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eahaddix
12-12-2006, 11:20 PM
I believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=rapture). Specifically, I believe that before the 70th Week of Daniel (ref. Daniel 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:24-27;&version=31;)) or "the Tribulation" begins, Christ Jesus will unpredictably and invisibly return (Matthew 24:36-51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:36-51;&version=31;))[1] to "snatch away (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=726)
(http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5691)" the Church (ref. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:16-18;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:51-52;&version=31;)).

Now, among other prooftexts, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=31;) serves as a central prooftext of Pre-Tribulation Rapture theology. Let us examine this text more closely.

2 Thessalonians 2 [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8;&version=31;)[Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Thessalonians+2%3A6-8&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)
(http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8)
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=846) may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3466) of lawlessness (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=458) is already at work; but the one (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3440) who now (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=737) holds (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2722) it back (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2722) will continue to do so till he is taken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1096) out of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537) the way (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319). 8 And then the (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3588) lawless one (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=459) will be revealed, whom (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3739) the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

*See also 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 [NASB] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8;&version=49;) and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 [KJV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8;&version=9;).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8;&version=31;), Paul states that the removal of the Restrainer precedes the revealing of the "lawless one (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=459)" or the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) (verse 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:8;&version=31;)), for the Restrainer restrains the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) (verse 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6;&version=31;)), cross ref. Revelation 6:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%206:1-2;&version=31;)).

Now, in verse 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), Paul states that the Restrainer restrains "the mystery (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3466) of lawlessness (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=458)" [NASB] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=49;), which empowers the restrained "lawless one (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=459)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:8;&version=31;), NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:8;&version=49;)]. This secret force of "lawlessness (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=458)" can[2] and must refer to any and all sources of sin, which includes any and all humans and evil spirits. Specifically, since the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) will be empowered abroadly by Satan[3], other evil spirits[4], and many human forces [5][6], the secret force of "lawlessness" must include multiple sources of sin simultaineously and worldwide. As a result, the Restrainer, the singular "he" (verse 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;)) and "what" (verse 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6;&version=31;)), must be omnipresent and omnipotent, as in God the Spirit (ref. Genesis 6:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:1-5;&version=31;), Isaiah 59:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2059:19;&version=31;), 2 Thessalonians 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%203:3;&version=31;))[7][8].

Now, in verse 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), Paul states that the Restrainer "holds (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2722) it back (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2722)" [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), but will be "taken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1096) out of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537) the way (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=9;)]. This removal[9][10] must include the removal of the Church from Earth (ref. Revelation 3:7, 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:7,%2010;&version=31;), cross ref. John 14:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:2-4;&version=31;)), otherwise the Thessalonians would not have feared that they had entered "the day of the Lord" (verse 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:2;&version=31;)), but rather would have expected it[11]. Pursuant to this observation, we observe that . . .
(a) God the Father has no reason to direct his wrath towards the Body of Christ[12]. Any mistreatment of the Church inherently constitues a mistreatment of Christ Jesus himself[13].
(b) God the Spirit[14] restrains evil through the Church[15] and indwells the Church[16]. God the Spirit and the Church cannot be separated.
(c) Freedom in Christ Jesus[17] is essential to fulfilling the Great Commission[18]. Specifically, if a Biblical Christian must fear the loss of their salvation and/or entry into the Tribulation, then the said Christian will not be focused on spreading and defending the Gospel. Such fears promote a spirit (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4151) of fear (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5401), which is not from God (Romans 8:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:15;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Romans+8%3A15&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), cross ref. 1 John 4:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:18;&version=31;)).

Now, as an example of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in action, consider the 2 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1501)4 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5064) elders (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4245)[19] of Revelation 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204;&version=31;). These elders, who possess rewards[20], are present at the throne of God the Father[21] before the breaking of the Tribulation Scroll's first seal, which releases the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) (Revelation 6:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%206:1-2;&version=31;)). After this, the Two Witnesses will be sent to earth for a 3.5 year ministry (Revelation 11:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:3;&version=31;)) during the first half of the Tribulation[22].

As a result, we can logically conclude that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a Biblical and logical doctrine.

