The Incarnation

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I thought this was too big and important a subject to be discussed in the Shoutbox. So, I'm opening a thread here where we can discuss it thoroughly.

I told my cousin that Jesus was not the Son prior to the incarnation, and she looked at me with the most incredulous look on her face. It blew her mind. Many, many people really do not know this.

Let's discuss it.

:p

[Chrystalwuzhere]

Psssst.... discussing this puts the sacrafice Jesus made in a much clearer and stronger perspective. The contrast is gleaming!!!

[CoreIssue]

I think the best kick of is in John 1.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=31#fen-NIV-26049d)] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Word, Logos, in the Greek meaning the reason behind, the source.

Was with God is a uniplural. So the Word was with the First and Third Persons of the Godhead.

Word was God. Not only with God, but was God, in the beginning. A Trinity statement.

The Word is the Second Person of the Godhead.

Through him all things were made references, in part, back to Genesis. There we see God said Let Us, another Trinity statement, do creation.

So, the Word was with God, was God and through him all things were made. And God made all things.

Therefore the Word was a personage of the Godhead.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Here is key, since it answers the question of when God, the Word, became flesh, the incarnation.

He did so when he came to dwell among us, when born of Mary.

And that is further reinforced by Christ being called a man, being called God and being called both man and God, as in Lord and King.

The Second Person became the Son, at the incarnation, by taking on human flesh.

Did he cease to be God? No.

God is spirit. His spirit did not merge into the flesh, anymore than our spirits are merged with our flesh. Flesh is a shell to hold what and who were are.

So, Christ took on a flesh life, remaining fully God in his spirit.

Which, also says his flesh is fully man.

But the mind is where the flesh and spirit comingle and work together. So, in his mind he is both God and man.

Indeed, the incarnation is misunderstood by many, if not most.

A failure is in not understanding that, in the Hebrew and Greek, a sure promise was spoken of as if it were and present day reality.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I've heard preachers and teachers say that He became lower than the other two by coming in the form of human flesh. Could you touch on that a little?

[CoreIssue]

I've heard preachers and teachers say that He became lower than the other two by coming in the form of human flesh. Could you touch on that a little?
I am not sure of the full context they said or meant.

In his divine essence, he never diminished one spec from being fully equal with the other two.

That kind of argument would make the Father the most powerful, the Son second most and the Holy Spirit the least.

When he took on flesh, God set aside the usage of his dinity, he did not cast it off or loose anything.

We cannot comprehend that, but he literally set aside his divine wisdom, knowledge, power and all else, down to the level or functioning like a human.

He did truly live like a human being.

But, when he ascended, the Father had him sit down on the Throne of God, beside him.

That was not an elevation, but a restoration.

Yet, at the same time, he did not cease to be a man.

When he stands before the Father, pleading our case, he presents his human sacrifice.

When he judges, he judges as God who has earned the right through his human sacrifice.

Some things Christ now does are purely divine, some purely human and some a combo of both.

We cannot comprehend exactly what he is now.

The closest we can come to understanding is, for those who feel it or are aware of it, is that we know we are one person, but are very aware of the distinctions between our spirit, flesh and mind. Very aware.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I've tried so hard to get a picture of what God appeared like before the incarnation, with the 3 being one, and honestly, my mind is too finite and limited. I think that's why it's called a mystery.

Even now, I'm attempting to fully grasp it 100%...just get one little glimpse....and, nope. I mean, I understand this concept, it's just hard to completely span all that this entails.

People try to figure out... are they three individual people? Are they three aspects of the same person? Whoa...just blows the mind.

[CoreIssue]

I've tried so hard to get a picture of what God appeared like before the incarnation, with the 3 being one, and honestly, my mind is too finite and limited. I think that's why it's called a mystery.
First off, we don't know what God looks like, on the throne now.

God can take any form he wants. So is there a 'the' form he is in more often than not? We won't know until eternity.

Look at the 4 living creatures. You know what I believe they are. They sure don't look human.

And I don't think the Father or Holy Spirit look any different, now, than they did then.

But could they have been more formless, then, choosing to adopt a form at some time past? Maybe. Don't know.

The only person of the Godhead that has a fixed basic shape is Christ. But even there you see he appears with some differences at differient times, as in skin and eye color.

Even now, I'm attempting to fully grasp it 100%...just get one little glimpse....and, nope. I mean, I understand this concept, it's just hard to completely span all that this entails.

Not going to happen. How do you give shape to one who can be whatever shape they want to be?
People try to figure out... are they three individual people? Are they three aspects of the same person? Whoa...just blows the mind.
Aspects is modalism.

No. The Bible is VERY clear. They are three absolutely distinct persons who are absolutely equal in all ways, in their divinity.

NO chance, Biblically to be anything else.

[Chrystalwuzhere]

People try to figure out... are they three individual people? Are they three aspects of the same person? Whoa...just blows the mind.
Aspects is modalism.

No. The Bible is VERY clear. They are three absolutely distinct persons who are absolutely equal in all ways, in their divinity.

NO chance, Biblically to be anything else.

I agree, but still, I have heard people pose those questions I listed above. Their mind just turns it over, and over, and over trying to figure it out.

I remember the first time I knew for absolute CERTAIN that the trinity was true.... it was when I read the scripture:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."


Whoa! I mean, I had always been taught about the Trinity, but when I read that, I believed it completely.

I'm sitting here thinking about this.... three that are the same, yet separate and equal distinct individuals. I still can't completely put my mind around it. I know it's true...but trying to absorb it all, well, my mind hits a brick wall.

[CoreIssue]

Same in nature, quality, wisdom, power, etc. Identical.

But distinct in personage.

That is the short hand I use.