather, to entice them into
coming over to where we are by setting good examples
and... wait. LOL. Sorry, I forgot who I was talking to.

You know the Bible better than i do, and that is saying
a lot, considering how many times i have read It.

But my point is, I personally do not and will not vote.

Time is too short before our Lord Returns, and i will not
waste time getting into politics.

Love ya, Core. Even if you don't agree with me. ;)



`

[CoreIssue]

No problem on not agreeing, John. Just a bit confused on the logic.

By that it would seem we also should not witness and teach, since that is the Holy Spirit's job.

God also created freewill. So, our enemies will vote, whether we do or not.

[gerald]

Hi John
I don't know if I should give you a Godly hug or Debate you on your on your statement. I disagree with you totally. I don't have time to debate you. So I guess your stuck with a Godly hug and a explanation from this old man. Let me ask you a question. If you saw a child with in striking distance of a venomous snake would you do all you could to save that child.even put your self between that child and the snake? I think being a man of God you have enough character to answer yes. Now the snake I refer to represents danger to our youth. It represents drug abuse, abortions, homosexuality,premarital sex, alcoholism etc. All the issues that endanger our youth. I think it's worth a letter or two to those in leadership that represent us. Don't you? This has been a on going dream I have been having. A child a snake and myself. Always wondering if I had the courage to put myself in harms way to save the child.Until I read your post this morning I never new the full meaning of this dream.Thank you John. So now I have some letters to pen. I wish you well with your endeavor Kay Gee.
In Gods Love
Jerry

[CoreIssue]

Nice post, Gerald. I like the sincerity.

[Jessie]

gerald that was a great analogy!

[John Beckett]

`

Well, it looks obvious where all of your loyalties lie,
folks, because there is a Holy God Who has Commissioned
His followers to prepare themselves for eternity in
Heaven and try to lovingly entice others to join us ...

.. and yet, here you are, telling me that I need a reality
check, because I am not involved in politics??

Excuse my confusion, Brethren, but I am at a loss here.

What part of "render unto Caeser what is his" do y'all not
seem to comprehend??

In other words, stay out of politics!!

Yes, the question was about taxes, but it still means
the same thing. Caesar was the president, so to speak,
of Rome, and he had senators under him, just as we do
here in the US.

Jesus does not want us involved in politics, FOR ANY
REASON!!! You want something done?? Pray about it.

Nevermind writing to a politician.

The only time they respond is during election years.

But hey. What do I know? Right??

i am being looked down upon by my fellow Brethren
in here because i am more concerned about obeying
Jesus than I am about giving self-centered politicians
the time of day??

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Like, whatever.

To each their own, I guess.


`

[CoreIssue]

`

Well, it looks obvious where all of your loyalties lie,
folks, because there is a Holy God Who has Commissioned
His followers to prepare themselves for eternity in
Heaven and try to lovingly entice others to join us ...
OK. But it does not say that is ALL we do in life.

We also work, raise families and so on. Worldly realities.

.. and yet, here you are, telling me that I need a reality
check, because I am not involved in politics??

It is part of life, my friend.

Excuse my confusion, Brethren, but I am at a loss here.

What part of "render unto Caeser what is his" do y'all not
seem to comprehend??

OK. Now where does it ever say you cannot be part of it?

Was not the Centurian, whom Christ praised, part of Caesar?
In other words, stay out of politics!!
Does not say that, John.

Yes, the question was about taxes, but it still means
the same thing. Caesar was the president, so to speak,
of Rome, and he had senators under him, just as we do
here in the US.

And Caesar is suppose to be of the people, which Rome, at that time failed to do. They had special officers that protected the rights of citizens and who were chosen from the ranks of citizens.

Rome did have elections at one time before Caesar became Emporer.

Jesus does not want us involved in politics, FOR ANY

Is not said anywhere.
REASON!!! You want something done?? Pray about it.
So, you want to eat, pray for it. Right? Don't get a job?
Nevermind writing to a politician.
The only time they respond is during election years.
Not always true.

We just had a state Rep. die who responded to every contact he got. And worked to help people.
But hey. What do I know? Right??
Actually understand the frustration. But you can be active and get something done at times.

i am being looked down upon by my fellow Brethren
in here because i am more concerned about obeying
Jesus than I am about giving self-centered politicians
the time of day??

:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Like, whatever.

No, John. No one is looking down on you. You are an active brother in Christ whose involvement is not political. I can accept that.

Just don't knock those who do get involved as if they are meaningless in their work.
To each their own, I guess.


`
Yep. The Body is made up of many parts with many roles. :D

[John Beckett]

`

As I said, to each their own.