Footnotes:
[1] Many advocates of Pre-Tribulation Rapture theology, or "Pre-Tribbers," advocate the doctrine of Immanency, which states that the Rapture could have happened at any time after Christ Jesus's ascension (ref. Acts 1:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:9-11;&version=31;)). However, this doctrine inherently undermines the spread of the Gospel, which needs an unknown amount of time to reach a certain number of Gentiles (Romans 11:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:25;&version=31;)) worldwide (Matthew 28:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:18-20;&version=31;)).
[2] The Greek word for "lawlessness" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=49;)] and "inquity" [KJV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=9;) is anomia (Strong's #458), which means:

"contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness" [Strong's Lexicon] (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=458).

"from anomoV - anomos 459 (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK4.htm#S459); illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness" [Strong's Greek Dictionary] (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK4.htm#S458).

As demonstrated by the data immediately above, "lawlessness" can refer to any and all violations of God's Law by anyone or anything.
[3] Revelation 13:1-2, 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:1-2,%204;&version=31;), cross ref. Revelation 12:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012:9;&version=31;).
[4] Revelation 16:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016:13-14;&version=31;), 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:9-10;&version=31;), ref. 1 Timothy 4:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%204:1;&version=31;).
[5] Revelation 13:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:7-8;&version=31;), ref. Revelation 17:1-3, 7, 9-13, 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2017:1-3,%207,%209-13,%2015;&version=31;).
[6] As the leader of the "Revived Roman Empire" (Daniel 2:26-27, 31-45 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%202:26-27,%2031-45;&version=31;), Daniel 7:2-8, 16-18, 23-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:2-8,%2016-18,%2023-25;&version=31;), Revelation 13:1-8 (http://Revelation 13:1-8), Daniel 9:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:1-8;&version=31;)), the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) could be a leader of the Western European Union, European Union, and/or the United Nations. However, regardless of what positions the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) will possess, the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) will possess worldwide influence. And "influence" can manifest and function in many forms.
[7] God the Spirit is a "person" and an "it." Specifically, God the Spirit is a "person," as in possessing will (1 Corinthians 12:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:11;&version=31;)), mind (Romans 8:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:27;&version=31;)), congnition (1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:10-11;&version=31;), Acts 15:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015:28;&version=31;), John 16:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:13;&version=31;)), and emotion (Isaiah 63:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2063:10;&version=31;), Ephesians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:30;&version=31;), Romans 15:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2015:30;&version=31;), Hebrews 10:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:29;&version=31;)) In addition, God the Spirit is an "it," as in an eternal (Hebrews 9:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:14;&version=31;)) divine (2 Corinthians 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:17;&version=31;)) spirit (John 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%204:24;&version=31;)) which possesses omnipotence (Luke 1:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:35;&version=31;)), omnipresence (Psalms 139:7-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20139:7-10;&version=31;)), and omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:10-11;&version=31;)).

As a rhetorical philosophical consideration, God the Spirit cannot intercede for us before God the Father (Romans 8:26-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:26-27;&version=31;)), if God the Spirit is the impersonal power of God the Father.
[8] Many people identify other individuals or uniplural entities as the Restrainer. None of these alternatives are viable, as any further examination will evidence.

For instance, many people believe that the Archangel Michael is the Restrainer. However:
(a) If Michael will "stand up (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05975)" [KJV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2012:1;&version=9;) to defend Israel during the Tribulation (Daniel 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2012:1;&version=31;) [Hebrew] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Daniel+12%3A1&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), then Michael will be "taken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1096) out of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537) the way (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=9;)] in order to "stand up (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05975)" [KJV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2012:1;&version=9;) again.
(b) Satan alone is more powerful than Michael (Jude 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:9;&version=31;)).
[9] The phrase "out of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537) the way (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=9;)] is composed of two Greek words. Specifically:
(a) The Greek word for "out of" is ek (Strongs #1537), which means

"out of, from, by, away from" [Strong's Lexicon] (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537)

"or ex ex a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--[...]" [Strong's Greek Dictionary] (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK15.htm#S1537)

(b) The Greek word for "the way" is mesos (Stong's #3319).

