Jekyll and Hyde religion

[kay-gee]

Do you remember the old adage, you can talk about anything you want here except politics or religion? Whenever I heard that, I would think, well there goes my two favourite things. I will be reduced to making mundane small-talk for the duration of this social engagement. Have you ever wondered why that is so? What is there about talking about the very thing that is most precious to us (our faith) that brings out this brutal side of our natures. I will refer to this as Jekyll and Hyde syndrome. Before I go any further, let me say that I am as guilty as anyone in these matters. I began this thread with the hopes of getting to the bottom of this disease in our natures. I am by most standards, a fairly cool guy. easy natured etc... But as soon as someone categorizes me religously or politically I feel an assault on my person and character. Suddenly, as a lion released from a cage, I want to come out slashing. This in turn brings out the fangs and claws of the other person. In a short time any hope of meaningfull discussion is gone. As many of you know I was barred from CTZ, for this very reason. I felt trapped and mis-interpeted so I defended myself with underhanded slurs against others. My wife says that I always do this. Believe me I had no idea, of the hurt I caused. This has to stop. Its dross that must be removed from the character. Jesus taught that we have to live ABOVE our very natures. Basic human-ness says to hurt when you're being hurt. Any one can act that way, but we've all been called to a higher standard. Lets all just try to stop the fighting and accusations and the judging. Even if you don't agree with someones point, return to them gently. That is what separates GOOD teachers from mediocre ones. The discussion continues and things get learned. People we gotta stop getting our nickers in a knot about some of these things. If I'm amill and or premill or whatever, so what, the Lord is going to do what He is going to do according to HIs plan regardless of you and me! I have zero in common with Jehovah Witnesses, But I try to treat them more cordially than some of the conduct I've seen on this forum of late. There is no room in the Christian heart for hatred, Anger, bitterness. Non what-so-ever. Zero!! Period. Don't believe me?, re-read the entire NT! Scarcely one epistle does not codemn this sort of thing. When we act this way, it totally destroys our witness. They say Christian-dom is the only army that shoots it's own generals. Maybe it's true! In closing, let me borrow some lyrics from an old pop song: C'MON EVERYBODY, SMILE ON YOUR BROTHER, ALL TRY TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER RIGHT NOW! ...All the best.............

[CoreIssue]

We all loose our cool, at times, for sure.

Maintaining balance is the hardest of all things to do.

We are to love our enemies while not being fools who throw pearls before swine. We are to be embracing and understanding while staunchly defending sound doctrine. We are to be patient with other but understand when to shake the dust from our feet and move one. We are to embrace others in fellowship but know when to cast them out.

Balance is hard. Too much either direction is error, and destructive.

Being human makes it even harder on us. We are so flawed and our flesh is our enemy, making the whole of the issues even worse.

Perfection? Not going to come from me.

Not ruffling feathers at times? That also means we get nothing done.

What can I say?:crazy:

[kay-gee]

I have to begin to view anger as any other sin or addiction. I believe that it can be addressed and overcome in ones own life. Why not? We give up drinking, smoking,etc...For many many years I did not see it this way. I sluffed off my temper as being hereditary. Irish temper I called it. Dad had it. Grand-dad had it. Seemed like anyone related to me, had it in varying degrees more or less. Oh well, Thats just me, I would say to any one who had the occasion to witness one of my fits of rage. I once beat a VW engine to pieces with a sledge hammer because I could'nt make one bolt fit. Absolute non-sense! Bible calls it sin! Gal 5:20 It is enough to keep me out of Gods kingdom (vs21). So deal with it! As a vital part of my big life make-over, I'm cleaning house and getting rid of the junk that creates these feelings of rage. I'm learning to deal with each one in the same way as one deals with a single smoking urge when they have quit. This forum is so helpful because I'm writing this stuff out for all to see. By Gods grace I shall overcome!........All the best............

[CoreIssue]

I have to begin to view anger as any other sin or addiction. I believe that it can be addressed and overcome in ones own life. Why not? We give up drinking, smoking,etc...For many many years I did not see it this way. I sluffed off my temper as being hereditary. Irish temper I called it. Dad had it. Grand-dad had it. Seemed like anyone related to me, had it in varying degrees more or less. Oh well, Thats just me, I would say to any one who had the occasion to witness one of my fits of rage. I once beat a VW engine to pieces with a sledge hammer because I could'nt make one bolt fit. Absolute non-sense! Bible calls it sin! Gal 5:20 It is enough to keep me out of Gods kingdom (vs21). So deal with it! As a vital part of my big life make-over, I'm cleaning house and getting rid of the junk that creates these feelings of rage. I'm learning to deal with each one in the same way as one deals with a single smoking urge when they have quit. This forum is so helpful because I'm writing this stuff out for all to see. By Gods grace I shall overcome!........All the best............
Hmmmm. And yet God has wrath and gets angry.

A time to love, a time to hate.

Righteous anger.

I agree all anger is not good. But neither is forgiveness without repentence.

It is a big time struggle for sure. Not only in controlling it but getting the balance correct.:not:

[kay-gee]

Hi. I see as a common theme on many of the threads here particularly dealing with occult or the New Age movements, we are critical of people who seek such. I have watched threads criticizing every one from Freemasons to Knights of Columbus to whoever. Could it possibly be that we "Christians" do such a lousy job at presenting the faith that we drive folks away? We talk up a big storm about the Gospel then when We get a fish on the line we show them our worst side. Quarreling among ourselves about petty doctrinal issues. A fresh heart looking for God and not knowing the basics must be terrified to see all these arguments about pre this and post that, Tribbers, non tribbers etc...I would'nt blame a new-comer as viewing this as little more than organized confusion! We need less Bible thumping and more listening. More students and less teachers.(James3:1) I have decided to become non-evangelical. Yes we are commanded to preach the gospel. I know that, but leave that to the professional preachers that are studied and have the gifts for that. The rest of us should concentrate on being "presenters" of the faith. Live such a Christ-like life that folks can't help but notice. When they want to know about your faith, be ready!(1Peter3:15). In short, I believe we could all use a big dose of humility! All the best.........

[Sid]

So I guess that we should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gifaround the campfire?

Where there is no sound doctrine, there can be peace, tolerance and love.

But Jesus came to bring a sword.

[CoreIssue]

Hi. I see as a common theme on many of the threads here particularly dealing with occult or the New Age movements, we are critical of people who seek such. I have watched threads criticizing every one from Freemasons to Knights of Columbus to whoever.
Because these people present themselves a Christian, when they are not.

Should we stand by and let people be lied to.

If we don't speak up, who will?
Could it possibly be that we "Christians" do such a lousy job at presenting the faith that we drive folks away?
There are those that do that, big.

Saw a guy standing on a highway median with the old Going to Hell billboard around his neck.

That is not only a lousy way to do it, but a destructive way to do it.
We talk up a big storm about the Gospel then when We get a fish on the line we show them our worst side. Quarreling among ourselves about petty doctrinal issues.
Petty?

And how does anyone learn that is not allowed to question others? How does one grow in sanctification if they are not allowed to be challenged?

Yes, our human natures can react strongly to challenge, but is that a sign of being petty or of strong beliefs?

Should we let those, like the RCC, in example, tell people all the works, rituals and such they have to do to be saved and not get denounce it as not Gospel?
A fresh heart looking for God and not knowing the basics must be terrified to see all these arguments about pre this and post that, Tribbers, non tribbers etc...I would'nt blame a new-comer as viewing this as little more than organized confusion!
A seeker really does not belong in such a forum.

Yes, curiosity will draw them.

But, is it a good or bad thing to see such issues are cut and dry? That they do need careful consideration?

I don't see it as confusion. I see it as earnest discussion and seeking, except for those into cult or near cult doctrines. All they are interested in is destructive preaching.

In the confusion one who is truly seeking truth, not to feel good about it, will learn and grow.
We need less Bible thumping and more listening. More students and less teachers.(James3:1) I have decided to become non-evangelical.
I am not an evangelical, but the generic use of the term. I don't like that approach.

Too legalistic.
Yes we are commanded to preach the gospel.
Which Gospel? The one that is By Grace Alone? The one By Works? The one demanding you agree with their every doctrine or else?
I know that, but leave that to the professional preachers that are studied and have the gifts for that.
You mean like those trained in the RCC Seminaries? The liberal denominations who reject sin and even Hell?

Fully trained and don't have a clue what the Bible says.
The rest of us should concentrate on being "presenters" of the faith. Live such a Christ-like life that folks can't help but notice. When they want to know about your faith, be ready!(1Peter3:15). In short, I believe we could all use a big dose of humility! All the best.........
So, if one does not have a title they are not qualified?

Does one have to go to a denominational college to know what they are talking about?

Where did the early preachers and such go to get their degrees? AI guess they were not qualified to preach?

Show me in the Bible where it says one must attend a formal school to be a preacher? It doesn't.

The biggest problem with Christianity is the let the other guy handle it syndrome, I believe.

Too many bench warmers and not enough players on the field.

[Jessie]

Kaygee I agree with core.

and too being a Christian its really important to get it right and learn right.

being a real christian is not easy. I think the world thinks we are to be these
happy go lucky people who get these gift wrapped presents that just float down to us.
never angry, never sad, its all what the world wants the here and now.
no idea of what it means for eternity.

the early christians and still today were martyred.

and of the confusion issue.
I have been growing out of confusion here as I have learned on this board.
which is a big relief!

[kay-gee]

Sid, Those little smilie things singing Kumbaya totally crack me up! How did you do that? All the best..........

[Sid]

Those little smilie things singing Kumbaya totally crack me up! How did you do that? All the best..........


kay-gee:

Right click on just about any image and you will find copy image location.

. . . and it will give you this:

http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gif


But you have to c'np it to the little box that looks likes a scenic of two mountains and you get this:


http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gif

[kay-gee]

Perhaps it's time to start departmentalizing. Like a filing cabinet. Keep your religion on file until it is asked for. If you always wear the Bible at the end of your sleeves, it is too easy to start swinging with it like an axe. Clubbing people into the ground with the Bible has never been an effective way to win converts. The Bible even refers to itself as a "sword". It appears that there are too many of us that just can't wait to start swinging! Where is the line drawn between demonstrating our own biblical prowess and the genuine concern for the souls of the people that we encounter? Let's all take a lesson from the Pharisees. The actual sect may be gone but the spirit of it is live and well. Instead lets try to wear the invisible Christ on our sleeves. That goes miles further with the lost than our endless prattling away about "sound doctrine" and this and that and blah, blah, blah. Start em off with a nice glass of warm milk. There is lots of time for T-bone steak (doctrine). Help me here folks. I'm trying to be constructive in coming up with ways we can all be better communicators in matters of faith........All the best..............

