Look 3457 - Genesis must be Literal for the whole Bible to make sense

[Sid]

Unless the first 11 chapters of Genesis are authentic historical events, the rest of the Bible is incomplete and incomprehensible as to its full meaning.


The theme of the Bible is Redemption, and may be outlined thus:


• God’s redeeming purpose is revealed in Genesis 1–11,

• God’s redeeming purpose progresses from Genesis 12 to Jude 25, and

• God’s redeeming purpose is consummated in Revelation 1–22.


But why does mankind need to be redeemed?

What is it that he needs to be redeemed from?


The answer is given in Genesis 1–11, namely, from the ruin brought about by sin.


Unless we know that the entrance of sin to the human race was a true historical fact, God’s purpose in providing a substitutionary atonement is a mystery.

Conversely, the historical truth of Genesis 1–11 shows that all mankind has come under the righteous anger of God and needs salvation from the penalty, power, and presence of sin.




More . . . (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c024.html)

[look3467]

Unless the first 11 chapters of Genesis are authentic historical events, the rest of the Bible is incomplete and incomprehensible as to its full meaning.


The theme of the Bible is Redemption, and may be outlined thus:


• God’s redeeming purpose is revealed in Genesis 1–11,

• God’s redeeming purpose progresses from Genesis 12 to Jude 25, and

• God’s redeeming purpose is consummated in Revelation 1–22.


But why does mankind need to be redeemed?

What is it that he needs to be redeemed from?


The answer is given in Genesis 1–11, namely, from the ruin brought about by sin.


Unless we know that the entrance of sin to the human race was a true historical fact, God’s purpose in providing a substitutionary atonement is a mystery.

Conversely, the historical truth of Genesis 1–11 shows that all mankind has come under the righteous anger of God and needs salvation from the penalty, power, and presence of sin.




More . . . (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c024.html)

Hi Sid, I am new to this forum and have a wealth of information to impart. That is if there is an open mind?
Your topic is a good one in that in it is the essences of all of God's works.

Jesus is seen in the bible using the creation format to recreate the heaven lies, or gap the great gulf span that existed prior to His sacrifice.

The creation story (Is my belief) is a story depicting Gods works in creation and of how mankind came to be considered separate from God.
This separation, which is death top the body, bringing physical death, and death to the spirit.

The whole purpose than for Christ was to overturn one of the two penalties.

The spiritual death (Separation) was overturned by God in Jesus for all of mankind, due to the fact that it wasn't mankind's fault for the situation it found itself in.

In order than for God in Jesus to overturn the spiritual death penalty, the 7-day creation story is used again so that all humanity from the very first parents are not excluded.

The creation story work is done in one day, and that day is the 24 hour period that Jesus endured at His crucifixion.

So, all 7 days are compiled into one day, or dividing the day into 7 parts.
Here is a quick breakdown:

There are 3 pictures painted in the bible of the same picture.
God doubles twice before he brings it to pass.

1st picture is divided into 4 quarters, each 6hrs. Equals to the images in Revelation about the 4 beasts with six wings.
1st quarter 6pm to 12pm mid-night = 1st day creation
2nd quarter 12pm mid-night to 6 am sunrise = 2nd day creation
3rd quarter 6 am sunrise to 12 noon = 3rd day creation
4th quarter 12 noon to 6 pm sundown.= 4th day creation

2nd picture is the day divided in half or 2 12 hour periods = 5th and 6th days of creation.
These two days have as symbols the two witnesses.

3rd picture is one whole day symbolized by the 24 Elders = day of rest or the 7th day.

If this interests you or anyone else, I'd be happy to discuss it without no intentions of converting anyone to anything.

I am a Christian in That I strongly believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and am sitting on a firm foundation that can not be moved.

I am saved by God in Jesus and wish to share my joy with others who can appreciate what a wonderful God we have.

My views as I now view them, may be controversial depending on the degree of maturity a christian may hold.

We are all at different levels of faith, yet we are all equal in the eyes of God.

Thought I'd make this offer since the topic is creation.

Peace>>>AJ

[CoreIssue]

Hi, AJ.

We are open to listening. But it 'appears' you are going down a very non-literal path.

You need to say more than this.

[look3467]

But why does mankind need to be redeemed?>>>Sid

I will give some verses to shed light on what I will explain.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

….“Made subject to”… and “subjected the same in hope”…is where we find the reason for mankind’s redemption.

Our first parents who ever they were, but for the sake of explanation God gave us this story (Adam and Eve)for our 101 course in understanding His creation works.

A child can be told this story and it will be understood without any reservations as written.
But as the child grows in knowledge, there will be questions concerning the story as to its being the real story. Story: or literal?

As you can see by the responses already given that there seems to be a slight doubt, yet still holding on to what has been taught.

Now that we got that out of the way, let’s consider a few things first. Use of Common sense thinking, reasoning and along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


Lets inject your second question: “What is it that he needs to be redeemed from?”>>>Sid


If we take a few bible verses such as this one: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

This is a separation a man or women goes through from their parents and both become one new entity, couple, and or family.

