MHz - NEW DETAILS OF AHMADINEJAD'S APOCALYPTIC BELIEFS

[MHz]

SPLIT FROM HERE (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3304) SINCE IT WENT OFF TOPIC.

Tell me again, how Islam has nothing to do with end time events!.........all the best.....
Okay, Islam has nothing to do with the end times.

Tell me again, how Islam has nothing to do with end time events!.........all the best.....
Whoever said they didn't?

Who do you think the nations mentioned, who fight against the AC, Israel and such are?
Islam fighting against the AC, and that is bad in what sense?

You actually think the world has nothing to fear from wayward Christians and wayward Jews, I'm shocked, really, totally shocked. The spread of Christianity embellished all those who were first to hear about Christ, whoops, I forgot, most if not all of those civilizations were disseminated.

The ploy that Iran hasn't started any wars since, well a couple of hundred years must be just a 'trap', yes, that's it, it's a trap. Imagine if the rest of the world being so cagey.

As for Israel during those days, apparently Jer:25 has so far escaped your reading about it.
Test question, the punishment for not drinking is what?


Another test question, Christ say what about how to treat your enemies, assuming you could actually prove that an atomic Islam country would be a threat to anybody, maybe they just want to light a few more ski-hills as a way of drawing tourism, the family type of tourists no 'college kids gone wild'.

For Christians you guys are terribly paranoid, truly, probably past the point of no return.

Still haven't gotten over what happened when your Shaw got kicked out, nor Cuba kicking out the 'high rolling partiers', you guys are simply amazing.

[CoreIssue]

You actually think the world has nothing to fear from wayward Christians and wayward Jews, I'm shocked, really, totally shocked. The spread of Christianity embellished all those who were first to hear about Christ, whoops, I forgot, most if not all of those civilizations were disseminated.
Well, MHz, let me be truthful here.

With your anti-Trinitarian and other non Biblical doctrines, I don't see where you have room to talk about wayward Christians.

But, with that said, such as the RCC saying its doctrine is Christian just doesn't make it so.
Another test question, Christ say what about how to treat your enemies, assuming you could actually prove that an atomic Islam country would be a threat to anybody, maybe they just want to light a few more ski-hills as a way of drawing tourism, the family type of tourists no 'college kids gone wild'.

Do you have a clue how absurd that statement sounds?
For Christians you guys are terribly paranoid, truly, probably past the point of no return.

Facing the truth is not paranoid, it is simply facing the truth.

You sound like the people of Israel, in the OT, when they got mad at the prophet for telling them what was coming. They demanded he only tell them pleasant things.
Still haven't gotten over what happened when your Shaw got kicked out, nor Cuba kicking out the 'high rolling partiers', you guys are simply amazing.
Our Shah? As in Christians? What are you smoking?

And Castro? You actually admire the Communist? Wow! :eek:

[MHz]

You actually think the world has nothing to fear from wayward Christians and wayward Jews, I'm shocked, really, totally shocked. The spread of Christianity embellished all those who were first to hear about Christ, whoops, I forgot, most if not all of those civilizations were disseminated.
Well, MHz, let me be truthful here.

With your anti-Trinitarian and other non Biblical doctrines, I don't see where you have room to talk about wayward Christians.

You have been the one in the past to study Scripture with recorded history, 17 different sources say the same event happened in a certain year. Several pages later their were many more dates, more than one for the same event.

Spend all that time reading the verses that apply to that subject and the odds are in our favor of reading something that applies we already have a topic on.



But, with that said, such as the RCC saying its doctrine is Christian just doesn't make it so.
Another test question, Christ say what about how to treat your enemies, assuming you could actually prove that an atomic Islam country would be a threat to anybody, maybe they just want to light a few more ski-hills as a way of drawing tourism, the family type of tourists no 'college kids gone wild'.

Do you have a clue how absurd that statement sounds?

What are you saying, no skiers would go to play in all that snow?


For Christians you guys are terribly paranoid, truly, probably past the point of no return.

Facing the truth is not paranoid, it is simply facing the truth.
As told by who, the ones who got booted out of Cuba were rich gamblers,

You sound like the people of Israel, in the OT, when they got mad at the prophet for telling them what was coming. They demanded he only tell them pleasant things.
Still haven't gotten over what happened when your Shaw got kicked out, nor Cuba kicking out the 'high rolling partiers', you guys are simply amazing.
Our Shah? As in Christians? What are you smoking?

The West is considered to be Christian aren't they, the leaders, not the surfs? That Shaw was backed by the West, you live in the West, that makes him your Shaw.

And Castro? You actually admire the Communist? Wow! :eek:
Not that so much as I dislike there being a separation based on wealth, some have lots, most have very little.
That huge petroleum field not long ago should bring their standards of living up somewhat, as long as the profits go to the people who live there.

[lighthouse]

mhz i think the people on this board have bent over backwards to be nice to you
and yet you attack us

so i am giving you a warning

[kay-gee]

Trinitarian?.........all the best.......

[CoreIssue]

Trinitarian?.........all the best.......
Please do not tell me you don't know what that means. :eek:

[kay-gee]

Obviously deals with the so-called trinity. Never heard it as a title before. What do you think about Unitarians?.......all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Obviously deals with the so-called trinity. Never heard it as a title before. What do you think about Unitarians?.......all the best.........
So called Trinity? What is so called about God being a unity of three persons?

That is one of the most fundamental Christian beliefs. It IS biblical.

As for Unitarians, they are a cult. Plain and simple.

[kay-gee]

Of course I believe Gods word. I just not believe Gods word has to fit into the timetable that you have laid down for it. I know you accuse me of being this and that, but really my point is this: I have no issue with Gods plans but I do with time lines. How come every body seems to know this is about to happen and that is gonna happen, when Jesus Himself said only God alone knows these things? He told His closest guys at the beginning of acts, that it wasn't for them to know times and epochs. My issue is and has always been TIMELINE!!! If all these things you declare, happen tomorrow morning, great, I'm OKay with that. If it doesnt take place for another 100, 500, 1000, or million years from now, than that is Gods own providence and time. It's His call. At this point in time Israel, is hardly what you would call restored. Its losing more ground than it's gaining. Prophesy people can't seem to to accept that for some reason. I sense some sort of desperation, for these to happen. All I'm saying is let God work it out in His own Good time...Remember William Miller. He believed in the same rapture as every one else. His problem was time line. now the poor guy has to suffer the annals of history as the great disappointment. all the best............

[CoreIssue]

The Bible says that when Israel is brought back to the land it will never be removed again.

Now, what is so hard to understand about that?

It says the generation that sees Israel restored will see the Second Coming?

And don't go comparing me to Miller. There were SO many prohecies he didn't take into account.

Yeesh! Israel had not be restored so the Rapture could not take place! Just ONE prophecy that denied him.

Your arguments are from human logic. I don't see you referencing anything Biblical on the issues.

As said before, you are in no position to be denying or supporting any End Time doctrine after admitting you have not studied the area.