"1. middle
2. the midst
3. in the midst of, amongst" [Strong's Lexicon] (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319)

"from meta - meta 3326 (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK33.htm#S3326); middle (as an adjective or (neuter) noun):--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid(-day, -night), midst, way." [Strong's Greek Dictionary] (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRGRK33.htm#S3319)

As demonstrated by items (a) and (b) of Footnote [4], the phrase "taken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1096) out of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537) the way (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;), NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=9;)] cannot simply refer to any worldly geographical segregation. Specifically, since "secret power (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3466) of lawlessness (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=458)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;)] is a worldwide phenomenon at all times, any geographical location on Earth entails being in "the middle" or "the midst" of lawlessness.
[10] The degree of God the Spirit's self-removal is unknown. Advocates of Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theology, or "Pre-Tribbers," have produced many eschatological hypotheses, many of which include a complex change of dispensation.
[11] As he had previously instructed the Thessalonians (verse 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:5;&version=31;)), Paul unequivocally told the Thessalonians that "the day of the Lord" (ref. verses 1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-2;&version=31;)) begins after the great apostasy (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=646) (verse 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:3;&version=31;)), the removal of the Restrainer (verses 6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8;&version=31;)), and the revealing (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=601) of the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) (verse 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:3;&version=31;)).
[12] God the Father would not subject the Body of Christ to his wrath directly or indirectly (ref. Revelation 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:10;&version=31;)), for Christ Jesus's substitutionary sacrifice is a propitiation (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434) (1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+2%3A2&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)
(http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1%20John&chapter=2&verse=2)).
[13] ref. Colossians 3:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:3;&version=31;), Galatians 3:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:27;&version=31;), Romans 6:3-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:3-11;&version=31;), Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:13;&version=31;), i.e. Matthew 25:31-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=31;).
[14] Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430) acts by God the Spirit (Zechariah 4:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%204:6;&version=31;)).
[15] Spirit-led Christians (ref. Romans 8:9, 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:9,%2014;&version=31;)), individually and collectively, are "the salt (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=217) of the earth (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1093)" (Matthew 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:13;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Matthew+5%3A13&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)). Salt can serve as a fertilizer, seasoning, and preservative. As a result, among other things, one can logically assert that God the Spirit restrains evil through Spirit-led Christians in many ways (i.e. Ephesians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:10;&version=31;), Ephesians 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%203:10;&version=31;) [cross ref. 1 Peter 2:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:9;&version=31;), Malachi 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi%202:7;&version=31;)], Ephesians 6:10-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:10-18;&version=31;)), a function which closely parallels God the Spirit's personal work (ref. Genesis 6:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:1-5;&version=31;))

For example, consider the lukewarm church of Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:14-22;&version=31;)). When the city of Laodicea tried to pipe healing hot water from Hierapolis and refreshing cold water from Colossae, all of the said water usually arrived as lukewarm water, which is repulsive and relatively useless (further reading (http://www.padfield.com/2005/laodicea.html), pics (http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/pictures/Laodicea.htm)). Christ Jesus used this historical reality as an illustration of Laodicean spirituality. As a result, one could logically assert that the church of Laodicea lost its "spiritual medical value" or "saltiness," thereby making this church deserving of entering the Tribulation (cross compare Revelation 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:16;&version=31;) and Revelation 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:10;&version=31;)).
[16] Christians (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546), individually and collectively, are the permanent temple of God the Spirit (John 14:16-17, 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-17,%2023;&version=31;), Romans 8:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:9;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%203:16-17;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:19;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:19-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:19-22;&version=31;)). Hence, as the temple of God the Spirit, Christians (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546), individually and collectively, represent the most potent and immediate presence of God the Spirit on Earth.
[17] Galatians 5:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:1;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:12;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 10:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:23;&version=31;), cross ref. 1 Corinthians 8:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:9;&version=31;), Galatians 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:13;&version=31;).
[18] Matthew 28:16-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:16-20;&version=31;).
[19] Biblical Scripture never applies the term "elder," or presbuteros (Strong's #4245) (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4245), to angelic beings (ref.) (http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/CONGRK424.htm#S4245).
[20] The 2 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1501)4 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5064) elders (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4245) wear . . .
(a) brilliant white (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3022) garmets (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2440) (Revelation 4:4 [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Revelation+4%3A4&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)). The saints will be rewarded (ref. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%203:12-15;&version=31;)) with "glory (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1741)" and "shining (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2986) pure (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2513) linen (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1039)," which represent the Church's innocence and holiness (Ephesians 5:25-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:25-27;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Ephesians+5%3A25-27&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)) and the saints' righteous acts (Revelation 19:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019:8;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Revelation+19%3A8&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)) respectively.
(b) crowns (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4735) of gold (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5552) (Revelation 4:4, 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:4,%2010;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Revelation+4%3A4%2C+10&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)). Saints will be rewarded (ref. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%203:12-15;&version=31;)) with a crown (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4735) or crowns (Revelation 3:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:11;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Revelation+3%3A11&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), such as the crown (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4735) of righteousness (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1343) (2 Timothy 4:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204:8;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Timothy+4%3A8&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), the crown (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4735) of life (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2222) (James 1:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:12;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=James+1%3A12&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Revelation 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202:10;&version=31;) [Greek[ (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Revelation+2%3A10&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), and the crown (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4735) of glory (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1391) (1 Peter 5:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%205:4;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Peter+5%3A4&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)).
[21] Before the Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019:11-16;&version=31;), cross ref. Matthew 24:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:29-31;&version=31;), Colossians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:4;&version=31;), 1 Thessalonians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%203:13;&version=31;), Jude 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:14-15;&version=31;)), the Church will undergo the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019:7-9;&version=31;)), where the Church "marries" Christ Jesus (ref. Revelation 21:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2021:9;&version=31;), 2 Corinthians 11:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:2;&version=31;)). This imagery explicitly invokes the imagery of Jewish wedding customs, including the chronology of the said customs. As a result, the said chronological correlation between the 70th Week of Daniel (ref. Daniel 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:24-27;&version=31;)) and Jewish wedding customs would require a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

