View Full Version : Parable of Matt:20
Hi Core,
We started talking about who the 11th hour workers are on another thread.
Your position is that they are the Church, more specifically, the pre-trib Church which is removed before the second coming of Christ. I hope I have that correct.
Whereas I see the 11th hour workers as being the last that are offered a drink of the living water. If the last was the pre-trib Church then who are the ones that are separate from those, yet are still alive for the thousand years.
Would the two witnesses qualify as workers?
What about these ones?
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Da:11:32:
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries:
but the people that do know their God shall be strong,
and do exploits.
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.
Da:11:34:
Now when they shall fall,
they shall be holpen with a little help:
but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Da:11:35:
And some of them of understanding shall fall,
to try them,
and to purge,
and to make them white,
even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed.
There would also seem qualify as being part of the 'workers'.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb:12:28:
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,
let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Before I post too much on this lets see what disagreements we have.
Vs:1 is about God, and His Kingdom has been forever in the past and forever in the future.
Early morning is as far back as Adam's time
M't:20:1:
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder,
which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
I'm not sure why you would call these the Church, they have been standing around being idle.
M't:20:6:
And about the eleventh hour he went out,
and found others standing idle,
and saith unto them,
Why stand ye here all the day idle?
M't:20:7:
They say unto him,
Because no man hath hired us.
He saith unto them,
Go ye also into the vineyard;
and whatsoever is right,
that shall ye receive.
Or has the last 2000 years been part of that last hour?
If that is the case, then it refers to Gentiles who are idle before the Gospel could be preached to them. The end of the day is not when a pre-trib would happen. Rewards are given out at Christ's return though.
Who is speaking these words?
M't:20:15:
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil,
because I am good?
I would have to go with God and this being the GWT, rather than who Christ rewards at His second coming.
M't:20:23:
And he saith unto them,
Ye shall drink indeed of my cup,
and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:
but to sit on my right hand,
and on my left,
is not mine to give,
but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
If the 4 groups doesn't cover all of mankind who does it cover and who does it not cover?
Later
CoreIssue
05-05-2007, 02:00 PM
The reason the Church is the last called and first rewarded is that Israel, the first called, is not complete until the end of the MK.
Simple as that.
Hi Core,
The reason the Church is the last called and first rewarded is that Israel, the first called, is not complete until the end of the MK.
Simple as that.
M't:20:16:
So the last shall be first,
and the first last:
for many be called,
but few chosen.
So would line 1 be this verse?
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
They are all paid at the same time at the end of the day. When does the 11th hour end for the Church?
Israel would seem to be a complete Nation when Christ returns at the start of the thousand years. Ez:37 has a dozen verses that describe how they come to be called a whole House.
How would they be exempt from this verse;
M't:22:30:
For in the resurrection they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.
The thousand years is different from the new Earth, these verses are about the new Earth,
Isa:60:19:
The sun shall be no more thy light by day;
neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee:
but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light,
and thy God thy glory.
Isa:60:20:
Thy sun shall no more go down;
neither shall thy moon withdraw itself:
for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light,
and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Isa:60:21:
Thy people also shall be all righteous:
they shall inherit the land for ever,
the branch of my planting,
the work of my hands,
that I may be glorified.
Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
When John and Jesus are on this mountain, are they looking at a world full of life or on one that looks like it would after fire from God in Heaven has destroyed Satan at the end of his little season,
Re:21:9:
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,
and talked with me,
saying,
Come hither,
I will shew thee the bride,
the Lamb's wife.
Re:21:10:
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,
and shewed me that great city,
the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God,
Later
CoreIssue
05-05-2007, 03:42 PM
Hi Core,
[quote=CoreIssue;20729]The reason the Church is the last called and first rewarded is that Israel, the first called, is not complete until the end of the MK.
Simple as that.
M't:20:16:
So the last shall be first,
and the first last:
for many be called,
but few chosen.
So would line 1 be this verse?
The Church, as I already stated.
Plus, for---chosen is an add by the KJV authors, due to the tinkering of the RCC, who were trying to make this fit Replacement Theology.
Israel was called, shut down at the end of the 69th Week, Church created, Church taken and rewarded at the Rapture, and the 70th Week restores Israel.
So first called is the last completed. 2nd called is the first completed.
Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
They are all paid at the same time at the end of the day. When does the 11th hour end for the Church?
It already ended at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
This is about Israel and saints in the Trib. This is during the 70th Week of Daniel, which is upon Israel.
It does not occur at this moment.
The Trib saints are not resurrected until the Second Coming which is at the end of the Trib.
Come does not mean there. It means movement.
Israel would seem to be a complete Nation when Christ returns at the start of the thousand years. Ez:37 has a dozen verses that describe how they come to be called a whole House.
You are not reading. It says judging the dead, not the living.
Living Israel is dead to be judged, in totality, until the end of the MK. Thus only the Church is completely from the flesh.
Those who hate God, as well, are not completely dead to be judged until the end of the MK either.
How would they be exempt from this verse;
M't:22:30:
For in the resurrection they neither marry,
nor are given in marriage,
but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Because they are not dead yet to be resurrected. Simple as that.
The thousand years is different from the new Earth, these verses are about the new Earth,
Isa:60:19:
The sun shall be no more thy light by day;
neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee:
but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light,
and thy God thy glory.
Isa:60:20:
Thy sun shall no more go down;
neither shall thy moon withdraw itself:
for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light,
and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
Isa:60:21:
Thy people also shall be all righteous:
they shall inherit the land for ever,
the branch of my planting,
the work of my hands,
that I may be glorified.
Isa:60:22:
A little one shall become a thousand,
and a small one a strong nation:
I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
When John and Jesus are on this mountain, are they looking at a world full of life or on one that looks like it would after fire from God in Heaven has destroyed Satan at the end of his little season,
Nope. That is the MK.
There is no death and birth on the Ne Earth of Eternity.
There are two Hebrew words for New. One means remodeled or renewed. Here the world used in all the references is renewed.
The other word means totally new, from scratch. Not used here.
But definite, in the Greek, in Revelation it means totally new, not renewed.
Two different words with two different meanings.
Again, there is no birth, death, planting, harvesting, building or any such thing on the eternal New Earth.
Re:21:9:
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues,
and talked with me,
saying,
Come hither,
I will shew thee the bride,
the Lamb's wife.
Re:21:10:
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,
and shewed me that great city,
the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God,
Later
Yep. Onto the Eternal New Earth. Not the one of the MK.
But all this jumping around does not let you off the hook.
Israel was hired first, Church second. But the Church will be called from the fields, first, and paid off, first.
No way you can end Israel before the Church ends.
So how did you manage to get New Jerusalem (the only one that comes down from Heaven, about 1500 mi/side) on the Earth before Satan's 'little season' at the end of the thousand years?
To come to the feast of the Tabernacles once a year means the sun is not yet gone. being it is the sun that marks off the years.
There are 4 times that people are invited to 'work in the vineyard', not just the two you are referencing.
The RCC didn't influence the KJV, it was translated from original Hebrew and original Greek transcripts.
CoreIssue
05-05-2007, 05:39 PM
So how did you manage to get New Jerusalem (the only one that comes down from Heaven, about 1500 mi/side) on the Earth before Satan's 'little season' at the end of the thousand years?
I don't because it does not.
It comes down on the New Earth after the short season and the destruction of the earth.
The NJ would not fit on the earth in the MK and allow the neighbors by Israel to exist. It would cover some of them.
There is no Temple in the NJ. But there is a Temple in Jersalem, in the MK, in example.
To come to the feast of the Tabernacles once a year means the sun is not yet gone. being it is the sun that marks off the years.
That is correct.
This is not the NJ or the New Earth of Eternity is why.
There is no Temple in the NJ.
There are 4 times that people are invited to 'work in the vineyard', not just the two you are referencing.
Yep.
There are those before Israel, who are neither Gentiles or Jews. There is Israel of the OT. There is Church. There is Israel of the New Covenant from the 70th Week on.
That is 4 invitations. Church is the last asked and the first paid, since there are those of Israel and not of Israel or Church before and after the Church.
[quotg]The RCC didn't influence the KJV, it was translated from original Hebrew and original Greek transcripts.[/quote]
No. It was not. The KJV is not a translation, it is a revision.
And it was not translated from original anything. The RT didn't exist until about 1600 AD and was compiled from the MSS manuscripts, none of which existed prior to 300 AD. Some not until about 500 AD.
And those did come from Roman scribes.
The KJV editors had zero access to any other manuscripts. What was known then was locked away in Rome.
The majority of ancient manuscripts known of today were not found until the 20th century.
Hi Core,
I don't because it does not.
It comes down on the New Earth after the short season and the destruction of the earth.
The NJ would not fit on the earth in the MK and allow the neighbors by Israel to exist. It would cover some of them.
There is no Temple in the NJ. But there is a Temple in Jersalem, in the MK, in example.
Isa:60:19 & 20 both state that the sun and moon are gone, that only happens in the New Jerusalem, the one that has no temple, only a throne for God and the Lamb
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
That is correct.
This is not the NJ or the New Earth of Eternity is why.
There is no Temple in the NJ.
Since this is the eternal new Earth the having children is going to happen, that is how a little one can become a thousand as stated in Vs:60:22. The new Earth in Isa:65 and 66 is also about the eternal new Earth.
This verse is in a passage about the beginning of the thousand years. It states they 'will be made', it doesn't say they exist. It is about the inheritance that will start at the beginning of the thousand years and continue on into the new Earth.
Isa:66:20:
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses,
and in chariots,
and in litters,
and upon mules,
and upon swift beasts,
to my holy mountain Jerusalem,
saith the LORD,
as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa:66:21:
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,
saith the LORD.
Isa:66:22:
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
Yep.
