Jekyll and Hyde religion

[kay-gee]

Do you remember the old adage, you can talk about anything you want here except politics or religion? Whenever I heard that, I would think, well there goes my two favourite things. I will be reduced to making mundane small-talk for the duration of this social engagement. Have you ever wondered why that is so? What is there about talking about the very thing that is most precious to us (our faith) that brings out this brutal side of our natures. I will refer to this as Jekyll and Hyde syndrome. Before I go any further, let me say that I am as guilty as anyone in these matters. I began this thread with the hopes of getting to the bottom of this disease in our natures. I am by most standards, a fairly cool guy. easy natured etc... But as soon as someone categorizes me religously or politically I feel an assault on my person and character. Suddenly, as a lion released from a cage, I want to come out slashing. This in turn brings out the fangs and claws of the other person. In a short time any hope of meaningfull discussion is gone. As many of you know I was barred from CTZ, for this very reason. I felt trapped and mis-interpeted so I defended myself with underhanded slurs against others. My wife says that I always do this. Believe me I had no idea, of the hurt I caused. This has to stop. Its dross that must be removed from the character. Jesus taught that we have to live ABOVE our very natures. Basic human-ness says to hurt when you're being hurt. Any one can act that way, but we've all been called to a higher standard. Lets all just try to stop the fighting and accusations and the judging. Even if you don't agree with someones point, return to them gently. That is what separates GOOD teachers from mediocre ones. The discussion continues and things get learned. People we gotta stop getting our nickers in a knot about some of these things. If I'm amill and or premill or whatever, so what, the Lord is going to do what He is going to do according to HIs plan regardless of you and me! I have zero in common with Jehovah Witnesses, But I try to treat them more cordially than some of the conduct I've seen on this forum of late. There is no room in the Christian heart for hatred, Anger, bitterness. Non what-so-ever. Zero!! Period. Don't believe me?, re-read the entire NT! Scarcely one epistle does not codemn this sort of thing. When we act this way, it totally destroys our witness. They say Christian-dom is the only army that shoots it's own generals. Maybe it's true! In closing, let me borrow some lyrics from an old pop song: C'MON EVERYBODY, SMILE ON YOUR BROTHER, ALL TRY TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER RIGHT NOW! ...All the best.............

[CoreIssue]

We all loose our cool, at times, for sure.

Maintaining balance is the hardest of all things to do.

We are to love our enemies while not being fools who throw pearls before swine. We are to be embracing and understanding while staunchly defending sound doctrine. We are to be patient with other but understand when to shake the dust from our feet and move one. We are to embrace others in fellowship but know when to cast them out.

Balance is hard. Too much either direction is error, and destructive.

Being human makes it even harder on us. We are so flawed and our flesh is our enemy, making the whole of the issues even worse.

Perfection? Not going to come from me.

Not ruffling feathers at times? That also means we get nothing done.

What can I say?:crazy:

[kay-gee]

I have to begin to view anger as any other sin or addiction. I believe that it can be addressed and overcome in ones own life. Why not? We give up drinking, smoking,etc...For many many years I did not see it this way. I sluffed off my temper as being hereditary. Irish temper I called it. Dad had it. Grand-dad had it. Seemed like anyone related to me, had it in varying degrees more or less. Oh well, Thats just me, I would say to any one who had the occasion to witness one of my fits of rage. I once beat a VW engine to pieces with a sledge hammer because I could'nt make one bolt fit. Absolute non-sense! Bible calls it sin! Gal 5:20 It is enough to keep me out of Gods kingdom (vs21). So deal with it! As a vital part of my big life make-over, I'm cleaning house and getting rid of the junk that creates these feelings of rage. I'm learning to deal with each one in the same way as one deals with a single smoking urge when they have quit. This forum is so helpful because I'm writing this stuff out for all to see. By Gods grace I shall overcome!........All the best............

[CoreIssue]

I have to begin to view anger as any other sin or addiction. I believe that it can be addressed and overcome in ones own life. Why not? We give up drinking, smoking,etc...For many many years I did not see it this way. I sluffed off my temper as being hereditary. Irish temper I called it. Dad had it. Grand-dad had it. Seemed like anyone related to me, had it in varying degrees more or less. Oh well, Thats just me, I would say to any one who had the occasion to witness one of my fits of rage. I once beat a VW engine to pieces with a sledge hammer because I could'nt make one bolt fit. Absolute non-sense! Bible calls it sin! Gal 5:20 It is enough to keep me out of Gods kingdom (vs21). So deal with it! As a vital part of my big life make-over, I'm cleaning house and getting rid of the junk that creates these feelings of rage. I'm learning to deal with each one in the same way as one deals with a single smoking urge when they have quit. This forum is so helpful because I'm writing this stuff out for all to see. By Gods grace I shall overcome!........All the best............
Hmmmm. And yet God has wrath and gets angry.

A time to love, a time to hate.

Righteous anger.

I agree all anger is not good. But neither is forgiveness without repentence.

It is a big time struggle for sure. Not only in controlling it but getting the balance correct.:not:

[kay-gee]

Hi. I see as a common theme on many of the threads here particularly dealing with occult or the New Age movements, we are critical of people who seek such. I have watched threads criticizing every one from Freemasons to Knights of Columbus to whoever. Could it possibly be that we "Christians" do such a lousy job at presenting the faith that we drive folks away? We talk up a big storm about the Gospel then when We get a fish on the line we show them our worst side. Quarreling among ourselves about petty doctrinal issues. A fresh heart looking for God and not knowing the basics must be terrified to see all these arguments about pre this and post that, Tribbers, non tribbers etc...I would'nt blame a new-comer as viewing this as little more than organized confusion! We need less Bible thumping and more listening. More students and less teachers.(James3:1) I have decided to become non-evangelical. Yes we are commanded to preach the gospel. I know that, but leave that to the professional preachers that are studied and have the gifts for that. The rest of us should concentrate on being "presenters" of the faith. Live such a Christ-like life that folks can't help but notice. When they want to know about your faith, be ready!(1Peter3:15). In short, I believe we could all use a big dose of humility! All the best.........

[Sid]

So I guess that we should all hold hands and sing Kumbaya http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gifaround the campfire?

Where there is no sound doctrine, there can be peace, tolerance and love.

But Jesus came to bring a sword.

[CoreIssue]

Hi. I see as a common theme on many of the threads here particularly dealing with occult or the New Age movements, we are critical of people who seek such. I have watched threads criticizing every one from Freemasons to Knights of Columbus to whoever.
Because these people present themselves a Christian, when they are not.

Should we stand by and let people be lied to.

If we don't speak up, who will?
Could it possibly be that we "Christians" do such a lousy job at presenting the faith that we drive folks away?
There are those that do that, big.

Saw a guy standing on a highway median with the old Going to Hell billboard around his neck.

That is not only a lousy way to do it, but a destructive way to do it.
We talk up a big storm about the Gospel then when We get a fish on the line we show them our worst side. Quarreling among ourselves about petty doctrinal issues.
Petty?

And how does anyone learn that is not allowed to question others? How does one grow in sanctification if they are not allowed to be challenged?

Yes, our human natures can react strongly to challenge, but is that a sign of being petty or of strong beliefs?

Should we let those, like the RCC, in example, tell people all the works, rituals and such they have to do to be saved and not get denounce it as not Gospel?
A fresh heart looking for God and not knowing the basics must be terrified to see all these arguments about pre this and post that, Tribbers, non tribbers etc...I would'nt blame a new-comer as viewing this as little more than organized confusion!
A seeker really does not belong in such a forum.

Yes, curiosity will draw them.

But, is it a good or bad thing to see such issues are cut and dry? That they do need careful consideration?

I don't see it as confusion. I see it as earnest discussion and seeking, except for those into cult or near cult doctrines. All they are interested in is destructive preaching.

In the confusion one who is truly seeking truth, not to feel good about it, will learn and grow.
We need less Bible thumping and more listening. More students and less teachers.(James3:1) I have decided to become non-evangelical.
I am not an evangelical, but the generic use of the term. I don't like that approach.

Too legalistic.
Yes we are commanded to preach the gospel.
Which Gospel? The one that is By Grace Alone? The one By Works? The one demanding you agree with their every doctrine or else?
I know that, but leave that to the professional preachers that are studied and have the gifts for that.
You mean like those trained in the RCC Seminaries? The liberal denominations who reject sin and even Hell?

Fully trained and don't have a clue what the Bible says.
The rest of us should concentrate on being "presenters" of the faith. Live such a Christ-like life that folks can't help but notice. When they want to know about your faith, be ready!(1Peter3:15). In short, I believe we could all use a big dose of humility! All the best.........
So, if one does not have a title they are not qualified?

Does one have to go to a denominational college to know what they are talking about?

Where did the early preachers and such go to get their degrees? AI guess they were not qualified to preach?

Show me in the Bible where it says one must attend a formal school to be a preacher? It doesn't.

The biggest problem with Christianity is the let the other guy handle it syndrome, I believe.

Too many bench warmers and not enough players on the field.

[Jessie]

Kaygee I agree with core.

and too being a Christian its really important to get it right and learn right.

being a real christian is not easy. I think the world thinks we are to be these
happy go lucky people who get these gift wrapped presents that just float down to us.
never angry, never sad, its all what the world wants the here and now.
no idea of what it means for eternity.

the early christians and still today were martyred.

and of the confusion issue.
I have been growing out of confusion here as I have learned on this board.
which is a big relief!

[kay-gee]

Sid, Those little smilie things singing Kumbaya totally crack me up! How did you do that? All the best..........

[Sid]

Those little smilie things singing Kumbaya totally crack me up! How did you do that? All the best..........


kay-gee:

Right click on just about any image and you will find copy image location.

. . . and it will give you this:

http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gif


But you have to c'np it to the little box that looks likes a scenic of two mountains and you get this:


http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/kumbaya.gif

[kay-gee]

Perhaps it's time to start departmentalizing. Like a filing cabinet. Keep your religion on file until it is asked for. If you always wear the Bible at the end of your sleeves, it is too easy to start swinging with it like an axe. Clubbing people into the ground with the Bible has never been an effective way to win converts. The Bible even refers to itself as a "sword". It appears that there are too many of us that just can't wait to start swinging! Where is the line drawn between demonstrating our own biblical prowess and the genuine concern for the souls of the people that we encounter? Let's all take a lesson from the Pharisees. The actual sect may be gone but the spirit of it is live and well. Instead lets try to wear the invisible Christ on our sleeves. That goes miles further with the lost than our endless prattling away about "sound doctrine" and this and that and blah, blah, blah. Start em off with a nice glass of warm milk. There is lots of time for T-bone steak (doctrine). Help me here folks. I'm trying to be constructive in coming up with ways we can all be better communicators in matters of faith........All the best..............

[CoreIssue]

Boy, do you have it figured out wrong!

On CTZ the forums IS about doctrine and learning.

Which has nothing to do with how we approach others in our daily lives.

If you think I, in example, go around spouting Bible at everyone, you need to think again.

There are far more effective ways than that to impact others to where they want to learn. ;)

[kay-gee]

So, you're not always like this? Alright man, cool. So if we were ever to meet up, You wouldn't want to kick my amill you know what?!! Curious, nothing to do with this topic. Did you serve in Vietnam?........All the best............

[CoreIssue]

So, you're not always like this? Alright man, cool. So if we were ever to meet up, You wouldn't want to kick my amill you know what?!! Curious, nothing to do with this topic. Did you serve in Vietnam?........All the best............
This is a debate, discussion and fellowship board. Of course I am like this here!

Not in Nam, I did intelligence support for Nam, among other 'issues.'

[kay-gee]

I just figured by your age that you would have been Vietnam era. I was putting 2 and 2 together. No reason really. I've never really talked with a Nam vet. It bothers me to think that all I know about it was what I'm exposed to through media and movies. Back then, I was a bit too young to have any sense of reality. All that mattered in those days was smoking up and rock music. I now know what a waste it was. Anyways the past is past. I've taken a hold of the plow and must keep looking forward. I'm still pondering on the question of why do politics and religion bring out the worst in us. Why do I feel personally affronted when people challenge my dearly held beliefs. The same applies to all walks of faith, I think. Whether you are amill, premill, RCC, JW whatever, it's the same. Have you ever taken the finger from a driver on the hi-way, with a "LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker? What's that all about? It plays right into this thing I'm calling Jekyll and Hyde syndrome.A whole heapin' dose of humility would do us some good, myself included. I desire with all my heart to follow in the footsteps of the master. I need to be a little more Jekyll and a lot less Hyde!!!! Anyone got any ideas on this?........All the best.............

[CoreIssue]

I just figured by your age that you would have been Vietnam era. I was putting 2 and 2 together. No reason really. I've never really talked with a Nam vet. It bothers me to think that all I know about it was what I'm exposed to through media and movies. Back then, I was a bit too young to have any sense of reality. All that mattered in those days was smoking up and rock music. I now know what a waste it was. Anyways the past is past.
I can tell you, for a fact, that 80% of what you heard on the news was propoganda, from all sides.

I know what happened.
I've taken a hold of the plow and must keep looking forward. I'm still pondering on the question of why do politics and religion bring out the worst in us. Why do I feel personally affronted when people challenge my dearly held beliefs. The same applies to all walks of faith, I think. Whether you are amill, premill, RCC, JW whatever, it's the same.
Because it is dealing with the very heart on who we are. How much deeper into our being could one get?
Have you ever taken the finger from a driver on the hi-way, with a "LOVE JESUS" bumper sticker? What's that all about? It plays right into this thing I'm calling Jekyll and Hyde syndrome.A whole heapin' dose of humility would do us some good, myself included. I desire with all my heart to follow in the footsteps of the master. I need to be a little more Jekyll and a lot less Hyde!!!! Anyone got any ideas on this?........All the best.............
I know what you mean there.

On the counter point, have you ever noticed those into love all, accept all, be tolerant, are so EXCEPT for Bible believers?

We are humans. So we are a mess, by nature.

[kay-gee]

I read a USA TODAY article that Sid posted today on the topic of people being restless in faith and church hopping and so on. It just re-iterated what I've been saying here so I'm adding this post to Jekyll and Hyde. The question went out as to why so many people were moving from church to church. The replies were fairly civil for about a page so I read on. By about the end of 2 pages the forum had become a war zone for folks firing scriptures and tearing up the LDS's and the 7days and whatever. Agnostic posters were commenting on how quickly the topic had de-railed and were making fun of Christians for their obvious dis-unity. Even I was apolled at so-called God's people being unable to stick to basic question and not quarrelling. SHAME on us. People, we have to get past this! No wonder we're the laughing stock of the secular world! Shape up and get it right and stop using Christs name to endorse your prideful, hateful attitudes towards others. And please stop pounding the "sound doctrine" drum. It's wearing thin. Seeing the percieved error in the doctrine of others is not a license for this kind of behaviour. If you feel it is, then I'm sorry...You have already swallowed the camel...........All the best..........

[Jessie]

oh my,
sound doctrine is of utmost importance. otherwise one can end up like I did in a mess.

you have NO idea of wof hell. I mean that literally.

the bible warned us and we are to watch and understand.

I thank the Lord for Core and those here that sound doctrine was important too,
and has gone well outta their way, people I've never met to help me...

[CoreIssue]

I read a USA TODAY article that Sid posted today on the topic of people being restless in faith and church hopping and so on. It just re-iterated what I've been saying here so I'm adding this post to Jekyll and Hyde. The question went out as to why so many people were moving from church to church. The replies were fairly civil for about a page so I read on. By about the end of 2 pages the forum had become a war zone for folks firing scriptures and tearing up the LDS's and the 7days and whatever.
Because the LDS are not Christians. They are a cult posing as Christians.

Plus the Adventists are fringe Christians at the very best. Very unsound doctrines based on the teachings of a woman with serious medical problems that 'had visions from God.'

One should discuss and debate civilly. I agree on that, for sure.
[QUOTE]Agnostic posters were commenting on how quickly the topic had de-railed and were making fun of Christians for their obvious dis-unity.
Which brings up the issue of the liars who call themselves Agnostic.

A true Agnostic is seeking answers. They would read and think. Not attack.

We have had so-called Agnostics on here. Most turned out to be die hard Atheists.
Even I was apolled at so-called God's people being unable to stick to basic question and not quarrelling.
Depends on how you define Christian.

If you include LDS, then your definition is way to loose.
SHAME on us.
Unfortunately true way too often.

But PC silence and huggy kissy is not an answer either.
People, we have to get past this!
Without sound doctrine and a willingness to discuss honestly, that isn't going to happen.

Our biggest enemy is the denominations. They presever division.
No wonder we're the laughing stock of the secular world! Shape up and get it right and stop using Christs name to endorse your prideful, hateful attitudes towards others. And please stop pounding the "sound doctrine" drum. It's wearing thin.
Actually, God commanded us to defend sound doctrine and correct and rebuke error.'

Your PC thinking is no sound doctrine.

Did you ever stop to think the answer is not embracing all thinking, right or wrong, for unity? But getting it actually correct to a minimal of differences?

Many differences are not to divide or argue over.

But many of the foundational issues ARE what is being argued over.
Seeing the percieved error in the doctrine of others is not a license for this kind of behaviour. If you feel it is, then I'm sorry...You have already swallowed the camel...........All the best..........
Perceived error?

LDS is not perceived error. RCC is not perceived error.

It is anti-Biblical error.

Again, we should be able to discuss without division. I agree.

But silence to not have argument is the grossest of error. It brings in the itching ears we were warned would be in these End Times.

Just tell us pleasing things. We don't want the truth.

That is the mantra of many.

[kay-gee]

I'm not saying that sound doctrine is not important. It would be foolish of me to say other wise. I'm talking more about the delivery. If we just start whacking away at each other we are not helping any body, least of all the cause of Christ. I've come to notice something when it comes to religion, everybodies doctrine is sound doctrine in their own eyes. No need to discuss, just flail away. The one most bloodied loses. My scripture verse says this so that blows your scripture verse outta the water. How dare you believe that. Are you an idiot? These seem to be the way Christians are talking about their doctrines. I'm just trying to point out that if this keeps up we will surely lose the battle. We are told to be shrewd as serpants but GENTLE AS DOVES!....all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

I'm not saying that sound doctrine is not important. It would be foolish of me to say other wise. I'm talking more about the delivery. If we just start whacking away at each other we are not helping any body, least of all the cause of Christ. I've come to notice something when it comes to religion, everybodies doctrine is sound doctrine in their own eyes. No need to discuss, just flail away. The one most bloodied loses. My scripture verse says this so that blows your scripture verse outta the water. How dare you believe that. Are you an idiot? These seem to be the way Christians are talking about their doctrines. I'm just trying to point out that if this keeps up we will surely lose the battle. We are told to be shrewd as serpants but GENTLE AS DOVES!....all the best.........
I am not arguing there are people who do it wrong. They do.

But error the other way is just as bad.

[kay-gee]

Cool! At this point then it becomes the personal responsability of each one of us to get it right. Nuff said.......all the best...........

[kay-gee]

I personally believe that demoninational-ism is the biggest factor in the non-effectiveness of the Christian faith in drawing converts. Always believed that. Always will believe that. I believe that the true church exists and interested parties can seek it out even today and allow Christ to add them to His body, as on the day of Pentacost. I made my decision long ago to be in that number. I have no desire to be any-where else, but at the same time, I refuse to close my mind to others. I must give audience (and a fair one) to any one to see if they are preaching a truth that I have overlooked or neglected. I test what they say at that point by the bible, then accept or refute. In other words I am always seeking for truth. I can never be so arragant as to say: I know everything there is to know and cannot be taught anything. In my journey,I have encountered all kinds of teachings by all kinds of folks and groups. I don't agree with much of the doctrine, because of my testing of it against scripture. Now having said that, I will never give anyone less then the human digity they deserve, regardless of what they believe. I cannot find it in my heart to degrade or belittle someone of a faith I don't personally share. I hope for the same consideration of others who don't share mine. Its a simple matter of doing onto others as you would have them do on to you. If anyone answers this post with more business about "sound doctrine", then there is a communication problem, and the point of what I have just said, is totally missed again as per usual! Develop the ability to listen to the heart. We will all be the better for it ...all the best....

[CoreIssue]

Your points are understood and well taken.

One can disagree with another without degrading or belittling another.

Problem is, in the PC environment in the US and even moreso in Cananda, just the act of disagreeing is seen as degrading or belittling.

[kay-gee]

Right on Bro!............all the best.......

[kay-gee]

Back home, I am PC, here I am FNM.........all the best............

[CoreIssue]

Back home, I am PC, here I am FNM.........all the best............
What does the FNM Party believe in?

[kay-gee]

Good evening Core. PC = Progressive Conservative

FNM = Freedom National Movement
I believe they are similar to republican (conservative) in founding principles. Around here the political scene is a little fuzzy. I cannot vote but my wife can. The election is tommorow. All the best....

[kay-gee]

Folks take their elections real serious around here. Practically every citizen wears a T-shirt in their party colours. Lots of hootin' and hollerin'. Too bad, a lot of booze flowing too. This morning I arrived at the bank about 10 minutes early and through the doors I saw the employees having a prayer circle in the middle of the bank. I thought to myself, wow!, how unique is that? One of the things of love about our island.........all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Sorry to be sceptical so much.

But what kind of prayer group?

See so many WoF and such any more.

[kay-gee]

I don't know, but likely just generic praying before the work day starts. I don't think there is any of that WOF stuff here. However, there are many congregations of a denom called "Church of God of Prophesy". What can you tell me about these guys?...all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I don't know, but likely just generic praying before the work day starts. I don't think there is any of that WOF stuff here. However, there are many congregations of a denom called "Church of God of Prophesy". What can you tell me about these guys?...all the best...
That you have an old style Pentecostal denomination there.

WoF comes from such.

Beliefs. (http://cogop.org/about/truths.html)

[kay-gee]

Interesting. They claim to be Pre-Trib. That should appeal to you. How many right things should a group hit upon to be acceptable? At any rate, what would these guys have in common with WOF? What prayers do WOF pray? PS I just gotta know. What does LOL mean? I see it so often in peoples posts..all the best.....

[InTheWind]

LOL, Laughing out loud. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Interesting. They claim to be Pre-Trib. That should appeal to you.
Catholicism is Amill. That should appeal to you. ;)
How many right things should a group hit upon to be acceptable?
Study up on what WoF believes. Then you can answer that question for yourself concerning them.:nod:
[/quote]At any rate, what would these guys have in common with WOF? What prayers do WOF pray? PS I just gotta know. What does LOL mean? I see it so often in peoples posts..all the best.....[/quote]
LOL = lots of laughs, among other things.

Read and answer for yourself. (http://christiantalkzone.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=118)

[kay-gee]

Dosen't sound like the same group at all. RCC did keep SOME of the apostles original teachings in tact. Where they get into trouble is adding too many traditions to the liturgy.
all the best.........

[CoreIssue]

Dosen't sound like the same group at all. RCC did keep SOME of the apostles original teachings in tact. Where they get into trouble is adding too many traditions to the liturgy.
all the best.........
Really? Like what, on the RCC?

As for the WoF, it shares a ton with Pentecostalism. It IS a form of Pentecostalism.

[kay-gee]

Sometimes I get so frustrated I can't sleep at night. I do not want to lash out at anybody. That is what I preach against. What can I do when someone says something that blatantly contradicts a clear bible teaching. And to make matters worse, they are held as one with some biblical weight. This is exactly why I don't particularly want to be a teacher. The responsibility is great. Oh well I should go to bed and try to get over it for tonight...............all the best.......

