MHz - What is Christ?

[CoreIssue]

You deny he is God incarnate.

So, exactly WHAT is Christ if not God?

I don't want verses or or jumping elsewhere. I want a direct, pointed, clearly stated, as in angel, human being, God, a god or another kind of heavenly being.

[MHz]

He is a who not a what.
I have a better idea, let's compare notes after He has come back.

Have faith in God

[CoreIssue]

He is a who not a what.
I have a better idea, let's compare notes after He has come back.

Have faith in God
Yea. I knew you wouldn't come out and say it straight.

You reject he is God incarnate.

OK. Until you answer this question directly and honestly, no more comments anywhere else.

If you cannot answer honestly here, you cannot debate truthfully anywhere. Which has become obvious to all of us over time.

[MHz]

Should be He not he.
"The only begotten son of the one and only God, the Holy Spirit is what makes God's spoken word become reality. He was alive with God before anything at all was created."

[kay-gee]

A very good answer. I still don't see what the problem is. What am I missing? Help me....all the best....

[CTZonEdit]

Because what he is saying is nonsense.

For him to admit who he believes Christ is will for sure reveal he is way out on the fringe belief. Making him a cult which is a label he wants to avoid.

He was told not to post verses and directly answer instead he has dodged TWICE a simple question any orthodox Christian should be able to answer. Instead he is playing games.

And its not because he doesnt know or hasnt studied it. He knows what he knows is fringe cult nonsense.

[CoreIssue]

CTZ is dead on, KG.

Are you not paying attention? I have said it clearly, more than once.

MHz rejects that Christ is God incarnate. He rejects the Trinity. He rejects that the Holy Spirit is a person of the Godhead.

There is no God being the person of the Father, person of the Son and person of the Holy Spirit, together, to MHz. To him God is ONE singular person, being, not a unity of three. Christ is something else. So is the Holy Spirit.

[MHz]

Because what he is saying is nonsense.

For him to admit who he believes Christ is will for sure reveal he is way out on the fringe belief. Making him a cult which is a label he wants to avoid.

He was told not to post verses and directly answer instead he has dodged TWICE a simple question any orthodox Christian should be able to answer. Instead he is playing games.

And its not because he doesnt know or hasnt studied it. He knows what he knows is fringe cult nonsense.
The question was posted in post #1 and #3, it was answered in post #4, again, matter of fact it was posted before the question was asked post #177 at 05-30-2007, 02:33 AM on one of the locked threads.

Don't be fooled into thinking that I am even replying to have your 'restriction' lifted. This was my last visit anyway. I probably should have left for good the first time I parted from this site for a few months. I you don't think your comment about Christ taking you to Heaven (in the pre-trib thing) as some sort of reward put you is a light that (well, not good is he polite way to put it). The gift of Grace is a reward in that not all receive grace, and some can lose that gift.

Don't forget Core, you invited me to this site from another board, apparently we should have had our discussions there, or better yet at GLP of some neutral site.

[CoreIssue]

The question was posted in post #1 and #3, it was answered in post #4, again, matter of fact it was posted before the question was asked post #177 at 05-30-2007, 02:33 AM on one of the locked threads.

No. You dodged. You did not say what kind of being Christ is. You gave his title.

For all I know you could mean God gave birth to him physically from what you said.
Don't be fooled into thinking that I am even replying to have your 'restriction' lifted.
No. I think you were continuing to try to present your doctrine, without answering questions.
This was my last visit anyway. I probably should have left for good the first time I parted from this site for a few months.
Your choice.

But the dodging questions has to end.
I you don't think your comment about Christ taking you to Heaven (in the pre-trib thing) as some sort of reward put you is a light that (well, not good is he polite way to put it).
Never will you find I said it is a gift anywhere. Nor is it earned.

It is God's weighing out how to deal with Man.

The gift of Grace is a reward in that not all receive grace, and some can lose that gift.

Grace is not a reward. Rewards are earned. Grace is not, since it is no longer grace then.

Grace is open to all. But not all accept it.