[CoreIssue]

Boy, do you have it figured out wrong!

On CTZ the forums IS about doctrine and learning.

Which has nothing to do with how we approach others in our daily lives.

If you think I, in example, go around spouting Bible at everyone, you need to think again.

There are far more effective ways than that to impact others to where they want to learn. ;)

[kay-gee]

So, you're not always like this? Alright man, cool. So if we were ever to meet up, You wouldn't want to kick my amill you know what?!! Curious, nothing to do with this topic. Did you serve in Vietnam?........All the best............

[CoreIssue]

So, you're not always like this? Alright man, cool. So if we were ever to meet up, You wouldn't want to kick my amill you know what?!! Curious, nothing to do with this topic. Did you serve in Vietnam?........All the best............
This is a debate, discussion and fellowship board. Of course I am like this here!

Not in Nam, I did intelligence support for Nam, among other 'issues.'

[kay-gee]

I just figured by your age that you would have been Vietnam era. I was putting 2 and 2 together. No reason really. I've never really talked with a Nam vet. It bothers me to think that all I know about it was what I'm exposed to through media and movies. Back then, I was a bit too young to have any sense of reality. All that mattered in those days was smoking up and rock music. I now know what a waste it was. Anyways the past is past. I've taken a hold of the plow and must keep looking forward. I'm still pondering on the question of why do politics and religion bring out the worst in us. Why do I feel personally affronted when people challenge my dearly held beliefs. The same applies to all walks of faith, I think. Whether you are amill, premill, RCC, JW whatever, it's the same. Have you ever taken the finger from a driver on the hi-way, with a "LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker? What's that all about? It plays right into this thing I'm calling Jekyll and Hyde syndrome.A whole heapin' dose of humility would do us some good, myself included. I desire with all my heart to follow in the footsteps of the master. I need to be a little more Jekyll and a lot less Hyde!!!! Anyone got any ideas on this?........All the best.............

[CoreIssue]

I just figured by your age that you would have been Vietnam era. I was putting 2 and 2 together. No reason really. I've never really talked with a Nam vet. It bothers me to think that all I know about it was what I'm exposed to through media and movies. Back then, I was a bit too young to have any sense of reality. All that mattered in those days was smoking up and rock music. I now know what a waste it was. Anyways the past is past.
I can tell you, for a fact, that 80% of what you heard on the news was propoganda, from all sides.

I know what happened.
I've taken a hold of the plow and must keep looking forward. I'm still pondering on the question of why do politics and religion bring out the worst in us. Why do I feel personally affronted when people challenge my dearly held beliefs. The same applies to all walks of faith, I think. Whether you are amill, premill, RCC, JW whatever, it's the same.
Because it is dealing with the very heart on who we are. How much deeper into our being could one get?
Have you ever taken the finger from a driver on the hi-way, with a "LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker? What's that all about? It plays right into this thing I'm calling Jekyll and Hyde syndrome.A whole heapin' dose of humility would do us some good, myself included. I desire with all my heart to follow in the footsteps of the master. I need to be a little more Jekyll and a lot less Hyde!!!! Anyone got any ideas on this?........All the best.............
I know what you mean there.

On the counter point, have you ever noticed those into love all, accept all, be tolerant, are so EXCEPT for Bible believers?

We are humans. So we are a mess, by nature.

[kay-gee]

I read a USA TODAY article that Sid posted today on the topic of people being restless in faith and church hopping and so on. It just re-iterated what I've been saying here so I'm adding this post to Jekyll and Hyde. The question went out as to why so many people were moving from church to church. The replies were fairly civil for about a page so I read on. By about the end of 2 pages the forum had become a war zone for folks firing scriptures and tearing up the LDS's and the 7days and whatever. Agnostic posters were commenting on how quickly the topic had de-railed and were making fun of Christians for their obvious dis-unity. Even I was apolled at so-called God's people being unable to stick to basic question and not quarrelling. SHAME on us. People, we have to get past this! No wonder we're the laughing stock of the secular world! Shape up and get it right and stop using Christs name to endorse your prideful, hateful attitudes towards others. And please stop pounding the "sound doctrine" drum. It's wearing thin. Seeing the percieved error in the doctrine of others is not a license for this kind of behaviour. If you feel it is, then I'm sorry...You have already swallowed the camel...........All the best..........

[Jessie]

oh my,
sound doctrine is of utmost importance. otherwise one can end up like I did in a mess.

you have NO idea of wof hell. I mean that literally.

the bible warned us and we are to watch and understand.

I thank the Lord for Core and those here that sound doctrine was important too,
and has gone well outta their way, people I've never met to help me...

[CoreIssue]

I read a USA TODAY article that Sid posted today on the topic of people being restless in faith and church hopping and so on. It just re-iterated what I've been saying here so I'm adding this post to Jekyll and Hyde. The question went out as to why so many people were moving from church to church. The replies were fairly civil for about a page so I read on. By about the end of 2 pages the forum had become a war zone for folks firing scriptures and tearing up the LDS's and the 7days and whatever.
Because the LDS are not Christians. They are a cult posing as Christians.

Plus the Adventists are fringe Christians at the very best. Very unsound doctrines based on the teachings of a woman with serious medical problems that 'had visions from God.'

One should discuss and debate civilly. I agree on that, for sure.
[QUOTE]Agnostic posters were commenting on how quickly the topic had de-railed and were making fun of Christians for their obvious dis-unity.
Which brings up the issue of the liars who call themselves Agnostic.

A true Agnostic is seeking answers. They would read and think. Not attack.

We have had so-called Agnostics on here. Most turned out to be die hard Atheists.
Even I was apolled at so-called God's people being unable to stick to basic question and not quarrelling.
Depends on how you define Christian.

If you include LDS, then your definition is way to loose.
SHAME on us.
Unfortunately true way too often.

But PC silence and huggy kissy is not an answer either.
People, we have to get past this!
Without sound doctrine and a willingness to discuss honestly, that isn't going to happen.

Our biggest enemy is the denominations. They presever division.
No wonder we're the laughing stock of the secular world! Shape up and get it right and stop using Christs name to endorse your prideful, hateful attitudes towards others. And please stop pounding the "sound doctrine" drum. It's wearing thin.
Actually, God commanded us to defend sound doctrine and correct and rebuke error.'

Your PC thinking is no sound doctrine.

Did you ever stop to think the answer is not embracing all thinking, right or wrong, for unity? But getting it actually correct to a minimal of differences?

Many differences are not to divide or argue over.

But many of the foundational issues ARE what is being argued over.
Seeing the percieved error in the doctrine of others is not a license for this kind of behaviour. If you feel it is, then I'm sorry...You have already swallowed the camel...........All the best..........
Perceived error?

LDS is not perceived error. RCC is not perceived error.

It is anti-Biblical error.

Again, we should be able to discuss without division. I agree.

But silence to not have argument is the grossest of error. It brings in the itching ears we were warned would be in these End Times.

Just tell us pleasing things. We don't want the truth.

That is the mantra of many.

[kay-gee]

I'm not saying that sound doctrine is not important. It would be foolish of me to say other wise. I'm talking more about the delivery. If we just start whacking away at each other we are not helping any body, least of all the cause of Christ. I've come to notice something when it comes to religion, everybodies doctrine is sound doctrine in their own eyes. No need to discuss, just flail away. The one most bloodied loses. My scripture verse says this so that blows your scripture verse outta the water. How dare you believe that. Are you an idiot? These seem to be the way Christians are talking about their doctrines. I'm just trying to point out that if this keeps up we will surely lose the battle. We are told to be shrewd as serpants but GENTLE AS DOVES!....all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

I'm not saying that sound doctrine is not important. It would be foolish of me to say other wise. I'm talking more about the delivery. If we just start whacking away at each other we are not helping any body, least of all the cause of Christ. I've come to notice something when it comes to religion, everybodies doctrine is sound doctrine in their own eyes. No need to discuss, just flail away. The one most bloodied loses. My scripture verse says this so that blows your scripture verse outta the water. How dare you believe that. Are you an idiot? These seem to be the way Christians are talking about their doctrines. I'm just trying to point out that if this keeps up we will surely lose the battle. We are told to be shrewd as serpants but GENTLE AS DOVES!....all the best.........
I am not arguing there are people who do it wrong. They do.

But error the other way is just as bad.

[kay-gee]

Cool! At this point then it becomes the personal responsability of each one of us to get it right. Nuff said.......all the best...........

[kay-gee]

I personally believe that demoninational-ism is the biggest factor in the non-effectiveness of the Christian faith in drawing converts. Always believed that. Always will believe that. I believe that the true church exists and interested parties can seek it out even today and allow Christ to add them to His body, as on the day of Pentacost. I made my decision long ago to be in that number. I have no desire to be any-where else, but at the same time, I refuse to close my mind to others. I must give audience (and a fair one) to any one to see if they are preaching a truth that I have overlooked or neglected. I test what they say at that point by the bible, then accept or refute. In other words I am always seeking for truth. I can never be so arragant as to say: I know everything there is to know and cannot be taught anything. In my journey,I have encountered all kinds of teachings by all kinds of folks and groups. I don't agree with much of the doctrine, because of my testing of it against scripture. Now having said that, I will never give anyone less then the human digity they deserve, regardless of what they believe. I cannot find it in my heart to degrade or belittle someone of a faith I don't personally share. I hope for the same consideration of others who don't share mine. Its a simple matter of doing onto others as you would have them do on to you. If anyone answers this post with more business about "sound doctrine", then there is a communication problem, and the point of what I have just said, is totally missed again as per usual! Develop the ability to listen to the heart. We will all be the better for it ...all the best....

[CoreIssue]

Your points are understood and well taken.

One can disagree with another without degrading or belittling another.

Problem is, in the PC environment in the US and even moreso in Cananda, just the act of disagreeing is seen as degrading or belittling.

[kay-gee]

Right on Bro!............all the best.......

[kay-gee]

Back home, I am PC, here I am FNM.........all the best............

[CoreIssue]

Back home, I am PC, here I am FNM.........all the best............
What does the FNM Party believe in?

