Jekyll and Hyde religion

[kay-gee]

It doesn't have to fly. It is how it was plain and simple. I know. I was there!

Resistance is futile....you know, once in a while it wouldn't hurt to just say "I agree"

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

It doesn't have to fly. It is how it was plain and simple. I know. I was there!

Resistance is futile....you know, once in a while it wouldn't hurt to just say "I agree"

all the best...
There how? Explain.

And no, because it isn't something they will go along with does not mean you have to endorse it or seek to put the likes of Hilary or Obama in office.

Understanding and capitulation are two very different things.

I takes people to change government. Locally, we are slowly changing somethings because we believe they need changed and are willing to fight for change.

Example is a tool of change. Saying Christian and backing this nonsense is the wrong example.

[kay-gee]

I am drawing the conclusion that men will see what they want to see.

The amill vs pre-mill issue is much like the half full vs half empty water glass quandry.

It is doubtful there will ever be any kind of agreement or enlightenment on either side.

To say that there was a debate is incorrect really. A debate would have a referee adjudicating the arguments from an unbiased position.

Let's face it! CTZ is a pre-mill site. No debates. It's really pre-mill or the high-way. Fair enough. It is owned and operated by people of this doctine. It does get sorta tiring though. All the ranting about proof proof proof. Just recently, there was a long time member on here basically saying that amills are horrible apostate heretics and basically Satans servants. Not a stitch of proof or a solitary Bible verse offered in some 11 0r so posts that I counted.

But as soon as Kay-gee says "Whoa wait a minute! let's look at this"...It's proof proof proof..Shut up or give proof! Know what? There is no such thing as proof! Remember those infamous words of Pontius Pilate "What is truth" When a mans mind is made, it is made.

The cat is out of the bag, and the true colours have been shown.

Perhaps it's time to drop the whole thing and live in peace. If we are still alive when the Lord comes we'll have the answers.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

So, you claim what the Bible says is what you think and dispute you can debate what the Bible says based on literal words and their meanings?

That is an excuse to keep believing what you wish, not a reason.

You have NEVER offered a verse or any such thing as evidence. You just declare.

Apostasy means falliing away from the literal teachings of God. A refusal to accept literal truth but a pursuit of self belief, in essence.

Amillennialism is a prime example of the meaning. A total refusal to accept literal words to justify a man made doctrine.

It was invented by Catholicism to justify the Pope and whole RCC hierarchical power structure, including political for centuries. To deny it was to risk redicule, exile and even death.

So, yea, there is good reason to reject it.

And if you say there is no such thing as proof in the Bible, then why bother trying to say we are wrong and you are right? I believe the term for that is hypocrosy. As in, cannot prove it, so that makes your opinion right and mine wrong because you are what, spiritually superior?

Same logic you use to claim to be solidly Christian in your beliefs while defending humanism as the greatest thing around for government.

You really don't have a clue what the Bible teaches when you make such proclamations.

And don't go there with here you go again accusations when you are always being critical and dismissive of what I believe. That is hypocrosy.

[kay-gee]

So you are saying that I am a horrible Christian?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

So you are saying that I am a horrible Christian?

all the best...
I am saying you are hanging onto the world too much and not liking what the Bible teaches.

NT is pretty accurate for you. A baby in Christ still on milk that never matures to solid food because you do not want to.

Hard to let go of those liberal teachings when the Bible has some very hard core positions that do not allow the shades of gray you want to see.

And yea, when you read Revelation literally God is an iron fisted God that will smash many millions of people and throw them in the Lake of Fire. A lot of suffering caused by God.

But that is reality. Same God who wiped out the world with the Flood.

You also don't like the picture the Bible paints of people, as is obvious from your praise of socialistic government where you see rule of Man as benevolent and wise. Man, as a race, is greedy, foolish, spiritually blind, power hungry and pleasure seekers. Not very nice, in fact.

I imagine, could be wrong, you are not comfortable with the concept of the Lake and God condemning people to eternal punishment. Just don't think about it. But, could be wrong.

Sure, I would prefer none go to the Lake. But I see it as justice, which they bring on themselves.

[kay-gee]

Oh, I believe in the lake of fire. Make no mistake about that. I am actually quite fundamentalist. There is nothing in the Bible that I like or dislike. It is what it says.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Oh, I believe in the lake of fire. Make no mistake about that. I am actually quite fundamentalist. There is nothing in the Bible that I like or dislike. It is what it says.

all the best...
You are double minded. No doubt to it.

[kay-gee]

Double minded? hmmm...That don't sound too good.

I don't think social democratic governments are necessarily benevolent or wise. There are many self serving hipocritical types in there as well. But I do believe in the long run that security and support flows out to a greater number of people under this type of system. In a few years you will know what I mean.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

No. It does not.

Fewer procedures are offered, you can die waiting to get the examinations to determine what you need, there are cut off ages for procedures, usually around 65 and more.

If it was so blasted great Canadians would not be coming across the border to get medical treatment and paying 100% out of their pockets.

I was treated for a serious injury under that marvelous system in Scotland. You can keep it.

What drives costs up in the US are the liberals' laws in place that makes malpractice insurance absurd and allowed for things that should never be allowed. And not doing some common sense efforts that would greatly reduce the cost of medicine.

Two easy examples, but not medical, are someone breaks into a building gets hurt and they can sue the owner and being able to sue for falling off the top a step ladder where it is clearly labeled not to stan on the top.

Ridiculous!

[kay-gee]

I wasn't only talking medical. I mean better across the board. I came from a social Utopia and gotta tell you. We are better educated, have cleaner more vibrant cities, less crime, great safety nets such as pension, unemployment insurance, maternity, on and on. Any country can do it. It is a matter of what the government chooses to invest in...war or it's citizens. Believe me. I know what I'm talking about. I'm now living in a country that is the complete opposite. The government in Bahamas basically gives you zippity doo dah. We are grateful to have a road (if you can call it that) from one end of the island to the other.
Also, you keep mentioning hordes of Canadians crossing the border for medical. Hasn't been my experience. Do you have any non-tainted statistics to back this up? (please not a link to the brochure of some American medical insurance company etc...).

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Rationing in Canada (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/01/29/john-turley-ewart-rationing-health-care-in-canada-continues-to-take-its-toll.aspx)

More (http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/03/horrors-of-rationed-health-care-in.html)

More (http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Canada.pdf)

And I could keep going.

Canada is in deep financial troubles. US is heading there with the socialist model Obama wants.

Real mess on both countries hands. Just don't use Canada and the word Utopia together. That is a joke.

There are no Utopias in this world.

[kay-gee]

I just got booted from a Christian forum. It seems like if you are frank with people, they percieve it as being nasty. I don't know. I am coming to my wits end with it all. I'm beginning to wonder why bother discussing relgion with anyone. Everyone thinks THEY have the truth. If so, then why are there so many contradictory view points on every issue? People that are steepd in a certain doctrine will not budge for anything. That's just how it is. They look at you as some kind of know it all when you try to teach them the way more accurately. I really am becoming to believe that I am NOT my brothers keeper. I have to deal with getting myself to eternal life. Every person has to be responsible for their own eternal destiny.
I've said my piece. Have a good night!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Well, you don't get yourself to eternal life, God does, once you are saved. You cannot earn it. It is a gift, not something you earn or create for yourself.

But with that said there are many boards that demand you adhere to their doctrines. That is one of the reasons CTZ exists, so we can be different, discuss and so forth, as long as one abides by certain basic crucial rules.

Why did you get booted? Over what issue?

If you want, send me a link to that board. I may be familiar with it from the past and would look it over to see what kind of board it is.

Better believe I am not welcome on Amil, Post-Trib, Catholic and a list of other doctrinally driven boards. I put verses out and get slammed with doctrinal declarations, personal attacks and banning for daring to disput them with the Bible.

[kay-gee]

No, I don't think it is that kind of board. The topics are pretty open. The discussions are more between members than between members and owners like CTZ.

It's my fault. I am man enough to take the blame. I was harsh with people. I went so far as to suggest to a poster that they had a "learning disabillty"

I think it is just called Bible forums.org or something like that. Ltanner turned me onto it.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

[QUOTE=CoreIssue;36590]Well, you don't get yourself to eternal life, God does, once you are saved. You cannot earn it. It is a gift, not something you earn or create for yourself.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

There....at least I said it nicely!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Nope, Bible is quite clear.
Galatians 2
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ga%202&version=31#fen-NIV-29087d)]
2 Timothy 1
But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
You don't have a crowbar big enough to wedge works into salvation.

God is quite clear how it works:
Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28138l)] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28140m)] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

No mights or maybes. Will, period. And nothing in all of creation, which includes you, no exemption clause.

It is actually pride and ego that allows anyone to think they have any role in their own salvation. It is a lack of total trust in Christ.

As for the other site, no warning, just gone? Or did you, no disrespect, crank up in one of your verbal runs? :eek:

[kay-gee]

Actually I still have access but very limited and I can't post until I've proven that I respect the rules. I'm actually posting on a thread to moderators only, where you try to work out your beefs. I'll give them credit. They are pretty cool that way.

BTW i'm kinda surprised. I never took you as a Calvinist.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Actually I still have access but very limited and I can't post until I've proven that I respect the rules. I'm actually posting on a thread to moderators only, where you try to work out your beefs. I'll give them credit. They are pretty cool that way.

BTW i'm kinda surprised. I never took you as a Calvinist.

all the best...
Then you can get back in.

I reject Calvinism. Total Predestination is error. I am a Secure Arminianist.

We come to Christ in freewill and then are predestined to success. Very clearly stated in the Bible. As in Romans 8, those who love, a freewill action, are predestined, meaning determined by God.

Being born-again we are shielded from condemnation by being no longer subject to Law via Christ''s substitutionary sacrifice in our stead. Law condemns and we are not subject to it.

Plus, our spirits are pure so our flesh drives our sins, not our spirit. Eve was pure in both spirit and flesh, so it was her spirit that sinned, not her flesh. But that sin made her whole being sinful.

Grace means gift, not works. Bible is quite clear if works enter in any manner then it isn't grace.

Again not being literal works against you, KG. I posted verses that deny pure Arminianism and have debated many. All have to add clauses and words not in the Bible.

[kay-gee]

We come to Christ in freewill and then are predestined to success. Very clearly stated in the Bible. As in Romans 8, those who love, a freewill action, are predestined, meaning determined by God.



Ok...so what about people that NO LONGER love?

Why can they not make their exit also by "free-will" ?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

We come to Christ in freewill and then are predestined to success. Very clearly stated in the Bible. As in Romans 8, those who love, a freewill action, are predestined, meaning determined by God.

Ok...so what about people that NO LONGER love?

Why can they not make their exit also by "free-will" ?

all the best...
Read the verses, KG. Says will not happen.