None loose it. Now you attach works to staying saved. Roman 8 says otherwise.
Don't forget Core, you invited me to this site from another board, apparently we should have had our discussions there, or better yet at GLP of some neutral site.MHz, if you were not banned Christine would have banned you. She banned people with a lot more Biblical beliefs than yours for not agreeing with her.

Neutral site? No such thing.

Not sure which site you mean when you say GLP.

You just want to preach, MHz. You never gave me the source for your method of reading and interpreting. Just declared it Biblical, when it is no where to be found in the Bible.

That is the problem with all the conversations. You never provided proof for anything. Just make declarations based on a reading style you also could not give justification for.

There can be no discussion without a common understanding of how to read and interpret. That requires showing proof you method is valid.

You never did.

[kay-gee]

MHz don't go. We can make this work. I still think we're bogging down on words. This is what the bible tells us not to do! I believe you to mean that Christ is the son of God, and that is what He is......all the best..........

[MHz]

For all I know you could mean God gave birth to him physically from what you said.

Scripture doesn't say how He was begotten, only that He is unique in that He is the only one that God has said that about 'through Scripture'.

[CoreIssue]

MHz don't go. We can make this work. I still think we're bogging down on words. This is what the bible tells us not to do! I believe you to mean that Christ is the son of God, and that is what He is......all the best..........
But he DOES not mean the Son of God in the same way you do.

All saints are Sons of God by adoption.

Christ is the Son of God by creation of his humanity.

MHz REJECTS he is God incarnate, the Son of God in his humanity, not his divinity (which MHz rejects).

Surely, KG, you understand how critical that point is.

The Bible forbides us accomodating denial of divinity.

[kay-gee]

Poured over some previous posts by MHz. Nothing suggests to me a cult like belief system. I think the trouble comes with the ability to express. Words get mis-construed so easily. The tongue can cause forest fires (James)...........all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Poured over some previous posts by MHz. Nothing suggests to me a cult like belief system. I think the trouble comes with the ability to express. Words get mis-construed so easily. The tongue can cause forest fires (James)...........all the best.........
Then you need to read again.

MHz will say salvation is by grace and then turn around and tell you if you do not keep certain laws you are going to Hell. That is works.

He directly denies the Trinity. That is cult.

He denies Christ is God incarnate. That is cult.

He will not even tell you what Christ is when asked. He only say he is eternal with God, but not God.

He will not say the Holy Spirit is God either. But has called him the Throne of God, in one place.

He redefines grace as God accepting works God demands of us for salvation.

Now, if salvation by by works, denying the Trinity and denying the divinity of Christ isn't cult, then what is?

God condemns PC. We are commanded to defend sound doctrine.


1 Timothy 1:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
1 Timothy 1:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 1 Timothy 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 Timothy 6:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
[ Love of Money ] If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
1 Timothy 6:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 1 Timothy 6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=6&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
2 Timothy 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=31&context=context) (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=62&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Titus 1:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=1&verse=9&version=31&context=verse)
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Titus 1:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=1&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Titus 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Titus 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=2&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)
[ What Must Be Taught to Various Groups ] You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
Titus 2:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=2&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Titus 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=63&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

[kay-gee]

I am sure i have said it before but it bears repeating. Everyones doctrine is sound doctrine in their own mind. I can not discern sound from unsound until I have considered all the angles and viewpoints. To dis-allow reasonable discourse of ideas, is it self "cult-like", and dangerous in my opinion. I am a firm believer in absolute truth, and I have no fear of it being overturned by falsehood. Falsehood will not stand the test in the final. Elijah even let the prophets of Baal do their thing. If God is in what you teach, then you should have no fear of what people say..........all the best.....

[CoreIssue]

I am sure i have said it before but it bears repeating. Everyones doctrine is sound doctrine in their own mind.
Yep. But the only sound doctrine that matters is the one from God.
I can not discern sound from unsound until I have considered all the angles and viewpoints.
Hmmm. There are not a lot of angles.