[CoreIssue]

Sometimes I get so frustrated I can't sleep at night. I do not want to lash out at anybody. That is what I preach against. What can I do when someone says something that blatantly contradicts a clear bible teaching. And to make matters worse, they are held as one with some biblical weight. This is exactly why I don't particularly want to be a teacher. The responsibility is great. Oh well I should go to bed and try to get over it for tonight...............all the best.......
Lashing out accomplishes nothing, most of the time.

But, there are times when it is good and needed to do. Which is Biblical.

The idea one should never raise their voice, get mad, get strict and such cannot be found in the Bible.

The Apostles taught to listen to all, test what they say against the Bible and accept if good and reject if bad.

It says if someone is in error, work with them to correct that error.

If in gross sinful error, and they refuse to change, treat them as unsaved.

MOST issues of error are not gross error, so one must learn when it hits the point of futility to continue.

Teachers who push gross error are to be openly condemned, for the sake of the listeners.

Sometimes the line between error and ERROR is a tricky one.

We talk to many people, here, who are into error. But would never think of coming down hard on them, as in banning or such.

Others are into error and refuse to discuss. They just want to be the divinely inspired one who will teach and preach and feel no need to discuss. That refusal is gross error, even if the basic error isn't gross.

My meaning is it is not easy to always find the correct path in dealing with such things, but those who jump on everything, acting the big shot, and those who jump on nothing, being too 'loving and harmonious, are actually flip sides of the same error. Meaning being extreme.

Balance.

I am sure many are tired of hearing me use that word, but it is the one all of us need to never forget. Ever.

Not everyone is a teacher. Many teachers are not something else.

To each a gift or gifts of the Holy Spirit. To none all the gifts.

[kay-gee]

This WoF. Is it an actual denom or is it more of an umbrella term encompassing many within that strata of pentecostalism? all the best...

[Jessie]

I'd say the latter but morfing into a demon of itself.

[CoreIssue]

This WoF. Is it an actual denom or is it more of an umbrella term encompassing many within that strata of pentecostalism? all the best...
More of an umbrella.

WoF is one arm/extreme of Pentacostalism. It is the fastest growing arm, with old syle Pentecostalism being replaced by it.

False doctrine can never remain statis, by nature. It either corrects back toward sound doctrine or increasingly gets worse.

The Pentecostal errors are, for the most part, rapidly getting worse.

[kay-gee]

Oh goodness. Glad I aint part of that!

[Jessie]

I can agree with that.

and they sure are getting worse. :(

[kay-gee]

The fellowship to which I belong, has no truck or trade with those groups, so I've just never had any exposure to them, to know. When you do one thing long enough, You don't see whats around you. You see, I'm a great believer in church. Christians belong in fellowship with other like minded. It really is a community. I love the saying, Don't where I first heard..."If you do ever find a perfect church........Don't join............You'll only mess it up!
all the best.........

[kay-gee]

Hurtfulness and insults proceed out of the heart of a man. (Matt 15:19). It is not what goes in, but what comes out that proves the character of a man.
CoreIssue, I obviously don't know what's happening in your personal life. Perhaps you are tired of things, feeling hemmed in by this thing you've created. The feeling that it's consuming time and energy you could devote to other things. I know the feeling myself, having been in similar situations.
I reopened this thread because it's perfect for this point I'm making.

I've chatted with you on other threads, about every day issues. I find you interesting. You have such a sense of things like science and such. I figure you for a guy that would be interesting to hang with for a day, swapping life adventures and insight
But on religion, it's a totally different matter. I ask you in all sincerity, Have you lost your zeal, your glow? If we cause those around us to be intimidated or made to feel small, then I ask, How are we to be "a city on a hill" a light to the world? We both need to get a grip on this End times business. What you so rigorously defend as "sound doctrine", is mere "poppy-cock" to others, esp. the ones you call lurkers! Those are the meat issues. Many watching us need a glass of milk to start with. (Heb 5:13). The end times are going to happen the way they are going to happen. That's all there is to it!
We need to concern ourselves with demonstrating Christ to others in a way that matters today. I want to lead people into that wonderful relationship that one can only have through knowing Christ. Whether or not Christ is reigning now as we speak, You can decide for yourself. As for me, He reigns in my heart. I know He is real. He has proved Himself time and again.
Please stop treating us as annoyances. According to you, I should just give up on the Bible because it will take many years to be able to understand anything. Wow, Talk about the voice of discouragement! The exact opposite of scripture. We are commanded to encourage. (Heb 10:25)
In closing, let me ask this Core, Have you lost your Christian joy?
I have on more than one occasion in my life, met gentlemen in their 90's, so full of Gods Word, it practically seeps out their pores. When you ask them questions or present a puzzle, They totally light up, a twinkle in the eye from another world. Sharing the Word is joy?
When it no longer is .....Quit!....Something to think about!
All the best...........

[CoreIssue]

Hurtfulness and insults proceed out of the heart of a man. (Matt 15:19). It is not what goes in, but what comes out that proves the character of a man.
CoreIssue, I obviously don't know what's happening in your personal life. Perhaps you are tired of things, feeling hemmed in by this thing you've created. The feeling that it's consuming time and energy you could devote to other things. I know the feeling myself, having been in similar situations.
I reopened this thread because it's perfect for this point I'm making.
When constructive criticism becomes an insult the listener, the problem lies with the listener.

Constructive criticism and the art of listen use to be upheld. Now the first is called insults and the second is lost.

What is the point of your constant politically correct statements, KG? It seems that you prefer harmony above truth.

Truth brings true peace and joy. My heart and spirit are at complete peace.

But that does not negate the realities of the world or the issues within the Church. PC being a HUGE one.

I don't get your point.

I've chatted with you on other threads, about every day issues. I find you interesting. You have such a sense of things like science and such. I figure you for a guy that would be interesting to hang with for a day, swapping life adventures and insight

It would be a long day. Plenty to offer from both of us.
But on religion, it's a totally different matter. I ask you in all sincerity, Have you lost your zeal, your glow?
No. If I had lost that, CTZ would not exist. I would not be studying. I would not be concerned with truth.
If we cause those around us to be intimidated or made to feel small, then I ask, How are we to be "a city on a hill" a light to the world?
Hmmmm. I hold back far more than you realize.

A light does not hide under a basket. That makes the light meaningless and weak.

You do not realize just how bad the world is. And how far the Church on the earth has sunk.

If you did, Amillennialism would truly ring hollow to you.
We both need to get a grip on this End times business. What you so rigorously defend as "sound doctrine", is mere "poppy-cock" to others, esp. the ones you call lurkers!
To some. Don't assume you get it as far as they are concerned.

Several of us have been at this years longer than you. You don't step into the forums and grasp all the realities immediately.

The diversity out there is far more extreme than you wish to accept. Those that cling to the Bible for truth are in the small majority.

It is hard to change those who have sought their beliefs from other sources to understanding it all has to conform and agree with the Bible.
Those are the meat issues. Many watching us need a glass of milk to start with. (Heb 5:13). The end times are going to happen the way they are going to happen. That's all there is to it!
And your ho hum attitude about the study of it makes one wonder why you keep after this issue.

Just disregard it if it is so trivial and meaningless. Expect, of course, maybe you cannot because it pokes holes in some of the beliefs you hold nearer and dearer in other areas. ;)
We need to concern ourselves with demonstrating Christ to others in a way that matters today.
Which does not exclude study to advance one's own sanctification.
I want to lead people into that wonderful relationship that one can only have through knowing Christ.
Paul criticised people who, after years, had not gone past the basics. Said they were still babies on mother's milk.

Get the point? We are to grow.

Whether or not Christ is reigning now as we speak, You can decide for yourself. As for me, He reigns in my heart. I know He is real. He has proved Himself time and again.

Different issue. Different subject. And he reigns thus in myself, as well.
Please stop treating us as annoyances.
Annoyances, no. But if you think declaring false doctrine is trivial, just simply, 'a different point of view,' then your love of truth is lackluster and weak.

Instead of whining about the need to just let it ago and accept, how about delving in and getting it right?
According to you, I should just give up on the Bible because it will take many years to be able to understand anything. Wow, Talk about the voice of discouragement!
You missed the point!

You come on and start making declarations about truth, about how we are wrong, about how we approach the Bible incorrectly, and so on.

But when pushed, you admit you have not EVEN STUDIED the issues out!

Now, who is the one who needs to step back and rethink themselves? You.

No one instantly 'get's it.' Paul went and studied for a solid year or more before he began his ministry. The disciples were with Jesus for 3.5 years. Christ studied the whole of his youth.

If you don't see growth requires study, I don't know what to say.

And yea, the deeper stuff does require many years to study, absorb, organize and deduce. It isn't instant, as you want it to be and seem to think it is.

One can 'get' the salvation thing quickly. And praise God for that.

But the rest takes time. Some a short amount of time, some long amounts of time.

After 46 years of study I am still discovering new things. And love ever moment of it.

The exact opposite of scripture. We are commanded to encourage. (Heb 10:25)

I am encouraging you to STUDY. False promises of instant success are not Biblical, either.

In closing, let me ask this Core, Have you lost your Christian joy?

No. But you seem to have failed to actually discover the full scope and depth of it.

That comes from plunging in and discovering more and more truths.

You are missing that joy.

I have on more than one occasion in my life, met gentlemen in their 90's, so full of Gods Word, it practically seeps out their pores. When you ask them questions or present a puzzle, They totally light up, a twinkle in the eye from another world. Sharing the Word is joy?

Bingo!

And that fullness of God's word came from decades of STUDY, which you seem to disdain.

Growing up I knew a wonderful ancient Christian, Mr. White. Told me to STUDY and never stop.

Dr. Dick St Marie, of the Emmaus Bible College would come from Chicago, many miles away, and encourage me to study, ask questions and grow.

These men were blessed with knowledge and held bright lights. NEITHER would back down from calling false doctrine false.

Nor would they tell others to do so, in the name of being PC.

Where is that today, in the modern world? Sadly, almost gone.
When it no longer is .....Quit!....Something to think about!
All the best...........
After 46 years of study, my join and hunger have never diminished. Nor has it in anyone I have ever met who gets the shovel out and starts digging.

It only become stale in those who think there is nothing else to learn.

They become anchors on those around them. Discouraging them from growth and study.

They are to fodder of the false doctrines sweeping through the Church today.

I won't go there. Why should you?

Study, learn and grow. Stop telling others they do not need to.

[a.baker]

Kay-Gee, On the anger thing it is o.k. sometimes. Anger is really an emotion used trying to make something positive. Anger is one of the most misunderstood emotions. Call it my German background or my up bringing of a hot temper dad but I have a hard time with this emotion as well. Don't want to make excuses but I am also young which I think plays a big role in that. But anger is a good thing at times. (again that balance thing) Like for example someone might get angry with their child for lying. You get angry because your trying to make this a positive experience for them. And I know God does get angry with us as well because again Hes trying to make something positive. Gods concern with this is that He is concerned about how we handled a situation. As long as you truely try. Remember Jesus got angry a time or two ( that one story about people trying to turn His temple into a market) But be careful because once someone shows anger it is a domino effect and the other person probably won't listen to what you have to say. Which is why so many of my friends won't listen to me talk about God because someone in the past made them angry in a discussion about God, that now I can't even say His name without them getting angry at me or offensive to the extreme. And I will pray for them since they are missing out on love and everything else wonderful God has to offer!

[kay-gee]

a. baker. I love your cheerful positive attitude. That's good!

I am likely close to twice your age, and I gotta tell you, it doesnt get all that much easier to deal with. I saw on another thread tonight about demons and stuff. I've always thought that those kinds of demons live inside you in sort of way. I struggle with the demon of anger. It haunts me. Always there lurking, looking for ways to surface. You know the comic book character The Incredible Hulk? Like that only I don't turn big and green! By striving and by continual prayer, I have been able to tune it down a lot. I can have explosions that last a few seconds to a minute, and then I'm fine and return to singing a song or something. Much of the time, it's over inanimate things or situations beyond my control. I have never beat anyone up, or anything like that. I couldn't really hurt someone. Not in my nature. Silly spur of the moment things like pitching an expensive camera out in sea because it wont do what I want it to do. Things like that. It is sin, pure and simple. I have to work on it daily.
all the best...

[kay-gee]

Core. Please be frank with me. What have I done to Peeve you off so much. I enjoy being a part of CTZ, And I really don't want to get turfed. It happened before. I said some really bitter things to someone (Dosen't appear to be on the board anymore) If my zeal for discussion is getting overbearing and ridiculous, then just tell me. I am man enough to take it. If I have wronged anyone, I will make amends. If my belief system is that much at odds, with the theme of the board, then tell me that too. I can adapt that too, so as not to soil the minds of the lurkers and new comers to the site that are searching for truth! Having said all that, let me be the voice of love and forgiveness on CTZ. With your penchant for doctrine and justice, we can really reach the perfect balance. The cause of Christ will be served and taken to another leverl. What do you think?
all the best

[CoreIssue]

Yep, we all have emotions and sin, KG.

But they are not demons. Demons are spiritual beings. As are angels.

There is spiritual warfare all around us.

Really, what do you think the gift of discernment of spirits is and exists for?

No, it ain't being a human lie detector, as those who want to deny such activity want to say.

[CoreIssue]

Core. Please be frank with me. What have I done to Peeve you off so much. I enjoy being a part of CTZ, And I really don't want to get turfed. It happened before. I said some really bitter things to someone (Dosen't appear to be on the board anymore) If my zeal for discussion is getting overbearing and ridiculous, then just tell me. I am man enough to take it. If I have wronged anyone, I will make amends. If my belief system is that much at odds, with the theme of the board, then tell me that too. I can adapt that too, so as not to soil the minds of the lurkers and new comers to the site that are searching for truth! Having said all that, let me be the voice of love and forgiveness on CTZ. With your penchant for doctrine and justice, we can really reach the perfect balance. The cause of Christ will be served and taken to another leverl. What do you think?
all the best
You have never gotten it, KG.

I am not peeved at you, but disappointed that you don't listen, weight and consider what is said to you.

I know you think you do, but you don't.

Actually, I am glad to have you here glad you want to be here.

Do you really think you would be back here if I doubted your sincerity or heart? You don't know me if you do.

I have banned a good number of cult folk. But never before giving them every chance to change or follow the rules. You ARE the first I have let back. ;)

All you have said is still here. Nothing was deleted when you took your vacation.

Understand, someone says something Biblical wrong, if I don't say it, someone else will. Don't ever think I am alone in being ardent on sound doctrine.

Is it to put people down? No. It is to get it right, especially if someone is saying something inaccurate to a seeker. Cannot let that go unchallenged.

Do we comment on every little thing said incorrectly? No. Only what cannot be let go.

Are we going to not challenge error, in the name of harmony. Dream on. Really.

Have you ever noticed ITW abounds with love and patience in his posts? Rarely getting corrective?

Do you see him challenged for it? No!

Why? Because he balances love with justice and truth. There is no love without justice or truth.

Cults can ooze love. All the way into Hell.

Say it correctly, and you won't be challenged.

But when you present it in the framework of unconditional forgiveness, sound doctrine counts less than harmony or preface even a legit statement with an doctrinal error, it will get mentioned.

Seekers do not need confusion. Or error.

Challenge all you want. But be ready to back it with real proof, if questioned.

Golden Rule, and one you not I never fail to abide by myself.

[a.baker]

Oh the anger demon. That one knows me well and so does the one that brings on waves of sadness when something big happens. But when I had a bad situation recently when my husband got into a car accident and killed a man walking in the road I happened to know pretty well was super hard. I was involved in that situation because I knew the man that passed away, my husband was the one who had the accident, I saw all of my friends in pain, worked at the funeral home the man was taken to and received a lot of death threats, plus some. But through the whole thing I never lost hope and thinking about God and God kept that demon of depressions away from me. God wouldn't have that. I feel so loved in the way God protected me at that moment.

[CoreIssue]

Oh the anger demon. That one knows me well and so does the one that brings on waves of sadness when something big happens. But when I had a bad situation recently when my husband got into a car accident and killed a man walking in the road I happened to know pretty well was super hard. I was involved in that situation because I knew the man that passed away, my husband was the one who had the accident, I saw all of my friends in pain, worked at the funeral home the man was taken to and received a lot of death threats, plus some. But through the whole thing I never lost hope and thinking about God and God kept that demon of depressions away from me. God wouldn't have that. I feel so loved in the way God protected me at that moment.
I don't want to take away the significance of what you are going through.

But don't fall into the pit of calling emotions demons. They are not. They are emotions.

Emotions can be even more destructive than demons. Because they come from our very being, not the outside.

[a.baker]

What about a thought. Like satan trying to sweet talk you, or talking you in or out of something. A thought that you can't believe even entered your mind. Not an emotion but thinking. Is that emotions or satan?

[CoreIssue]

What about a thought. Like satan trying to sweet talk you, or talking you in or out of something. A thought that you can't believe even entered your mind. Not an emotion but thinking. Is that emotions or satan?
Demons can urge, whisper and such, in a Christian's ear.

But actually putting a thought there, no.

It can be so easy for the flesh to go with it that it seems to be ones own thought, because we make it our own.

Remember, our sin natures are capable of anything. It is only and issue of how far one lets it go.

A non-Christian can actually be taken over, when they surrender to influences and such, to a point that such allow complete take over of ones actions.

That is why the Bible warns to be careful in casting out demons. If the person didn't want the demon out, they will come back with more demons or a stronger demon will move in.

[Jessie]

how can they whisper but not plant a thought?

[CoreIssue]

how can they whisper but not plant a thought?
Plant a thought, as in making your brain think it.

Suggestion is different than actually putting in. as if your own.

[Jessie]

suggest then we think it?

[CoreIssue]

Yes.

Knows one's weaknesses, because demons are super intelligent, compared to humans.

They know the buttons to push to get one there, if they can be gotten there.

[a.baker]

Can demons actually take ones life to cause others pain? For example the car accident. Did a demon make my husband and the other driver blind at that moment? The man that was hit, was a God angry person and always stating" I am God" and into drugs and hated everyone and grew up in an alcoholic home and so on. The mans father didn't seem to care much about his sons death (maybe because of his alcoholic abuse). The man was young and left behind a 3yr. old son. He was following in his fathers steps with the alcohol. He was a walking drunk in the middle of the road on a mon. at 11p.m. in snowy weather.Reports show that the mans alcohol limit should of made him be unconscious. They couldn't believe he was still walking. The sky's were clear but the roads were iced bad. My husband was coming home from night school. When the impact happened my husbands eyes were totally on the road and he was deciding if he should turn around and see what hit our car ( the windshield blew apart) or say it was a deer. But something from the impact damage told him something was terribly wrong so he turned the car around to investigate. Hearing an awful gagging breathing noise he found what had really happened. Not being to bring himself to this unknown person he ran to a house and phoned the police and such. The other driver didn't see this man in the road either. So the other driver never stopped. The other driver was driving on the opposite side of the road and kept on going. Scientific facts proves that this man was walking in the middle of the road and so its so hard to understand how did both my husband and other driver not see him? Remind you this happened in the country where theres only a village 1.5mi. down and so it is kinda isolated around there. I don't really know what I need but I need to talk about this. My husband can't talk (blame on himself), everyone writes this off that this man was going no where,so people are being so unsupportive ( even Christian type people I knew then) and acting like I shouldn't be feeling anything bad, and so on. But I can't stop thinking of his son, family, and me and this man knew each other in school well. We weren't friends but we had the same friends. Sorry but back to my original question; can demons make someone physically blind to cause pain?

[a.baker]

I must add to my husbands defense on even thinking about turning the car around to investigate after the impact, we hit 4 deer on different occasions that same season. After the accident with the man walking, we got our car all fixed and then we hit another deer 2wks later and again messed up our car pretty bad. Got that fixed after a short few couple of months and than hit one more deer. Luckily we live in a city now! Still drive that same car!

[Jessie]

could it more have been the glare on the road blinding your dh?

with ice and clear skys and maybe what the guy was wearing too.
the colors might have blended in.

I dont think a demon could do that. only God can choose when its a persons time.
but of course we dont tempt him either. sounds like bad judgement on the guys part.

its gotta be hard for your dh. real hard. hopefully in time he will come to terms with it.
I bet he feels just awful.

and for others to say oh so and so is going nowhere. thats wrong too.
esp. from Christians! that indifference just is so wrong!
cold and cruel.

are the deer just running right out in front of your car?

[a.baker]

Yes the man was wearing a dark sweatshirt and jeans. It was about 20 degrees outside that night. My husband said that as the other car was passing there was a slap of slush on my husbands windshield and then the windshield exploded. And yes I understand my husband must feel horrible and I hope that one day he can face this and I will be there for him. But I need support too and I feel ignored. Is that selfish? I tend to think it is but these feelings I have are still there. Demons trying to interact with my feelings? When I start to think about things I can become depressed to where I feel no emotions at all, can't even think of how I got there.

Lets see one deer was already dead laying in the middle of the road on the expressway ran over it with car (husband driving), two of the different occasions with deer collisions was a deer running full speed out into the side of our car (t bone, I was driving both times), another one was I saw it coming but I didn't stop in time and it kinda rolled down the whole side of our car (me driving I think that deer was sick), another one hit the grill of our car (husband driving) luckily that one caused no severe damage, and the last one was when my husband was driving his dads truck because our car was broken and the deer hit the grill and just cracked it a little bit. Not in that order though. My mother in law has had lots of accidents within the 6yrs. or so as well. One cow, one ambulance, missed stop sign, missed blind spot, couple of fender benders and so on. My mother and father have also had crazy ones in the past 3yrs. lucky to be alive! I have had one about 7yrs. ago and I am lucky to be alive as well. Ruined a 1968 Buick Skylark though... my first car! Car accidents are just the start with the crazy things that have happened to me in the last 7 yrs. Oh our car was stolen when I was 6mths. pregnant (sorry another car incident).Sorry don't mean to go on and on but now that we are talking about car accidents... all done. Have many other areas of bad luck I would also like to talk about.

[CoreIssue]

Can demons actually take ones life to cause others pain? For example the car accident. Did a demon make my husband and the other driver blind at that moment? The man that was hit, was a God angry person and always stating" I am God" and into drugs and hated everyone and grew up in an alcoholic home and so on. The mans father didn't seem to care much about his sons death (maybe because of his alcoholic abuse). The man was young and left behind a 3yr. old son. He was following in his fathers steps with the alcohol. He was a walking drunk in the middle of the road on a mon. at 11p.m. in snowy weather.Reports show that the mans alcohol limit should of made him be unconscious. They couldn't believe he was still walking. The sky's were clear but the roads were iced bad. My husband was coming home from night school. When the impact happened my husbands eyes were totally on the road and he was deciding if he should turn around and see what hit our car ( the windshield blew apart) or say it was a deer. But something from the impact damage told him something was terribly wrong so he turned the car around to investigate. Hearing an awful gagging breathing noise he found what had really happened. Not being to bring himself to this unknown person he ran to a house and phoned the police and such. The other driver didn't see this man in the road either. So the other driver never stopped. The other driver was driving on the opposite side of the road and kept on going. Scientific facts proves that this man was walking in the middle of the road and so its so hard to understand how did both my husband and other driver not see him? Remind you this happened in the country where theres only a village 1.5mi. down and so it is kinda isolated around there. I don't really know what I need but I need to talk about this. My husband can't talk (blame on himself), everyone writes this off that this man was going no where,so people are being so unsupportive ( even Christian type people I knew then) and acting like I shouldn't be feeling anything bad, and so on. But I can't stop thinking of his son, family, and me and this man knew each other in school well. We weren't friends but we had the same friends. Sorry but back to my original question; can demons make someone physically blind to cause pain?
In situations like this, yes they can.

The dead man allowed himself to be put into this position.