"The Marriage and Marriage Supper of the Lamb" by Dr. Renald Showers @ IFCA.org (http://www.ifca.org/voice/7Jan-Feb/lamb.htm)
"The Rapture and the Jewish Wedding Tradition," by J.R. Lawendowski @ Tribulation Forces Network (http://www.tribulationforces.com/tfcdr/rapturejw.shtml)
"A Bible Study of the Marriage of the Bride of Christ (The Jewish Wedding)," by Jason Hommel @ BibleProphecy.org (http://www.bibleprophesy.org/introwedding.htm)

However, Jewish wedding customs require that the bride and the groom go into seclusion. As a result, since the Old Testament saints are the "wedding guests" (ref. Matthew 9:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%209:14-15;&version=31;), John 3:28-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:28-29;&version=31;)) at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, only these saints would appear "publicly" in Heaven. Hence, these 24 elders may be Old Testament saints (ref. Luke 22:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:28-30;&version=31;)) who parallel the 24 divisions of Israel's priesthood (ref. 1 Chronicles 24:1-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%2024:1-19;&version=31;)).
[22] During the 70th Week of Daniel (ref. Daniel 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:24-27;&version=31;)), the Two Witnesses will exercise an unstoppable 1 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5507),2 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1250)60 (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1835) day (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2250) prophetic ministry (Revelation 11:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:3-6;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Revelation+11%3A3-6&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), until God gives the Beast power over the saints for 3.5 years (Revelation 11:7-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:7-12%20;&version=31;), cross ref. Revelation 13:5-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:5-8;&version=31;), Daniel 7:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:25;&version=31;)). Hence, when the former's dominance ends, the latter's dominance begins, otherwise a conceptual paradox results.

Moreover, the world would not need the Two Witnesses' prophetic ministry for the first 1,260 days, if the Church remains in the world during this time.

eahaddix
12-28-2006, 09:02 PM
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/ltptrc.gif (http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/)

At the Geocities website LastTrumpet.com (http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/), Tim Warner (http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/twbio) disputes the idea that God the Spirit is the Restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-8;&version=31;) on this webpage (http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/rstrnr.html). In response, I would like to review his claims in detail.

However, before we begin, I need to make an important note. On the left side of his main page (http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/), Mr. Warner states that:

Copyright © 1998 - 2006.[...]You may link to any article on this site, but may not copy any material to another site without written permission. Permission is granted for reproducing individual articles in printed form for Church or small Bible study use. Articles reproduced for this purpose MUST be complete, text unaltered, include the authors name, and include the URL, WWW.LASTTRUMPET.COM (http://WWW.LASTTRUMPET.COM).

This is a blatant misrepresentation of copyright law. Under the Fair Use (http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/) section of copyright law (17 U.S.C. § 107 (http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107)), I am permitted to copy and past select quotations of his publicly published material for non-commercial comment and criticism. However, for some reason, Mr. Warner would have us believe that copyright law makes his words untouchable, except as printed, read-only textbook material.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/line_3.jpg

The passage does not say who the restrainer is. Pre-tribbers assume it is the Holy Spirit. It does not say where the restrainer goes when he is "taken out of the way." Pre- tribbers assume He goes to heaven. It is assumed that the "Church" will also go to heaven because she is indwelled by the Spirit.