There are those before Israel, who are neither Gentiles or Jews. There is Israel of the OT. There is Church. There is Israel of the New Covenant from the 70th Week on.
That is 4 invitations. Church is the last asked and the first paid, since there are those of Israel and not of Israel or Church before and after the Church.
The ones before Israel would be the first gathered then, and they don't quite fit as being 'complainers' about others being given the same reward as they receive.
The RCC didn't influence the KJV, it was translated from original Hebrew and original Greek transcripts.
No. It was not. The KJV is not a translation, it is a revision.
And it was not translated from original anything. The RT didn't exist until about 1600 AD and was compiled from the MSS manuscripts, none of which existed prior to 300 AD. Some not until about 500 AD.
And those did come from Roman scribes.
The KJV editors had zero access to any other manuscripts. What was known then was locked away in Rome.
The majority of ancient manuscripts known of today were not found until the 20th century.
Their preface would seem to disagree with you in what they translated from, they rejected the Greek translation of the OT and anything translated into Latin.
"If you ask what they had before them, truly it was the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the Greek of the New. These are the two golden pipes, or rather conduits, where-through the olive branches empty themselves into the gold. Saint Augustine calleth them precedent, or original tongues; "
"To be short, Origen, and the whole Church of God for certain hundred years, were of another mind: for they were so far from treading under foot, (much more from burning) the Translation of Aquila a Proselyte, that is, one that had turned Jew; of Symmachus, and Theodotion, both Ebionites, that is, most vile heretics, that they joined together with the Hebrew Original, and the Translation of the Seventy (as hath been before signified out of Epiphanius) and set them forth openly to be considered of and perused by all. But we weary the unlearned, who need not know so much, and trouble the learned, who know it already."
"S. Jerome maketh no mention of the Greek tongue, wherein yet he did excel, because he translated not the old Testament out of Greek, but out of Hebrew."
"Again they were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream, therefore the Greek being not altogether clear, the Latin derived from it must needs be muddy. This moved S. Jerome a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him, to undertake the translating of the Old Testament, out of the very fountain with that evidence of great learning, judgment, industry, and faithfulness, that he had forever bound the Church unto him, in a debt of special remembrance and thankfulness."
The RCC wasn't all that happy that their translations were rejected.
"Many men's mouths have been open a good while (and yet are not stopped) with speeches about the Translation so long in hand, or rather perusals of Translations made before: and ask what may be the reason, what the necessity of the employment: Hath the Church been deceived, say they, all this while? Hath her sweet bread been mingled with leaven, here silver with dross, her wine with water, her milk with lime? (Lacte gypsum male miscetur, saith S. Ireney,) [S. Iren. 3. lib. cap. 19.] We hoped that we had been in the right way, that we had the Oracles of God delivered unto us, and that though all the world had cause to be offended and to complain, yet that we had none. Hath the nurse holden out the breast, and nothing but wind in it? Hath the bread been delivered by the fathers of the Church, and the same proved to be lapidosus, as Seneca speaketh? What is it to handle the word of God deceitfully, if this be not? Thus certain brethren. Also the adversaries of Judah and Jerusalem, like Sanballat in Nehemiah, mock, as we hear, both the work and the workmen, saying; "What do these weak Jews, etc. will they make the stones whole again out of the heaps of dust which are burnt? "
CoreIssue
05-05-2007, 07:38 PM
Isa:60:19 & 20 both state that the sun and moon are gone, that only happens in the New Jerusalem, the one that has no temple, only a throne for God and the Lamb
That is not correct. It happens before the Second Coming and MK during the Trib.
Read the rest of the chapter. It says Gentiles will rebuild the walls and such of Jerusalem, that ships will haul Jews back to Israel and more.
It does not say the sun or moon will not shine on the rest of world. It is talking only about Israel.
It says other nations will come to seek the light Israel has. Sure not the Eternal New earth.
This is the MK, not the eternal New Earth.
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
You are quoting verses stated as after the Short Time, which is after the MK, which is after the Second Coming, which is after the Trib.
Read Revelation in the order stated.
That is correct.
This is not the NJ or the New Earth of Eternity is why.
There is no Temple in the NJ.
Since this is the eternal new Earth the having children is going to happen, that is how a little one can become a thousand as stated in Vs:60:22. The new Earth in Isa:65 and 66 is also about the eternal new Earth.
You are not paying attention.
The New Earth stated in Isaiah is not using the Hebrew word for brand new, but recondtioned.
There most assuredly is not going to be birth on the New Earth of Eternity.
This verse is in a passage about the beginning of the thousand years. It states they 'will be made', it doesn't say they exist. It is about the inheritance that will start at the beginning of the thousand years and continue on into the new Earth.
Isa:66:20:
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses,
and in chariots,
and in litters,
and upon mules,
and upon swift beasts,
to my holy mountain Jerusalem,
saith the LORD,
as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Nope. Gentiles are not going to bring Israel anything on the New Earth.
Isa:66:21:
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,
saith the LORD.
Which you see in the Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. Which is not the New Earth.
Isa:66:22:
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
Again, you are not paying attention.
The word new here is the Hebrew word for reconditioned. Which is not the same meaning as the Hebrew word for brand new. Or the Greek word used in Revelation which means brand new.
You are trying to equate two different issues as the same.
There is no Temple on the New Earth, no death, no birth or any such thing.
Yep.
There are those before Israel, who are neither Gentiles or Jews. There is Israel of the OT. There is Church. There is Israel of the New Covenant from the 70th Week on.
That is 4 invitations. Church is the last asked and the first paid, since there are those of Israel and not of Israel or Church before and after the Church.
The ones before Israel would be the first gathered then, and they don't quite fit as being 'complainers' about others being given the same reward as they receive.
No they wouldn't! You just made the first called the first paid.
It says the last called are the first paid.
The RCC didn't influence the KJV, it was translated from original Hebrew and original Greek transcripts.
No. It was not. The KJV is not a translation, it is a revision.
And it was not translated from original anything. The RT didn't exist until about 1600 AD and was compiled from the MSS manuscripts, none of which existed prior to 300 AD. Some not until about 500 AD.
And those did come from Roman scribes.
The KJV editors had zero access to any other manuscripts. What was known then was locked away in Rome.
The majority of ancient manuscripts known of today were not found until the 20th century.
Their preface would seem to disagree with you in what they translated from, they rejected the Greek translation of the OT and anything translated into Latin.
You need to study history.
They didn't translate from any of it. The used older Bibles, the MSS and other documents as check and reference documents.
They did not translate from scratch. Nor did they have any manuscripts other than what Rome didn't control.
Most assuredly there were document in Hebrew and Greek out there. But not the oldest ones. Nope.
"If you ask what they had before them, truly it was the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the Greek of the New. These are the two golden pipes, or rather conduits, where-through the olive branches empty themselves into the gold. Saint Augustine calleth them precedent, or original tongues; "
Which says nothing of the age of what the KJV authors had before them.
"To be short, Origen, and the whole Church of God for certain hundred years, were of another mind: for they were so far from treading under foot, (much more from burning) the Translation of Aquila a Proselyte, that is, one that had turned Jew; of Symmachus, and Theodotion, both Ebionites, that is, most vile heretics, that they joined together with the Hebrew Original, and the Translation of the Seventy (as hath been before signified out of Epiphanius) and set them forth openly to be considered of and perused by all. But we weary the unlearned, who need not know so much, and trouble the learned, who know it already."
Origin lived around 240. Using his translation, which had huge problems, is a far cry from using the old manuscripts.
"S. Jerome maketh no mention of the Greek tongue, wherein yet he did excel, because he translated not the old Testament out of Greek, but out of Hebrew."
340 AD and the author of the Vulgate. Truly version to be rejected.
"Again they were not out of the Hebrew fountain (we speak of the Latin Translations of the Old Testament) but out of the Greek stream, therefore the Greek being not altogether clear, the Latin derived from it must needs be muddy. This moved S. Jerome a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him, to undertake the translating of the Old Testament, out of the very fountain with that evidence of great learning, judgment, industry, and faithfulness, that he had forever bound the Church unto him, in a debt of special remembrance and thankfulness."
Again, I rejct the Vulgate.
The RCC wasn't all that happy that their translations were rejected.
Rome rejected the Vulgate? Since when?
It is still used by them today.
"Many men's mouths have been open a good while (and yet are not stopped) with speeches about the Translation so long in hand, or rather perusals of Translations made before: and ask what may be the reason, what the necessity of the employment: Hath the Church been deceived, say they, all this while? Hath her sweet bread been mingled with leaven, here silver with dross, her wine with water, her milk with lime? (Lacte gypsum male miscetur, saith S. Ireney,) [S. Iren. 3. lib. cap. 19.] We hoped that we had been in the right way, that we had the Oracles of God delivered unto us, and that though all the world had cause to be offended and to complain, yet that we had none. Hath the nurse holden out the breast, and nothing but wind in it? Hath the bread been delivered by the fathers of the Church, and the same proved to be lapidosus, as Seneca speaketh? What is it to handle the word of God deceitfully, if this be not? Thus certain brethren. Also the adversaries of Judah and Jerusalem, like Sanballat in Nehemiah, mock, as we hear, both the work and the workmen, saying; "What do these weak Jews, etc. will they make the stones whole again out of the heaps of dust which are burnt? "
Kinda got some claims wrong, didn't they.
kay-gee
05-05-2007, 09:26 PM
So, do you mean to tell me that if there is any shread of biblical evidence for non-pre-mill, it is Because the KJV authors conspired to tinker with it? Boy, you are becoming desparate in your zeal for your pre-mill theories!.......all the best.........
CoreIssue
05-05-2007, 09:36 PM
So, do you mean to tell me that if there is any shread of biblical evidence for non-pre-mill, it is Because the KJV authors conspired to tinker with it? Boy, you are becoming desparate in your zeal for your pre-mill theories!.......all the best.........