There is what the Bible says and then all the rest.
To dis-allow reasonable discourse of ideas, is it self "cult-like", and dangerous in my opinion.
Keyword is reasonable.

There MHz fails totally.

When asked for the source of his interpretive method, he simply says something basically along the lines of reading and letting the Holy Spirit fill in the details.

He rejects rules of grammar. He rejects proper word definitions. He rejects reading in passage context.

Meaning he rejects every norm of reading and understanding that have ever ruled languages.

So, there is no reasonable discourse with such.

You are a late comer to this. I have had discussions with MHz for more than 2 years running.

That is beyond the limits of being reasonable.
I am a firm believer in absolute truth, and I have no fear of it being overturned by falsehood.
None of us should.

But when one sets up criteria that defy all the norms of reading comprehension, they have placed themselves beyond being overturned.
Falsehood will not stand the test in the final.
Agree.
Elijah even let the prophets of Baal do their thing. If God is in what you teach, then you should have no fear of what people say..........all the best.....
I have no fear.

But the Bible says to know when the time has come to end the discussion. Shake the dust from your feet and move on. Treat those who will not listen as if pagans.

[kay-gee]

Wow that is pretty harsh................all the best..........

[kay-gee]

The problem lies not in what the bible says, but in what we think it says. Something crystal clear to you is not to me, and vise versa. Two things I try to remember are these. To take the whole counsel of God (psalms) and rightly divide the word (2Tim). Before I can really accept a doctrine I want to know every thing the bible has to say on the subject. All aspects should be brought to the table, even the ones that seem to not match. They must be brought into harmony, the way a guitar string is drawn into tune with the other strings by turning the key. Dividing the word to me, means understanding who is saying what, to whom, under what circumstances, disspensation etc...Also being mindful of the various literary instruments used in the bible...eg...Literal, figuarative, hyperbole, command, narrative..etc..Trying as hard as I can, I don't always get it right. I try not pre-concieve my doctrine going in. I don't feel that I gain anything by believing an untruth, no matter how personally comforting it may be.Anyways breakfast smells good Gotta go. Just some stuff to let you know where my heart is at on these matters....all the best...

[InTheWind]

Kay-Gee you have to take into account that CoreIssue has been studying the Bible and cult behavior for many years and is very good at discernment, in fact i believe it is a gift.
For instance i have seen many times where i have thought someone was really preaching up a good storm only too find out that it was way off base by Cores discernment and exposing the person.
Of course no one is 100 percent right about everything but Core and others here nail it pretty close most of the time.
Before you place judgment i would hope you give it time and see where the truth lies. :):

[MHz]

Before you place judgment i would hope you give it time and see where the truth lies. :):
Does this mean I should expand on who Christ is?
To put a restriction of no Scripture is , well, wrong. Why should I write pages and pages when a verse sums up many words I could use. Not words from other sources, words that are attributed as being spoken by God to us so we can understand. Nowhere does it say we need any other books to grasp His meaning and intent as to what will be.

God is capable of saying things that should be taken at face value, He can certainly send somebody (Jesus Christ)to 'rescue us' before we actually meet God.

Or does 'give it time' mean you present your views alone?

[CoreIssue]

It means you never arrive at a point. A stated conclusion.

I will tell you flat the verses say Christ is God incarnate in human flesh, when you actually take ALL the verses into consideration.

Now, what are your conclusions on what Christ is?

The only thing I know is you reject he is God incarnate. Appearance is that only the Father is God to you. Christ and the Holy Spirit are something else.

What IS Christ?

Don't just throw out the Son of God, because we define that meaning of that term very differently.

[MHz]

Sure I have, every post I have ever made to this site has some 'conclusion' based on the way some Scripture is written. You just don't like it because most, if not all, is in opposition to your current understanding. I don't say things that I have not spent some time researching, that I exclusively use the Bible to provide support to what I say and have you reject it indicates referencing Scripture is somehow foreign to what a believer in Christ should do.