Mr. Warner is engaging in a special pleading logical fallacy. Specifically, Mr. Warner believes that the absence of the Restrainer's explicit identification invalidates the assumptions of "Pre-Tribbers," yet Mr. Warner believes that this objection does not apply to his personal assumptions.

In reality, Mr. Warner's opening argument invalidates his own line of argumentation, thereby making this entire debate a moot exchange.

If the Holy Spirit leaves earth at the beginning of the tribulation, how could the multitudes be saved in the tribulation? No one can be saved apart from the drawing and convicting influence of the Spirit of God. Also, how could 144,000 Jews evangelize the world in seven years, without the power and presence of the Spirit, when the "Church" has been unsuccessful in nearly two thousand years with the Holy Spirit?

Mr. Warner is erecting and refuting a strawman argument. Specifically, he is assuming that Pre-Tribulation Rapture theology requires the complete removal of God the Spirit during the Tribulation. However, Pre-Tribulation Rapture theology does not require this assumption, but rather the assumption that God the Spirit's presence will be reduced by a significant degree.

However, I freely admit that the exact nature of God the Spirit's removal is unknown. Pursuant to this, I wish that Mr. Warner's objections on this matter were more finely crafted, so I could have examined this issue with a fresher perspective.

The Word of God clearly teaches in Mark 13:9-11, that Christians in the tribulation will be empowered by the Holy Spirit! And that the Spirit will be indwelling them.

I disagree. Mr. Warner has not demonstrated why Mark 13:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2013:9-11;&version=31;) requires the indwelling of God the Spirit, as opposed to a situational infilling of God the Spirit. To the contrary, Mr. Warner simply assumes that his assumption is the case, then precedes to cite his assumption as fact.

The Holy Spirit fits most of the criteria[...]However, the Holy Spirit is not typically spoken of in the neuter gender (WHAT is restraining).

Mr. Warner is using undefined sliding definitions of "he" and "what." Specifically, Mr. Warner states that God the Spirit is not a "what," yet does not define what constitutes a "what." As a result, Mr. Warner could define "what" as anything at any time, thereby inherently creating a sliding definition.

The terms "he" and "what" are not inherently dichotomous. A "what" can describe what a "he" is. In fact, all spiritual beings are a thing or "what" and a personage or "he."

For instance, God the Spirit is a "person" and an "it." Specifically . . .
(a) God the Spirit is a "person," as in possessing will (1 Corinthians 12:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:11;&version=31;)), mind (Romans 8:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:27;&version=31;)), cognition (1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:10-11;&version=31;), Acts 15:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015:28;&version=31;), John 16:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:13;&version=31;)), and emotion (Isaiah 63:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2063:10;&version=31;), Ephesians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:30;&version=31;), Romans 15:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2015:30;&version=31;), Hebrews 10:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:29;&version=31;)).
(b) God the Spirit is an "it," as in an eternal (Hebrews 9:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:14;&version=31;)) divine (2 Corinthians 3:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%203:17;&version=31;)) spirit (John 4:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%204:24;&version=31;)) which possesses omnipotence (Luke 1:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:35;&version=31;)), omnipresence (Psalms 139:7-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%20139:7-10;&version=31;)), and omniscience (1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:10-11;&version=31;)).

Nor is the Holy Spirit typically pictured as directly restraining evil in Scripture, or hands-on wrestling directly with the demonic powers.

Mr. Warner's definition of "restrain" is an unnecessarily narrow definition. God the Spirit does not simply restrain the actions of evil spirits, but rather the underlining capacity of all evil spirits itself. For instance, if all unimprisoned evil spirits could function at their full power, then the world would be in chaos and under an unpredictable cycle of conquest, even with resistance from Godly angels. In fact, the pre-Adamic war illustrates this reality in action.

However, even with this objection in mind, Biblical Scripture does show God the Spirit personally restraining evil. Specifically, God the Spirit "strived (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01777)
(http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/extras.cgi?number=8799) with man (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0120)" before Noah's flood (Genesis 6:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:1-6%20;&version=31;) [Hebrew] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Genesis+6%3A1-6&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)
(http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Genesis%206:1-6#n17)). And nowhere does Scripture state that God the Spirit stopped functioning in this manner.