[kay-gee]

Good evening Core. PC = Progressive Conservative

FNM = Freedom National Movement
I believe they are similar to republican (conservative) in founding principles. Around here the political scene is a little fuzzy. I cannot vote but my wife can. The election is tommorow. All the best....

[kay-gee]

Folks take their elections real serious around here. Practically every citizen wears a T-shirt in their party colours. Lots of hootin' and hollerin'. Too bad, a lot of booze flowing too. This morning I arrived at the bank about 10 minutes early and through the doors I saw the employees having a prayer circle in the middle of the bank. I thought to myself, wow!, how unique is that? One of the things of love about our island.........all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Sorry to be sceptical so much.

But what kind of prayer group?

See so many WoF and such any more.

[kay-gee]

I don't know, but likely just generic praying before the work day starts. I don't think there is any of that WOF stuff here. However, there are many congregations of a denom called "Church of God of Prophesy". What can you tell me about these guys?...all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I don't know, but likely just generic praying before the work day starts. I don't think there is any of that WOF stuff here. However, there are many congregations of a denom called "Church of God of Prophesy". What can you tell me about these guys?...all the best...
That you have an old style Pentecostal denomination there.

WoF comes from such.

Beliefs. (http://cogop.org/about/truths.html)

[kay-gee]

Interesting. They claim to be Pre-Trib. That should appeal to you. How many right things should a group hit upon to be acceptable? At any rate, what would these guys have in common with WOF? What prayers do WOF pray? PS I just gotta know. What does LOL mean? I see it so often in peoples posts..all the best.....

[InTheWind]

LOL, Laughing out loud. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Interesting. They claim to be Pre-Trib. That should appeal to you.
Catholicism is Amill. That should appeal to you. ;)
How many right things should a group hit upon to be acceptable?
Study up on what WoF believes. Then you can answer that question for yourself concerning them.:nod:
[/quote]At any rate, what would these guys have in common with WOF? What prayers do WOF pray? PS I just gotta know. What does LOL mean? I see it so often in peoples posts..all the best.....[/quote]
LOL = lots of laughs, among other things.

Read and answer for yourself. (http://christiantalkzone.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=118)

[kay-gee]

Dosen't sound like the same group at all. RCC did keep SOME of the apostles original teachings in tact. Where they get into trouble is adding too many traditions to the liturgy.
all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Dosen't sound like the same group at all. RCC did keep SOME of the apostles original teachings in tact. Where they get into trouble is adding too many traditions to the liturgy.
all the best.........
Really? Like what, on the RCC?

As for the WoF, it shares a ton with Pentecostalism. It IS a form of Pentecostalism.

[kay-gee]

Sometimes I get so frustrated I can't sleep at night. I do not want to lash out at anybody. That is what I preach against. What can I do when someone says something that blatantly contradicts a clear bible teaching. And to make matters worse, they are held as one with some biblical weight. This is exactly why I don't particularly want to be a teacher. The responsibility is great. Oh well I should go to bed and try to get over it for tonight...............all the best.......

[CoreIssue]

Sometimes I get so frustrated I can't sleep at night. I do not want to lash out at anybody. That is what I preach against. What can I do when someone says something that blatantly contradicts a clear bible teaching. And to make matters worse, they are held as one with some biblical weight. This is exactly why I don't particularly want to be a teacher. The responsibility is great. Oh well I should go to bed and try to get over it for tonight...............all the best.......
Lashing out accomplishes nothing, most of the time.

But, there are times when it is good and needed to do. Which is Biblical.

The idea one should never raise their voice, get mad, get strict and such cannot be found in the Bible.

The Apostles taught to listen to all, test what they say against the Bible and accept if good and reject if bad.

It says if someone is in error, work with them to correct that error.

If in gross sinful error, and they refuse to change, treat them as unsaved.

MOST issues of error are not gross error, so one must learn when it hits the point of futility to continue.

Teachers who push gross error are to be openly condemned, for the sake of the listeners.

Sometimes the line between error and ERROR is a tricky one.

We talk to many people, here, who are into error. But would never think of coming down hard on them, as in banning or such.

Others are into error and refuse to discuss. They just want to be the divinely inspired one who will teach and preach and feel no need to discuss. That refusal is gross error, even if the basic error isn't gross.

My meaning is it is not easy to always find the correct path in dealing with such things, but those who jump on everything, acting the big shot, and those who jump on nothing, being too 'loving and harmonious, are actually flip sides of the same error. Meaning being extreme.

Balance.

I am sure many are tired of hearing me use that word, but it is the one all of us need to never forget. Ever.

Not everyone is a teacher. Many teachers are not something else.

To each a gift or gifts of the Holy Spirit. To none all the gifts.

[kay-gee]

This WoF. Is it an actual denom or is it more of an umbrella term encompassing many within that strata of pentecostalism? all the best...

[Jessie]

I'd say the latter but morfing into a demon of itself.

[CoreIssue]

This WoF. Is it an actual denom or is it more of an umbrella term encompassing many within that strata of pentecostalism? all the best...
More of an umbrella.

WoF is one arm/extreme of Pentacostalism. It is the fastest growing arm, with old syle Pentecostalism being replaced by it.

False doctrine can never remain statis, by nature. It either corrects back toward sound doctrine or increasingly gets worse.

The Pentecostal errors are, for the most part, rapidly getting worse.

[kay-gee]

Oh goodness. Glad I aint part of that!

[Jessie]

I can agree with that.

and they sure are getting worse. :(

[kay-gee]

The fellowship to which I belong, has no truck or trade with those groups, so I've just never had any exposure to them, to know. When you do one thing long enough, You don't see whats around you. You see, I'm a great believer in church. Christians belong in fellowship with other like minded. It really is a community. I love the saying, Don't where I first heard..."If you do ever find a perfect church........Don't join............You'll only mess it up!
all the best.........

[kay-gee]

Hurtfulness and insults proceed out of the heart of a man. (Matt 15:19). It is not what goes in, but what comes out that proves the character of a man.
CoreIssue, I obviously don't know what's happening in your personal life. Perhaps you are tired of things, feeling hemmed in by this thing you've created. The feeling that it's consuming time and energy you could devote to other things. I know the feeling myself, having been in similar situations.
I reopened this thread because it's perfect for this point I'm making.

I've chatted with you on other threads, about every day issues. I find you interesting. You have such a sense of things like science and such. I figure you for a guy that would be interesting to hang with for a day, swapping life adventures and insight
But on religion, it's a totally different matter. I ask you in all sincerity, Have you lost your zeal, your glow? If we cause those around us to be intimidated or made to feel small, then I ask, How are we to be "a city on a hill" a light to the world? We both need to get a grip on this End times business. What you so rigorously defend as "sound doctrine", is mere "poppy-cock" to others, esp. the ones you call lurkers! Those are the meat issues. Many watching us need a glass of milk to start with. (Heb 5:13). The end times are going to happen the way they are going to happen. That's all there is to it!
We need to concern ourselves with demonstrating Christ to others in a way that matters today. I want to lead people into that wonderful relationship that one can only have through knowing Christ. Whether or not Christ is reigning now as we speak, You can decide for yourself. As for me, He reigns in my heart. I know He is real. He has proved Himself time and again.
Please stop treating us as annoyances. According to you, I should just give up on the Bible because it will take many years to be able to understand anything. Wow, Talk about the voice of discouragement! The exact opposite of scripture. We are commanded to encourage. (Heb 10:25)
In closing, let me ask this Core, Have you lost your Christian joy?
I have on more than one occasion in my life, met gentlemen in their 90's, so full of Gods Word, it practically seeps out their pores. When you ask them questions or present a puzzle, They totally light up, a twinkle in the eye from another world. Sharing the Word is joy?
When it no longer is .....Quit!....Something to think about!
All the best...........

[CoreIssue]

Hurtfulness and insults proceed out of the heart of a man. (Matt 15:19). It is not what goes in, but what comes out that proves the character of a man.
CoreIssue, I obviously don't know what's happening in your personal life. Perhaps you are tired of things, feeling hemmed in by this thing you've created. The feeling that it's consuming time and energy you could devote to other things. I know the feeling myself, having been in similar situations.
I reopened this thread because it's perfect for this point I'm making.
When constructive criticism becomes an insult the listener, the problem lies with the listener.

Constructive criticism and the art of listen use to be upheld. Now the first is called insults and the second is lost.

What is the point of your constant politically correct statements, KG? It seems that you prefer harmony above truth.

Truth brings true peace and joy. My heart and spirit are at complete peace.

But that does not negate the realities of the world or the issues within the Church. PC being a HUGE one.

I don't get your point.

I've chatted with you on other threads, about every day issues. I find you interesting. You have such a sense of things like science and such. I figure you for a guy that would be interesting to hang with for a day, swapping life adventures and insight

It would be a long day. Plenty to offer from both of us.
But on religion, it's a totally different matter. I ask you in all sincerity, Have you lost your zeal, your glow?
No. If I had lost that, CTZ would not exist. I would not be studying. I would not be concerned with truth.
If we cause those around us to be intimidated or made to feel small, then I ask, How are we to be "a city on a hill" a light to the world?
Hmmmm. I hold back far more than you realize.

A light does not hide under a basket. That makes the light meaningless and weak.

You do not realize just how bad the world is. And how far the Church on the earth has sunk.

If you did, Amillennialism would truly ring hollow to you.
We both need to get a grip on this End times business. What you so rigorously defend as "sound doctrine", is mere "poppy-cock" to others, esp. the ones you call lurkers!
To some. Don't assume you get it as far as they are concerned.

Several of us have been at this years longer than you. You don't step into the forums and grasp all the realities immediately.

The diversity out there is far more extreme than you wish to accept. Those that cling to the Bible for truth are in the small majority.

It is hard to change those who have sought their beliefs from other sources to understanding it all has to conform and agree with the Bible.
Those are the meat issues. Many watching us need a glass of milk to start with. (Heb 5:13). The end times are going to happen the way they are going to happen. That's all there is to it!
And your ho hum attitude about the study of it makes one wonder why you keep after this issue.

Just disregard it if it is so trivial and meaningless. Expect, of course, maybe you cannot because it pokes holes in some of the beliefs you hold nearer and dearer in other areas. ;)
We need to concern ourselves with demonstrating Christ to others in a way that matters today.
Which does not exclude study to advance one's own sanctification.
I want to lead people into that wonderful relationship that one can only have through knowing Christ.
Paul criticised people who, after years, had not gone past the basics. Said they were still babies on mother's milk.

Get the point? We are to grow.