Many claim to love Christ and be saved that never were. Cults do but never were. People who claim works do but never were. In example:
Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Anyone who depends on their own efforts to be saved are not saved. The Bible is quite clear we must recognize we are hopeless to save ourselves and must turn to Christ in faith and repentance.

Again, I posted passages, such as Romans 8, that tell you none who love Christ will be lost and nothing in all of creation can take anyone from Christ once his.

Why do you disregard those verses?

You are adding qualifiers that do not exist in the Bible. Where is the line one crosses to be lost if you are right?

Christ died ONCE for all sin. Born-again is an instant act at repentance, not a process over a lifetime. Sanctification is the process that follows born-again.

Yet again you are using your personal judgment and thinking over the Bible. Why don't you just trust what the Bible literally says?

[kay-gee]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Faith without works is DEAD James 2:26

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Faith without works is DEAD James 2:26

all the best...
Just throw all the other verses out and take this one out of context and alter the meaning. Right, KG? That justifies disregarding all the others? Right again, KG?

You do that all the time. Repeatedly.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faithClaims, not has. Pay attention to what is literally said.
but has no deeds? The Bible clearly says when one is saved there will be good works, not might.
Can such faith save him?Faith means trusting Christ, not self or works. It is dead faith.
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. False faith is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. Works is a result of faith and salvation, not a way to salvation. Which, per Romans 8 you never loose once gained.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. Big deal just believing in God. Demons, fallen angels and a lot of humans do. But they do not give themselves to him, trust him or ask his forgiveness.


Just believing does not mean one has faith in something to save them. Plus many false religions have faith in something. But it is dead faith because it is false faith.

[QUOTE]
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

[kay-gee]

Salvation comes at the end when we are judged. This will be according to DEEDS. Rev 20:12-13 You read that "literally"...No?

all the best...

[InTheWind]

Salvation comes at the end when we are judged. This will be according to DEEDS. Rev 20:12-13 You read that "literally"...No?

all the best...

Oh boy, now ya opened up a can of worms.

[CoreIssue]

Salvation comes at the end when we are judged. This will be according to DEEDS. Rev 20:12-13 You read that "literally"...No?

all the best...
Incredible! You just tossed out every verse that says by faith alone. More shopping cart theology.

You keep reading verses out of context and totally failing to harmonize all the verses on an issue.
Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the Second Resurrection where the damned are judged, no saints. Saints are in the First Resurrection. This is after the current earth is destroyed and the New Earth is created.

And yes, condemnation is for what they did. They didn't repent so they stand responsible for their sins.

I posted a whole list of verses declaring salvation is by grace alone and that works nullify grace. Yet you just dump them.
Ephesians 2
4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Grace is a gift. You cannot earn it.
Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%204&version=31#fen-NIV-28011a)] 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%204&version=31#fen-NIV-28016b)]

Clearly says not a gift but wages. Does not get you salvation.

And salvation is an instantaneous act. You are born-again by the Holy Spirit, your spirit purified immediately. God cannot reside in and unclean Temple.

You are dead to Law and only Law can condemn. Spelled that out in verses from Romans I posted.

You are declaring yourself you own savior.

[CoreIssue]

Salvation comes at the end when we are judged. This will be according to DEEDS. Rev 20:12-13 You read that "literally"...No?

all the best...

Oh boy, now ya opened up a can of worms.
Big wiggly ones.

[kay-gee]

No, I don't dump those verses. I just don't believe that they are saying anyting about maintaining your standing before GOD

True faith is OBEDIENT faith (2Cor 2:9)

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

No, I don't dump those verses. I just don't believe that they are saying anyting about maintaining your standing before GOD

True faith is OBEDIENT faith (2Cor 2:9)

all the best...
Then if one does not have true faith they were never saved and thus one cannot lose what they never had, can they?

But you are dumping them when you say you can loose salvation and have to work for it.

Salvation is by FAITH, no works. You are adding works.

Born-again is at repentance, not after you die if your works are sufficient.

And they do say it all about one standing. Romans 8 says those who love God, a freewill act, are PREDESTINED, meaning done deal, all the way to glorification and that NOTHING in all of creation can take it away, which includes you.

That eliminates works of maintenance. Period. You cannot harmonize works and faith since their meaning are mutually exclusive.

Paul states by grace though repentance, NO works. Stated. No way to harmonize that with what you are saying.

Your passage in Revelation has nothing to do with saints. it is about those in the Second Resurrection, the damned.

You cannot harmonize the verse and passage. Impossible. So, if you want to try explain to me how you can harmonize by grace, not of works, lest any man should boast, with your thinking? How?

[kay-gee]

I think where you are getting mixed up is between works (as in works of the law) and Being Obedient to the law of Christ. Judaism is a religion of law. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is why James ties FAITH and works, not LAW and works. We are expected to OBEY CHRIST. Failure to do so means we are not in Him. (John 14:15)

Hope this makes my position more clear

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I think where you are getting mixed up is between works (as in works of the law) and Being Obedient to the law of Christ. Judaism is a religion of law. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is why James ties FAITH and works, not LAW and works. We are expected to OBEY CHRIST. Failure to do so means we are not in Him. (John 14:15)

Hope this makes my position more clear

all the best...
Your position is wrong. Law is law and every human that has existed has been under law. You didn't hear me ever say Mosaic Law or Covenant. Law is more complex than that. Adam and Eve had Law that every human is born with, in example.

James never says works give salvation, ever. He is says works result from salvation which comes from faith.

Paul says salvation removes us from being subject to the law for the purposes of condemnation, not obligation to obedience to God.

You most assuredly said people can lose salvation by lack of obedience and I laid it out very clearly no one can lose salvation. A born-again believer's Eternal Security is very clearly spelled out in Romans 8. Works having ZERO involvement in GIVING salvation is very clearly spelled out in the verses I posted.

Love causes freewill seeking of God. The Holy Spirit guides us to God, as the Bible says no one can find him purely on his own. The Holy Spirit indwells our spirits and changes us, purifying our spirits, never to leave. God predestines it, no works required.

But the changes cause us to work.

Faith gives the grace that saves which result in good works. You are already saved before you do a single work of faith.

Endure to the end does not mean work to the end or lose salvation. As the Bible says endurance preserves the rewards of work.

It also says every work a saint may do might be wrong works, but even with total loss of all works they are still saved.

You can contribute nothing to your salvation, KG. Nothing. True works are out of desire and love. Works to get are false works and earn nothing.

[kay-gee]

He who endures to the end shall be saved. I think that means SAVED not rewards. (Matt 10:22)

At any rate...I wish I could believe you on this. Believe you me..it would sure un-complicate my life a ton.

As a free will entity, why can one not leave Christ the same as one comes to Christ?
No free will= an automaton (Robot)

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

He who endures to the end shall be saved. I think that means SAVED not rewards. (Matt 10:22)

At any rate...I wish I could believe you on this. Believe you me..it would sure un-complicate my life a ton.

As a free will entity, why can one not leave Christ the same as one comes to Christ?
No free will= an automaton (Robot)

all the best...
KG, you cannot put your meaning on this that defies the other verses. You are explicitly told you cannot earn salvation.

It means those who have faith WILL endure. And it says endure, not work. So you cannot toss works in here either.

I never said there was no freewill. I said those born-again WILL NOT leave because they have the minds of Christ, which would never leave God.

[kay-gee]

Great. but to endure, means to stay with. If one makes a concsience decision to turn from Christ back to a life of sin, how can one expect to have Gods promises over him, regardless of how FREELY salvation is given.

Because something is free, you can't disregard it or abandon it?

Hmmm

all the best...

[InTheWind]

I`ve always seen in discussions about this that the misunderstanding between what back sliding and never saved to begin with is .
A truely saved person will be convicted of their sin and return, only appearing that they lost their salvation. The person that wasn`t realy saved will look as if they are a saved person that fell away by free will but they never were saved to begin with.
That`s my thought anyway.

[CoreIssue]

Great. but to endure, means to stay with. If one makes a concsience decision to turn from Christ back to a life of sin, how can one expect to have Gods promises over him, regardless of how FREELY salvation is given.

Because something is free, you can't disregard it or abandon it?

Hmmm

all the best...
You are arguing from your personal logic and thinking, not the Bible. Per the Bible no one has ever made a decision to turn back.

You refuse to accept Romans 8. So you really do not believe the Bible is true.

Yes, you can refuse to accept a gift, as the majority will refuse to accept Christ. No one is ever forced to repent.

But once you repent you are changed for eternity. You will NOT go back.

And what dictionary are you using? Endure does not mean stay with, it means to survive something, as with us the world:
Strong's Number: 430 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=430&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin ajnevcwmiddle voice from (303 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=303&version=kjv)) and (2192 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=kjv)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=430&version=kjv#Legend) Entry Anechomai1:359,* Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech an-ekh'-om-ahee Verb Definition

to hold up
to hold one's self erect and firm
to sustain, to bear, to endure



en⋅dure

 http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/E01/E0184000) /ɛnˈdʊər, -ˈdyʊər/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html) Show Spelled Pronunciation [en-doohttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngr, -dyoohttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngr] http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html) Show IPA verb, -dured, -dur⋅ing. –verb (used with object) 1. to hold out against; sustain without impairment or yielding; undergo: to endure great financial pressures with equanimity. 2. to bear without resistance or with patience; tolerate: I cannot endure your insults any longer. 3. to admit of; allow; bear: His poetry is such that it will not endure a superficial reading.
–verb (used without object) 4. to continue to exist; last: These words will endure as long as people live who love freedom. 5. to support adverse force or influence of any kind; suffer without yielding; suffer patiently: Even in the darkest ages humanity has endured. 6. to have or gain continued or lasting acknowledgment or recognition, as of worth, merit or greatness: His plays have endured for more than three centuries.
Absolutely nothing in the verses on enduring that says a single word about staying saved or working for salvation.

Other verses say work to the end for the sake of our rewards. Salvation is not a reward.

Romans 8 tells you that you will not leave Christ or your salvation.

You have nothing in the Bible to back your position you can loose your salvation. Nothing.

[CoreIssue]

I`ve always seen in discussions about this that the misunderstanding between what back sliding and never saved to begin with is .
A truely saved person will be convicted of their sin and return, only appearing that they lost their salvation. The person that wasn`t realy saved will look as if they are a saved person that fell away by free will but they never were saved to begin with.
That`s my thought anyway.
And absolutely fact and Biblical.

[roman8]

Great. but to endure, means to stay with. If one makes a concsience decision to turn from Christ back to a life of sin, how can one expect to have Gods promises over him, regardless of how FREELY salvation is given.

Because something is free, you can't disregard it or abandon it?

Hmmm

all the best...

I fell back into sin kay-gee, does that mean that I was never saved or lost my salvation?

I will tell you the difference that I have noticed , before I would have been able to continue in sin with relative comfort , not possible anymore , there is a huge battle when I sin now.