Demons could have done this just to kill him, to ensure he never made it to God. And maybe did it in this way to try to bring others down.

No one can say for certainity.

Or, it could have been nothing more than a very sad and distrubing accident.

We don't know. No way to know.

Demons could have known this was going to happen and brought other events into reality to add to the impact.

We just cannot know.

[Jessie]

wow. I would'nt have thought they could do that.

I was going to post, that people do see weird things so maybe it was possible,
but I thought they cant do that.

I stand corrected.

on the deer my dh was up by spokane maybe 10 yrs ago, said they just ran beside the car. :eek:

sounds like your going thru a lot too!

and nope its not selfish of you to have your feelings, it impacted your life too!

I'm curious just how much do demons know ahead of time?????

[CoreIssue]

Look at so many nations who had worshipped idols and did human sacrfices.

That is a perversion of the cross, caused by demons acting as gods.

They knew the cross was coming.

How much foreknowledge demons have, I do not know. But it is obvious they have some.

How many people have been murdered, assualted and such by demon possessed people?

Demons are powerful. Only fools act like they can personally overcome them.

[Jessie]

Look at so many nations who had worshipped idols and did human sacrfices.

That is a perversion of the cross, caused by demons acting as gods.

They knew the cross was coming.

How much foreknowledge demons have, I do not know. But it is obvious they have some.

How many people have been murdered, assualted and such by demon possessed people?

Demons are powerful. Only fools act like they can personally overcome them.

do they know what we think? or just obtain knowledge thru watching?

[CoreIssue]

Look at so many nations who had worshipped idols and did human sacrfices.

That is a perversion of the cross, caused by demons acting as gods.

They knew the cross was coming.

How much foreknowledge demons have, I do not know. But it is obvious they have some.

How many people have been murdered, assualted and such by demon possessed people?

Demons are powerful. Only fools act like they can personally overcome them.

do they know what we think? or just obtain knowledge thru watching?
I would think they can tell a lot by just watching us. They are very old and very smart.

[InTheWind]

As in the book of Job i thought Satan or his crew could do nothing without Gods permision?

[CoreIssue]

As in the book of Job i thought Satan or his crew could do nothing without Gods permision?
Not item by item.

God sets the parameters and demons operate within them.

As with us. he sets limits and we have freewill within them.

[InTheWind]

Demons could have done this just to kill him, to ensure he never made it to God. And maybe did it in this way to try to bring others down.



It was this quote that made me question, i would not think God would allow that unless it was Gods will.

[a.baker]

What is it that makes my soul constantly feel like its under attack? Is that demons or feelings? Right now I feel really angry and bottled up ( I am also going through some changes of bad habits for God). I feel like I am almost out of control inside but I can some how keep my cool to a certain extant on the outside. I pray about it and almost feel instantly better but there is something there that just won't seem to go away. Something very negative and troublesome. I pray about it all the time. I feel I need this fellowship to stay alive and keep fighting. Is that a demon trying to drag me down with constantly feeling like this? I ask because I don't know how to take this in? It never seemed so real or dramatic until I truly and soulfully found Him. So that makes me wonder if its a demon. Also could it be that now I have found Him maybe my eyes are just open to things they weren't before and so now I can really see what is going on. Sometimes when I think I feel an emergency, like I am giving up hope or something. But I don't. I just keep praying.The problems come and go in waves. If I am not being attacked on the outside, I am in the inside. I feel my heart and soul screaming HELP! I as well have many unresolved issues from the past with people that I will probably never see again some being strangers. I am telling this I guess because it is coming at me like a brick wall. My friend was molested over and over again when we were in junior high for about 3yrs. and it was our "secret". My friend got gang raped in front of me while I was stuck in the bathroom. I had verbal and some physical abuse growing up, got into many variety of drugs within the last few years (almost cleared up. have one more issue with that), have had all kinds of troubles with people cheating and lying and stealing and back stabbing me, and the list still goes on and on.Don't want to bore anyone out there. I am sure no one wants to hear it all since everyone has lots of problems but I already feel a little better just being able to type that in without someone interrupting me and saying oh yeah well this happened to me and start talking about them own selfs (when people do that it feels like they are not even listening to you. they always have to have one up on you). I again apologize for the drawn out reply of problems but I guess that is because I am finding someone who is actually listening to me. P.S. Need a break from my 3yr. old! I have to figure something out to go to Church!

[InTheWind]

Sorry a.baker but i don`t have many answers for ya other than what i have to do which is continually talk myself into forgetting the past and looking ahead.
Realize we are leaky vessels and need a refilling of the HS daily so pray for that.
Depression is a physical problem and medication for it can help, and others praying for you which i will certainly do. :pray::hug::pray:

[Jessie]

you cant go back and unscramble the past. Life is an ebb and flow.
whats really helped me is to tell the demons to leave in Jesus name daily.

at first it was all the time, now not so much.

do you know whats making you angry?

gotta get the anger out for me that was really frightening.

(sometimes I relate things in my life so I can talk clearer hope thats ok.
not trying to "have one up" its just how I communicate.)

ITW had great advice for me not long ago, I had to shake the dust off my feet and move on. and its sure been better for me too!
I was like stuck in the past.

[a.baker]

No I wasn't saying anyone here was trying to have one up on me. I was saying whenever I try to go to the other people in my life thats how the situation gets treated. Or they will say well at least you have this that or the other, and that makes me feel my problems aren't trivial enough to think about or have feelings for. My mother does this when she says well at least you have food and shelter. Which is true but I go to my mother for wisdom or just a supportive loving talk and she will say this to just write off my problems so I am not allowed to say much more about the conversation. Or if I go to one of my friends they will interrupt me and say oh this happened to this girl I know and so by the time we are done with the conversation it has gotten trailed off to who knows. It seems to me that people in my mothers generation weren't allowed to talk about how they felt much. People would keep to themselves a lot more (maybe its because they don't want to be a burden to anybody?). I do know that my generation is definitely more selfish. For example: what about you? Do this for yourself you deserve it. Whats in it for you? Oh no an accident, sue them. ect... But at least I don't go to that extreme. Went to bed last night to get some sleep in a 5 hr. time frame and I probably woke up like 10 times. So something must be bothering me. Maybe I am letting the feeling of worry set in. But I ask myself for what? I am not worried about anything and don't need to be. Thinking too much can't be for ones good... can it? That must be my problem. When I go to school I will have something else to think about I suppose.:eek::scratch::tiphat:

[a.baker]

Sorry just wanted to add... moving on...

[Jessie]

:hug:

[a.baker]

Thank-x Jessie!!!

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I enjoy being a part of CTZ, And I really don't want to get turfed. It happened before. I said some really bitter things to someone (Dosen't appear to be on the board anymore)

Oh, I'm still here lurking and reading. :tiphat:

Just haven't been posting as much.

How ya doin'?

[kay-gee]

Hi Chrystal, long time no see (no talk...hee...hee), I'm doing well. How about you? I know you were have some terrible health issues. I hope and pray things are turning a corner.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Hi guys. Be careful not to be too quick in blaming demons for all the things that go wrong. I've come to realize that I need to claim ownership of the bad things that have happened to me. I speaking particularly in terms of addictions and such, not about happenstances, such as accidents etc... which are the work of mere chance not evil spirits. What I guess i'm trying to say is that some of my worst prediciments were the results of my own selfishness and sin. True happiness can only be attained by a wholehearted unrestrained commitment to follow Christ!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Hi guys. Be careful not to be too quick in blaming demons for all the things that go wrong.
Already said, many times.
I've come to realize that I need to claim ownership of the bad things that have happened to me. I speaking particularly in terms of addictions and such, not about happenstances, such as accidents etc... which are the work of mere chance not evil spirits.
What you do to yourself, yes.

So, the Bible has it all wrong speaking of the working of demons. Hmmmm.

How every modern of you.

Of course chance happens! We have all said it.

But a blanket dismissal of demonic activity is foolish.

I quess all good things are also from you as well? Never any angelic or Holy Spirit intervention?
What I guess i'm trying to say is that some of my worst prediciments were the results of my own selfishness and sin.
Agree.

True happiness can only be attained by a wholehearted unrestrained commitment to follow Christ!

Which has nothing to do with the reality of demonic activity.

God does NOT block all such activity. A little thing called freewill, not only yours, but of those around you that impact you. Or you them.

Complex issue. Not simple.

[a.baker]

Coreissue I think maybe you have misunderstood a little of what kaygee was trying to say. You seem to always jump to an argument or dispute with him. He could of written a 2 page thread to say what he meant but I think you would of jumped on him any ways. He was just talking about accidents are accidents. People don't blame themselves much when the finger of blame needs to pointed at them (modern America). He was still acknowledging that demons do exists he just didn't need to spell that out; thought it would be a given. Speaking in tongues for example is also in the bible stated as a gift from God. I personally never heard one speak in tongues and if I did it would creep me out. I know speaking of tongues does still exists its just super rare. I know demons do exist and are more common then one would expect. Thats all not picking sides just observing.

[CoreIssue]

No. I don't think I jumped too early.

There are a lot of lurkers reading here. Many who don't have much, if any, understanding of Biblical Chrisitianity.

Clarity is a must.

And KG is very deep into PC, Amil and non-literalism.

Denial of demonic activity, or extreme limitation of such is a common trait.

While not all do, non-literalists play down the depth of human sin nature. Most just don't see, or will not accept, the true depths of it.

Too many debates over too many years to not see where these issues are leading to.

If KG did accept such demonic attacks, there was no reason to challenge it to begin with, since it had already been stated that to blame demons for everything was wrong.

And on the side note of Tongues. Yes, the gift is still given. But no, not as Pentecostals definite it, being a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which actually occurs at repentence, to everyone born-again. Not later, and not to all, as they believe.

It is the way we are born again.

[a.baker]

Yeah that is why i can't take the whole Pentecostal religion. I researched it and it says that speaking in tongues is one of their main things. I think when done in such a forceful manor it can turn into something thats unwelcomed. I can't seem to agree with just one denomination of any. I will just stick to my bible.

[kay-gee]

Just wondering. What has my amil position got to do with demonic activity? Also literalism and PC? I take it that my belief systems offend you, and now no matter what I talk about, These labels will be back to haunt me.
Question: do you believe that insanity and epilepsy are the results of demons? They were in NT times. It's obvious that something has changed from then to now! The diseases they attributed to demonic activity in those days, can now be explained medically and scientifically. You Yourself, quote "Knowledge will increase"
As for the tongues, they served their purpose in the 1st century church, in spreading the gospel and verifying the authenticity of the apostles. They were in fact human languages. The miraculous part is they were spoken by people not trained to speak those languages. The bone I've always had with Pentecostalism comes from the last half of 1 Cor 13. It appears to me that when the perfect revelation of Gods will for man (Bible) was complete, there was no need for the other miracles.
a,baker, please don't under estimate the need and the value of human fellowship. There are no Lone Ranger Christians. If you have been saved, then you have been added to His body. It's all about what you bring to the church, not what you take from it! I'm trying to be helpful. The fellowship needs YOU and YOUR gifts!
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Just wondering. What has my amil position got to do with demonic activity?
Your words and the fact Amil is extremely none literal.

Whether you realize it, or not, there are belief patterns.

Those that belief in X tend, but not always, believe in Y.

Certain doctrines X are incompatible with docrines Y. So, you see one and you know the another is not accepted.

Simple reality.
Also literalism and PC?
Simple reality. You cannot get PC thinking out the Bible if you read literally.

And again, your own words, on many topics, have been very PC.
I take it that my belief systems offend you,
No. Does not offend me. But false doctrine is false doctrine.

What is with liberal thinking feeling to disagree with them is to be offended.

Cliches and push buttons to try to discredit those who disagree.

I have always given you Biblical REASONS why I disagree. You have not given me such in return.

And please, it is so obvious you think you are playing 'the game' in many discussions. It IS the favorite approach to those who cannot nail down proofs.

But that proves nothing, except you have no proofs to offer.

Just simple reality.
and now no matter what I talk about, These labels will be back to haunt me.
Because they apply!

Someone comes on asking question X or personal issue Y. You put up answers based on your thinking.

And you don't expect to get comments on it when it isn't Biblical? Really?
Question: do you believe that insanity and epilepsy are the results of demons?
There is disease, neurological damage, birth defects, personal choice and demons.

Each is a candidate until narrowed down to the one it actually is.
They were in NT times.
In some cultures. Yes.

In periods of history. Yes.

But in the Bible. NO! All the above are shown in the Bible.

If you believe the Bible labels all of them demonic, they you indeed do not believe in an infallible Bible. Period.

It's obvious that something has changed from then to now! The diseases they attributed to demonic activity in those days, can now be explained medically and scientifically. You Yourself, quote "Knowledge will increase"

So, the Bible is a social and historical book, not a never changing truth?

Yea. How very modern of you.
As for the tongues, they served their purpose in the 1st century church, in spreading the gospel and verifying the authenticity of the apostles. They were in fact human languages. The miraculous part is they were spoken by people not trained to speak those languages.
Not always. Paul said he spoke in angelic tongues.

But indeed, in 99% of the mentions they were unknown tongues of man.

But not around anymore? You need to study 1 Cor. Says they ARE still around.

And if you don't have a gift or know of someone who does, you need to step back and wonder why.

The bone I've always had with Pentecostalism comes from the last half of 1 Cor 13. It appears to me that when the perfect revelation of Gods will for man (Bible) was complete, there was no need for the other miracles.

Gifts are tools, not revelation. Tools to use in ministering the Gospel.
a,baker, please don't under estimate the need and the value of human fellowship. There are no Lone Ranger Christians. If you have been saved, then you have been added to His body. It's all about what you bring to the church, not what you take from it! I'm trying to be helpful. The fellowship needs YOU and YOUR gifts!
all the best...
Balance.

What value is there in non-Biblical fellowship?

[a.baker]

Yes we must have human fellowship. This is what I gather from the bible... God gave us feelings for a purpose and what purpose? Freewill. We just need to learn how to use them the way God had intended. I think God wants us to suppress some feelings like anger, worrying, ect. and even some of the thoughts that may pop into our heads. But there are other feelings to endure in like love, sadness, joy, ect. We don't want to get bottled up either. But yes these all have have balance to go with. We can't suppress all emotion especially sadness and love because we will turn into robots. God loves us humans more then His angels because we have free will. The thing I don't understand though is why did He give mental sickness like bipolar and such? That makes one be tormented doesn't it? Many mental illnesses seem to be inner torment that someone didn't purposely go out and seek but yet they have to live with it and in many cases can't escape it. It also means that they act in a way of no control over their heads or hearts and where is freewill in that? That would make Gods purpose in a way be throwing one to the fire without a chance. I know God would not do that. That is why I don't believe in mental medicine but it is there. And for some reason it does exist. Since I have been reading the bible I have decided to not go to school all together because everything I need to learn and is meaningful to Him is all in the bible. School would only bring me a burden of constant worry. I would be so stressed out and busy I wouldn't have time for the bible or God. Who needs that? So I decided to not go to school. As long as I play my part in hard work and finding jobs and and enduring in my part of the responsibilities the bible says I never have to worry over food or being sick because He will take care of His own. God is my health insurance. It sure does make me feel at rest from my burdens! My worry is gone.

[CoreIssue]

Yes we must have human fellowship. This is what I gather from the bible... God gave us feelings for a purpose and what purpose? Freewill. We just need to learn how to use them the way God had intended. I think God wants us to suppress some feelings like anger, worrying, ect. and even some of the thoughts that may pop into our heads. But there are other feelings to endure in like love, sadness, joy, ect. We don't want to get bottled up either. But yes these all have have balance to go with. We can't suppress all emotion especially sadness and love because we will turn into robots. God loves us humans more then His angels because we have free will.
Yep. Freewill requires many abilities to exist that we have to use carefully. Agree.

Angels have freewill, as well.
The thing I don't understand though is why did He give mental sickness like bipolar and such?
He does not give such.

Sin nature allows sin that deteriorate us genetically, health and otherwise.

What one generation does absolutely impacts many, if not all, that come after.

It has caused the extinction of more than one family line.

And God, if it is necessary for freewill to work, does allow demons to cause disease like affects upon those they either possess or affect.

But God didn't create these things. He allowed them to come into existence.
That makes one be tormented doesn't it?
For many it is. For others it is a form of escape. Complex issue.
Many mental illnesses seem to be inner torment that someone didn't purposely go out and seek but yet they have to live with it and in many cases can't escape it.
Really complex. This gets into issues of innocence, personal responsibility and more.

Just because someone doesn't do drugs and such does not mean they didn't allow it into their lives. Very complex.
It also means that they act in a way of no control over their heads or hearts and where is freewill in that?
This can be the results of personal decisions for some. So, even if they don't like it once it hits, they caused it.

Absolutely, for others, injury and such takes away some controls. Which brings in the issues of God holding them personally responsible or not.

What one does not know is sin or has absolutely no way to stop from doing it, even if they know it is wrong, does not hold one personally responsible.

It is very complex. So, while many want to the boil the Bible down to extreme siplicity, or reject it because they hold it to be over-simplistic, it isn't.

With time you will see the Bible is anything but simple on such things.
That would make Gods purpose in a way be throwing one to the fire without a chance.
No. That isn't correct.

Innocence, responsibility, sin knowledge and other issues all weigh in here.

Just to commit a sin does not make one accountable for a sin. A child, before accountability, in example, are not judged for their sins because the don't know what sin is.
I know God would not do that.
Yes. But seeing how it works takes time to dig into. And it will never be easy to deal with, ever.
That is why I don't believe in mental medicine but it is there. And for some reason it does exist.
Psychadeltic medicines come from those who reject the existence of sin and spirit, in the main.

They are trying to fix evil, which they deny exists, by calling it biochemical.
Since I have been reading the bible I have decided to not go to school all together because everything I need to learn and is meaningful to Him is all in the bible.
What kind of school you mean here, I am not sure about.

But the Bible teaches about reality and responsibilities about or earthly existence.

School is part of that.

And indeed, some parts of school aid in learning the Bible, such as linquistics, semantics, logic and such.
School would only bring me a burden of constant worry. I would be so stressed out and busy I wouldn't have time for the bible or God. Who needs that? So I decided to not go to school. As long as I play my part in hard work and finding jobs and and enduring in my part of the responsibilities the bible says I never have to worry over food or being sick because He will take care of His own. God is my health insurance. It sure does make me feel at rest from my burdens! My worry is gone.
Sorry, you are not promised health, wealth and prosperity.

Many dear Christians have cancer, woes raising famiies, diabetes, injuries and on and on.

Expect tribulation in ones life.

Yes, expect God to be there. But no, don't look to a smooth road.

They are slaughtering and making Chrisitan life miserable in such as Islamic countries.

Truly, those folk have faith to be Christian. And they are suffering, big time.

We are promised spiritual security, on this earth, not physical.

[a.baker]

Another question about mental illness. Many that have these seem to be in poverty and have no insurance for mental medicine (medicine and science is a prayer answered to men in many circumstances). So they continue to live in torment. But Gods word is free and can bring any of these people out of their sicknesses. Many see medicine as the only way out. Not true. There was a place that I read that psychiatrists report that many who take meds for mental disease are just living in fear of dealing with their problems and so medicine is a way to escape. Meds may need to be used in some cases I suppose, but I think it would be rare to have it result in meds for mental sickness. If only they would pick up the bible. Many times Jesus healed in the bible because of faith alone!

[CoreIssue]

Another question about mental illness. Many that have these seem to be in poverty and have no insurance for mental medicine (medicine and science is a prayer answered to men in many circumstances).
Well, families with money are are very good at hiding their issues.

So, I am not sure if poverty = more problems.

Might be. Just not sure.
So they continue to live in torment.
I guess it depends on how you define torment.

I see the drinking and drugging crowd as living in torment. But they embrace it.

Not disputing the poor, with health issues, are trapped. Not for a second.
But Gods word is free and can bring any of these people out of their sicknesses.
True.

If not physically or mentally, at least in the spirits, where it counts the most.
Many see medicine as the only way out. Not true.
Agree.
There was a place that I read that psychiatrists report that many who take meds for mental disease are just living in fear of dealing with their problems and so medicine is a way to escape.
Agree.

And what profession is considered to have doctors with the biggest problems? Yep, them, because you know where they place their faith and look to for solutions.
Meds may need to be used in some cases I suppose, but I think it would be rare to have it result in meds for mental sickness.
Some do have physical injuries, chemical imbalances and such that meds can help with.

In example, a diabetic's body is out of whack, not functioning correctly.

Should he quite taking his pills or insulin and have faith?

No, he should have faith and take his meds while praying for healing. Tha is the Biblical formula.

And God will not always heal such. Look at Paul and his eyes.
If only they would pick up the bible. Many times Jesus healed in the bible because of faith alone!
Whether God chooses to heal or not, indeed pick up that Bible. :tiphat:

[a.baker]

Riches? Only Gods word is where I will find true riches.I kinda want to stay poor. The bible says to be a fool for God.Not foolish in the Christians eyes but foolish in the sinful eyes. Yes I agree with the mental illness thing ( some were rhetorical statements). Yes I very much except full responsibility for my outcome. School? I was talking about community college since that is all I can "afford" or would be accepted into. I learn very uniquely when it comes to study in the classroom which makes me fail much in the past. Scientist argue over what intelligence and knowledge really are and how the brain works. What would I go to school for anyways. I can't find a thing that interests me. Maybe I am meant to stick with simple work. Simple work does not mean you will have a simple life though. I have problems all over the place. My husband already has a hefty college bill that hangs over our heads. Not to mention we are in debt with much other things as well. Collection debt. We don't need any more. We have enough to take care of already that I don't see a financial way out.

[CoreIssue]

Spiritual riches, amen!

College and bills, things you guys will have to weigh out.

Off topic, since I don't know where he stands degree wise and such, but here is a site that might help with a good paying job and career, if he isn't already on that road.

http://www.usajobs.gov/

If not tied down, where you are, be flexible.

Goverment is good to get into, then do vertical and lateral moves to get where you want to ultimately be, even if it means starting where you do not want to be.

[a.baker]

Oh no not diabetes one would die with out meds! Its in my family big time. Yes sickness is there for all but physical is much different then mental. I have a much easier time accepting physical then mental. Physical sickness is there for all, rich or poor.Gods children and sinners. I care more about my soul then anything else when it comes to my body. I show God my appreciation for my good health. I exercise, take vitamins, eat right, sleep well, and keep my body sober (repentance). But if I get sick, I can take meds and have faith at the same time..agree. I don't want anyone to think I am having beliefs in some kind of scientific Church like that one actor... I forget his name.

[CoreIssue]

OK. No problems.

Tom Cruise.

[a.baker]

He does contractor type work. He makes enough money to keep us going. I work too but its hard to do anything with his over worked schedule. He works 9a.m. to about 6 or 7 p.m. Doesn't leave me much time for anything.I can't do anything late at night because I have to get up for work at about 3:45 a.m. No money for daycare and only one car thats almost broken...transmition. Can't get a new car; bad credit the both of us. Husband has many points on license; that doesn't help. My records clean though. Have no extra money to save for a new car. No extra money for even our basics or for any cheap fun. Living is so expensive!As long as I keep going and trying. I must supply for my family before myself at all times! School I would love to but everything packed in with that is beyond me.

[a.baker]

Yes! Tom Cruise. Sorry I don't know much about Hollywood.

[a.baker]

Thank-x for listening!!! Lots of weight on my shoulders!