You say you will tell me the verses, but you didn't. John the Baptist was a prophet sent by God, born 6 months before Christ. Who sent Stephen to the temple, Christ did. When reading any words in the later Books of the NT they all tell you right off the bat who they have been sent by

Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

That's right, there is one God, the creator of all and the father to us all. Had something not gone wrong in the Garden all Adam's sons would have been a perfect image of Adam, God has one Son, Jesus Christ, who has been perfect since before time. If you think He has been quiet all the time since before the birth of Jesus you haven't been paying attention to the OT prophets.

You place great emphasis on Jesus saying He was (I AM) when speaking of seeing Abraham.
What you won't consider is the (I AM) is different from (I am), were your thoughts valid on this one point every instance of (I am) should be a reference to God, it isn't, only the one time it appears as I AM is it a reference to God alone (singular since He is never alone because the Holy Spirit is always with Him. Christ has always been with Him but Christ did spend time on Earth, that was being apart from God).

This verse has those same two words in it but it is not a reference to God, it is a reference to the person speaking,
M't:9:28:
And when he was come into the house,
the blind men came to him:
and Jesus saith unto them,
Believe ye that I am able to do this?
They said unto him,
Yea,
Lord.

Christ is not a 'what' He is a 'who'.

There are two ways that is given, Son of God and son of God

Son of God has 8 verses, everyone pertains to Christ.

son of God has zero references
sons of God has has 5 references in the OT.

1Pe:1:3:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Us from mankind can be brought to God, after having been away, because of the original sin. Fallen angels can never be brought back.
Christ has been before God longer than the Heavens and He is still perfect before God, be thankful that that is who God sent to us, somebody who is perfect, that means what God has written about will be fulfilled.

God can call us a son when we have overcome all that is required, for the ones in the thousand years it is those who are alive for the thousand years, for 'the rest' it is when this verse is spoken to those standing before God himself,
Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.

[kay-gee]

I believe the passage Philippians 2, vs 6 thru 11 could shed much light on this issue! Jesus is in His very nature God! He considered His own divinity worth temporarily forsaking, to come in the likeness and nature of a human man, to carry out a mission. He took on the characteristics of humility, which is something outside of divinity (God has no need to be humble) He followed through completing His task, not only suffering death, but one of the worst and humiliating forms of execution devised by wicked men. Having so selflessly and voluntarily carried out this mission of redemption, God took Him back to the throne room of divinity from which He came, Giving to Him the governorship of all men. (above,on and below!) To name Christ, Glorifies God. There is no question that Christ always was, is, and ever shall be be. Why don't we all get together on this simple truth and stop arguing. Then we can move on to other matters that need attention!.......all the best....

[CTZonEdit]

Because Christ was not 'always was'.

He only was when He was incarnated. Until that point Christ did not exist. He only existed as a promise.

KG this is cultic tactic at its finest. You actually believe what MHz is saying, because you admittadly dont understand what he is saying and you are letting him slide. That is unacceptable.

He is speaking biblical jibberish only he understands. And somehow that makes sense to you? Very dangerous mindset you have there.

I'll say it again. If Christ existed with God before He took on flesh any sacrifice He made is worthless. It renders him inhuman and an inappropriate sacrifice for all humanity.

[CoreIssue]

KG, actually Christ, the human being, has not always existed. That is important because to say he did is to declare pre-incarnate flesh.

Do you believe that?

And MHz is not going to agree Christ is God incarnate. In his very nature both God and man.

Absolutely to speak of Christ is to speak of God. It is also to speak of a man.

Those realities are at the very core of our faith in Christ and the work he did.

Eternal God in a created man. Reality.

This is beyond small issues of difference. It goes to the very divine essence of God in Christ.

[CoreIssue]

MHz. Yes or no:
1. Is Christ God incarnate in the flesh? A whole personage of God indwelling the flesh of Jesus?
2. What was Jesus, in your view, in Heaven, before his coming? Was he human, God, angel or something else? What KIND of being was he?

Don't throw verses at me from which one is suppose to come to your conclusions about, which they don't.

Just give straight answers to the question for once.

This has to end. You cannot go on doing your dance step to avoid pointed answers.