[roman8]

Great. but to endure, means to stay with. If one makes a concsience decision to turn from Christ back to a life of sin, how can one expect to have Gods promises over him, regardless of how FREELY salvation is given.

Because something is free, you can't disregard it or abandon it?

Hmmm

all the best...

I fell back into sin kay-gee, does that mean that I was never saved or lost my salvation?

I will tell you the difference that I have noticed , before I would have been able to continue in sin with relative comfort , not possible anymore , there is a huge battle when I sin now.

But.. having said that there are alot of troubling verses that scare me, because my sin was deliberate and willfull, I felt so secure in my salvation that I believed that it didnt matter what I did, I would still make it to heaven. Big mistake to play with the grace of God. I still hold on to the hope though that God will keep his promise , but there is a part of me that feels I blew it. But I know that I havent , but I am sure my rewards have been knocked down a few pegs and those rewards are eternal so in a way I did blow it , but still saved from the wrath of God

I would like to start a thread troubling verses, I have limited time to respond, so I will post just a few at a time

[kay-gee]

Great. but to endure, means to stay with. If one makes a concsience decision to turn from Christ back to a life of sin, how can one expect to have Gods promises over him, regardless of how FREELY salvation is given.

Because something is free, you can't disregard it or abandon it?

Hmmm

all the best...

I fell back into sin kay-gee, does that mean that I was never saved or lost my salvation?

I will tell you the difference that I have noticed , before I would have been able to continue in sin with relative comfort , not possible anymore , there is a huge battle when I sin now.

But.. having said that there are alot of troubling verses that scare me, because my sin was deliberate and willfull, I felt so secure in my salvation that I believed that it didnt matter what I did, I would still make it to heaven. Big mistake to play with the grace of God. I still hold on to the hope though that God will keep his promise , but there is a part of me that feels I blew it. But I know that I havent , but I am sure my rewards have been knocked down a few pegs and those rewards are eternal so in a way I did blow it , but still saved from the wrath of God

I would like to start a thread troubling verses, I have limited time to respond, so I will post just a few at a time

I have trouble with the idea that when some returns to a life of wilful sin, that they were never saved. More accurate that they have fallen from grace.

Why would Paul tell the Corinthian church to EXPELL the immoral brother?
If they are a brother then that are a saved person...No?

Jesus warned an entire church tat He was going to take away their lampstand. Also spit them out. He's talking to a church of His, not a bunch of outsiders.

Aninias and Sapphira were BELIEVERS who lied to the Holy Spirit and were struck dead!

And that is not to mention (2Peter 2:21,22) (Heb 10:29)

No, I just can't go with the OSAS doctrine. As I said before I wish I could. It would be a comfort zone for me. The bible just doesn't support it for me.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

I have many people i would call a brother but don`t know if they`er all saved or not. Besides how would Paul know their hearts and if they were truely saved. Only God knows ones heart.

[roman8]

Great. but to endure, means to stay with. If one makes a concsience decision to turn from Christ back to a life of sin, how can one expect to have Gods promises over him, regardless of how FREELY salvation is given.

Because something is free, you can't disregard it or abandon it?

Hmmm

all the best...

I fell back into sin kay-gee, does that mean that I was never saved or lost my salvation?

I will tell you the difference that I have noticed , before I would have been able to continue in sin with relative comfort , not possible anymore , there is a huge battle when I sin now.

But.. having said that there are alot of troubling verses that scare me, because my sin was deliberate and willfull, I felt so secure in my salvation that I believed that it didnt matter what I did, I would still make it to heaven. Big mistake to play with the grace of God. I still hold on to the hope though that God will keep his promise , but there is a part of me that feels I blew it. But I know that I havent , but I am sure my rewards have been knocked down a few pegs and those rewards are eternal so in a way I did blow it , but still saved from the wrath of God

I would like to start a thread troubling verses, I have limited time to respond, so I will post just a few at a time

I have trouble with the idea that when some returns to a life of wilful sin, that they were never saved. More accurate that they have fallen from grace.

Why would Paul tell the Corinthian church to EXPELL the immoral brother?
If they are a brother then that are a saved person...No?

Jesus warned an entire church tat He was going to take away their lampstand. Also spit them out. He's talking to a church of His, not a bunch of outsiders.

Aninias and Sapphira were BELIEVERS who lied to the Holy Spirit and were struck dead!

And that is not to mention (2Peter 2:21,22) (Heb 10:29)

No, I just can't go with the OSAS doctrine. As I said before I wish I could. It would be a comfort zone for me. The bible just doesn't support it for me.

all the best...

The immoral brother was saved, they were told to give him over to Satan so that the flesh would be destroyed but the spirit would be saved, also later after he repented, they were told to bring him back into fellowship with them .

I couldent go with anything but OSAS because the bible speaks of it , and I would be without hope . but I guess you will have alot to boast about when you get to heaven kay-gee,

also in Hebrews Paul is tlaking to the Jews and converted Jews who were still relying on there animal sacrifices for attonment for there sin . Has nothing to do with saved christians.

[kay-gee]

Hi Roman8. You say it is addressing Jews and animal sacrifices. Go back to verse 26. If we sin willfully after RECIEVING knowledge of the truth. What would that knowledge of the truth be?

There was a case in Corinth and Paul addressed it to be sure. Verse 13 (chap 5) is a warning to all of us. the wicked person it to be removed from the fellowship. No fellowship with the body=no fellowship with Christ.

Roman8...I will have absolutely nothing to boast of. I have fallen from grace in the past...and it will always be a badge of shame for me.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I have trouble with the idea that when some returns to a life of wilful sin, that they were never saved. More accurate that they have fallen from grace.
Based on what? Your opinion? Sure not on what the Bible teaches.

Again you totally fail to address such as Romans, where it says no one departs from their salvation.

God tells us he will work to purify us. NO ONE just ceases to sin, no one.

Willful sin includes everything, not just the big ones. So where is the line where, in your thinking, where one falls from grace?

Really, KG, you are commanded to study the word of God, which includes prophecy. Have you fallen from grace by willfully not studying it?
Why would Paul tell the Corinthian church to EXPELL the immoral brother?
If they are a brother then that are a saved person...No?
And yet again a failure to state the complete case! Expel so that what can occur? His body destroyed and his spirit preserved in God.

The guy was into really bad sin. But it makes it clear his spirit remained with God.
Jesus warned an entire church tat He was going to take away their lampstand. Also spit them out. He's talking to a church of His, not a bunch of outsiders.

And yet again you fail to state the full case. It states quite clearly they had not repented and were not saved. They were lukewarm, his name on their lips but not in their heart. They were a church in name only, as many are today.

You just keep disregarding the verses that state law condemns but the saved are dead to the law, not under it. You cannot be condemned by what you are not subject to.

And disregard the verses that tell you salvation is a gift. You keep trying to earn it.
Aninias and Sapphira were BELIEVERS who lied to the Holy Spirit and were struck dead!
But it never says they lost their salvation. Stop adding what is not said.
And that is not to mention (2Peter 2:21,22) (Heb 10:29)
Which you are spinning to mean what is not said.
No, I just can't go with the OSAS doctrine.
Thus your refusal to deal with such as Romans 8 where Eternal Security is plainly and literally spelled out. NOTHING can take your salvation away. ALL who love God will be changed and will be glorified.
As I said before I wish I could. It would be a comfort zone for me. The bible just doesn't support it for me.
Because you refuse to accept what the Bible says, regardless of you claims otherwise. You try to escape by not reading literally.

[CTZonEdit]

Its always baffling to me how believers can reject the truth of OSAS.

They try to cling on to a god that allows them to lose their salvation? Why?

You cannot believe in Christ and then just stop believing and walk away. You are either in or out. And when you are in you are in forever.

These are the same types that believe we have to endure the wrath of God in the tribulation. Why?

God has been always from the beginning about faith, grace and mercy. Not about suffering and works, endurance, pain and doubt.

God is eternal. His gift is what? Eternal life. When you accept you freely commit to an eternal being for eternity. You as a mere human being do not have the power or will to toss away an eternal bond you make with an eternal God. That bond is eternal. If anything could take that away from you then God is unreliable, unfaithful, unjust. So you see you don't even get to take it away from yourself after you accept. The bible says its impossible. You can try to turn and be the most vile person you can think of but God will not allow you or sin to ever remove the gifted bond of salvation you accepted.

Why? Because it would mean the death of Christ is meaningless. If you could throw away your salvation then Christ's death is completely unnecessary, meaningless, and pointless.

It is the one thing that should give you peace and yet you have corrupted it based on your flawed studies and emotions that poorly interpret them.

[kay-gee]

Based on what? Your opinion? Sure not on what the Bible teaches.




Willful sin includes everything, not just the big ones. So where is the line where, in your thinking, where one falls from grace?


Galations 5:4

all the best..

[InTheWind]

I really don`t understand that way of thinking Kay-Gee, are you saved now or do ya have to do more to reach that point.
What if you answer no and you die today then it`s eternity in Hell.
How can you do anything to deserve salvation, God says we`re filth in His eyes and if not for the shed blood we would perish.
Like others said what sin pulls ya from Gods grace, any bad thought is a sin. I have news for you you`ll sin right up until the day you die so you better hope the price has been paid for your sins.
It`s done, paid in full, washed clean in Gods eyes, but that does not mean we can freely sin. Born again, saved, so simple a baby could do it and the bible says so.
Give yourself a break and accept it, do the good works that come from being saved not trying to earn being saved.

[CoreIssue]

Based on what? Your opinion? Sure not on what the Bible teaches.


Willful sin includes everything, not just the big ones. So where is the line where, in your thinking, where one falls from grace?
Galations 5:4

all the best..
And again you do not read full context. Never says they lose their salvation. I says:
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gal%205&version=31#fen-NIV-29160a)];
Says they are free to sin but should not. That means they are still saved and eternally secure since they are not subject to law. If subject to losing their salvation they would not be free to sin.

But they most assuredly are destroying their sanctification and spiritually destroying all the unsaved that will listen to them in the future.

They are letting their flesh and old nature rule their minds. Spirits are still pure, but sealed away from being in control.

[kay-gee]

Shouldn't there be a dedicated thread for this topic.

all the best...

[Willy]

I really don`t understand that way of thinking Kay-Gee, are you saved now or do ya have to do more to reach that point.
What if you answer no and you die today then it`s eternity in Hell.
How can you do anything to deserve salvation, God says we`re filth in His eyes and if not for the shed blood we would perish.
Like others said what sin pulls ya from Gods grace, any bad thought is a sin. I have news for you you`ll sin right up until the day you die so you better hope the price has been paid for your sins.
It`s done, paid in full, washed clean in Gods eyes, but that does not mean we can freely sin. Born again, saved, so simple a baby could do it and the bible says so.
Give yourself a break and accept it, do the good works that come from being saved not trying to earn being saved.