[CoreIssue]

Not knowing a lot about Hollywood is nothing to apologize for! :p

And your welcome. We do care, here. :tiphat:

[Jessie]

I understand the bills and no money all to well.

today had to take in my car to get the front brakes fixed.
last night they finally went. clanging bad. they wanted almost $300 to do them,
but settled on about $219. including oil change. took most of my check. :ick:
and I just got paid today. I get paid every 2 weeks and this check should have been going to the dr. and dentist with a bit left over. theres nothing. dont even know about gas to get back and forth to work.

its tiring. :(

I'd like to say too that richer familys do HIDE all to well their problems,
and I'd think they have just as many. just different.

not sure what you meant on the meds? could you explain?

my dad was a nam vet, had schizophrenia. he needed meds.
he did'nt want them, but needed it badly. sure would have helped in
he'd known the Lord though.

the mind can be injured just like a arm or leg or function wrongly like a persons kidneys go haywire. I'd say its the worst thing to have wrong.

a lot of thinking errors cause troubles too. its complicated.

[a.baker]

Yes his mind was injured from war very understanding! I almost joined the army right before Sept. 11 and glad I changed my mind. War does make one mentally sick. Have people in my family that take meds for mental illness as well. War is so wrong for many reasons. Don't get me wrong I do support our troops just not war. My close friend just got out and has some sick stories and my cousin is in now.

[a.baker]

Mental sickness is a closet of darkness of torment inside ones mind. I do understand that much.

[kay-gee]

you seem to be implying mental illness is solely on one's income, however most personality and mood disorders ( like schizophrenia) have hereditary causes.

[a.baker]

No it can come from many different life styles and types of people.

[CoreIssue]

you seem to be implying mental illness is solely on one's income, however most personality and mood disorders ( like schizophrenia) have hereditary causes.
There are inherent problems in many families. Unavoidable to the descendents.

There are herent traits. Hard to deal with, but not unavoidable. Choice comes into play here.

There are induced conditions, as in by purely personal choices, such as drugs, life style and so on.

Homosexuality, alcohol addiction and such, in example, were debunked by the Genome Project, on the claim of being inherent.

They are herent. There is a leaning and a weakness toward them, but one must choose to give into them.

Mental issues can fall into any of those categories.

A ton of what is called disease isn't disease.

Addiction isn't a disease. It is a choice that one must choose to escape as they chose to take it one.

Hard to escape, yes. But a disease, like getting a germ, no.

[a.baker]

yes definitely a complicating issue.

[kay-gee]

I want to know why every time I mention that Christians need to get happier, I get hammered into the ground. Do you have that much dis-dain for me? What have I done to cause this reaction? I think you must have a skewed view of who I am. I am not some privelaged rich brat that dosen't know anything about real life. In fact the opposite is true. I struggle with all kinds of things, both internal and external. Yes I have a home in the Bahamas. Nothing of my doing, I caught a break. I married into the right family. Not that many years ago we were helping my mom-in-law monetarily. She was practically on welfare. That was before she inherited the 900 acres of ocean property (her childhood home) in the Bahamas and became fabulously wealthy. Had Zero to do with me. A blessing from God, pure and simple. My wife and I have given sacrificially in many ways so others can be helped. And don't tell me about being persecuted for the faith. I've been trying to establish a congregation on our Island against bitterest opposition. Noone seems very interested in NT Christianity and dismiss as cultic cranks. My wife blew the weeks grocery budget one time, helping some guy get into a rehab program. (Some young Dude we don't even really know) The reason I don't have my motorcycle yet is because I gave the money to a struggling preacher to get a decent vehicle to get him and his family around! He was in more need than I was. I don't brag or take credit for those things. I simply do them out of care and concern for the brotherhood. Simply fill the cups of others and God fills yours. It is simple and biblical. I get kinda tired of hearing about all the negativity and talk about demons following you around and all that. Try jumping in the trenches and doing the work that The Lord has given you to do. Yeah, the worlds going down! So what! We are to be light. If not us, Then who?!!! Another thing, I am not some happy happy PC fuzzy minded dude, singing "everything is beautiful" Yeah, I believe in Hell and judgment. I also believe, that if you give people a reason to want to see God,You are more likely gonna make disciples. We are a city on a hill. The Lord said that, not me! The difference is, I believe it and try to live by it! So please stop being so depressed and bummed out about everything. Sometimes you sound like a bunch of drunks (minus the booze) and commiserating about all of your problems and the worlds and how every thing is somebody's fault and blah blah. C'mon people cheer up. This is my thread, and I'm gonna keep saying it, no matter how it ruffles your feathers. Cheer up!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I want to know why every time I mention that Christians need to get happier, I get hammered into the ground.
Because you are not listening.

There are people with real needs and struggles. The reality of the times is something would should not bury our heads in the sand about.

It is Biblical and the Bible says we are to study it. There is a special blessing in it.

You don't seem to recognize the difference between earthly and spiritual. You talk as if both are the same.

We are discussing the realities of our times.

Where is this requirement Christians have to go around only talking happy happy all the time?

That is blindness.
Do you have that much dis-dain for me? What have I done to cause this reaction?
Not disdain. Frustration of the peace, love and joy 'Christianity' that is killing the Gospel and the Truth about reality.
I think you must have a skewed view of who I am.
We only see what you present.
I am not some privelaged rich brat that dosen't know anything about real life. In fact the opposite is true. I struggle with all kinds of things, both internal and external. Yes I have a home in the Bahamas. Nothing of my doing, I caught a break. I married into the right family. Not that many years ago we were helping my mom-in-law monetarily. She was practically on welfare. That was before she inherited the 900 acres of ocean property (her childhood home) in the Bahamas and became fabulously wealthy.
But you still have it.

I do better than most on the board. I admit it.

Not as well as you, for sure.

But I also struggle with physical and medical issues.

So not saying your life is without issue. But it sure isn't approaching what some are struggling with.

Many Christians are daily struggling with serious pain, economics and so on. That NEEDS discussed, not being told to slap a happy face on.

Inner peace does not always translate to earthly peace. A reality you don't seem to get.
Had Zero to do with me. A blessing from God, pure and simple.
How do you know it is a blessing from God?

I know people that are rich, well off and more. And it ain't a blessing from God.

Where do so many 'modern' Christians get the idea from that to get material wealth means it is a blessing from God?

I am not knocking it. Just like a reality blended in here.

Enjoy it. But don't knock the circumstances of others who do not have it to enjoy.

The Bible is very clear on the issues of the End Times, Israel and such. Somehow, you keep dismissing the realities that are swarming aound you.

That is not disdain or dislike. I actually see a lot in you I like.

But it is frustration that you have such redicule for discussing Biblical realities in light of the times on a discussion and debate board!
My wife and I have given sacrificially in many ways so others can be helped.
Good. And you are not alone. Many here, have.
And don't tell me about being persecuted for the faith. I've been trying to establish a congregation on our Island against bitterest opposition.
And where is the persecution?

Has your house been fire bombed? You shot at? Beat up?

Yes, we understand opposition. But opposition falls far short of persecution.
Noone seems very interested in NT Christianity and dismiss as cultic cranks.
We understand that.

Now, which is going to help you more, putting on the happy happy or bringing it out into the open where you can maybe get experience, input and help from others on approaches to get around it?
My wife blew the weeks grocery budget one time, helping some guy get into a rehab program. (Some young Dude we don't even really know) The reason I don't have my motorcycle yet is because I gave the money to a struggling preacher to get a decent vehicle to get him and his family around! He was in more need than I was. I don't brag or take credit for those things. I simply do them out of care and concern for the brotherhood.
Yep. And don't kid yourself. I don't know of anyone, here, who has not made such sacrifices as well.

As with you, we don't go around publicizing them. But in private discussions and planning, such things are known, to some.
Simply fill the cups of others and God fills yours. It is simple and biblical.
Yes. But no promises you get a drop on this earth.

Maybe you don't mean it, but you do sound like you have more health, wealth and prosperity beliefs in you than are Biblical.
I get kinda tired of hearing about all the negativity and talk about demons following you around and all that.
Then get tired. But that makes us wonder why you are not considered a worthy target.
Try jumping in the trenches and doing the work that The Lord has given you to do.
Then there are those kind of statement.

You believe we don't do anything but talk.

You could not be further from the truth.
Yeah, the worlds going down! So what!
Time to do what the Bible says. Get the last of the Church Harvest in.

You don't see the severity of the issue because you don't read literally.

That hamstrings your work. And why you are not a target, like others are, of demons and the world.

Of course, you don't get that.
We are to be light. If not us, Then who?!!!
And light shows ALL! Not just the disco flash.
Another thing, I am not some happy happy PC fuzzy minded dude, singing "everything is beautiful" Yeah, I believe in Hell and judgment.
OK. But do you tell others of that reality? Or just the good parts that make you feel good?

The Bible IS a very negative book, by your standards. It spends more time condemning and judging than being all happy.

Why? Because the fear of God leads to the joy and love of God.

When one achieves that joy and love, then they are unshakable, in it. There is no fear.

We need to make a world that mocks God fear God before they will ever turn to God.
I also believe, that if you give people a reason to want to see God,You are more likely gonna make disciples. We are a city on a hill. The Lord said that, not me! The difference is, I believe it and try to live by it!
And what reason is that, KG?

Happy happy? They think they already have that and to turn to God is to give up the things that make them happy happy.

Happy happy doesn't change people.

Ever hear the expression one has to hit bottom before they can look up? Think about it.
So please stop being so depressed and bummed out about everything. Sometimes you sound like a bunch of drunks (minus the booze)
We are not depressed in God. And whether you believe that or not is your problem.

But we are not self blinded about the world around us either.

First step in fixing something is seeing what is broken.
and commiserating about all of your problems
Yea. We see how well your solutions work.

Several have come on with problems. Did they get anywhere with your just be happy approach? No.

Change came when first facing up to reality, even when it hurt.

Yea, you get hurt facing reality, Bibilical or otherwise. Then you get blessed.

Repentence requires first seeing your failure. Not finding a big smile for your face.
and the worlds and how every thing is somebody's fault and blah blah.
Everything is someone one's fault. Get over it.

It is God's fault when you knocks someone down to get them to look up and stop being so self righteous in themselves.

It is another's fault when someone is whining about others and made to see they are doing it to themselves.

It is the world's fault when they try to silence the Church.

It is a demon's fault when it works to destroy our work.

It is a weak Christian's fault when they think just preach love and harmony is enough to change people. It ain't.

In fact, the Seek Sensitive, Positive Thinking and others such movements have left the Bible and become cult teachings.
C'mon people cheer up. This is my thread, and I'm gonna keep saying it, no matter how it ruffles your feathers. Cheer up!
And you are going to be told you need to wake up.

We are not unhappy, in Christ.

Many here are testimonies to Christ. They are struggling with physical, medical, money and other issues, but never have lost hope in Christ.

If you think facing reality, sharing issues with fellow Christians and such is negative, then so be it. We call it working on answers and understanding what is happening.

Bible tells us to share it all, with him and our fellows. That is true fellowship and equiping the saints for the war with the world.

You don't see it? Your loss.

[InTheWind]

Kay-Gee may i suggest you start our day off with a good morning thread in the chat and fellowship forum, sing praises, shouts with joy whatever.
That`s the place to show our joy in the Lord. :nod::):

[a.baker]

I just wanted to say something off subject real quick and than I will comment on the thread. My daughter says "mom I am going to pray to God" and I say "o.k. go ahead". She says " Dear God thank you for all our snacks and clothes". I just thought that was neat. She is going to Church and finding so much joy and talking about Him often! (especially for a 3yr. old)

Kay-gee,
We are supposed to imitate children in that aspect as my example above. The joy, singing, and praise. But when I first came here I didn't open my bible I was just talking about feelings but still talking about God. When I came here I got all kind of comments after comments "open your bible". Well I did and behold I now fully see. I was so blind before. This website and everyone here showed me "Hey you aren't listening and don't know what you are talking about". As soon as I searched my bible the Truth was revealed. I was over whelmed with joy. But I asked God to show me what He sees and to lead me to His Way. I then saw more. I saw what He sees and it is sad. I am not depressed but I can see more and feel more. We are all talking together because we will always have questions. We as humans always want more. We are always seeking more. God put that in us so we may become addicted to Him. So we see all whats wrong with this world and we have a sense of the darkness that surrounds us. But God gives us the joy, peace, and love from the Holy Spirit resting inside of us. This world is so foreign since we are so far from our home and it makes us sad. The new testament also says that sadness of the heart is a pure heart. Not so we are depressed; He will pull us up and become our strength once we see all that is wrong with earth. When we see His face we are scared and weak. That is the truth. Everyone here pointed me to the bible. And now I feel at peace even as I question. We must question and constantly search and seek for answers. Jesus was our Teacher. But God also sent other teachers to help us in every generation to continue to answer our questions so we won't endure in false interpretations. Even when one finds the truth they must still question to grow. When you don't you could be blind to something and thats scary. Remember the tricks of satan are very tricky. Don't let him blind you in love and joy so you stop questioning (maybe not you. I don't know what you do outside the website). We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we just don't want to see any of us wonder away because we know whats out there and its not pleasant. :) Love your sis Amanda

[a.baker]

In The Wind,
That is a good idea.

[InTheWind]

I just wanted to say something off subject real quick and than I will comment on the thread. My daughter says "mom I am going to pray to God" and I say "o.k. go ahead". She says " Dear God thank you for all our snacks and clothes". I just thought that was neat. She is going to Church and finding so much joy and talking about Him often! (especially for a 3yr. old)

Kay-gee,
We are supposed to imitate children in that aspect as my example above. The joy, singing, and praise. But when I first came here I didn't open my bible I was just talking about feelings but still talking about God. When I came here I got all kind of comments after comments "open your bible". Well I did and behold I now fully see. I was so blind before. This website and everyone here showed me "Hey you aren't listening and don't know what you are talking about". As soon as I searched my bible the Truth was revealed. I was over whelmed with joy. But I asked God to show me what He sees and to lead me to His Way. I then saw more. I saw what He sees and it is sad. I am not depressed but I can see more and feel more. We are all talking together because we will always have questions. We as humans always want more. We are always seeking more. God put that in us so we may become addicted to Him. So we see all whats wrong with this world and we have a sense of the darkness that surrounds us. But God gives us the joy, peace, and love from the Holy Spirit resting inside of us. This world is so foreign since we are so far from our home and it makes us sad. The new testament also says that sadness of the heart is a pure heart. Not so we are depressed; He will pull us up and become our strength once we see all that is wrong with earth. When we see His face we are scared and weak. That is the truth. Everyone here pointed me to the bible. And now I feel at peace even as I question. We must question and constantly search and seek for answers. Jesus was our Teacher. But God also sent other teachers to help us in every generation to continue to answer our questions so we won't endure in false interpretations. Even when one finds the truth they must still question to grow. When you don't you could be blind to something and thats scary. Remember the tricks of satan are very tricky. Don't let him blind you in love and joy so you stop questioning (maybe not you. I don't know what you do outside the website). We are all brothers and sisters in Christ and we just don't want to see any of us wonder away because we know whats out there and its not pleasant. :) Love your sis Amanda

:nod: :hug:

[kay-gee]

Sorry guys, Sometimes I really need to vent. I get a lot of pent up frustration when I feel mis-understood. That was my intent when I started this thread. Like a pit stop, where we can air these feelings. Talking religion brings out the Mr Hyde in some of us and we are no longer able to see the Dr. Jekyll. I just feel like you have this picture of me that is not real, and I feel very sorry that in some way I may have contributed to it. I have money and health concerns the same as any one else. You don't see that side of me cause I don't talk about it much. I also know the fragility of life. It could all be gone tomorrow. When I am down to a couple of bucks and a loaf of bread in the cupboard, I must still be willing to do my Christian duty and share with those in need. I do not have a hedge of protection around me any more than did Job. I have known much struggle. The health and wealth gospel disgusts me, and I would never be a party to it. I have a very real and healthy fear of God. I believe in Hell and judment. It is coming! No doubt about that. I do not want to publicize my acts of charity. I only want you to see the real me, at least a glimpse! I do believe in walking the walk, not just talking the talk. If i have led any one here to think otherwise, I apologize. However, it has been my observation, that when folks lose there zest for life, they begin to shrivel up and become more negative. It is most apparent in people in middle life and older. It dosen't hurt to have a youthful love for life, and be willing to try new things (even though it may hurt a little). A learned a lot in the last week, just being surrounded by kids. Some of the activities we did are down right painful for some one my age. But it felt good, in a weird kinda way. I am learning to open up and give which is fairly new to me. I find joy in giving and sharing not things necessarily but time and skills. You think I don't know sadness? We are a middle aged couple and have never had children. I will know never the joy of seeing a person look at me and call me daddy. Sure we have some extra freedoms we couldn't have with kids. Certainly moving to the tropics would be out of the question! But so what! It gets real dark and boring and lonesome around house sometimes. I feel I have so much to give and no one to give it to. I make a huge fuss over my nephews and nieces when I'm in Canada. No doubt my wife stands to inherit a few million. Meaningless. We'll have to spend on ourselves. Where is the joy in that? You know nothing of my inner heartaches. I'll be an old man someday in a home some place and no one to visit me. Imagine having that to look forward to. Yeah I hurt, but that dosen't stop me from being positive in the here and now. My joy in having known Christ sustains me. Has all along. When I decided to turn back to Him after years of backsliding, and really knucle down my commitment, things took a turn in my life. An umbrella of joy that covers all the other stuff. Once, I could complain with the best of them about anything. I don't believe God cares much for grumbling and complaining. Frankly the world sucks! Jesus said be of Good Cheer. I have overcome the world! Some food for thought. Forgive me if I've been a little sappy, but I want you to see a bit of my heart. Thanks for your patience!

all the best...

[a.baker]

Kay-Gee,
Big hug from me to you. (can't find the little smile guys) I hear you in your heart aches of having no children. And it makes it even harder to see people that have children and never show them love. They don't realize what a wonderful gift God has placed into their hands to care for and raise them to know Him. Priceless. Its also sad to see people that have many children who are grown and never visit their parents. Priceless. I agree we can't dwell on the sadness but we can't ignore it either. Music helps me so much when it comes to many feelings. How wonderful music can be. I wish I could play a guitar but it is super hard. There is nothing wrong with being human and showing emotion. Partially what separates us from all other animals (of course our souls too). And yes God will show us in His Word how we are to use these emotions (something I am working on too). And it is frustrating to put things in words sometimes. But we just keep going and seeking His Word and try to be like Jesus. We just can't stop and settle. We must keep discovering the Truth together. And pray for each other :)

[a.baker]

In the Wind,
Big hug from me to you :) (my keyboard smile; can't find them) God is Wonderful! He gives me more than I could of ever asked for. Thank you for help pointing me into the right direction awhile ago! Priceless.

[CoreIssue]

Glad you let it out.

The problem with bottling it up is others cannot share and help others grow.

Have you ever seen anyone hurting grow and get better by focusing only on the positive?

No. We have to deal with the negative to find the positive.

We don't go around bragging about the good done. And you know the reasons for that.

So, when one comes on CTZ, hurting, we want them to get it out and get through it. Not hide it behind happy talk and a smile.

In this day and age, to show one why they need to change, they have to be shown where the world is heading, and them with it. That is where prophecy comes in.

Cults and such have all the pat answers just throwing the Bible and how great Christ is at them. They are immune. As are atheists and others.

So, the choice is to be happy happy and just let them go, or try to present reasons they need to change, which are 'negative.'

Learning prophecy equips Christians for 'getting out there and doing God's work.'

Just being cheerful and happy doesn't. The world is loaded with cheery people, both false and true. And most are cynical and believe it is either a false face or deluded thinking.

Balance. All things take balance.

I don't think you will find many groups more overall cheerful and positive than the regs here on CTZ.

Our talking about what we see happening, and its linkage with prophecy, isn't being depressed and negative. It is like analysts doing research.

Maybe, in fact, it is you who have the false picture about us.

If I can help a brother or sister, who is down and out about something, get through it, let the negatives flow. The goal is an answer to the problem. Not just covering it over.

No one just gets happy without working through issues. No one.

[CoreIssue]

a.baker, you must be using the quick reply. Use the regular reply button and you will see the smilies. ;)

[a.baker]

Yup! There they are. So thats the difference with post reply and quick reply. :swoon::tiphat:

[kay-gee]

Good points all! Thanks guys!

all the best...

[kay-gee]

A.baker. Guitar is not that hard really. Learn 3 major chords and a minor and you can pretty well express all the emotions. If you sing, it will come even easier.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Salvation is by freewill of a person. No amount of coercion by another is going to get Christs blood into their life. I think this is important for us to grasp. I am apolled when I see folks setting ultimatums for family members, spouses etc... Let it go. It is no more easy to do then forcing someone to be intelligent or musical or handy or whatever. Either the person gets it or they don't. Move on. Many people have lived happy and completely fulfilled lives without Christ. (on this Earth, not eternally). They just plain don't see the need for what they percieve as "religion and church-i-ness". Please don't force things on your spouses and children. My dad never became a Christian yet he and my mom had a wonderful marriage together for 50 years. As far as his eternity, he had the same oppurtunities as the rest of us. That was his responsability. He made his own decisions. I gotta respect that and move on. The same is true of my brothers. They are not committed believers either. They know the truth. I refuse to be my brothers keeper. If I beat them over the head, I'll lose them for sure. My responsability is to demonstrate the attitude of Christ around them and others. I make known where my committment lies. It seems like we spend so much time concerned about others, it is easy to forget that we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The Bible teaches that in heaven God wipes away every tear. You aren't going to be in eternal paradise fretting over your loved ones who are not there. It appears that the awesomeness of the father and son will overshadow any grief of loss and all memory of earthly relationships. What I'm basically saying here is stop dissing folks (children, parents, spouses etc...) because they can't see things the way you. Guide them and encourage them, yes, but respect that the decision is ultimately theirs to make. Accept or reject. It is a simple decision, but it is theirs to make not yours. Please tell me if I am being cold or callous, but this is the way I feel!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Salvation is by freewill of a person. No amount of coercion by another is going to get Christs blood into their life. I think this is important for us to grasp.[/QUOTE]
Yes and no.

In fact, many people HAVE ended up turning to Christ when a spouse or other person close to them have done the ultimatum of change your life or we are done.

When there is abuse or other completely destructive behavior lines finally do have to be drawn.

Why you do not understand that is beyond me.

There ARE times it in necessary. Other times, just to get them saved, without any special issues existing, you are right, it will fail.

You are trying to over simplify this issue.
I am apolled when I see folks setting ultimatums for family members, spouses etc... Let it go. It is no more easy to do then forcing someone to be intelligent or musical or handy or whatever. Either the person gets it or they don't. Move on. Many people have lived happy and completely fulfilled lives without Christ. (on this Earth, not eternally).
Fulfilled?

No. When you get into it more deeply they are empty and bitter. Even when putting on the happy face.
They just plain don't see the need for what they percieve as "religion and church-i-ness".
More of don't want it.
Please don't force things on your spouses and children.
Without special issues, I agree.

Encourage, yes. Silence, no.

Seems you are pushing silence.
My dad never became a Christian yet he and my mom had a wonderful marriage together for 50 years. As far as his eternity, he had the same oppurtunities as the rest of us. That was his responsability. He made his own decisions. I gotta respect that and move on. The same is true of my brothers. They are not committed believers either. They know the truth. I refuse to be my brothers keeper. If I beat them over the head, I'll lose them for sure. My responsability is to demonstrate the attitude of Christ around them and others. I make known where my committment lies.
This I agree with.
It seems like we spend so much time concerned about others, it is easy to forget that we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Concern about others is part of sanctification. Working on ourselves another.
The Bible teaches that in heaven God wipes away every tear. You aren't going to be in eternal paradise fretting over your loved ones who are not there.
True. But equally true we are not there yet. And must live by our purposes on this earth.
It appears that the awesomeness of the father and son will overshadow any grief of loss and all memory of earthly relationships. What I'm basically saying here is stop dissing folks (children, parents, spouses etc...) because they can't see things the way you.
Concern is not dissing.