[kay-gee]

Okays, here is some scripture. Matt24:42, 43, 44, (42)Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming (43) the mechanics of watching for a thief (44) For this reason you be ready too, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Nothing suggests here that this commandment does not apply to everyone for the duration of the Christian era. Faithful Christians living in say 1200 AD (they existed) were expected by this teaching to live their lives like He could return that day! and so we are taught in scripture else where as well. How would these people be able to fore-see much less understand the geopolitical mechanics of Israel restoring in 1948 AD? If they could, then they would have a good case to not have to live too righteously (except when their own death was certain).
Admittedly, I am not a prophesy buff, but I do read the bible, and I understand it's teachings well enough to know a glaring contradiction when I see one. All scripture is God breathed, not just Daniel and Rev. It all has to jibe! As I said before, it's about TIME LINE. Core,bro, in your zeal to see these events occur, don't force the scriptures. I do not want to come across too sharp, cause frankly, I have a whole heap of respect for you, but I can not just lie down at your feet, like a disciple and accept everything you say with-out a challenge!.......all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Okays, here is some scripture. Matt24:42, 43, 44, (42)Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming (43) the mechanics of watching for a thief (44) For this reason you be ready too, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Nothing suggests here that this commandment does not apply to everyone for the duration of the Christian era. Faithful Christians living in say 1200 AD (they existed) were expected by this teaching to live their lives like He could return that day! and so we are taught in scripture else where as well.
Yep. The old grab selective verses and slap your doctrinal meaning on them.

And what about the associated prophecies about vast increases in knowledge, restoration of Israel, which when this was said had not been ended to need restoration, the Gospel being preached to the whole world, vast apostacy first and much more.

Of course a Christians was always to be ready for the coming of Christ! Yeesh!

This is a huge problem with such as Amil. Quote a verse or passage, here and there, reinterpret others and totally disregard others.

You think this passage is the sum total of talking about the Rapture and Second Coming? No.
How would these people be able to fore-see much less understand the geopolitical mechanics of Israel restoring in 1948 AD?
Hello! Read John in Revelation. He writes that those of that day would not understand much of what was written. That the understanding would come with the End Times.

And that has proven so very true.

Think. Russia didn't exist then, in example. So how could they understand prophecies that included it.

If they could, then they would have a good case to not have to live too righteously (except when their own death was certain).

Only in your view.

Think. When one dies suddenly, or any such thing, that puts them on the threshold of the Rapture. That IS the immediate next event of consequence to them.
Admittedly, I am not a prophesy buff, but I do read the bible, and I understand it's teachings well enough to know a glaring contradiction when I see one.
No. You don't. Or you would see you are the one doing the contradictions.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as you have demonstrated here by putting your declarations out based on your assumptions based on a tiny fraction of the Bible, which you are misunderstanding.
All scripture is God breathed, not just Daniel and Rev. It all has to jibe!
It does. But you cannot jibe what you do not even read.

Think about how asburd it is for you to talk about jibing what you haven't read or studied.
As I said before, it's about TIME LINE.
Yes it is. But it requires KNOWLEDGE to be able to discuss it.
Core,bro, in your zeal to see these events occur, don't force the scriptures.
Do you realize how absurd it is for one who has not studied something to lecture those who have?

How presumptious of you.
I do not want to come across too sharp, cause frankly, I have a whole heap of respect for you, but I can not just lie down at your feet, like a disciple and accept everything you say with-out a challenge!.......all the best.........
You don't challeng, KG. You blindly reject.

Get off your high horse and realize that your unstudied opinions based on your personal logic and rationale might be very wrong.

You need to read Job. When he challenged God he was told flat who are you, with no knowledge and so small, on knowing truth, to challenge God?

God told him he did not even begin to understand God's ways because they were so much higher than his. So get over it.

No, I am not God. No, I am not perfect. Yes, I am still learning.

But I will flatly tell you that until you actually have studied it, in depth, who are you to challenge anyone's thinking on such issues?

This is the blind, you, on this issue, trying to tell the sighted, me, on what something looks like.

You don't study what is posted. You just throw out declarations based on what thinking you brought with you. Thinking based on opinion, not Biblical knowledge.

Go, study and then come back and discuss. Until then your personal opinions are no more than that.

You don't like Israel? So what.

You think Church has replaced Israel? God disagrees.

You don't believe Israel can endure. God disagrees.

Until you can post Biblical proof to the contrary, I will stay with what 46 years of Bible study have shown me.

Know what you are talking about before you talk.

[MHz]

mhz i think the people on this board have bent over backwards to be nice to you
and yet you attack us

so i am giving you a warning
Who exactly have I attacked?
The West is either considered to be Christian or it is not, I'm quite sure a poll of people who live in the West would agree that the countries which make up the West are populated for the most part by Christians and the leaders of those countries come from the population that are of the Christian faith.

By extension of that, how is the policy of how a single Christian should treat others applied to how a nation deals with other nations?

M't:5:43:
Ye have heard that it hath been said,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
M't:5:44:
But I say unto you,
Love your enemies,
bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
M't:5:45:
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good,
and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
M't:5:46:
For if ye love them which love you,
what reward have ye?
do not even the publicans the same?
M't:5:47:
And if ye salute your brethren only,
what do ye more than others?
do not even the publicans so?
M't:5:48:
Be ye therefore perfect,
even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does the above Scripture and the below Scripture apply to both individuals and nations or just one?

Ro:12:9:
Let love be without dissimulation.
Abhor that which is evil;
cleave to that which is good.
Ro:12:10:
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
in honour preferring one another;
Ro:12:11:
Not slothful in business;
fervent in spirit;
serving the Lord;
Ro:12:12:
Rejoicing in hope;
patient in tribulation;
continuing instant in prayer;
Ro:12:13:
Distributing to the necessity of saints;
given to hospitality.
Ro:12:14:
Bless them which persecute you:
bless,
and curse not.
Ro:12:15:
Rejoice with them that do rejoice,
and weep with them that weep.
Ro:12:16:
Be of the same mind one toward another.
Mind not high things,
but condescend to men of low estate.
Be not wise in your own conceits.
Ro:12:17:
Recompense to no man evil for evil.
Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Ro:12:18:
If it be possible,
as much as lieth in you,
live peaceably with all men.
Ro:12:19:
Dearly beloved,
avenge not yourselves,
but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written,
Vengeance is mine;
I will repay,
saith the Lord.
Ro:12:20:
Therefore if thine enemy hunger,
feed him;
if he thirst,
give him drink:
for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Ro:12:21:
Be not overcome of evil,
but overcome evil with good.

[CoreIssue]

MHz, you consider yourself a Christian yet say the Shah was MY Shah because the West is considered Christian.

Well, then, my friend, that makes him YOUR Shah as well, since you are from the West.

This is the problem. You selectively apply things.

You are from the West, you claim to be Christian, hence, by your own definitions, he was your Shah as well.

Just an example of bad logic and reason you use.

[MHz]

MHz, you consider yourself a Christian yet say the Shah was MY Shah because the West is considered Christian.

Well, then, my friend, that makes him YOUR Shah as well, since you are from the West.

This is the problem. You selectively apply things.

You are from the West, you claim to be Christian, hence, by your own definitions, he was your Shah as well.

Just an example of bad logic and reason you use.

I don't deny that my country also added political support when he was in power, even today our politicians support actions that are in contrast to the verses I posted. Does that make me proud of them, not in the least. Would they ever admit to being in error, not likely.

Now if you would like to do a present day comparison of the 'beefs' we have with other nations anywhere in the world, and with what countries that we are demanding the UN sanctions against, I would be quite willing to do that.