No, I am telling you there is no evidence for Amillennialism in any Bible version at all.
Other doctrines at least can show a verse or two that coukl possibly support them, until other verses are brought in.
Again, until you actually know what the doctrines teach and WHY, you really are speaking from personal feeling and desires, not knowledge.
Isa:60:19 & 20 both state that the sun and moon are gone, that only happens in the New Jerusalem, the one that has no temple, only a throne for God and the Lamb
That is not correct. It happens before the Second Coming and MK during the Trib.
Read the rest of the chapter. It says Gentiles will rebuild the walls and such of Jerusalem, that ships will haul Jews back to Israel and more.
It does not say the sun or moon will not shine on the rest of world. It is talking only about Israel.
It says other nations will come to seek the light Israel has. Sure not the Eternal New earth.
This is the MK, not the eternal New Earth.
You are influenced by other parts of what you believe. Like once the NJ decends from Heaven that the whole population is static (and I would assume you also see them staying in the city for eternity). The static population of the thousand years does stay in NJ, Servants to the Lamb and as Priests and Kings to God and the Lamb. The ones who go outside NJ come from the ranks of the rest. They are the ones who build things and bring things to NJ. The ones inside NJ play host to those that come for the feasts, same as Israel plays host to the remnant of the Nations that came once a year for the feast of the Tabernacles during the thousand years.
Why would you thing that names used in Scripture cannot be used for names of places in the new Earth?
At Christ's second coming everything in the sea is killed, pretty much all the beasts of the fields, and all the fowl.
Re:16:3:
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea;
and it became as the blood of a dead man:
and every living soul died in the sea.
The blood of a dead man is not liquid, it is solid enough to walk on.
Zep:1:3:
I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the fowls of the heaven,
and the fishes of the sea,
and the stumblingblocks with the wicked;
and I will cut off man from off the land,
saith the LORD.
The Dead Sea is the first place that the living waters will reach so there will be fish there but I haven't found anything that says the rest of the worlds oceans are healed even though the living water does seem to head in that direction also. Ezekiel 47.
Zec:14:8:
And it shall be in that day,
that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem;
half of them toward the former sea,
and half of them toward the hinder sea:
in summer and in winter shall it be.
The Gentiles are not a complete people until after the GWT.
Isa:60:2:
For,
behold,
the darkness shall cover the earth,
and gross darkness the people:
but the LORD shall arise upon thee,
and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Isa:60:3:
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
It is 'the rest' who are smote when Christ returns. Hebrews 12 explains how 'the rest' are treated at Judgment Day, chastised and then the past is forgotten. God confirms that in Re:21.
Isa:60:10:
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls,
and their kings shall minister unto thee:
for in my wrath I smote thee,
but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
Isa:60:11:
Therefore thy gates shall be open continually;
they shall not be shut day nor night;
that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles,
and that their kings may be brought.
Isa:60:12:
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish;
yea,
those nations shall be utterly wasted.
In the thousand years withholding rain is the punishment.
Re:21:3:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Re:21:5:
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
You are not paying attention.
The New Earth stated in Isaiah is not using the Hebrew word for brand new, but recondtioned.
There most assuredly is not going to be birth on the New Earth of Eternity.
I am paying attention, but Scripture carries more weigh with me than you do.
The new Earth is barren when NJ comes down, it doesn't stay that way. Your version has everybody staying inside NJ for eternity, NJ is the center point of the new Earth that is where the numbers of man will increase, forever.
Which you see in the Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. Which is not the New Earth.
The word new here is the Hebrew word for reconditioned. Which is not the same meaning as the Hebrew word for brand new. Or the Greek word used in Revelation which means brand new.
You are trying to equate two different issues as the same.
There is no Temple on the New Earth, no death, no birth or any such thing.
Isa:66:24:
And they shall go forth,
and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
for their worm shall not die,
neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The thousand years, Vs:22 isn't a description of the new Earth existing at the same time, they are words that tell of a time when there will be a new Earth and a new Heaven, the ones serving for the thousand years will also be serving in NJ.
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
Yep.
There are those before Israel, who are neither Gentiles or Jews. There is Israel of the OT. There is Church. There is Israel of the New Covenant from the 70th Week on.
That is 4 invitations. Church is the last asked and the first paid, since there are those of Israel and not of Israel or Church before and after the Church.
The ones before Israel would be the first gathered then, and they don't quite fit as being 'complainers' about others being given the same reward as they receive.
No they wouldn't! You just made the first called the first paid.
It says the last called are the first paid.[/QUOTE]
Gathered to work in the field, the first ones hired. It is only the first hired who complain about the reward the 11th hour workers get.
Rome rejected the Vulgate? Since when?
It is still used by them today.
I didn't say Rome rejected then, I said the translators of the KJV rejected them.
That they still use then today might explain more than a few things
I don't know where this came from "Again, I rejct the Vulgate." it wasn't in my original post.
CoreIssue
05-05-2007, 11:30 PM
You are influenced by other parts of what you believe.
No. I am reading more than a verse or two out of the whole passage.
You grab verses here and there and assign meanings that do not take the whole passage into consideration.
If the verse fits something you think somewhere else talks about, you attempt to attach it to the other passage instead of keeping in the context written.
Like once the NJ decends from Heaven that the whole population is static (and I would assume you also see them staying in the city for eternity). The static population of the thousand years does stay in NJ, Servants to the Lamb and as Priests and Kings to God and the Lamb. The ones who go outside NJ come from the ranks of the rest. They are the ones who build things and bring things to NJ. The ones inside NJ play host to those that come for the feasts, same as Israel plays host to the remnant of the Nations that came once a year for the feast of the Tabernacles during the thousand years.
Wow. A vivid imagination.
Not said anywhere in the Bible.
Why would you thing that names used in Scripture cannot be used for names of places in the new Earth?
You are not paying attention to what I said when you say things like that. You are screening everything through what you believe.
Go back and read what I said on the word meanings of the different words used for 'new.'
At Christ's second coming everything in the sea is killed, pretty much all the beasts of the fields, and all the fowl.
One sea, not all seas.
The blood of a dead man is not liquid, it is solid enough to walk on.
Never said.
The Dead Sea is the first place that the living waters will reach so there will be fish there but I haven't found anything that says the rest of the worlds oceans are healed even though the living water does seem to head in that direction also. Ezekiel 47.
Never said all the oceans die.
The Gentiles are not a complete people until after the GWT.
As a covenant people, they are at the Rapture.
It is 'the rest' who are smote when Christ returns. Hebrews 12 explains how 'the rest' are treated at Judgment Day, chastised and then the past is forgotten. God confirms that in
Nope.
In the thousand years withholding rain is the punishment.
Yep.
Re:21:3:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Re:21:5:
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
That is eternity, not the MK.
You are not paying attention.
The New Earth stated in Isaiah is not using the Hebrew word for brand new, but recondtioned.
There most assuredly is not going to be birth on the New Earth of Eternity.
I am paying attention, but Scripture carries more weigh with me than you do.
Yes. And you have to use the word definition given. Not the one you want.
The new Earth is barren when NJ comes down, it doesn't stay that way. Your version has everybody staying inside NJ for eternity, NJ is the center point of the new Earth that is where the numbers of man will increase, forever.
Yea. You have embraced the Idealism thinking.
I don't and the Bible doesn't back it.
Which you see in the Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. Which is not the New Earth.
The word new here is the Hebrew word for reconditioned. Which is not the same meaning as the Hebrew word for brand new. Or the Greek word used in Revelation which means brand new.
You are trying to equate two different issues as the same.
There is no Temple on the New Earth, no death, no birth or any such thing.
Isa:66:24:
And they shall go forth,
and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
for their worm shall not die,
neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
The thousand years, Vs:22 isn't a description of the new Earth existing at the same time, they are words that tell of a time when there will be a new Earth and a new Heaven, the ones serving for the thousand years will also be serving in NJ.
Nope.
No Temple in the NJ but a Temple in the MK Jerusalem.
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
Eternity, not the MK.
Yep.
There are those before Israel, who are neither Gentiles or Jews. There is Israel of the OT. There is Church. There is Israel of the New Covenant from the 70th Week on.
That is 4 invitations. Church is the last asked and the first paid, since there are those of Israel and not of Israel or Church before and after the Church.
The ones before Israel would be the first gathered then, and they don't quite fit as being 'complainers' about others being given the same reward as they receive.
No they wouldn't! You just made the first called the first paid.
It says the last called are the first paid.
Gathered to work in the field, the first ones hired. It is only the first hired who complain about the reward the 11th hour workers get.
[/QUOTE]
But the last hired are paid first.
Rome rejected the Vulgate? Since when?
It is still used by them today.
I didn't say Rome rejected then, I said the translators of the KJV rejected them.
That they still use then today might explain more than a few things
I don't know where this came from "Again, I rejct the Vulgate." it wasn't in my original post.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the used it as reference material.
Hi Core,
No. I am reading more than a verse or two out of the whole passage.
You grab verses here and there and assign meanings that do not take the whole passage into consideration.
If the verse fits something you think somewhere else talks about, you attempt to attach it to the other passage instead of keeping in the context written.
Fortunately this is one of those subjects where certain words are mentioned very rarely. Twice in the OT and twice in the NT.
Of the two times mentioned in the OT Isa:65:17 is a reference to the NE after Judgment Day and the words after that verse are about the way things will be for 'some people'. The 16 verses previous to that verse is about some people before the new Earth is physically revealed.
The very first verses tells us who it is that is being addressed, it is some people God is not very pleased with,
Isa:65:1:
I am sought of them that asked not for me;
I am found of them that sought me not:
I said,
Behold me,
behold me,
unto a nation that was not called by my name.