In extension, Spirit-led Christians (ref. Romans 8:9, 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:9,%2014;&version=31;)), individually and collectively, are "the salt (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=217) of the earth (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1093)" (Matthew 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:13;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Matthew+5%3A13&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)
(http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Matthew&chapter=5&verse=13)). In general, salt can serve as a fertilizer, seasoning, and preservative. As a result, among other things, one can logically assert that God the Spirit restrains evil through Spirit-led Christians in many ways . . .
-Such as in countering evil works by inspiring good works (ref. Ephesians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:10;&version=31;)).
-Such as in countering harmful ignorance with the inspired wisdom of God (ref. Ephesians 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%203:10;&version=31;), cross ref. 1 Peter 2:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:9;&version=31;), Malachi 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi%202:7;&version=31;)).
-Such as in helping the individual oppose evil spirits to free themself and others (ref. Ephesians 6:10-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:10-18;&version=31;), i.e. Acts 16:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:16-18;&version=31;)).
. . . a function which closely parallels God the Spirit's separate and personal work (ref. Genesis 6:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%206:1-6;&version=31;)).

Michael and his army of angels fit all of the criteria. Regarding the grammatical concerns, the angelic army is neuter, and Michael their commander is singular masculine.

Mr. Warner is violating Paul's description of the Restrainer. Specifically, Paul uses the singular term "he" (verse 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7;&version=31;)) and the term "what" (verse 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6;&version=31;)) interchangeably to describe the Restrainer. However, Mr. Warner is using this interchangeable descriptive terminology to describe two different parties which are unified in purpose, thereby violating the very nature of interchangeability.

As a result, Mr. Warner's article should be about "the Restrainers," not "the Restrainer."

And Michael and his army of angels are more powerful than Satan and his demons, as illustrated by their winning the "war in heaven," and casting Satan and his demons down to the earth.

I disagree. Mr. Warner is employing exacting details of a vaguely described past war (ref. Revelation 12:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012:7-9;&version=31;), cross ref. 2 Peter 2:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%202:4;&version=31;), Jude 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:6;&version=31;)) to prove his point.

We do not know exactly who cast down all of the rebellious angels. In fact, if the fallen Heylel (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01966&version=kjv), the former guardian (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05526&version=kjv) cherub (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03742&version=kjv) of Elohiym (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv)'s throne (Ezekiel 28:12-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028:12-15%20;&version=31;) [Hebrew] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=Ezekiel+28%3A12-15&section=0&version=kjv)
(http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Ezekiel%2028:12-15)), desired to have Elohiym (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv)'s throne (ref. Isaiah 14:12-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2014:12-14%20;&version=31;) [Hebrew] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=Isaiah+14%3A12-14&section=0&version=kjv)
(http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Isaiah%2014:12-14)), then the fallen Heylel (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01966&version=kjv) might have unsuccessfully challenged Elohiym (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) directly for the throne. As a result, Elohiym (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) cast down the fallen Heylel (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01966&version=kjv) (ref. Ezekiel 28:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2028:16-17%20;&version=31;) [Hebrew] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=Ezekiel+28%3A16-17&section=0&version=kjv)
(http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Ezekiel%2028:16-17)), a casting down which could have included all of the rebellious angels.

Not only does the passage say nothing of the restrainer going to heaven, but there is no reason to suppose that the Holy Spirit or the Church is even in view.

Mr. Warner is engaging in willful ignorance. Paul had previously taught the Thessalonians (verse 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:5;&version=31;)) that the "day of the Lord" (ref. verses 1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-2;&version=31;)) begins after the great apostasy (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=646) (verse 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:3;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Thessalonians+2%3A3&section=0&version=kjv)), the Restrainer being "taken (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1096) out of (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1537) the way (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3319)" (verses 6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:6-8;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Thessalonians+2%3A6-8&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)), and the revealing (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=601) of the Anti-Christ (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=500) (verse 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:3;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=2+Thessalonians+2%3A3&section=0&version=kjv)). As a result, this removal must include the removal of the Church from Earth (ref. Revelation 3:7, 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%203:7,%2010;&version=31;), cross ref. John 14:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:2-4;&version=31;)), otherwise the Thessalonians would not have feared that they had entered "the day of the Lord" (verse 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:2;&version=31;)), but rather would have expected it.

Finally, IF Paul was referring to the Holy Spirit, and implying that the Church would be taken to heaven before the Antichrist is revealed, he would be directly contradicting what he had just written in verses 1-3. There he said that "our gathering together unto Him" will not occur until AFTER the apostasy and the revelation of the Man of Sin.