This separation though not death between parents and child, but in the eyes of God, Heaven and earth, there is a separation which the process (separation) brought about death to the body.

Then as the knowledge begins to be introduced, we discover that we fall short of righteousness to enter into heaven.

We all partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as from infants , we begining to ingest knowledge.

The age of accountability is the age where a child has determined the difference between good and evil, and understands it as such.

From then on, his spirit is urged to seek God for the rest of the answers.

Hence all the struggles of seeking God that humanity faces.

That issue, we all face.


Unless we know that the entrance of sin to the human race was a true historical fact, God’s purpose in providing a substitutionary atonement is a mystery. >>>Sid


Question: If a baby 6 months old dies, what is its fate? Heaven: or hell?

I asked that question to explain what I believe is the entrance of sin.

A baby is (as like) Adam in spirit and like Eve in the flesh, before the fall. Innocent, pure in spirit and without a speck of: sin.

As the child grows, knowledge is fed and when the age of accountability arrives, the child then becomes as like Adam and Eve after the fall. (Same condition.)

Therefore, Gods salvation is given to all mankind to offset that injustice.
God’s salvation is spelled out: Yah=Father and shua =salvation and together = Jesus.
For that reason God gave us Jesus: Eze 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

A mystery to them that understand not, but not to those who have understanding.

Conversely, the historical truth of Genesis 1–11 shows that all mankind has come under the righteous anger of God and needs salvation from the penalty, power, and presence of sin.

Righteous anger is really the love of God.

God in Jesus consumes all sin in love and renders us His righteousness, for entrance into the body of Christ.

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Jesus at the cross consumed all the hate, the beatings, the anger which was within mankind as God.

Mankind is free to live as it wishes, but let it be known that without God in the mix, life can be hell.

Therefore, having an understanding of what God’s love is like, we should have no walls, no prejudices, no requirements, but to simply love as Jesus loved.

Peace>>>AJ

[CoreIssue]

But why does mankind need to be redeemed?>>>Sid

I will give some verses to shed light on what I will explain.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

….“Made subject to”… and “subjected the same in hope”…is where we find the reason for mankind’s redemption.
For clarity of reading, something other than archaic English. Plus give the whole statement.
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208:20-22&version=31#fen-NIV-28123a)] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Our first parents who ever they were, but for the sake of explanation God gave us this story (Adam and Eve)for our 101 course in understanding His creation works.
Adam and Eve. Literally stated.

A child can be told this story and it will be understood without any reservations as written.
But as the child grows in knowledge, there will be questions concerning the story as to its being the real story. Story: or literal?

Literal.

Abandon literal and the meaning is destroyed. Becomes relative and undefined. Subject to the interprets whim.
As you can see by the responses already given that there seems to be a slight doubt, yet still holding on to what has been taught.
No. No doubt. Who showed any doubt?
Now that we got that out of the way,
Hardly out of the way.

Before one can move into substance the foundation must first be firmly established.
let’s consider a few things first. Use of Common sense thinking, reasoning
OK. Common sense and reasoning says that if it isn't literally, it is devoid of true meaning.

and along with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Who says it is literal, to me, and the others.


Lets inject your second question: “What is it that he needs to be redeemed from?”>>>Sid


If we take a few bible verses such as this one: Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

This is a separation a man or women goes through from their parents and both become one new entity, couple, and or family.

This separation though not death between parents and child, but in the eyes of God, Heaven and earth, there is a separation which the process (separation) brought about death to the body.

It brought about both spiritual and physical death.

Then as the knowledge begins to be introduced, we discover that we fall short of righteousness to enter into heaven.

We all partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as from infants , we begining to ingest knowledge.

No. We don't partake of the tree. That was a one time deal with long term effect, generation to generation.
The age of accountability is the age where a child has determined the difference between good and evil, and understands it as such.
Agree.
From then on, his spirit is urged to seek God for the rest of the answers.
I disagree. It is from the beginning, but appropriate to where the person is.

Hence all the struggles of seeking God that humanity faces.

That issue, we all face.

Agree.


Unless we know that the entrance of sin to the human race was a true historical fact, God’s purpose in providing a substitutionary atonement is a mystery. >>>Sid


Question: If a baby 6 months old dies, what is its fate? Heaven: or hell?

Heaven. The child is innocent, thus not accountable for sin. Just as sin existed that had no condemnation, until it was revealed. First by Conscience and then by Law.

I asked that question to explain what I believe is the entrance of sin.

A baby is (as like) Adam in spirit and like Eve in the flesh, before the fall. Innocent, pure in spirit and without a speck of: sin.

No. We are born with sin nature, both in spirit and flesh.

The issue is accountability.

As the child grows, knowledge is fed and when the age of accountability arrives, the child then becomes as like Adam and Eve after the fall. (Same condition.)