Whether or not Christ is reigning now as we speak, You can decide for yourself. As for me, He reigns in my heart. I know He is real. He has proved Himself time and again.

Different issue. Different subject. And he reigns thus in myself, as well.
Please stop treating us as annoyances.
Annoyances, no. But if you think declaring false doctrine is trivial, just simply, 'a different point of view,' then your love of truth is lackluster and weak.

Instead of whining about the need to just let it ago and accept, how about delving in and getting it right?
According to you, I should just give up on the Bible because it will take many years to be able to understand anything. Wow, Talk about the voice of discouragement!
You missed the point!

You come on and start making declarations about truth, about how we are wrong, about how we approach the Bible incorrectly, and so on.

But when pushed, you admit you have not EVEN STUDIED the issues out!

Now, who is the one who needs to step back and rethink themselves? You.

No one instantly 'get's it.' Paul went and studied for a solid year or more before he began his ministry. The disciples were with Jesus for 3.5 years. Christ studied the whole of his youth.

If you don't see growth requires study, I don't know what to say.

And yea, the deeper stuff does require many years to study, absorb, organize and deduce. It isn't instant, as you want it to be and seem to think it is.

One can 'get' the salvation thing quickly. And praise God for that.

But the rest takes time. Some a short amount of time, some long amounts of time.

After 46 years of study I am still discovering new things. And love ever moment of it.

The exact opposite of scripture. We are commanded to encourage. (Heb 10:25)

I am encouraging you to STUDY. False promises of instant success are not Biblical, either.

In closing, let me ask this Core, Have you lost your Christian joy?

No. But you seem to have failed to actually discover the full scope and depth of it.

That comes from plunging in and discovering more and more truths.

You are missing that joy.

I have on more than one occasion in my life, met gentlemen in their 90's, so full of Gods Word, it practically seeps out their pores. When you ask them questions or present a puzzle, They totally light up, a twinkle in the eye from another world. Sharing the Word is joy?

Bingo!

And that fullness of God's word came from decades of STUDY, which you seem to disdain.

Growing up I knew a wonderful ancient Christian, Mr. White. Told me to STUDY and never stop.

Dr. Dick St Marie, of the Emmaus Bible College would come from Chicago, many miles away, and encourage me to study, ask questions and grow.

These men were blessed with knowledge and held bright lights. NEITHER would back down from calling false doctrine false.

Nor would they tell others to do so, in the name of being PC.

Where is that today, in the modern world? Sadly, almost gone.
When it no longer is .....Quit!....Something to think about!
All the best...........
After 46 years of study, my join and hunger have never diminished. Nor has it in anyone I have ever met who gets the shovel out and starts digging.

It only become stale in those who think there is nothing else to learn.

They become anchors on those around them. Discouraging them from growth and study.

They are to fodder of the false doctrines sweeping through the Church today.

I won't go there. Why should you?

Study, learn and grow. Stop telling others they do not need to.

[a.baker]

Kay-Gee, On the anger thing it is o.k. sometimes. Anger is really an emotion used trying to make something positive. Anger is one of the most misunderstood emotions. Call it my German background or my up bringing of a hot temper dad but I have a hard time with this emotion as well. Don't want to make excuses but I am also young which I think plays a big role in that. But anger is a good thing at times. (again that balance thing) Like for example someone might get angry with their child for lying. You get angry because your trying to make this a positive experience for them. And I know God does get angry with us as well because again Hes trying to make something positive. Gods concern with this is that He is concerned about how we handled a situation. As long as you truely try. Remember Jesus got angry a time or two ( that one story about people trying to turn His temple into a market) But be careful because once someone shows anger it is a domino effect and the other person probably won't listen to what you have to say. Which is why so many of my friends won't listen to me talk about God because someone in the past made them angry in a discussion about God, that now I can't even say His name without them getting angry at me or offensive to the extreme. And I will pray for them since they are missing out on love and everything else wonderful God has to offer!

[kay-gee]

a. baker. I love your cheerful positive attitude. That's good!

I am likely close to twice your age, and I gotta tell you, it doesnt get all that much easier to deal with. I saw on another thread tonight about demons and stuff. I've always thought that those kinds of demons live inside you in sort of way. I struggle with the demon of anger. It haunts me. Always there lurking, looking for ways to surface. You know the comic book character The Incredible Hulk? Like that only I don't turn big and green! By striving and by continual prayer, I have been able to tune it down a lot. I can have explosions that last a few seconds to a minute, and then I'm fine and return to singing a song or something. Much of the time, it's over inanimate things or situations beyond my control. I have never beat anyone up, or anything like that. I couldn't really hurt someone. Not in my nature. Silly spur of the moment things like pitching an expensive camera out in sea because it wont do what I want it to do. Things like that. It is sin, pure and simple. I have to work on it daily.
all the best...

[kay-gee]

Core. Please be frank with me. What have I done to Peeve you off so much. I enjoy being a part of CTZ, And I really don't want to get turfed. It happened before. I said some really bitter things to someone (Dosen't appear to be on the board anymore) If my zeal for discussion is getting overbearing and ridiculous, then just tell me. I am man enough to take it. If I have wronged anyone, I will make amends. If my belief system is that much at odds, with the theme of the board, then tell me that too. I can adapt that too, so as not to soil the minds of the lurkers and new comers to the site that are searching for truth! Having said all that, let me be the voice of love and forgiveness on CTZ. With your penchant for doctrine and justice, we can really reach the perfect balance. The cause of Christ will be served and taken to another leverl. What do you think?
all the best

[CoreIssue]

Yep, we all have emotions and sin, KG.

But they are not demons. Demons are spiritual beings. As are angels.

There is spiritual warfare all around us.

Really, what do you think the gift of discernment of spirits is and exists for?

No, it ain't being a human lie detector, as those who want to deny such activity want to say.

[CoreIssue]

Core. Please be frank with me. What have I done to Peeve you off so much. I enjoy being a part of CTZ, And I really don't want to get turfed. It happened before. I said some really bitter things to someone (Dosen't appear to be on the board anymore) If my zeal for discussion is getting overbearing and ridiculous, then just tell me. I am man enough to take it. If I have wronged anyone, I will make amends. If my belief system is that much at odds, with the theme of the board, then tell me that too. I can adapt that too, so as not to soil the minds of the lurkers and new comers to the site that are searching for truth! Having said all that, let me be the voice of love and forgiveness on CTZ. With your penchant for doctrine and justice, we can really reach the perfect balance. The cause of Christ will be served and taken to another leverl. What do you think?
all the best
You have never gotten it, KG.

I am not peeved at you, but disappointed that you don't listen, weight and consider what is said to you.

I know you think you do, but you don't.

Actually, I am glad to have you here glad you want to be here.

Do you really think you would be back here if I doubted your sincerity or heart? You don't know me if you do.

I have banned a good number of cult folk. But never before giving them every chance to change or follow the rules. You ARE the first I have let back. ;)

All you have said is still here. Nothing was deleted when you took your vacation.

Understand, someone says something Biblical wrong, if I don't say it, someone else will. Don't ever think I am alone in being ardent on sound doctrine.

Is it to put people down? No. It is to get it right, especially if someone is saying something inaccurate to a seeker. Cannot let that go unchallenged.

Do we comment on every little thing said incorrectly? No. Only what cannot be let go.

Are we going to not challenge error, in the name of harmony. Dream on. Really.

Have you ever noticed ITW abounds with love and patience in his posts? Rarely getting corrective?

Do you see him challenged for it? No!

Why? Because he balances love with justice and truth. There is no love without justice or truth.

Cults can ooze love. All the way into Hell.

Say it correctly, and you won't be challenged.

But when you present it in the framework of unconditional forgiveness, sound doctrine counts less than harmony or preface even a legit statement with an doctrinal error, it will get mentioned.

Seekers do not need confusion. Or error.

Challenge all you want. But be ready to back it with real proof, if questioned.

Golden Rule, and one you not I never fail to abide by myself.

[a.baker]

Oh the anger demon. That one knows me well and so does the one that brings on waves of sadness when something big happens. But when I had a bad situation recently when my husband got into a car accident and killed a man walking in the road I happened to know pretty well was super hard. I was involved in that situation because I knew the man that passed away, my husband was the one who had the accident, I saw all of my friends in pain, worked at the funeral home the man was taken to and received a lot of death threats, plus some. But through the whole thing I never lost hope and thinking about God and God kept that demon of depressions away from me. God wouldn't have that. I feel so loved in the way God protected me at that moment.

[CoreIssue]

Oh the anger demon. That one knows me well and so does the one that brings on waves of sadness when something big happens. But when I had a bad situation recently when my husband got into a car accident and killed a man walking in the road I happened to know pretty well was super hard. I was involved in that situation because I knew the man that passed away, my husband was the one who had the accident, I saw all of my friends in pain, worked at the funeral home the man was taken to and received a lot of death threats, plus some. But through the whole thing I never lost hope and thinking about God and God kept that demon of depressions away from me. God wouldn't have that. I feel so loved in the way God protected me at that moment.
I don't want to take away the significance of what you are going through.

But don't fall into the pit of calling emotions demons. They are not. They are emotions.

Emotions can be even more destructive than demons. Because they come from our very being, not the outside.

[a.baker]

What about a thought. Like satan trying to sweet talk you, or talking you in or out of something. A thought that you can't believe even entered your mind. Not an emotion but thinking. Is that emotions or satan?

[CoreIssue]

What about a thought. Like satan trying to sweet talk you, or talking you in or out of something. A thought that you can't believe even entered your mind. Not an emotion but thinking. Is that emotions or satan?
Demons can urge, whisper and such, in a Christian's ear.

But actually putting a thought there, no.

It can be so easy for the flesh to go with it that it seems to be ones own thought, because we make it our own.

Remember, our sin natures are capable of anything. It is only and issue of how far one lets it go.

A non-Christian can actually be taken over, when they surrender to influences and such, to a point that such allow complete take over of ones actions.

That is why the Bible warns to be careful in casting out demons. If the person didn't want the demon out, they will come back with more demons or a stronger demon will move in.

[Jessie]

how can they whisper but not plant a thought?

[CoreIssue]

how can they whisper but not plant a thought?
Plant a thought, as in making your brain think it.

Suggestion is different than actually putting in. as if your own.

[Jessie]

suggest then we think it?

[CoreIssue]

Yes.

Knows one's weaknesses, because demons are super intelligent, compared to humans.