Thanks for that lengthy reply, Core. I actually
appreciate it. But I am not changing my mind.

I will not vote, and I do not believe Jesus
Wants us to.

I digress from this thread. In peace, of course!


John



`

[gerald]

Hi John
I am grieved that what I posted has caused you an offense, I believe God deals with each of us in a personal way.I have no intention of doing anything to alter what or how God is working in your life.Your post triggered a message to me.A message I believe to be from God.Yet you being the messenger hates the message. This puzzles me? What caused me joy caused you grief. Something is a miss. Maybe there is another blessing here that we missed.So I will share with you why I disagree. Please in no way am I judging you and your beliefs.I'm just clarifying on how I believe. With the hope it brings light and clarity to you and me. So we both can rejoice in Gods word.For me it's kinda like connecting the dots.The picture is of God. If we connect the dots wrong the picture dosen't make since and there is confusion.If done correctly there is clarity.This is what we both agree about.That there is corruption in government.I stated that our leaders have become followers. And I didn't mean followers of Christ. You stated "Politicians are predominantly greedy,
selfish, and sometimes connivingin nature!". Your loyalty is to God first.My loyalty is also to God first.I think we both are lovingly trying to entice others to join us. This is where our disagreement starts.I don't believe we are to exclude people who are working in government to our enticing them to God. If we did it would leave out a lot of souls that could be enlightened.Jesus came to save us the sinners.One of his apostles was a tax collector.Jesus said Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Does this exclude those that work in government? I don't believe that I should pray to God and then say he will handle it let the chips fall where they may.I do believe we are to pray to God for his guidance and we are to carry out our duty according to his guidance. Enough for now I could go on and on.
In Gods Love
Jerry

[John Beckett]

`

Gerald, your posts have not made me UPSET
with you, but yes, they have caused me
grief, in regards to any and all attention
you might be giving to the electing of
politicians, which imv has absolutely
nothing to do with the Mission that
our Lord has Given to us.

However, if you feel led to write to someone
for whatever reason, by all means, have at it.

Check this out ....

:tiphat: Hi there, sir. Nice tie. As you know,
I am running for governor of this state.

:tiphat:Hello there, ma'am. What an adorable
baby. By the way, do you vote?

It's all superficial, in my view. Sorry, Gerald,
but that's the way I see it.

I think we both are lovingly trying to entice others to join us.
This is where our disagreement starts. I don't believe we are to
exclude people who are working in government to our enticing them to God.
If we did it would leave out a lot of souls that could be enlightened.

Well, Gerald. Then I have good news. I did not mean that
we are not to try and entice politicians into coming to the
Beautiful Kingdom of God. However, we don't have to
vote for them to entice them. As I said, politics
and religion do not mix.

Look at our current prez. He is actually being chastised
because of his faith in Jesus. So one would consider
that a good thing. Right?? Except, everytime we
turn around, he is either pressuring Israel on the
Palestinian issue, or he is complimenting the
muslims on their religion. No kidding. He
has done that.



`

[Jessie]

`

Gerald, your posts have not made me UPSET
with you, but yes, they have caused me
grief, in regards to any and all attention
you might be giving to the electing of
politicians, which imv has absolutely
nothing to do with the Mission that
our Lord has Given to us.

However, if you feel led to write to someone
for whatever reason, by all means, have at it.

Check this out ....

:tiphat: Hi there, sir. Nice tie. As you know,
I am running for governor of this state.

:tiphat:Hello there, ma'am. What an adorable
baby. By the way, do you vote?

It's all superficial, in my view. Sorry, Gerald,
but that's the way I see it.

I think we both are lovingly trying to entice others to join us.
This is where our disagreement starts. I don't believe we are to
exclude people who are working in government to our enticing them to God.
If we did it would leave out a lot of souls that could be enlightened.

Well, Gerald. Then I have good news. I did not mean that
we are not to try and entice politicians into coming to the
Beautiful Kingdom of God. However, we don't have to
vote for them to entice them. As I said, politics
and religion do not mix.

Look at our current prez. He is actually being chastised
because of his faith in Jesus. So one would consider
that a good thing. Right?? Except, everytime we
turn around, he is either pressuring Israel on the
Palestinian issue, or he is complimenting the
muslims on their religion. No kidding. He
has done that.



`

how is he being chastised for his faith in Jesus?

he's proven otherwise.

[John Beckett]

`

Oh, believe me. He has been literally ridiculed for
how many decisions he has made based on his
belief that it is what Jesus Wants. No joke.

Not that he has done that on MANY an occasion, but
he has definitely done it, most-likely more than once.

