View Full Version : Saul's conversion
From another thread,
MHz
Jesus didn't have much trouble gathering Saul and He was very opposed to Christians. Why would Christ have rebellion in the MK when it only has believers when it starts?
Reply by Core Issue
First, Paul didn't covert easily. It took a huge demonstration by him of power.
Second, you are wrong only believers enter the MK. But not discussing that here since it is not thread topic.[/QUOTE]
Do you want a thread started for every topic that might covered by just a very few posts? This is an introduction to an issue that is going to come up in the MK thread, but that thread hasn't gotten to the point that this one issue has even started to be talked about.
My whole point would be made by this statement, how long from when Saul was struck blind until he was out preaching the Gospel of Christ, a fairly short time.
Christ has at least this much power over people that oppose Him. He is said to rule with an iron rod, so where do the sinners that number as the 'sands of the sea' come from?
CoreIssue
05-27-2007, 11:17 AM
When the subject is not the thread topic and needs its own discussion, yes.
If a quick point and then move on, no.
This is not a quick point because you are trying to bring up your full doctrinal position, here, that has been discussed many times.
As in resurrected people living in the MK.
That would wreck that thread.
You want to introduce it there? Just post ONE post with a link pointing the threads where we discussed it.
Then KG and others can choose to respond to the other thread or not.
Threads cannot encompass tons of specific subjects. They get derailed.
Really, MHz, you do not seem to realize you keep presenting really way out positions that do not fit with what people are looking for in their questions.
So, when you have such, they need to be within your Forum and allowing others to choose to take part, or not.
You really say a lot of things not considered Christian by the big majority.
Does not mean you cannot present. But it does mean it hijacks the thread away from the intended purposes.
Anyway, gathering Paul doesn't seem like it was 'difficult',
Ac:9:3:
And as he journeyed,
he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Ac:9:4:
And he fell to the earth,
and heard a voice saying unto him,
Saul,
Saul,
why persecutest thou me?
Ac:9:5:
And he said,
Who art thou,
Lord?
And the Lord said,
I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Ac:9:6:
And he trembling and astonished said,
Lord,
what wilt thou have me to do?
And the Lord said unto him,
Arise,
and go into the city,
and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Ac:9:7:
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,
hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Ac:9:8:
And Saul arose from the earth;
and when his eyes were opened,
he saw no man:
but they led him by the hand,
and brought him into Damascus.
Ac:9:9:
And he was three days without sight,
and neither did eat nor drink.
When you apply that ability to Jesus during the thousand years having one single sinner would seem to be not very likely, let alone having a huge number at the end of that period of time.
CoreIssue
05-28-2007, 12:32 AM
First of all, compared to what it takes to get most to turn to Christ, Saul's conversion was extremely dramatic and rare in effort.
When you apply that ability to Jesus during the thousand years having one single sinner would seem to be not very likely, let alone having a huge number at the end of that period of time.
You don't seem to pay attention and think things through.
Satan and the Fallen Angels rebelled in spite of living in God's very presence.
Equating Saul to the MK issues is totally unrelated. Different people will come to different results. Really, the Short Time is after the MK and after 1,000 years of Christ being there there are those who never accepted Christ as Savior and they attack Jerusalem again.
As there the unsaved entering the MK there will be unsaved exiting the MK. Plain simple reality or there would be no Short Time attack.
You are trying to defend your doctrine when it is based on the completely flawed notion people will not have sin natures in the MK and needing salvation.
They still have freewill and facts I gave demand not all are saved.
If a beings like the angels rebell in the presence of God, those with sin natures are not going to 100% repent just because Christ is physically present.
Seems your whole purpose for this thread was to again try to present a sinless MK.
That being the case, all that needs to be said has been said. This is an ETC. thread to many things said way too often already.
First of all, compared to what it takes to get most to turn to Christ, Saul's conversion was extremely dramatic and rare in effort.
Jesus himself gathered Saul that is why it was easy, He didn't struggle to keep the Apostles once He had gathered them either.
Whose effort, ours or His? If we have to struggle to just get one we are quite puny if God gathers Nations with 'minimal effort'.
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
kay-gee
05-28-2007, 09:19 AM
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
CoreIssue
05-28-2007, 10:47 AM
First of all, compared to what it takes to get most to turn to Christ, Saul's conversion was extremely dramatic and rare in effort.
Jesus himself gathered Saul that is why it was easy, He didn't struggle to keep the Apostles once He had gathered them either.