They know the buttons to push to get one there, if they can be gotten there.

[a.baker]

Can demons actually take ones life to cause others pain? For example the car accident. Did a demon make my husband and the other driver blind at that moment? The man that was hit, was a God angry person and always stating" I am God" and into drugs and hated everyone and grew up in an alcoholic home and so on. The mans father didn't seem to care much about his sons death (maybe because of his alcoholic abuse). The man was young and left behind a 3yr. old son. He was following in his fathers steps with the alcohol. He was a walking drunk in the middle of the road on a mon. at 11p.m. in snowy weather.Reports show that the mans alcohol limit should of made him be unconscious. They couldn't believe he was still walking. The sky's were clear but the roads were iced bad. My husband was coming home from night school. When the impact happened my husbands eyes were totally on the road and he was deciding if he should turn around and see what hit our car ( the windshield blew apart) or say it was a deer. But something from the impact damage told him something was terribly wrong so he turned the car around to investigate. Hearing an awful gagging breathing noise he found what had really happened. Not being to bring himself to this unknown person he ran to a house and phoned the police and such. The other driver didn't see this man in the road either. So the other driver never stopped. The other driver was driving on the opposite side of the road and kept on going. Scientific facts proves that this man was walking in the middle of the road and so its so hard to understand how did both my husband and other driver not see him? Remind you this happened in the country where theres only a village 1.5mi. down and so it is kinda isolated around there. I don't really know what I need but I need to talk about this. My husband can't talk (blame on himself), everyone writes this off that this man was going no where,so people are being so unsupportive ( even Christian type people I knew then) and acting like I shouldn't be feeling anything bad, and so on. But I can't stop thinking of his son, family, and me and this man knew each other in school well. We weren't friends but we had the same friends. Sorry but back to my original question; can demons make someone physically blind to cause pain?

[a.baker]

I must add to my husbands defense on even thinking about turning the car around to investigate after the impact, we hit 4 deer on different occasions that same season. After the accident with the man walking, we got our car all fixed and then we hit another deer 2wks later and again messed up our car pretty bad. Got that fixed after a short few couple of months and than hit one more deer. Luckily we live in a city now! Still drive that same car!

[Jessie]

could it more have been the glare on the road blinding your dh?

with ice and clear skys and maybe what the guy was wearing too.
the colors might have blended in.

I dont think a demon could do that. only God can choose when its a persons time.
but of course we dont tempt him either. sounds like bad judgement on the guys part.

its gotta be hard for your dh. real hard. hopefully in time he will come to terms with it.
I bet he feels just awful.

and for others to say oh so and so is going nowhere. thats wrong too.
esp. from Christians! that indifference just is so wrong!
cold and cruel.

are the deer just running right out in front of your car?

[a.baker]

Yes the man was wearing a dark sweatshirt and jeans. It was about 20 degrees outside that night. My husband said that as the other car was passing there was a slap of slush on my husbands windshield and then the windshield exploded. And yes I understand my husband must feel horrible and I hope that one day he can face this and I will be there for him. But I need support too and I feel ignored. Is that selfish? I tend to think it is but these feelings I have are still there. Demons trying to interact with my feelings? When I start to think about things I can become depressed to where I feel no emotions at all, can't even think of how I got there.

Lets see one deer was already dead laying in the middle of the road on the expressway ran over it with car (husband driving), two of the different occasions with deer collisions was a deer running full speed out into the side of our car (t bone, I was driving both times), another one was I saw it coming but I didn't stop in time and it kinda rolled down the whole side of our car (me driving I think that deer was sick), another one hit the grill of our car (husband driving) luckily that one caused no severe damage, and the last one was when my husband was driving his dads truck because our car was broken and the deer hit the grill and just cracked it a little bit. Not in that order though. My mother in law has had lots of accidents within the 6yrs. or so as well. One cow, one ambulance, missed stop sign, missed blind spot, couple of fender benders and so on. My mother and father have also had crazy ones in the past 3yrs. lucky to be alive! I have had one about 7yrs. ago and I am lucky to be alive as well. Ruined a 1968 Buick Skylark though... my first car! Car accidents are just the start with the crazy things that have happened to me in the last 7 yrs. Oh our car was stolen when I was 6mths. pregnant (sorry another car incident).Sorry don't mean to go on and on but now that we are talking about car accidents... all done. Have many other areas of bad luck I would also like to talk about.

[CoreIssue]

Can demons actually take ones life to cause others pain? For example the car accident. Did a demon make my husband and the other driver blind at that moment? The man that was hit, was a God angry person and always stating" I am God" and into drugs and hated everyone and grew up in an alcoholic home and so on. The mans father didn't seem to care much about his sons death (maybe because of his alcoholic abuse). The man was young and left behind a 3yr. old son. He was following in his fathers steps with the alcohol. He was a walking drunk in the middle of the road on a mon. at 11p.m. in snowy weather.Reports show that the mans alcohol limit should of made him be unconscious. They couldn't believe he was still walking. The sky's were clear but the roads were iced bad. My husband was coming home from night school. When the impact happened my husbands eyes were totally on the road and he was deciding if he should turn around and see what hit our car ( the windshield blew apart) or say it was a deer. But something from the impact damage told him something was terribly wrong so he turned the car around to investigate. Hearing an awful gagging breathing noise he found what had really happened. Not being to bring himself to this unknown person he ran to a house and phoned the police and such. The other driver didn't see this man in the road either. So the other driver never stopped. The other driver was driving on the opposite side of the road and kept on going. Scientific facts proves that this man was walking in the middle of the road and so its so hard to understand how did both my husband and other driver not see him? Remind you this happened in the country where theres only a village 1.5mi. down and so it is kinda isolated around there. I don't really know what I need but I need to talk about this. My husband can't talk (blame on himself), everyone writes this off that this man was going no where,so people are being so unsupportive ( even Christian type people I knew then) and acting like I shouldn't be feeling anything bad, and so on. But I can't stop thinking of his son, family, and me and this man knew each other in school well. We weren't friends but we had the same friends. Sorry but back to my original question; can demons make someone physically blind to cause pain?
In situations like this, yes they can.

The dead man allowed himself to be put into this position.

Demons could have done this just to kill him, to ensure he never made it to God. And maybe did it in this way to try to bring others down.

No one can say for certainity.

Or, it could have been nothing more than a very sad and distrubing accident.

We don't know. No way to know.

Demons could have known this was going to happen and brought other events into reality to add to the impact.

We just cannot know.

[Jessie]

wow. I would'nt have thought they could do that.

I was going to post, that people do see weird things so maybe it was possible,
but I thought they cant do that.

I stand corrected.

on the deer my dh was up by spokane maybe 10 yrs ago, said they just ran beside the car. :eek:

sounds like your going thru a lot too!

and nope its not selfish of you to have your feelings, it impacted your life too!

I'm curious just how much do demons know ahead of time?????

[CoreIssue]

Look at so many nations who had worshipped idols and did human sacrfices.

That is a perversion of the cross, caused by demons acting as gods.

They knew the cross was coming.

How much foreknowledge demons have, I do not know. But it is obvious they have some.

How many people have been murdered, assualted and such by demon possessed people?

Demons are powerful. Only fools act like they can personally overcome them.

[Jessie]

Look at so many nations who had worshipped idols and did human sacrfices.

That is a perversion of the cross, caused by demons acting as gods.

They knew the cross was coming.

How much foreknowledge demons have, I do not know. But it is obvious they have some.

How many people have been murdered, assualted and such by demon possessed people?

Demons are powerful. Only fools act like they can personally overcome them.

do they know what we think? or just obtain knowledge thru watching?

[CoreIssue]

Look at so many nations who had worshipped idols and did human sacrfices.

That is a perversion of the cross, caused by demons acting as gods.

They knew the cross was coming.

How much foreknowledge demons have, I do not know. But it is obvious they have some.

How many people have been murdered, assualted and such by demon possessed people?

Demons are powerful. Only fools act like they can personally overcome them.

do they know what we think? or just obtain knowledge thru watching?
I would think they can tell a lot by just watching us. They are very old and very smart.

[InTheWind]

As in the book of Job i thought Satan or his crew could do nothing without Gods permision?

[CoreIssue]

As in the book of Job i thought Satan or his crew could do nothing without Gods permision?
Not item by item.

God sets the parameters and demons operate within them.

As with us. he sets limits and we have freewill within them.

[InTheWind]

Demons could have done this just to kill him, to ensure he never made it to God. And maybe did it in this way to try to bring others down.



It was this quote that made me question, i would not think God would allow that unless it was Gods will.

[a.baker]

What is it that makes my soul constantly feel like its under attack? Is that demons or feelings? Right now I feel really angry and bottled up ( I am also going through some changes of bad habits for God). I feel like I am almost out of control inside but I can some how keep my cool to a certain extant on the outside. I pray about it and almost feel instantly better but there is something there that just won't seem to go away. Something very negative and troublesome. I pray about it all the time. I feel I need this fellowship to stay alive and keep fighting. Is that a demon trying to drag me down with constantly feeling like this? I ask because I don't know how to take this in? It never seemed so real or dramatic until I truly and soulfully found Him. So that makes me wonder if its a demon. Also could it be that now I have found Him maybe my eyes are just open to things they weren't before and so now I can really see what is going on. Sometimes when I think I feel an emergency, like I am giving up hope or something. But I don't. I just keep praying.The problems come and go in waves. If I am not being attacked on the outside, I am in the inside. I feel my heart and soul screaming HELP! I as well have many unresolved issues from the past with people that I will probably never see again some being strangers. I am telling this I guess because it is coming at me like a brick wall. My friend was molested over and over again when we were in junior high for about 3yrs. and it was our "secret". My friend got gang raped in front of me while I was stuck in the bathroom. I had verbal and some physical abuse growing up, got into many variety of drugs within the last few years (almost cleared up. have one more issue with that), have had all kinds of troubles with people cheating and lying and stealing and back stabbing me, and the list still goes on and on.Don't want to bore anyone out there. I am sure no one wants to hear it all since everyone has lots of problems but I already feel a little better just being able to type that in without someone interrupting me and saying oh yeah well this happened to me and start talking about them own selfs (when people do that it feels like they are not even listening to you. they always have to have one up on you). I again apologize for the drawn out reply of problems but I guess that is because I am finding someone who is actually listening to me. P.S. Need a break from my 3yr. old! I have to figure something out to go to Church!