No. The child does not repeat the Fall. It is born fallen.

Therefore, Gods salvation is given to all mankind to offset that injustice.

Offered. Not given. Big difference in meaning.

God’s salvation is spelled out: Yah=Father and shua =salvation and together = Jesus.
For that reason God gave us Jesus: Eze 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Nope. It was a common Hebrew name. Very common.

It means God (Yahweh), not Father, saves. God Saves.

Jesus is actually a bad translation, coming through the Latin. It really should be Joshua.
A mystery to them that understand not, but not to those who have understanding.
They knew what it meant. But not how it applied to Jesus.

Conversely, the historical truth of Genesis 1–11 shows that all mankind has come under the righteous anger of God and needs salvation from the penalty, power, and presence of sin.

Judgement, not anger.
Righteous anger is really the love of God.
No. It is justice.

God in Jesus consumes all sin in love and renders us His righteousness, for entrance into the body of Christ.

Hmmm. From other things you said, do you believe in the Trinity? Meaning 3 personages in the unity of one God?

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Jesus at the cross consumed all the hate, the beatings, the anger which was within mankind as God.

'Within mankind as God' means what, exactly?
Mankind is free to live as it wishes, but let it be known that without God in the mix, life can be hell.
Free within limits. And subject to judgement and condemnation for eternity.
Therefore, having an understanding of what God’s love is like, we should have no walls, no prejudices, no requirements, but to simply love as Jesus loved.
Christ did not love with condition.

He will still condemn people to eternity in the Lake for not repenting.

Am I detecting Universal Salvation, here?

[look3467]

For clarity of reading, something other than archaic English. Plus give the whole statement.>>>CoreIssue
Sorry, I missed highlighting the rest.
But the point was made I hope.


Adam and Eve. Literally stated.>>>CoreIssue


If you wish

Literal.>>>CoreIssue

Again, if they wish

No. No doubt. Who showed any doubt?>>>CoreIssue


Yes. I believe it literal. It has to be.
If Adam isn’t a literal man and there wasn’t a literal fall , then why would we literaly need a savior.>>>romans8

“It has to be?” Seems like doubt to me!


OK. Common sense and reasoning says that if it isn't literally, it is devoid of true meaning.>>>CoreIssue


Or, say, I wonder if there is more to it that what meets the eye, reasoning, which will drive us to seek further the meanings of scripture.


Who says it is literal, to me, and the others.>>>CoreIssue


I won’t deny you that, for I too believed it too.

It brought about both spiritual and physical death.>>>CoreIssue

If following the story of Adam and Eve, were they physical before the fall, and were they made perfect?
They didn’t die while in the flesh, but after that knowledge was ingested. So the story goes.


No. We don't partake of the tree. That was a one time deal with long term effect, generation to generation.>>>CoreIssue


If that is the case you and I would have been born sinners, when yet, there was no sin to commit as an infant, let alone have knowledge.

Heaven. The child is innocent, thus not accountable for sin. Just as sin existed that had no condemnation, until it was revealed. First by Conscience and then by Law.>>>

Is that not what I have been saying? Just different way.


No. We are born with sin nature, both in spirit and flesh.>>>CoreIssue

Yes, born in the flesh is a strike against us, but not if we don’t yield to its nature.

That is why we need the power of Jesus in us to overcome.

No. The child does not repeat the Fall. It is born fallen.>>>CoreIssue

You said it correctly in your quote above, but every child born must attain knowledge as it grows, the symbol for that is eating the fruit of it.
When it does, it finds itself naked and short of the glory of God.

Offered. Not given. Big difference in meaning.>>>CoreIssue

Given first, and then offered.

Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

That verse is in harmony with the whole plan of salvation.


It means God (Yahweh), not Father, saves. God Saves.>>>CoreIssue

Are we going to argue words, Father verses God?

Father God?


Jesus is actually a bad translation, coming through the Latin. It really should be Joshua.>>>CoreIssue


You know who Jesus is, right? The lamb, the Lion of Judah and many other names, but still it is the same Jesus.


Hmmm. From other things you said, do you believe in the Trinity? Meaning 3 personages in the unity of one God?>>>CoreIssue


Absolutely! No doubt in my mind and is woven in the pages of the whole bible.


'Within mankind as God' means what, exactly?>>>CoreIssue


Mankind as gods, small letter g, has anger towards God, unless that anger is dispelled with the knowledge of God’s love.
Mankind’s anger as a whole was demonstrated at the cross against Jesus, as if in saying, “we have crucified your Son”!

Free within limits. And subject to judgement and condemnation for eternity.>>>CoreIssue

You can say that because of not seeing the love of God as a fire.

Christ did not love with condition.>>>CoreIssue

You’re correct there! Unconditional!

He will still condemn people to eternity in the Lake for not repenting.>>>CoreIssue

Yes, as far as you understand it, but not as I do.

Am I detecting Universal Salvation, here?>>>CoreIssue

Yes you have! But not after receiving from God answers to my questions.