Isa:65:2:
I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people,
which walketh in a way that was not good,
after their own thoughts;
Isa:65:3:
A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;
that sacrificeth in gardens,
and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
Isa:65:4:
Which remain among the graves,
and lodge in the monuments,
which eat swine's flesh,
and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Isa:65:5:
Which say,
Stand by thyself,
come not near to me;
for I am holier than thou.
These are a smoke in my nose,
a fire that burneth all the day.
Isa:65:6:
Behold,
it is written before me:
I will not keep silence,
but will recompense,
even recompense into their bosom,
The same people are also the subject of these words and the fate that awaits them at the time of Christ's return,
Isa:65:11:
But ye are they that forsake the LORD,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
By the beginning of the thousand years these are all dead and either in the grave or in hell (depending on just how 'bad' they were. Eze:32:27: being an example. This is in contrast to what other people experience at that time, those being all who are left alive at the beginning of the thousand years or have been resurrected back to life, either way they are equal, both are immortal and all come under the term 'my servants', these verses cover the way things will be for the whole thousand years.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
You may not like the idea that death is the payment for sin but that doesn't make it any less a fact. This next verse is talking about the sins of those who perished by the sword,
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Just like after Israel had paid for her shortcomings those things are no longer remembered. Job also states that death results in a persons sins being 'put away in a bag',
Job:14:14:
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Job:14:15:
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job:14:16:
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
Job:14:17:
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
This next verse is a prophecy which is also stated in Revelation,
Isa:65:19:
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and joy in my people:
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,
nor the voice of crying.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
The things that come after Vs:65:19 happen outside new Jerusalem in the new Earth, people won't be doing this inside NJ,
Isa:65:21:
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
Isa:65:22:
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa:65:23:
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.
Isa:65:25:
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock:
and dust shall be the serpent's meat.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain,
saith the LORD.
The reference to a new Earth in the next chapter is about a future event, it is not in existence when those events unfold.
Like once the NJ decends from Heaven that the whole population is static (and I would assume you also see them staying in the city for eternity). The static population of the thousand years does stay in NJ, Servants to the Lamb and as Priests and Kings to God and the Lamb. The ones who go outside NJ come from the ranks of the rest. They are the ones who build things and bring things to NJ. The ones inside NJ play host to those that come for the feasts, same as Israel plays host to the remnant of the Nations that came once a year for the feast of the Tabernacles during the thousand years.
Wow. A vivid imagination.
Not said anywhere in the Bible.
Scripture is very vivid.
The 144,000 are said to do this,
Re:14:4:
These are they which were not defiled with women;
for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men,
being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Unless Christ leaves NJ these would stay in the city with Him. There is no indication He does leave but if He does these will be with Him. Isa:65:24: indicates Christ will hear everybody no matter where they are.
The ones in this verse would seem to qualify as being 'my servants' and after the thousand years they remain His servants and they would seem to be inside the city with God and the Lamb.
Re:20:6:
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re:22:3:
And there shall be no more curse:
but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;
and his servants shall serve him:
These ones are not outside NJ building houses or planting things to eat, there are two different groups below
Isa:49:10:
They shall not hunger nor thirst;
neither shall the heat nor sun smite them:
for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them,
even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Isa:65:21:
And they shall build houses,
and inhabit them;
and they shall plant vineyards,
and eat the fruit of them.
Isa:65:22:
They shall not build,
and another inhabit;
they shall not plant,
and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of my people,
and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Why would you thing that names used in Scripture cannot be used for names of places in the new Earth?
You are not paying attention to what I said when you say things like that. You are screening everything through what you believe.
Go back and read what I said on the word meanings of the different words used for 'new.'
Not according to this, it means new, in both Isaiah 65 & 66
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa&chapter=65&verse=17&word=02319&show_strongs=no&page=2
Job 29:20 is the 1 verse where that same word means fresh
At Christ's second coming everything in the sea is killed, pretty much all the beasts of the fields, and all the fowl.
One sea, not all seas.
God doesn't use our maps, LOL All Seas (not landlocked like in Israel) and Oceans on our maps are connected BTW, one very big Sea.
Zec:9:10:
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim,
and the horse from Jerusalem,
and the battle bow shall be cut off:
and he shall speak peace unto the heathen:
and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea,
and from river even to the ends of the earth.
Ho:4:3:
Therefore shall the land mourn,
and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish,
with the beasts of the field,
and with the fowls of heaven;
yea,
the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.
The blood of a dead man is not liquid, it is solid enough to walk on.
Never said.
Never not said.
The Dead Sea is the first place that the living waters will reach so there will be fish there but I haven't found anything that says the rest of the worlds oceans are healed even though the living water does seem to head in that direction also. Ezekiel 47.
Never said all the oceans die.
Do you believe Christ is going to claim the whole Earth (and everything in it) as His or just a very small portion?
The Gentiles are not a complete people until after the GWT.
As a covenant people, they are at the Rapture.
There is only Gentile and Israel. Pre-trib is not the end of salvation, the remnant of the Nations that come to the feast of the Tabernacles are Gentiles.
[QUOTE]
It is 'the rest' who are smote when Christ returns. Hebrews 12 explains how 'the rest' are treated at Judgment Day, chastised and then the past is forgotten. God confirms that in
Nope.
Are you saying Hebrews 12 isn't what happens at Judgment Day?
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Yes. And you have to use the word definition given. Not the one you want.
I did, it is in the link provided above
Yea. You have embraced the Idealism thinking.
What I have embraced is letting Scripture define what is being said, nothing more, nothing less.
But the last hired are paid first.
If God is willing to 'forgive and forget' the sins of 'the rest', why are you so against it, it doesn't alter you position with God any. It even keeps you in NJ rather than being outside doing what is stated will be done. Building and bringing things to NJ.
Wood being one of the items. Logging doesn't seem to be an activity going on once Satan is in the pit for the thousand years.
Isa:14:7:
The whole earth is at rest,
and is quiet:
they break forth into singing.
Isa:14:8:
Yea,
the fir trees rejoice at thee,
and the cedars of Lebanon,
saying,
Since thou art laid down,
no feller is come up against us.
Later
CoreIssue
05-06-2007, 01:42 PM
Hi MHz,
You are rerunning things we have gone over many times. No reason to redo them.
You seem to believe in the Amill or Idealism positon this earth is not destroyed completely, but burnt clean and restored.
And the Idealism position birth, death and such never end. They just keep moving forward with God setting different scenarios for life to go on.
I totaly reject that.
Rev an 2 Peter 3 do not say burnt clean. They say this earth is totally removed, destroyed, gone. Then a brand New Earth, that does not look like this one, at all, is created.
I believe that the earth of Gen 1:1 is what the New Earth will look like.
That earth was corrupted, but will be restored.
My opinion and belief. Not pushing it, just giving you my perspective.
Isaiah 65-66 is about Israel, not all people or nations. It says nation. I identifieds Jacob, Jerusalem and so on as the people and place referenced.
After the White Throne there will be no more birth or death. If there were there would have to be more White Throne Judgements afterwards.
If there were more birth and death, there would be more sin, as shown in talking about one dyinig at 100 being cursed and an child still.
Sin means there would be pain, tears and sorrow. But there is no such thing on the New Earth.
There is a Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. There is none in the NJ.
You are trying to have both exist at the same time. They don't.
The 144,000 are not just saints, as you believe. They are of the 12 Tribes of Israel and are in the Trib and MK, on this earth, not dead or resurrected.
The New Earth of Isaiah means restored, not brand new.
The New Earth of 2 Peter 3 and Rev. means brand new, not restored.
Christ is in the Temple in Jerusalem during the MK. He is on the throne of God with no Temple present on the New Earth.
You have so many irresolvable contradictions in what you are saying.
Yes, I know you think you have them ironed out. But you don't.
Saying this and that are realities before the 1,000 years doesn't fly. That has you putting that idealic situation in Israel during the Trib when 2/3 of Israel dies and the AC and Satan are there.
Saying the NJ is on the earth with the other realities outside the gates does not fly. Because it says when the NJ comes down there is no more Temple, because God dwells with man.
Yet, you have a temple outside the NJ in the old Jerusalem, at the same time.
The NJ cannot be on the earth at the same time the Bible says Egypt and Lebanon will be there, going to the Temple. It would cover those nations.
Contradiction after contradiction.
Your 'seems like', 'could be' and 'must mean' types answers are proof of nothing.
They are built on the premise you are right about other things and thus this must be the case.
The reality is you are wrong about those other things, thus they cannot be the case.
Really, you deny the Triune Godhead. You add works to salvation. You deny Christ is God incarnate. And more.
We are so far apart. So very far apart.
I am literal, you are not. Thus not being literal, you cannot begin to offer proof what you say is true. Thus the 'seems' and 'must be' type statements.
Not trying to offend. But that is what this is boiling down to.
There are those who come at these issues in similar ways as to how you do. None of you come close to agreeing with each other.
Hi Core,
You are rerunning things we have gone over many times. No reason to redo them.
Gosh that would take a lot of time. I don't want to do that anymore than you do. If this short discussion brings thing up to date then it serves a purpose.
You seem to believe in the Amill or Idealism positon this earth is not destroyed completely, but burnt clean and restored.
The Earth, this present Earth, is voided of all life at the end of Satan's 'little season'. Fire from God in Heaven will do that, you know the verse I use that says that,
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
The people who are alive for the thousand years don't suffer that, they are the ones looking 'down'. These are looking towards the 3rd Heaven, the place where the GWT is, even the Angels go to the 3rd Heaven when their home is removed.
Does God make the new Earth the same size as this one? It doesn't say, I don't see that there would be any rule that would mean it has to be the same size.
And the Idealism position birth, death and such never end. They just keep moving forward with God setting different scenarios for life to go on.