[MHz]

MHz. Yes or no:
1. Is Christ God incarnate in the flesh? A whole personage of God indwelling the flesh of Jesus?
2. What was Jesus, in your view, in Heaven, before his coming? Was he human, God, angel or something else? What KIND of being was he?
Christ came to Earth on a mission from his Father, God.
Obviously not, if He was all three He would not have been baptized with the Holy Spirit just after His baptism by John, nor would the voice of God been heard, in several instances, proclaiming Jesus to be the beloved Son.

Proverbs 8 covers that, if that is shielded from you nothing I can say will remove that shielding.


Don't throw verses at me from which one is suppose to come to your conclusions about, which they don't.
I'm not quite sure why something like what is below is confusing to you?

1Co:8:5:
For though there be that are called gods,
whether in heaven or in earth,
(as there be gods many,
and lords many,)
1Co:8:6:
But to us there is but one God,
the Father,
of whom are all things,
and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things,
and we by him.

How much more straight forward can it get?


Just give straight answers to the question for once.
I have since the start.


This has to end. You cannot go on doing your dance step to avoid pointed answers.
If you can't understand the answers what am I supposed to do with you?

[kay-gee]

kay-gee here. All I did was recite Philippians 2:6-11, albeit, with my own paraphrase. The passage is crystal clear in what it says. Don't see how it could be taken any other way. There are a few outstanding puzzles to deal with here in conjunction. 3 come to mind.
1) Jesus said "before Abraham, I was"
2) This king of Salem, Melchizedek who mysteriously appears and disappears from the pages of scripture in Abraham's day before national Israel and priesthood. Who was that, if not preincarnate Christ? Hebrews refers to Jesus as priest in the order of Melchizedek (ch.7)
3) Gods own servant Daniel was joined in the fiery furnace by one "as the son of God" You people a lot of trust in the reliability of Daniel on prophetic things. Do you doubt that he would not recognize Christ when he saw him?..........all the best..........

[CTZonEdit]

Christ came to Earth on a mission from his Father, God.

Then your version of Christ is an inadequate and meaningless sacrifice for all of humanity.

Essentially what you have is an eternal 'alien' lifeform sacrificing itself for humanity, while claiming that he understands us and suffers for us. That would be a complete lie since this 'alien' is not human at all. He would have no idea what it was like to be a full human and suffer as a human regardless of where he claims to be from.

If he was not born of flesh he cannot be human. Period. Making any sacrifice meaningless.

[MHz]

Christ came to Earth on a mission from his Father, God.

Then your version of Christ is an inadequate and meaningless sacrifice for all of humanity.

Essentially what you have is an eternal 'alien' lifeform sacrificing itself for humanity, while claiming that he understands us and suffers for us. That would be a complete lie since this 'alien' is not human at all. He would have no idea what it was like to be a full human and suffer as a human regardless of where he claims to be from.

If he was not born of flesh he cannot be human. Period. Making any sacrifice meaningless.
I wouldn't consider leaving the side of your Father, God, to take on the form of man, through His mother, Mary (Miriam) as being either 'inadequate' or 'meaningless'.

Joh:3:12:
If I have told you earthly things,
and ye believe not,
how shall ye believe,
if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh:3:13:
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh:3:14:
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh:3:15:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have eternal life.
Joh:3:16:
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
Joh:3:17:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh:3:18:
He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Joh:6:32:
Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;
but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh:6:33:
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven,
and giveth life unto the world.
Joh:6:34:
Then said they unto him,
Lord,
evermore give us this bread.
Joh:6:35:
And Jesus said unto them,
I am the bread of life:
he that cometh to me shall never hunger;
and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh:6:36:
But I said unto you,
That ye also have seen me,
and believe not.
Joh:6:37:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh:6:38:
For I came down from heaven,
not to do mine own will,
but the will of him that sent me.
Joh:6:39:
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh:6:40:
And this is the will of him that sent me,
that every one which seeth the Son,
and believeth on him,
may have everlasting life:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh:6:41:
The Jews then murmured at him,
because he said,
I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh:6:42:
And they said,
Is not this Jesus,
the son of Joseph,
whose father and mother we know?
how is it then that he saith,
I came down from heaven?
Joh:6:43:
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them,
Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh:6:44:
No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh:6:45:
It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard,
and hath learned of the Father,
cometh unto me.
Joh:6:46:
Not that any man hath seen the Father,
save he which is of God,
he hath seen the Father.
Joh:6:47:
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh:6:48:
I am that bread of life.