Our politicians aren't all that strong on being able to say no to US policy, NAFTA being one example, I would hope they have the determination to say 'thanks, but no thanks' to any NAU plans. Any trade agreements with Mexico or any of South America can be made by the countries involved, simple as that. If that doesn't meet US requirement, so be it, it doesn't concern you. Nor do our leaders make it a policy to 'assist foreign leaders' to assume power because that is who we want to deal with. I'm just as sure that even in your own country having politicians that are loyal to America is more important than having leaders that put Canada's needs before the needs of your own people. Do you know of any people who would want that?

Our trade relations could be better today than they are if not for the sanctions of the US, in part because some companies up here have American home bases so that our trade with the US would suffer if we did trade with Cuba.

I seem to recall that legalizing the growing of hemp and the decriminalization of being caught with small amounts of pot was something the US just had to have something to say about even though it was none of your business on either of those two issues. So while we may both be part of the West we are very different people, both in terms of what kind of influence we should have with foreign powers and what kind of influence they should have inside our borders.

Don't forget when traveling abroad Americans, are using the Maple Leaf to identify themselves as Canadians rather than Canadians putting the American flag on something so they will be identified as Americans.

[CoreIssue]

By your logic, he was your Shah as well. Right or wrong?

[kay-gee]

MHz, I take it you are a fellow Canuck! Way to stick up for the old home and native land. I'm glad to have made your aquaintence. .......all the best.......

[CoreIssue]

I was kind of dreading looking at this thread. I totally knew I was gonna get reemed out. The writing is on the wall. I have nothing of value to add to these posts...See ya later.................all the best...........
OK.

But what are you taking away from it? That can be even more important.

[MHz]

By your logic, he was your Shah as well. Right or wrong?
My country didn't help put him in power but because we didn't do anything to stop it is to our shame, not to our glory. So in that respect he was ours also. In the same respect when PM Martin is making deals that benefit America more than Canada he might as well be yours and not ours.

Care to take on these two questions,

By extension of that, how is the policy of how a single Christian should treat others applied to how a nation deals with other nations?

Does the above Scripture and the below Scripture apply to both individuals and nations or just one?

[CoreIssue]

My country didn't help put him in power but because we didn't do anything to stop it is to our shame, not to our glory. So in that respect he was ours also. In the same respect when PM Martin is making deals that benefit America more than Canada he might as well be yours and not ours.

Care to take on these two questions,

By extension of that, how is the policy of how a single Christian should treat others applied to how a nation deals with other nations?

Does the above Scripture and the below Scripture apply to both individuals and nations or just one?
Nations and individuals are not the same, Biblically or logically.

No. Nations, Biblically, are not identical to individuals.

That is a very complex area where individual and nation issues are the same and different.

As in capital punishment. Nations are expected to enforce it, individuals are not authorized for it.

[MHz]

Maybe in their own nations, Romans 13 pretty much sums up the role of rulers.
It even specifies what evil is,
Ro:13:9:
For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;
and if there be any other commandment,
it is briefly comprehended in this saying,
namely,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Do it wrong, like use the sword to create evil and this will happen,

Isa:56:9:
All ye beasts of the field,
come to devour,
yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
Isa:56:10:
His watchmen are blind:
they are all ignorant,
they are all dumb dogs,
they cannot bark;
sleeping,
lying down,
loving to slumber.
Isa:56:11:
Yea,
they are greedy dogs which can never have enough,
and they are shepherds that cannot understand:
they all look to their own way,
every one for his gain,
from his quarter.
Isa:56:12:
Come ye,
say they,
I will fetch wine,
and we will fill ourselves with strong drink;
and to morrow shall be as this day,
and much more abundant.

Jer:25:31:
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth;
for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations,
he will plead with all flesh;
he will give them that are wicked to the sword,
saith the LORD.
Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.
Jer:25:34:
Howl,
ye shepherds,
and cry;
and wallow yourselves in the ashes,
ye principal of the flock:
for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished;
and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.
Jer:25:35:
And the shepherds shall have no way to flee,
nor the principal of the flock to escape.
Jer:25:36:
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard:
for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.
Jer:25:37:
And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jer:25:38:
He hath forsaken his covert,
as the lion:
for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor,
and because of his fierce anger.

[CoreIssue]

While a nation and its leaders are to be moral, they are not the same.

Israel, as covenant, in the OT was under some very different rules of conduct than Gentile nations where.

A soldier/police, as mentioned in the NT, do not wear weapons in vain. Hardly equivalency with the average person.

Nations are not cast into the Lake, people are.

You cannot equate them as you keep trying to do.













.

[MHz]

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21226]While a nation and its leaders are to be moral, they are not the same. [QUOTE]
Are you talking about how its own citizens are treated or how a nation's rulers deal with the rulers of other nations?
Capital punishment would seem to be an internal matter. If several countries have that policy in place it is regulated from within, no other country has the right to determine how that policy is regulated in another country or to comment on it. Yet everyone does it.


[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21226]
Israel, as covenant, in the OT was under some very different rules of conduct than Gentile nations where. [QUOTE]
God gave Israel certain guidelines, if those were followed Israel prospered. When Israel diverted from those guidelines God withdrew protection and being invaded and being carried away as captives was the normal outcome.

Israel is no longer under under any OT rule, they are under NT Law. That applies to people inside and outside her borders.


[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21226]
A soldier/police, as mentioned in the NT, do not wear weapons in vain. Hardly equivalency with the average person. [QUOTE]
They are the sword, which is different from being a ruler. Police being used for incidents within a nations borders, soldiers being used more outside national boundaries.

It is the rulers that are God's servants as specified in Romans 13, this doesn't just apply to the nations of the West (Christians) it applies to all nations no matter what faith the rulers are from. The West will be judged just as surely as every other nation.
This brings up the question of are they (the Christian nations) under a moral obligation to conduct themselves in accordance with what Christ has specified as being the way He wants things done. Basically will Christ hold those who confess that He is Lord to a higher standard of morality than the rulers from another nation who has yet to proclaim Christ is Lord?
Has Israel ever stated that they are Christ's people?
The verses I posted about Shepherds shows there is a dividing line from when the authority to use the sword is not always used to deal with people who are doing evil but is used to benefit just the rulers own personal ambitions.

The sword is only the instrument where peace is concerned. The sword does not judge about it's role, it can only do one of two thing, keep the peace in a land or take the peace away from a land. It is on the heads of the rulers which is which.

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21226]
Nations are not cast into the Lake, people are. [QUOTE]
Certainly when Christ returns He will judge all nations on a basis that covers all individuals based on their own personal conduct. The conduct of the rulers will be used to determine their place for the thousand years, so if you think rulers are somehow exempt from that sort of judgment you are mistaken, that is no different from all the people who are members of the nations. If Christ is going to kill the armies of the nations (sword) then the rulers will also be killed.

This covers rulers and their men that are their sword,
Eze:32:32:
For I have caused my terror in the land of the living:
and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude,
saith the Lord GOD.


[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21226]
You cannot equate them as you keep trying to do. [QUOTE]

Then why bother to declare any nation as being more moral based on the faith of its people or leaders than another nation. An example, the Christian West compared to Islamic Mid East countries. Your money even declares your affiliation to God.

[CoreIssue]

While a nation and its leaders are to be moral, they are not the same.
Are you talking about how its own citizens are treated or how a nation's rulers deal with the rulers of other nations?
Capital punishment would seem to be an internal matter. If several countries have that policy in place it is regulated from within, no other country has the right to determine how that policy is regulated in another country or to comment on it. Yet everyone does it.

Which shows that nations are not under the same standards as individuals.