[InTheWind]

Sorry a.baker but i don`t have many answers for ya other than what i have to do which is continually talk myself into forgetting the past and looking ahead.
Realize we are leaky vessels and need a refilling of the HS daily so pray for that.
Depression is a physical problem and medication for it can help, and others praying for you which i will certainly do. :pray::hug::pray:

[Jessie]

you cant go back and unscramble the past. Life is an ebb and flow.
whats really helped me is to tell the demons to leave in Jesus name daily.

at first it was all the time, now not so much.

do you know whats making you angry?

gotta get the anger out for me that was really frightening.

(sometimes I relate things in my life so I can talk clearer hope thats ok.
not trying to "have one up" its just how I communicate.)

ITW had great advice for me not long ago, I had to shake the dust off my feet and move on. and its sure been better for me too!
I was like stuck in the past.

[a.baker]

No I wasn't saying anyone here was trying to have one up on me. I was saying whenever I try to go to the other people in my life thats how the situation gets treated. Or they will say well at least you have this that or the other, and that makes me feel my problems aren't trivial enough to think about or have feelings for. My mother does this when she says well at least you have food and shelter. Which is true but I go to my mother for wisdom or just a supportive loving talk and she will say this to just write off my problems so I am not allowed to say much more about the conversation. Or if I go to one of my friends they will interrupt me and say oh this happened to this girl I know and so by the time we are done with the conversation it has gotten trailed off to who knows. It seems to me that people in my mothers generation weren't allowed to talk about how they felt much. People would keep to themselves a lot more (maybe its because they don't want to be a burden to anybody?). I do know that my generation is definitely more selfish. For example: what about you? Do this for yourself you deserve it. Whats in it for you? Oh no an accident, sue them. ect... But at least I don't go to that extreme. Went to bed last night to get some sleep in a 5 hr. time frame and I probably woke up like 10 times. So something must be bothering me. Maybe I am letting the feeling of worry set in. But I ask myself for what? I am not worried about anything and don't need to be. Thinking too much can't be for ones good... can it? That must be my problem. When I go to school I will have something else to think about I suppose.:eek::scratch::tiphat:

[a.baker]

Sorry just wanted to add... moving on...

[Jessie]

:hug:

[a.baker]

Thank-x Jessie!!!

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I enjoy being a part of CTZ, And I really don't want to get turfed. It happened before. I said some really bitter things to someone (Dosen't appear to be on the board anymore)

Oh, I'm still here lurking and reading. :tiphat:

Just haven't been posting as much.

How ya doin'?

[kay-gee]

Hi Chrystal, long time no see (no talk...hee...hee), I'm doing well. How about you? I know you were have some terrible health issues. I hope and pray things are turning a corner.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Hi guys. Be careful not to be too quick in blaming demons for all the things that go wrong. I've come to realize that I need to claim ownership of the bad things that have happened to me. I speaking particularly in terms of addictions and such, not about happenstances, such as accidents etc... which are the work of mere chance not evil spirits. What I guess i'm trying to say is that some of my worst prediciments were the results of my own selfishness and sin. True happiness can only be attained by a wholehearted unrestrained commitment to follow Christ!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Hi guys. Be careful not to be too quick in blaming demons for all the things that go wrong.
Already said, many times.
I've come to realize that I need to claim ownership of the bad things that have happened to me. I speaking particularly in terms of addictions and such, not about happenstances, such as accidents etc... which are the work of mere chance not evil spirits.
What you do to yourself, yes.

So, the Bible has it all wrong speaking of the working of demons. Hmmmm.

How every modern of you.

Of course chance happens! We have all said it.

But a blanket dismissal of demonic activity is foolish.

I quess all good things are also from you as well? Never any angelic or Holy Spirit intervention?
What I guess i'm trying to say is that some of my worst prediciments were the results of my own selfishness and sin.
Agree.

True happiness can only be attained by a wholehearted unrestrained commitment to follow Christ!

Which has nothing to do with the reality of demonic activity.

God does NOT block all such activity. A little thing called freewill, not only yours, but of those around you that impact you. Or you them.

Complex issue. Not simple.

[a.baker]

Coreissue I think maybe you have misunderstood a little of what kaygee was trying to say. You seem to always jump to an argument or dispute with him. He could of written a 2 page thread to say what he meant but I think you would of jumped on him any ways. He was just talking about accidents are accidents. People don't blame themselves much when the finger of blame needs to pointed at them (modern America). He was still acknowledging that demons do exists he just didn't need to spell that out; thought it would be a given. Speaking in tongues for example is also in the bible stated as a gift from God. I personally never heard one speak in tongues and if I did it would creep me out. I know speaking of tongues does still exists its just super rare. I know demons do exist and are more common then one would expect. Thats all not picking sides just observing.

[CoreIssue]

No. I don't think I jumped too early.

There are a lot of lurkers reading here. Many who don't have much, if any, understanding of Biblical Chrisitianity.

Clarity is a must.

And KG is very deep into PC, Amil and non-literalism.

Denial of demonic activity, or extreme limitation of such is a common trait.

While not all do, non-literalists play down the depth of human sin nature. Most just don't see, or will not accept, the true depths of it.

Too many debates over too many years to not see where these issues are leading to.

If KG did accept such demonic attacks, there was no reason to challenge it to begin with, since it had already been stated that to blame demons for everything was wrong.

And on the side note of Tongues. Yes, the gift is still given. But no, not as Pentecostals definite it, being a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which actually occurs at repentence, to everyone born-again. Not later, and not to all, as they believe.

It is the way we are born again.

[a.baker]

Yeah that is why i can't take the whole Pentecostal religion. I researched it and it says that speaking in tongues is one of their main things. I think when done in such a forceful manor it can turn into something thats unwelcomed. I can't seem to agree with just one denomination of any. I will just stick to my bible.

[kay-gee]

Just wondering. What has my amil position got to do with demonic activity? Also literalism and PC? I take it that my belief systems offend you, and now no matter what I talk about, These labels will be back to haunt me.
Question: do you believe that insanity and epilepsy are the results of demons? They were in NT times. It's obvious that something has changed from then to now! The diseases they attributed to demonic activity in those days, can now be explained medically and scientifically. You Yourself, quote "Knowledge will increase"
As for the tongues, they served their purpose in the 1st century church, in spreading the gospel and verifying the authenticity of the apostles. They were in fact human languages. The miraculous part is they were spoken by people not trained to speak those languages. The bone I've always had with Pentecostalism comes from the last half of 1 Cor 13. It appears to me that when the perfect revelation of Gods will for man (Bible) was complete, there was no need for the other miracles.
a,baker, please don't under estimate the need and the value of human fellowship. There are no Lone Ranger Christians. If you have been saved, then you have been added to His body. It's all about what you bring to the church, not what you take from it! I'm trying to be helpful. The fellowship needs YOU and YOUR gifts!
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Just wondering. What has my amil position got to do with demonic activity?
Your words and the fact Amil is extremely none literal.

Whether you realize it, or not, there are belief patterns.

Those that belief in X tend, but not always, believe in Y.

Certain doctrines X are incompatible with docrines Y. So, you see one and you know the another is not accepted.

Simple reality.
Also literalism and PC?
Simple reality. You cannot get PC thinking out the Bible if you read literally.

And again, your own words, on many topics, have been very PC.
I take it that my belief systems offend you,
No. Does not offend me. But false doctrine is false doctrine.

What is with liberal thinking feeling to disagree with them is to be offended.

Cliches and push buttons to try to discredit those who disagree.

I have always given you Biblical REASONS why I disagree. You have not given me such in return.

And please, it is so obvious you think you are playing 'the game' in many discussions. It IS the favorite approach to those who cannot nail down proofs.

But that proves nothing, except you have no proofs to offer.

Just simple reality.
and now no matter what I talk about, These labels will be back to haunt me.
Because they apply!

Someone comes on asking question X or personal issue Y. You put up answers based on your thinking.

And you don't expect to get comments on it when it isn't Biblical? Really?
Question: do you believe that insanity and epilepsy are the results of demons?
There is disease, neurological damage, birth defects, personal choice and demons.

Each is a candidate until narrowed down to the one it actually is.
They were in NT times.
In some cultures. Yes.

In periods of history. Yes.

But in the Bible. NO! All the above are shown in the Bible.

If you believe the Bible labels all of them demonic, they you indeed do not believe in an infallible Bible. Period.

It's obvious that something has changed from then to now! The diseases they attributed to demonic activity in those days, can now be explained medically and scientifically. You Yourself, quote "Knowledge will increase"

So, the Bible is a social and historical book, not a never changing truth?

Yea. How very modern of you.
As for the tongues, they served their purpose in the 1st century church, in spreading the gospel and verifying the authenticity of the apostles. They were in fact human languages. The miraculous part is they were spoken by people not trained to speak those languages.
Not always. Paul said he spoke in angelic tongues.

But indeed, in 99% of the mentions they were unknown tongues of man.

But not around anymore? You need to study 1 Cor. Says they ARE still around.

And if you don't have a gift or know of someone who does, you need to step back and wonder why.

The bone I've always had with Pentecostalism comes from the last half of 1 Cor 13. It appears to me that when the perfect revelation of Gods will for man (Bible) was complete, there was no need for the other miracles.

Gifts are tools, not revelation. Tools to use in ministering the Gospel.
a,baker, please don't under estimate the need and the value of human fellowship. There are no Lone Ranger Christians. If you have been saved, then you have been added to His body. It's all about what you bring to the church, not what you take from it! I'm trying to be helpful. The fellowship needs YOU and YOUR gifts!
all the best...
Balance.

What value is there in non-Biblical fellowship?

[a.baker]

Yes we must have human fellowship. This is what I gather from the bible... God gave us feelings for a purpose and what purpose? Freewill. We just need to learn how to use them the way God had intended. I think God wants us to suppress some feelings like anger, worrying, ect. and even some of the thoughts that may pop into our heads. But there are other feelings to endure in like love, sadness, joy, ect. We don't want to get bottled up either. But yes these all have have balance to go with. We can't suppress all emotion especially sadness and love because we will turn into robots. God loves us humans more then His angels because we have free will. The thing I don't understand though is why did He give mental sickness like bipolar and such? That makes one be tormented doesn't it? Many mental illnesses seem to be inner torment that someone didn't purposely go out and seek but yet they have to live with it and in many cases can't escape it. It also means that they act in a way of no control over their heads or hearts and where is freewill in that? That would make Gods purpose in a way be throwing one to the fire without a chance. I know God would not do that. That is why I don't believe in mental medicine but it is there. And for some reason it does exist. Since I have been reading the bible I have decided to not go to school all together because everything I need to learn and is meaningful to Him is all in the bible. School would only bring me a burden of constant worry. I would be so stressed out and busy I wouldn't have time for the bible or God. Who needs that? So I decided to not go to school. As long as I play my part in hard work and finding jobs and and enduring in my part of the responsibilities the bible says I never have to worry over food or being sick because He will take care of His own. God is my health insurance. It sure does make me feel at rest from my burdens! My worry is gone.

