Challenge 3 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee

[CoreIssue]

This is a copy of a post amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee refuse to reply to in kind. The will post NT verses with their spin on it. They will tell everyone what the select verse from it mean. They will do everything but go through it and explain line by line what it says.

Why? Because their beliefs are built upon assumptions not fact. And simply declaring someting fact does not make it so.


If their doctrine is correct, they should be able to explain away, literally, any passages posted to refute them.


But they don't. All they reply with is spun, singled out verses, that do not say what they claim they say.


So, this thread was created to put an end to the constant rhetoric, accusations and false claims repeated over and over and over.

Either they go through this passage, explain it line for line, or they move on to another subject, because the rhetoric and back and forth, now occuring, is fruitless and damaging, in the long run.

It also shows they have nothing else to offer.


So, guys, either lay this out, line for line, explaining, as I did, or move on.


I do mean it. Any more just rhetorical attacks will get you a vacation from the board for a month. And if you come back and do the same, a permanent ban.


This has to end. Explain or move to another topic.

Zechariah 14

The LORD Comes and Reigns

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

This has never happened in history. You have to spiritualize it to claim it has.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Has never happened yet.

5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23074a)] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Has not happened. And this states Christ will literally come to the earth, just as desribed in Revelation 19.

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

As shown in Revelation.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23077b)] and half to the western sea, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23077c)] in summer and in winter.

Has not happened yet. Remember the land split in two, here.

9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

His name is not the only name, now. He does not rule the earth physically, now.

10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

Most assuredly has never happened to date.
12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
Has never happened yet. And Revelation adds to what will happen at the Second Coming at Armageddon.
13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other.
Never happened yet.
14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing.
Never has happened yet.

15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

Again, never has happened yet.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty,
This builds on the statements Christ comes physically. He WILL be ruling from Jerusalem, on this earth.
and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Requires a Temple. And that is blueprinted in Ezekiel.
17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.
Sin. Talking of sin on the earth. Sure not in Heaven.
18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain.
Eqypt is but ONE nation talked about here. You want to make it all about Egypt so as to be able to use the figurative usage of Egypt in the Bible.

That fails because MANY nations are spoken of here.
The LORD [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23087d)] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations
Nations. Many nations.
that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Again, physical Temple required.

19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Again, this physical earth, not Heaven, sin and a Temple.
20 On that dayHOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house
Temple again!
will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.
Alter! Temple!
21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice
Sacrifice! Temple!
will take some of the pots and cook in them.
Cook. Physical. Animal death to eat.

And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23090e)] in the house of the LORD Almighty.

The New Earth of the MK is the earth of today, made new by restoration. It is not the New Earth of Eternity.

Read literally. Absolutely zero need to spiritualize anything to make it fit what I have said.

You, on the other hand, can accept nothing literally said here.

[CoreIssue]

Bump

[WFTD]

Zechariah 14

The Day of the LORD

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.

2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Makinga very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.

7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD— Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.

9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”

And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

13 It shall come to pass in that day That a great panic from the LORD will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations Shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

15 Such also shall be the plague On the horse and the mule, On the camel and the donkey, And on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be.