You see, I was a Jesus only believer and that everybody not thinking and believing as I did was going to hell.
That includes just about everybody not a Christian, even Christians like Catholics, Mormons etc.

But God delivered me from such thinking, by giving me understanding.
I can clearly see the picture of God’s works through Jesus, as I originally stated in my first post.

But, I’m not pushing it, but simply making this information available for those who would desire to know.

If what I say doesn’t fit, then discard it and be about your business as you understand it.

God knows our hearts, and that is all that is important to Him, for there is where life is born.

Peace>>>AJ

[roman8]

I am not nearly as studied as most on this site , but what you are saying doesnt make any sense to me .
If it is universal salvation. then why go on ? this world is not getting any better , why repent ? what use would the Holy Spirit be to us , if not to lead us into all truth ? What truth? If there is no battle for the soul , what are we waiting for ?

[CoreIssue]

For clarity of reading, something other than archaic English. Plus give the whole statement.>>>CoreIssue
Sorry, I missed highlighting the rest.
But the point was made I hope.

If you mean the reason for the need for salvation, yes.

Sorry, but when viewed with the rest of what you said, that simply cannot just be assumed.


Adam and Eve. Literally stated.>>>CoreIssue


If you wish

No wishing to it. Literally stated.

Parables, and such, in the Bible, are laid out as parables and such, then the meanings defined, literally.

Literal issues are stated literally, and no more.

This was literal.

And the rule of reading and interpretation is that unless stated to be figurative, known to be figurative, or must be figurative, it is literal.

Literal.>>>CoreIssue

Again, if they wish

Same answer.


No. No doubt. Who showed any doubt?>>>CoreIssue


Yes. I believe it literal. It has to be.
If Adam isn’t a literal man and there wasn’t a literal fall , then why would we literaly need a savior.>>>romans8

“It has to be?” Seems like doubt to me!

A definitive statement is not a statement of doubt.

It was a rhetorical statement with a definitive answer.


OK. Common sense and reasoning says that if it isn't literally, it is devoid of true meaning.>>>CoreIssue


Or, say, I wonder if there is more to it that what meets the eye, reasoning, which will drive us to seek further the meanings of scripture.

And all further references to Genesis, OT and NT, are literal.

To try to go elsewhere is grammatically and semantically unjustified. It demands forced read ins that have no support in the Bible.


Who says it is literal, to me, and the others.>>>CoreIssue


I won’t deny you that, for I too believed it too.

Believed, past tense. Meaning no longer believe so. A statement devoid of evidence.

That requires proof. Not assumption or conjecture.

It brought about both spiritual and physical death.>>>CoreIssue

If following the story of Adam and Eve, were they physical before the fall, and were they made perfect?

Physical and spiritual. Body of earth with spirit from God breathed into them. Literally stated.
They didn’t die while in the flesh, but after that knowledge was ingested. So the story goes.
They began the slow process of death. To cause death does not have to be instantaneous to be death.


No. We don't partake of the tree. That was a one time deal with long term effect, generation to generation.>>>CoreIssue


If that is the case you and I would have been born sinners, when yet, there was no sin to commit as an infant, let alone have knowledge.

False logic.

God created the potential for sin. To act upon the potential, by freewill, is to sin. The potenial is not.

All are born with sin nature, meaning a coruption that will cause us to sin.

An innocent sins, but is not a sinner, because they are not responsible.

Many sinned, according to the Law, before the Law was given. Thus they sinned, but were not sinners, because they were not responsible. Did not know it was sin.

But sin it still was.


Heaven. The child is innocent, thus not accountable for sin. Just as sin existed that had no condemnation, until it was revealed. First by Conscience and then by Law.>>>

Is that not what I have been saying? Just different way.

Not clear.

No. We are born with sin nature, both in spirit and flesh.>>>CoreIssue

Yes, born in the flesh is a strike against us, but not if we don’t yield to its nature.

Born with sinful spirits, as well.
That is why we need the power of Jesus in us to overcome.
Yep.

No. The child does not repeat the Fall. It is born fallen.>>>CoreIssue

You said it correctly in your quote above, but every child born must attain knowledge as it grows, the symbol for that is eating the fruit of it.

Only in part. We are all born with the Law of Conscience, which comes from the Tree, via Adam.
When it does, it finds itself naked and short of the glory of God.
Maturing enough to be aware of Consicence is enough to condemn. For, we will sin.
[
quote]Offered. Not given. Big difference in meaning.>>>CoreIssue

Given first, and then offered.
[/quote]
No, offered first.

Christ came and died so that all might live. But we must repent to be given it.
Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
26 He prays to God and finds favor with him,
he sees God's face and shouts for joy;
he is restored by God to his righteous state.
Prays and then receives. Offered and then taken.
That verse is in harmony with the whole plan of salvation.
Yes, salvation is by repentence through grace in faith.

It means God (Yahweh), not Father, saves. God Saves.>>>CoreIssue

Are we going to argue words, Father verses God?

Yep.

The Father role did not exist until the incarnation.

Christ is God incarnate in human flesh. Salvation is via God the Son, not God the Father.

Father God?
No. Father is but one personage of the God head. Son and Holy Spirit are not Father.


Jesus is actually a bad translation, coming through the Latin. It really should be Joshua.>>>CoreIssue


You know who Jesus is, right? The lamb, the Lion of Judah and many other names, but still it is the same Jesus.

Just dealing with your claimed meaning. No more.


Hmmm. From other things you said, do you believe in the Trinity? Meaning 3 personages in the unity of one God?>>>CoreIssue


Absolutely! No doubt in my mind and is woven in the pages of the whole bible.

Good. Then I strongly suggest you select your words more carefully. It appeared to not agree.


'Within mankind as God' means what, exactly?>>>CoreIssue


Mankind as gods, small letter g, has anger towards God, unless that anger is dispelled with the knowledge of God’s love.

I would suggest you dump that line. Doesn't help your points, at all.

Plus it takes more than knowledge. Many know of God and hate him even more in the knowing. Satan, fallen angels and demons know God as well, and they are damned.
Mankind’s anger as a whole was demonstrated at the cross against Jesus, as if in saying, “we have crucified your Son”!
You need to be clearer.

Yes, Man hates God.

Free within limits. And subject to judgement and condemnation for eternity.>>>CoreIssue

You can say that because of not seeing the love of God as a fire.

Fire, in the Bible, represents purifying, not love.

It can purify the saint, or purge the sinner from the earth and God's presence.

Christ did not love with condition.>>>CoreIssue

You’re correct there! Unconditional!

But it own't stop him from sending unrepentents to the Lake. Justice is the better description of God and Christ.

He will still condemn people to eternity in the Lake for not repenting.>>>CoreIssue

Yes, as far as you understand it, but not as I do.

Yea. Universal Salvation. I thought I remembered you.

Literally says he will.

Am I detecting Universal Salvation, here?>>>CoreIssue

Yes you have! But not after receiving from God answers to my questions.

You see, I was a Jesus only believer and that everybody not thinking and believing as I did was going to hell.
That includes just about everybody not a Christian, even Christians like Catholics, Mormons etc.

Yep. I am very familiar with Jesus Only.

And it is laced throughout your vocabulary.

So, you moved from one error to another.

But God delivered me from such thinking, by giving me understanding.
I can clearly see the picture of God’s works through Jesus, as I originally stated in my first post.

No. You are not seeing clearly.

But, I’m not pushing it, but simply making this information available for those who would desire to know.

Well, without literal proof, your doctrine is appealing to no one, here.

And you cannot give it, because the White Throne Judgment say many will spend eternity in the Lake. Just one example where the Bible refutes you.

If what I say doesn’t fit, then discard it and be about your business as you understand it.

God knows our hearts, and that is all that is important to Him, for there is where life is born.

Another error.

The heart is the most deceptive of things.

[CoreIssue]

I am not nearly as studied as most on this site , but what you are saying doesnt make any sense to me .
If it is universal salvation. then why go on ? this world is not getting any better , why repent ? what use would the Holy Spirit be to us , if not to lead us into all truth ? What truth? If there is no battle for the soul , what are we waiting for ?
Well said.

[a.baker]

Luke 13 Repent or Perish

[look3467]

It brought about both spiritual and physical death.>>>CoreIssue

The question was asked to indicate to me the condition prior to the fall, were they not made perfect, and would not they live forever?

If the answer is yes, then a baby is in the same condition, because there has been no fall.
If the baby dies, there is no accounting it for any sin, much less sins.

But when that baby grows towards maturity, it must gain knowledge of good and evil, unless that baby was born incapable of making a determination.

You see, a literal interpretation creation of mankind would place the beginning of mankind about 6 thousand years ago, and we both know that mankind has been around longer than that based on discoveries.

The intended point was that God created the first parents, as you like to put it, with potential to commit sin, but not before knowledge of it is ingested, or rather not before partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.


An innocent sins, but is not a sinner, because they are not responsible.>>> CoreIssue

Innocent and sins in the same sentence, is not a resonalbe answer, for to be innocent, is to be free of sin or sins.

If an innocent sins, then it is no more sinless, but guilty of the penalty of the kind that our parents Adam and Eve committed.

So which is it, innocent or ?


All are born with sin nature, meaning a corruption that will cause us to sin.>>>
CoreIssue



Born with the sin nature does not make one a sinner until sin is exercised. But until then, a baby is innocent (Sin free) where only the physical death is required.

Many sinned, according to the Law, before the Law was given. Thus they sinned, but were not sinners, because they were not responsible. Did not know it was sin.


But sin it still was.>>>
CoreIssue



You are correct in that respect. Why? Because knowledge was given according to the dealings of God, which brought about death, prior to the law as that was the sentence for knowledge.

The tree of knowledge is exactly what it means, knowledge. Without knowledge to any generation, to any people, would they know anything of God?
That is why it is mentioned at the beginning.

It sets the tone for redemption. Because of it redemption was needed, or else spiritual life would still be on hold, in prison, hell if you will.


Born with sinful spirits, as well.>>>
CoreIssue



Again, without knowledge there is no sin, spirit is innocent, perfect.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

“In the day” denotes a particular time, meaning in any generation that a child begins to digests knowledge eaten.

That is the day, or the time when sin is made accountable.

Given first, and then offered.>>>AJ


No, offered first.>>>
CoreIssue



Who made the move to save mankind? Man or God?

Therefore, salvation came to mankind first and offered to receive it.

The invitation is given because salvation has already been prepared: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Yea. Universal Salvation. I thought I remembered you.>>>
CoreIssue
Remembered me from where?
I just joined, unless you’ve been on other sites where I am or have been.

Anyways, I spare with you sort of speak, in that some reading will get an education from you or me as the Holy Spirit gives them guidance.

We both love Jesus and He is our Lord and Savior.

Blessings, AJ

[look3467]

Originally Posted by roman8
I am not nearly as studied as most on this site , but what you are saying doesnt make any sense to me .
If it is universal salvation. then why go on ? this world is not getting any better , why repent ? what use would the Holy Spirit be to us , if not to lead us into all truth ? What truth? If there is no battle for the soul , what are we waiting for ?

Allot of things don’t make sense until God gives us answers. Each; according to their desire to know and learn from God.

Universal salvation is not an old term because of the teachings of heaven and hell.
Hell was made a fearful place by the early church fathers so as to either keep the members or scare them into believing.

And some people need just that, scaring the hell out of them sort of speak.

But truly that is not what God wants, for He wants you, He wants to reside in the temple of your heart, there is His resting place.
Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Head meaning His kingdom referring to His church in the hearts of mankind.

The question you asked is one that many ask when confronted with the thought of universal salvation.
I don’t preach it, but its there.

What God wants is your heart! If He gets your heart, would you want to displease Him?
Would you want to continue sinning because grace doeth more abound?

The law was such that we must have kept it or have perished, and the case was that we were going to perish if it were not for God’s Son.

That sentence then passed unto ALL mankind.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

… “death passed upon all men”…

And: Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
… “hath concluded all under sin”…

So there were none righteous, regardless a priest or not.

The opposite is true: Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many here denotes a selected few, but in terms of all, all are concluded under sin and all will be made righteous for every knee shall bow at Jesus feet.

Jesus than came to save ALL mankind from that condition.

He did it, finished it and now it is in place.

Now it is offered to all who would come, the invitation is out.

Our quest: is to share the love of Jesus as we live a life begun here for all eternity.

I didn’t come to my conclusions with no reason at all, but through desire to know more than what was thought, for there were many unanswered questions that traditional beliefs could not answer.

Yes, I am alone with my beliefs, but yet I am at peace. For I now know how God loves mankind and is more than what I ever learned in my up bringing.

But not wasted, since it was my 101 course, and now I believe I’ve matured to a point that God allows me to.

I presently deal in two other talk forums, one a Catholic and the other a Canadian forum.
There are atheist that I talk to besides a priest that comes on.
I love them all, as God loves them all.

Peace>>>AJ

[a.baker]

But without some fear of God than why wouldn't people repent? Repentance is so important that its talked of numerous of times in the bible. In revelations that is Gods biggest problem with the seven Churches is people not repenting. Being judge on for what we do not know? Of course not. God is about justice as well and you can't be judge on something you never of known of because that in turn would not be justice. Yes of course babies and small children go to Heaven. The question than with that would be where does God draw the line for a person no longer being a child of man in the flesh; puberty, age, or maturity? I would say Knowledge of His Word which I am sure thats what you are trying to say... But what happens when someone heard of God and Jesus and the bible but has totally found no interest in ever learning it or listening? I would assume thats rejection of what is being offered to you and one will be judge on that decision of rejecting His Word in some way. What about one living in an isolated part of the world and have never of even heard of the name God or Jesus and never even knew what a book was let alone the bible? I would than assume God couldn't judge them because they were not knowing. Innocent so to speak.

[CoreIssue]

Look, you are repeating yourself. Not replying to what I said.

Don't do that. It is preaching and does not fly here.
Genesis 8
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%208:21&version=31#fen-NIV-205a)] every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

John 5
[ 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

If your claims were true not every child would grow up to sin. Some would resist.

But it is universal. No exception.

And you dismiss Conscience, that Law implanted in our hearts, as Paul tells us in Romans.

Deal with those facts.

As well as Paul says the issue is accountability.
Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.



Allot of things don’t make sense until God gives us answers. Each; according to their desire to know and learn from God.

Don't go down the road of the Holy Spirit told me. Show it in the Bible. Prove it.

Universal salvation is not an old term because of the teachings of heaven and hell.
Hell was made a fearful place by the early church fathers so as to either keep the members or scare them into believing.

The Bible says the Lake is a place of fire and eternal punishment.
Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Revelation 20
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I didn’t come to my conclusions with no reason at all, but through desire to know more than what was thought, for there were many unanswered questions that traditional beliefs could not answer.

Yes, I am alone with my beliefs, but yet I am at peace. For I now know how God loves mankind and is more than what I ever learned in my up bringing.

But not wasted, since it was my 101 course, and now I believe I’ve matured to a point that God allows me to.
The answers are in the Bible. You don't like them.

You have to either deny the Bible or deny what it literally says to get your thinking.

That is relying on your personal desire, not what is said.

You practice Shopping Cart Theology. Pull a few verses out of context, put your spin on them and then disregard the rest.

Not healthy. And practiced by many cult members.

[look3467]

But without some fear of God than why wouldn't people repent? Repentance is so important that its talked of numerous of times in the bible. In revelations that is Gods biggest problem with the seven Churches is people not repenting. Being judge on for what we do not know? Of course not. God is about justice as well and you can't be judge on something you never of known of because that in turn would not be justice. Yes of course babies and small children go to Heaven. >>>a.baker


Repentance is a change of mind; A renewing of your mind, and or a transforming of your mind from the former way of thinking to the new way of thinking.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So what it really is, is to accept this new way of thinking which brought about by knowledge of the tree of life, being Jesus.
There is the tree of knowledge of Good and evil which we partake in our former minds, and than there is the tree of life which we can partake giving us life in Jesus.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

… “renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him”…

God wants us to love Him, not demand we love Him.

That is why love is generated in the heart, while demands are an outward force unwillingly, accepted. Fear?

Fear the Lord is respecting the Lord, loving the Lord where love is willing and not forced.



The question than with that would be where does God draw the line for a person no longer being a child of man in the flesh; puberty, age, or maturity? I would say Knowledge of His Word which I am sure that’s what you are trying to say... But what happens when someone heard of God and Jesus and the bible but has totally found no interest in ever learning it or listening?>>> >>>a.baker


Based on what work Jesus came to accomplish has nothing to do with our personal behavior.
Let me explain: What was needed that mankind could not provide is righteousness, the kind that can only be Gods.
Therefore, no human flesh could be righteous enough to meet Gods standard unless God is in them providing His righteousness.

The bible speaks of our righteousness being as filthy rags, so it doesn’t matter how we behave or don’t behave, it does not have a direct bearing on God’s righteousness.

There can be believers, and non believers, good people, bad people; we are all lumped into the same lump of clay as Romans 9:20 states.

So what God is asking us to do, is to repent, change of mind from the former ways to the new, for the new is where life is found.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


I would assume thats rejection of what is being offered to you and one will be judge on that decision of rejecting His Word in some way. What about one living in an isolated part of the world and have never of even heard of the name God or Jesus and never even knew what a book was let alone the bible? I would than assume God couldn't judge them because they were not knowing. Innocent so to speak.>>>a.baker


That was one of my greatest concerns, and one which I shed tears over. Knowing what I know about God’s love, I could not believe God would destroy forever souls that He did not provide knowledge to.

I sought out an answer from Him, and He gave me the answer that satisfied my heart ache.

Yes, innocent is correct, for the purposes of eternal life, but not innocent for personal accountability to humanity.

He said, whatever we sow, we shall reap.

If you think about it, there is now sowing or reaping in heaven, is there?

I believe that a sign of maturing is in questioning the things of God and requesting answers as He has promised to provide.

I believe you shall find answers; keep your foundation, Jesus Christ, and forge forward without fear, for He watches over you knowing you are seeking to know more about Him.

Peace>>>AJ

[CoreIssue]

You didn't answer a.bakers question about consequences of not repenting.

You just repeated your sermon.

Verses were posted to you showing eternal damnation in the Lake. Please deal with them and allow challenges before you move on.

CTZ is not a platform for you preaching Universal Salvation.

You have had verses poste, to you, from Revelation and Romans, in example, showing eternal punishment in the Lake.

I want to see proofs, from the NT backing your claims of being born perfect, in the spirit, our eating of the tree of knowledge and life and Universal Salvation.

Not spun claims.

Deal with the verses posted to you.

While Christ died for all, not all will accept.

If I bring 100 gifts to 100 people, but only 80 accept theirs, it does not negate I gave to all. But not all accepted.

John 6
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

You are not reconciling all that is said.

And it can be done literally:
1. God loves all.
2. Christ died for all.
3. It is a gift, all who accept will be saved.
4. Those that do not will go to the lake.

No one argues the verse that say God loves all and Christ died for all.

But you are wrong in saying they mean all are saved. You are not dealing with points 3 & 4.

Universal Salvationists try to escape them with totally non-literal readings and interpretations.

Problem is you cannot prove your case.

Saying the Holy Spirit told you proves nothing. The Holy Spirit and the literal Bible reject your doctrine. They will not disagree with each other.

Verses have been posted declaring eternal condemnation and punishment.

You have been challenged, so you need to deal with those verses.

Don't just keep preaching. This is a discussion and debate board. Please abide by the rules.

[look3467]

Don't do that. It is preaching and does not fly here.>>> CoreIssue

I apologize if I am, not meant to preach but to engage in conversation new information that might be helpful to some.

These are tuff issues and in which information is not readily available through standard channels.

So here is an opportunity to listen to an objective view and make a decision whether it’s something one would like to engage in.


If your claims were true not every child would grow up to sin. Some would resist.>>> CoreIssue


Common sense here is to understand that knowledge of good and evil has to be first understood in order for the child to become accountable.

But what I am talking about is that the works for salvation have already been taken care of by Christ.

This frees us up from that burden.

So, the only burden left for us is to overcome this world by the righteousness of Christ.
Whatever we sow, at what ever age it is, we are accountable for our own misdeeds.


But it is universal. No exception.

And you dismiss Conscience, that Law implanted in our hearts, as Paul tells us in Romans.

Deal with those facts.>>> CoreIssue


From what I gathered from studying many of the worlds religions, the common thread in all of them is a conscience.

The degree of conscience depends on what knowledge is available to the individual to compare with.

Take for instance a primitive tribe deep in the forests of Africa, having no knowledge of God, much less Jesus, have within themselves a spark of Conscience that makes them know that there is something greater than themselves, call it whatever they deem it is, yet they honor it by some kind of sacrifice.

Tell, me, by what you know of God, are these folks going to eternal separation never to see God?

Wouldn’t you want to know the answer to it by shear compassion?

The bible says this about all those not knowing the law of the Jews: Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The rest of the world then are a law unto themselves, until someone is able to share with them Christ.
But they are all covered under the blood of Christ, for it is no fault of their own that they are who they are and what they believe.


The Bible says the Lake is a place of fire and eternal punishment.>>> CoreIssue

I will not comment on this one because it is a whole other issue, perhaps on another thread?

The answers are in the Bible. You don't like them.

You have to either deny the Bible or deny what it literally says to get your thinking.

That is relying on your personal desire, not what is said.

You practice Shopping Cart Theology. Pull a few verses out of context, put your spin on them and then disregard the rest.


Not healthy. And practiced by many cult members.>>> CoreIssue


What was the motive for the coming of Jesus? Was it love? Or, was it to come and save only those who acknowledged Him?

Did He not say: Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

What was lost? All of humanity; that’s right all of humanity!
Is then all of humanity is lost, and Jesus came to save that which was lost, then, all of humanity is predestined to be saved.

Does it not also say: Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

Our works are ours, and we are judged by our works. Work can only be done on earth, so our works are tried here while we’re here, because after death, we belong to Christ, who saves that which was lost.

You may judge my beliefs, your free to do so, but I am not free to judge yours, for I am commanded to love my neighbor, for they are souls purchased with the blood of Christ.

My love for Christ has never been greater than now!

Peace>>>AJ

[CoreIssue]

OK. You refuse to deal with the refutations and preached again.
Warning 1
Answer the verses and challenges put to you. With LITERAL proofs. Not more declarations of common sense and logic, which they are not.

Provide PROOF, literal PROOF to back your claims.

No more preaching. We are not interested in baseless assumption and imaginations.

Post PROOFS.

[look3467]

OK. You refuse to deal with the refutations and preached again.
Warning 1
Answer the verses and challenges put to you. With LITERAL proofs. Not more declarations of common sense and logic, which they are not.

Provide PROOF, literal PROOF to back your claims.

No more preaching. We are not interested in baseless assumption and imaginations.

Post PROOFS.


OK, I know when to backout.
Well, thanks for the short stay.
May God bless you all richly in wisdom as your spirit prospers.
In the love of Christ, See ya!;)

[CoreIssue]

OK. You refuse to deal with the refutations and preached again.
Warning 1
Answer the verses and challenges put to you. With LITERAL proofs. Not more declarations of common sense and logic, which they are not.

Provide PROOF, literal PROOF to back your claims.

No more preaching. We are not interested in baseless assumption and imaginations.

Post PROOFS.


OK, I know when to backout.
Well, thanks for the short stay.
May God bless you all richly in wisdom as your spirit prospers.
In the love of Christ, See ya!;)
I take that as an admission you have to literal proof. Purely either by your own devices or you think the the Holy Spirit told you?

Correct?

Problem with that is the Bible is not of secret interpretation. No 'elite' who get meanings no one else can find because the are codes, not literal words.

Nor does the Holy Spirit reveal new truths that contradict the Bible.

The Bible gives use ways to test. Commands us to test, against the scriptures, not the hearing from the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Holy Spirit guides our studies. No, he doesn't give 'more mature' Christians special revelation. That is Gnosis.