Biblical standards for individual are for everyone in the world.


Israel, as covenant, in the OT was under some very different rules of conduct than Gentile nations where.
God gave Israel certain guidelines, if those were followed Israel prospered. When Israel diverted from those guidelines God withdrew protection and being invaded and being carried away as captives was the normal outcome.

Israel is no longer under under any OT rule, they are under NT Law. That applies to people inside and outside her borders.

There you go again with putting individual Biblical standards on nations.

Above you just stated each nation is different.


A soldier/police, as mentioned in the NT, do not wear weapons in vain. Hardly equivalency with the average person.
They are the sword, which is different from being a ruler. Police being used for incidents within a nations borders, soldiers being used more outside national boundaries.

And both are government. Arms of the rulers.

It is the rulers that are God's servants as specified in Romans 13, this doesn't just apply to the nations of the West (Christians) it applies to all nations no matter what faith the rulers are from. The West will be judged just as surely as every other nation.

Romans 13 is not written to goverments. It is to individuals.

Verses 1-7 deal with our obligations to government. Verse 9 on are not about government.
This brings up the question of are they (the Christian nations) under a moral obligation to conduct themselves in accordance with what Christ has specified as being the way He wants things done. Basically will Christ hold those who confess that He is Lord to a higher standard of morality than the rulers from another nation who has yet to proclaim Christ is Lord?
God expects more out of Christians than non-Christians.

God blesses or curses nations based on their obedience.

When God blesses a nation, the ungodly benefit from that blessing.

When he curses a nation the Godly hurt from the curse as well.

Within that God blesses and curses individuals based on their conduct.

Gets real complex here, in that God will not aid a Christian if it harms his plan or the freewill of another.

He says that in Eternity, he will make it up to those unjustly suffering.

So, complex. No exact forumla can be laid on it.

Has Israel ever stated that they are Christ's people?

Nope. But a moot point prophetically.

The verses I posted about Shepherds shows there is a dividing line from when the authority to use the sword is not always used to deal with people who are doing evil but is used to benefit just the rulers own personal ambitions.

Yep. And God will judge that.
The sword is only the instrument where peace is concerned.
If you mean national defense and police enforcement, it is an instrument to enforce peace, or defend against evel.
The sword does not judge about it's role,
It is a tool.

it can only do one of two thing, keep the peace in a land or take the peace away from a land. It is on the heads of the rulers which is which.

Sure.

But that is a added frame that does not lie upon individuals nationally speaking.

Yes, the Bible gives the right to personal self defense. But no, it does not give individuals the right to set or enforce law.


Nations are not cast into the Lake, people are.
Certainly when Christ returns He will judge all nations on a basis that covers all individuals based on their own personal conduct.

Absolutely false!

There will be those from within those nations that are blessed while many of those nations will be punished.

The saints will not be at Armageddon. But the national armies of them will, and they will die, in example.
The conduct of the rulers will be used to determine their place for the thousand years,
As nations, yes. As individuals, no.
so if you think rulers are somehow exempt from that sort of judgment you are mistaken,
When did I ever say that? I didn't.

But they will not be judged exactly the same as the citizen will be. They will rise and fall on how the nation as a whole is judged.
that is no different from all the people who are members of the nations.
Ridiculous statement.

Saints and those bearing the AC seal will not be judged the same, in example.

People will see judgement on two levels, personal and nationally. How the national affects them due to living within it is one thing. How they as individuals will be judged is another.
If Christ is going to kill the armies of the nations (sword) then the rulers will also be killed.
But most certainly not all the people of that nation. They do have populations surviving from the Trib into the MK.

This covers rulers and their men that are their sword,
Eze:32:32:
For I have caused my terror in the land of the living:
and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude,
saith the Lord GOD.

Actually, it is more complex than that.

It shows the ungodly of Israel will be in the same graves as the unglody of Egypt.

So, not everyone within the nation will be the same.

You cannot equate them as you keep trying to do.
Then why bother to declare any nation as being more moral based on the faith of its people or leaders than another nation. An example, the Christian West compared to Islamic Mid East countries. Your money even declares your affiliation to God.[/quote]
Because national idenity is not the same as individual identity.

There are Christians in the Islamic nations who are not our enemies.

There are Islamics in our nations that are our enemies.

But, as nations, the resources and armies of the Islamic nations are our enemies.

And the West Christian? When did I EVER agree with that statement?

There are far more Chistians in the West than the East, but that doesn't qualify any nation as Christian anymore.

100 years ago, the US did qualify. But not now.

Other western nations ceased to qualify even longer ago.

[kay-gee]

Does that mean that guys like Stalin, Hitler, Count Dracula etc... are going to be in the MK, because they kings, whether good or bad? If so, will they be living a pretty good and toned down life? ..........all the best........

[CoreIssue]

Does that mean that guys like Stalin, Hitler, Count Dracula etc... are going to be in the MK, because they kings, whether good or bad? If so, will they be living a pretty good and toned down life? ..........all the best........
Christ will be ruling over them. Like Rome with subject nations.

So, what do you think?

[MHz]

Does that mean that guys like Stalin, Hitler, Count Dracula etc... are going to be in the MK, because they kings, whether good or bad? If so, will they be living a pretty good and toned down life? ..........all the best........

I wouldn't bet on anybody that was a tyrant as being in the thousand years, that is for the ones who will be priests and kings to God and the Lamb after Judgment Day in the new earth. Will there be some in the thousand years that one might not expect to see there, the ones that God ordered killed in the OT would seem to qualify as being 'beheaded for the word of God', they were killed not because they wouldn't convert but as an example to Israel of the power of God.

Will the ones you mentioned be alive in the new earth? If they are it will be only by the mercy of God on Judgment Day. Job says sin is sealed up in a bag at death, the NT says that anybody raised is raised without corruption.

[CoreIssue]

OK, KG.

Point I was making is that there won't be any of that scale in the MK.

There will be sin, disobedient nations, freewill and such.

But Satan will be bound, so I believe demons will be bound as well.

But there will still be human nature.

OT prophecy says their will be disobedient nations. And Christ will withhold rain from their them.

As for what MHz is saying, it isn't Biblical. The number of people who believe anything resembling what he says is extremely small.

He and I have discussed it to ad nasuam, so no benefit in repeating it over and over. Feel free to discuss it with him if you like.

Just don't make the mistake thinking he believes anything resembling Amillennialism. He doesn't.

[MHz]

Which shows that nations are not under the same standards as individuals.
Biblical standards for individual are for everyone in the world.
There you go again with putting individual Biblical standards on nations.

So you are saying that a nation run by professed Christians can act as unmoral as they see fit and then when they are before Christ He is going to be silent about their conduct while being a ruler.




Above you just stated each nation is different.

And both are government. Arms of the rulers.

Romans 13 is not written to goverments. It is to individuals.

Verses 1-7 deal with our obligations to government. Verse 9 on are not about government.

God expects more out of Christians than non-Christians.

Romans 13 explains to Christians who is their Shepherd until Christ returns and that is the rulers of the nations. The rulers are the government, the sword is the people employed by the government that deal with 'evil acts', arrest, trial and punishment. That would be more like the staff of a shepherd.




God blesses or curses nations based on their obedience.
When God blesses a nation, the ungodly benefit from that blessing.
When he curses a nation the Godly hurt from the curse as well.
Within that God blesses and curses individuals based on their conduct.
Gets real complex here, in that God will not aid a Christian if it harms his plan or the freewill of another.
All we have are the Shepherds God left us, the welfare of the flock is wholly dependent on how just and righteous those Shepherds are. Just and righteous are not qualities exclusive to Christians.


