PDA

View Full Version : Kept according to Rev 3:10


frankDH
04-17-2007, 02:31 PM
I have attempted to study the meaning of this verse using every avenue of investigation I could conceive of. The following research provides the results of this study.

Context,
Throughout the passage addressing the church of Philadelphia, the word kept/keep appears3 times [once in Rev 3:8 and twice in Rev 3:10]. Kept, as used in rev 3:8, is linked to possessing strength in the Lord and not denying His name. The thought here is that through faithful observation of biblical instruction one will have strength in the Lord and not deny Christ’s name.

We find a similar example of remaining faithful to God’s Word, in Rev 3:10, by having “kept the word of my patience”. Again, the connotation is a patient observation of God’s instruction leading to endurance [strength unto fidelity] in His word.

In the greater context of the full counsel of God we find the reward from God is reciprocal in nature.

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

And we find in Rev 3:10 this reciprocation on the part of God is maintained, in that those who have watched in their walk will be watch over as they walk.

This reciprocal reaction of God is further confirmed in His promise “ and I will write upon him my new name. “ for those who overcome [keep the word of His patience], in Rev 3:12.


Definition,


G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
1a) to guard
1b) metaphorically to keep, one in the state in which he is
1c) to observe
1d) to reserve: to undergo something
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to G2334)
Citing in TDNT: 8:140, 1174

The definition of tereo [Strong’s G5083] indicates a guarding or preservation of the believer. I am particularly stuck by Strong’s explanation “by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): “. This is in keeping with the notion of remaining chaste until united with the one to whom we have been espoused. [2Cor 11:2]

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Or as Thayer’s states this, “to keep, one in the state in which he is”. In other words, the definition suggests that we are kept by God’s maintaining our faith as we face the temptations of life. [See notes on prior usage - Jn 17:15].


Tense, voice and mood of the verbs

The following information was taken from the Blue Letter Bible site
[ http://www.blueletterbible.org/ ]

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept [aorist, active, indicative] the word of my patience, I also will keep [future, active, indicative] thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come [present, active, participle] [present, middle or passive deponent, infinitive] upon all the world, to try [aorist, active, infinitive] them that dwell [present, active, participle] upon the earth.


Explanation of verb tense:

Aorist -The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.


Future - The future tense corresponds to the English future, and
indicates the contemplated or certain occurrence of an event
which has not yet occurred.


Present - The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases
this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English
will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are
termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize
the event described as if the reader were there watching the
event occur. Some English translations render such historical
presents in the English past tense, while others permit the
tense to remain in the present.


Explanation of verb voice:

Active - The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.


Middle or passive deponent - The middle or passive deponent forms in almost all cases are
translated as being in the active voice.



Explanation of verb mood:

Indicative - The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an
action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be
rendered in the indicative mood.


Participle - The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the
English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed
to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either
like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed
a "verbal noun."


Infinitive - The Greek infinitive mood in most cases corresponds to the
English infinitive, which is basically the verb with "to"
prefixed, as "to believe."

Like the English infinitive, the Greek infinitive can be used
like a noun phrase ("It is better to live than to die"), as
well as to reflect purpose or result ("This was done to
fulfil what the prophet said").

Note that the “hour of temptation” that shall come is expressed in the present tense, while the keeping will continue due to future tense. This indicates there is no difference between the keeping during this test of temptation, in the future, and the way we are kept in the present. [See notes on prior usage -Jn 17:15]


Prior usage of the union of tereo [keep] and ek [from]

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jn 17:15 is the only place in the New Testament where tereo and ek are combined in the same manner as Rev 3:10. Prior usage of this combination would suggest that there is a figurative spatial difference between our physical presence in temptation and our spiritual position in Christ.

