Revelations being the end of Rome...

[cbressler1976]

I do believe that Jesus will come again because He said so....but I have heard that the Revelations was about the fall of Rome... This I am confused about...what do you think?

[CoreIssue]

I do believe that Jesus will come again because He said so....but I have heard that the Revelations was about the fall of Rome... This I am confused about...what do you think?
That is a part of several End Time doctrines.

Historicists see Revelation has being figurative of historical events. Such stretch from Christ all the way to the Second Coming, at the end of time.

Preterists see it all fufilled by 70 AD.

Partial-Preterists see it as fulfilling the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel by 70 AD and the rest to be fulfilled in the a future 3.5 years.

Idealists, which include Amills, true Amills, see it as extremely figurative and stretching from Christ to the Second Coming. But not as historical events, like Historicists, but as spiritualized events way more figurative.

So, what I am trying to say, is that what you said about the Fall of Rome falls into a number of doctrines.

Now, for such as Pre-Trib and some other Pre-Mill doctrines, we do see a fall of Rome. But not historical Rome, but the Rome that is the city and empire of the Anti-Christ.

To try to make it simple, which is hard, I will try to give a brief explanation.

Mystery Babylon began with ancient Babylon, then proceeded to grow through Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome, the empire.

Rome collapsed into ten nations, called the Ten Toes, by Daniel, and 10 crowns, by John.

Those Ten recombine at the end to form the empire of the AC, from which he arises.

He comes from Greece and heads up this reformed empire.

That empire is currently known as the EU. Study of maps and such show the EU is the geographical area of the Ten Toes.

In the 7th Bowl, the city of Rome is destroyed so completely it will never return. Immediately after is the Second Coming, where the armies of that empire are wiped out and the AC, leader of that empire is thrown into the Pit, along with the False Prophet, the head of the AC religion.

Catholicism, headquartered in Rome, is the Pagan Roman religion cloaked in Christianity. A study of Pagan Rome, compared to Catholicism, shows the office of Pope, the College of Cardinals and tons more are pagan practices renamed Christian.

The destruction of Rome is the destruction of Mystery Babylon, meaning the political, religious and economic system developed from Babylon to then.

It is far more than a physical entity. It is a complete system.

Hope that helps.

[kay-gee]

So many doctrines! I guess just choose one thats right for you. Try to borrow a bit from several. It reduces arguments. All the best.....

[CoreIssue]

So many doctrines! I guess just choose one thats right for you. Try to borrow a bit from several. It reduces arguments. All the best.....
The one that is right for me is the one that is correct. Whether I like everything said or not.

Really, what matters more to you, accuracy or being political correct?

That is all I am hearing from you, really. Compromise and avoidance in the name of so-called harmony at the cost of Truth.

The only ones who win in that thinking are those with agendas of their own, not God's.

Christians use to die defending the Truth. Now so many will not even tolerate the discomfort of those who get upset if disagreed with.

What happened to seeking truth for truth's sake?

[cbressler1976]

Well, I am learning....I am 30 yrs now and have been a christian since I was little....I believe in Jesus and that he died for mine and everyone's sins....i love him....and I misunderstand a lot...I started reading the bible again and praying to God that I understand it....I know what is important...and that is to love your neighbor with all of your heart...even the ones who hate you...and to love God with all of your heart and soul...I think the important thing is to remember this....no matter if you are a baptist or catholic....I am a baptist...I went to a catholic school...I know some things of both of them....but I believe that I will read the bible and ask God to help me understand....but I can read the revelations over and over again...and I just don't understand....lots of different people have different opinions....I know what the important thing is though....and I pray that I can start loving everyone....it's so hard to do...but I will keep trying for the rest of my life...you know, I recently read that some people believe that Jesus will be born again and that he is already born and that he is a baby here on earth....now where does it say that in the bible? it's confusing...

[CoreIssue]

Well, I am learning....I am 30 yrs now and have been a christian since I was little....I believe in Jesus and that he died for mine and everyone's sins....i love him....and I misunderstand a lot...I started reading the bible again and praying to God that I understand it....I know what is important...and that is to love your neighbor with all of your heart...even the ones who hate you...and to love God with all of your heart and soul...I think the important thing is to remember this....no matter if you are a baptist or catholic....I am a baptist...I went to a catholic school...I know some things of both of them....but I believe that I will read the bible and ask God to help me understand....but I can read the revelations over and over again...and I just don't understand....lots of different people have different opinions....I know what the important thing is though....and I pray that I can start loving everyone....it's so hard to do...but I will keep trying for the rest of my life...you know, I recently read that some people believe that Jesus will be born again and that he is already born and that he is a baby here on earth....now where does it say that in the bible? it's confusing...
Dealing with the last statement first, that is not Biblical nor Christian, at all.

You have a good attitude to build knowledge upon. Keep it up.

It takes time to build up the knowledge to get a good grip on Revelation.

Don't get discouraged. Try the End Times Chart on the CTZ main page. Those may help you out.