Speaking of abuse and such is not dissing.
Guide them and encourage them, yes, but respect that the decision is ultimately theirs to make. Accept or reject. It is a simple decision, but it is theirs to make not yours. Please tell me if I am being cold or callous, but this is the way I feel!

all the best...
But when abuse is present, it IS their concern.

[kay-gee]

JUst wondering. How come when I start getting into a debate and I make a point about such and such, I'm considered not being serious? Word games? I wish I were clever enough to play them but I'm not. Please don't put me down cause I only made it to 12th grade! yeeesh!
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

JUst wondering. How come when I start getting into a debate and I make a point about such and such, I'm considered not being serious? Word games? I wish I were clever enough to play them but I'm not. Please don't put me down cause I only made it to 12th grade! yeeesh!
all the best...
Because you don't make a point. You make an off the wall remark that fails to consider all said in the Bible and is non-literal.

You have to back your point with more than a mere statement. You don't.

And when challenged you have no answer to the challenges.

But you keep making the statements and derailing others who are making points and questions backed with something.

You have thrown out, before, Israel is not restored, it is a forced fluke of history and will fade away.

When pointed out, Biblically, what is said, you launch off into personal observations of the world interpreted by your thinking. No Bible. Just opinion.

Just an example.

Your logic based on your observations of the world that dismisses what the Bible says does not fly.

You have said you don't study prophecy because it does not matter to you. Yet, you are right there to contradict and deny those who have and are with you personal thoughts, as if they prove something.

Not that we don't care about you. But we do care that you think you are making relevant observations and points in areas where you hare self admittedly unstudied. That somehow your observations of the world equal Biblical truth.

[kay-gee]

Guys something on my mind really bothering me. CTZ is about the only board I've had contact to and really my only experience at computer talking and such. So with all confidence I can say you folks know me better than anyone. This is deeply personal but I gotta know. Do you people perceive me to have some sort of personality problem? Am I egotistical or belligerent or opinionated or abrasive in any way. I ask for your complete honesty. I can take it. If I have problems then I need to get before the Lord and repent. I signed up the to a Christian Chat site the other day. I was meeting lots of cool folks from all over the world, chit chatting and discussing stuff so on and so forth. When I suddenly put up a challenge to some things said that did not square with scripture, the tide quickly turned. I got canned, by a moderator that I presume I must have insulted by declaring that today's religious crowd is a little long on Spirit and a little short on truth. I have never intended to hurt anyone. Not ever. My goal in life is to help others up. Is challenging the popular view all that bad? What's wrong? The partakers in the discussion seemed to be having a grand old time. Some are working on my behalf to return me! Please help me. This killing me!
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I think you have formed too many opinions not based on the Bible, but personal perceptions and feelings.

It shows here all the time.

You don't like Israel, in example, so you refuse to see verses that say Israel is coming back. You even try to explain away Israel's existence today.

I think the term is overtly opinionated to the point of being rigid.

Bad person. I don't think think?

Unlikable? Nope.

You just want to defend liberal socialism and its slant on the Bible to the point of not seeing where your beliefs lack when tested against the Bible.

[Jessie]

JUst wondering. How come when I start getting into a debate and I make a point about such and such, I'm considered not being serious? Word games? I wish I were clever enough to play them but I'm not. Please don't put me down cause I only made it to 12th grade! yeeesh!
all the best...

LOL only 11th here. I will be honest and I'm not saying this to be hard.

you act flippant in your remarks as though you are not serious. :hug:

you have a great personality, and if you want to truly help others you cant give them something you dont have or understand.... so dig into your bible and pray before you start reading that the Lord would show you want you need to understand!

[kay-gee]

Thanks guys for your honesty. I will work on those things.
all the best...

[Jessie]

Guys something on my mind really bothering me. CTZ is about the only board I've had contact to and really my only experience at computer talking and such. So with all confidence I can say you folks know me better than anyone. This is deeply personal but I gotta know. Do you people perceive me to have some sort of personality problem? Am I egotistical or belligerent or opinionated or abrasive in any way. I ask for your complete honesty. I can take it. If I have problems then I need to get before the Lord and repent. I signed up the to a Christian Chat site the other day. I was meeting lots of cool folks from all over the world, chit chatting and discussing stuff so on and so forth. When I suddenly put up a challenge to some things said that did not square with scripture, the tide quickly turned. I got canned, by a moderator that I presume I must have insulted by declaring that today's religious crowd is a little long on Spirit and a little short on truth. I have never intended to hurt anyone. Not ever. My goal in life is to help others up. Is challenging the popular view all that bad? What's wrong? The partakers in the discussion seemed to be having a grand old time. Some are working on my behalf to return me! Please help me. This killing me!
all the best...


I'd like to say too, you spoke the truth. and they did exactly what you said!

you were correct for saying it and what you said. the world does'nt like truth period.

you cant be the popular guy and be a christian for the most part.
Jesus said the world would hate us. they hate Him!

and you did'nt hurt them by saying that, rather hopefully even just one person will get it!

[a.baker]

Kaygee sometimes people want to accept all and slap any old thing on the wall and see if it sticks. Us Christians have to cross the line at times only if its biblically correct. Many want to say they believe but don't want to hear the truth. As soon as they do they become quick to anger. So their actions speak something right there. We are not to be quick to anger when we speak of His Word. Yeah some of us have to work on that more so than others (situations in general) but if someone gets angry every time when you talk about Jesus biblically and they get mad than that makes me think they don't know Jesus. I know in your posts you weren't specifically talking about Jesus but thats what I see (in this world) and what the bible says. People get offended and angry way way too easily. Don't let it bother you. The problem lies within them. When people block you out so suddenly because you speak of His Word, all we can do is pray for them. And when it comes to you as a person I say your fine. At times you can be blunt in a heartless way or speak of opinion before you think. We all have things to work on. If God ever starts poking you to quiet than listen. He does that to me a lot. When I listen I see almost instantly how what I was about to say is wrong. I asked Him to poke me or start banging on my door to warn me to bite my tongue when necessary and he sure does not hesitate to do that. Boy I sure have a lot to work on myself.

[kay-gee]

Thanks for that...
all the best....

[kay-gee]

I am reflecting inward today. It bothers me that there is the side of me visible to others but not me as much. I don't ever want to come across as a blunt or unfeeling person because in many ways, I think I am a caring feeling person. I desire to be a happy go lucky and wonderful guy. But I feel pain for others as much as the next guy. Yes it is true, maybe I do not have the life's struggles of say Jessie or a.baker, But I am no less caring and concerned about them. If I lived closer to them, I would do what ever I could to help them, and praise God for allowing me the oppurtunity. I care about others and I care about children. If I have a harshness, then I need to work on it. I need to pray to GOd to reveal it so I can work on it. Perhaps it is subtle. My wife refers to it as a "tone". Now how you can pick-up "tone" over the internet I don't know. Bear with me, I will have victory over these shortcomings!
all the best...

[kay-gee]

Please do not confuse personality traits with belief systems. It is true, I believe differents things. Some things are matters of the conscience and of the enviroment. I cannot really apologize for them. That is how they are. I guess I am essentially a preterist Amil. But I've have held those long before I heard that there were terms for it. Certain things have been a part of me since my earliest bible awareness as a wee boy. I do not want to be difficult with others, who hold other views. I even try to grasp the things spoken and ponder them as I go about my day. But if things don't square, they don't square. It's that simple. Some folks in my fellowship would likely wonder why I would hang on a site such as this. It's not their business. I am a free agent. I must take something from this site or I would not come back time after time.
Yes it is true, I am quite ridgid but that is how I need to be. I cannot violate the conscience God has given to protect me. The whole duty of man is to obey God. On this forum there is a list of articles one must agree to, in oder to get into certain parts of the board. It is easy for some to click they agree and away they go. You have to understand I can't on account of conscience. It is a man made "creed" of sorts. I have no creed but the bible, so I cannot in faith put my name to it. See what I'm getting at? Any ways that is a glimpse into the mind of kay-gee
all the best...

[a.baker]

I have heard a lot of sermon preaching about conscience lately and it is a very special thing God gives us. Kaygee I tell you what being blunt and getting straight to the point is a good thing. Many don't do it enough now a days. And your right certain things are no ones business. I keep coming here because I also get something out of it. I go no where else on regular basis on the internet but CTZ.

[kay-gee]

Yeah, it's a case of taking care of business if you know what I mean. In the case of a site such as this, I hold back on a lot of stuff, but I do that for respect. This is someones work and domain. When I come on hear, I'm entering a church of sorts. It has it's leaders and its congregants, and there is a certain theology that predominates as there would be in any organized group. I would not run up into a 7 day church pulpit some Saturday and start belittling people and their faith. That is why we are divided. You go where you go and I go where I go and we all feel comfortable. There is a very big difference though and you will do well to understand this. In the Lords church, You are disfellowed from the congregation on the strength of the testimony of two or three witnesses, and after reasonable attempts by individuals to persuade the erring. In an organization such as this, There are folks with a trigger in hand. They don't like you you're gone. So one has to toe the line to an extent. But that is a choice one makes if they want to hang out. Much of the trouble I get into, is that I am not going to lie at the feet of any man and be some sort of placid disciple. I run every thing through the filter paper of scripture. I only have one master. On the day of judgement, there aint gonna be any cyber-pastor there to see me through. I have to be accountable for the things I believe and teach. No one else can do that for me. So at the risk of seeming difficult, I'm not gonna just accept anything that comes down the pipe. That goes for this board or any teacher and for that matter, preachers within my own group. Now I know that I use a little humour sometimes in my replies. I can't help that. It's just me. I guess some people are a little humourless and don't get things the same way as others. For that I apologize. It is not my place to tromp on your sincerely held beliefs. I come here I guess for some sort of camaraderie. I've gotten to know so many, and it kinda bothers me that some haven't gotten to know me a little better. You would think after some 1300 posts that folks would see my personality and style and know I aint trying to hurt anybody. But anyways that is how is this Tuesday night October 16 2007.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Yeah, it's a case of taking care of business if you know what I mean. In the case of a site such as this, I hold back on a lot of stuff, but I do that for respect. This is someones work and domain. When I come on hear, I'm entering a church of sorts. It has it's leaders and its congregants, and there is a certain theology that predominates as there would be in any organized group. I would not run up into a 7 day church pulpit some Saturday and start belittling people and their faith.
No. If they are wrong you either question or leave. But accept error?
That is why we are divided. You go where you go and I go where I go and we all feel comfortable.
Yep. The comfort thing over sound doctrine. That is the doctrine of many and why churches are failing. Comfort demands over truth.
There is a very big difference though and you will do well to understand this.
And you would do well to understand that God doesn't preach comfort over sound doctrine.
In the Lords church, You are disfellowed from the congregation on the strength of the testimony of two or three witnesses, and after reasonable attempts by individuals to persuade the erring.
Yes.
In an organization such as this, There are folks with a trigger in hand. They don't like you you're gone.
That is, bluntly put, a lie. No one has ever been banned based on personal dislike. Ever.
So one has to toe the line to an extent.
If you mean having more than personal opinion or declarations, as in needing proof, you are right.

Notice you are still here but you constantly violate that requirement?

We know the meaning of patience and correction. You are a testimony to that, KG.

You constantly invent criticisms, as you have done here, that are false, to try to cover up the fact you have no facts to base your declarations on.
But that is a choice one makes if they want to hang out. Much of the trouble I get into, is that I am not going to lie at the feet of any man and be some sort of placid disciple. I run every thing through the filter paper of scripture. I only have one master.
No. You don't. You run it through KG.

If you actually had scriptural backing you then you would stop running away from challenges to your declarations and post them. But you cannot post what you do not have.

So don't try to cover your butt but saying you reject what we say based on the Bible.
On the day of judgement, there aint gonna be any cyber-pastor there to see me through. I have to be accountable for the things I believe and teach. No one else can do that for me.
True for all of us.
So at the risk of seeming difficult, I'm not gonna just accept anything that comes down the pipe. That goes for this board or any teacher and for that matter, preachers within my own group.
I have no problem with that at all.

But I DO have a problem with you making declarations and trying to persuade others to them without any Biblical backing. And it should bother you.

Don't say the Bible teaches something without being ready to prove it when challenged. Which you fail at every time.
Now I know that I use a little humour sometimes in my replies. I can't help that. It's just me. I guess some people are a little humourless and don't get things the same way as others. For that I apologize. It is not my place to tromp on your sincerely held beliefs.
We all like humor. There are times for it and times not for it. And how it is framed is important.
I come here I guess for some sort of camaraderie. I've gotten to know so many, and it kinda bothers me that some haven't gotten to know me a little better. You would think after some 1300 posts that folks would see my personality and style and know I aint trying to hurt anybody. But anyways that is how is this Tuesday night October 16 2007.

all the best...
Actually, I think we know you better than you know yourself.

[a.baker]

God knows our hearts and our desires the best.

[CoreIssue]

God knows our hearts and our desires the best.
Absolutely, but we cannot live life without exercising our judgments as well.

Can be really confusing. :D

[Jessie]

agreed.

humm wonder why on earth I have such people both extended familys who do NOT want one to excersise good judgement? always controling that.

the inlaws and wof I get. my family hummm maybe hiding secrets not wanting them out?

[kay-gee]

I appreciate your responses. There is much room for personal growth.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

I was just reading the thread about AC started by one Kinnan who is now gone apparently. Now that was very nasty. For once I would like to see all sides of the argument without the venom and name calling. I could have had some contribution to make but was not even aware of it. How it escaped my notice I don't know. Was it during my time of summer travel?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I was just reading the thread about AC started by one Kinnan who is now gone apparently. Now that was very nasty. For once I would like to see all sides of the argument without the venom and name calling. I could have had some contribution to make but was not even aware of it. How it escaped my notice I don't know. Was it during my time of summer travel?

all the best...
We don't allow people to come on and preach.

Kinnan would not discuss or debate. He just preached.

Really, KG, you don't discuss and debate such issues Biblically. You make your declarartions, try to persuade people to your thinking without proof and when Biblical facts are demanded from you, move on.

There are plenty of threads still awaiting your Biblical proofs. How about going back and answering them before trying to expand your anti-Pre-Trib declarations elsewhere?

So please, Don't go the route of demanding evidence and proofs from those who refuse to give it is being nasty.

[kay-gee]

Actually CTZ wasn't the nasty one in this case. You say there are threads around that I haven't answered to? Refresh.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Actually CTZ wasn't the nasty one in this case. You say there are threads around that I haven't answered to? Refresh.

all the best...
Take your pick on those about Pre-Trib where you posted.

As in about Rapture, Israel and related.

I mean verses backing statement, not opinions. ;)

[kay-gee]

all the scriptures in the world don't mean anything to people whose minds are made up. If you have chosen premill as your doctrine then it's not likely you would ever change your thinking for anything. You got it in the bag and that's that. Any verses of scripture that challenge are just shopping cart theology or what ever. I've been here long enough to see how the operation works, and I aint setting my self up to be trapped. Forget it. Not worth it. There was a time not long ago I was vulnerable to this kind of doctrine. But now that I've done some more study on the subject, the more entrenched I am in my original inclinations. At this point it is really a matter of conscience. I could not in good conscience agree to this teaching. What ever is not of faith is sin. You can see the precarious position that would put me in. That's it.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

all the scriptures in the world don't mean anything to people whose minds are made up. If you have chosen premill as your doctrine then it's not likely you would ever change your thinking for anything. You got it in the bag and that's that. Any verses of scripture that challenge are just shopping cart theology or what ever. I've been here long enough to see how the operation works, and I aint setting my self up to be trapped. Forget it. Not worth it.
Then stop attacking Pre-Trib and throwing out negative posts about it. I mean it.

Either you back your attacks or stop them.

It is one thing to present facts when commenting on threads you don't agree with. It is deliberately being antagonistic and trying to derail simply because you don't agree when you do otherwise.

You ARE trapped simply because you have demonstrated you don't have answers, just antagonisms and personal opinions based on your own desires.
There was a time not long ago I was vulnerable to this kind of doctrine. But now that I've done some more study on the subject, the more entrenched I am in my original inclinations.
Then post these proofs.

All we see is you being vulnable to is your own desires.
At this point it is really a matter of conscience. I could not in good conscience agree to this teaching.
So conscience trumps the Bible. How nice an escapist thought.
What ever is not of faith is sin.
And what is not sound doctrine is a lie. Many cults are going to burn in the Lake for their faith in lies. Not that End Times doctrine is a salvation issue, because it isn't.
You can see the precarious position that would put me in. That's it.

all the best...
The only position you have put yourself in is inventing excuses for not studying to find sound doctrine.

Faith trumps literal Bible and sound doctrine. How convenient.

Actually, it is an excuse for not studying and being willing to face up to being wrong.

WoF, cults and others base their beliefs exactly on what you have declared. And you know they believe in lies.

[kay-gee]

So, let me see if I get this straight. A man should go against his conscience and accept a teaching that he dosen't really believe. Is this whole thing about the frustration of having someone as a regular who is not converted to the "premill faith" so to speak? Am I some kinda mis-fit that may lead the flock astray? I don't just accept things like other people. I am an individual. I sense that must drive you nuts with my nagging non-compliance, but I can't help that. That is both my nature and my duty to the Word. Also, I don't think I have been on many threads lately dealing with end times issues. Who have I derailed? I have been behaving, posting now almost entirely in the non religion forums.

all the best...

[Esoteric]

So, let me see if I get this straight. A man should go against his conscience and accept a teaching that he dosen't really believe. Is this whole thing about the frustration of having someone as a regular who is not converted to the "premill faith" so to speak? Am I some kinda mis-fit that may lead the flock astray? I don't just accept things like other people. I am an individual. I sense that must drive you nuts with my nagging non-compliance, but I can't help that. That is both my nature and my duty to the Word. Also, I don't think I have been on many threads lately dealing with end times issues. Who have I derailed? I have been behaving, posting now almost entirely in the non religion forums.

all the best...

You should question everything and hold it up to the Light of Scripture... If it doesnt jive, then you cant accept it... Keep seeking and keep questioning!!

Mike

[CoreIssue]

So, let me see if I get this straight. A man should go against his conscience and accept a teaching that he dosen't really believe. Is this whole thing about the frustration of having someone as a regular who is not converted to the "premill faith" so to speak? Am I some kinda mis-fit that may lead the flock astray? I don't just accept things like other people. I am an individual. I sense that must drive you nuts with my nagging non-compliance, but I can't help that. That is both my nature and my duty to the Word. Also, I don't think I have been on many threads lately dealing with end times issues. Who have I derailed? I have been behaving, posting now almost entirely in the non religion forums.

all the best...

You should question everything and hold it up to the Light of Scripture... If it doesnt jive, then you cant accept it... Keep seeking and keep questioning!!

Mike
As should you.

[kay-gee]

I've come to the sobering conclusion that I am the CTZ whipping boy!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I've come to the sobering conclusion that I am the CTZ whipping boy!

all the best...
Nope. Just trying to help you past the delusions.

[kay-gee]

Are people here just wringing there hands all the time looking for ways to clobber old Kay-gee?
It saddens me and frankly I don't get it! I've tried to be nohing but a real friend since I arrived. Listening to tales of woe from participants and trying to inject shots of positivity where possible as well as practical solutions. Now it's to the point where I am the one that is down and needs some encouragement and all I get is slapped around. For what? For having a "private" conversation with some in the middle of the night when most are sleeping? It seems I have been painted with some kind of a brush because of one aspect of doctrine I am not in agreement with. What up? my reference to Napoleon. What? It is getting on my nerves. I need to know. Also. the other participant in this particular conversation is one grounded deeply in CTZ doctrine and hardly going to be destroyed on account of my sleepless relevations. I figure the more I reveal of myself, the more people will understand where I am coming from.
all the best...

[CoreIssue]

KG, nothing private about a conversation on the ShoutBox. Get some reality on that.

Your positivity on making drugs legal is not positive, it is negative. As is making fun of Pre-Trib or saying those who believe it don't deal with reality.

Learn what you are talking about before you start taking sides on prophecy issues. You backed the Amills that come on, even MHz, who is a cult believe who denies the Trinity and salvation by grace alone.

You don't back anything with proof, then get all upset and persecuted when called on it.

Your hyperbole is no substitute for facts.

Get over the KG know best attitude. You don't.

Learn some reality. Prove what you say. We understand Canadian liberalism operates on feelings and cliches. We don't.

What does it take to get through just declaring something does not make it valid? A position, yes, but a valid position, no. And that having a position is not enough to go around pushing it or arguing with someone they are wrong.

You keep jumping in with your position, as it it proves something. When challenged you have nothing to offer, except KG is being picked on.

PROOF! Learn what that word means.

[John Beckett]

`

Yes, I agree, Core.

The simple fact is, Kay-Gee has seen you go at it
with others who come in here with their own theories
and rhetoric, and I am sure he has also seen you
lay down the law to them when they post claims and
theories that have no concrete Biblical backing.

I am sure he has also seen you warn these folk to
either stop dancing around the questions and facts
you relay to them, or drop the conversation.

So, although I personally have nothing against KG
believing as he will, I agree with you that he need not
feel persecuted and picked on when the admins here
show him the same discipline that is shown to others
who attempt to degrade the predominant doctrine of
this here Christian Site.

TO KAY-GEE: If you truly like the Christians here, then
please stay and continue fellowshiping. However, if you
know that we hold a different view on the Trib, it is
probably best that you don't challenge us, because you have
seen many times when others have tried it, and thus far,
none of them have succeeded in swaying our beliefs.

Had they done so, Core would obviously no longer be
debating with them.

Hope your Sunday turns out better than it has started, Brother.

In Jesus, forever!


John :):


`

[InTheWind]

Bingo !!!!!! :nod:

[kay-gee]

I think I'm gonna make this my lifes work...to try and figure this out! Why is it that politics and religion bring out the worst in man?
So often, otherwise reasonable people, become monsters when discussing these topics.
I'm on this chat site right. It is for musicians, but what I thought was really cool, was a section they had for Christian players, and the general ease of talking spirtual things with the various members.
Anyway. Somebody gets on there the other day and gets going about something...(not sure exactly what, because it is all erased now) And some tempers got heated up I guess. Long story short, the whole Christian thing has been zapped by the Admins. We are no longer allowed to talk about things of the spirit or political.
It got me thinking...Why do we as so-called professing Christians insist on painting ourselves into a corner? The world is watching, and loves this. It is able to to curtail meaningful discourse, in the interests of "keeping the peace". You want to talk about Political Correctness....We brought it on ourselves via our refusal to maintain civility in our broadcast of the gospel.
Just thought I had to bring this up...

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I think I'm gonna make this my lifes work...to try and figure this out! Why is it that politics and religion bring out the worst in man?
Power. Have you ever noticed non-Biblical beliefs and religions all center around power and position?
So often, otherwise reasonable people, become monsters when discussing these topics.
True.
I'm on this chat site right. It is for musicians, but what I thought was really cool, was a section they had for Christian players, and the general ease of talking spirtual things with the various members.
Anyway. Somebody gets on there the other day and gets going about something...(not sure exactly what, because it is all erased now) And some tempers got heated up I guess. Long story short, the whole Christian thing has been zapped by the Admins. We are no longer allowed to talk about things of the spirit or political.
The Admins failed. Are they going to ban political speech as well? That gets hot.
It got me thinking...Why do we as so-called professing Christians insist on painting ourselves into a corner?
Standing for truth is a corner, KG. Either you back it or shut up and fail.
The world is watching, and loves this.
Yes they do.
It is able to to curtail meaningful discourse, in the interests of "keeping the peace".
An excuse, not a reason.
You want to talk about Political Correctness....We brought it on ourselves via our refusal to maintain civility in our broadcast of the gospel.
Just thought I had to bring this up...

all the best...[/quote]
So, it is okay for atheist and others to attack, attack, attack and push their beliefs in an intolerant way but Christians are not suppose to have a spin and fight back? Really?