[CoreIssue]

Yes we must have human fellowship. This is what I gather from the bible... God gave us feelings for a purpose and what purpose? Freewill. We just need to learn how to use them the way God had intended. I think God wants us to suppress some feelings like anger, worrying, ect. and even some of the thoughts that may pop into our heads. But there are other feelings to endure in like love, sadness, joy, ect. We don't want to get bottled up either. But yes these all have have balance to go with. We can't suppress all emotion especially sadness and love because we will turn into robots. God loves us humans more then His angels because we have free will.
Yep. Freewill requires many abilities to exist that we have to use carefully. Agree.

Angels have freewill, as well.
The thing I don't understand though is why did He give mental sickness like bipolar and such?
He does not give such.

Sin nature allows sin that deteriorate us genetically, health and otherwise.

What one generation does absolutely impacts many, if not all, that come after.

It has caused the extinction of more than one family line.

And God, if it is necessary for freewill to work, does allow demons to cause disease like affects upon those they either possess or affect.

But God didn't create these things. He allowed them to come into existence.
That makes one be tormented doesn't it?
For many it is. For others it is a form of escape. Complex issue.
Many mental illnesses seem to be inner torment that someone didn't purposely go out and seek but yet they have to live with it and in many cases can't escape it.
Really complex. This gets into issues of innocence, personal responsibility and more.

Just because someone doesn't do drugs and such does not mean they didn't allow it into their lives. Very complex.
It also means that they act in a way of no control over their heads or hearts and where is freewill in that?
This can be the results of personal decisions for some. So, even if they don't like it once it hits, they caused it.

Absolutely, for others, injury and such takes away some controls. Which brings in the issues of God holding them personally responsible or not.

What one does not know is sin or has absolutely no way to stop from doing it, even if they know it is wrong, does not hold one personally responsible.

It is very complex. So, while many want to the boil the Bible down to extreme siplicity, or reject it because they hold it to be over-simplistic, it isn't.

With time you will see the Bible is anything but simple on such things.
That would make Gods purpose in a way be throwing one to the fire without a chance.
No. That isn't correct.

Innocence, responsibility, sin knowledge and other issues all weigh in here.

Just to commit a sin does not make one accountable for a sin. A child, before accountability, in example, are not judged for their sins because the don't know what sin is.
I know God would not do that.
Yes. But seeing how it works takes time to dig into. And it will never be easy to deal with, ever.
That is why I don't believe in mental medicine but it is there. And for some reason it does exist.
Psychadeltic medicines come from those who reject the existence of sin and spirit, in the main.

They are trying to fix evil, which they deny exists, by calling it biochemical.
Since I have been reading the bible I have decided to not go to school all together because everything I need to learn and is meaningful to Him is all in the bible.
What kind of school you mean here, I am not sure about.

But the Bible teaches about reality and responsibilities about or earthly existence.

School is part of that.

And indeed, some parts of school aid in learning the Bible, such as linquistics, semantics, logic and such.
School would only bring me a burden of constant worry. I would be so stressed out and busy I wouldn't have time for the bible or God. Who needs that? So I decided to not go to school. As long as I play my part in hard work and finding jobs and and enduring in my part of the responsibilities the bible says I never have to worry over food or being sick because He will take care of His own. God is my health insurance. It sure does make me feel at rest from my burdens! My worry is gone.
Sorry, you are not promised health, wealth and prosperity.

Many dear Christians have cancer, woes raising famiies, diabetes, injuries and on and on.

Expect tribulation in ones life.

Yes, expect God to be there. But no, don't look to a smooth road.

They are slaughtering and making Chrisitan life miserable in such as Islamic countries.

Truly, those folk have faith to be Christian. And they are suffering, big time.

We are promised spiritual security, on this earth, not physical.

[a.baker]

Another question about mental illness. Many that have these seem to be in poverty and have no insurance for mental medicine (medicine and science is a prayer answered to men in many circumstances). So they continue to live in torment. But Gods word is free and can bring any of these people out of their sicknesses. Many see medicine as the only way out. Not true. There was a place that I read that psychiatrists report that many who take meds for mental disease are just living in fear of dealing with their problems and so medicine is a way to escape. Meds may need to be used in some cases I suppose, but I think it would be rare to have it result in meds for mental sickness. If only they would pick up the bible. Many times Jesus healed in the bible because of faith alone!

[CoreIssue]

Another question about mental illness. Many that have these seem to be in poverty and have no insurance for mental medicine (medicine and science is a prayer answered to men in many circumstances).
Well, families with money are are very good at hiding their issues.

So, I am not sure if poverty = more problems.

Might be. Just not sure.
So they continue to live in torment.
I guess it depends on how you define torment.

I see the drinking and drugging crowd as living in torment. But they embrace it.

Not disputing the poor, with health issues, are trapped. Not for a second.
But Gods word is free and can bring any of these people out of their sicknesses.
True.

If not physically or mentally, at least in the spirits, where it counts the most.
Many see medicine as the only way out. Not true.
Agree.
There was a place that I read that psychiatrists report that many who take meds for mental disease are just living in fear of dealing with their problems and so medicine is a way to escape.
Agree.

And what profession is considered to have doctors with the biggest problems? Yep, them, because you know where they place their faith and look to for solutions.
Meds may need to be used in some cases I suppose, but I think it would be rare to have it result in meds for mental sickness.
Some do have physical injuries, chemical imbalances and such that meds can help with.

In example, a diabetic's body is out of whack, not functioning correctly.

Should he quite taking his pills or insulin and have faith?

No, he should have faith and take his meds while praying for healing. Tha is the Biblical formula.

And God will not always heal such. Look at Paul and his eyes.
If only they would pick up the bible. Many times Jesus healed in the bible because of faith alone!
Whether God chooses to heal or not, indeed pick up that Bible. :tiphat:

[a.baker]

Riches? Only Gods word is where I will find true riches.I kinda want to stay poor. The bible says to be a fool for God.Not foolish in the Christians eyes but foolish in the sinful eyes. Yes I agree with the mental illness thing ( some were rhetorical statements). Yes I very much except full responsibility for my outcome. School? I was talking about community college since that is all I can "afford" or would be accepted into. I learn very uniquely when it comes to study in the classroom which makes me fail much in the past. Scientist argue over what intelligence and knowledge really are and how the brain works. What would I go to school for anyways. I can't find a thing that interests me. Maybe I am meant to stick with simple work. Simple work does not mean you will have a simple life though. I have problems all over the place. My husband already has a hefty college bill that hangs over our heads. Not to mention we are in debt with much other things as well. Collection debt. We don't need any more. We have enough to take care of already that I don't see a financial way out.

[CoreIssue]

Spiritual riches, amen!

College and bills, things you guys will have to weigh out.

Off topic, since I don't know where he stands degree wise and such, but here is a site that might help with a good paying job and career, if he isn't already on that road.

http://www.usajobs.gov/

If not tied down, where you are, be flexible.

Goverment is good to get into, then do vertical and lateral moves to get where you want to ultimately be, even if it means starting where you do not want to be.

[a.baker]

Oh no not diabetes one would die with out meds! Its in my family big time. Yes sickness is there for all but physical is much different then mental. I have a much easier time accepting physical then mental. Physical sickness is there for all, rich or poor.Gods children and sinners. I care more about my soul then anything else when it comes to my body. I show God my appreciation for my good health. I exercise, take vitamins, eat right, sleep well, and keep my body sober (repentance). But if I get sick, I can take meds and have faith at the same time..agree. I don't want anyone to think I am having beliefs in some kind of scientific Church like that one actor... I forget his name.

[CoreIssue]

OK. No problems.

Tom Cruise.

[a.baker]

He does contractor type work. He makes enough money to keep us going. I work too but its hard to do anything with his over worked schedule. He works 9a.m. to about 6 or 7 p.m. Doesn't leave me much time for anything.I can't do anything late at night because I have to get up for work at about 3:45 a.m. No money for daycare and only one car thats almost broken...transmition. Can't get a new car; bad credit the both of us. Husband has many points on license; that doesn't help. My records clean though. Have no extra money to save for a new car. No extra money for even our basics or for any cheap fun. Living is so expensive!As long as I keep going and trying. I must supply for my family before myself at all times! School I would love to but everything packed in with that is beyond me.

[a.baker]

Yes! Tom Cruise. Sorry I don't know much about Hollywood.

[a.baker]

Thank-x for listening!!! Lots of weight on my shoulders!

[CoreIssue]

Not knowing a lot about Hollywood is nothing to apologize for! :p

And your welcome. We do care, here. :tiphat:

[Jessie]

I understand the bills and no money all to well.

today had to take in my car to get the front brakes fixed.
last night they finally went. clanging bad. they wanted almost $300 to do them,
but settled on about $219. including oil change. took most of my check. :ick:
and I just got paid today. I get paid every 2 weeks and this check should have been going to the dr. and dentist with a bit left over. theres nothing. dont even know about gas to get back and forth to work.

its tiring. :(

I'd like to say too that richer familys do HIDE all to well their problems,
and I'd think they have just as many. just different.

not sure what you meant on the meds? could you explain?

my dad was a nam vet, had schizophrenia. he needed meds.
he did'nt want them, but needed it badly. sure would have helped in
he'd known the Lord though.

the mind can be injured just like a arm or leg or function wrongly like a persons kidneys go haywire. I'd say its the worst thing to have wrong.

a lot of thinking errors cause troubles too. its complicated.

[a.baker]

Yes his mind was injured from war very understanding! I almost joined the army right before Sept. 11 and glad I changed my mind. War does make one mentally sick. Have people in my family that take meds for mental illness as well. War is so wrong for many reasons. Don't get me wrong I do support our troops just not war. My close friend just got out and has some sick stories and my cousin is in now.

[a.baker]

Mental sickness is a closet of darkness of torment inside ones mind. I do understand that much.

[kay-gee]

you seem to be implying mental illness is solely on one's income, however most personality and mood disorders ( like schizophrenia) have hereditary causes.