He says that in Eternity, he will make it up to those unjustly suffering.
Does that cover most people who have shed tears?


So, complex. No exact forumla can be laid on it.

No, but Christians do have the Bible and in there certain guidelines are laid out. Nowhere does it say a Christian is only supposed to do what Christ has said in certain circumstances, nor does it say those rules of conduct are void as soon as you enter into a role of ruler (government). It would also seem that a person that says they have accepted Christ (and then doesn't follow through on the doing part) faces more wrath than a person who has not yet accepted Him,

Lu:12:43:
Blessed is that servant,
whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Lu:12:44:
Of a truth I say unto you,
that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Lu:12:45:
But and if that servant say in his heart,
My lord delayeth his coming;
and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens,
and to eat and drink,
and to be drunken;
Lu:12:46:
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him,
and at an hour when he is not aware,
and will cut him in sunder,
and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Lu:12:47:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu:12:48:
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.


When Christ's sword is in action at His return and He is judging the nations, it is not the(nation as a whole), it is the whole of the individuals of the nation that are judged. If there was one just person in a nation, after the sword one person would be left standing. The fire in this verse would not affect those who are not living carelessly in the isles,
Eze:39:6:
And I will send a fire on Magog,
and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.

[MHz]

OT prophecy says their will be disobedient nations. And Christ will withhold rain from their them.

Just don't make the mistake thinking he believes anything resembling Amillennialism. He doesn't.
Finally a short post.
If no nations refuse to come to the feast then there would be no witholding of the rain, right? Just because there is a consequence for an action doesn't mean the action will definately occur.

Core is right about my view on amill, I may not have all the finer points down but the little I have read, I would suggest another possibility.

[CoreIssue]

With respect, MHz, you arguments are either getting absurd, you are so wrapped up in what you are saying you don't bother to understand my answers or you have no interest in anything but trying to make your position look right and everyone elses ridiculous.

Really, you are truly way out there in your beliefs. Reject the deity of Christ, the Trinity, salvation without works, and tons of other things.

We are not going to agree. That sums it up pretty nicely.

And you are not going to convince others of your positions. Too many holes in them.

[MHz]

This is the third long chat we've had, I don't see any reason to carry on.
You won't be able to comprehend any of what I say because it has to mesh with your understanding without affecting a single item in what you already believe.

Don't concern yourself about my relationship with God, be concerned only with your own.

What I say is not as unique as you may think, it certainly solves the holes that most doctrines promote, like pre-trib removal of the Church and sin being present in Christ's Kingdom during the first thousand years, that one, if anything should be a red flag to that teaching. He kills all the wicked at His return, if the thousand years starts without sinners it will have no sinners when that thousand years is up just before Satan is released.
The really humble part is if you have just one part in error the whole picture can change, I've had to admit to some errors but the picture after going over all my other 'doctrines' did change, and it changed for the better.

Take care, bye.
Wayne

Have faith in God

[kay-gee]

Let me get this straight. The MK as you call it is a period of time right here on planet earth. Everybody will be living in Jerusalem, including all of history's rulers good or bad, the Jews will be the elite class, worshipping in their new temple, with that good old-time religion, sacrificing heifers and such. Wouldn't Adolf Hitler feel a little uncomfortable living there?...just asking!.......all the best.........PS I always thought the lake of fire was for dudes like him!

[CoreIssue]

This is the third long chat we've had, I don't see any reason to carry on.
You won't be able to comprehend any of what I say because it has to mesh with your understanding without affecting a single item in what you already believe.
That is where you are wrong.

What makes you think after talking with so many people for so many years I don't 'get' where you are coming from?

You do not understand the distinction between understanding you and totally disagreeing with you.

I do get where you are coming from. And it is wrong, to be blunt.

Don't concern yourself about my relationship with God, be concerned only with your own.

Well, I am concerned with both. But there is a point after which I cease to be concerned with that of others who cannot even get past the simple point of using proper grammar and word definitions to read.

Plain and simply, you invent your own and then try the old cliche of Bible interpreting Bible.

An absurd claim when it begins with a rejection of how to read to start with.

Yes, the Bible does harmonize with itself and makes clear what all is being said.

No, it does not have an 'other worldy' set of rules for reading and 'its own' word definitions, apart from how everyone else reads words.
What I say is not as unique as you may think, it certainly solves the holes that most doctrines promote,
Sorry, but it is down right strange. You are fringe to the fringe.

And what holes?

The only holes I see is where you cannot deal with whole chapters of the Bible at a time, Cannot read in order given, do not use accurate word definitions and disregard common rules of grammar.

Yep, you have statements. But no, the words you try to support them with are either not there or say something else.
like pre-trib removal of the Church
Only a problem for those into Replacement Theology.
and sin being present in Christ's Kingdom during the first thousand years,
Yep. Exactly as the Bible says there is.
that one, if anything should be a red flag to that teaching.
Nope. The red flag is what you claim versus Isaiah, Zechariah and others.

He kills all the wicked at His return, if the thousand years starts without sinners it will have no sinners when that thousand years is up just before Satan is released.

An ill thought out statement.

There is birth in the MK. And those born have sin natures and the freewill to choose.

Which some clearly choose to reject Christ per the prophets and the mere fact the Short Time happens at all.
The really humble part is if you have just one part in error the whole picture can change,
Yes, but you have lists of errors shown to you and you still refuse to see it.

I've had to admit to some errors but the picture after going over all my other 'doctrines' did change, and it changed for the better.

Wayne, I have changed drastically in my decades of study. You seem to think I believe now exactly what I believed as a teenager. Which I do not.
Take care, bye.
Wayne

Have faith in God
You take care as well.

[MHz]

Yep. Exactly as the Bible says there is.

Nope. The red flag is what you claim versus Isaiah, Zechariah and others.

Wayne, I have changed drastically in my decades of study. You seem to think I believe now exactly what I believed as a teenager. Which I do not.



the very verses you say that belong to the thousand years, not that it is actually so, contradicts that sin is present,
Isa:65:23:
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

Trouble in verse 23 would include any sin. Doesn't exactly describe rampant sin that would have to be present in order to have a number 'as the sands of the sea' by the end of a thousand years.

Nor do the verses that do apply to the thousand years indicate any sin,

Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:

That is the way the whole thousand years goes, that 'another name' also takes care of any so called pre-trib,
Re:3:12:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

You should try to read and understand Scripture with your heart instead of your mind.




I still believe what I believed back before I was even a teen. Fear somebody (respect) that can speak to the earth so that the earth will case an earthquake that kills only the ones God wants put in their graves.

[CoreIssue]

the very verses you say that belong to the thousand years, not that it is actually so, contradicts that sin is present,
Isa:65:23:
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

Trouble in verse 23 would include any sin. Doesn't exactly describe rampant sin that would have to be present in order to have a number 'as the sands of the sea' by the end of a thousand years.
Well, again you stumble over the KJV and do not read the correct meaning in it.


23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them. 24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
It is talking about child bearing, not sin.
Nor do the verses that do apply to the thousand years indicate any sin,
Those do apply. Talking about reality in Israel in the MK.

Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:

Second Coming, not MK.

Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:

That is the way the whole thousand years goes, that 'another name' also takes care of any so called pre-trib,

Nope. That is the Second Coming in Isaiah, which kicks off the MK.

Re:3:12:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

You should try to read and understand Scripture with your heart instead of your mind.

That is to the Church Age, not the Trib or MK.

Oh, yea, interpret by feelings. Just like the Mormons, JW's, and a ton of other cults do.

Forget what is being actually said. Just listen to your heart and let the Holy Spirit tell you what it means.

Hmmmm. Seems to forget that demons are speak to ones heart as well.
I still believe what I believed back before I was even a teen. Fear somebody (respect) that can speak to the earth so that the earth will case an earthquake that kills only the ones God wants put in their graves.
Care to define just who that includes?

[lighthouse]

God does not bypass the mind to get to the heart

[MHz]

Well, again you stumble over the KJV and do not read the correct meaning in it.

[quote]
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them. 24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
It is talking about child bearing, not sin.

'(Not) doomed to misfortune' is sin and the punishment associated with sin.

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21309]
Quote:
Nor do the verses that do apply to the thousand years indicate any sin,
Those do apply. Talking about reality in Israel in the MK.
Quote:
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Second Coming, not MK.
Quote:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:

That is the way the whole thousand years goes, that 'another name' also takes care of any so called pre-trib,
Nope. That is the Second Coming in Isaiah, which kicks off the MK. [QUOTE]

Sure, Christ's servants eat, drink, rejoice, and sing for , what a day? They do that very thing for the whole thousand years.

Sure, the ones killed by the sword are hungry, thirsty, cry for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit for a very short time. These are part 'the rest', some are in this state for the whole of the thousand years. It's called being in hell.

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;21309]
Quote:
Re:3:12:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.

You should try to read and understand Scripture with your heart instead of your mind.
That is to the Church Age, not the Trib or MK.

The overcoming is done, or not done, by the time if Christ's return, the same time rewards are handed out. Those who receive any reward at that time stay inside new Jerusalem, the people alive for the thousand years are the temple, priests and kings to both God and the Lamb.


Oh, yea, interpret by feelings. Just like the Mormons, JW's, and a ton of other cults do.

Forget what is being actually said. Just listen to your heart and let the Holy Spirit tell you what it means.

Such bitterness towards others who are searching Scripture just as hard as you and I, it is bitterness that is more a threat to you than they are.
I have never been a member of either but would I refuse to talk about the Bible with them, NEVER. I am strong enough to say something to them, whether it be in agreement or disagreement, they aren't a threat to the way I understand Scripture, nor are you.

It's called faith in Christ, that once He has gathered somebody they stay gathered. Forget the difference we have about when children are born, just go with that there will be some born when Satan is no longer an influence them. At the start of the thousand years Christ controls the whole ball. Nobody left alive is wicked, the right number from the 12 Tribes of Israel, the right number from the Gentiles. Whether it be at the thousand years or the new earth to say that any fall into sin is akin to saying that the High Priest to Mankind loses more than what has been determined to be lost at the beginning of the thousand years, even worse numbers if it is in the new earth.

Christ has total authority of Mankind. That's it for sin being anywhere around the whole Earth, ever. The Gog and Magog are 'created' when Christ arrives, this is the places that the bones of Satan's followers will be gathered, first in Israel then throughout the whole world. I assume those employed by them to find and mark all the bones could be either Gentiles or the 144,000.
I tend to think that is the end of sin, Judgment Day is the end of Death, not for any who have died in that thousand years, but for those dead for that time.

This ending could have been so much quicker if you had only said just the last sentence in your post.

Know any liberal political chat sites, I tried the UN but I couldn't find the link a feedback on what they have broadcast. Did you catch the one when the the ruler of Iran didn't make it FWR? The news conference was kinda weird eh? Wonder what was whispered in the background when the US was on camera? Wonder when Iran should bring up the issue of maybe a meeting with Iran on putting up a border that extends to open ocean. Fishing rights here in Canada are 250 miles.

[MHz]

God does not bypass the mind to get to the heart
Now that you are totally bored, two short questions,
1, have you never laughed or cried when reading Scripture or when replying to some post that involves reading Scripture?
2, are you the same lighthouse from RR?

[CoreIssue]

[quote=CoreIssue;21309]
Well, again you stumble over the KJV and do not read the correct meaning in it.


It is talking about child bearing, not sin.

'(Not) doomed to misfortune' is sin and the punishment associated with sin.

It is talking about child bearing, not sin.

Child bearing IS due to the sin of Eve.

[QUOTE]
That is the way the whole thousand years goes, that 'another name' also takes care of any so called pre-trib,
Nope. That is the Second Coming in Isaiah, which kicks off the MK.

Sure, Christ's servants eat, drink, rejoice, and sing for , what a day? They do that very thing for the whole thousand years.

That was totally meaningless regarding Pre-Trib.

Sure, the ones killed by the sword are hungry, thirsty, cry for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit for a very short time. These are part 'the rest', some are in this state for the whole of the thousand years. It's called being in hell.

Which has nothing to do with being in the MK on the earth.
The overcoming is done, or not done, by the time if Christ's return, the same time rewards are handed out.
The overcoming verse is to the Church, not the MK.

But there is still those who will be saved and lost in the MK.
Those who receive any reward at that time stay inside new Jerusalem,
NJ is in Heaven during the MK. And no, the Church comes with Christ at the Second Coming. It does not stay in the NJ.
the people alive for the thousand years are the temple, priests and kings to both God and the Lamb.
Really? Not all, actually.

Such bitterness towards others who are searching Scripture just as hard as you and I, it is bitterness that is more a threat to you than they are.

What bitterness. Just dismay you are so blinded by all these theories and such you have created. Meaningless.

I have never been a member of either but would I refuse to talk about the Bible with them, NEVER. I am strong enough to say something to them, whether it be in agreement or disagreement, they aren't a threat to the way I understand Scripture, nor are you.

Who ever said a threat to me?

But those who wander far down erroneous paths are into Apostacy.

It's called faith in Christ, that once He has gathered somebody they stay gathered. Forget the difference we have about when children are born, just go with that there will be some born when Satan is no longer an influence them. At the start of the thousand years Christ controls the whole ball. Nobody left alive is wicked, the right number from the 12 Tribes of Israel, the right number from the Gentiles. Whether it be at the thousand years or the new earth to say that any fall into sin is akin to saying that the High Priest to Mankind loses more than what has been determined to be lost at the beginning of the thousand years, even worse numbers if it is in the new earth.

Well, you sure twisted that.

Nowhere does it say everyone who enters the MK is saved. No where.

It says those who take the mark die. It does not say every unsaved dies.

It says there will be sinners in the MK. It does not say MK saints will fall away from Christ.

You have sin conditions existing while claiming there is no sin. Contradiction, plain and simple.
Christ has total authority of Mankind.
Yep. But that does not mean freewill ends.
That's it for sin being anywhere around the whole Earth, ever.
Nonsense.
The Gog and Magog are 'created' when Christ arrives,
Absurd! Those peoples have existed for thousands of years.
this is the places that the bones of Satan's followers will be gathered,
God and Magog are a people, not a place.

first in Israel then throughout the whole world. I assume those employed by them to find and mark all the bones could be either Gentiles or the 144,000.

More false assumptions.

It says the 144,000 are with Christ all the time.

I tend to think that is the end of sin, Judgment Day is the end of Death, not for any who have died in that thousand years, but for those dead for that time.