The Nations Worship the King 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
I first wanted to illustrate just from reading this chapter, how difficult it is to understand it, let alone put it in a paticular time frame. To me, on the surface, it is as clear as mud. A lot of people put the reference timing of this chapter to a still future event. In general, I don't have any problem with that except since it is not exactly saying it is, nor is their much elsewhere to go on that it is, I think it is mostly obscure and will always remain a mystery in part.
But, we are not left without some clues and this is the other reason for posting the chapter. You may not agree with me, but as always I challenge you to read and research for yourself and come up with your own conclusions. Try not to approach this chapter with the prejudice that it is all about the end of time. It could well be but find out for yourself instead of listening to me or to some other person. Let Scripture interpret Scripture.
As I said earlier, some understand Zechariah 14 to be describing a yet future event. Not just future at the time of the prophet but over 2000 years in the future after the ressurection of Christ. But I do not take it that way - and there are a number of reasons why.
First of all there are some basic New Testament doctrines that would be invalid if Zech. 14 is future because if, in fact, some people think verses 16-21 describe the millinieal reign of Christ we have some things done away with by Christ that would have to be restored. And the New Testament seems to say that they won't be restored.
Here are a list of reasons why I find it very difficult to take this chapter as yet to be in our future:
1. First of all there are many place names that are given that used to be certain districts in Jerusalem. They don't exist anymore. More likely is that this has already happened since they once existed but now don't.
2. Verse 16 certainly talks about mandated localized worship in Jerusalem. Everyone has to come and if they don't then bad things befall them. This contradicts John 4:21 - in other words, no more worshipping in spirit and in truth but instead back to the tabernacle type worship. So, something done away with in Christ is somehow changed back to the shadow and inferior method. So this in verse 16 is not to be taken literal.
3. The referance to keeping the Feasts of the Tabernacle - Paul makes it very clear that these are gone and gone for good. (see Colossians 2:16)
4. Verse 21 specifically talks about making animal sacrifices. These go against Hebrews 9 and 10. The specific verses are Hebrews 9:9-10 and Chapter 10: 4-6, 9-12. These make it clear that the sacrificial system is gone forever - Jesus was our One final sacrifice - Once for all time.
5. What's worse, we have unsaved survivors coming up and doing all of this out of all the nations. This goes against the event of the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is the end of the world but here Futurists believe some have escaped Jesus' destruction of them. They need to rethink this. (see 1 Thess. 5)
It is obvious that verses 1 & 2 of Zech 14 are for 70AD.
The references to topographical changes are figuritive. I can turn your attention to Micah 1:3,4 - Heb. 3:6 - Is. 2:2 and Is. 40:3,4. This kind of language is common in the Old Testament and never is literal. Its talking about spiritual things and in fact we know that because John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the one where every mountain shall be brought low and every valley exalted. Is. 40 and all four gospels tell us he was the fulfillment.

Now for the biggy of verses 4 & 8. Is this literal and how does one know that this "He" is Jesus or not? Nowhere else is it said that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives. Some say the asscension proves it, but really the angel said we would see Him return in like manner, not the same place necessarily. But I can show that this is speaking of Jehovah God. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,

From east to west,

Making a very large valley;

Half of the mountain shall move toward the north

And half of it toward the south.
On only one other occasion before did such a thing happen. At that time Jehovah God stood on the Mount of Olives - of course God is Spirit - so even this is not literal, but the time was just before the first destruction of Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian exile of the Jews. It was at that time that the Glory of God left the Temple. (Ezekiel chapters 8-11:23)

To understand this is to understand that when the Glory of God left the temple at the time just before the exile is to understand that this sealed the destruction of Jerusalem. In fact it may well be that your marginal reference in your Bible directs from Ezekiel 11:23 back to Zech. 14:4.

So why do we have 2 places in the whole Bible that speak of God on the Mount of Olives? In the first case it was His departure from Jerusalem. The Jews had been sinning greatly in constant disobiedience to God. The prophets spoke of the time that was to come when God will end His fellowship with them. But in this case He said it would not be forever but that He would once again restore them.

In the second case it was like the first only that the destroyer of Jerusalem was not babylon but Rome. Remember, no where else do we have to show us that this was an action done by Jesus.

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives
We know that God did it once and under what circumstances and we know that once again and for the final time, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and we know the reason God had for making this happen.

We have the proof of Jesus' own words that not one stone would be left here upon another. and we have The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers. (Matthew 21)


33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:



‘ The stone which the builders rejected

Has become the chief cornerstone.

This was the LORD’s doing,

And it is marvelous in our eyes’?


43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.
The second and final departure, (where before God said that he would restore the city) when now Jesus tells of the final and worse atrocity the Jews could commit in killing the very Messiah they had been waiting for, now at the hands of the Romans.

In both cases and literal actions, verse 2 was fulfilled.

2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

The city shall be taken,

The houses rifled,

And the women ravished.