Whose effort, ours or His? If we have to struggle to just get one we are quite puny if God gathers Nations with 'minimal effort'.
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Why do you keep equating the realities of the repentent to those who reject Christ? Apples and oranges.
CoreIssue
05-28-2007, 10:49 AM
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
Most excellent example!
God knows who will love him. And he ensures they find him. Else Romans 8 is a lie.
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
How did you apply being a rich young ruler to the man? Scripture only specifies that he had "great possessions".
I would admit, even today, you would find many who have a love for money more than they have a love for Christ. You will probably even find some who think money will help them get through the tribulation until Christ arrives. The type who thinks they can 'stock-up' and 'hide away' somewhere remote. That would seem to give the rich an advantage over the poor.
Is having money, or having a lack of money, even going to be an issue for the thousand years? Not.
It would seem that when Babylon is destroyed that also includes anything to do with money, it is the merchants who are crying over Babylon.
How is the man who refused to give up his wealth (to help the poor for a bit) any different from the rich man who just passed by Lazarus and did nothing? We know where that rich man ended up, in hell.
Just before the thousand years there is a 'sorting', the elect from all others. It is only the elect who survive the wrath of God (specific to just the 7 vials). Anybody who hasn't accepted Christ is in another place for the thousand years, that would include the rich man you referenced.
Core said that sinners will enter the thousand years, the actual verses that say that are what? Please don't use the 'new earth ' ones. Just what sinners does the sword 'miss'?
CoreIssue
05-28-2007, 10:30 PM
[quote=kay-gee;21454]What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
How did you apply being a rich young ruler to the man? Scripture only specifies that he had "great possessions".
That is what rich means.
I would admit, even today, you would find many who have a love for money more than they have a love for Christ. You will probably even find some who think money will help them get through the tribulation until Christ arrives. The type who thinks they can 'stock-up' and 'hide away' somewhere remote. That would seem to give the rich an advantage over the poor.
Is having money, or having a lack of money, even going to be an issue for the thousand years? Not.
And where is that said?
It would seem that when Babylon is destroyed that also includes anything to do with money, it is the merchants who are crying over Babylon.
Does not say that.
How is the man who refused to give up his wealth (to help the poor for a bit) any different from the rich man who just passed by Lazarus and did nothing? We know where that rich man ended up, in hell.
Hello. You are dodging the point.
You said Christ's direct effort, as shown with Saul, would change one.
KG gave you and example where it did not. One of a number of examples that could be listed.
Just before the thousand years there is a 'sorting', the elect from all others. It is only the elect who survive the wrath of God (specific to just the 7 vials). Anybody who hasn't accepted Christ is in another place for the thousand years, that would include the rich man you referenced.
Never said. it never says only the elect survive. It says those with the Mark die.
Not a single mention of those who are not elect but not taking the Mark at the Second Coming.
Core said that sinners will enter the thousand years, the actual verses that say that are what? Please don't use the 'new earth ' ones. Just what sinners does the sword 'miss'?
Hold on there with the negative proof demands!
You show me the verse that says they do not.
Doesn't exist.
You are adding to what is said. It says those who take the Mark die. It shows there is sin in the MK in Isaiah, in example.
Enough has been said in many threads that KG can find all these argument himself.
Let KG determine if enough has been said here and ask what he wants to ask. Don't hijack the thread.
CoreIssue
05-28-2007, 10:32 PM
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
How did you apply being a rich young ruler to the man? Scripture only specifies that he had "great possessions".
That is what rich means.
I would admit, even today, you would find many who have a love for money more than they have a love for Christ. You will probably even find some who think money will help them get through the tribulation until Christ arrives. The type who thinks they can 'stock-up' and 'hide away' somewhere remote. That would seem to give the rich an advantage over the poor.
Is having money, or having a lack of money, even going to be an issue for the thousand years? Not.
And where is that said?
It would seem that when Babylon is destroyed that also includes anything to do with money, it is the merchants who are crying over Babylon.
Does not say that.
How is the man who refused to give up his wealth (to help the poor for a bit) any different from the rich man who just passed by Lazarus and did nothing? We know where that rich man ended up, in hell.
Hello. You are dodging the point.
You said Christ's direct effort, as shown with Saul, would change one.
KG gave you and example where it did not. One of a number of examples that could be listed.