I disagree. My objection to Mr. Warner's assertion is twofold:
(a) Mr. Warner has not demonstrated that the word "and (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532)" in verse 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1%20;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Thessalonians+2%3A1&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na) refers to a unified subset, as opposed to a summary of a dual focus.
(b) Mr. Warner has not defined what constitutes a "coming." He simply uses the term "coming" as a universal reference to "the Second Coming."

The concept of "the Second Coming" is a traditional concept, not a Scriptural concept. Specifically, nowhere does Biblical Scripture identify Christ Jesus' glorious appearance (i.e. Matthew 24:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:29-31;&version=31;)) as "the Second Coming." To the contrary, Paul refers to Christ Jesus' glorious appearing (i.e. Matthew 24:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:29-31;&version=31;)) as a "second (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1208&version=kjv) appearance (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3700&version=kjv)" (Hebrews 9:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:28;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi?word=Hebrews+9%3A28&section=0&version=kjv)
(http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Hebrews&chapter=9&verse=28)) one time.

This distinction between "coming (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3952&version=kjv)" and "appearance (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3700&version=kjv)" is critical. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is an unseen coming of Christ Jesus to resurrect and gather believers only (ref. Matthew 24:36-51 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:36-51;&version=31;), 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:16-17;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:51-52;&version=31;)), not an appearance of the glorified Christ Jesus and his glorified saints to the whole world (ref. Matthew 24:29-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:29-31;&version=31;), Revelation 19:11-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2019:11-16;&version=31;), Colossians 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:4;&version=31;), 1 Thessalonians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%203:13;&version=31;), Jude 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%201:14-15;&version=31;)). As a result, the "there are not three comings of Jesus" argument is not a valid argument against Pre-Tribulation Rapture theology.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/line_3.jpg

Now, I will not address how Mr. Warner correlates Michael's Old Testament activities with his New Testament activities, since Mr. Warner's basic negative objections and positive premises do not stand under strict scrutiny, as demonstrated by the material immediately above. However, as soon as Mr. Warner corrects this basic shortcoming, then I will go deeper into the eschatological realm in general.

Therefore, in having completed this review, we should note that Mr. Warner's objections are not really substantive objections. To the contrary, Mr. Warner attempts to avoid the obvious with bad logic, unexplained and unjustified presuppositions, and petty objections. In fact, with all due respect to Mr. Warner, Mr. Warner's response is essentially a "Nu-huh!" denial.

As a "catch-all" note, if you feel that I missed something important or did not address something which interests you, then feel free to send me a PM or simply reply to this post.

Chrystalwuzhere
12-29-2006, 02:44 PM
Excellent, most excellent, Lucky!

Jessie
12-30-2006, 01:35 AM
I know awhile back you explained what a strawman was.
can you remind me??? sorry :blush:

Chrystalwuzhere
12-30-2006, 01:07 PM
Bump

eahaddix
12-30-2006, 04:23 PM
I know awhile back you explained what a strawman was.
can you remind me??? sorry :blush:

:): No problem, Jessie. A strawman logical fallacy is the tactic of misrepresenting the opposing viewpoint's position and attacking the said misrepresentation, while the opposing viewpoint's real position remains unchallenged (further reading (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html)).

The strawman logical fallacy usually represents a cheap attempt at a "gotcha."

CoreIssue
12-30-2006, 04:34 PM
This is good timing the throw in an example.

MHz believes in Universal Salvation, Christ is not God incarnate and other erroneous doctrines.

When verses are pointed out that do not agree with him he will jump to other verses, quote them, redefine terms and put a spin on it that has nothing to do with the verses that refute him.

That is one example of a strawman argument.

Or, with Posties, when Revelation 3:10 is quoted. They jump to verses where someone was 'kept from' something but remained on the earth and demand that means Revelation 3:10 does not say Rapture.

False argument since kept from means physical removal from the place of the issue, not the earth. So, when was local, in early issues, being kept from a city is being kept from while remaining on the planet. But when the whole planet is the place of issue one must be removed from the planet to be kept from the issue.

As Luck said, it is a false argument that attempts to dodge the issues against them.

Jessie
12-30-2006, 11:50 PM
thanks guys!

eahaddix
07-28-2007, 07:42 PM
:relax: "Bump."