I don't see civility on the other side, but they are adored for standing firm.

Think about that.

[kay-gee]

As I watch another person banned from the site, it gets me thinking...man...even pre-mills and prophecy buffs are not all on the same page. No wonder it all gets so confusing.

all the best...

[Jessie]

As I watch another person banned from the site, it gets me thinking...man...even pre-mills and prophecy buffs are not all on the same page. No wonder it all gets so confusing.

all the best...


thats why we must study! test the spirits to see if they are right,
only way to do it is the scripture!

and to bad if someone gets offended. I'd rather be more worried of offending God!

[CoreIssue]

As I watch another person banned from the site, it gets me thinking...man...even pre-mills and prophecy buffs are not all on the same page. No wonder it all gets so confusing.

all the best...
KG, wiselady refused to discuss issues and accused anyone who didn't accept what was said as being unsaved, a blasphemer and so on. That includes YOU.

She is into non-literal reading, as you are, which as is the source of a vast majority of conflict out there.

As for univac, that is a Rudiger Totzenberger, who was banned on the prior board script for refusing to answer questions and preaching. Not even a Christian. His forum is found here (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=137).

So, please be a bit careful before lumping people together. Would you lump Mormons, JWs and such into that statement as well? I don't think so.

Also, be honest, you have prophecy views as well, so you lumped yourself in to your own statement. ;)

Jessie is so right. It requires study and literal, well definitioned and honest study to get it right. Too easy to look for what one wants versus what is correct.

[kay-gee]

Roman8...I hope you see this. Although Satan, as a spiritual being, is not omnipresent as is God, but his influence is global. He does not really affect people. You sin when you dis-obey God. He has many elpers in the form of angels/demons. (not the kind that cruise the aisles at Wal-mart) but invisible. Eph6:12. We are not told a whole lot about Satan but we do have some glimpses of him. He roams the earth. 1st Peter 5:8. If he is resisted He flees. James 4:7. Hope this is of help.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Roman8...I hope you see this. Although Satan, as a spiritual being, is not omnipresent as is God, but his influence is global. He does not really affect people. You sin when you dis-obey God. He has many elpers in the form of angels/demons. (not the kind that cruise the aisles at Wal-mart) but invisible. Eph6:12. We are not told a whole lot about Satan but we do have some glimpses of him. He roams the earth. 1st Peter 5:8. If he is resisted He flees. James 4:7. Hope this is of help.

all the best...
Demons are not angels, fallen or otherwise. Nor are they always invisible.

But yep, he has vast influence, we sin, which many try to put on Satan, he roams the earth, but also stand before the Throne of God as the Accuser and we know enough about him to know he is our enemy.

But flee easily? Not going to happen every time.

Demons and ourselves are our active enemies, for sure.

[a.baker]

This reminds me of that scripture something about how Satan flees from one and while hes gone that person cleans house so to speak. Satan comes back and finds it clean and in order. So he goes and brings with him seven more that are more evil than himself to dwell there. So the person is worse off than they were before? I don't know some where in the NT.

[a.baker]

Some do call on Satan or his followers in other religions to have him/them dwell within them so they can have some sort of power. You see this a lot in Wican religions and such. He just has a different name and he will speak to them. If one wants it Satan will deliver something.

[CoreIssue]

This reminds me of that scripture something about how Satan flees from one and while hes gone that person cleans house so to speak. Satan comes back and finds it clean and in order. So he goes and brings with him seven more that are more evil than himself to dwell there. So the person is worse off than they were before? I don't know some where in the NT.
Sorry, but a pet peeve of having Satan everywhere.

It was Satan driven out, but a demon driven out of someone who didn't want or care about them being driven returning with others more evil than him.

[kay-gee]

Please explain

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Please explain

all the best...
Who explain what?

[a.baker]

I don't know, that scripture just popped into my head thats all.

[kay-gee]

"The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" was a fictional novel written by Robert Louis Stevenson. It was about a shy mild mannered scientist who set out to find a drug that would separate the good and evil sides of the human personality. He used the stuff on himself in experimentation. What happened, is it turned him into a homicidal monster. As the story progresses, it gets harder and harder to control, until the evil side just overtakes him completely.
The reason I gave this thread this name, is because I have observed how matters of religion and politics, seem to run to the core of people and trigger behaviour completely out of character to the person. I find this an interesting study.
I am on another site, (for Christian Musicians). It seems as though, as long as we are talking about music etc...we can have all kinds of differing opinions with no trouble at all. Everybody is pretty cool and cordial.
Enter religion and politics. I guess the looming election is beginning to heat people up. Abortion was being discussed. So I threw a herring out there just to see what would happen. I was careful not to say what I really think. Well the next thing I know, it's like WWIII.!!! The venom is totally unbelievable. It got so bad, at one point, the admin, was considering closing the site.
Does anyone understand why this is? The question I put forward is this.....How can something as wonderful as religion, act as this wedge that separates the personality and can draw such wickedness out of people that are normally happy well balanced people?
Any ideas or explanations are welcome...

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

First, we need to define our terms and their usage.

Religion, in and of itself is neither wonderful or terrible word. It depends on exactly what religion you are talking about. As in example there is nothing wonderful about Islam.

Any religion that points to anywhere but God is not wonderful, in the full sense of the word, even though you can have people within such religions that are good neighbors and coworkers.

Even with the umbrella of Christianity not all are wonderful. Many have perverted doctrines that are not truly Christian or do not teach God's truths. There are many very immature Christians that have a lot to learn.

Bottom line is that personal opinion and error get in the way. Many refuse to read the Bible literally because there are aspects of God they do not understand or do not like. Anything beyond love, love, love or law, law, law is abhorrent to them. They do not like the hardship truth causes in the world and personally, at times.

Further, some do not have or want the skills to be able to confront those they disagree with and discuss things out on a proof and fact basis. They just want to be right and/or never developed the interpersonal skills to be actually functional in a disagreement.

Many claim to be Christian, few are. Many think they are learned and have skills, but when put to the test they neither learned or skilled. Many have egos and can never be wrong.

So, our humanness is our biggest issue in these things.

The best rule to avoid these problems is demand actual proof to back a claim and be able to back your own.

[Jessie]

I like the rule and you know, most wont do it but cling dogmatically to their
own ideas.

so many dont even read the bible...

[kay-gee]

I am not making jabs at anyone as it has been implied. I am honestly and sincerely trying to get to the bottom of this pre-mill doctrine. I would never have even bothered with it except that so many people and groups are into it, that I believed it was worth checking out. I would be doing myself a great dis-service to not look at doctrines and be as an ostrich with my head in the sand. If it is truth then I want to know. I have a serious problem. I am not seeing it. I have read a ton of stuff by the proponets of pre-mill and listened to many, and checked out the supporting verses in Bible. I have looked at the pertinent verses every which way to sunday, using every interpretive method. You know those 3-D puzzles? Somebody can look at that and instantly see it and others can stare at it all day and...nothing! I guess that's where I am at. Perhaps this knowledge has been closed to me by the Lord.
I don't believe I've ever come onto CTZ and taken shots at people for their beliefs. I dont make religious matters personal. Not even JW's, and their stuff is way out there in my books. I am not sure where all this animosity comes from that is aimed at me by moderators.
You see, I always thought the purpose of these forums was where these matters could be examined and discussed. We can go on any secular site and talk about the weather and our jobs and so forth. I came to CTZ to seek out the deeper matters. I have been a loyal and stand-up guy from the beginning here and frankly talk of being banned really bothers me.
Oh sure I could go and live at the sites that are more in line with my thinking, but what would that gain me? I dont want to be a "yes" man to anyones set out belief system. I want my faith to all my own and real!

all the best...

[InTheWind]

Do i hear the choir singing :D ya should of said that long ago :p
Bear with it Kay-Gee we all have our faults and besides you haven`t called anyone names or cussed :yowza:

[CoreIssue]

KG, when you say you do not see JW's as way out there, it demonstrates how you are not looking deep, but shallow.

JW' reject the Trinity and believe Christ is an angel who became a lesser god under the one True God, whom they say is only the Father.

They believe you have to do works to be saved, but still can be lost in even eternity.

They believe only 144,000 go to heaven and the rest of the saints live lives pretty much like now on the earth for eternity.

And they believe the lost cease to exist totally.

Think about it. If that is not way out there and non Christian to you, how deep is your thinking, in fact?

On the rest, use actual word definitions, as in looking at meanings in the Interlinear in the address bar at the top of the page. And read by rules of grammar. You know, the same ones you learned in school.

It really is quite simple. Israel = Israel, not Church, etc.

[kay-gee]

I think that got read wrong. JW doctrine is out there. Way way out there! What I meant is I do not take personal shots at people for what they believe no matter who they are. JW or RC, doesn't matter. People will believe what they believe and you cannot belittle them for it. To engage in meaningful dialogue is a different matter.

As for grammer. I understand what literal means and all that but it isn't making it for me. For some reason The Lord has hidden this from me. I think it is a sign to stay away from end time prophetics and concentrate on the daily battle of Christian life.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I think that got read wrong. JW doctrine is out there. Way way out there! What I meant is I do not take personal shots at people for what they believe no matter who they are. JW or RC, doesn't matter. People will believe what they believe and you cannot belittle them for it. To engage in meaningful dialogue is a different matter.
I have debated JW's and others, here and elsewhere. I am the one who gets attacked when trying to engage in factual data.
As for grammer. I understand what literal means and all that but it isn't making it for me.
Because you do not actually read literally, KG. Simple as that.

Israel is right in front of you, today, the verses have been posted and talked about. Yet, you always go non literal because you simply have bitten into Church Supremacy, Church forever and so forth. You don't really want to see it, deep down in side.

Church is eternal. So is Israel, and those who are neither Israel or Church. All belong to Christ, bought by him via his blood, but united under different covenants and non covenants.

Church is Bride of Christ, Israel Wife of God, etc. Different relationships, same family.

Many have rejected the Trib and MK because they do not want to believe God would do what he will do in the Trib. Denial, so they refuse to accept and see.

But God has and will do such things. It happened in Genesis 1:2, then again at the Flood, then in places like Sodom and Gomorrah, will happen in the Trib, will happen at the End of Time and people will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

But some people don't want a God who will do such, so they reinvent him for their personal comfort, as well as what he will do and does.

Really not a complex answer to understand.
For some reason The Lord has hidden this from me. I think it is a sign to stay away from end time prophetics and concentrate on the daily battle of Christian life.

all the best...
Wrong. God, has hidden nothing from you, you have hidden it from yourself.

You are a very PC guy, so you don't like the other issues. So, you cloak yourself in God has hidden it and Christians should just focus on daily life.

But even there, you sort what you want to see. You defend, in example, Canada's very PC government and lifestyle. Try to separate secular and spiritual totally, then live in the secular under while being personally spiritual.

Nope. You cannot divide your life up that way. A formula for failure and real frustration.

[kay-gee]

You've been attacked by a JW? Wow! That would've been a sight to see? They have never been less than cordial with me as they try to explain their screwy doctrines.

Always afford others kindliness and basic dignity. Even if you dont agree with them. Have I ever come on CTZ and made personal attacks upon your character or your integrity as a Bible believer? The accuracy of what you say I may challenge. But as a student, isn't that my right? Students ask....teachers explain, thats how the process works. If things don't square then you cross reference with other teachers.

I find that "literal" interpretation is used when it suits the occasion. I let the Bible speak in it's own natural way. That can be literal (very literal) in places and not so literal in others. Sometimes Poetic, sometimes figuarative. My rule is not to force doctrines into the scriptures. It is not my place to say what is meant. The Bible is it's own best interpreter. The challenge for Christians is to Rightly divide the WORD. We must face that the Bible is a spiritual book. It is intended to speak to the spirit of man. Heb 4:12
I have never tried to re-invent God. God is Supreme. God shall do as He pleases. I have no fear of tribs or MK's or whatever else He chooses to do. It's His planet and His plan. Where the problem lies is in how men interpret the word.

Thank-you again for the endorsement. I admit...I'm a very Progressive Converative guy (PC) particularly in politics. But I'm not sure how that connects to my difficulty in understanding your doctrines.

Of course I defend my country. Don't you defend yours? It would be very un-patriotic of me if I didn't according to Romans 13. Am I a fan of everything the Canadian government does? Of course not! The fact remains it is a wonderful country, and if other nations of the world would follow her example, there would be a lot less strife.

No I'm not hiding from anything. I am freer now than I have ever been. I don't allow myself to be shackled by worthless dogma anymore.

I hope I have replied to you in an honest and cordial way.

Happy New Year!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

You've been attacked by a JW? Wow! That would've been a sight to see? They have never been less than cordial with me as they try to explain their screwy doctrines.
They have been on CTZ debating.
Always afford others kindliness and basic dignity. Even if you dont agree with them.
I agree.
Have I ever come on CTZ and made personal attacks upon your character or your integrity as a Bible believer?
Actually, yes. You have said Pre-Tribbers are sitting back waiting for the Rapture and using it as an excuse to avoid the world. That is calling us lazy and cowards, basically.
The accuracy of what you say I may challenge. But as a student, isn't that my right? Students ask....teachers explain, thats how the process works. If things don't square then you cross reference with other teachers.
Teachers is a loaded word. Cults have teachers, as well.
I find that "literal" interpretation is used when it suits the occasion.
Nonsense. All that says is you do not understand how to read literally.

It is also an excuse to justify non literal when you don't like the literal statements.
I let the Bible speak in it's own natural way.
The Bible does not have a 'special' ways or speaking. It was written in the languages of Man. That means it is read by the rules of grammar of Man.
That can be literal (very literal) in places and not so literal in others.
And who determines that? You?
Sometimes Poetic, sometimes figuarative.
And Poetic an figurative always refer to a literal truth. In the Bible the literal is defined within the Bible, not by the readers assumptions.

Israel always means Israel, in example. Never used to refer to Church, anywhere, ever.
My rule is not to force doctrines into the scriptures.
But you do. You don't want Israel to return so it isn't Israel in a future prophecy.

You are even willing to throw away the Temple of Ezekiel to maintain that belief.
It is not my place to say what is meant.
But you do that.
The Bible is it's own best interpreter.
Then stop words definitions that they do not possess.
The challenge for Christians is to Rightly divide the WORD. We must face that the Bible is a spiritual book. It is intended to speak to the spirit of man. Heb 4:12
It speaks in literal human words and grammar, not a spiritual language.

Your spirit is not allowed to say that strikes me as meaning x, y or z and call it spiritual revelation from the Holy Spirit.

Demons are spiritual as well.

Example is the 70 Weeks of Daniel. There is 483 years of literal history, decree to rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple to birth of Christ and his death. But suddenly, you jump from the literal to the spiritualized figurative to change the literal Titus and his men, who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, to being Christ and Christians who spiritually destroyed apostate Jerusalem and the Temple. And spiritualzed the 70th Week as well.

That is inconsistant by any standard. You switched reading mode when it hit the spot you no longer could accept.

Or, the Land Covenant with Abraham being changed from unconditional to conditional and from being eternal to a segment of time, thus being fulfilled.

Yet, literally speaking, we see it as eternal and being fulfilled in the MK and onwards unending in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth.

But no, that gets changed to Church and a Heavenly reality, when the NJ is not inhabited in Heaven and us clearly seeing a Heavenly Temple, with God and saints in it, until the NJ on the NE, where there is no Temple in NJ.

What is the purpose of a Temple? To seek God, which is still occuring because there are still people who need to choose.

But what is the need of a Temple in eternity, once all have chosen and the saints are not longer seekers, but family, sons of God, forever more?

No. Not poetic or figurative, but reality that does not require redefining words, throwing away parts of the Bible and so forth.

Yet, you defend doing what I do not have to do. I just read the words with no need to explain any of them away from what they literally say. You cannot make the same claim.
I have never tried to re-invent God. God is Supreme. God shall do as He pleases.
He will, but I have never heard you speak of the reality of God's vengeance, justice or any such think non literalists found unpleasant.
I have no fear of tribs or MK's or whatever else He chooses to do. It's His planet and His plan. Where the problem lies is in how men interpret the word.
I don't fear a Trib and no saint should fear the MK.

Yep. The problem is when men decide the literal word does not mean what it says, as in Israel means Church, not Israel.
Thank-you again for the endorsement. I admit...I'm a very Progressive Converative guy (PC) particularly in politics. But I'm not sure how that connects to my difficulty in understanding your doctrines.
First of all, that is a contradictory label. As I once debated some who claimed to be Humanistic Christians. One is Humanist or Christian, but can never be both.

Using political meaning, one is conservative or they are progressive (a silly attempt at claiming to be forward moving to something better when they are actually liberals).

Second, it connects to your understanding because you somehow think a Christian can be non Christian in their political positions and still be following the Bible. Double Think and hypocrisy, to put it plainly.

As in, you cannot hold homosexuality to be a sin while supporting gay rights politically. Same with abortion and many other issues.

You claim to read literally but then embrace non literal for the things that you do not like or cause social discomfort. But you do not see you are doing it.

Rest of us see it. You don't.

Of course I defend my country. Don't you defend yours? It would be very un-patriotic of me if I didn't according to Romans 13. Am I a fan of everything the Canadian government does? Of course not! The fact remains it is a wonderful country, and if other nations of the world would follow her example, there would be a lot less strife.
Russia and China, in example, defend theirs as well. Kind of a non point, KG.
No I'm not hiding from anything. I am freer now than I have ever been. I don't allow myself to be shackled by worthless dogma anymore.
Cults and other religions make the same claim. Not going to get them to heaven.

My point being relying on how you feel is dangerous. The heart is deceptive above all else, says the Bible.
I hope I have replied to you in an honest and cordial way.
Yep. You said nothing new I didn't already understand you believe.

Unfortunately, you don't see the contradictions in what you say and do.
Happy New Year!

all the best...
And a Happy New Year to you as well!

[kay-gee]

Progressive Conservative is a political party. Google it!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Progressive Conservative is a political party. Google it!

all the best...
Still a contradictory name.

A Canadian party that claims it is an economic right leaning and centrist social party. Sounds like Blue Dog Democrats.

Link (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Progressive+Conservative+Party+of+Canada)

What is called centrist social use to be called liberalism here. And Canada is far more left leaning than the US, which is sinking as of late.

Nothing to brag about, KG.

[kay-gee]

So let's see then...the better alternative is to be a Regressive Convervative?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

So let's see then...the better alternative is to be a Regressive Convervative?

all the best...
How about Christian Conservative?

The Bible is conservative both financially and socially, after all. Meaning personal responsibility, morality and value oriented.

You claim Christian then talk secularist, KG. Need to make up your mind which you are.

[kay-gee]

I'm afraid I'm not ready to join the pistol packin apple pie crowd just yet. Christian Conservatism is just another brand of the same old same old. Nothing new. No creativity, no solutions, just ranting and criticism. Blame immigrants, liberals and welfare moms for all problems, both personal and world!
If you want to demonstrate the power of God....live the life...it is that simple ...really!!!
The difference between Canada and US (both have had good and bad governments) is that while Americans prattle away about their Christian roots and foundation and all that, Canadians simply live the life. I'm speaking of national character now, not liberalism in government which did the homosexual thing. (most Canadians not proud of)
.
Canada is the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30ff) We look after people. Historically a refuge for mis-treated from all over.


Canada is peacemaker (Matt5:9) Our peacekeeping in the world is legendary. Never had a civil war.

Canada is very humble (Matt 23:12) The reason you dont know much of our accomplishments is because we are not braggarts. We are known around the world for our humility and politeness.

Love And Forgiveness for wrongs suffered (1st Cor 13:5) In 1812 when US invaded our country (funny demonstraton of your Christianity there!), we even gave back lands that we had held of yours after we beat you back! Bet that's not in your history books! Would China and Russia have done that? Puh....lease!!!

Please don't get me wrong. I love America and have a huge respect for her. Let it be known that there are differences in our national chacters that differentiate us. Ours is of Christian values, in Practice. That is all.

I hope I have enlightened you bit in these matters.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

KG, you have only confirmed you are a liberal that speaks of God and Bible but lives secularism.

Government comes from the people. If the majority of Canadians didn't endorse the government positions it would not be the government.

Same here.

We are in the End Times and you don't like the Bible condemns it, not praises it.

And I don't think you like what the MK represents. That being a time when what you hold as progressive God says will be not be tolerated.

The US became powerful by conservative principles.

And Canada can be what it is because it has a neighbor that shields it and does most of the military and other work for it.

That does not speak of the glory of Canada. It speaks of its hypocrisy.

As for a refuge, what a load. Canada has some of the most restrictive immigration and related policies in the world. Nor do you have a border with any other country but the US, so you don't have a clue about border issues.

Peacekeepers? Yea, right. Minor players.

Accomplishments? What accomplishments? Canada is trilliions in debt and people have to cross into the US for medical treatment.

No civil war? Give Montreal all a chance and watch them leave the rest.

The War of 1812? The myth of the Canadian Militia? Try history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812).

I will stick with the Bible and God's standards. You go with your secularist interpretation of Christianity, if you must, KG.

Neither Canada of the US live the Christian true standard. But the US comes a lot closer, while fading during the End Time Falling Away.

[kay-gee]

Good discussion....I will be back but I gotta go do other things

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Core, Someday we have to meet in person and discuss some stuff. I really gotta know if you say this stuff with a straight face. If you are actually rolling on the floor laughing, tell me so I can do the same and we'll call it a day. It is not possible to be as brainwashed and out of touch as you pretend to be. Let me try to enlighten you to the truth.

In our system we have a serious problem with vote splitting and balance of power. in other theads I have warned you of this. We have 4 major parties and it is very difficult for the conservative to get control of the government. Some other time I'll explain that in more detail.

I'm OK with end times. We've been in the end times now for 2000 years.

So would you say that God is a Republican? I'm not clear where you are going with that one.

OK this is where it starts getting kinda hilarious. You say the US became powerful by conservative principles. In fairness to you, do you mean just conservative or "Conservative Christian" principles? I gotta ton to say there but I better wait till you clarify.

What do geograpical borders have to do with anything? Refugees come from all over the planet. At one time by ship, now more commonly by airplane.

What military and other work does US do for Canada? please specify.

We have peacekeepers in every conflict since WWII. Nam Korea Cypress Croatia...you name it. And who do you think is holding the Afganistan fort while US is busy struggling in Iraq? Canadian forces of course!

Taking into account the American education system, I wont hold you to blame for not not knowing Canada's accomplishments. The rest of the world knows. Who captured Vimy Ridge, A crucial turning point in World WarI? Canadians.
Who shot down the Red Baron?....A Canadian. What about Dieppe? We lost 20'ooo men there thanks to the bungling of an American General. Did we bitch? No, just did what we had to do. Who liberated Holland? Canadians! Do you rember the Iran hostage crisis during Carter? Who got them out. While American pilots were busy crashing helicopters somewhere, A Canadian task force went in a got the job done. Did we go around bragging about it? No! We just did what any good neibour would do.

Canada isn't into trillions yet. Billions perhaps, not trillions. That would be like what? 30 million population so almost 3 billion a piece in health care Wow. We should all be Superman with that kinda money in. Core....check your data on that one.

A referendum was held to ask Quebec to stay or leave. They chose to stay by barely 51%. Hardly constitutes a civil war. Not one drop of human blood shed over The Quebec issue. They couldn't leave if they wanted to. They are not stupid enough. Do you think they would get as good of treatment from Washington as they do from Canada?