Now maybe he was using that as an excuse, but his
critics can't read his mind. So, they believe that he
bases many of his political decisions on his faith.

Maybe I can hunt down some proof for you. Believe
me, I wouldn't make stuff up like that. I know Core
doesn't go for that, and I wouldn't be rude to you
like that, dear Sis.

:):

[CoreIssue]

Not really, John.

One who can make a decision not based on their beliefs does not have much of a belief.

But I do believe freewill choice is a Biblical principle.

Bush lost me on his Christianity claims when he stated, to Muslims, that Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God.

[gerald]

Hi John and everyone
Well John You wrote.
Well Gerald. Then I have good news. I did not mean that
we are not to try and entice politicians into coming to the
Beautiful Kingdom of God. However, we don't have to
vote for them to entice them. As I said, politics
and religion do not mix.
The good news is I never mentioned voting in any of my posts.
I was trying to pass on a idea to Kay-Gee. After our disscusion I came across this audio teaching that says all most to the tee how I feel. Can you and the others tell me what you think. It's about religion and politics.

http://www.awmi.net/extra/audio/k71

In Gods Love
Jerry

[kay-gee]

Hi gerald. Thanks for your interest in this topic.What I would like to see is complete separation of church and state. To me, a fair trade-off would be to remove ourselves from the workings of government entirely, on the grounds that the government remove itself entirely from the workings of the church. Drugs and abortion etc... are drums that fanatical "christians" like to beat in some sort of mis-guided attempt to impose our will on the broader society. Then they scream like any thing when the broader society wants to impose its will (civil rights etc...) on the church in regard to homosexual preaching and gender roles. I am all for you do your thing I will do mine.
Hope this makes some sense.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

How does one separate their beliefs from their actions?

Either they are liars or really shallow if then can, in my mind.

[gerald]

Hi kay-Gee

"What I would like to see is complete separation of church and state. To me, a fair trade-off would be to remove ourselves from the workings of government entirely, on the grounds that the government remove itself entirely from the workings of the church" Do you really think God would make this trade off?

# Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

"Drugs and abortion etc... are drums that fanatical "christians" like to beat in some sort of mis-guided attempt to impose our will on the broader society" This is a strong statement. You use words like fanatical Christians, misguided attempt, impose our will. Let me try and clarify some things here. Drugs and abortion are the results of people who have been deceived. Fanatical Christians as you portray them. Are the people who out of love offer hope through the enlightenment and guidance in the truth of Gods word. Impose our will? Christians enlighten people through Gods word. You can except it or reject it. No one can impose or force any one.
The one thing I learned when I was saved is that when it's of God it's a win win situation. God save me from myself. He also saved my family and friends and society from my anger and stupidity that I imposed on them.The Glory went to God.
I made two lists one list was of virtues the other of sins when I compared them this is what I saw. In the list of virtues produced things like Clarity,strength, happiness, joy, confidence, wisdom,peace,energy,etc. The sin list could not produce any of it. Instead it caused things like depression, stress, pain, suffering, sickness, fear, fatigue,etc. You say Gov't and religion don't mix. This is what doesn't mix.
God doesn't compromise.When we are stubborn and we harden our hearts He will leave us to our own demise so that we can see and feel the destruction we have laid on ourself. Then we can understand that God loved us all along and he tried to tell us the truth but we wouldn't listen.
Until Jesus returns we have the Church and the gov't.We need to make both work through the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God.Or except the chaos that will come from sticking our heads in the sand.
In Gods Love
Jerry

[Jessie]

Hi kay-Gee

"What I would like to see is complete separation of church and state. To me, a fair trade-off would be to remove ourselves from the workings of government entirely, on the grounds that the government remove itself entirely from the workings of the church" Do you really think God would make this trade off?

# Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

"Drugs and abortion etc... are drums that fanatical "christians" like to beat in some sort of mis-guided attempt to impose our will on the broader society" This is a strong statement. You use words like fanatical Christians, misguided attempt, impose our will. Let me try and clarify some things here. Drugs and abortion are the results of people who have been deceived. Fanatical Christians as you portray them. Are the people who out of love offer hope through the enlightenment and guidance in the truth of Gods word. Impose our will? Christians enlighten people through Gods word. You can except it or reject it. No one can impose or force any one.
The one thing I learned when I was saved is that when it's of God it's a win win situation. God save me from myself. He also saved my family and friends and society from my anger and stupidity that I imposed on them.The Glory went to God.
I made two lists one list was of virtues the other of sins when I compared them this is what I saw. In the list of virtues produced things like Clarity,strength, happiness, joy, confidence, wisdom,peace,energy,etc. The sin list could not produce any of it. Instead it caused things like depression, stress, pain, suffering, sickness, fear, fatigue,etc. You say Gov't and religion don't mix. This is what doesn't mix.
God doesn't compromise.When we are stubborn and we harden our hearts He will leave us to our own demise so that we can see and feel the destruction we have laid on ourself. Then we can understand that God loved us all along and he tried to tell us the truth but we wouldn't listen.
Until Jesus returns we have the Church and the gov't.We need to make both work through the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God.Or except the chaos that will come from sticking our heads in the sand.
In Gods Love
Jerry

very well said!