Just before the thousand years there is a 'sorting', the elect from all others. It is only the elect who survive the wrath of God (specific to just the 7 vials). Anybody who hasn't accepted Christ is in another place for the thousand years, that would include the rich man you referenced.
Never said. it never says only the elect survive. It says those with the Mark die.
Not a single mention of those who are not elect but not taking the Mark at the Second Coming.
Core said that sinners will enter the thousand years, the actual verses that say that are what? Please don't use the 'new earth ' ones. Just what sinners does the sword 'miss'?
Hold on there with the negative proof demands!
You show me the verse that says they do not.
Doesn't exist.
You are adding to what is said. It says those who take the Mark die. It shows there is sin in the MK in Isaiah, in example.
Enough has been said in many threads that KG can find all these argument himself.
I am not bogging down in a line of discussion that has been repeated more than enough already.
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
How did you apply being a rich young ruler to the man? Scripture only specifies that he had "great possessions".
That is what rich means.
People can have great possessions without being young or being a ruler
I would admit, even today, you would find many who have a love for money more than they have a love for Christ. You will probably even find some who think money will help them get through the tribulation until Christ arrives. The type who thinks they can 'stock-up' and 'hide away' somewhere remote. That would seem to give the rich an advantage over the poor.
Is having money, or having a lack of money, even going to be an issue for the thousand years? Not.
And where is that said?
Money is never mentioned.
It would seem that when Babylon is destroyed that also includes anything to do with money, it is the merchants who are crying over Babylon.
Does not say that.
Re:18:3:
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication,
and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her,
and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Re:18:10:
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
saying,
Alas,
alas,
that great city Babylon,
that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Re:18:11:
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Re:18:15:
The merchants of these things,
which were made rich by her,
shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment,
weeping and wailing,
Re:18:23:
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee;
and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
How is the man who refused to give up his wealth (to help the poor for a bit) any different from the rich man who just passed by Lazarus and did nothing? We know where that rich man ended up, in hell.
Hello. You are dodging the point.
You said Christ's direct effort, as shown with Saul, would change one.
KG gave you and example where it did not. One of a number of examples that could be listed.
Just before the thousand years there is a 'sorting', the elect from all others. It is only the elect who survive the wrath of God (specific to just the 7 vials). Anybody who hasn't accepted Christ is in another place for the thousand years, that would include the rich man you referenced.
Never said. it never says only the elect survive. It says those with the Mark die.
Not a single mention of those who are not elect but not taking the Mark at the Second Coming.
M't:13:39:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
M't:13:48:
Which,
when it was full,
they drew to shore,
and sat down,
and gathered the good into vessels,
but cast the bad away.
M't:13:49:
So shall it be at the end of the world:
the angels shall come forth,
and sever the wicked from among the just,
M't:13:50:
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
M't:13:51:
Jesus saith unto them,
Have ye understood all these things?
They say unto him,
Yea,
Lord.
Core said that sinners will enter the thousand years, the actual verses that say that are what? Please don't use the 'new earth ' ones. Just what sinners does the sword 'miss'?
Hold on there with the negative proof demands!
You show me the verse that says they do not.
Doesn't exist.
You are adding to what is said. It says those who take the Mark die. It shows there is sin in the MK in Isaiah, in example.
Who dies in Isaiah 65:1-15, all those who would not accept Christ, this is during the 7 vials that are poured out in one day,
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Zep:1:2:
I will utterly consume all things from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:3:
I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the fowls of the heaven,
and the fishes of the sea,
and the stumblingblocks with the wicked;
and I will cut off man from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:4:
I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah,
and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place,
and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep:1:5:
And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops;
and them that worship and that swear by the LORD,
and that swear by Malcham;
Zep:1:6:
And them that are turned back from the LORD;
and those that have not sought the LORD,
nor enquired for him.
Zep:1:7:
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD:
for the day of the LORD is at hand:
for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice,
he hath bid his guests.
Zep:1:8:
And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice,
that I will punish the princes,
and the king's children,
and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep:1:9:
In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold,
which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep:1:10:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
saith the LORD,
that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate,
and an howling from the second,
and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep:1:11:
Howl,
ye inhabitants of Maktesh,
for all the merchant people are cut down;
all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep:1:12:
And it shall come to pass at that time,
that I will search Jerusalem with candles,
and punish the men that are settled on their lees:
that say in their heart,
The LORD will not do good,
neither will he do evil.