Greek grammar

VINE’S WORD STUDY
A1. Keep, Keeping (Noun) [Verb]
tereo denotes
(a) "to watch over, preserve, keep, watch," e.g., Acts_12:5,6; Acts_16:23; in Acts_25:21, RV (1st part), "kept" (AV, "reserved"); the present participle is translated "keepers" in Matt_28:4, lit. "the keeping (ones);" it is used of the "keeping" power of God the Father and Christ, exercised over His people, John_17:11,12,15; 1_Thess_5:23, "preserved;" 1_John_5:18, where "He that was begotten of God," RV, is said of Christ as the Keeper ("keepeth him," RV, for AV, "keepeth himself"); Jude_1:1, RV, "kept for Jesus Christ" (AV, "preserved in Jesus Christ"); Rev_3:10; of their inheritance, 1_Pet_1:4 ("reserved"); of judicial reservation by God in view of future doom, 2_Pet_2:4,9,17; 2_Pet_3:7; Jude_1:6,13; of "keeping" the faith, 2_Tim_4:7; the unity of the Spirit, Eph_4:3; oneself, 2_Cor_11:9; 1_Tim_5:22; James_1:27; figuratively, one's garments, Rev_16:15;
(b) "to observe, to give heed to," as of keeping commandments, etc., e.g., Matt_19:17; John_14:15; John_15:10; John_17:6; James_2:10; 1_John_2:3,4,5; 1_John_3:22,24; 1_John_5:2 (in some mss.), 1_John_5:3; Rev_1:3; Rev_2:26; Rev_3:8,10; Rev_12:17; Rev_14:12; Rev_22:7,9. See RESERVE.

VINCENT’S WORD STUDY

From the hour (ἐκ)
The preposition implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation, as the result of which they shall be delivered out of its power. Compare Joh_17:15.

Both of these students of Greek grammar indicate the keeping from temptation is the preservation of the believer while in the presence of temptation as opposed to being removed from the temptation itself.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 02:33 PM
Core, I reposted so you could comment. I did make an edit. I have placed my summary of each resource in orange so you can distinguish between my understanding and those who have a formal education in Greek grammar and definition.

Given our history of back and forth could we take your questions or comments one at a time?

frankDH
04-17-2007, 03:07 PM
The saints must "endure" the temptations and wrath that God will pour out over the entire planet in order to be proven worthy?

This was your first comment. I never said anything to indicate that this was my position. It wasn't the purpose of this study to present my own understanding of things. While I did provide a short summary of what is stated in these resources the statements made by these who are more educated in greek than either of us should be able to be taken at face value.

As we have discussed in the past, I come from a family where half the men are electricians and the rest are pretrib preachers [Grandpa used to quip, either way you go, you deal with the power].

Two of the pastors in my family have formal training in greek and one of them also in Hebrew. The resources I have used are resources they consult in there own studies. I have seen each of them referenced many times by pretribbers and posties alike. This is why I chose to use them. I thought it might be a commonality that would enhance the study for all.

Please try to avoid reading anything into my presentation. I know you are a veteran in debate and can, in many instances, anticiptate what the others conclusions might ultimately be. All I can tell you is that I have never fit snuggly into any of the common categories people are labelled by. It will be easier on both of us if you wait for me to make an assertion before you begin to debate it. I'm not some of the people you have debated in the past. I wouyld prefer, if we are going to discuss this, to defend my own understanding. I am not comfortable defending the position of others.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 05:20 PM
Frank, that is true for the word tereo/kept.

But that is not what is applicable in Rev 3:10. Tereo ek is.

It is an adverbial phrase that means protected by removal to keep from entering the situation. It means not there.

Not protected in, during or through. Simply not there.
Quote:
Strong's Number: 5083threÑwOriginal WordWord Origin threÑw from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to (2334 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=2334)))Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Tereo tay-reh'-o http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=5083g.rm) Parts of SpeechTDNT Verb 8:140,1174 Definition
to attend to carefully, take care of
to guard
metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
to observe
to reserve: to undergo something
Quote:
Strong's Number: 1537eÍkOriginal WordWord Origin eÍk a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or causeTransliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Ek ek http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=1537gb.rm) http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=1537g.rm) Parts of SpeechTDNT Preposition literal or figurative Definition
out of, from, by, away from
Clearly means not there.

In every NT example the person(s) are kept from the place of issue. Be it a city or country.

In Revelation the place of testing is the whole earth. One cannot be on the earth and be kept from the testing. That is keeping through the testing.