Both of those passages say He was sent by his Father.

The book of Hebrews explains why He died,
Heb:9:22:
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb:9:23:
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these;
but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb:9:24:
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands,
which are the figures of the true;
but into heaven itself,
now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb:9:25:
Nor yet that he should offer himself often,
as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb:9:26:
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb:9:27:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:
Heb:9:28:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

[CTZonEdit]

God sent who? He = who?

If you say Christ in the flesh the sacrifice is meaningless. Christ did not leave the father in order to be born as Christ. Thats nonsense.

You need to answer what/who indewlt the flesh Mary conceived since Christ did not physically exist until the birth.

The answer is the Second Person of the Trinity. The Second Person is the eternal spirit that indwelt the flesh Mary gave birth to. Mirroring all humanity in that we have both a spirit from God and a flesh body to house it. This is the Christ. Not before at any point did Christ ever physically exist.

[CoreIssue]

kay-gee here. All I did was recite Philippians 2:6-11, albeit, with my own paraphrase. The passage is crystal clear in what it says. Don't see how it could be taken any other way. There are a few outstanding puzzles to deal with here in conjunction. 3 come to mind.
1) Jesus said "before Abraham, I was"
Incorrect. He said 'I Am,' which is what God called himself from the burning bush to Moses.

Now where in that do you see his flesh existing?

In the OT God was always God.

In prophesying Christ, God said you WILL be my son. Not you ARE my son.

His personage of God is eternal. His flesh and humanity is not.

Jesus Christ didn't exist until he incarnated.

2) This king of Salem, Melchizedek who mysteriously appears and disappears from the pages of scripture in Abraham's day before national Israel and priesthood. Who was that, if not preincarnate Christ? Hebrews refers to Jesus as priest in the order of Melchizedek (ch.7)

That is absurd.

He was the Priest King of Salem and remained such long after Abramham moved on to other places.

Christ is the of the lineage of Mechizedek, not MIchizedek himself.

Now you are declaring multiple incarnations. :eek:

What mystery? He is mentioned on time for one purpose and that is it.
3) Gods own servant Daniel was joined in the fiery furnace by one "as the son of God" You people a lot of trust in the reliability of Daniel on prophetic things. Do you doubt that he would not recognize Christ when he saw him?..........all the best..........
Try getting the quotes right.
25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."
You are quoting pagans who didn't even worship God.

Now, are you trying to say Jesus is a name of God? Or are you saying Jesus the man has always existed?

[MHz]

If you say Christ in the flesh the sacrifice is meaningless. Christ did not leave the father in order to be born as Christ. Thats nonsense.

You need to answer what/who indewlt the flesh Mary conceived since Christ did not physically exist until the birth.


John was 6 months older than Jesus, yet John says Christ was before him.

Joh:1:15:
John bare witness of him,
and cried,
saying,
This was he of whom I spake,
He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.

Before all things means even before Heaven was created,

Col:1:17:
And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.
Col:1:18:
And he is the head of the body,
the church:
who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Again this verse indicates how long Christ has been in existence,

Mic:5:2:
But thou,
Bethlehem Ephratah,
though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
whose goings forth have been from of old,
from everlasting.

If Christ didn't exist back then why mention Him by name to events about that time?

1Co:10:1:
Moreover,
brethren,
I would not that ye should be ignorant,
how that all our fathers were under the cloud,
and all passed through the sea;
1Co:10:2:
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co:10:3:
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co:10:4:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them:
and that Rock was Christ.