What is the whole purpose of mankind being made male and female, it is to allow for an increase in numbers. To halt that process for everybody would leave nothing new (as in babies) for eternity. How does a little one become a thousand or a great Nation if not through an increase in their children? This can't happen during a mere thousand years but it certainly can easily be done when you have eternity before them, if that means being able to travel where we cannot travel today. There are only so many Nations during the thousand years, no new ones come into being.
Take these verse, where are these worlds and will man ever 'visit and inhabit them'?
Heb:1:2:
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb:11:3:
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
If room to grow is an issue with there being new people after Judgment Day, that would seem to solve it. Our new Earth could easily be the 'old heaven'.
I totaly reject that.
That's fine, but I think God likes people and I also think He likes to see His creations flourish in numbers, a large number of beasts of the field are more pleasing to His eye than a tiny number. Many broad pastures are more pleasing than a small finite number.
Rev an 2 Peter 3 do not say burnt clean. They say this earth is totally removed, destroyed, gone. Then a brand New Earth, that does not look like this one, at all, is created.
Does it look any different than Genesis 2 before there was a man to till the ground (and I don't mean some will spend eternity walking behind a plow)
I believe that the earth of Gen 1:1 is what the New Earth will look like.
Not unlike what Israel will look like at the end of the thousand years.
That earth was corrupted, but will be restored.
The two people were corrupted, thanks to you know who.
My opinion and belief. Not pushing it, just giving you my perspective.
You have to go where Scripture leads you, I'm not doing anything different.
Isaiah 65-66 is about Israel, not all people or nations. It says nation. I identifieds Jacob, Jerusalem and so on as the people and place referenced.
Chapter 66 yes, but the reference to the new Earth is still a 'will be' not 'it is now'. I already gave you my summation of ch:65.
After the White Throne there will be no more birth or death. If there were there would have to be more White Throne Judgements afterwards.
Why people won't fall into sin again, we will have God and the Lamb (who know the thoughts of those inside the city and outside the city), there will also be the people who were with Christ for the thousand years who will be perfect in their role as Priests and Kings.
If there were more birth and death, there would be more sin, as shown in talking about one dyinig at 100 being cursed and an child still.
An infant will be until the age of 20yrs. From 20 to the age of 100 they will be considered a child, it is a persons childhood that dies at the age of 100, not the person. At the age of 120yrs every person is judged, at that time you either go onto eternal life (and with the support in place that will be everybody). A sinner of 100 will be cast into the Lake (counted from 20yrs to 120yrs). With perfect support nobody will suffer the verse below,
Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
Sin means there would be pain, tears and sorrow. But there is no such thing on the New Earth.
You are assuming that because they are Laws somebody is going to break them. That would go against what is written on the heart of everybody alive. Just like you assume there will be rampant sin during the thousand years.
There is a Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. There is none in the NJ.
Yep
You are trying to have both exist at the same time. They don't.
No I'm not
The 144,000 are not just saints, as you believe. They are of the 12 Tribes of Israel and are in the Trib and MK, on this earth, not dead or resurrected.\
Never said any harm came to them, that doesn't mean that same protection is extended to the rest of Israel though, If prophecy says they will all perish by the sword (not Christ's sword, Satan's armies of men, as per the sword of the Nations as stated in Romans) then that is going to happen. Then the whole house is brought back to life.
The New Earth of Isaiah means restored, not brand new.
There are other chapters that deal with how well Israel does in the thousand years, you just can't allow for any of 'the rest' being saved and being alive in the one new Earth.
The New Earth of 2 Peter 3 and Rev. means brand new, not restored.
Okay, but rather than change God's words to fit your preconcieved idea why not just go with every reference as being the very same thing.
Christ is in the Temple in Jerusalem during the MK. He is on the throne of God with no Temple present on the New Earth.
Yep
You have so many irresolvable contradictions in what you are saying.
That is only when you try to mesh you belief into what I'm saying.
Yes, I know you think you have them ironed out. But you don't.
You aren't the final authority.
Saying this and that are realities before the 1,000 years doesn't fly. That has you putting that idealic situation in Israel during the Trib when 2/3 of Israel dies and the AC and Satan are there.
The 1/3 and the 2/3 of Zec:13 is still the same subject in the next chapter, the remnant of the Nations is the 1/3, the 2/3 are who Christ kills at His return. The subject doesn't change when the chapter changes. LTanners mentioned there was a lack of time reference to Ch:14 in one of the Amill threads, the time reference is at the end of Ch:13.
Is God going to save everybody He calls 'my people' or just 1/3. All means all, if you have to redefine that word to make a theory work then something is out of place. If all means all then 1/3 has to apply to somebody else. A very good clue is when you turn the page and Gentiles are being killed in such high numbers that only a 'few of the total' are left.
Saying the NJ is on the earth with the other realities outside the gates does not fly. Because it says when the NJ comes down there is no more Temple, because God dwells with man.
Yes, that is when God himself is with man, it is Christ with man for the thousand years.
Yet, you have a temple outside the NJ in the old Jerusalem, at the same time.
I assure you, I have the temple that Christ builds as being in the thousand years and that is it.
The NJ cannot be on the earth at the same time the Bible says Egypt and Lebanon will be there, going to the Temple. It would cover those nations.
Obviously, does that mean that the new Earth has the same names of places in just the same place?
Contradiction after contradiction.
Why do you think I always post a verse to support what I say? The contradiction comes from an attempt to blend what I say with what you believe to be so.
Your 'seems like', 'could be' and 'must mean' types answers are proof of nothing.
I only use that kind of language with people that are in disagreement with me, if you think that indicates I have any doubts you're wrong.
They are built on the premise you are right about other things and thus this must be the case.
I didn't go out looking for a certain outcome.
The reality is you are wrong about those other things, thus they cannot be the case.
Well Core, I think God cares about what He creates, time and space certainly aren't factors on how many people are alive for the new Earth.
Really, you deny the Triune Godhead. You add works to salvation. You deny Christ is God incarnate. And more.
Let me guess, I'm now a 'not saved' person.
We are so far apart. So very far apart.
I see the new Earth as being busier for people than you do, and never ending progression of the growth of what began in Eden. In your view there is a limit to this, once the new Earth is all planted and everybody has built their house, then what, being as that has not taken up very much of eternity.
I am literal, you are not. Thus not being literal, you cannot begin to offer proof what you say is true. Thus the 'seems' and 'must be' type statements.
You never answered my question about Ezekiel 37, is that a description of people being brought back from a physical death or is it a spiritual thing, one is literal the other is not. I will stay with it being literal, meaning a physical resurrection that includes everybody ever born into those houses. Hard to reconcile the 1/3 being Israel in Zec:13 if the whole house is alive moments after Christ kills 2/3's of them. It is also hard not to understand the Church could be in that number being as 1/3 would be several billion.
Would your reaction be any different if I used 'consider this' or some other such words?
Not trying to offend. But that is what this is boiling down to.
I'm not offended.
There are those who come at these issues in similar ways as to how you do. None of you come close to agreeing with each other.
Any recent threads?
Later
CoreIssue
05-06-2007, 10:24 PM
You seem to believe in the Amill or Idealism positon this earth is not destroyed completely, but burnt clean and restored.
The Earth, this present Earth, is voided of all life at the end of Satan's 'little season'. Fire from God in Heaven will do that, you know the verse I use that says that,
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Which says the earth disappears in a cloud of smoke. Gone completely.
Which is verified by 2 Pet 3 and Revelation.
The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203&version=31#fen-NIV-30517a)]
Not everything ON the earth, but everything IN the earth.
Revelation 20
Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
Gone. No where for them. Not to be found.
Not on the earth, but the stars and sky (heavens} and all on and in the earth meaning the earth itself, gone.
Then after, a New Heavens and New Earth are created. New, the Greek word meaning brand new, not old and reconditioned, as in Isaiah 66.
It does not say life is wiped from the earth. It says the earth and heavens are complete gone, destroyed, go up in a puff of smoke, do not exist anymore.
The people who are alive for the thousand years don't suffer that, they are the ones looking 'down'.
Nowhere to be found in the Bible.
These are looking towards the 3rd Heaven, the place where the GWT is, even the Angels go to the 3rd Heaven when their home is removed.
Never said in the Bible.
Does God make the new Earth the same size as this one? It doesn't say, I don't see that there would be any rule that would mean it has to be the same size.
You have nothing to base that statement on. It is a pure opinion.
And the Idealism position birth, death and such never end. They just keep moving forward with God setting different scenarios for life to go on.
What is the whole purpose of mankind being made male and female, it is to allow for an increase in numbers. To halt that process for everybody would leave nothing new (as in babies) for eternity.
Which is exactly what happens. Neither male nor female.
Again, you theorize without anyting Biblical to back you.
How does a little one become a thousand or a great Nation if not through an increase in their children? This can't happen during a mere thousand years but it certainly can easily be done when you have eternity before them, if that means being able to travel where we cannot travel today. There are only so many Nations during the thousand years, no new ones come into being.
Children are in the MK, not in Eternity.
Take these verse, where are these worlds and will man ever 'visit and inhabit them'?
Heb:1:2:
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb:11:3:
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
I believe the other worlds were the dominions of angels, before the Fall.
So, if every angel has his own world, that would speak for a lot of worlds, would it not?
After all, it says the NJ is for Israel and Church, not angels.
If room to grow is an issue with there being new people after Judgment Day, that would seem to solve it. Our new Earth could easily be the 'old heaven'.
Not even a Biblical concept. It is your imaganation talking about Man growing in numbers for Eternity, not the Bible.
I totaly reject that.
That's fine, but I think God likes people and I also think He likes to see His creations flourish in numbers, a large number of beasts of the field are more pleasing to His eye than a tiny number. Many broad pastures are more pleasing than a small finite number.
And the simple disproof to that thinking is angels.