Now for the hysterical part! 1812 a myth? What do you mean.? It was just made up? We made up a Story to tell about the US invading our country. We were indeed Victorious. Gosh Core, open your eyes Bro... Isn't the fact THAT CANADA IS ITS OWN COUNTRY AND NOT PART OF USA PROOF OF THAT?!!!!!! There is no way on This green earth you can be so propagandaized to not understand that!

I also will stick to the Bible. I will strive daily to live the life to which I have been called. In doing so I am in no way expected to believe lies and be blind to historical geo-political realities.

I will repeat US has nothing on Canada for Christian character. Anticipating your next post.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Core, Someday we have to meet in person and discuss some stuff. I really gotta know if you say this stuff with a straight face. If you are actually rolling on the floor laughing, tell me so I can do the same and we'll call it a day. It is not possible to be as brainwashed and out of touch as you pretend to be. Let me try to enlighten you to the truth.
KG, I am far from politically and governmentally out of touch. Far more connected than you.

And a student of history. Coming from northern Indiana we studied the War of 1812, all the Indian wars, etc. My home state has a unique position in those historical events.

My son has an honors degree in history, KG, in example.
In our system we have a serious problem with vote splitting and balance of power.
Fully aware.
in other theads I have warned you of this. We have 4 major parties and it is very difficult for the conservative to get control of the government. Some other time I'll explain that in more detail.
An excuse that does not change the fact liberalism dominates.

Does not matter how many parties, but where the majority position themselves and vote.

I have a lot of knowledge and experience in politics and other such arenas.
I'm OK with end times. We've been in the end times now for 2000 years.
But it has never been like now, KG. Never so absolutely universal in abandoning God.
So would you say that God is a Republican? I'm not clear where you are going with that one.
God is God. Nor am I a Republican.

I am talking the citizens of a country, who allow a government to exist.
OK this is where it starts getting kinda hilarious. You say the US became powerful by conservative principles. In fairness to you, do you mean just conservative or "Conservative Christian" principles? I gotta ton to say there but I better wait till you clarify.
Conservative in being more Christian than not and in believing in more personal freedoms than Canada ever has.

But that is, again, history. In example, where did the Torries go at the end of the war? Canada.
What do geograpical borders have to do with anything?
Everything. Canada has no border problems with its one neighbor, like we do with Mexico. Or South America, where democratic nations struggle against marxists neighbors.
Refugees come from all over the planet. At one time by ship, now more commonly by airplane.
And Canada has one of the most protective immigration policies in the world. It does not welcome with open arms.
What military and other work does US do for Canada? please specify.
Protects your southern border. During the Cold war Alaska gave a screen from Russia and still gives first line protections today from western access.

Canada has no real military to speak of. Is being forced to rebuild a national police, structure though, since terrorist groups are coming in and threatening even you supposed beloved neutral country.
We have peacekeepers in every conflict since WWII. Nam Korea Cypress Croatia...you name it.
Small detachments. Nothing major nor placed in the most dangerous places.
And who do you think is holding the Afganistan fort while US is busy struggling in Iraq? Canadian forces of course!
Bull! America is still the main stay there, followed by Britain.
Taking into account the American education system, I wont hold you to blame for not not knowing Canada's accomplishments. The rest of the world knows. Who captured Vimy Ridge, A crucial turning point in World WarI? Canadians.
You ain't the Canada of WWI and prior, any more. That time is long gone.
Who shot down the Red Baron?....A Canadian. What about Dieppe? We lost 20'ooo men there thanks to the bungling of an American General. Did we bitch? No, just did what we had to do. Who liberated Holland? Canadians! Do you rember the Iran hostage crisis during Carter? Who got them out. While American pilots were busy crashing helicopters somewhere, A Canadian task force went in a got the job done. Did we go around bragging about it? No! We just did what any good neibour would do.

And America has lost a lot more men protecting Canada.

Plus do you want to go into a list of times and events where Canada has refused to take part in issues that were just as critical to them?
Canada isn't into trillions yet. Billions perhaps, not trillions. That would be like what? 30 million population so almost 3 billion a piece in health care Wow. We should all be Superman with that kinda money in. Core....check your data on that one.
Debt Clock (http://www.ndir.com/SI/education/debt.shtml).

Total Debt and Obligations (http://www.fraserinstitute.org/COMMERCE.WEB/product_files/CanadianGovernmentDebt2008.pdf)

Over $2 trillion.
A referendum was held to ask Quebec to stay or leave. They chose to stay by barely 51%. Hardly constitutes a civil war. Not one drop of human blood shed over The Quebec issue. They couldn't leave if they wanted to. They are not stupid enough. Do you think they would get as good of treatment from Washington as they do from Canada?
Missed the point. 49% wanting to leave is big time disharmony.
Now for the hysterical part! 1812 a myth? What do you mean.? It was just made up? We made up a Story to tell about the US invading our country. We were indeed Victorious. Gosh Core, open your eyes Bro... Isn't the fact THAT CANADA IS ITS OWN COUNTRY AND NOT PART OF USA PROOF OF THAT?!!!!!! There is no way on This green earth you can be so propagandaized to not understand that!
Read the link and discover some actual history.
I also will stick to the Bible.
You do not. You accept secularism for government.
I will strive daily to live the life to which I have been called. In doing so I am in no way expected to believe lies and be blind to historical geo-political realities.
Now history is lies. How self serving.
I will repeat US has nothing on Canada for Christian character. Anticipating your next post.

all the best...
Yea, right. You just keep embracing liberal theology if you wish.

All we are doing is disagreeing. Any point in repeating more?

[kay-gee]

Perhaps we should make a date in four years from now to re-open this discussion and compare notes on liberalism after Obama has been at the helm!

I realize that I will not be able to de-program you that easily. As always it has been a lively and delightful conversation, reminiscent of my early days at CTZ.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Amazing. A Christian who supports pro abortion, pro gay rights and a litany of other issues condemned by God.

No, KG, you cannot deprogram me from following the Bible into your double minded kind of thinking. Won't happen.

Later.

[kay-gee]

Core Bro!, you got me wrong. I'm not in support of any of those things. In fact I am very single minded. I just cannot buy into the idea of a country being "Christian". People can be Christians. A country can contain many Christians but a country cannot BE a Christian. It is ridiculous. A country is a political entity, Christianity is a religion. I'm always baffled at why people cannot differentiate the two. What's so hard to get about the story of the coin?...Caesar and God. I made a decision to follow Christ, that makes me a Christian. Part of the duties of that calling are to pay honour and respect to my country and King. I do that by defending the honour of my country the same as you or anyone else should do for their nation. I am saddened that some how that came across as me supporting all these things. Abortion, Gay, etc...I would have much difficulty with those things in our Church, but for country, they play by their own rules. I need not concern much about that. If any lesson should be learned from Beloved Israel is that no nation can be Godly, even those with divine guidance and intervention.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Not much of a Christian life when once can separate government from their beliefs.

And no concern about your government? Stunning excuse, especially when you talk about how superior Canada is as regards the Bible.

Both our countries are in deep with failure and sliding. Canada is ahead in the curve, though.

I am working, at least locally. So, I walk it and talk it.

[kay-gee]

Actually it is easy and necessary to separate Faith from Government. Look at Islam and their insistance on entwining the two. Bad idea! In my reading of the gospels, I have not once encountered any comment toward Rome by Jesus either good or bad. Government is instituted by God to keep SOCIAL order among humans. Ants and bees do this by instinct. People do it by government.
1st Cor 5:13, The distinction is made again. Who are we to judge the world? God judges the outsiders (world). Christians have their hands full trying to keep order in the CHURCH, don't you think?
Of course it bothers me when the government does stupid things! Caesar did some bad things as well. The commandment remains...render unto Caesar what is his and to God what is His! Read the verse "literally" (you are the expert) and you can't draw any other conclusion.
In closing, let me say this....it is the whole duty of the Christian, not to change the WORLD but to draw mken OUT of the world into the kingdom of God.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

I don`t think we should`t call a country Christian, I believe God allowed this country to become the greatest most powerful country on the planet because of the number of Christians in it. God put people and leaders in power and puts a protection over a God fearing country. Look what`s happening to the country when they throw God out, it goes down the drain, the people of countries get just what they ask for by their morals and beliefs.
No I believe a country can be Christian. :nod:

[CoreIssue]

Actually it is easy and necessary to separate Faith from Government. Look at Islam and their insistance on entwining the two. Bad idea! In my reading of the gospels, I have not once encountered any comment toward Rome by Jesus either good or bad. Government is instituted by God to keep SOCIAL order among humans. Ants and bees do this by instinct. People do it by government.
1st Cor 5:13, The distinction is made again. Who are we to judge the world? God judges the outsiders (world). Christians have their hands full trying to keep order in the CHURCH, don't you think?
Of course it bothers me when the government does stupid things! Caesar did some bad things as well. The commandment remains...render unto Caesar what is his and to God what is His! Read the verse "literally" (you are the expert) and you can't draw any other conclusion.
In closing, let me say this....it is the whole duty of the Christian, not to change the WORLD but to draw mken OUT of the world into the kingdom of God.

all the best...
I remind you Jesus and the Apostles preached to the leaders and warned them God would judge them for their actions.

Christ also said governments had a duty to justice in warning that such as the soldier/police do not carry their swords in vain.

Plus, we are in the world but not of the world and have a duty to change those in the world.

Not talking a theocracy, but changing the minds and souls of the leaders, which changes the government.

But you do endorse the Canadian liberal government while claiming to not be involved when it comes to pointing out the bad. Double standard or endorsement of what they do, KG. Cannot have it both ways.

[CoreIssue]

I don`t think we should`t call a country Christian, I believe God allowed this country to become the greatest most powerful country on the planet because of the number of Christians in it. God put people and leaders in power and puts a protection over a God fearing country. Look what`s happening to the country when they throw God out, it goes down the drain, the people of countries get just what they ask for by their morals and beliefs.
No I believe a country can be Christian. :nod:
Agree. But I don't think any on the planet are, any longer.

Look at ours. Loaded with Mormons, Judaism, Humanism, liberal denominations and so forth.

We were founded and built on a Christian foundation. I agree and agree we are not what we could be because that is mostly gone.

[InTheWind]

I don`t think we should`t call a country Christian, I believe God allowed this country to become the greatest most powerful country on the planet because of the number of Christians in it. God put people and leaders in power and puts a protection over a God fearing country. Look what`s happening to the country when they throw God out, it goes down the drain, the people of countries get just what they ask for by their morals and beliefs.
No I believe a country can be Christian. :nod:
Agree. But I don't think any on the planet are, any longer.

Look at ours. Loaded with Mormons, Judaism, Humanism, liberal denominations and so forth.

We were founded and built on a Christian foundation. I agree and agree we are not what we could be because that is mostly gone.


I fully agree, we are not what we should be and as I said the reason we are in the condition we are in. :nod: IMO t he people got what the wanted and deserve with Obama.

[kay-gee]

OK let's get this straight. If you are saying that the early settlers of America were of the Christian persuasion, then I will grant you that. I'm sure it had an influence on early life there, particularly New England area. But to say that the Federal Government incorporated Christian principles as its "modus operandi" just is not true and defies the reality of history.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

I ask you this, why is Israel going through what they`ve been going through for a long time?
My answer would be that they rejected Christ and living under the old law.
Does the bible not say that God puts leaders in power for His purpose, that means good or bad.
Just because people have kicked God out of their lives and the country doesn`t mean it still isn`t under the plans of God.
Have you ever wondered if it were possible what would happen if everyone all of a sudden excepted Christ as there Saviour, would it get worse or better in every country.
There is no doubt in my mind that God put a hedge around the countries that Worshiped Him and the ones that protect Israel.
Do you think God is happy that man has made laws saying we have to except all these different religions, do you think He is a universal God that it doesn`t matter what you believe that it`s just a different way to Him. This and other countries are sick because we`ve lost out identity as a Christian Country and what it stands for.

[Willy]

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/statech.asp:tiphat: (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/statech.asp)

[CoreIssue]

OK let's get this straight. If you are saying that the early settlers of America were of the Christian persuasion, then I will grant you that. I'm sure it had an influence on early life there, particularly New England area. But to say that the Federal Government incorporated Christian principles as its "modus operandi" just is not true and defies the reality of history.

all the best...
You really do not know history when you say things like this, KG.

The prime motive for even coming to the Americas was religious freedom.

Then the English and some other royalty and rich folk began establishing turf for their personal gain.

Read the Preamble to the Constitution. God and Bible, prime motive and foundation behind the Rights.

First two acts of the first Congress were creating Congressional chaplains and military chaplains.

First schools and related were authorized and funded to be created by churches.

Except for a handful of men, all the Founding Fathers were Christians, Bible oriented. And not Church of England, Catholic and that type.

And Willy posted charters. God and Bible is there.

The US was founded on Biblical principles, not perfect, for sure, but definitely the foundation.

Canada was founded on secular loyalty to monarchies. The 'allowed' churches were Catholic and Church of England, in the main.

Big difference.

[CoreIssue]

I ask you this, why is Israel going through what they`ve been going through for a long time?
My answer would be that they rejected Christ and living under the old law.
Does the bible not say that God puts leaders in power for His purpose, that means good or bad.
Just because people have kicked God out of their lives and the country doesn`t mean it still isn`t under the plans of God.
Have you ever wondered if it were possible what would happen if everyone all of a sudden excepted Christ as there Saviour, would it get worse or better in every country.
There is no doubt in my mind that God put a hedge around the countries that Worshiped Him and the ones that protect Israel.
Do you think God is happy that man has made laws saying we have to except all these different religions, do you think He is a universal God that it doesn`t matter what you believe that it`s just a different way to Him. This and other countries are sick because we`ve lost out identity as a Christian Country and what it stands for.
Right on.

The world hates Israel because the Israel is a key part in God's plan. Get rid of Israel and a promise and future of God ruling disappears.

Christianity stirs anger and outrage in Humanists and others. Islam does not. Why? Because God is in Christianity and not in the others.

[kay-gee]

Hmmmm God is ruling from everlasting to everlasting, with or without Israel!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Hmmmm God is ruling from everlasting to everlasting, with or without Israel!

all the best...
You still don't get it, do you?

The eternal NJ comes through Israel via the Abrahamic Covenant.

Without it being so fulfilled, God becomes a liar and Satan keeps the earth.

Or, have you missed the fact that dominion of the earth moved to Satan via the First Adam and returns via the Second Adam? Looks like it.

And don't say already finished, it isn't. God's declared plan demands the MK to bring it to fruition.

We will live in the NJ, on a New Earth. Not in Heaven.

[kay-gee]

Hey hey....This is the Jekyll and Hyde thread. Please no returning to pre-mill and pre-trib discussions. This is the thead that demonstrates our inabilities as people to discuss religion and politics without hostility.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Hey hey....This is the Jekyll and Hyde thread. Please no returning to pre-mill and pre-trib discussions. This is the thead that demonstrates our inabilities as people to discuss religion and politics without hostility.

all the best...
I agree on the keep it on topic. :tiphat:

Hostility is in the eyes of the beholder. ;)

[kay-gee]

Being the stickler you are for grammar, I suppose the word principle means what it means. "Christian Principles". I concede that there were some principles outlined in the foundation. What was sadly lacking was the "Christian Practices!"

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Being the stickler you are for grammar, I suppose the word principle means what it means. "Christian Principles". I concede that there were some principles outlined in the foundation. What was sadly lacking was the "Christian Practices!"

all the best...
Slavery? Accepted throughout the world, but most of the northern states got rid of slavery by about 1800. just in case that is where you were heading.

Relationships with Indians, being half Indian myself? Thanks the French and English for paying Indians to attack the Colonies.

Freedom? More freedom in the US than Canada or Europe.

So please tell me what practices you are talking about?

[kay-gee]

Before I begin presenting my case, I just want to post this to clear things up so that the rest of our discussion can remain in a friendly and non-hostile tone. The original intent of this thread was to show how discussing politics or religion can bring out the very worst in people. I strongly believe it does not have to be the case if people stand behind facts and keep emotions in check. Facts dont incite hostility, emotions do!

Let it be known that I am not an America basher. Never been. Never will be. Growing up in a border town, Americans were a fact of life for me. Many friends and realitives there. I love America and have a great respect for her and her accomplishments. For a country of such a young age to achieved so much is amazing. However, having said that, I am not attacking America, but rather this high horse notion many Ameicans hold that their country is somehow Gods gift to the Earth, to the exclusion of all others. I would like to see all men of every nation come down to earth and realize that their (you know what) stinks like everybody elses. [I would like to say right here, that even my fellow countrymen in Canada have their own brand of self-righteous smugneess that bugs me also.]

Many claim, particularly the Christian right extremists, that America was founded on Christian principles, and somehow has the favour of God with them. To be fair, I have no contention that the earliest documents contain references to supreme being, inalienable rights, freedom to worship according to dictates of conscience, so on and so forth, but there remains a wide gap between the walk and the talk and I believe history bears it out! I intend to show in the next post or so, the flaw of this thinking. If this was a court room, I have every confidence I could sway any jury, (hopefully any lurkers or readers) with the facts of documented historical truth.

Let the fun begin and the fur fly!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Many claim, particularly the Christian right extremists, that America was founded on Christian principles, and somehow has the favour of God with them. To be fair, I have no contention that the earliest documents contain references to supreme being, inalienable rights, freedom to worship according to dictates of conscience, so on and so forth, but there remains a wide gap between the walk and the talk and I believe history bears it out! I intend to show in the next post or so, the flaw of this thinking. If this was a court room, I have every confidence I could sway any jury, (hopefully any lurkers or readers) with the facts of documented historical truth.

Let the fun begin and the fur fly!

all the best...
God favors any nation or group that holds close to the Bible and his ways. Not solely an American thing.

Bring on your case. History bears out that Man is imperfect and never gets it 100% correct, but can still be seen by God as faithful to him. Look at David, Solomon, Moses and others to prove that point.

[kay-gee]

First of all. I know how rigid you are on grammar and word meanings. Let's try to agree on the meaning of "Christian Principle"
Would it be safe to say that: A Christian Principle. Dictionary describes PRINCIPLE as a moral rule or set of ideas which guides behaviour. CHRISTIAN (Literally "Little Christ") of or pertaining to Christ. A CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE is a moral rule carryin the authority Of Jesus Christ via His teachings and by extension the teachings of the apostles in the Holy Bible, the author being the Holy Spirit and in perfect harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Sound reasonable or disagree?

all the best..

[kay-gee]

On the issue of slavery. It's a tough one I know, but it can't be swept under the rug. You say that it was acceptable in many nations. I ask you then, does this qualify it as a "Christian Principle"? Well I can name three off the top of my head, Egypt, Babylon, and Rome. Seems they incurred the wrath of God, not His blessings. We know for a fact, at the time NT was written, slavery existed and was a part of life, not receiving any particular condemnation from the Bible. The book of Philemon is a plea by Paul for a slave owner and slave. Colossians 4:1 speaks directly to Masters of slaves about how to act. The American slavery style paid no heed to this command, and was probably one of the wickedest most vile forms of slavery ever practiced. Imagine this... Kidnapping people from a continent thousands of miles away, stacking them like cattle in boats, jettisoning the ones that died of starvation, selling them at auction, the beatings, whippings, chains etc... England had officially banned slavery by 1820. Apparently American didn't notice! Speaking of Americas success and wealth growth. No wonder when they had free labour!!!
So a civil war was had in order to right the wrong. The war may have officially ended the slave trade, but did not end the abuse and the evil. This is the part that would be funny if it weren't so sad. This non-sense continued...get this!...well into the 1960's!!! Unbelievable! NO COLOUREDS ALLOWED....BACK OF THE BUS, BOY! commonly heard in The supposed "BIBLE BELT" I wont even start on the Ku Klux Klan. I hope there is a special place in the lake of fire for that level of evil. I've always wondered if the burning cross was symbolic of their zealous dedication to "Christian Principles". I realize that citizens have been taught to overlook these matters but the rest of civilization sees them for the hypocrisy they are. The principle in writing was claiming "liberty and justice for all"! I think the pencil may have broken at that point and it should have read...Liberty and justice for all white anglo saxon non-Jewish landowners. We'll never know. The fathers aren't around to ask. Jesus taught that what you sow, you shall likewise reap. I believe that the condition of black white realations in American is the harvest...
My friends (Core) there is no wiggle room here. Hard to spin this one. Do you believe that this system of slavery (sanctioned by government) carries the authority of the teachings of Christ?

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Now on a little happier note. Have you people heard about an event called the UNDERGROUND RAILROAD? Apparently some peace loving church groups such as Quakers recognized the evil of slavery and organized a system of get slaves to freedom. They hid slaves in homes and pushed them on northward and guess where to. Seems to be another country in North American up there (gee I forget the name) that was taking in these abused slaves. People there acted on Christian principles not by an act of law but by kindness of nature. (Matt.5:7) (Luke 10:33)

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

On the issue of slavery. It's a tough one I know, but it can't be swept under the rug. You say that it was acceptable in many nations. I ask you then, does this qualify it as a "Christian Principle"?
Let us go by what the NT says about it. Seek freedom but serve well.

By 1805, I believe the date was, slavery was gone from the northern states.

Canada had slavery as well. Read
(http://www.bccns.com/history_slavery.html)
I will not defend slavery. But the sad fact is that it was accepted in many nations by Christians.

So not a valid argument when slavery existed throughout all the Biblical times and with Godly people.
Well I can name three off the top of my head, Egypt, Babylon, and Rome. Seems they incurred the wrath of God, not His blessings.
They were not condemned for slavery. There condemnation lay in being against God.
We know for a fact, at the time NT was written, slavery existed and was a part of life, not receiving any particular condemnation from the Bible. The book of Philemon is a plea by Paul for a slave owner and slave.
Yep. Paul took the position to seek freedom but if a slave serve well.
Colossians 4:1 speaks directly to Masters of slaves about how to act.
OK.
The American slavery style paid no heed to this command, and was probably one of the wickedest most vile forms of slavery ever practiced.
Man, you are reinventing history. Bad it was, but the worst, no. Not a defense, but not going to let you get away with painting a picture America was worse.
Imagine this... Kidnapping people from a continent thousands of miles away, stacking them like cattle in boats, jettisoning the ones that died of starvation, selling them at auction, the beatings, whippings, chains etc...
And who were the slavers, KG? Africans grabbed their own and sold them to European slavers. Get your history straight.
England had officially banned slavery by 1820. Apparently American didn't notice! Speaking of Americas success and wealth growth. No wonder when they had free labour!!!
Nothern state by 1805.
So a civil war was had in order to right the wrong. The war may have officially ended the slave trade, but did not end the abuse and the evil.
Yea? And the abuses in Canada against Indians and mixed races that led to Acadian migration to Louisiana to become Cajuns, etc?

You are not proving your case. You are emphasizing what I already know and have said. Man is a sad lot, all of us.

What annoys is you attitude Canada is so morally superior, when it is not.
This is the part that would be funny if it weren't so sad. This non-sense continued...get this!...well into the 1960's!!! Unbelievable! NO COLOUREDS ALLOWED....BACK OF THE BUS, BOY! commonly heard in The supposed "BIBLE BELT" I wont even start on the Ku Klux Klan.
And exactly why are you labeling the whole country for the problems of a minority of states? This was not the reality in all the US. Sure not where I grew up.

Indiana was the key route of the Underground Railroad. Or does those efforts go unheeded because they do not fit your agenda, here?
I hope there is a special place in the lake of fire for that level of evil. I've always wondered if the burning cross was symbolic of their zealous dedication to "Christian Principles".
Neither the KKK, neo-nazis, Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons or Rev. Whites represent the Bible or God. All are vile.