Christ had a 'glory with God' before the world was,

Joh:17:3:
And this is life eternal,
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent.
Joh:17:4:
I have glorified thee on the earth:
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh:17:5:
And now,
O Father,
glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh:17:6:
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
thine they were,
and thou gavest them me;
and they have kept thy word.
Joh:17:7:
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh:17:8:
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;
and they have received them,
and have known surely that I came out from thee,
and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Again the same thing is said again, a mention of God having a son,

Proverb:30:4:
Who hath ascended up into heaven,
or descended?
who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
who hath bound the waters in a garment?
who hath established all the ends of the earth?
what is his name,
and what is his son's name,
if thou canst tell?
Proverb:30:5:
Every word of God is pure:
he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Proverb:30:6:
Add thou not unto his words,
lest he reprove thee,
and thou be found a liar.

The above is only a sample of the things the Bible says about Christ's relationship with God. I'm not twisting anything, you have just read the same verses that helped me form an opinion of their relationship. Since Christ is ancient, He has seen all that has gone on, that certainly qualifies Him to be the judge of mankind.

[CTZonEdit]

Again, He = Who?

The Second Person. All references to Christ before his birth are speaking about the Second Person of the trinity not Christ.

You continue to allude to the idea that Christ was eternal. He was not. The promise of Christ was eternal as well as the spirit of Christ (the Second Person). But Christ himself did not physically exist until Mary gave birth to him.

[kay-gee]

Thanks MHz, for directing me to Proverbs 8. It is a giant step forward for me in understanding this issue!.........kay-gee............

[CoreIssue]

Thanks MHz, for directing me to Proverbs 8. It is a giant step forward for me in understanding this issue!.........kay-gee............
Proverbs 8 is about Wisdom and Understanding, not Christ.
1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
The Foolish and those who do not understand do not find God.

Some simple rules of grammar and semantics here go a long way to grasping what was said.

[kay-gee]

Agreed. and that time MHz nailed it. all the best......

[CoreIssue]

Agreed. and that time MHz nailed it. all the best......
Really? He said it was about Christ, not Wisdom and Understanding, being created.

It wasn't.

So, how about answering my questions to you?

I asked you if Jesus Christ was a name of God, Pre Incarnate, or did the human Jesus Christ exist Pre Incarnate?

[kay-gee]

The son is co-eternal. The person of Jesus Christ began at the nativity. That's as far as my understanding of it allows at this time.........all the best...

[CoreIssue]

The son is co-eternal. The person of Jesus Christ began at the nativity. That's as far as my understanding of it allows at this time.........all the best...
OK. Good start.

One change. The Son IS the Person of Jesus Christ.

There was neither Son nor Father until the incarnation. All three persons of the Godhead are TOTALLY equal, meaning none is Father or Son to another.

The flesh is the son. The Father is the Father of the flesh, not the spirit, of Christ.

No one totally understands Christ.

As with us, our flesh houses our spirits and our minds is where flesh and spirit meet.

So the flesh of Christ houses a personage of God and the two meet and combine in the mind.

[MHz]

Again, He = Who?

The Second Person. All references to Christ before his birth are speaking about the Second Person of the trinity not Christ.

You continue to allude to the idea that Christ was eternal. He was not. The promise of Christ was eternal as well as the spirit of Christ (the Second Person). But Christ himself did not physically exist until Mary gave birth to him.
We probably agree that the first and third are God and the Holy Spirit. What is the name of the second person?

Proverbs 30:4 was written in the OT. It asks for two names
" what is his name, and what is his son's name"

The son's name is Christ.

Who spoke this?
Isa:55:9:
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Core, Christ is the wisdom of God. The reason Christ has that wisdom is because He was there from before Heaven and Earth were created.
Is the third Heaven 'home' to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit?
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Would you seriously deny that this is Christ speaking?
Proverb:8:34:
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverb:8:35:
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
Proverb:8:36:
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.

Do Christians watch and wait for wisdom or for Christ?