... well said ... and 100% correct. :nod:

... the gift (priceless) has to be received.

[roman8]

Salvation is a free gift , no longer a gift if you have to pay for it . If you try to pay for it does it not insult the giver?

We are justified by faith , sealed the moment we believe , after that we can make the choice to be further sanctified, and be usefull .

[InTheWind]

after that we can make the choice to be further sanctified, and be usefull .

Yepper. :nod:

[kay-gee]

dangerous doctrine. It gives zero incentive to anyone to correct a sinful lifestyle. Oh well I'm saved. I might as well be a fornicator and drunkard too! (things I know I could be really good at!)

How anyone could beieve in OSAS is beyond me.

see CTZ edit...I can easily turn the question around

You guys shock the pants off me. OSAS is just about one of the most LIBERAL doctrines to come down the pipe.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Salvation is a free gift , no longer a gift if you have to pay for it . If you try to pay for it does it not insult the giver?

We are justified by faith , sealed the moment we believe , after that we can make the choice to be further sanctified, and be usefull .

Hi Roman8...I guess if it helps to soothe the conscience, run with it.

I just can't find the Biblical evidence for it.

I understand the principles of getting saved. Grace. Gift and all that.

OSAS is a different thing. It claims that one cannot of their own volition, leave Christ.

Study the parable of the Sower.

all the best...

[InTheWind]

You just don`t get it Bud, if your truely saved you become a new person in Christ and you don`t want to sin.
The HS convicts you and you try and change and not sin, that`s the part those that believe like you miss.
If you think you can go sin and it doesn`t bother you then your not saved.

[CoreIssue]

KG, you are doing it again and it is getting old. You constantly dodge these passages and try to force others to say what they do not.

The sower is NOT about those who are saved with some loosing it. It is about the word being spread and how some deal with it. Some do not sprout, some have false starts and some actually take and grow.

Now, I want you to deal with this passage. Stop the dodging. What does this say?
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28138l)] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28140m)] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How do you explain it stating the highlighted point in your thinking?

Predestined and will, not might. Nothing in all of creation, nothing.

You cannot add to the passage that changes the meanings. You cannot drag in other verses that change the meaning, especially when what you have tried to bring in say something else to begin with.

Why do you have such distrust and rejection of what the Bible says?

You constantly rewrite, redefine and just avoid to only claim and see what you want to see. You never actually deal with challenge, just claim you don't believe it and spin.

As ITW says, why and what gives with that?
dangerous doctrine. It gives zero incentive to anyone to correct a sinful lifestyle. Oh well I'm saved. I might as well be a fornicator and drunkard too! (things I know I could be really good at!)

How anyone could beieve in OSAS is beyond me.

see CTZ edit...I can easily turn the question around

You guys shock the pants off me. OSAS is just about one of the most LIBERAL doctrines to come down the pipe.

all the best...
What a total lack of understanding what being born-again does to a person. Total lack of what grace means. Total lack in the power of God and putting trust in salvation in yourself, not Christ.

Nothing liberal about it. It is Biblical. Your thinking was condemned by Paul.

We believe in it and study the Bible and are literal. You do not and do not study and the Bible and are non liberal.

YOU trust YOU. WE trust CHRIST.

We post the Bible to you with correct literal grammar and word meaning. You post you to us with your shopping cart approach and, incredibly bad grammar and invented word meanings.

I deal with the verses you post to me. You don't deal with the verses I post to you. Right there says it all.

[CTZonEdit]

dangerous doctrine. It gives zero incentive to anyone to correct a sinful lifestyle. Oh well I'm saved. I might as well be a fornicator and drunkard too! (things I know I could be really good at!)

And some people are that way, but they are still saved. That is the grace of the gift of God.

In your own ability you cannot correct your sins KG. You do not have the ability to work your way out of sin. It is only by His grace, and mercy and the faith we have in God.

We can do nothing. Nothing. Anything else you are claiming is works.

Just how much would I have to work to RE-gain the salvation I lost? Twice as much? Hundred times as much?

You see you have turned it from faith into works.

How anyone could beieve in OSAS is beyond me. Then your are not studying enough or properly enough.

see CTZ edit...I can easily turn the question aroundBut you have no biblical backing to support you. Only what you feel is right.

We are God's children. You honestly think that once you place your faith in the Father he can then decide to toss you aside because of a sin you commit? What kind of love is that KG? And again it means that Christ didn't die for you once and for all. Putting faith in Him is meaningless because you have the ability to ruin the eternal gift God gave you, and Christ has to die again, and again depending on how many times you decide to repent and come back and repent and come back.

Its once for all believers KG. Done, sealed and delivered.

You guys shock the pants off me. OSAS is just about one of the most LIBERAL doctrines to come down the pipe.

all the best...Its biblical.

[roman8]

Salvation is a free gift , no longer a gift if you have to pay for it . If you try to pay for it does it not insult the giver?

We are justified by faith , sealed the moment we believe , after that we can make the choice to be further sanctified, and be usefull .

Hi Roman8...I guess if it helps to soothe the conscience, run with it.

I just can't find the Biblical evidence for it.

I understand the principles of getting saved. Grace. Gift and all that.

OSAS is a different thing. It claims that one cannot of their own volition, leave Christ.

Study the parable of the Sower.

all the best...

If Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth , then he died for past , present and future sins, or do we somehow surprise him when we sin.
The wages of sin is death, same punishment for all sins, so every time we even so much as have thought about sinning we have blown it again. So we would not be free , but still under the law.

KG please dont think I am trying to ease my own conscience, my conscience will be marked by this for the rest of my life. It has made me realize once again how much I need him, and when fellowship is broken with the Lord it is devastating. I will never be the same. So I am not running with OSAS because of that, I believe it because it is the truth and I thank the Lord for that. We would all blow it otherwise.

[roman8]

[QUOTE=kay-gee;36685]dangerous doctrine. It gives zero incentive to anyone to correct a sinful lifestyle. Oh well I'm saved. I might as well be a fornicator and drunkard too! (things I know I could be really good at!)





[QUOTE]


It is dangerous when we fall , not only is there temporary broken fellowship there is punishment, here and in the age to come , but not condemnation. We will not all have the same postion in the MK, or in the age to come ( new earth). Those rewards are eternal.

[kay-gee]

Ok guys. What's up? I'm removed from a thread? Why?

Someone posts a bunch of text on a thread, with no indication of the publication or the author, I'm supposed to just accept that as truth, and go Wow!? There's all kinds of writings in the world claiming all sorts of things.

I want to start a thread entitled "prophecy buffs thread" if it is OK. Let's get all this stuff in one place so that it can be examined.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Ok guys. What's up? I'm removed from a thread? Why?

Someone posts a bunch of text on a thread, with no indication of the publication or the author, I'm supposed to just accept that as truth, and go Wow!? There's all kinds of writings in the world claiming all sorts of things.

I want to start a thread entitled "prophecy buffs thread" if it is OK. Let's get all this stuff in one place so that it can be examined.

all the best...
Because you yet again made a joke of those who take prophecy seriously and you refuse to answer verses on any subject that you use just your personal opinion to reject. You make declarations when others are actually debating or discussing factually an offer no evidence.

I banned you from one thread and someone else banned you from another.. And no, no more jumping to other topics until you start answering some long owed answers to questions. The thread's title alone shows it will be nothing more than more of your personal opinions and refusals to answer direct questions.

Start with the thread where you were repeated asked to deal with the statements in Romans 8 about Eternal Security. I answered every verse you tried to use to deny it, but you have never explained how you can just disregard the verses I posted nor explained what they say and mean.

That has to end. Truly, it is insulting to dismiss or intrude in discussions with obvious disdain for what others are saying with facts to back you.

You admit you don't study but feel justified in making firm declarations about what the truth is. Does not fly. Has to change.

[kay-gee]

I'm Sorry

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I'm Sorry

all the best...
OK. I will take you at your word.

Please, go deal with Romans 8. I am totally baffled by your thinking.

[kay-gee]

What is it you want to know about Romans 8 exactly? I accept it as written.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

What is it you want to know about Romans 8 exactly? I accept it as written.

all the best...
I want you to go there and explain how you can read those passages and not see Eternal Security in it as stated. How nothing can means something can and will means might, in example.

[kay-gee]

Brothers, Sisters, People...I think we all have to lighten up a little bit. We all just take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes. You are playing right into the stereo-type that Christians are dour humourless people. I know of no scripture that says you have to check your personality at the door when you become a Christian. It would have been an insult if I had only been posting here for a week and said that, but i've been here for years. You guys know me by now. I constantly hear about political correctness and that, yet Christians have the thinnest skins around when it comes to sarcasm or kidding. Let's all try and get with the program here.
I thought we were family. If we wer fellowshipping around a table and I teased one of you saying...where you read that, in the National Enquierer? Would you all get up and like punch me out?!! Yeeesh!
Take it easy...


all the best...

[kay-gee]

Romans 8:37-39

Easy to understand. What can separate us from Gods Love?

Can death?...no. absent from the body, present with The Lord

Can Life?......no

angels?...no...we can avoid even an angel teaching falsely

principalities?...People have lived successful Christian lives even under the worst governments

things present?...no

things coming?....no

height nor depth?...spacial dimensions...hardly could separate you

nor any other created thing...no (let's see...a mountain, an ocean, a tree an animal...no don't think so)

no problem...but I fail to see your position in there.


I don't believe that there is anything under the sun or the moon or the stars or under the clouds, under the sea, under a rock etc...etc...that can make you be a wife abusing drunk. You can be one though. All it takes is YOU.

I believe the passage as it reads, and the bonus is, I don't have to deal with all contradictions forced by the others scriptures. If this passage is the key to OSAS, then the onus is on you to explain all the other scriptures...(Gal 5:4) (John15:2) (Mark4:17) (Mark 4:19) (1Tim 5:8) (2Tim 2:11-13) (Heb 10:26:31) (James 1:12) (James 1:22) (2Peter 2:20-22) (Jude 21). A few, there are more but they will keep a guy going for a while.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Brothers, Sisters, People...I think we all have to lighten up a little bit. We all just take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes. You are playing right into the stereo-type that Christians are dour humourless people. I know of no scripture that says you have to check your personality at the door when you become a Christian. It would have been an insult if I had only been posting here for a week and said that, but i've been here for years. You guys know me by now. I constantly hear about political correctness and that, yet Christians have the thinnest skins around when it comes to sarcasm or kidding. Let's all try and get with the program here.
I thought we were family. If we wer fellowshipping around a table and I teased one of you saying...where you read that, in the National Enquierer? Would you all get up and like punch me out?!! Yeeesh!
Take it easy...


all the best...
Lame excuse that does not justify your telling us how wrong we are and how right you are without any facts or evidence. And again stating WE are at fault and you are innocent.

[CoreIssue]

Romans 8:37-39

Easy to understand. What can separate us from Gods Love?