But I again note you only focus on the politically correct groups allowed to be attacked.
I realize that citizens have been taught to overlook these matters
Says who? You don't have a clue if you believe that.
but the rest of civilization sees them for the hypocrisy they are.
Meaning the enlightened Canadians and Euope, I assume. Those true defenders of the Bible and God. Yea, right.
The principle in writing was claiming "liberty and justice for all"! I think the pencil may have broken at that point and it should have read...Liberty and justice for all white anglo saxon non-Jewish landowners.
The anti-slavery movement began in the colonies. The first slaves were brought here by England. And guess what, KG, they were whites, not blacks. Called Indentured Servitude, which was also practiced in Cananda.
We'll never know. The fathers aren't around to ask. Jesus taught that what you sow, you shall likewise reap. I believe that the condition of black white realations in American is the harvest...
Our problem is the PC, liberal established created a division in the US, instead of working to unite. Your precious Democratic Party created these problem back in the 60s.

I grew up near Gary. Who got burned out, killed and hurt during the 60s? Whites, not blacks, by blacks.

Who fled the nonsense and radicalism of those groups. Blacks who were God fearing and decent fled to white neighborhoods, where the other blacks labeled them Uncle Toms an Oreos.

You don't seem to know the history. Only the Canadian propoganda.

It is a far more complex issue than you realize, KG.

Do a Google search on this, KG, then tell me about how your 'more civilized' country is so superior:

racial discrimination in canada

My friends (Core) there is no wiggle room here. Hard to spin this one. Do you believe that this system of slavery (sanctioned by government) carries the authority of the teachings of Christ?

all the best...
Not defending slavery. But neither is you labeling and approach to be condoned.

Don't throw bricks when your claimed more Bible based Canada is a house of glass and cards on this issue.

No nation on the earth has ever met your standards to be called Christian.

The US was founded and the first settlers came here to escape the 'enlightened' European State Religion, a system that Canada embraced in the colonial times.

It was the first nation on the earth to give personal and religious freedoms as guarantees and the basis for the country to exist.

Struggles, yes. Perfection, no. But we have been working to grow and get better. And was doing a pretty good progression until about the last 100 years. Now we are sliding badly.

So, you miss the point, entirely. When Israel, OT was in trouble, more than once, God still embraced them as his nation and worth salvaging. When they got better, they got blessings. When they got worse, they lost blessing and gained punishment.

Up until the 60s, God has heavily blessed the US. More so than any other nation.

Now, we are in big trouble. Not because God was slapping us for our history, but because, as a nation, we have left him.

Are you perfect in your daily life? No. But does that mean God is not with you? No.

Our history has been, in the main and majority, a nation of Christian principles and Practices. Never totally success. But the desire to do so was there, but now is gone.

We fought a war to end the evil of denial of freedom to worship God and live as free people. We fought a war to end slavery. We have fought many battles to accomplish right things.

That says we have been a nation willing to fight for what is right. You spin the war for freedom into a condemnation against us. But does evil fight to end its own evil?

No, KG, you are not proving your case, at all.

[CoreIssue]

Now on a little happier note. Have you people heard about an event called the UNDERGROUND RAILROAD? Apparently some peace loving church groups such as Quakers recognized the evil of slavery and organized a system of get slaves to freedom. They hid slaves in homes and pushed them on northward and guess where to. Seems to be another country in North American up there (gee I forget the name) that was taking in these abused slaves. People there acted on Christian principles not by an act of law but by kindness of nature. (Matt.5:7) (Luke 10:33)

all the best...
KG, again you don't know what you are talking about.

The main Underground Railroad ran through Kentucky into Indiana, MY home state. Through were I lived.

There were far more than Quakers involved.

And Quakers are not good Biblical Christians. You need to study up on what they believe. They believe in a mystical connection to God and do not hold the Bible highly as literal document.

Quakers, Shakers, Dancers, Mormons and more come out of a time that rejected Biblical Christianity for emotional and experience based beliefs.

Get the idea of the name? They believe the Holy Spirit makes them quake, shake, speak in tongues, laugh and so on when he comes upon them.

Nor can I forget polygamy is there as well, at least in the traditional beliefs.

Indiana was strongly against slavery, as were many states.

So, don't try to spin this down to a select few. It wasn't. It was an extremely heated issue.

[Willy]

http://canadiangenocide.nativeweb.org/intro2.html

[kay-gee]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Willy. I was going to start on the treatment of the natives people next.

Core, you make some valid points. I do not want to tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone is guilty for the slavery issue. The original discussion here though is about the federal government in Washington being founded on "Christian principles". It wrote documents that it just didn't live up to in practice. As for Quakers...I said groups such as Quakers meaning I realize there were others. I didn't intend to do an expose' on these groups. The point is good people helped slaves to get to Canada and to safety!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Willy. I was going to start on the treatment of the natives people next.

Core, you make some valid points. I do not want to tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone is guilty for the slavery issue. The original discussion here though is about the federal government in Washington being founded on "Christian principles". It wrote documents that it just didn't live up to in practice. As for Quakers...I said groups such as Quakers meaning I realize there were others. I didn't intend to do an expose' on these groups. The point is good people helped slaves to get to Canada and to safety!

all the best...
You still miss the point, KG. The founding father did live up to the principles far better than such as Canada did.

Who did they fund to create our original public and college schools? Churches, not secularists. Christian principle there.

Who paid Indians to kill women and children? The government of Canada.

People also fled Canada to to the US to escape persecution. A two way street.

Canada also had slaves. So don't get all superior.

They authorized a war to end slavery in southern states when they tried to break away to defend it. You conveniently miss that point.

You pretend Canada has been so all perfect when its history has major black spots as well.

The US was founded by people seeking religious and personal freedom. Canada was populated by people remaining loyal to a monarchy and State Church. Big difference.

No nation is perfect. But the US has been the beacon of the world for a very long time. Canada never has had that title.

Just to kick in, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Canada) is the breakdown of Christian beliefs in Canada. Real bragging rights there. Liberal upon liberal and comes from the old State Religions established back under France and England.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States) is the US.

The point is the reflection of the difference between historical US and Canadian thinking.

When the US broke from England for freedom, the Tories of the US fled to Canada to get back under the monarchy. Very different mind sets, KG.

Perfect living of Christian principles? Hardly. But at least striving to do so for over centuries, something Canada cannot claim.

[kay-gee]

I had intended to start on the Native issue, but will hold off pending further investigation. I want to have my ducks in a row when I present my case. In the last post or so, something was brought up that I feel needs addressing.

Read Romans chapter 13.

A tax revolt is not a "Christian Principle". Neither is rebelling against a king. England was footing the bill for early infrastructure in the colonies, roads etc... but certain unruly men felt somehow that rendering unto Caesar, what was Caesars was wrong.

The bit about FREEDOM is a total laugh. Freedom from what? you think Britain is tyrannical? Ba ha ha ha ha. Britain had colonies all over the world. Has Australia suffered?, NZ, Hong Kong, India? England was the greatest civilation the world had seen to that point. All her colonies were founded on peace order and good govrnment.
Try living under FRENCH or SPANISH rule!!!!! Thank those guys for Haiti, Mexico, and most of Central and South America where lawlessness is the order of the day.
As a side note....Do you know that in the whole Carribean area, The Bahamas is about the only country worth a hoot. Guess what. An English colony up to 1973.

So really the issue with England and King George, was a few power-mongers that saw tax money going to the King, that they believed should be going into THEIR pockets. And to think you could ever be free from taxation!...well...It's too funny....my 51 year old heart cant take it! The mighty tax free America turns around and institutes The IRS, arguably one of the most tyrannical tax agencies in the world, using all sorts of coersion and fear against its own citizens.

There is no freedom from taxes...It's a non starter.

On the matter of the loyalists...They were chased out of US on threat of death by the rebels. They were merely trying to live up to their christain beliefs of Romans 13. Honouring the King and paying custom. Wow...such a crime?

That's it for now...waiting for response...

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Nice rewrites of history, KG.

I guess you forget the rebellions in England or the Magna Carta, in example.

There are those who would dispute you on the Caribbean as well. Many say Bermuda is better. But that is a subjective debate. :D

It is rated as having a high crime rate.

But crime is becoming an increasing issue everywhere. I am fortunate to live in a city with one of the lowest crime rates in the US, but it is still an issue to deal with.

Australia was a penal colony. Forced settlement.

England didn't found the American colonies. Colonist did. The the rich folk came over when it they viewed it as a place to grab grand estates, make money and be in power. So keep the history correct.

Canada began under the Hudson Bay Company, meaning French. England took over.

Hong King area was not founded by Brittain. It had a standing population for millennia before. England took control.

So, keep the history straight. England was a military force backing commercial expansionism.

[kay-gee]

Bermuda has a rich British heritage as well but it is not in the Carribean. Much too far North and east. The Bahamas barely makes it, actually being on the very outer fringes of the Cariribean. Yes we got crime alright, but it is still a very peaceful and ordered society, not strangled by endless civil wars and dictatorships common in the Latin Am area.
We gotta be careful not to stretch the point to much. The main point I was making was that nobody coming from British rule suffered that much and all those places I mentioned were/are fairly successful and prosperous. I believe they owe it to peace, order and good governance.
Oh yeah...in 1022 AD I don't think there were right wing evangelists running around claiming that the Magna Carta was a result of Christian Principles.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Ask India, in example. Or how they treated sailors on their ships, in example.

Magna Carta was in 1215, not 1022.

Don't even try to claim there were liberals back then.

Rome was a theocracy, neither evangelical, conservative or liberal.

Even then, it didn't hold up, as the prior attempts did not. The monarchy was not going to tolerate challenges to its power.

England, France and Spain were all bad characters.

[kay-gee]

All of North America is too blame for the atrocities against the native peoples. Canada (though not genocide) is guilty of the residential school fiasco. We thought at the time that we were doing the right thing by providing the oppurtunity for education for these neglected dis-placed people. The mistake was turning them over to a system run by sexually frustrated clergymen. It was several decades later that the truth of the goings on became evident and even continued on into recent times at RC boys schools etc... No excuse. At least the government did the right thing and has been making amends, in many cases large cash pay-outs to victims. Being a Just society it is the least we can do. The article supplied so graciously by Willy is actually by an axe grinder looking for some big bucks. Much of what he says is exaggerated or simply false. But hey, who am I to judge!

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Now that I've fessed up, I'm wondering if you would care to comment on the American historical event known as the trail of tears (1834).

all the best...

[Willy]

John 2:24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.

John 2:25 He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.... none righteous .. :not:

[CoreIssue]

KG, here (http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ai/arp/ls/pubs/cp1969/cp1969-eng.asp) is a formal document on the Canadian issues. It is more than just school issues.

And there were atrocities against Indians by Canadians and vica virca.

Plus the mixed, many of which left and moved to Louisiana because of persecution in Canada.

Just pointing out there is more than you are implying.

But, with that said, I grew up near the Trail of Death in Indiana and now live near the Trail of Tears in Georgia.

Plus, I am about half Indians, so. I believe my last name is a Dit name given by the French way back in the Hudson Bay Trading Company era. Been a mix of my ancestors and Indians for generations.

Also, my family was a first in settler to Kentucky.

Just some background to say my family has more than a casual relationship to these things.

A lot of history involved. Made worse by the British and French paying Indians to come out of the Indian Territory (Indiana/Indian territory name relationship). Fench and Indian Wars etc.

Indians brought a lot of issues upon themselves. Settlers brought issues upon them. There were historical reasons behind a lot of the conflicts started by both sides.

Many Indian cultures were not admirable. You want to hear about the slavery, polygamy, abortion, condoned adultery, constant warfare among themselves and other practices by various tribes?

So, yes, plenty of guilt to go around, on all sides. Not the slightest doubt to it. No effort to say otherwise.

Why do the 'white European cultures get blamed the most?' Because they won. Simple as that.

We need to move past it and live like fellow humans.

But not going to happen. Serbs and others, Shia and Sunni and on and on hate each other for ancient grievances, some millennia old. Humans are truly a sad lot.

[kay-gee]

I cant dis-agree with that.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Mark 12:31, Jesus says the the second greatest commandment is to love your neibour as yourself. A Christian Principle in its most simplicity and directness. With this in mind, why did you attack your northern neibour in 1812? Especially a peaceful, good neibour as Canada. Nothing to do with Indian tribes and all that malarky. It was mostly a decision by war hawks in Congress, hungry for territorial expansion.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Mark 12:31, Jesus says the the second greatest commandment is to love your neibour as yourself. A Christian Principle in its most simplicity and directness. With this in mind, why did you attack your northern neibour in 1812? Especially a peaceful, good neibour as Canada. Nothing to do with Indian tribes and all that malarky. It was mostly a decision by war hawks in Congress, hungry for territorial expansion.

all the best...
What a pile, KG.

Canada was part of Britain, not an independent country, with their military in Canada. Britain was attacking and blockading the US. Britain was funding and supplying Indian attacks on the US via Canada. Britain even put warships on the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence and attacked the US. Britain invaded the US.

Get your history straight.

It is still called the Militia Myth, that the Canadian militia did most the fighting, not British troops.

Thank Britain for that part of your history.

[kay-gee]

Oh, my history is straight on that event Core. I've even been to most of the sites of the battles. I'm afraid it was Imperialism. They would have been blockading the Great Lakes for what purpose exactly? America is surrounded on 3 sides by ocean and thus easy acess to the world. It is hilarious the spin that gets put on these things on the various sides of an event.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Oh, my history is straight on that event Core. I've even been to most of the sites of the battles. I'm afraid it was Imperialism. They would have been blockading the Great Lakes for what purpose exactly? America is surrounded on 3 sides by ocean and thus easy acess to the world. It is hilarious the spin that gets put on these things on the various sides of an event.

all the best...
Really?

KG, Indiana didn't even become a State until 1816.

You don't know what you are talking about. There was no west sea access at that time.

In 1811 the Indians were still being paid by the Brits via Canada to raid the east coast.

Guess you never heard of the Battle of Lake Erie.

Some history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812).

[kay-gee]

Great article. There were several issues at play in the war of 1812. As the article say further down, that one of the US iniatives was to seize Canada as a bargaining tool against Britain. Jefferson guessed that it would be as easy as marching in. I seriously doubt that it would have been returned at the end of hostilities. Imperialistic expansionism dosent work that way, and certainly not in a rich natural resource place as Canada.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

I have made all the points I wanted to make. I rest my case at this time. Since there is no judge and jury, let the discussion remain for all who pass by to read and draw their own conclusions. I have proved by history that Christian Principles were not a factor in the development of the nation as is so widely and falsely believed by many. This is a young nation that is purported to have been founded on the Principles of Jesus Christ, Yet endorsed human slavery, tax rebellions, genocide and dis-placement of native peoples, and invasion of friendly countries. I really cant see Jesus putting His seal of approval on these things.
So you see....A country cannot be a Christian....Only People can be Chrisians. There is what is Caesars and what is Gods. Christianity is a religion, Patriotism is secular. We have to stop cross contamination of the two. Some day we will learn this. Someday I hope!!!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Christianity is a religion, Patriotism is secular. We have to stop cross contamination of the two. Some day we will learn this. Someday I hope!!!
S0, government is no place for God?

Sad commentary, KG. But ties right in to being non liberal on the Christian side of your thinking.

After all, you cannot be literal and embrace that thinking.

And what were they suppose to do, in example, about the British paying Indians, etc, to kill Americans in America? Sit back and honor the border that Canada did not honor? Not react to them in the territories?

Get off the oh so superior Canada attitude, KG. Canada was very much a part of Britain back then.

[Jessie]

I have made all the points I wanted to make. I rest my case at this time. Since there is no judge and jury, let the discussion remain for all who pass by to read and draw their own conclusions. I have proved by history that Christian Principles were not a factor in the development of the nation as is so widely and falsely believed by many. This is a young nation that is purported to have been founded on the Principles of Jesus Christ, Yet endorsed human slavery, tax rebellions, genocide and dis-placement of native peoples, and invasion of friendly countries. I really cant see Jesus putting His seal of approval on these things.
So you see....A country cannot be a Christian....Only People can be Chrisians. There is what is Caesars and what is Gods. Christianity is a religion, Patriotism is secular. We have to stop cross contamination of the two. Some day we will learn this. Someday I hope!!!

all the best...

I see what you are doing.

its all or nothing ,thats how your viewing it.
our gov. was based on christian principles. our standard of law was.
but.... did they carry it out properly no. excuses and rationalizations to do as they pleased.although many in the south called themselves christians and went to church every week yet continued in wickedness,
no not saved.

so you see there was a standard. was it never carried out? no.
was it carried out properly all the time? no.

its not a either/or thing.

as far as cross contamination of the religious and secular,
how far do you want to take this?

if morals which are from religious are totaly disregarded, there is no law,
it ends in anarchy. because the thinking then goes, well we cant have morals, so we just disinigrate eventually. and thats what we see going on here. this thinking destroys communities and countrys.

the two work together... too there has to be a choice in gov. which God they will serve. a false one, hell to pay, serve the real one, things tend to life....
thats just the reality of it.

[kay-gee]

Jessie...I dont want government to provide my moral standard for me. That is the work of my church. We strive to reach people with the news that there is a better Kingdom and one that they can be a citizen of. Why would I want government to set a moral code for me, with their power lust, war mongering, greedy ways? I only expect my government to protect me, educate me, medicate me, and provide roads so I can get around.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Great discussion. I would like to skim back a bit and just tie up some loose ends. Core, you made the statement in post#208 that you had more freedoms than Canada or Europe.
Very curious...Please tell one freedom you had/have as an American citizen that I don't also enjoy as a Canadian. And personally I dont give a hoot about carrying a pistol (no need in a peaceful law abibiding society) so you don't have to bring up the bearing of arms. I really want to hear this cause I gotta know what I've been missing.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

(no need in a peaceful law abibiding society)

I gotta laugh at that one Kay-Gee, just where is this Paradise?
Your dream of such a place will only last until your caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. Then at that moment before death you`ll wish you were armed. Or the police would show up and save ya, oh and guess what they`ll be carrying on their side. Why do they need guns in your paradise?

[Willy]

Great discussion. I would like to skim back a bit and just tie up some loose ends. Core, you made the statement in post#208 that you had more freedoms than Canada or Europe.
Very curious...Please tell one freedom you had/have as an American citizen that I don't also enjoy as a Canadian. And personally I dont give a hoot about carrying a pistol (no need in a peaceful law abibiding society) so you don't have to bring up the bearing of arms. I really want to hear this cause I gotta know what I've been missing.

all the best...

... is there another Canada out there I don't know about??

http://www.primetimecrime.com/Recent/Murder/Lower%20Mainland%20Murders%202008.htm

... none righteous ... :not:

...lets find some balance here .... things have changed. :shrug:

[Willy]

The world looks at the "Christian West" both Canada and United States and says, "That's what Christians do?" They look at the lack of moral conscience. They see the rampant greed, the abortion, the two-faced politics and all other things bad ..... and they count each of you .. and me .. as a part of it.

For the sake of Christian Testimony, I'm not sure we should be too close to any "Nation" other than the one we have been saved into.
We can certainly pray for, and if possible, elect people of high moral value but both of our Nations are going the other way ... Fast.


There was once a great blessing on this continent even when you consider past atrocities and that blessing is being withdrawn as we withdraw from God. ... We reap what we sow.

I think the blessing followed the spread of the Gospel.

Myself, I see two distinct aspects from the very genesis of our two countries. One is the bringing of the Gospel to this Continent ... and the blessing included ... and then what came in right behind, taking advantage of that blessing and representing all the bad and evil that resides in each of us.

The great Commission was to bring the Gospel to all inhabitants of the earth, not to conquer foreign lands, subjugate it's inhabitants and ruin the earth.

So, we see the battle of Spirit and flesh. We see it ... the world does not. Perhaps in this, we have all failed.:feeling:

[Jessie]

Jessie...I dont want government to provide my moral standard for me. That is the work of my church. We strive to reach people with the news that there is a better Kingdom and one that they can be a citizen of. Why would I want government to set a moral code for me, with their power lust, war mongering, greedy ways? I only expect my government to protect me, educate me, medicate me, and provide roads so I can get around.

all the best...


a gov without any morals is gonna protect you, educate you, mediate you and provide you roads?

I dont think so....

YOU are not their concern.

[CoreIssue]

Tell me, KG, who should be the guide for the moral character of a nation if not God?

[kay-gee]

As I have thoroughly demonstrated, a nation is "amoral". Is God in all these things I pointed out? Is God in Las Vegas? Is God in Hollywood? What moral direction are you exactly talking about? US and Canada are both countries full of people doing what they do...just and unjust, good and evil. US in particular is blessed with immense wealth. That is a result of a policy of flat out dog eat dog capitailism, nothing to do with God. US is a superpower because it has a government willing to invest a lot of money in that. God has nothing to do with that. Do you seriously think US are the first wealthy and well armed nation? Babylon was a wealthy nation. Egypt, Rome, Greece, and on and on. Look at the armies of Alexander etc...were these "Christian Principle" nations?
I am not saying US is a bad country. There is a lot about US I admire, but you have to get down to the fact, that it is a COUNTRY, period! not a Christian Country. A country cannot be a Christian as I have said many times. Only people can be Christians.
What can I say? Is there an analogy that I could use to make this more clear?
There is only one Godly Kingdom and that is the Kingdom of God. His true church.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

KG, we already know all humans fail. A nation is group failure, but still based on individual failures.

You are trying to invite excuses for supporting non Biblical behavior on a national scale.

Thus supporting the likes of Clinton and Obama as 'good government.'

Not working.

[kay-gee]

I take it that you agree with me, at least in part.

Matthew 15:8-9.......You see it is not the Godly Blah blah blah that brings the blessing of God. It is the actions and obedience to the will of God that invoke His blessing. If God were able to honour and bless activities that are contrary to His written word, then His word would be rendered unreliable! Correct? We do not want to go there.

Let me say in closing...Long live the USA! I've lived in 2 countries now and proud to have her as neibour.

The question still is out there Core. What freedoms did we not enjoy as Canadians, that you did as American? I would really like to know.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

What freedoms did we not enjoy as Canadians, that you did as American? I would really like to know.

Wood Stock :D

[CoreIssue]

Only in the part that all of us fail. Not in the part that we can judge government conduct on morality different than individuals.

As for examples, it is a crime in Canada to say homsexuality is wrong, among a list of other things.

How about when FOX was banned in Canada but CNN was not?

Right bear arms is there.

The Canadian form of government does allow more governmental direct control of media and such than does the US.

None perfect. But the US did prosper when it feared God. When they began disappearing, so did the blessings.

Now many celebrate the likes of the Kennedy's, with their bloody and corrupt history, the Clinton's with theirs, Barney Frank and others open homosexuality and corruption from the Republican side, as well. It is just not as out there as the Democratic side.

We should not celebrate these things as good for a government to do and think. But you do back these folk.

[CoreIssue]

What freedoms did we not enjoy as Canadians, that you did as American? I would really like to know.Wood Stock :D
:roflmbo:

[kay-gee]

Hmmm let's see... I was free to live in a house without jail bars on the windows. I was free to go to a school that had no metal detectors and not a single security guard. I was free to talk about anything I wanted in school including religion. I was free from being drafted against my will into a war in which I believe was unjust. I was free from the racial hatred. I am free to fly to Cuba for a vacation!
Oh and this...when we got bored with Canadian Television we simply turned the dial (yes dial, rememeber life before the remote?) to American TV. No problem.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Ah, yes, the old bait and switch argument.

Nope, does not fly.