[kay-gee]

I re-read Proverbs 8. It is about wisdom for sure, but now you brought up 35-36. That does sound a lot like Christ, who quoted something like that in NT (knocking, seeking,doors etc...) God help me! I'm beginning to feel like a ping-pong ball in all this!.....all the best....

[CoreIssue]

I re-read Proverbs 8. It is about wisdom for sure, but now you brought up 35-36. That does sound a lot like Christ, who quoted something like that in NT (knocking, seeking,doors etc...) God help me! I'm beginning to feel like a ping-pong ball in all this!.....all the best....
It is wisdom to find Christ.

The subject is wisdom and understanding for the whole chapter. It does not change.

MHz declaring Christ is the wisdom of God is nonsense. God possesses all wisdom. Making it separate in Christ is foolishness.

Or trying to say God's wisdom became Christ is foolishness.

Making an attribute of God manifest cannot be wedged to fit no matter how hard one tries.

But that is exactly what Modalists, of all shapes and sizes try to do, in different ways.

The Three Persons of the Godhead are all all wise. Neither needs the wisdom of the other given to them by another.

Wisdom and understanding are things we should seek. And God made them available to us.

That is why the Bible speaks of the wise and the foolish. One has or strives to find wisdom. The other disdains it.

[MHz]

I re-read Proverbs 8. It is about wisdom for sure, but now you brought up 35-36. That does sound a lot like Christ, who quoted something like that in NT (knocking, seeking,doors etc...) God help me! I'm beginning to feel like a ping-pong ball in all this!.....all the best....
As with any doctrine many people have much to say. A search on google with something like 'is the trinity true or false' will get you articles that cover both side, read several and that should help you decide.

[CoreIssue]

Just read it literally, KG.

You will note those who read it as Christ spin it away from literal.

Saying Wisdom was created from eternity, alone, tells you it isn't Christ.

Christ didn't exsit before the incarnation, unless you are embracing reincarnation. And the Second Person of the Trinity was not created.

[MHz]

Wisdom is something spiritual, wisdom cannot talk for itself, nor can it refer to itself as "I", or are you now introducing a 4th person, Wisdom.

[CoreIssue]

Wisdom is something spiritual, wisdom cannot talk for itself, nor can it refer to itself as "I", or are you now introducing a 4th person, Wisdom.
You are making no sense.

YOU introduced the verse as being Christ, not me.

What is the topic, MHz?

What is Christ.

And you will not answer it directly.

YOU pointed to this chapter as saying it was Christ, not me.

So, what now? Christ was not even a person in Eternity? He was a thing?

[MHz]

You are the one saying this is 'wisdom' talking
Proverb:8:22:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
Proverb:8:23:
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.

Yes that chapter was one of my references, so was this verse,

Joh:1:15:
John bare witness of him,
and cried,
saying,
This was he of whom I spake,
He that cometh after me is preferred before me:
for he was before me.

That makes Christ older than John even though John was born 6 months before Jesus.

Who Christ is was written in many verses,

Joh:17:3:
And this is life eternal,
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent.
Joh:17:4:
I have glorified thee on the earth:
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh:17:5:
And now,
O Father,
glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The last 9 words of the above tell us how long He has been with God.

Not my problem if you reject what Scripture clearly spells out.

That's right I did because it is about Christ.

Referencing Christ as a 'what' is something you do, I have always referred to Him as a 'who'.

[CoreIssue]

OK. This ends.

Either tell me what Christ is, not verses you declare are about him, or I am locking this thread.

The question possed to you was what is Christ? Is he God incarnate, a created being, an eternal being of some other nature than God or an angel, an angel or what.

I don't want verses you say are about him. I want a simple, straight forward statement of what he IS?

WHAT IS HE, as in type of being?

I didn't ask you about anything else but that one, straight forward question.

This is not a platform to preach. Just answer the question.

[MHz]

I have answered it several times.
Go ahead lock it.

[CoreIssue]

I have answered it several times.
Go ahead lock it.
You never aswered, as also told you buy CTZ.

I still don't have a clue what kind of being Christ is in your eyes.

Locked.