Half of the city shall go into captivity,

But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
This is not a reference to the second coming of Christ at all. Instead it is the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

[CoreIssue]

I first wanted to illustrate just from reading this chapter, how difficult it is to understand it, let alone put it in a paticular time frame. To me, on the surface, it is as clear as mud.
Because you refuse to read it literally and it is IMPOSSIBLE to fit into Amillinnialism.

When you read it literally and understand the MK is going to be real, on this earth, it is crystal clear what is being said. No problems at all.

You can NEVER make this fit Amill.
A lot of people put the reference timing of this chapter to a still future event. In general, I don't have any problem with that except since it is not exactly saying it is, nor is their much elsewhere to go on that it is, I think it is mostly obscure and will always remain a mystery in part.
That is a nonsense statement.

Since it has not happened yet, it is future. A simple process of logic.
But, we are not left without some clues and this is the other reason for posting the chapter. You may not agree with me, but as always I challenge you to read and research for yourself and come up with your own conclusions.
You bet I don't agree with you.

Research what? Amills spiritualized claims that offer nothing for proof? Just opinions on how God works?

That is proof of nothing. Just opinions.
Try not to approach this chapter with the prejudice that it is all about the end of time. It could well be but find out for yourself instead of listening to me or to some other person.
It isn't a prejudice to read something that has not happened yet that expresses issues of the MK to see it as End Times. That is simple logic, not emotionalism, which Amill is based upon.
Let Scripture interpret Scripture.
THAT old lame claim. Also used by Post-Mills and Post-Trib. None of which, including Amills, agree with each other.

Why? Because in spiritualizing the Bible, each sees what they want to see. Foundation and evidenceless. Based on what they want to find and opinion.

Each equal invalid, because they can prove nothing. Each based on spiritualizing the Bible.

This phrase is an excuse for ignoring word definitions, proper grammar and reading literally. Trying claim the Bible has a different set of rules for reading than any other document.

Yet, where is this rule laid out in the Bible? NO WHERE.

So evey their method of intrepretation cannot be found in the Bible, grammar, linqustics, law, logic or anywhere else.

It is a personal desire, emotional based argument.
As I said earlier, some understand Zechariah 14 to be describing a yet future event. Not just future at the time of the prophet but over 2000 years in the future after the ressurection of Christ.
Hasn't happened yet. That makes it still future. Simple logic.

But I do not take it that way - and there are a number of reasons why.

Yep. You dispise the idea Israel will be restored, do not understand covenants and refuse to read literally, as you would any other document.
First of all there are some basic New Testament doctrines that would be invalid if Zech. 14 is future
Totally false. Only YOUR doctrines would be invalid. because you spiritualize the NT as well.
because if, in fact, some people think verses 16-21 describe the millinieal reign of Christ we have some things done away with by Christ that would have to be restored.
False. Christ 'did away' with nothing. He fulfilled all.

But, because the Church Age has one time for giving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the MK another, that does away with nothing. It simply changes the 'when' it occurs.

Again, not understanding covenants is your failure. Covenant is not salvation. It is about salvation.

Salvation has been the same from Adam to the end of time. Covenant present or not.

And the New Testament seems to say that they won't be restored.

False. Revelation is NT and says they will. As does Hebrews, where it states the New
Covenant is still future to the Church Age. Just two examples.
Here are a list of reasons why I find it very difficult to take this chapter as yet to be in our future:
1. First of all there are many place names that are given that used to be certain districts in Jerusalem. They don't exist anymore. More likely is that this has already happened since they once existed but now don't.

Prophecy says they will be restored. Isaiah 11, Revelation, Zech, Ezekiel and more all show Israel and the stone Temple restored.

Even Acts states Israel will be restored. Yea, you try to claim it means Church becomes Israel. But Gentiles cannot be restored to what they never were a part of, Israel.

Your inability to see what restoration means is not the Bible's fault.

2. Verse 16 certainly talks about mandated localized worship in Jerusalem. Everyone has to come and if they don't then bad things befall them. This contradicts John 4:21 - in other words, no more worshipping in spirit and in truth but instead back to the tabernacle type worship. So, something done away with in Christ is somehow changed back to the shadow and inferior method. So this in verse 16 is not to be taken literal.

False argument.