Created as an exact number. Finite. Never growing.
So much for saying God wants ever expanding numbers.
Rev an 2 Peter 3 do not say burnt clean. They say this earth is totally removed, destroyed, gone. Then a brand New Earth, that does not look like this one, at all, is created.
Does it look any different than Genesis 2 before there was a man to till the ground (and I don't mean some will spend eternity walking behind a plow)
I said like Genesis 1:1 before corrupted.
So, of course it looks different then Gen 2.
I believe that the earth of Gen 1:1 is what the New Earth will look like.
Not unlike what Israel will look like at the end of the thousand years.
Very unlike, as in gone versus corrupted.
That earth was corrupted, but will be restored.
The two people were corrupted, thanks to you know who.
The earth was corrupeted before they were created. Gen 1:1-2 was BEFORE Adam was created.
My opinion and belief. Not pushing it, just giving you my perspective.
You have to go where Scripture leads you, I'm not doing anything different.
Oh, you are doing very differently.
Isaiah 65-66 is about Israel, not all people or nations. It says nation. I identifieds Jacob, Jerusalem and so on as the people and place referenced.
Chapter 66 yes, but the reference to the new Earth is still a 'will be' not 'it is now'. I already gave you my summation of ch:65.
Yep. Will be. But not the New Earth John speaks of.
After the White Throne there will be no more birth or death. If there were there would have to be more White Throne Judgements afterwards.
Why people won't fall into sin again, we will have God and the Lamb (who know the thoughts of those inside the city and outside the city), there will also be the people who were with Christ for the thousand years who will be perfect in their role as Priests and Kings.
Satan and the angels who fell were with God and still sinned.
Those born will still have sin natures.
There will be those who were with Christ in the MK that will march with Satan in the Short Time.
No. If there is on-going birth and death, there will be sin. Physical death comes from sin nature.
Perfect flesh humans would not age and die.
If there were more birth and death, there would be more sin, as shown in talking about one dyinig at 100 being cursed and an child still.
An infant will be until the age of 20yrs. From 20 to the age of 100 they will be considered a child, it is a persons childhood that dies at the age of 100, not the person.
Does not say that. It says if the die at that age. Not that childhood dies at that age.
You refuse to read literally. Just won't work for you thinking.
At the age of 120yrs every person is judged, at that time you either go onto eternal life (and with the support in place that will be everybody).
Never said in the Bible.
You just keep inventing things.
A sinner of 100 will be cast into the Lake (counted from 20yrs to 120yrs). With perfect support nobody will suffer the verse below,
Never said in the Bible. Anywhere.
And it does not escape the fact that means there is pain, tears and woe when the Bible says there will not be such things.
Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
Talking to those who read the prophecies. Not saying anything about those living in eternity.
Sin means there would be pain, tears and sorrow. But there is no such thing on the New Earth.
You are assuming that because they are Laws somebody is going to break them. That would go against what is written on the heart of everybody alive. Just like you assume there will be rampant sin during the thousand years.
Again you contradict yourself.
Isaiah says there will be sin and death during the MK.
Does not have to be rampant. Just has to be, period.
And it says there will never be such again. Yet many perish during the Short Time after the MK.
There is a Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. There is none in the NJ.
Yep
Which makes them two different times. One the MK and one on the New Earth with the NJ in eternity.
Where there is no birth, death or any of the other stuff talked about I Isaiah.
You are trying to have both exist at the same time. They don't.
No I'm not
Yep. You are.
You called the New Earth of Isaiah eternity, as in Revelation. It isn't.
The 144,000 are not just saints, as you believe. They are of the 12 Tribes of Israel and are in the Trib and MK, on this earth, not dead or resurrected.\
Never said any harm came to them, that doesn't mean that same protection is extended to the rest of Israel though, If prophecy says they will all perish by the sword (not Christ's sword, Satan's armies of men, as per the sword of the Nations as stated in Romans) then that is going to happen. Then the whole house is brought back to life.
Never says all of Israel perishes. 2/3 perishes. 1/3 lives.
The New Earth of Isaiah means restored, not brand new.
There are other chapters that deal with how well Israel does in the thousand years, you just can't allow for any of 'the rest' being saved and being alive in the one new Earth.
Never said that.
I most assuredly can deal with them.
They are saved just as when OT Israel was covenant.
The time of the Genitles is NOT when Gentiles are saved. It is the time of the Church when Gentiles are covenant.
The New Earth of 2 Peter 3 and Rev. means brand new, not restored.
Okay, but rather than change God's words to fit your preconcieved idea why not just go with every reference as being the very same thing.
Because they are not. Learn how to use grammar and word meanings correctly, not as convient ways to back a doctrine.
Isaiah is about the MK, where the earth is refreshed/restored/made as new.
2 Peter 3 and Revelation is after this earth is wiped out and an new/from scratch, never used before earth is created.
One has Jerusalem with a Temple in it. One has the New Jerusalem with no Temple in it. One has seas and oceans. One has none. One has earthly flesh that has to do ceremonies, offerings and such at Jerusalem. One does has only glorified eternal flesh. One has birth, death, sin, crop planting and sin. One does not.
Two completely different earths. No way you can have them co-exist.
Christ is in the Temple in Jerusalem during the MK. He is on the throne of God with no Temple present on the New Earth.
Yep
Which does not allow you human earthly flesh in eternity.
You have so many irresolvable contradictions in what you are saying.
That is only when you try to mesh you belief into what I'm saying.
No. It is because I see you cannot make them happen as you state.
Simple example.
New Earth of MK then New Earth of Eternity.
You say they are the same New Earth. Cannot be done.
Temple/No Temple. Death/No death. Birth/No birth. Male & Female/No Male & Female. Sin/No sin. Oceans/No Oceans. Moon/No moon.
Yes, I know you think you have them ironed out. But you don't.
You aren't the final authority.
Neither are you.
Saying this and that are realities before the 1,000 years doesn't fly. That has you putting that idealic situation in Israel during the Trib when 2/3 of Israel dies and the AC and Satan are there.
The 1/3 and the 2/3 of Zec:13 is still the same subject in the next chapter, the remnant of the Nations is the 1/3, the 2/3 are who Christ kills at His return.
Nope. They die before he returns.
The subject doesn't change when the chapter changes. LTanners mentioned there was a lack of time reference to Ch:14 in one of the Amill threads, the time reference is at the end of Ch:13.
Tanner has nothing to do with our discussion.
Is God going to save everybody He calls 'my people' or just 1/3.
The 1/3 ARE his people, the nation that is restored.
All means all, if you have to redefine that word to make a theory work then something is out of place.
All means all of the number he declares his people.
He does not say every Jew that every lived is his people.
God reaches out to all humanity. But only those who repent are his elect, saints, people, etc.
A false Jew is not a true Jew, as Paul says.
If all means all then 1/3 has to apply to somebody else.
No it doesn't.
A very good clue is when you turn the page and Gentiles are being killed in such high numbers that only a 'few of the total' are left.
I don't need clues when God tells me exactly who he is talking about.
Saying the NJ is on the earth with the other realities outside the gates does not fly. Because it says when the NJ comes down there is no more Temple, because God dwells with man.
Yes, that is when God himself is with man, it is Christ with man for the thousand years.
Since you don't believe Christ is God incarnate, that is a meaningless statement to me.
Yet, you have a temple outside the NJ in the old Jerusalem, at the same time.
I assure you, I have the temple that Christ builds as being in the thousand years and that is it.
Dodge.
You also have the NJ on the earth as well. Which ain't happenin.
The NJ cannot be on the earth at the same time the Bible says Egypt and Lebanon will be there, going to the Temple. It would cover those nations.
Obviously, does that mean that the new Earth has the same names of places in just the same place?
Yes. Egypt is Egypt. Lebanon is Lebanon.
Your thinking falls apart on the details.
Contradiction after contradiction.
Why do you think I always post a verse to support what I say? The contradiction comes from an attempt to blend what I say with what you believe to be so.
Because you don't post verses that support what you say.
You pull verses out of context and assign meanings to them that have nothing to do with what they are talking about.
Your 'seems like', 'could be' and 'must mean' types answers are proof of nothing.
I only use that kind of language with people that are in disagreement with me, if you think that indicates I have any doubts you're wrong.
I never said you doubted.
But it is an accurate description of your thinking. Not fact base, but assumptions needed to make your doctrine work. So, it 'seems like' something must be the case to make it work.
They are built on the premise you are right about other things and thus this must be the case.
I didn't go out looking for a certain outcome.
What you say disagrees with that.
You refuse to use rules of grammar, refuse to stick with word meanings, take verses out of context and try to blend them with other verses to come up with meanings no one into any kind of linquistics, logic or reasoning studies or teaching would accept.
You come up with what you need, not what is there.
You still have never given me the name of that grammatical book or dictionary that contains and supports the way you read and interpret.
The Holy Spirit told me doesn't work either. He tells me differently.
The reality is you are wrong about those other things, thus they cannot be the case.
Well Core, I think God cares about what He creates, time and space certainly aren't factors on how many people are alive for the new Earth.
God cares yes.
And your perception of how many will be alive isn't either.
If 1/3 of the earth survives the Trib and enters with longitivy and pefect help, the world would be quite full of people in 1,000 years.
Expansion would be exponenial, not arithmatic.
Really, you deny the Triune Godhead. You add works to salvation. You deny Christ is God incarnate. And more.
Let me guess, I'm now a 'not saved' person.
That is between you and God.
Let me just say you has you treading a very dangerous line.
We are so far apart. So very far apart.
I see the new Earth as being busier for people than you do,
I never said it would not be busy. Bad assumption on your part.
and never ending progression of the growth of what began in Eden.
MK, yes. Biblical.
Eternity, no. Not Biblical.
What you fail to note is that every saint from the beginning of time will be there, at the same time. It will be one very busy place with a lot of people.