It says all on the earth are tested. Not some.

As to your second comment, I did not provide the analysis, but I did quote the people who did in their total comment on the subject. I did however fail to provide the link to Vine's word study so you could confirm it for yourself. My apologies. Here it is. http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1560#A1

And I got the information provided by Vincent from E-sword. Hope that helps.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept [aorist, active, indicative] the word of my patience, I also will keep [future, active, indicative] thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come [present, active, participle] [present, middle or passive deponent, infinitive] upon all the world, to try [aorist, active, infinitive] them that dwell [present, active, participle] upon the earth.
Shall come is present tense?? Since when?
Quote:
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
All future tense. No present tense.

I provided the link to the Blue Letter Bible site so you could check things out for yourself. If you are not familiar with how to navigate the site I can talk you through it. Everything I presented is exactly as shown on the site.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 07:41 PM
Quote:
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept [aorist, active, indicative] the word of my patience, I also will keep [future, active, indicative] thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come [present, active, participle] [present, middle or passive deponent, infinitive] upon all the world, to try [aorist, active, infinitive] them that dwell [present, active, participle] upon the earth.
Shall come is present tense?? Since when?
Quote:
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
All future tense. No present tense.

I provided the link to the Blue Letter Bible site so you could check things out for yourself. If you are not familiar with how to navigate the site I can talk you through it. Everything I presented is exactly as shown on the site.
And exactly wrong on Revelation 3:10.

I understand you were giving it as reading material.

But wrong is wrong.

The Greek use of present tense is not the same as the English use. In many cases it is used not to set time frame, but to declare it is absolute fact.
Strong's Number: 5738Tense, Voice and MoodWord Tense Present The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

None of the translations render it present tense in the English. All use future tense.

So, the Blue Letter is not saying it is present tense in the English, but in the Greek.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 07:49 PM
Core, I reposted so you could comment. I did make an edit. I have placed my summary of each resource in orange so you can distinguish between my understanding and those who have a formal education in Greek grammar and definition.

Given our history of back and forth could we take your questions or comments one at a time?
OK. I think the adds aided the presentation.

I agree with CTZ that what he asked was what the original post seem to imply stating.

My one biggie is that it is an adverbial phrase there, kept from/tereo ek. So to deal strictly with tereo isn't accurate.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 07:57 PM
Core, I reposted so you could comment. I did make an edit. I have placed my summary of each resource in orange so you can distinguish between my understanding and those who have a formal education in Greek grammar and definition.

Given our history of back and forth could we take your questions or comments one at a time?
OK. I think the adds aided the presentation.

I agree with CTZ that what he asked was what the original post seem to imply stating.

My one biggie is that it is an adverbial phrase there, kept from/tereo ek. So to deal strictly with tereo isn't accurate.

The combination of tereo and ek was adddressed under the following headings.

1] Prior usage of the union of tereo [keep] and ek [from]
2] Greek grammar

frankDH
04-17-2007, 07:59 PM
Sorry. I mistakenly attributed CTZ's comments to Core. No intent to slight anyone. Nice to meet you CTZ.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 08:05 PM
Core, I reposted so you could comment. I did make an edit. I have placed my summary of each resource in orange so you can distinguish between my understanding and those who have a formal education in Greek grammar and definition.

Given our history of back and forth could we take your questions or comments one at a time?
OK. I think the adds aided the presentation.

I agree with CTZ that what he asked was what the original post seem to imply stating.

My one biggie is that it is an adverbial phrase there, kept from/tereo ek. So to deal strictly with tereo isn't accurate.

The combination of tereo and ek was adddressed under the following headings.

1] Prior usage of the union of tereo [keep] and ek [from]
2] Greek grammar
Prior usage of the union of tereo [keep] and ek [from]

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jn 17:15 is the only place in the New Testament where tereo and ek are combined in the same manner as Rev 3:10. Prior usage of this combination would suggest that there is a figurative spatial difference between our physical presence in temptation and our spiritual position in Christ.
What has John 17:15 got to do with Revelation 3:10? :scratch:

What a spiritualized answer, Frank.

How about the literal meaning?