Nope. White Throne is AFTER the MK. Where ALL the sinners of ALL times are judged.

There are NO more to add to that number when the earth is destroyed after the Short Time.
This ending could have been so much quicker if you had only said just the last sentence in your post.
By itself, that would be a lie.

It was actually a critcism of what you said.
Know any liberal political chat sites, I tried the UN but I couldn't find the link a feedback on what they have broadcast. Did you catch the one when the the ruler of Iran didn't make it FWR? The news conference was kinda weird eh? Wonder what was whispered in the background when the US was on camera? Wonder when Iran should bring up the issue of maybe a meeting with Iran on putting up a border that extends to open ocean. Fishing rights here in Canada are 250 miles.
You cannot be serious. Or else you have no comprehension of Shia, Sunni and the others.

As for Canada, no country controls the oceans farther than 10 miles out. Period.

[MHz]

Quote:
first in Israel then throughout the whole world. I assume those employed by them to find and mark all the bones could be either Gentiles or the 144,000.
More false assumptions.

"It says the 144,000 are with Christ all the time."
Yep, you are right, probably the Church, or are we the ones making plow-shears?

"As for Canada, no country controls the oceans farther than 10 miles out. Period."

We have arrested fishing vessels for taking more than an allotted amount, as in Spain.

How can you get to 'open ocean' twice? If you enter through a channel that is void of being 'open ocean' the that is behind you, what is ahead in a dead end, like that body of water 'over there' should belong to that nations that border it. Nobody but Canada has any claim to Hudson's Bay and it certainly has water more than 10 miles from shore, like in hundreds of miles. No 'open ocean' signs anywhere.

[kay-gee]

I am sorry, Core, but something you said a couple of posts ago, created a real puzzle for me. I am sure you can clear it up. We agree that salvation is by faith, right? Now in this MK, you said there are people being saved and being lost. So if this MK is a literal earthly thing and everything is out in the open, then where does faith come into it. (Heb 11:1)? Are you saying then, that there is a dramatic change in the deployment of salvation. It would seem, that salvation by faith would no longer be, and instead the gospel would have to be salvation by sight. Dosen't seem fair to rest of us that slugged it out on pure faith. any comments to this issue appreciated. Thanks ....all the best.......

[CTZonEdit]

So why is it that you both MHz and kg seem to believe that humans are all of a sudden going to change because Jesus is physically ruling in the MK?

Hello? He was here before proclaiming to be God and people did not believe. Performed miracles before their eyes they denied, lied and so on.

You both fail to grasp the entire picture of what God is going to accomplish and the totality of sin nature.

People are not going to like the fact that Jesus is ruling over them in the MK. Many will resent and hate him for it. You need to get over the idea that just because they see Him that they believe, love and will follow Him.

My goodness Satan was right there with God almighty and he still fell! That should clue you both in that there is so much more going on about the nature of sin than what you blindly believe.

[kay-gee]

Does that mean then that in MK there will be no bible, that the Word of God will have run its course? New rules as it were?..........all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

I am sorry, Core, but something you said a couple of posts ago, created a real puzzle for me. I am sure you can clear it up.
No problem.
We agree that salvation is by faith, right?
Right.
Now in this MK, you said there are people being saved and being lost. So if this MK is a literal earthly thing and everything is out in the open, then where does faith come into it. (Heb 11:1)? Are you saying then, that there is a dramatic change in the deployment of salvation. It would seem, that salvation by faith would no longer be, and instead the gospel would have to be salvation by sight. Dosen't seem fair to rest of us that slugged it out on pure faith. any comments to this issue appreciated. Thanks ....all the best.......
Good question.

First, faith means trust. We trust people and things we see, handle and so on. So it doesn't have to be completely unseen to be faith. And there are always aspects we do not know that we just accept and trust on faith.

There isn't a dramatic change in deployment of salvation. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. From Adam on to the end of time.

Satan and the Fallen Angels saw God. But they did not have faith God was all powerful. They rebelled, actually thinking they could over-throw him.

Satan never stops believing he can be over-thrown. In the Trib he is still trying.

Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden. Yet, where was their faith when tested?

Yes, the world will see Christ, the glorified saints and angels.

But, there are things they will not see, as in Heaven, Eternity and much more. So, they can doubt and lack faith if they want to.

Do you think there will be none who see Christ and such as aliens, conquering the earth and pretending to be gods? A recurring theme in SciFi and fantasy that will be carried, even if only by memory, into the Trib.

The Pharisees and Sadducees, among many others, saw Christ and what he did, knew the prophecies and were looking for the Messiah. Did they accept him by faith or did then demand the Messiah be in their image instead of his own?

Look at efforts they put out to deny him.

Faith can be lacking when the proof is right in front of you, if you don't want to believe what is right in front of you.

Examples right now:
1. Amillennialism was founded and progressed on the idea that Israel was gone and the Church replaced it.

Then up pops the prophecy fulfillment of the restoration of Israel, in contradiction to their claims of the past.

Now, instead of questioning the spiritualizing away the prophecy, they are trying explain away Israel being back.

2. JW's saying only 144,000 will go to heaven and it should have ended a long time ago. So, with all those declared destined for Heaven exceeding 144,000, they are not questioning the facts, but trying to explain around it.

3. People saying we can make peace and co-exist with Islam flying in the face of the Mid East and examples of issues occuring in Michigan, France and other places where they are trying to enforce Sharia Law.

Food for thought.

[kay-gee]

Also, won't the folks in the MK have the added benefit of 2000 years of Christian history to reflect upon. I take it Jesus will be ruling in a palace in Jerusalem. Not the same as the nobody itinerant preaher born in a manger of the first coming. Also if Satan is bound for those 1000 years then, it should be a shoe-in, to accept Christ. No?.....all the best.....

[kay-gee]

In response to your last post...Good points all of them. I will have to think on that a while and see if it digests.....all the best........

[kay-gee]

Also what if, Satan masterminded this latest appearance of Israel, in order to divide and conquer us as believers? He is the author of dissonance and strife to be sure, and if this his doing, than he is being quite successful at it. Don't know, but I'm looking at all the possibilities and trying to address them one at time.....all the best....

[CoreIssue]

Also, won't the folks in the MK have the added benefit of 2000 years of Christian history to reflect upon. I take it Jesus will be ruling in a palace in Jerusalem. Not the same as the nobody itinerant preaher born in a manger of the first coming. Also if Satan is bound for those 1000 years then, it should be a shoe-in, to accept Christ. No?.....all the best.....
Why exclude the OT? Church can learn a ton from them. MK can learn from both.

I believe he will rule from the Temple.

Still Messiah. But now also king and fully God, because he no longer needs to set aside his divine powers and rights.

Shoe in? No!

Why aren't you learning the lesson of the Fall of Satan and the Fallen Angels? 1/3 had direct access to God and still rebelled.

[MHz]

So why is it that you both MHz and kg seem to believe that humans are all of a sudden going to change because Jesus is physically ruling in the MK?
The only ones alive at the start of the thousand years are believers, that is how they get to be in the thousand years, there is no need to change. If this time was to change people the the wicked would be allowed into the thousand years, they aren't they are killed when He first comes back.

Hello? He was here before proclaiming to be God and people did not believe. Performed miracles before their eyes they denied, lied and so on.
Jesus accomplished all He was supposed to at that time. Why do you think some things were to remain 'unspoken of' until after the cross. If they were meant to accept Him at that time then dieing on the cross would have caused what?