Zep:1:13:
Therefore their goods shall become a booty,
and their houses a desolation:
they shall also build houses,
but not inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep:1:14:
The great day of the LORD is near,
it is near,
and hasteth greatly,
even the voice of the day of the LORD:
the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep:1:15:
That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of wasteness and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep:1:16:
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities,
and against the high towers.
Zep:1:17:
And I will bring distress upon men,
that they shall walk like blind men,
because they have sinned against the LORD:
and their blood shall be poured out as dust,
and their flesh as the dung.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
The next two chapters continue with this theme. The verses below describe the area of the earth that Christ will claim as His, if it is His it will also be cleansed of anybody considered as being 'wicked'.
Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec:14:8:
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec:14:9:
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be one LORD,
and his name one.
kay-gee
05-29-2007, 02:09 PM
The account in Matthew 19 also refers to him as being a young man. How he came to be known as a ruler I'm not sure. Probably was a son of a an aristocratic family. Most bibles refer to the story as "the rich young ruler" or "rich young man". Same as "Prodigal Son" ,the exact words are not in the account. The meaning and importance of the story are not compromised............all the best.........
CoreIssue
05-29-2007, 02:52 PM
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
How did you apply being a rich young ruler to the man? Scripture only specifies that he had "great possessions".
That is what rich means.
People can have great possessions without being young or being a ruler
KG answered.
I would admit, even today, you would find many who have a love for money more than they have a love for Christ. You will probably even find some who think money will help them get through the tribulation until Christ arrives. The type who thinks they can 'stock-up' and 'hide away' somewhere remote. That would seem to give the rich an advantage over the poor.
Is having money, or having a lack of money, even going to be an issue for the thousand years? Not.
And where is that said?
Money is never mentioned.
You said it, so I was asking you to back that statement.
It would seem that when Babylon is destroyed that also includes anything to do with money, it is the merchants who are crying over Babylon.
Does not say that.
Re:18......
I repeat. It does not say what you claim here. It does not say anything to do with money ceases in the MK.
There will still be trade. Trade demands a medium of exchange.
How is the man who refused to give up his wealth (to help the poor for a bit) any different from the rich man who just passed by Lazarus and did nothing? We know where that rich man ended up, in hell.
Hello. You are dodging the point.
You said Christ's direct effort, as shown with Saul, would change one.
KG gave you and example where it did not. One of a number of examples that could be listed.
Just before the thousand years there is a 'sorting', the elect from all others. It is only the elect who survive the wrath of God (specific to just the 7 vials). Anybody who hasn't accepted Christ is in another place for the thousand years, that would include the rich man you referenced.
Never said. it never says only the elect survive. It says those with the Mark die.
Not a single mention of those who are not elect but not taking the Mark at the Second Coming.
M't:13:39:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
M't:13:48:
Which,
when it was full,
they drew to shore,
and sat down,
and gathered the good into vessels,
but cast the bad away.
M't:13:49:
So shall it be at the end of the world:
the angels shall come forth,
and sever the wicked from among the just,
M't:13:50:
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
M't:13:51:
Jesus saith unto them,
Have ye understood all these things?
They say unto him,
Yea,
Lord.
Says End of the World. NOT the MK.
Core said that sinners will enter the thousand years, the actual verses that say that are what? Please don't use the 'new earth ' ones. Just what sinners does the sword 'miss'?
Hold on there with the negative proof demands!
You show me the verse that says they do not.
Doesn't exist.
You are adding to what is said. It says those who take the Mark die. It shows there is sin in the MK in Isaiah, in example.
Who dies in Isaiah 65:1-15, all those who would not accept Christ, this is during the 7 vials that are poured out in one day,
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Doesn't say that. Again you claim what is not said.
Zep:1:2:
I will utterly consume all things from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:3:
I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the fowls of the heaven,
and the fishes of the sea,
and the stumblingblocks with the wicked;
and I will cut off man from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:4:
I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah,
and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place,
and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep:1:5:
And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops;
and them that worship and that swear by the LORD,
and that swear by Malcham;
Zep:1:6:
And them that are turned back from the LORD;
and those that have not sought the LORD,
nor enquired for him.
Zep:1:7:
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD:
for the day of the LORD is at hand:
for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice,
he hath bid his guests.