Can death?...no. absent from the body, present with The Lord

Can Life?......no

angels?...no...we can avoid even an angel teaching falsely

principalities?...People have lived successful Christian lives even under the worst governments

things present?...no

things coming?....no

height nor depth?...spacial dimensions...hardly could separate you

nor any other created thing...no (let's see...a mountain, an ocean, a tree an animal...no don't think so)
If nothing can then you are eternally secure by your own statements. Yet you still embrace the contradiction you can which you cannot justify.
no problem...but I fail to see your position in there.
Yes, problem. You are practicing Double Think. You state one thing as reality then practice something else. Either Eternal Security is true, which the verses say it is, or it is false, meaning they lie. Which is it you have not answered, as in how can it be true and yet you can still stop loving God?
I don't believe that there is anything under the sun or the moon or the stars or under the clouds, under the sea, under a rock etc...etc...that can make you be a wife abusing drunk. You can be one though. All it takes is YOU.
And here you go declaring the the verses a lie. It says NOTHING in all of creation can remove you, which includes you. You are INVENTING an exception not allowed by the verses.

It says those who love WILL, not MIGHT. Your position demands MIGHT, not WILL.

You are violating context and grammar here. Period.
I believe the passage as it reads, and the bonus is, I don't have to deal with all contradictions forced by the others scriptures.
There are no contradictions.
If this passage is the key to OSAS, then the onus is on you to explain all the other scriptures...
Not only here. Paul says dead to the Law and only Law condemns. If render that statement a lie but putting people back under the Law, which he condemned Jews for trying to do.

Says by Grace, period. You add works to be saved, just as those Jews did.
(Gal 5:4)
Already dealt with that one twice. You keep inserting meaning and statements not there just as you have done to Romans 8.
(John15:2)Says nothing about salvation being lost. Addressed to the Jews who were part of Israel and taking the fruit of the blessings on Israel but not the intent. Same as with individuals claiming to be Christians in saying many are near to Christ with their tongues but far from him in their heats. Or those who tried to work their way to salvation who in the Judgement were told they were NEVER his. Not were and left, but never. (Mark4:17)
Never saved. Never developed roots. Near in tongue but far in heart.
(Mark 4:19)
Those that stand before him pleading their works for their salvation. He tells them they were NEVER his. Not were and left.
(1Tim 5:8)
States never were a believer in the verse.
(2Tim 2:11-13)
Faith leads to salvation. It is not salvation until there is repentant.

I know a number of people who have stated they have faith Christ is there, is God and is what he says he is. But they will never submit and repent because they are their own persons.
(Heb 10:26:31)
Say received knowledge and rejected it. They didn't repent, they only knew. Stated right there in the passage.
(James 1:12)
Crown of Life is a reward for those who suffer for Christ. It isn't salvation.
(James 1:22)
Just listening to the Word saves no one. You have to act by repenting. Knowledge does not equal salvation. Many know and reject Christ.
(2Peter 2:20-22)
No argument. Prophecy means more than future events in the Hebrew and Greek. It also means revealing immediate things, as it was prophecy that revealed the wording of the Bible to the writers.
(Jude 21).
Absolutely. God says he will chastise his own who stray. But they remain his.

Prodigal son is an example. He strayed but never ceased to be his. Christ is the good Shepard who will go after the lost sheep and bring them back.
A few, there are more but they will keep a guy going for a while.
Not really.

Again you change word meaning, do not know what you are reading because you have not studied, add words and phrases to verse and fail to read grammatically.

Romans 8, all the verses on dead to the law and grace alone, no works and what you posted are in harmony. I don't need to play with any of them to make them work together. But you most assuredly do.

You still have not justified your position as being anything more than personal opinion.

WILL does not mean MIGHT. NOTHING does not mean with exception of YOU. GRACE does not mean EARNED. NEVER SAVED does not mean SAVED THEN LEFT.

Satan and the Fallen Angels were never saved to leave. They were created in a state of being holy. Their freewill choice was to leave. Our freewill choice is to repent.

[kay-gee]

Brothers, Sisters, People...I think we all have to lighten up a little bit. We all just take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes. You are playing right into the stereo-type that Christians are dour humourless people. I know of no scripture that says you have to check your personality at the door when you become a Christian. It would have been an insult if I had only been posting here for a week and said that, but i've been here for years. You guys know me by now. I constantly hear about political correctness and that, yet Christians have the thinnest skins around when it comes to sarcasm or kidding. Let's all try and get with the program here.
I thought we were family. If we wer fellowshipping around a table and I teased one of you saying...where you read that, in the National Enquierer? Would you all get up and like punch me out?!! Yeeesh!
Take it easy...


all the best...
Lame excuse that does not justify your telling us how wrong we are and how right you are without any facts or evidence. And again stating WE are at fault and you are innocent.

So you are saying there is not an ounce of validity to anything I said in this post?
hmmm

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Brothers, Sisters, People...I think we all have to lighten up a little bit. We all just take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes. You are playing right into the stereo-type that Christians are dour humourless people. I know of no scripture that says you have to check your personality at the door when you become a Christian. It would have been an insult if I had only been posting here for a week and said that, but i've been here for years. You guys know me by now. I constantly hear about political correctness and that, yet Christians have the thinnest skins around when it comes to sarcasm or kidding. Let's all try and get with the program here.
I thought we were family. If we wer fellowshipping around a table and I teased one of you saying...where you read that, in the National Enquierer? Would you all get up and like punch me out?!! Yeeesh!
Take it easy...


all the best...
Lame excuse that does not justify your telling us how wrong we are and how right you are without any facts or evidence. And again stating WE are at fault and you are innocent.

So you are saying there is not an ounce of validity to anything I said in this post?
hmmm

all the best...
I am saying you have declared yourself totally innocent of any problems and pointed your finger at us yet again.

[kay-gee]

Not seeing the connection with Romans chapter 8 and some news article about a cornerstone in Jerusalem. By the way, I have yet to substantiate by regular news outlets including Jerusalem. I've been surfing and not getting anything. Please help if you can. How about some links to places that can ascertain this. One would think that an item of this staure, The Jewish population of the world would be shouting on the roof tops! Puzzled.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Not seeing the connection with Romans chapter 8 and some news article about a cornerstone in Jerusalem.
It was part of the issue that you do not read literally by context but by your personal opinion.

This one is so clear cut it is ideal to illustrate the point, but you continue to walk away from what the Bible states and go with your personal feeling and declaring them what the Bible says.

You REFUSE to deal with what verses and passages state and yet demand you got it right per your personal opinion.

Just cannot let that pattern go on. Deal with what Romans 8 says line by line. Not jumping somewhere else to do it yet again there and then try to use that to redefine Romans 8. And use actual word meanings, not what you want them to mean.
By the way, I have yet to substantiate by regular news outlets including Jerusalem. I've been surfing and not getting anything. Please help if you can. How about some links to places that can ascertain this. One would think that an item of this staure, The Jewish population of the world would be shouting on the roof tops! Puzzled.

all the best...
Will do after we deal with Romans 8. You are trying to divert from answering. And moving the issue here to escape the thread ban isn't allowed. You are banned from that topic for the time being.

[kay-gee]

I dealt with it line by line in post 317. I have nothing else to add. I will never be OSAS. Not even on my radar screen. I seriously doubt you will ever accept that man plays some role in salvation so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.
Now why can't I learn about the temple stone?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

I dealt with it line by line in post 317. I have nothing else to add. I will never be OSAS. Not even on my radar screen. I seriously doubt you will ever accept that man plays some role in salvation so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.
Now why can't I learn about the temple stone?

all the best...
Nope, you didn't. You added to the passage and came out with nothing but you can do so. Not in the passage and defies the statements.

Nothing in all of creation, not nothing in all of creation but oneself. You added a qualifier not in the passage. Period. Show me where that exception is stated in Romans 8, because it is NOT there.

Bible says no works, pure grace. You add works.

Nope, KG, you have yet to show me your exclusion in the passage.

Believe what you will, but just tossing out your opinions in topic after topic without posting anything but "I believe" isn't proof or an answer to people asking you where you got your statement from.

In semantics, logic, debate, court and such personal opinion is not allowed as proof claims. Ever.

If you cannot see that, your problem. But when the Bible says nothing in all of creation and no more you cannot get nothing in all of creation but you out of it. When it says Israel in a prophecy it does not mean Church, it means Israel. When it lists out the events of Revelation it does not mean non literal things that happened in the past, a claim that you cannot justify nor show anywhere in the Bible that defines those events as non literal historical.

You cannot invent your own rules of grammar and word meaning. You cannot invent meanings not said.

You don't like Eternal Security? The Bible does not care you cannot understand it or accept it. But it says it is there.

I repeat, nothing does not mean nothing but you. Will does not mean might. Grace does not mean earned. And you just saying you cannot accept it is not a foundation to declare others wrong. Proof, KG, proof. Not opinion.

You may think opinion is okay because there are a lot of different beliefs out there, but it isn't.

Ever notice that almost every varying belief is based on personal opinion and non literal reading by rules of grammar and linguistics? All you see is the differing beliefs, not the reason for the differences, and go with that.

You have to have reasons beyond opinion before you start declaring the beliefs of others false. You have opinions only.

[kay-gee]

Sorry...Can't accept OSAS. I am not trying to tell you that you have a false doctrine.
It's a completely redundant argument. Now that I'm saved, it shouldn't matter what is and what isn't. I'm saved! If Christianity is a do-nothing religion, I'm cool with that. Let's just all do nothing together and enjoy being saved. Part of that should be stop fussing over these supposed doctrines. Now is it true this thing with the temple stone?

all the best...

[kay-gee]

I don't really have to do anything to Romans 8. I speaks on its own behalf. If that is in support of OSAS for you, run with it.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Sorry...Can't accept OSAS. I am not trying to tell you that you have a false doctrine.
Not the point.
It's a completely redundant argument.
Only when you don't see the point.
Now that I'm saved, it shouldn't matter what is and what isn't. I'm saved!
Not saying you are not. But cults say they are saved. Any say they are earning their way to Heaven. Bible says neither group is.

So, it matters quite a lot.
If Christianity is a do-nothing religion, I'm cool with that.
Never said that. In fact I said works come from TRUE salvation.

But what you are saying is a huge reason why it matters what you believe. You have a completely bogus view of what the Bible says on the issue.

I don't work for salvation. I work because it is the right thing to do and it is part of my New Nature. If you do it is of zero value.
Let's just all do nothing together and enjoy being saved.
Ridiculous statement. And the funny thing so many are carrying on in very PC efforts and calling them work for God. It isn't.
Part of that should be stop fussing over these supposed doctrines.
Really? So much for the Biblical commands to study and know and defend SOUND doctrine, not just what one wants to believe.
Now is it true this thing with the temple stone?

all the best...
Yea. Been reported on major news sources.

[CoreIssue]

I don't really have to do anything to Romans 8. I speaks on its own behalf. If that is in support of OSAS for you, run with it.

all the best...
Yes it does. And if a verbal conversation with the author you would be told you were trying to put words into his mouth that he didn't say.

Completely missing the two big points, KG:


You have to go with what is said. You cannot add words not said, which you continually do.
You are fully entitled to have your own opinion. You are not entitled to jump into a debate or conversation based on written facts with your personally opinions saying others are wrong based upon your opinion based on your personal demands.

You keep derailing topic after topic doing that. Has to end. Rules demand answering challenges with proofs, not opinion.

Emotions and wants are not evidence and facts.

Sorry if a lot of the Bible makes you uncomfortable. That does not make it wrong.

[Willy]

Sorry...Can't accept OSAS. I am not trying to tell you that you have a false doctrine.
It's a completely redundant argument. Now that I'm saved, it shouldn't matter what is and what isn't. I'm saved! If Christianity is a do-nothing religion, I'm cool with that. Let's just all do nothing together and enjoy being saved. Part of that should be stop fussing over these supposed doctrines. Now is it true this thing with the temple stone?

all the best...

... what do "you" mean by "saved"?

.

[kay-gee]

Trick question I presume?

all the best...

[InTheWind]

Not a trick question and was going to ask it myself, if you consider yourself saved then what got you to that state?

I don't work for salvation. I work because it is the right thing to do and it is part of my New Nature.

This is what they don`t understand about works, it`s a normal thing the new nature provides not a way to get saved.

[CoreIssue]

Trick question I presume?

all the best...
I agree with ITW.

It means many things to many people, denominations and so on. I have heard some weird definitions that have nothing to do with the Biblical meaning.

Excellent question to which I would add what does born-again mean to you?

As the Bible says, not all who say Lord belong to Christ.

[kay-gee]

Not a trick question and was going to ask it myself, if you consider yourself saved then what got you to that state?

I don't work for salvation. I work because it is the right thing to do and it is part of my New Nature.

This is what they don`t understand about works, it`s a normal thing the new nature provides not a way to get saved.

Agree!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Not a trick question and was going to ask it myself, if you consider yourself saved then what got you to that state?

I don't work for salvation. I work because it is the right thing to do and it is part of my New Nature. This is what they don`t understand about works, it`s a normal thing the new nature provides not a way to get saved.

Agree!

all the best...
No, you don't. You have stated you have to work to stay saved. Even tried to give Biblical proof by spinning the meaning on some verses.

You are trying to have it both ways and you cannot!! Is salvation by grace or do you have to work for it, either to get it or keep it??

[kay-gee]

[QUOTE=InTheWind;36760]Not a trick question and was going to ask it myself, if you consider yourself saved then what got you to that state?

Why does it matter? The point is...I am there!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

[QUOTE=InTheWind;36760]Not a trick question and was going to ask it myself, if you consider yourself saved then what got you to that state?Why does it matter? The point is...I am there!

all the best...
Again you dodge the issues as if they are not important.

Cults and others think they are saved when they are not. Christ said many would stand before him pleading works and he would send them to the Lake because they were never his.

It matters.

[kay-gee]

You sure you don't have that backwards? The people you talking about are not turned away on account of NO FAITH or NO BELIEF. They are turned away because they did NOT DO the will of the Father. Verse 21...right above the one you are using. Remember now...Let's take the whole counsel of God in examinamining an issue!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

You sure you don't have that backwards? The people you talking about are not turned away on account of NO FAITH or NO BELIEF. They are turned away because they did NOT DO the will of the Father. Verse 21...right above the one you are using. Remember now...Let's take the whole counsel of God in examinamining an issue!

all the best...
I do not have it backwards. Satan has faith and belief in God but refuses to kneel to him. Many people have faith and belief but willing go to Hell rather than submit to God.

You again plead works for salvation even here. Not working for God does not mean no faith or belief in God. You thinking is WRONG in that regard.

As the verses I posted several times stated salvation is by faith, NOT of works.

Good works come from faith, not trying to earn salvation. Bible tells you many will work for the wrong reasons and those works are like straw and will be burnt up leaving the person with nothing to show for them but they are still saved without a single work to their credit.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Really blind to say they didn't have faith or believe. They are stating they did it in his name. They never repented and submitted to him even though believed in him and had faith in him.

I have known people that bluntly said they knew the Bible was 100% right, knew God existed, knew Christ was God in the flesh and the only way to Heaven and all the rest. They knew, meaning they had faith and belief it was all true, but refused to submit because they refused to bow to anyone but themselves. Their own words.

You cannot reconcile the Bible and those people with your claim they never believed or had faith. I repeat, even the Fallen Angels and Satan believe and and have faith but refuse to submit.
1 Corinthians 3
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Note it says all build upon Christ, the one foundation, but not all they build will survive. But even if none of the works survive they will survive because of the foundation.

Works are for rewards, not salvation. The salvation in Christ is the foundation.

The death bed confession is instant born-again. You don't have to work, earn or do anything. It is by grace, meaning gift.

You cannot earn a gift because to earn makes it a wage, not a gift.
Romans 4
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%204;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28016b)]
KG, you disregard every verse that repeatedly tells you your works mean NOTHING as regards salvation.

Yes, the whole Counsel of God, which you are not doing.

Salvation, being born-again, is instant and Eternally Secure. You do nothing to earn or keep it. It is gift gained by the grace of God via repentance in faith. You are dead to Law so cannot loose it. Nothing in all of Creation can take it away. Those who love God are predestined to glorification, all of them. I have posted verses on every one of these points and you ignore them.

Works are earned, thus not a gift. Verse posted above.

People and others CAN have faith and belief in God while never belonging to him. Belonging to him requires one to recognize they are lost without him and must repent to gain him. So many have faith and believe but never repent because they will not submit.

You can have faith a pill will cure a fatal disease you have. But, if you do not take it you will still die in spite of your faith.

One has to act on their faith and belief for it to benefit them. That action is true repentance.

Trouble is many have the faith and belief but do not want the benefit. They know but reject.

Until you can understand that you are never going to understand what the Bible is saying because you will always spin the meaning to something else.

An unsaved member of a saved church of family benefits from the blessings of God by association. They does not make them personally saved, so when they walk away they also walk away from the benefits of association.

[kay-gee]

Just saying the same thing as me only differently

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Just saying the same thing as me only differently

all the best...
So you admit you cannot work to earn or keep salvation? That one can enter Heaven with zero works to their credit? That you cannot loose your salvation because no one would ever want to give it up?

Want to be clear here.

[kay-gee]

Well not exactly. I think where we disagree is in definition of work. To obey a direct command of God is not a work. A work is a self initiated action that one does for self righteousness such as a rich guy giving money to charity or something and thinking he is earning Gods favour.
Obedience is different. When God commands...I comply! Period...no ifs but or ands!

As for OSAS...nope. don't agree there. Can't accept it. I have to remain with what Bible teaches on the subject. I don't see anything in Roman 8 that addresses the issue. He who remains in the vine will be saved.

I do agree, somewhat, that salvation is not earnable. I mean really, what could one man do in one lifetime to earn life for eternity?

God never gives anything without an expectation of reciprical obedience.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Well not exactly. I think where we disagree is in definition of work. To obey a direct command of God is not a work. A work is a self initiated action that one does for self righteousness such as a rich guy giving money to charity or something and thinking he is earning Gods favour.
Obedience is different. When God commands...I comply! Period...no ifs but or ands!
Again you invent your own definitions and do not pay attention to usage. The Bible says good works come from salvation and are the basis of judgment for rewards. Good works earn rewards from God. Good works come from serving and obeying God.

And again you contradict yourself. You said one MUST work to retain salvation.

You continue to show why we have issues with much of what you say. You are self contradicting, invent your own meanings and so forth.
Strong's Number: 1754 Browse Lexicon (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1754&version=nas) Original WordWord Origin energeofrom (1756 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1756&version=nas)) Transliterated WordTDNT (http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1754&version=nas#Legend) Entry Energeo2:652,251 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech en-erg-eh'-o Verb Definition

to be operative, be at work, put forth power

to work for one, aid one


to effect
to display one's activity, show one's self operative


I work for God. Paul worked for God.
As for OSAS...nope. don't agree there. Can't accept it. I have to remain with what Bible teaches on the subject. I don't see anything in Roman 8 that addresses the issue. He who remains in the vine will be saved.
Yep, again you cannot take literal statements as fact.

You push freewill staying in the vine, which I agree all will do. But you also push freewill leaving the vine which the Bible never ever says will happen and is clearly stated in Romans 8.
I do agree, somewhat, that salvation is not earnable. I mean really, what could one man do in one lifetime to earn life for eternity?
And yet you have stated one must work to keep salvation. Contradiction.

The Bible says dead to the Law and only Law can condemn, but you say one can leave God and return to being lost, which means one has a second time been condemned by Law that they Bible says one is dead to.
God never gives anything without an expectation of reciprical obedience.
Then it isn't a gift, it has a price tag attached. As the Bible says works nullify grace.

Obedience is a freewill result of salvation, not a demand. It is a sign one is saved, not a work to be saved.

You give yourself a working part in your salvation, a % responsibility and power. The Bible says you have no role, that all you can do is ask, nothing more.

You make salvation a process, not an instant act when the Holy Spirit enters.

And you say the Holy Spirit can be given the boot.

Nope, you don't read literally. In Romans 8 you turn will into might and cannot into can.

So, the issue remains. You make declarations of what you can and cannot accept and claim the Bible says something without being able to prove it does.

Still want you to lay out those areas of Romans 8 and explain what they say word by word to justify your thinking. But you will not because you know you cannot.

Bottom line is until you can and will do such it is your personal opinion and that is not debate or discussion when you jump into other subjects making declarations of your personal opinions as if they are provable fact. Rules do not allow that. It creates chaos when personal opinion is presented as if fact.

Your approach is not taught in classes on logic, semantics, grammar, law or debate. Nor allowed in formal debate of the court room. It has no fact driven basis and is disruptive because how does one debate against emotions and rhetoric?

[InTheWind]

Amazing, people that don`t believe in OSAS are lost, if you think you earned your way to salvation then your not saved. That`s why you confuse seeing someone that backslides and never returns as losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved.
For God sake don`t think or do anything sinful Kay-Gee or your lost again. Then what do you do to earn your way back and what if you died before you got good works done?

[kay-gee]

Again you invent your own definitions and do not pay attention to usage. The Bible says good works come from salvation and are the basis of judgment for rewards. Good works earn rewards from God. Good works come from serving and obeying God.

Great, so you looked up the definition of work. Obedience is not work. It is compliance. Please give an example OT of the great men of God where no compliance to specific commands was required.


You continue to show why we have issues with much of what you say. You are self contradicting, invent your own meanings and so forth.
No invented meanings. Just Plain English



I work for God. Paul worked for God. He sure did




[QUOTE]
You push freewill staying in the vine, which I agree all will do. But you also push freewill leaving the vine which the Bible never ever says will happen and is clearly stated in Romans 8.
And yet you have stated one must work to keep salvation. Contradiction.
Check your book of word meanings again. Check out the word "remain" How does one "remain" in a state he is not already in? The verse says the branches that are in but don't bear fruit are cut off and burned. Can't be speaking of unsaved there. Unsaved never were in the vine. Careful there Core!

all the best...

[kay-gee]

You make salvation a process, not an instant act when the Holy Spirit enters.

That's funny because when you were dismissing the parable of the sower, you said they had no roots. So is it an instant thing or something that comes when roots are down which takes time. Which is it? The verse said they recieved it with great joy, but fell away before roots were put down. In other words saved then lost.

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Amazing, people that don`t believe in OSAS are lost, if you think you earned your way to salvation then your not saved. That`s why you confuse seeing someone that backslides and never returns as losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved.
For God sake don`t think or do anything sinful Kay-Gee or your lost again. Then what do you do to earn your way back and what if you died before you got good works done?

I don't do it quite like that. I simply try to comply with Gods commands. When I screw up and realize it, I repent, ask forgiveness then move on. All things we are taught to do. Or are they works? Somewhere these things get a little hazy.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

KG, already dealt with those other verses and explained where you are wrong.

Now, getting back to Romans 8 which all of you who believe you can loose salvation avoid dealing with like a plague. Where does it say anywhere in the chapter you can loose your salvation? Where? Show me. You cannot because not there.

Tell me where any words here allow you meaning. You cannot.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28138l)] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28140m)] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nope. You have to jump away and avoid the words here because it is impossible to make them say what you want.

You would rather jump elsewhere and claim somewhere else contradicts what is said here and changes the meaning.
No invented meanings. Just Plain English
You need a remedial English and reading course if you think that is accurate.
Quote:
You make salvation a process, not an instant act when the Holy Spirit enters.

That's funny because when you were dismissing the parable of the sower, you said they had no roots. So is it an instant thing or something that comes when roots are down which takes time. Which is it? The verse said they recieved it with great joy, but fell away before roots were put down. In other words saved then lost.
Obviously you are not a farmer or you would know the roots grow first. If they don't grow the plant is dead, never had a chance.

It says they received his WORD with great joy, not salvation. Your reading skills lack, KG. You see what you want regardless of what is actually said.

When a woman become pregnant the baby is an instant reality and then it grows. When a seed is created it has a full fledged plant within it. But unless it has fertile soil, water, etc, it will not grow.

In the parable the seed is the WORD, not the person. The SOIL is the person. If the SOIL is not supportive of the WORD it will never succeed in the SOIL. It will never bear FRUIT. Salvation is the fruit of the WORD.

Again your reading skills are lacking and you avoid the meaning by changing WORD to IT to imply it means SALVATION.

Yep, you need a reading comprehension class.

[CoreIssue]

I don't do it quite like that. I simply try to comply with Gods commands. When I screw up and realize it, I repent, ask forgiveness then move on. All things we are taught to do. Or are they works? Somewhere these things get a little hazy.
Bible tells you Christ died once for all you sins. ALL your sins, past, present and future where forgiven for they were ALL future to his death.

You do not go from sin to saved back to sin and then saved again. One missed sin you don't repent of would put you into the Lake by your thinking.

You keep confusing salvation and sanctification.

DEAD to the Law means you cannot be condemned by it. To return to condemnation means you were not DEAD to the Law, but still under it.

Again, reading comprehension isn't there.

[kay-gee]

Now, getting back to Romans 8 which all of you who believe you can loose salvation avoid dealing with like a plague. Where does it say anywhere in the chapter you can loose your salvation? Where? Show me. You cannot because not there. You are right it is not there. This passage is not even dealing with this issue so of course it is not there. This passage is dealing with The Love of God and our relationship to it. Noting can separate us from Gods love. Understood, but even you yourself talk about how Gods love is a combination of mercy and JUSTICE. If I am going to analyze scriptures, I would prefer to analyze ones tht actually address the issue of falling from grace. The willful forsking of Christ. There are several.


Obviously you are not a farmer or you would know the roots grow first. If they don't grow the plant is dead, never had a chance.
Yeah but why any different than the next example. The roots are down. Everyting is fine then the worries of the world and decieptfulness of riches choke the plant to death.
It says they received his WORD with great joy, not salvation. Your reading skills lack, KG. You see what you want regardless of what is actually [/QUOTE
OOPS can't be Core. It talks of persecution arising. Why would that have anyting to do with unbelievers?


[QUOTE]It will never bear FRUIT. Salvation is the fruit of the WORD.
But you just said salvation is instant. Fruit takes time!


Yep, you need a reading comprehension class
No problem reading or comprehending. I was raised in the Canadian school system. Remember. Highest literacy rating in the world!

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Now, getting back to Romans 8 which all of you who believe you can loose salvation avoid dealing with like a plague. Where does it say anywhere in the chapter you can loose your salvation? Where? Show me. You cannot because not there. You are right it is not there. This passage is not even dealing with this issue so of course it is not there. This passage is dealing with The Love of God and our relationship to it. Noting can separate us from Gods love.
Absurd statement, KG. Totally absurd. Again you Shopping Cart and parse what is said.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.You are saying there are those that love God who are not saved. A totally false statement and premise.

It says those who he foreknew would love him will be glorified. No one is glorified that is not saved. It is inherent to the demands of the conditions of the full statement.
Understood, but even you yourself talk about how Gods love is a combination of mercy and JUSTICE. If I am going to analyze scriptures, I would prefer to analyze ones tht actually address the issue of falling from grace. The willful forsking of Christ. There are several.All the world is under the grace of God, not just the saved. If it was not none would have the opportunity to be saved.

The willful forsaking of Christ is done by the unsaved, never the saved.

There is not a single verse in the Bible talking about a saved person loosing salvation. None.

And again, you cannot dismiss the verses, such as numerous versus in Romans alone telling you that the born-again cannot be lost. That only Law condemns and we are dead to the Law thus free to sin but have a duty not to sin.

No where is there a verse saying a born-again person leaves Christ. None.

Obviously you are not a farmer or you would know the roots grow first. If they don't grow the plant is dead, never had a chance.
Yeah but why any different than the next example. The roots are down. Everyting is fine then the worries of the world and decieptfulness of riches choke the plant to death.You did not read what I said. The seed is the WORD of Christ. The soil is the hearer. The WORD does not root in the soil because the soil cannot grow and support the WORD.

You keep trying to make the seed the person. It is not.

The soil where the seed dies never bears fruit. The fruit is salvation. A farmer plants for the fruit, the harvest, never the plant.

The soil remains, but is barren.
It says they received his WORD with great joy, not salvation. Your reading skills lack, KG. You see what you want regardless of what is actually OOPS can't be Core. It talks of persecution arising. Why would that have anyting to do with unbelievers?To keep them from ever being saved. Keeping one from being saved and silencing those who are saved are the goals of demons, Satan and those who hate God.

Read the Bible. Evil works to keep people from God.
It will never bear FRUIT. Salvation is the fruit of the WORD.
But you just said salvation is instant. Fruit takes time! Yep. Saved means when you repent, not the process of learning to get to the point

Learning is a process. Salvation is instant, growth/sanctification is a process.
Yep, you need a reading comprehension classNo problem reading or comprehending. I was raised in the Canadian school system. Remember. Highest literacy rating in the world!Literacy means on can read. Comprehension means one understands what they read.

Your comprehension lacks.

By the way, January 1, 2008 the US ranked 20th and Canada 39th. ;)

[kay-gee]

You insist on bringing up Romans 8. I don't know what to tell you. You say it proves OSAS. I say it doesn't even discuss the subject. I say it is a declaration of the breadth of Gods love.
You say the Bible says nothing about a saved person being lost again. Not one single verse. (2Peter2:20-22) I'd be interested in your literal explanation of that.

I will never believe in OSAS or in a work free salvation. I can't believe it. Does that make me a bad guy?

all the best...

[Willy]

You insist on bringing up Romans 8. I don't know what to tell you. You say it proves OSAS. I say it doesn't even discuss the subject. I say it is a declaration of the breadth of Gods love.
You say the Bible says nothing about a saved person being lost again. Not one single verse. (2Peter2:20-22) I'd be interested in your literal explanation of that.

I will never believe in OSAS or in a work free salvation. I can't believe it. Does that make me a bad guy?

all the best...


... let's define who is being talked about.


2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

... hmmm ...


2 Peter 2:20

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
..."full knowledge" does not mean "saved"



2 Peter 2:22

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

... washed:… Voice: Middle …

... the middle voice indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit. E.g., "The boy groomed himself."

… not saved … sow washed itself.


… as opposed to:


Revelation 1:5

And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
... washed: … Voice: Active …

... the active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.

… saved … sins washed away by Lord Jesus Christ … in His own blood.

... His work 100% ... if not, you are not saved!

Willy:tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

Exactly, Willy. KG is insisting knowledge means saved. It does not. Satan and Fallen Angels have knowledge and are damned.

My point, KG, is you refuse to actually deal with verses word for word. You just toss out your opinion and feelings about it.

That is not discussion, not analysis and not debate. Yet you keep insisting on making pronouncements as if they are facts that disprove others.

THAT is the issue at hand. Romans 8 is only used to prove the point.

Now, for the lost number of times go through this word for word and tell us what it says.
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130j)] who[k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28130k)] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28138l)] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&version=31#fen-NIV-28140m)] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You said it is about love only, not being saved. Now tell me how one can be glorified without being saved? Where does it say anyone saved will or can be removed for the love of God that leads to their being saved? How can one love God and not be saved?

Actually deal with the verses for once in your time on CTZ. You NEVER have to date. You just toss out your personal opinions disrupting debate, discussion and Q&A.

What makes you think your opinions constitute reality? That is pure personal ego at work.

[kay-gee]

Sorry Willy. Not a very literal explanation. Seems to me you are fitting the verse into what you have decided to believe

First of all...how does one RETURN to a position when they were never away. Can you return home if you never left home?
How is it that the candiate here (vs 20) can be WORSE off? Is a sinner worse off returning to sin than remaining in sin? Makes no sense. Damnation is damnination!

Secondly...it says AFTER ESCAPE DEFILEMENTS OF THE WORLD. How is this acheived except through the blood of Christ. Those in this condition are SAVED!

Third...Why would Peter interupt this treatise TO CHRISTIANS to send this dire warning to peole not even saved? The letter is written to Christians (1:1) of the same same faith as the apostle himself. The warning is FOR CHRISTIANS!

These are not opinions and personal feelings. These are questions that I, as a student of scripture, have every right to ask of someone expounding the Bible and a particular doctrine.

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

Sorry Willy. Not a very literal explanation. Seems to me you are fitting the verse into what you have decided to believe
It is quite literal.
First of all...how does one RETURN to a position when they were never away. Can you return home if you never left home?
How is it that the candiate here (vs 20) can be WORSE off? Is a sinner worse off returning to sin than remaining in sin? Makes no sense. Damnation is damnination!
Knowledge, KG. That is the subject. They had KNOWLEDGE, not salvation.

They were dealing with the knowledge and doing some of it but then turned away. Never says saved.

As with those who stand before the Lord who preached his Gospel, they had a lot of knowledge but never repented so where never in Christ.
Secondly...it says AFTER ESCAPE DEFILEMENTS OF THE WORLD. How is this acheived except through the blood of Christ. Those in this condition are SAVED!
Yes, operating in the knowledge and commandments of Christ will take one from defilement But it says nothing, absolutely nothing, about being born-again.

You are changing the meaning of knowledge to salvation. You cannot do that.

Knowledge does not mean salvation. Never has.

I know people who have knowledge of Christ and will tell you his is real. But they NEVER were saved and will tell you they will be going to Hell because they will not submit to Christ. Never saved but they have knowledge.

You are adding your assumptions to the passage, just like you refuse to deal with Romans 8 saying those who love God WILL be glorified, thus meaning none who love God ever leave him.
Third...Why would Peter interupt this treatise TO CHRISTIANS to send this dire warning to peole not even saved? The letter is written to Christians (1:1) of the same same faith as the apostle himself. The warning is FOR CHRISTIANS!
Learn to read. It is to Christians talking about non Christians who think they are Christians.

Go back to chapter 1 and start there. It says to make sure of their calling and salvation because there are false prophets that will deceive people into a false salvation. That they begin with the truth and pervert it into a lie. It does not say anything about anyone loosing salvation.

Many begin seeking God and reading the truth of the Bible but they abandon that truth of the appeals of false gospels. Thus they leave the truth but were never saved.

Your problem is you focus on those verses you can spin to your thinking and run away from those that totally deny your position.

Romans 8 says WILL be glorified and CANNOT be removed from Christ. You have to be able to read 2 Peter in harmony with Romans 8, which you cannot.

No, you spin 2 Peter and then add words and contexts to Romans 8 to gain your position. I read Romans 8 literally, accepting WILL and CANNOT as stated and read 2 Peter as a teaching of the future Apostacy and staying true to the literal truth and knowledge as given in the Bible, not perverting it as those warned against will do.

If a born-again Christian becomes entangled in those errors they are no longer true to their callings in life, which serves Satan and evil. Still saved but ineffective and actually damaging to God's work.

WILL be glorified means Eternal Security. CANNOT means Eternal Secure.

2 Peter warns the born-again against the taint of others who will be damned to the Lake for eternity. It never says a word about the born-again being addressed having to fear the Lake.

Peter closes with:
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
It states God's patience means salvation.

Paul, in Romans, elaborates on these issues. He says we are dead to the Law, thus secure and free to sin. He says we while free to sin we have an obligation, not a fear of loosing salvaiton, to not sin.

Paul in Romans and Peter say the same things. Our salvation is secure but that does not mean we cannot fall into error, which destroys our rewards and purposes on this earth.

As Paul says all our works can be found unworthy and destroyed but we will still be saved as a man barely escaping a fire with his life. Works are for rewards, not salvation.

Knowledge leads to and makes people aware of Christ. Knowledge is not salvation, it is knowledge.
These are not opinions and personal feelings. These are questions that I, as a student of scripture, have every right to ask of someone expounding the Bible and a particular doctrine.

all the best...
Answered. Now, are you going to evaluate by your feelings or by, for once, reading by rules of grammar, semantics and linquistics?

Now, please deal with my points to you and go through the Romans 8 passage word by word per meaning and grammar, not your feelings.

[InTheWind]

So Kay-Gee your saying that even though God says we are fifth in His eyes and are only washed clean by the shed blood of Christ and that Christ suffered on the cross so you could somehow finish His work and be saved on your own.
When is your appointment to be crucified, isn`t that the ultimate work with anything less not being good enough.

[kay-gee]

So Kay-Gee your saying that even though God says we are fifth in His eyes and are only washed clean by the shed blood of Christ and that Christ suffered on the cross so you could somehow finish His work and be saved on your own.
When is your appointment to be crucified, isn`t that the ultimate work with anything less not being good enough.

Not exactly. Then I would have reason to boast. Obedience is not work.

Like in the army. Your superior officer tells you to do something. Can you boast that you did this great thing? NO! you are simply doing what you were told to do. Failure to comply leads to ....well you know!

all the best...

[kay-gee]

So knowledge is not Salvation? You mean like the way the Love of God is not salvation?

all the best...

[CoreIssue]

So knowledge is not Salvation? You mean like the way the Love of God is not salvation?

all the best...
Knock off the semantical nonsense.

The Bible makes it clear Satan, Fallen Angels and others know God and are not saved. You have been told that repeatedly.

But it clearly says those who love God will be glorified. Will be, not might. Again told repeatedly and given the passage more than once.

So the Bible answers your contradiction. But you don't pay attention to what it says because you don't want to see it.

Works of obedience are works. The Bible calls such effort works that can ern rewards. Again you try to play games with meanings.

You HAVE stated if one does not do works of God they loose their salvation, thus you do attach works to salvation, which denies the Bible saying if by works then grace is nullified.

Playing a semantically game by now trying to say if one does not obey they will loose their salvation. That means we are all lost because all of us disobey every day. It also means it is not by grace since grace means gift, given without any payment or requirement in return. Says we repent and ask forgiveness of the TRUE Christ.

Yes, asking forgiveness of any Christ will not save you. John makes it clear it has to be asked of the true Christ.

But it is asking in knowledge one is a hopeless sinner that cannot do anything to save themself, which you do not accept.

[kay-gee]

So knowledge is not Salvation? You mean like the way the Love of God is not salvation?

all the best...
Knock off the semantical nonsense.

The Bible makes it clear Satan, Fallen Angels and others know God and are not saved. You have been told that repeatedly.

Where?


But it clearly says those who love God will be glorified. Will be, not might. Again told repeatedly and given the passage more than once.


Where?


So the Bible answers your contradiction. But you don't pay attention to what it says because you don't want to see it.


I want to see it but I can't. Kinda like that argument we got into over Rev 3:10. I can't lie to you and say I see something I don't see.


Works of obedience are works

Then why does the Lord command them?


You HAVE stated if one does not do works of God they loose their salvation, thus you do attach works to salvation, which denies the Bible saying if by works then grace is nullified.


I never said grace is nullified. Grace will always be. I said that we can FALL from grace
Playing a semantically game by now trying to say if one does not obey they will loose their salvation. That means we are all lost because all of us disobey every day.

Not the same as turning back on God and returning to a life of wilful sinning.

It also means it is not by grace since grace means gift,

Never heard that meaning before. So I could buy someone a birthday grace or a Christmas grace?


Says we repent and ask forgiveness of the TRUE Christ.


Where?


Yes, asking forgiveness of any Christ will not save you. John makes it clear it has to be asked of the true Christ.


Semi-agree


to But it is asking in knowledge one is a hopeless sinner that cannot do anything save themself, which you do not accept.


I agree as long as that includes a response of obedient faith

all the best...

[kay-gee]

Now please, can we get onto the prophecy thread. I want to get into this while the events are fresh so I can see the connections.

all the best...

[Willy]

Sorry Willy. Not a very literal explanation. Seems to me you are fitting the verse into what you have decided to believe

First of all...how does one RETURN to a position when they were never away. Can you return home if you never left home?
How is it that the candiate here (vs 20) can be WORSE off? Is a sinner worse off returning to sin than remaining in sin? Makes no sense. Damnation is damnination!

Secondly...it says AFTER ESCAPE DEFILEMENTS OF THE WORLD. How is this acheived except through the blood of Christ. Those in this condition are SAVED!

Third...Why would Peter interupt this treatise TO CHRISTIANS to send this dire warning to peole not even saved? The letter is written to Christians (1:1) of the same same faith as the apostle himself. The warning is FOR CHRISTIANS!

These are not opinions and personal feelings. These are questions that I, as a student of scripture, have every right to ask of someone expounding the Bible and a particular doctrine.

all the best...

... Christendom is divided into two camps ...

CAMP ONE

... dead people washing themselves with knowledge of The Lord Jesus but never repenting and receiving His gift of Life ... so they remain dead but very religious.

... many become great preachers ... the dead leading the dead.

... I was this way for the first 25 years of my life.


CAMP TWO

.... dead people who become convicted of sin ... understand the consequences and repent ...

... accept God's gift of Life in His Son and are made alive by being washed by The Lord Jesus in His own Blood for the forgiveness of sin (sins).

... the foundation is secure and is His gift ... "ye are bought with a price"

... then you are raised as a son (child) and as a child are disciplined but always in the family.

... and yes there are going to be some smokey brothers in Heaven but they will be in Heaven.

... sorry if you can't see this ...

... how to approach God for forgiveness is not that well understood.

... perhaps you have not entered into fully, the cost to God to provide a way for you to be saved. ... common problem.



... it takes time to look up verb tenses and make things as easy to understand as possible.

... if you need help using an interlinear I would be happy to help you.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Pe&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/22


Willy:tiphat:

[CoreIssue]

Now please, can we get onto the prophecy thread. I want to get into this while the events are fresh so I can see the connections.

all the best...
Not until you go through Romans 8. That IS needful before we talk ANY other topic.

Until you learn how to read for meaning anything else is pointless.

You refuse to lay out what it says because you CANNOT do so because you do not use rules of grammar, etc.

No more of your challenges. Your turn to answer.

[CoreIssue]

Willy, there are also links to online Bibles and a great Interlinear in the links bar above. That allows cross referencing with word meaning comprehension.

But you are right. There are those who read per their perceived or invented meanings, often under the guise of some mystical dictionary called the Bible defining itself, such as KG, and those who actually look up the meanings and use them.

There are also those who read per the rules of grammar, context, language and so on and those who use that again use the vague and self invented the Bible interpreting itself playbook, meaning they pick the meanings they like and overwrite a else with it, such as KG again.

Pointless to try to discuss with them. Because no matter what the topic they use their own rules, not the real ones.

KG jumped from the Romans 8 issue to here to escape when I banned him from that thread. So, now where will he go when banned from this one? Answer Romans 8 or try to start up again on yet another thread, as is the norm for those with his thinking.

You would THINK their inability to answer my simple request would be a read flag they have a problem in their approach. But it does not, they just demand you cannot get the correct meaning my simple reading the passage for what it says because by it self it is inaccurate.

I wonder if they do the same thing for everything they read and hear?

Any way, thread locked until KG starts answering requests and stops trying to just run away.

Thread Locked!