Presenting realities of the Church Age does not negate realities of Israel. Two covenants with two different set of realities and rules.

In the Church Age, we are the Temples. In the MK, the stone Temple is back with Christ as the High Priest therein.

Again, it does not say done away with. Completes and done away with are two totally different thing.

3. The referance to keeping the Feasts of the Tabernacle - Paul makes it very clear that these are gone and gone for good. (see Colossians 2:16)

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Not word one of done away with for good.

This was instructions to Gentiles in the Church Age. Not even talking about the MK or future, after the Church Age.

You are saying Isaiah, Ezekiel, John and the others all got it wrong about the future. Hmmm.

4. Verse 21 specifically talks about making animal sacrifices. These go against Hebrews 9 and 10. The specific verses are Hebrews 9:9-10 and Chapter 10: 4-6, 9-12. These make it clear that the sacrificial system is gone forever - Jesus was our One final sacrifice - Once for all time.

Again, not the Church Age.

Christ did one sacrfice for all time. YET, the OT saints of Israel were part of all time, were the not?

They did sacrifices, didn't they? Why?

Because they were looking forward to receiving that one sacrifice for all time that had not happened yet.

The MK saints will also be looking forward to receiving it, since they will not receive it in the flesh.

Christ died once for all sin. That does not tell us WHEN the saint receives that blood, does it?

5. What's worse, we have unsaved survivors coming up and doing all of this out of all the nations. This goes against the event of the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is the end of the world but here Futurists believe some have escaped Jesus' destruction of them. They need to rethink this. (see 1 Thess. 5)

No, you need to rethink it.

Revelation lays out a clear time line of 7 Hebrew years.

Chruch Age ends and the 7 Lampstand are gone. Church is gone from the earth. The covenant stands are no longer in effect, as one the one stand disappeared when OT Israel no longer was covenant.

Now, at the First Seal/Rapture we see the Two Lampstands, the Two Witnesses. The Lampstands of the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

Now we see the Woman, the 12 Tribes, the stone Temple and all the OT trappings firmly back in place.

Why? Because the Trib is the 70th Week of Daniel.

At Mid Trib the 7th Trumpet blows and it is announced Christ is coming. He is taking the earth to rule.

At the end of the Trib, we see the Second Coming, the physical return of Christ, with his saints.

Then we see the MK. AFTER the Second Coming.

We see Satan bound for the MK. AFTER the Second Coming.

Then we see Satan released for the Short Time after the MK. THEN we see the current Heavens and Earth Destroyed with a brand new earth and heavens created.

But, of course, you do not see this because you do not read literally.

But, if you did, you would see absolutely no conflict or confusion with Zech, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Revelation or any of the other prophetic books, who all state a stone Temple, MK on the earth and so on.

You have to spiritualize away so much of the Bible, it is sad.

Yet, you accuse those who read literally as having issues with the authors of the Bible.

No, it is you who refuse to read and understand what they said.

It is obvious that verses 1 & 2 of Zech 14 are for 70AD.

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
Nonsense.

The nations did not gather against Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Only Rome.

And Rome did not leave half the people. Those they did not kill they hauled off as slaves.

You need to study history.

This is a Mid Trib event. At Mid Russia, her allies, the AC Empire (EU) will all be there. The AC will win and take Jerusalem.
The references to topographical changes are figuritive.
False. They will literally happen.
I can turn your attention to Micah 1:3,4
3 Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
Nothing figurative about God walking the earth. Literal.
- Heb. 3:6

6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

Nothing figurative about it. Saints are members of God's House.
- Is. 2:2
2 In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
Nothing figurative about it.

The Temple Mount is on Mount Zion, as is Jerusalem.


Ezekiels Temple is HUGE. It will tower over the hills.
and Is. 40:3,4.



3 A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isa%2040:3-4;&version=31;#fen-NIV-18424a)] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
Yep. Figurative language.

But by the rules of grammar it is recognized as figurative with a literal meaning. Thus of litearal understanding.
This kind of language is common in the Old Testament and never is literal.
False, as demonstrated.

And who made you the wise one who could take literal words and give us other fools the correct meanings? Hmmmm?