There are also angels and, in by beliefs, the Pre-Adamics.
A very busy and populated place.
In your view there is a limit to this, once the new Earth is all planted and everybody has built their house, then what, being as that has not taken up very much of eternity.
No building and no planting.
But what makes you think we won't be busy?
We don't have a clue what God's plans are for eternity, now, do we?
He could do a whole other Universe and creation. Or have goals and tasks we cannot even begin to guess at.
Don't let your limited human mind get in the way of what God can do.
I am literal, you are not. Thus not being literal, you cannot begin to offer proof what you say is true. Thus the 'seems' and 'must be' type statements.
You never answered my question about Ezekiel 37,
Not people being brought back, but a nation. Israel.
I have answered that several times in the past.
There are those who come at these issues in similar ways as to how you do. None of you come close to agreeing with each other.
Any recent threads?
Not sure.
Look under the Personal Revelation Forum to see.
You seem to believe in the Amill or Idealism positon this earth is not destroyed completely, but burnt clean and restored.
The Earth, this present Earth, is voided of all life at the end of Satan's 'little season'. Fire from God in Heaven will do that, you know the verse I use that says that,
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Which says the earth disappears in a cloud of smoke. Gone completely.
Which is verified by 2 Pet 3 and Revelation.
The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%203&version=31#fen-NIV-30517a)]
Not everything ON the earth, but everything IN the earth.
Revelation 20
Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
Gone. No where for them. Not to be found.
Not on the earth, but the stars and sky (heavens} and all on and in the earth meaning the earth itself, gone.
Actually it says the heavens vanish like smoke, the Earth goes through a slightly different process but it would seem we agree that it is at the end of Satan's 'little season' that this occures. With your theory this new Earth that comes after this would be the 3rd new Earth, the two we have been talking about plus that one before Adam.
Then after, a New Heavens and New Earth are created. New, the Greek word meaning brand new, not old and reconditioned, as in Isaiah 66.
Apparently that link didn't have any effect on your definitions, it agreed that Isaiah was talking about the same new Earth as Peter and Revelation, so here is another link that puts all those verses as meaning the very same thing.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/65/17.html
Another point about Isaiah meaning the same new Earth is that the new Heavens are also mentioned in both those verses. In Ch:66 it says the new Earth and the new Heavens will remain forever. If the Earth is toasted at the end of Satan's 'little season' then the new Earth has only lasted a thousand years. Ch:66 is only a reference to that there will be new ones that will last as long as what is promised some people on how long they will fulfill a role.
Isa:66:21:
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites,
saith the LORD.
Isa:66:22:
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa:66:23:
And it shall come to pass,
that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another,
shall all flesh come to worship before me,
saith the LORD.
Vs:22 gives a time on how long Vs:21 will last. It doesn't start in the new Earth, it starts sometime before, the moon is still there and so are days of the week. They are Priests from when Christ returns. Priests usually have a congregation, just like a Shepherd has a flock.
In Ch:65 certain things are no longer remembered, since Satan is coming back in a thousand years does that mean nobody would ever remember ever hearing about him and what he is going to try to do, would it not fit in just as well after Judgment Day when the people standing there at the end of that day,
Isa:65:17:
For,
behold,
I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
It does not say life is wiped from the earth. It says the earth and heavens are complete gone, destroyed, go up in a puff of smoke, do not exist anymore.
The people who are alive for the thousand years don't suffer that, they are the ones looking 'down'.
Nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Certainly seem to include everybody left on Earth.
"they that dwell therein shall die in like manner"
The GWT is not on the Earth right? The ones in this verse do not see death,
Re:20:9:
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
Anybody in that camp would be a saint, they would 'be taken' to Heaven to be presented to God as Priests and Kings.
That destruction doesn't include this Heaven,
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
These are looking towards the 3rd Heaven, the place where the GWT is, even the Angels go to the 3rd Heaven when their home is removed.
Never said in the Bible.
Hebrews 12 is the same place and time as this verse,
Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
God the Judge is the one on the throne.
Does God make the new Earth the same size as this one? It doesn't say, I don't see that there would be any rule that would mean it has to be the same size.
You have nothing to base that statement on. It is a pure opinion.
If God increases the size of Jerusalem why would it be unthinkable that everything else is bigger also. Was Jerusalem ever given dimensions like the original land was, or for Ezekiel's description of a temple complex and the land outside. I don't have those dimensions right handy. Would Israel have any land outside the NJ?
And the Idealism position birth, death and such never end. They just keep moving forward with God setting different scenarios for life to go on.
What is the whole purpose of mankind being made male and female, it is to allow for an increase in numbers. To halt that process for everybody would leave nothing new (as in babies) for eternity.
Which is exactly what happens. Neither male nor female.
Again, you theorize without anyting Biblical to back you.
It only means what happens in the 6 days is an ongoing process. A person gets a place that is his for eternity. In that time he has kids that grow up and when they get married they go to a piece of the new Earth that doesn't have any people there and they build and have a family. Eventually they form a nation by joining with other families
How does a little one become a thousand or a great Nation if not through an increase in their children? This can't happen during a mere thousand years but it certainly can easily be done when you have eternity before them, if that means being able to travel where we cannot travel today. There are only so many Nations during the thousand years, no new ones come into being.
Children are in the MK, not in Eternity.
You have them all dieing at 100 yrs old, is that who Satan tempts, children?
Take these verse, where are these worlds and will man ever 'visit and inhabit them'?
Heb:1:2:
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb:11:3:
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
I believe the other worlds were the dominions of angels, before the Fall.
So, if every angel has his own world, that would speak for a lot of worlds, would it not?
After all, it says the NJ is for Israel and Church, not angels.
I'm assuming you have a couple of chapters of Scripture that support that thing about the Angels. It does say something about them being able to walk on firey stones. I haven't found anything that says Angels are there. The GWT would have to be a different throne than the one in the NJ though because Angels are seen around some throne.
If room to grow is an issue with there being new people after Judgment Day, that would seem to solve it. Our new Earth could easily be the 'old heaven'.
Not even a Biblical concept. It is your imaganation talking about Man growing in numbers for Eternity, not the Bible.
I totaly reject that.
That's fine, but I think God likes people and I also think He likes to see His creations flourish in numbers, a large number of beasts of the field are more pleasing to His eye than a tiny number. Many broad pastures are more pleasing than a small finite number.
And the simple disproof to that thinking is angels.
Created as an exact number. Finite. Never growing.
So much for saying God wants ever expanding numbers.
Fine our solar system then, or do we never use our glorified bodies to go anyplace that is now just too dangerous. Angels were never given in marriage, man and women are meant to be married. God increased Eve's conception so having children was there from the very beginning.
Rev an 2 Peter 3 do not say burnt clean. They say this earth is totally removed, destroyed, gone. Then a brand New Earth, that does not look like this one, at all, is created.
Does it look any different than Genesis 2 before there was a man to till the ground (and I don't mean some will spend eternity walking behind a plow)
I said like Genesis 1:1 before corrupted.
So, of course it looks different then Gen 2.
It didn't start out looking too well but it looked pretty decent by the end of the chapter, two that is.
I believe that the earth of Gen 1:1 is what the New Earth will look like.
Not unlike what Israel will look like at the end of the thousand years.
Very unlike, as in gone versus corrupted.
Try what Israel looks like just before Satan is released at the end of the thousand years.
That earth was corrupted, but will be restored.
The two people were corrupted, thanks to you know who.
The earth was corrupeted before they were created. Gen 1:1-2 was BEFORE Adam was created.
It certainly changed from when they were in the Garden and when they weren't.
My opinion and belief. Not pushing it, just giving you my perspective.
You have to go where Scripture leads you, I'm not doing anything different.
Oh, you are doing very differently.
I suppose that has some truth in it as I also let Scripture define and refine Scripture.
Isaiah 65-66 is about Israel, not all people or nations. It says nation. I identifieds Jacob, Jerusalem and so on as the people and place referenced.
Chapter 66 yes, but the reference to the new Earth is still a 'will be' not 'it is now'. I already gave you my summation of ch:65.
Yep. Will be. But not the New Earth John speaks of.
66 is about Israel at the start of the thousand years, how does something that is referenced as a 'will be made' suddenly make it to 'has already been made'?
Isa:66:22:
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
After the White Throne there will be no more birth or death. If there were there would have to be more White Throne Judgements afterwards.
Why people won't fall into sin again, we will have God and the Lamb (who know the thoughts of those inside the city and outside the city), there will also be the people who were with Christ for the thousand years who will be perfect in their role as Priests and Kings.
Satan and the angels who fell were with God and still sinned.
Those born will still have sin natures.
There will be those who were with Christ in the MK that will march with Satan in the Short Time.
No. If there is on-going birth and death, there will be sin. Physical death comes from sin nature.
Perfect flesh humans would not age and die.
Notice they are never given any opportunity to repent?
The whole point in getting a new heart is that that heart will not come up with sinful things to do.
Do you think the ones whose bones are buried (Ezekiel 39) will be amoung those with Satan?
If there were more birth and death, there would be more sin, as shown in talking about one dyinig at 100 being cursed and an child still.
An infant will be until the age of 20yrs. From 20 to the age of 100 they will be considered a child, it is a persons childhood that dies at the age of 100, not the person.
Does not say that. It says if the die at that age. Not that childhood dies at that age.
You refuse to read literally. Just won't work for you thinking.
How long are an old man's days? I put it as becoming an old man at 120 yrs and living for eternity.
At the age of 120yrs every person is judged, at that time you either go onto eternal life (and with the support in place that will be everybody).
Never said in the Bible.
You just keep inventing things.
A sinner of 100 will be cast into the Lake (counted from 20yrs to 120yrs). With perfect support nobody will suffer the verse below,
Never said in the Bible. Anywhere.