[kay-gee]

cbressler1976...You are correct in many things. The things that you are striving towards in your Christian life are the only ones that really matter in this life. As you say, there are many explanations for the Book of Revelation out there. Much confusion as every one thinks they have some secret insight into it. I believe the only person that knows what Rev is all about was John himself and I seriously doubt that he understood it all. He was only told to write it down. When you are dealing with spiritual experiences of that magnitude, mere human words would fail you. Even Paul had a similar experience, and he could not even ascertain if he was in or out of his body. He saw thing so intense that were not permitted to tell. So folks today take these highly codified articles and hinge entire doctrines around them. That is not even so bad except that they cause a lot of dissent- ion and threaten to deceive even the very elect. Hang in there. Examine every thing that people tell you. all the best....

[CoreIssue]

cbressler1976...You are correct in many things. The things that you are striving towards in your Christian life are the only ones that really matter in this life.
Study is one of them.
As you say, there are many explanations for the Book of Revelation out there.
As there are for many things in the Bible. It takes HONEST study to find the truth.
Much confusion as every one thinks they have some secret insight into it.
As do many concerning Christ, God, salvation and more.

It isn't limited to that one subject, as you wish to imply.
I believe the only person that knows what Rev is all about was John himself and I seriously doubt that he understood it all.
Then why did God command us to study it and say it holds a blessing for those who do?

Nothing in the Bible supports what you are saying here.

I realize Amills don't like the Book of Revelation. And whether you know it or not you ARE arguing for Amillennialism, but not from a point of knowledge, but thinking ignorance of it promotes that belief.
He was only told to write it down.
Saying to study it holds a blessing says that is a false statement and position.
When you are dealing with spiritual experiences of that magnitude, mere human words would fail you.
No. Actually the literal words paint a vivid picture of what will happen.
Even Paul had a similar experience, and he could not even ascertain if he was in or out of his body. He saw thing so intense that were not permitted to tell.
Not talking about Paul here, are we?

John was commanded to tell us. So not even in the same frame of reference.
So folks today take these highly codified articles and hinge entire doctrines around them.
Codified? That isn't true.
That is not even so bad except that they cause a lot of dissent- ion and threaten to deceive even the very elect. Hang in there. Examine every thing that people tell you. all the best....
Yes, examine everthing. And don't be discouraged by those who tell you to not bother digging into it.

Ask yourself why they are doing that.

Hmmm. Even more interesting from one who takes the Amil position and doesn't want you to read it literally.

[kay-gee]

Yeah like creatures that look like no known species on earth, popping up out of oceans and horses riding through the sky. Real literal! C'mon! Any body can attach meanings to things like that. As for study... Most NT teachings don't take too much repetitive study to grasp..for example "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you" Most folks could agree to what that verse says. It is then a case of believing and applying. It is a different thing all together when you are dealing with these fantastical apocalyptic writings as per Revelation. Millions have attached millions of meanings to these things. For crying out loud, not even all pre-mills believe in the same things. By the way, what ever happened to 666 becoming some sort of credit card bar code on the forehead machine thing? That must have been some theory that fell by the way-side like others. It is important to remain practical in regards to Revelation. I accept it every bit as much scripture as any NT. But I am not going to jump through hoops to create meanings for it. all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Yeah like creatures that look like no known species on earth, popping up out of oceans
KG, you are showing your lack of study. That 'creatures' are literally defined within the verses.
and horses riding through the sky.
Again, the meaning is literal IF one has studied the Bible to find where such things are literally defined.

Obvious, you have not.
Real literal! C'mon! Any body can attach meanings to things like that.
Or course! That is of course if then neglect to study in full and just start slapping meanings on.

A lot of people are guilty of that, in fact.
As for study... Most NT teachings don't take too much repetitive study to grasp..for example "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you"
Easy to understand, until, of course, one starts studying ALL the issues related to that statement.

Then it grows from being a personal thing of how one should be treated according to the Bible. Which is how we should want to be treated.
Most folks could agree to what that verse says.
Really?
It is then a case of believing and applying.
Believing what, exactly?

What the PC folk want or what the Bible tells us we should believe.
It is a different thing all together when you are dealing with these fantastical apocalyptic writings as per Revelation.
Indeed Revelation is more complex.

But you are over simplifying the other.

Again, it boils back down to STUDY!
Millions have attached millions of meanings to these things.
As they have to every issue in the Bible.

Please don't tell me you actually think the Bible doesn't go into greater depth on issues than what you are proposing.
For crying out loud, not even all pre-mills believe in the same things.
Agree. And is true for Amills.

But has that stopped you, on CTZ, from pushing tooth and nail to support it? NO!
By the way, what ever happened to 666 becoming some sort of credit card bar code on the forehead machine thing?
Not 666 exactly. That has a distinct meaning that is a bit controversial.

But there is absolutely nothing unreasonable in seeing chip technology, as is already in use in Europe for livestock and in some of the US and other countries for inventory and shipping controls, as being implanted in ones hand or forehead.

And yes, it carrying a UPC code would be exactly how the tech works.
That must have been some theory that fell by the way-side like others.
Your iginorance is showing again! That is the dominate theory out there.
It is important to remain practical in regards to Revelation. I accept it every bit as much scripture as any NT. But I am not going to jump through hoops to create meanings for it. all the best.........
Of course not! It does not fit in well with your Amill thinking! ;)