You hold yourself as an oracle of God, when God says the Bible is not of private meaning.

Rules of grammar work just fine. Read the Bible literally.

Its talking about spiritual things and in fact we know that because John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the one where every mountain shall be brought low and every valley exalted. Is. 40 and all four gospels tell us he was the fulfillment.


Again, pay attention to the rules of grammar. You don't.

Your argument here totally fails.
Now for the biggy of verses 4 & 8.
Let us look at 4-8, not your hand picked approach.
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23074a)] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. 6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.


Very literal, giving compass directions and everything else. And absolutely in harmony with the Second Coming as stated in Revelation. So it is literal.
Is this literal and how does one know that this "He" is Jesus or not?
Because verse 3 says the Lord and at his ascension we are told he will return as he left. And he left from the same place we see his feet returning to here.
Nowhere else is it said that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives. Some say the asscension proves it, but really the angel said we would see Him return in like manner, not the same place necessarily.
That is nonsense. An excuse to try to escape the reality.
But I can show that this is speaking of Jehovah God.
Nope. You cannot.


4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.On only one other occasion before did such a thing happen. At that time Jehovah God stood on the Mount of Olives - of course God is Spirit - so even this is not literal, but the time was just before the first destruction of Jerusalem prior to the Babylonian exile of the Jews. It was at that time that the Glory of God left the Temple. (Ezekiel chapters 8-11:23)
Utterly wrong because:
1. God did not stand on the Mount of Olives in Ezekiel.
2. God did not split the Mount of Olives in Ezekiel
3. You ADDED words to the passages not there.

Again, your arguments fail.

To understand this is to understand that when the Glory of God left the temple at the time just before the exile is to understand that this sealed the destruction of Jerusalem.
To understand you are working very hard to deny the literal words, even to the point of adding words to Ezekiel, is very telling.

You deny the obvious and assume the unsaid.
In fact it may well be that your marginal reference in your Bible directs from Ezekiel 11:23 back to Zech. 14:4.
Nope. Not when they are two separate events and you added words never said.
So why do we have 2 places in the whole Bible that speak of God on the Mount of Olives?
We don't. Not said in Ezekiel.

In the first case it was His departure from Jerusalem. The Jews had been sinning greatly in constant disobiedience to God. The prophets spoke of the time that was to come when God will end His fellowship with them. But in this case He said it would not be forever but that He would once again restore them.

Wrong in the first case. God did not stand on the Mount of Olives.

Right in the second, but not in the way you mean. Israel is restored after the Church Age. It is not restored in the Church Age.

In the second case it was like the first only that the destroyer of Jerusalem was not babylon but Rome. Remember, no where else do we have to show us that this was an action done by Jesus.

No destruction was done by Jesus in the OT, since God did not incarate in the flesh to become Jesus until Mary.

But splitting the Mount of Olives has not happened. It is future. It is Jesus. It is the Second Coming.


[B]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives
We know that God did it once and under what circumstances and we know that once again and for the final time, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans and we know the reason God had for making this happen.
False. God never stood on the Mount of Olives and split it under his feet. You added to the passage.

We have the proof of Jesus' own words that not one stone would be left here upon another.
Which is about the destruction. As Jesus Body was destroyed and resurrected, so was the Temple destroyed and will be rebuilt. Per prophecy.

and we have The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers. (Matthew 21)


33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘ The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone.This was the LORD’s doing,And it is marvelous in our eyes’?43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” 45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.
Which has nothing to do with the Second Coming, 70th Week of Daniel and other prophecies about the restoration of Israel.

Nothing in any of what you posted says the taking away was permanent. Nothing.
The second and final departure,
Final never said. You added that.

(where before God said that he would restore the city) when now Jesus tells of the final and worse atrocity the Jews could commit in killing the very Messiah they had been waiting for, now at the hands of the Romans.


In both cases and literal actions, verse 2 was fulfilled.

2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.This is not a reference to the second coming of Christ at all. Instead it is the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.Totally false.

Half the city was not left in 70 AD. Those not killed were hauled off in slavery. Israel ceased to exist as a nation that day.

You need to learn history.