Zep:1:8:
And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice,
that I will punish the princes,
and the king's children,
and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep:1:9:
In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold,
which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep:1:10:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
saith the LORD,
that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate,
and an howling from the second,
and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep:1:11:
Howl,
ye inhabitants of Maktesh,
for all the merchant people are cut down;
all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep:1:12:
And it shall come to pass at that time,
that I will search Jerusalem with candles,
and punish the men that are settled on their lees:
that say in their heart,
The LORD will not do good,
neither will he do evil.
Zep:1:13:
Therefore their goods shall become a booty,
and their houses a desolation:
they shall also build houses,
but not inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep:1:14:
The great day of the LORD is near,
it is near,
and hasteth greatly,
even the voice of the day of the LORD:
the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep:1:15:
That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of wasteness and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep:1:16:
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities,
and against the high towers.
Zep:1:17:
And I will bring distress upon men,
that they shall walk like blind men,
because they have sinned against the LORD:
and their blood shall be poured out as dust,
and their flesh as the dung.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
It does not say all will die.
If you read it that way even the good die as well.
The Hebrew concept of a part of the whole being referred to as the whole applies here.
Your reading has the earth totally barren of all life.
Reading on you see references to survivors from all nations. And not just saints.
Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec:14:8:
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec:14:9:
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be one LORD,
and his name one.
King of what? A dead planet, by your thinking?
The account in Matthew 19 also refers to him as being a young man. How he came to be known as a ruler I'm not sure. Probably was a son of a an aristocratic family. Most bibles refer to the story as "the rich young ruler" or "rich young man". Same as "Prodigal Son" ,the exact words are not in the account. The meaning and importance of the story are not compromised............all the best.........
The story is the same. Do you want to examine this any further? Does the reluctance of being rich and wanting to hold onto those riches apply to just that time or does that also apply to what a person loves, or is willing to part with, just moments before Christ arrives?
Does this story have just one part or two parts? Jesus corrected this man on who the 'good master' is, God.
CoreIssue
05-29-2007, 09:40 PM
The account in Matthew 19 also refers to him as being a young man. How he came to be known as a ruler I'm not sure. Probably was a son of a an aristocratic family. Most bibles refer to the story as "the rich young ruler" or "rich young man". Same as "Prodigal Son" ,the exact words are not in the account. The meaning and importance of the story are not compromised............all the best.........
The story is the same. Do you want to examine this any further? Does the reluctance of being rich and wanting to hold onto those riches apply to just that time or does that also apply to what a person loves, or is willing to part with, just moments before Christ arrives?
Does this story have just one part or two parts? Jesus corrected this man on who the 'good master' is, God.
Actually, he didn't correct him.
He said there is only One who is good. That is not a denial of being part of the Godhead. But it is an acknowledment that he was there a man, not God.
Don't put more meaning into it than is stated.
Philipians 2 and John 1 both tell you Christ is God incarnate.
What about the rich young ruler? He talked to Jesus face to face, desperately wanting salvation, but couldn't follow through, when he deemed the price too high. Was this fellow given any more or less of a crack at it than was Saul? all the best.........
How did you apply being a rich young ruler to the man? Scripture only specifies that he had "great possessions".
That is what rich means.
People can have great possessions without being young or being a ruler
KG answered.
And I answered him.
I would admit, even today, you would find many who have a love for money more than they have a love for Christ. You will probably even find some who think money will help them get through the tribulation until Christ arrives. The type who thinks they can 'stock-up' and 'hide away' somewhere remote. That would seem to give the rich an advantage over the poor.
Is having money, or having a lack of money, even going to be an issue for the thousand years? Not.
And where is that said?
Money is never mentioned.
You said it, so I was asking you to back that statement.
The statement is backed by the total absence of verses that say anything about money
It would seem that when Babylon is destroyed that also includes anything to do with money, it is the merchants who are crying over Babylon.
Does not say that.
Re:18......
I repeat. It does not say what you claim here. It does not say anything to do with money ceases in the MK.
There will still be trade. Trade demands a medium of exchange.
Bringing things to the House of Prayer is not trade.
How is the man who refused to give up his wealth (to help the poor for a bit) any different from the rich man who just passed by Lazarus and did nothing? We know where that rich man ended up, in hell.
Hello. You are dodging the point.
You said Christ's direct effort, as shown with Saul, would change one.
KG gave you and example where it did not. One of a number of examples that could be listed.
Just before the thousand years there is a 'sorting', the elect from all others. It is only the elect who survive the wrath of God (specific to just the 7 vials). Anybody who hasn't accepted Christ is in another place for the thousand years, that would include the rich man you referenced.