[a.baker]

No it can come from many different life styles and types of people.

[CoreIssue]

you seem to be implying mental illness is solely on one's income, however most personality and mood disorders ( like schizophrenia) have hereditary causes.
There are inherent problems in many families. Unavoidable to the descendents.

There are herent traits. Hard to deal with, but not unavoidable. Choice comes into play here.

There are induced conditions, as in by purely personal choices, such as drugs, life style and so on.

Homosexuality, alcohol addiction and such, in example, were debunked by the Genome Project, on the claim of being inherent.

They are herent. There is a leaning and a weakness toward them, but one must choose to give into them.

Mental issues can fall into any of those categories.

A ton of what is called disease isn't disease.

Addiction isn't a disease. It is a choice that one must choose to escape as they chose to take it one.

Hard to escape, yes. But a disease, like getting a germ, no.

[a.baker]

yes definitely a complicating issue.

[kay-gee]

I want to know why every time I mention that Christians need to get happier, I get hammered into the ground. Do you have that much dis-dain for me? What have I done to cause this reaction? I think you must have a skewed view of who I am. I am not some privelaged rich brat that dosen't know anything about real life. In fact the opposite is true. I struggle with all kinds of things, both internal and external. Yes I have a home in the Bahamas. Nothing of my doing, I caught a break. I married into the right family. Not that many years ago we were helping my mom-in-law monetarily. She was practically on welfare. That was before she inherited the 900 acres of ocean property (her childhood home) in the Bahamas and became fabulously wealthy. Had Zero to do with me. A blessing from God, pure and simple. My wife and I have given sacrificially in many ways so others can be helped. And don't tell me about being persecuted for the faith. I've been trying to establish a congregation on our Island against bitterest opposition. Noone seems very interested in NT Christianity and dismiss as cultic cranks. My wife blew the weeks grocery budget one time, helping some guy get into a rehab program. (Some young Dude we don't even really know) The reason I don't have my motorcycle yet is because I gave the money to a struggling preacher to get a decent vehicle to get him and his family around! He was in more need than I was. I don't brag or take credit for those things. I simply do them out of care and concern for the brotherhood. Simply fill the cups of others and God fills yours. It is simple and biblical. I get kinda tired of hearing about all the negativity and talk about demons following you around and all that. Try jumping in the trenches and doing the work that The Lord has given you to do. Yeah, the worlds going down! So what! We are to be light. If not us, Then who?!!! Another thing, I am not some happy happy PC fuzzy minded dude, singing "everything is beautiful" Yeah, I believe in Hell and judgment. I also believe, that if you give people a reason to want to see God,You are more likely gonna make disciples. We are a city on a hill. The Lord said that, not me! The difference is, I believe it and try to live by it! So please stop being so depressed and bummed out about everything. Sometimes you sound like a bunch of drunks (minus the booze) and commiserating about all of your problems and the worlds and how every thing is somebody's fault and blah blah. C'mon people cheer up. This is my thread, and I'm gonna keep saying it, no matter how it ruffles your feathers. Cheer up!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I want to know why every time I mention that Christians need to get happier, I get hammered into the ground.
Because you are not listening.

There are people with real needs and struggles. The reality of the times is something would should not bury our heads in the sand about.

It is Biblical and the Bible says we are to study it. There is a special blessing in it.

You don't seem to recognize the difference between earthly and spiritual. You talk as if both are the same.

We are discussing the realities of our times.

Where is this requirement Christians have to go around only talking happy happy all the time?

That is blindness.
Do you have that much dis-dain for me? What have I done to cause this reaction?
Not disdain. Frustration of the peace, love and joy 'Christianity' that is killing the Gospel and the Truth about reality.
I think you must have a skewed view of who I am.
We only see what you present.
I am not some privelaged rich brat that dosen't know anything about real life. In fact the opposite is true. I struggle with all kinds of things, both internal and external. Yes I have a home in the Bahamas. Nothing of my doing, I caught a break. I married into the right family. Not that many years ago we were helping my mom-in-law monetarily. She was practically on welfare. That was before she inherited the 900 acres of ocean property (her childhood home) in the Bahamas and became fabulously wealthy.
But you still have it.

I do better than most on the board. I admit it.

Not as well as you, for sure.

But I also struggle with physical and medical issues.

So not saying your life is without issue. But it sure isn't approaching what some are struggling with.

Many Christians are daily struggling with serious pain, economics and so on. That NEEDS discussed, not being told to slap a happy face on.

Inner peace does not always translate to earthly peace. A reality you don't seem to get.
Had Zero to do with me. A blessing from God, pure and simple.
How do you know it is a blessing from God?

I know people that are rich, well off and more. And it ain't a blessing from God.

Where do so many 'modern' Christians get the idea from that to get material wealth means it is a blessing from God?

I am not knocking it. Just like a reality blended in here.

Enjoy it. But don't knock the circumstances of others who do not have it to enjoy.

The Bible is very clear on the issues of the End Times, Israel and such. Somehow, you keep dismissing the realities that are swarming aound you.

That is not disdain or dislike. I actually see a lot in you I like.

But it is frustration that you have such redicule for discussing Biblical realities in light of the times on a discussion and debate board!
My wife and I have given sacrificially in many ways so others can be helped.
Good. And you are not alone. Many here, have.
And don't tell me about being persecuted for the faith. I've been trying to establish a congregation on our Island against bitterest opposition.
And where is the persecution?

Has your house been fire bombed? You shot at? Beat up?

Yes, we understand opposition. But opposition falls far short of persecution.
Noone seems very interested in NT Christianity and dismiss as cultic cranks.
We understand that.

Now, which is going to help you more, putting on the happy happy or bringing it out into the open where you can maybe get experience, input and help from others on approaches to get around it?
My wife blew the weeks grocery budget one time, helping some guy get into a rehab program. (Some young Dude we don't even really know) The reason I don't have my motorcycle yet is because I gave the money to a struggling preacher to get a decent vehicle to get him and his family around! He was in more need than I was. I don't brag or take credit for those things. I simply do them out of care and concern for the brotherhood.
Yep. And don't kid yourself. I don't know of anyone, here, who has not made such sacrifices as well.

As with you, we don't go around publicizing them. But in private discussions and planning, such things are known, to some.
Simply fill the cups of others and God fills yours. It is simple and biblical.
Yes. But no promises you get a drop on this earth.

Maybe you don't mean it, but you do sound like you have more health, wealth and prosperity beliefs in you than are Biblical.
I get kinda tired of hearing about all the negativity and talk about demons following you around and all that.
Then get tired. But that makes us wonder why you are not considered a worthy target.
Try jumping in the trenches and doing the work that The Lord has given you to do.
Then there are those kind of statement.

You believe we don't do anything but talk.

You could not be further from the truth.
Yeah, the worlds going down! So what!
Time to do what the Bible says. Get the last of the Church Harvest in.

You don't see the severity of the issue because you don't read literally.

That hamstrings your work. And why you are not a target, like others are, of demons and the world.

Of course, you don't get that.
We are to be light. If not us, Then who?!!!
And light shows ALL! Not just the disco flash.
Another thing, I am not some happy happy PC fuzzy minded dude, singing "everything is beautiful" Yeah, I believe in Hell and judgment.
OK. But do you tell others of that reality? Or just the good parts that make you feel good?

The Bible IS a very negative book, by your standards. It spends more time condemning and judging than being all happy.

Why? Because the fear of God leads to the joy and love of God.

When one achieves that joy and love, then they are unshakable, in it. There is no fear.

We need to make a world that mocks God fear God before they will ever turn to God.
I also believe, that if you give people a reason to want to see God,You are more likely gonna make disciples. We are a city on a hill. The Lord said that, not me! The difference is, I believe it and try to live by it!
And what reason is that, KG?

Happy happy? They think they already have that and to turn to God is to give up the things that make them happy happy.

Happy happy doesn't change people.

Ever hear the expression one has to hit bottom before they can look up? Think about it.
So please stop being so depressed and bummed out about everything. Sometimes you sound like a bunch of drunks (minus the booze)
We are not depressed in God. And whether you believe that or not is your problem.

But we are not self blinded about the world around us either.

First step in fixing something is seeing what is broken.
and commiserating about all of your problems
Yea. We see how well your solutions work.

Several have come on with problems. Did they get anywhere with your just be happy approach? No.

Change came when first facing up to reality, even when it hurt.

Yea, you get hurt facing reality, Bibilical or otherwise. Then you get blessed.

Repentence requires first seeing your failure. Not finding a big smile for your face.
and the worlds and how every thing is somebody's fault and blah blah.
Everything is someone one's fault. Get over it.

It is God's fault when you knocks someone down to get them to look up and stop being so self righteous in themselves.

It is another's fault when someone is whining about others and made to see they are doing it to themselves.

It is the world's fault when they try to silence the Church.

It is a demon's fault when it works to destroy our work.

It is a weak Christian's fault when they think just preach love and harmony is enough to change people. It ain't.

In fact, the Seek Sensitive, Positive Thinking and others such movements have left the Bible and become cult teachings.
C'mon people cheer up. This is my thread, and I'm gonna keep saying it, no matter how it ruffles your feathers. Cheer up!
And you are going to be told you need to wake up.

We are not unhappy, in Christ.

Many here are testimonies to Christ. They are struggling with physical, medical, money and other issues, but never have lost hope in Christ.

If you think facing reality, sharing issues with fellow Christians and such is negative, then so be it. We call it working on answers and understanding what is happening.

Bible tells us to share it all, with him and our fellows. That is true fellowship and equiping the saints for the war with the world.

You don't see it? Your loss.

[InTheWind]

Kay-Gee may i suggest you start our day off with a good morning thread in the chat and fellowship forum, sing praises, shouts with joy whatever.
That`s the place to show our joy in the Lord. :nod::):

[a.baker]

I just wanted to say something off subject real quick and than I will comment on the thread. My daughter says "mom I am going to pray to God" and I say "o.k. go ahead". She says " Dear God thank you for all our snacks and clothes". I just thought that was neat. She is going to Church and finding so much joy and talking about Him often! (especially for a 3yr. old)

Kay-gee,
We are supposed to imitate children in that aspect as my example above. The joy, singing, and praise. But when I first came here I didn't open my bible I was just talking about feelings but still talking about God. When I came here I got all kind of comments after comments "open your bible". Well I did and behold I now fully see. I was so blind before. This website and eve