:nod:

[kay-gee]

Yes, but the church has experienced some of the finest hours of her history, in times of not just governmental separation, but in complete intolerance.

all the best...

[CTZonEdit]

Core is right.

If you are making decisions that oppose your faith, then you dont have much of it or its just a token.

[gerald]

Yes, but the church has experienced some of the finest hours of her history, in times of not just governmental separation, but in complete intolerance.

all the best...

Hi Kay-Gee
The church has done nothing good. Jesus siad
Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
You see there is corruption even in the church.it's in our schools it's in our families, in our govt's, in the police force, our Christian book stores, it's in me, it's in you. Unless we learn what the core of sin is we will not have peace. The finest hours didn't come from any separation from gov't or intolerance it came from God.
In Gods love
Jerry

[kay-gee]

No fear. The one true church is still in good shape.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

No fear. The one true church is still in good shape.

all the best...
But very small on the earth, would you not agree?

[kay-gee]

Thats Okay. It is not size that counts, but faithfulness to The Lord.

all te best...

[CoreIssue]

Thats Okay. It is not size that counts, but faithfulness to The Lord.

all te best...
The point being we are in the Apostacy of the End Times.

The Church is shrinking and will continue to shrink. As John says, of little strength left.

[Jessie]

we are told in rev that the church would have little strength in the last days.

[kay-gee]

Oh Kay

all the best...

[gerald]

Oh Kay

all the best...

Hi Kay Gee
I seemed to have gotten off focus here. For this I apologize. I was taken back at the response I got from you and John. I was merely offering a suggestion. If you do not like politics that would be your choice. If you were going to give a talk on drug addiction you very well might end up getting a similar response as you got here. Be prepared to give answers. I have been researching about addictions and found a sight that can help. It's called The National Association for Christian Recovery.I think it would help many here who are in need of help. It covers a wide variety of issues. It's well worth a browse.This article Is called It Takes a Village to raise an Addict.If you click on articles you will find many more to choose from.And a wide choice of issues to choose from.

http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/daler/takesavillage.shtml

Kay I wish I could write in a softer tone. My daughter has been coaching me to write down my thoughts. When I get a blank paper in front of me my thoughts usually go blank. This has been good therapy for me. I hope you take it in the love it was intended.I will try and work on my tone.
In Gods Love
Jerry

[kay-gee]

Tone is good. I appreciate tone. Tone gets the points across when mere words fail. My wife accuses me of too much tone sometimes. Political ga ga is about the fallacy of politics and political opinions. I wouldn't to vote or not to vote. When I am home, I vote, here I cannot. People of any stripe think there way is the answer. There are no answers. Man has no answers. I've lived through terms of liberal and conservative governments. Nothing ever changes. The rich get richer. The poor get poorer. Rights get eroded away. Taxes are increased. Any change to be made in this world have to be made in my own back yard. If I can convince one young person to forsake drugs, and focus on something positive, then I've done something. I can only offer my wisdom and experience at the grass roots level. I am not a man with any sort of power. If I were to have some power, I am not so sure I would be any different than the ones who have power now! I would be likely be buttering my own bread, at every oppurtunity. That is my baic humanity.

all the best...

[gerald]

I understand what you are saying. God set up his gov't for Israel in exodus with Moses.God was their leader.At the end of Judges 21:25 makes this statement
25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.
God ruled all the way to 1 Samuel 8. Here is when God granted them a King to rule over them. It tells what a King will do to them.
In Gods Love
Jerry

[kay-gee]

In some circles, a liberal is considered anyone living above the Mason-Dixon line

Or one who would choose an eviro-friendly car over a pick-up with gun rack in the window!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

In some circles, a liberal is considered anyone living above the Mason-Dixon line

Or one who would choose an eviro-friendly car over a pick-up with gun rack in the window!

all the best...
Yep. In uneducated circles.

You cannot get much more conservative than the Midwest and West in the US.

East and upper West Coast are very liberal. Michigan and above as well.