Never said. it never says only the elect survive. It says those with the Mark die.
Not a single mention of those who are not elect but not taking the Mark at the Second Coming.
M't:13:39:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.
M't:13:41:
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
M't:13:48:
Which,
when it was full,
they drew to shore,
and sat down,
and gathered the good into vessels,
but cast the bad away.
M't:13:49:
So shall it be at the end of the world:
the angels shall come forth,
and sever the wicked from among the just,
M't:13:50:
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
M't:13:51:
Jesus saith unto them,
Have ye understood all these things?
They say unto him,
Yea,
Lord.
Says End of the World. NOT the MK.
Core said that sinners will enter the thousand years, the actual verses that say that are what? Please don't use the 'new earth ' ones. Just what sinners does the sword 'miss'?
Hold on there with the negative proof demands!
You show me the verse that says they do not.
Doesn't exist.
You are adding to what is said. It says those who take the Mark die. It shows there is sin in the MK in Isaiah, in example.
Who dies in Isaiah 65:1-15, all those who would not accept Christ, this is during the 7 vials that are poured out in one day,
Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Doesn't say that. Again you claim what is not said.
Zep:1:2:
I will utterly consume all things from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:3:
I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the fowls of the heaven,
and the fishes of the sea,
and the stumblingblocks with the wicked;
and I will cut off man from off the land,
saith the LORD.
Zep:1:4:
I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah,
and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place,
and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep:1:5:
And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops;
and them that worship and that swear by the LORD,
and that swear by Malcham;
Zep:1:6:
And them that are turned back from the LORD;
and those that have not sought the LORD,
nor enquired for him.
Zep:1:7:
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD:
for the day of the LORD is at hand:
for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice,
he hath bid his guests.
Zep:1:8:
And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD's sacrifice,
that I will punish the princes,
and the king's children,
and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep:1:9:
In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold,
which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep:1:10:
And it shall come to pass in that day,
saith the LORD,
that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate,
and an howling from the second,
and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep:1:11:
Howl,
ye inhabitants of Maktesh,
for all the merchant people are cut down;
all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep:1:12:
And it shall come to pass at that time,
that I will search Jerusalem with candles,
and punish the men that are settled on their lees:
that say in their heart,
The LORD will not do good,
neither will he do evil.
Zep:1:13:
Therefore their goods shall become a booty,
and their houses a desolation:
they shall also build houses,
but not inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep:1:14:
The great day of the LORD is near,
it is near,
and hasteth greatly,
even the voice of the day of the LORD:
the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep:1:15:
That day is a day of wrath,
a day of trouble and distress,
a day of wasteness and desolation,
a day of darkness and gloominess,
a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep:1:16:
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities,
and against the high towers.
Zep:1:17:
And I will bring distress upon men,
that they shall walk like blind men,
because they have sinned against the LORD:
and their blood shall be poured out as dust,
and their flesh as the dung.
Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
It does not say all will die.
If you read it that way even the good die as well.
The Hebrew concept of a part of the whole being referred to as the whole applies here.
Your reading has the earth totally barren of all life.
Reading on you see references to survivors from all nations. And not just saints.
Not barren, only barren of the wicked.
Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
Zec:14:8:
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec:14:9:
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth:
in that day shall there be one LORD,
and his name one.
King of what? A dead planet, by your thinking?
No Core, nobody who has sought Christ dies. From the Nations it is a remnant that survive, a righteous remnant that gladly come once a year to a feast. That doesn't mean there will be no body from the Nations in Jerusalem besides that time. It would seem that Gentiles are the ones to 'decorate' the House of Prayer.
Zec:6:15:
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD,
and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
And this shall come to pass,
if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
CoreIssue
05-29-2007, 10:03 PM
The statement is backed by the total absence of verses that say anything about money
That is claiming a negative proof, meaning since your claim is not proven wrong it must be right.
It is an illogical claims since it also does not say money is not used anymore.
There is statement that the medium, money, used in commerce will cease. No claims commerce will cease.
Thus nothing to base you claim upon as valid.
Negative proof claims and demands are meaningless.
Bringing things to the House of Prayer is not trade.
That is an irrelavent thing to bring up. There is life in the MK beyond the Temple.
Not barren, only barren of the wicked.
It is talking about Israel, not the whole world, as well.