And it does not escape the fact that means there is pain, tears and woe when the Bible says there will not be such things.
It was God who determined His spirit would remain with a man for 120 years back in Genesis 6.
Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
Talking to those who read the prophecies. Not saying anything about those living in eternity.
So anybody who has lied since the beginning of time will go straight to the Lake. Since we are to fear God that would take care of the rest pretty much. Apparently nobody makes it. The way it works is you are born, you sin in life and then you die. When you are raised those sins have been paid so you start out with a clean slate, that ois a one time deal, just as fallen Angels cannot repent any man who sins cannot repent. If God had been in the Garden there would have been no tempting, no tempting no sin committed.
Sin means there would be pain, tears and sorrow. But there is no such thing on the New Earth.
You are assuming that because they are Laws somebody is going to break them. That would go against what is written on the heart of everybody alive. Just like you assume there will be rampant sin during the thousand years.
Again you contradict yourself.
Isaiah says there will be sin and death during the MK.
Does not have to be rampant. Just has to be, period.
And it says there will never be such again. Yet many perish during the Short Time after the MK.
At what age would you kick your kids out of your life because of the way they have acted?
Is there a certain age you expect him to act in an adult like mannor?
Is there anybody who is more than 100 or 120 years old at the end of the MK?
There is a Temple in the Jerusalem of the MK. There is none in the NJ.
Yep
Which makes them two different times. One the MK and one on the New Earth with the NJ in eternity.
Where there is no birth, death or any of the other stuff talked about I Isaiah.
You are trying to have both exist at the same time. They don't.
No I'm not
Yep. You are.
You called the New Earth of Isaiah eternity, as in Revelation. It isn't.
In 65 it is, in 66 it is only given in relation to specifying how long they will be Priests.
The 144,000 are not just saints, as you believe. They are of the 12 Tribes of Israel and are in the Trib and MK, on this earth, not dead or resurrected.\
Never said any harm came to them, that doesn't mean that same protection is extended to the rest of Israel though, If prophecy says they will all perish by the sword (not Christ's sword, Satan's armies of men, as per the sword of the Nations as stated in Romans) then that is going to happen. Then the whole house is brought back to life.
Never says all of Israel perishes. 2/3 perishes. 1/3 lives.
The New Earth of Isaiah means restored, not brand new.
There are other chapters that deal with how well Israel does in the thousand years, you just can't allow for any of 'the rest' being saved and being alive in the one new Earth.
Never said that.
I most assuredly can deal with them.
They are saved just as when OT Israel was covenant.
The time of the Genitles is NOT when Gentiles are saved. It is the time of the Church when Gentiles are covenant.
Killed by Satan's human armies,
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
A longer version of the above verse,
Mic:3:1:
And I said,
Hear,
I pray you,
O heads of Jacob,
and ye princes of the house of Israel;
Is it not for you to know judgment?
Mic:3:2:
Who hate the good,
and love the evil;
who pluck off their skin from off them,
and their flesh from off their bones;
Mic:3:3:
Who also eat the flesh of my people,
and flay their skin from off them;
and they break their bones,
and chop them in pieces,
as for the pot,
and as flesh within the caldron.
Mic:3:4:
Then shall they cry unto the LORD,
but he will not hear them:
he will even hide his face from them at that time,
as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Mic:3:5:
Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err,
that bite with their teeth,
and cry,
Peace;
and he that putteth not into their mouths,
they even prepare war against him.
Mic:3:6:
Therefore night shall be unto you,
that ye shall not have a vision;
and it shall be dark unto you,
that ye shall not divine;
and the sun shall go down over the prophets,
and the day shall be dark over them.
Mic:3:7:
Then shall the seers be ashamed,
and the diviners confounded:
yea,
they shall all cover their lips;
for there is no answer of God.
Mic:3:8:
But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD,
and of judgment,
and of might,
to declare unto Jacob his transgression,
and to Israel his sin.
Mic:3:9:
Hear this,
I pray you,
ye heads of the house of Jacob,
and princes of the house of Israel,
that abhor judgment,
and pervert all equity.
Mic:3:10:
They build up Zion with blood,
and Jerusalem with iniquity.
Mic:3:11:
The heads thereof judge for reward,
and the priests thereof teach for hire,
and the prophets thereof divine for money:
yet will they lean upon the LORD,
and say,
Is not the LORD among us?
none evil can come upon us.
Mic:3:12:
Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field,
and Jerusalem shall become heaps,
and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.
CoreIssue
05-07-2007, 11:46 PM
MHz, worn out clothes are discarded.
2 Peter 3 says the earth is gone in fire.
Revelation says the earth cannot be found anywhere. It is gone.
You dwell on Isaiah because that is the only one you can attempt to make the meanings fit your beliefs.
I am not going into your theorizing about the size of the earth and such. It is empy of any Biblical evidence.
Nor bouncing all over the place with other issues.
It STATES the earth is gone, not to be found, burnt up. Plain, simple and literally.
The heavens need to be made new just after the Church leaves after being there for 7 years. As Desi would say to Lucy "You have some splianing to do".
CoreIssue
05-09-2007, 12:17 PM
The heavens need to be made new just after the Church leaves after being there for 7 years. As Desi would say to Lucy "You have some splianing to do".
Renewed, yes.
New, as in Revelation no.
Try all you want. You cannot make renewed = brand new and MK flesh = eternal flesh.
kay-gee
05-09-2007, 02:18 PM
I'm not seeing Matt:20 in this thread at all. Could you try to be a little more down to earth in your teachings in order that those of us on the sidelines can learn something! all the best..........
CoreIssue
05-09-2007, 09:32 PM
I'm not seeing Matt:20 in this thread at all. Could you try to be a little more down to earth in your teachings in order that those of us on the sidelines can learn something! all the best..........
Unfortumately MHz has a real hard time staying on subject.
Matthew 20 is where God uses hiring workers for the vineyard is used to talk about those he calls to himself to work for himself.
Some are added during the day, they work less hours and get paid more.
Those hired the latest in the day come out of the field first, but get the big money for the time they spent.
Those who began first are still in the field, but getting no more or less pay for longer work.
The Bible says that with greater knowledge of sin there are greater blessing and rewards available.
The first called only had the Law of Conscience. Thus their knowledge of sin was minimal. So their 'pay' is minimal.
After the Flood, they were still under the Law of Conscience, but such things as the Flood gave a greater understanding of the consequences of sin.
Along comes Israel. Law vastly increased the knowledge of sin. So their 'pay' sent up drastically.
At the same time there were still those under Conscience, in the world, at the same time.
Then comes Church. Church, with the Holy Spirit in them, has a greater knowledge and understanding of sin because they better understand the intent of Law over the letter of the Law.
Now it is knowledge not applied legalistically, but by grace and understanding.
So the pay shot up.
After Church is again Israel. No Holy Spirit within and back to Law.
So, You have Law of Conscience, Israel and then Church called.
Church, the last called, is the first pulled from the field, by the Rapture. Thus the first paid, and the one paid the most.
Israel complains about the upstart Gentiles. They complained to Jesus about what he said about non-Jews.
Christ told them the employer can hire who he wants, when he wants and for what pay. He can start and end their work day as he wishes. And God, being God, can so even more.
It is a two-fold message. It tells you the employer can hire and pay as he sees fit. The workers can choose to work or not.
And it tells you that God will choose those who work for him, in what way and for how long, that he wants, and he will pay them what he feels is just. But the pay will not be equal because the jobs and responsibilities were not equal.
kay-gee
05-09-2007, 10:43 PM
Wow!, You read all that into that simple parable? I always thought it meant that if someone was like 90 years old and on their death bed, they could obey the gospel of Christ and be just as saved as a person who got saved at a very Young age. In context it seems to fit, considering the concerns of Peter a few verses earlier. all the best...
CoreIssue
05-09-2007, 11:30 PM
Wow!, You read all that into that simple parable? I always thought it meant that if someone was like 90 years old and on their death bed, they could obey the gospel of Christ and be just as saved as a person who got saved at a very Young age. In context it seems to fit, considering the concerns of Peter a few verses earlier. all the best...
And how did you get one single old person out of that?
No one is paid (rewarded) by Christ until the First Resurrection, which begins with the Rapture.
Who is the first group completed? The Church.
Who is the last called as a covenant group? The Church.
So, as a group, the Church is last called to God, first removed from the field and thus the first fully paid.
First and last for individuals is in the sense that the very important on the earth may be among the least important in Heaven, and the least the most important.
That is in included in the meaning per verse 30. But the field workers is most assuredly a reference to groups, not individuals.
I'm not seeing Matt:20 in this thread at all. Could you try to be a little more down to earth in your teachings in order that those of us on the sidelines can learn something! all the best..........
Was there anything specific in what I've said so far that is unclear?
The 1st workers were offered a penny to work in the field for a day, three more offers were given to some people to work throughout the day. The last ones were hired 1 hour before the end of the day. At the end of the day all the workers were gathered. The last got a penny, the other two were also given a penny, finally the first ones hired were given the penny promised to them when they were first hired. It is these who complained that the other workers were paid the same price. The wage was paid for a days work, the last did not receive more than the first, all workers got the very same reward.
The first thought they deserved more.
The point of the thread was to see if the last could be identified, such as could they be 'the rest' who are only resurrected at Judgment Day. Is the penny eternal life?
Some are added during the day, they work less hours and get paid more.
False, they all got paid the very same, a penny.
Those hired the latest in the day come out of the field first, but get the big money for the time they spent.
False, they were all gathered at the same time, the end of the day. The last get paid the same as the first because God treats everybody 'hired' the very same. The important part is that they were in God's field, that is what He cares about.
Those who began first are still in the field, but getting no more or less pay for longer work.
All wages are given out at the end of the day, there is nobody left in the fiel