You both fail to grasp the entire picture of what God is going to accomplish and the totality of sin nature.
What you fail to grasp is that the thousand years starts with zero sinners. If you think by the end of the thousand sinners will be as numerous as 'sands of the sea' then you also fail to grasp just who Christ is.


People are not going to like the fact that Jesus is ruling over them in the MK. Many will resent and hate him for it. You need to get over the idea that just because they see Him that they believe, love and will follow Him.

So believers in Christ, that believe in Him through the Bible, will stop believing in Him once He is there in person and talking to everybody face-to-face. That is quite the concept, really, really bad concept.


My goodness Satan was right there with God almighty and he still fell! That should clue you both in that there is so much more going on about the nature of sin than what you blindly believe.

Sure doesn't sound like God was right there when Satan and Adam and Eve sinned. Adam and Eve didn't sin before that one event. Your version of sin is when God says 'don't' people will automatically 'do'. I don't think you can even prove that Eve had met God, the command she said to Satan has one part in it that God never gave to Adam, the part about touching it, it was Adam who taught Eve, nor could he warn her about liars.

Ge:3:11:
And he said,
Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree,
whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Ge:3:12:
And the man said,
The woman whom thou gavest to be with me,
she gave me of the tree,
and I did eat.
Ge:3:13:
And the LORD God said unto the woman,
What is this that thou hast done?
And the woman said,
The serpent beguiled me,
and I did eat.
Ge:3:14:
And the LORD God said unto the serpent,
Because thou hast done this,
thou art cursed above all cattle,
and above every beast of the field;
upon thy belly shalt thou go,
and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Ge:3:15:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head,
and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Ge:3:16:
Unto the woman he said,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;
in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;
and thy desire shall be to thy husband,
and he shall rule over thee.
Ge:3:17:
And unto Adam he said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree,
of which I commanded thee,
saying,
Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Ge:3:18:
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Ge:3:19:
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art,
and unto dust shalt thou return.

Satan and the fallen angels do end up with their own place, the Lake of Fire.

[kay-gee]

I still don't understand how there could be sin in a place where Satan (The big boss of evil and sin), has been bound away in chains in a pit. When man originally sinned, they loosed the Devil and his ability to exercise power over the creation. James 4:7 say resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Can't see why any resisting if the Devil is not there to be resisted. 1 Peter4:8 The devil prowls like a lion seeking folks to devour. Can't be devouring if he's in the slammer! Right?.......all the best...........

[CTZonEdit]

Because Satan is not Sin.

Sin is a choice every living being has the ability to choose Sin.

Sin something larger than even Satan. Sin will not be done away with until it is thrown into the Lake along with Hell and Death after the MK.

So the people in the MK will have the same natures and choices as everyone else that has ever existed or ever will. The ability to choose God or not.

To negate that choice is neither right, or just or loving.

[MHz]

Because Satan is not Sin.
Rules define sin, Adam and Eve had one rule, do not eat from that one tree.
Angels also have rules or Satan could not have 'sinned'. In the Garden he lied and that lie caused death.

Joh:8:44:
Ye are of your father the devil,
and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,
and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own:
for he is a liar,
and the father of it.

Now if you think there will be no rules for man in the new Earth, then this verse means nothing. Rules are meant to be obeyed, they are not an invitation to do something.

Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You have "X" number of people who enter the new Earth, these people still know about good and evil, what is stated above applies to them. Just because there is Law does not mean there are any who break anything in that Law.
The thousand years is no different, the ones invited to that time already have a relationship with Christ.
The reason Christ is called the "good shepherd" is because He can and does care for, and keep safe, the whole flock. Anybody who has lived through 'the trib' has seen His power when He returned, nobody is going to 'fight against Him', everybody else would have to have been resurrected from the grave, they certainly aren't going to fight against Him.

As to why you can't believe those in the thousand years have already accepted Christ and have them rebel after a thousand years is a real mystery.

Joh:10:24:
Then came the Jews round about him,
and said unto him,
How long dost thou make us to doubt?
If thou be the Christ,
tell us plainly.
Joh:10:25:
Jesus answered them,
I told you,
and ye believed not:
the works that I do in my Father's name,
they bear witness of me.
Joh:10:26:
But ye believe not,
because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.
Joh:10:27:
My sheep hear my voice,
and I know them,
and they follow me:
Joh:10:28:
And I give unto them eternal life;
and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh:10:29:
My Father,
which gave them me,
is greater than all;
and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh:10:30:
I and my Father are one.



Sin is a choice every living being has the ability to choose Sin.
Since Adam everybody ever born was born into sin, except Jesus, so that ability, to choose not to sin is not even there



Sin something larger than even Satan. Sin will not be done away with until it is thrown into the Lake along with Hell and Death after the MK.
Scripture says nothing about sin being cast into the lake.


So the people in the MK will have the same natures and choices as everyone else that has ever existed or ever will. The ability to choose God or not.
And untold billions will reject Him, I don't believe you. Everybody is with Christ for the thousand years will betray Him by following Satan at the drop of a hat, no way pal.
Look for the 'sands of the sea' in other places, you will not find any who have been with Christ do anything but stand fast with Him for Satan's little season. You already have three choices, the ones whose bones are gathered and buried in Ezekiel 39 (Gog and Magog are two choices since they die differently and in different places)and you also have the rest of the fallen angels, take your pick, some or all of those 3


To negate that choice is neither right, or just or loving.
The whole point of Christ laying down His life for the sheep was part of being a 'good shepherd', once He has His flock He will loose nothing.

Joh:10:4:
And when he putteth forth his own sheep,
he goeth before them,
and the sheep follow him:
for they know his voice.
Joh:10:5:
And a stranger will they not follow,
but will flee from him:
for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh:10:6:
This parable spake Jesus unto them:
but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Joh:10:7:
Then said Jesus unto them again,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
I am the door of the sheep.
Joh:10:8:
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:
but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh:10:9:
I am the door:
by me if any man enter in,
he shall be saved,
and shall go in and out,
and find pasture.
Joh:10:10:
The thief cometh not,
but for to steal,
and to kill,
and to destroy:
I am come that they might have life,
and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh:10:11:
I am the good shepherd:
the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh:10:12:
But he that is an hireling,
and not the shepherd,
whose own the sheep are not,
seeth the wolf coming,
and leaveth the sheep,
and fleeth:
and the wolf catcheth them,
and scattereth the sheep.
Joh:10:13:
The hireling fleeth,
because he is an hireling,
and careth not for the sheep.
Joh:10:14:
I am the good shepherd,
and know my sheep,
and am known of mine.
Joh:10:15:
As the Father knoweth me,
even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh:10:16:
And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold,
and one shepherd.
Joh:10:17:
Therefore doth my Father love me,
because I lay down my life,
that I might take it again.
Joh:10:18:
No man taketh it from me,
but I lay it down of myself.
I have power to lay it down,
and I have power to take it again.
This commandment have I received of my Father.

[CTZonEdit]

People chose God or they chose not to do what God said which is what sin is. Its that simple.

Not going to get into everything its been done before and you are just blind, but its your complete failure to understand the basic foundation that Satan fell before Adam and Eve ever existed. So everything else you present is moot.

[lighthouse]

i could argue with you mhz
but will not allow you to draw me into that

you just want to ''spout'' what you believe and be or have the
final say

so this thread is done