No Core, nobody who has sought Christ dies. From the Nations it is a remnant that survive, a righteous remnant that gladly come once a year to a feast. That doesn't mean there will be no body from the Nations in Jerusalem besides that time. It would seem that Gentiles are the ones to 'decorate' the House of Prayer.
It says there are nations that DO NOT come up and they are punished with drought.
So much for your claims here.
You are big time practioneer of Shopping Cart Theology and spiritualizations.
kay-gee
05-29-2007, 10:21 PM
Better to seek truth than preconcieving your own truth, and then trying to support it with scriptures. That's why the Christian world is full of denominations....all the best.........
CoreIssue
05-29-2007, 10:25 PM
Better to seek truth than preconcieving your own truth, and then trying to support it with scriptures. That's why the Christian world is full of denominations....all the best.........
I could not agree more.
If one cannot hand ALL the verses on issues, harmonized, then one should see they are not seeking what the Bible says, but what they want find.
The statement is backed by the total absence of verses that say anything about money
That is claiming a negative proof, meaning since your claim is not proven wrong it must be right.
It is an illogical claims since it also does not say money is not used anymore.
There is statement that the medium, money, used in commerce will cease. No claims commerce will cease.
Thus nothing to base you claim upon as valid.
Negative proof claims and demands are meaningless.
Then post the verses that deal with money in the thousand years.
Bringing things to the House of Prayer is not trade.
That is an irrelavent thing to bring up. There is life in the MK beyond the Temple.
Not barren, only barren of the wicked.
It is talking about Israel, not the whole world, as well.
Are you going to be making plow-shears to sell?
So Christ is King only to a small portion of the world?
Re:16:19:
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Mic:4:13:
Arise and thresh,
O daughter of Zion:
for I will make thine horn iron,
and I will make thy hoofs brass:
and thou shalt beat in pieces many people:
and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD,
and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
Isa:28:22:
Now therefore be ye not mockers,
lest your bands be made strong:
for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption,
even determined upon the whole earth.
Isa:6:3:
And one cried unto another,
and said,
Holy,
holy,
holy,
is the LORD of hosts:
the whole earth is full of his glory.
Psalms:97:5:
The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD,
at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Psalms:72:19:
And blessed be his glorious name for ever:
and let the whole earth be filled with his glory;
Amen,
and Amen.
Are you beginning to get the whole picture yet? The whole house of Israel will see those days, deal with it.
No Core, nobody who has sought Christ dies. From the Nations it is a remnant that survive, a righteous remnant that gladly come once a year to a feast. That doesn't mean there will be no body from the Nations in Jerusalem besides that time. It would seem that Gentiles are the ones to 'decorate' the House of Prayer.
It says there are nations that DO NOT come up and they are punished with drought.
It says 'if they do not come',
Zec:14:18:
And if the family of Egypt go not up,
and come not,
that have no rain;
there shall be the plague,
wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
You are big time practioneer of Shopping Cart Theology and spiritualizations.
So since you have such a distaste for using one verse to support another I would assume you will be dropping pre-adam type theories and will also be dropping a 7 year trib being as that comes from Daniel and not Revelation.
I doubt you even believe the words 'that day' in any book after Daniel refers to one single day of destruction of everything and everyone ungodly in the whole world. Maybe it is better you can't.
Core, I at least take Ezekiel 37 as being a literal resurrection of a lot of individuals, just as it is written, you are the one who can only see it as a national event of the still living. Sometimes you really make me laugh, you probably have topped that at some time but I can't be bothered to spend any more time bringing up old issues of that particular kind.
CoreIssue
05-30-2007, 12:43 PM
Are you beginning to get the whole picture yet? The whole house of Israel will see those days, deal with it.
I am.
You have no interest in finding truth. You are using these threads to preach, seeking to find others who agree with you.
That is not their purposes.
Their purposes is study and compare, together, and find the Truth.
You dodge the verses that do not agree with you, refuse to respond directly, just try to switch issues.
This is fruitless for either of us.
Your doctrines bear no resemblance to the Bible or Christian beliefs. You add works to salvation, deny the Trinity, deny Christ is divine, refuse to state what kind of being Christ is, do not use proper word meanings, do not use rules of grammar and have no interest in doing anything but looking for converts to your beliefs.
That is fruitless. This thread is fruitless, since no matter what the topic begins with you look it back to the same old tired declarations.
I will start another thread, on a topic from a different angle.
No diversions, jumping, skipping or redirects. Just answer in plain language.
But this thread is done. There is nothing new here.
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.