John is literally self explanatory. It addresses physical removal from the earth and being kept from evil.

Where does that limit it to being kept from evil spiritually? It doesn't.

And it does not define use in a different contextual setting in Revelation 3:10.

John does not define Revelation 3:10. That is a very old Postie argument.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 08:10 PM
Quote:
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept [aorist, active, indicative] the word of my patience, I also will keep [future, active, indicative] thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come [present, active, participle] [present, middle or passive deponent, infinitive] upon all the world, to try [aorist, active, infinitive] them that dwell [present, active, participle] upon the earth.
Shall come is present tense?? Since when?
Quote:
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
All future tense. No present tense.

I provided the link to the Blue Letter Bible site so you could check things out for yourself. If you are not familiar with how to navigate the site I can talk you through it. Everything I presented is exactly as shown on the site.
And exactly wrong on Revelation 3:10.

I understand you were giving it as reading material.

But wrong is wrong.

The Greek use of present tense is not the same as the English use. In many cases it is used not to set time frame, but to declare it is absolute fact.
Strong's Number: 5738Tense, Voice and MoodWord Tense Present The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.
None of the translations render it present tense in the English. All use future tense.

So, the Blue Letter is not saying it is present tense in the English, but in the Greek.

You may have a valid point here. I'm not educated enough to know for sure. I am aware that with some verbs presented in the aorist tense, and not accompanied by the indicative mood, indicate no inference as to timing at all, but are usually translated as past tense because no English eqivilent exists.

In many cases it is used not to set time frame, but to declare it is absolute fact.

This suggests more than one possibility. Do you have research confirming the possibility you favor is correct? Always open to further information if a credible source is used.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 08:16 PM
Hmmm.

How about no version says anthing but future tense?

Plus, going future to present or past tense makes no sense.

Because you have... Past or present tense, or both.
I will keep you from... future tense adverbial phrase denoting absolute action.
the testing... neutral tense.
that will come... future tense.

No reason for it to be anything but future. The whole phrase is a future tense statement.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 08:20 PM
Core, I reposted so you could comment. I did make an edit. I have placed my summary of each resource in orange so you can distinguish between my understanding and those who have a formal education in Greek grammar and definition.

Given our history of back and forth could we take your questions or comments one at a time?
OK. I think the adds aided the presentation.

I agree with CTZ that what he asked was what the original post seem to imply stating.

My one biggie is that it is an adverbial phrase there, kept from/tereo ek. So to deal strictly with tereo isn't accurate.

The combination of tereo and ek was adddressed under the following headings.

1] Prior usage of the union of tereo [keep] and ek [from]
2] Greek grammar
Prior usage of the union of tereo [keep] and ek [from]

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Jn 17:15 is the only place in the New Testament where tereo and ek are combined in the same manner as Rev 3:10. Prior usage of this combination would suggest that there is a figurative spatial difference between our physical presence in temptation and our spiritual position in Christ. What has John 17:15 got to do with Revelation 3:10? :scratch:

What a spiritualized answer, Frank.

How about the literal meaning?

John is literally self explanatory. It addresses physical removal from the earth and being kept from evil.

Where does that limit it to being kept from evil spiritually? It doesn't.

And it does not define use in a different contextual setting in Revelation 3:10.

John does not define Revelation 3:10. That is a very old Postie argument.

Sorry you feel that way. I wasn't attempting to spiritualize anything. I only wanted to give the only other instance of tereo and ek in combination so that the presentation was as exhaustive as possible. I'm perfectly satisified with your acceptance or rejection of any of this with regard to your own interpretation of the matters at hand. Everything presented was meant to be food for thought. When I originally posted it, I had no intent of being in a debate. That's what I understand the forum I originally posted in was for. I only reposted here so your need to comment didn't draw me into an infraction of board rules.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 09:31 PM
Sorry you feel that way. I wasn't attempting to spiritualize anything.
I know. But it does come out a non-literal meaning.
I only wanted to give the only other instance of tereo and ek in combination so that the presentation was as exhaustive as possible.
I understand.

In both cases it shows not being there for the issue at hand. So they are in agreement.

What changes is the issue at hand. One is evil in the world. One is the testing of the world.

And remember, John was a prayer, not a statement or demand. A request, which means it didn't have to come true.

I'm perfectly satisified with your acceptance or rejection of any of this with regard to your own interpretation of the matters at hand. Everything presented was meant to be food for thought. When I originally posted it, I had no intent of being in a debate. That's what I understand the forum I originally posted in was for. I only reposted here so your need to comment didn't draw me into an infraction of board rules.
http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif
Frank, what you posted is legitimate discussion based on a persective of the words.

That is a far cry from just laying out a statement that it means this or that with no reasoning given.

Vioate a rule? You didn't even come close, my friend.

You posted it for comment. I answered.

I took it for a question about what others believe, not a statement of where you are.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 09:38 PM
Frank, I moved, merged and cleaned up the posts. So if any look a little strange in placement it is because they post by date.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 10:33 PM
I know. But it does come out a non-literal meaning.

We really do not see the term literal in the same way. Not that this changes anything for either of us. It just inhibits communications.


I understand.

In both cases it shows not being there for the issue at hand. So they are in agreement.

What changes is the issue at hand. One is evil in the world. One is the testing of the world.

Yeah, but there was never a claim the issues were the same. Only that the combination can be used to express being kept from whatever the subject is without being removed from it’s presence.


And remember, John was a prayer, not a statement or demand. A request, which means it didn't have to come true.

Core, this was Jesus praying. He taught if you believe and pray you receive it. He promised the Spirit on the basis of a prayer he hadn’t even prayed yet. That’s a stretch.

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 10:54 PM
I know. But it does come out a non-literal meaning.

We really do not see the term literal in the same way. Not that this changes anything for either of us. It just inhibits communications.

:scratch: How can using John and saying it refers to our spiritual relationship to Christ be taken as a literal reading of the verse?

It says keep from evil but not taken from the world in John. In Revelation it says kept from the hour of testing.

It is based on our relationship to Christ, of course, but it is talking about being kept from something. Which is the wole significance of both verses.

So, what kept from literally means is the key.


I understand.

In both cases it shows not being there for the issue at hand. So they are in agreement.

What changes is the issue at hand. One is evil in the world. One is the testing of the world.

Yeah, but there was never a claim the issues were the same. Only that the combination can be used to express being kept from whatever the subject is without being removed from it’s presence.

Which isn't true.

In both cases it means not in it. That is what kept from means.

To be kept from a burning house means not in it. To be kept safe in a burning house is something else. From is the key word. From means not in it.

And remember, John was a prayer, not a statement or demand. A request, which means it didn't have to come true.

Core, this was Jesus praying. He taught if you believe and pray you receive it. He promised the Spirit on the basis of a prayer he hadn’t even prayed yet. That’s a stretch.
No, it isn't, since the Apostles actually were not kept from evil, but kept safe in evil.

God sent Christ to die for all in the world, in example. Does that mean all were saved? Absolutely not.

He sent Christ to Israel. Did that mean Israel received accepted him? No.

kay-gee
04-17-2007, 10:54 PM
This is way out of my league. I better go to some other threads. I think this one is a cauldron looking to boil over again. I need some levity...All the best....

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 11:05 PM
This is way out of my league. I better go to some other threads. I think this one is a cauldron looking to boil over again. I need some levity...All the best....
Nah! No boil over.

Just an exchange. Nothing more.

But, levity is good for one.

frankDH
04-17-2007, 11:13 PM
This is way out of my league. I better go to some other threads. I think this one is a cauldron looking to boil over again. I need some levity...All the best....
Nah! No boil over.

Just an exchange. Nothing more.

But, levity is good for one.

Hey Core,

Now that's how it started in the old days. Feeling younger yet?

CoreIssue
04-17-2007, 11:20 PM
This is way out of my league. I better go to some other threads. I think this one is a cauldron looking to boil over again. I need some levity...All the best....
Nah! No boil over.

Just an exchange. Nothing more.

But, levity is good for one.

Hey Core,

Now that's how it started in the old days. Feeling younger yet?
Ask me when my feet stop aching. :swoon: