Challenge 2 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee

[CoreIssue]

This is a copy of a post amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee refuse to reply to in kind. The will post NT verses with their spin on it. They will tell everyone what the select verse from it mean. They will do everything but go through it and explain line by line what it says.

Why? Because their beliefs are built upon assumptions not fact. And simply declaring someting fact does not make it so.


If their doctrine is correct, they should be able to explain away, literally, any passages posted to refute them.


But they don't. All they reply with is spun, singled out verses, that do not say what they claim they say.


So, this thread was created to put an end to the constant rhetoric, accusations and false claims repeated over and over and over.

Either they go through this passage, explain it line for line, or they move on to another subject, because the rhetoric and back and forth, now occuring, is fruitless and damaging, in the long run.

It also shows they have nothing else to offer.


So, guys, either lay this out, line for line, explaining, as I did, or move on.


I do mean it. Any more just rhetorical attacks will get you a vacation from the board for a month. And if you come back and do the same, a permanent ban.


This has to end. Explain or move to another topic.

Amillennialism has a shopping cart and shotgun approach to defending its theology.

But there are issues in the Bible it cannot cope with, thus they just avoid them.

Here is one.

To any Amil reading, when does this take place and where?
Isaiah 65
New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2065&version=31#fen-NIV-18918a)] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

Not Heaven. There is no death, birth, building homes and such in Heaven.

Not in the past. Never happened.

Not in the present.

What does that leave? The future before Eternity, on this earth.

And don't try to leverage the New Heaven and Earth statement. The Hebrew word also means a remade, refreshed and renewed earth.

I have never found an Amil that can deal with this passage.

[CoreIssue]

Two!

One that is in a 'remodeled and refreshed' condition and one that is completely new from scratch.

Now, YOU tell me how you can have birth and death on the New Earth of eternity?

You cannot!

You ASSUME new means the eternal one every time. Bad assumption.

You don't get it.


Strong's Number: 02319#dxOriginal WordWord Origin #dx from (02318 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=002318))Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Chadash khaw-dawsh' http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=2319h.rm) Parts of SpeechTWOT Adjective 613a Definition

new, new thing, freshTranslated Words KJV (53) - fresh, 1; new, 48; new thing, 4; NAS (53) - New, 2; new, 47; new thing, 1; new things, 2; something new, 1;


NOTHING in the definition requires newly created, as with the New Earth of Eternity.

Freshened, revitalized and such also is 'new.'

Now, answer the question, is there birth and death on the Enternal New Earth?

[CoreIssue]

Bump

[kay-gee]

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I don't know what the passage means. All the best...

[CoreIssue]

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I don't know what the passage means. All the best...
Try reading it for what it says, not how it confuses you because it conflicts with your views.

No, you don't have to respond, but please try reading that way.

And thanks for an honest answer.

It LITERALLY says Christ will refresh the earth, including the remnant of people who remain, during the MK.

People will again live centuries, as the did before the Flood. No one will die in child birth. Homes will be built, crops planted and harvested. Those who die early, at 100 years, will obviously be evil. There will still be death and sin.

It will be a time of paradise on earth. But it is not the Eternal New Earth, which is created after this earth is destroyed.

Clearly a future time, but not eternity.

[WFTD]

The first half of Isaiah Chapter 65 is a continuation and an answer given by God to the people of Israle who have remained obstinante in God's eyes. They finished chapter 64 by asking:

12 Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O LORD?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely? (NKJV)
and God answers them with a sneer saying in part:
65:1 “I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
2 I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in a way that is not good,
According to their own thoughts;
3 A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face;


So we have Israel asking, why, Lord have you left us here and not come to our aid. And God basically says, because you have been a stubborn and rebellous people and all day long I have spread my hand out to you, and you have not been responsive to Me.
The Apostle Paul does an interesting thing with first two verses of this chapter where he quotes verse 1 in one connection and verse 2 in another at the end of Romans 10. Paul indicates that verse one is suggestive of the fact that the Gentiles will be sought by God as the people who didn't seek Him and that He would now be sought and found by them. By that the Apostle understood that historically the gentiles had not been seeking God, would now seek and find Him.

On the other hand Paul then describes Israel as the people God had always stretched out His hands for but yet they would not come. So Paul sees this as an ironic thing where the Jews should have, but did not - and the gentiles who were not called did seek Him.

************************************
Verses 8- 10 give a little glimpse of the remnant, before God continues His complaint against the nation. Of course there is always a little remnant that God has something good to say about. This is no exception.

8Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
9And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
10And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

So we see that there are a few, from Israel, who have sought Him just as there were a few good grapes in a cluster of bad grapes. God says He is going to bring for them an inheritor, a seed out of Jacob to inherit His mountains. These mountains, according to Hebrews is Zion, the spiritual Jerusalem, and that seed is Christ.

***********************************
11But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Verse 11 is showing how Israel went after another God. They have been worshiping the Babylonian Dieities. This is the LITERAL meaning of this verse and is easily provable.
For the very reason of adultry by Israel towards God He sent Israel into captivity and yet while under Babylonian service, instead of repenting they took on the gods of their captors. We see this illustrated for us in the book of Daniel as well as in Ezekiel.
Continuing on:

13Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
The beatitudes as they are given to us in Luke 6:20-26 resembles this passage very closely saying:
20And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Jesus is saying His servants shall be filled and we see that God is consistant and unchangeable and tells the same thing concerning His servants in Is. 65:13,14
Jesus fulfilled these words in the Luke 6 passage.
Is. 65:15And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
This happened once Christ came into the world and when followers of Christ began to call themselves Christian.
***********************************
Now its time to speak on a very wonderful passage of Isaiah 65.


Isaiah 65:
17 “ For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.
20 “ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
They shall not plant and another eat;
For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labor in vain,
Nor bring forth children for trouble;
For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD,
And their offspring with them.
24 “ It shall come to pass
That before they call, I will answer;
And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,”
Says the LORD.

Here we are introduced to what God calls a new heaven and a new earth.
One of the popular interpretation of this passage is that it is referring to a future millennium when Jesus returns and establishes His kingdom in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is restored as both politiacal and spiritual capital of the earth. Peace prevailing, no one is destroying another, and so on. This idea of wild animals living with tame animals is not unlike the idea given in Isaiah 11. Both are referred to as the millennium by some. Scofiel Reference Bible makes great use of that idea. Scofield makes a deliberate change of subject from verse 17 to 18 but the text does not do this. In fact. all chapters and verses were added to all Scripture centuries after the Bible was written. We need to stay within the context.

We need to let Scripture interpret Scripture to fine out the truth of the passages.
I don't see any reason to make these passages say something they don't say. We don't see mentioned that these refer to a future millenium, we don't see them refer to Christ reigning on earth nor any mention of things premil people say the millennium is characterized by. But we do see the mention of a new heavens and new earth, so we need to work with that.

We have two placed is the NT where it speaks of a new heaven and new earth. One is in 2Peter 3 and the other is in Revelation. Peter states that according to the promise of a new heaven and a new earth:

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The only other place we can find this promise prior to Peter writing it is found in our present chapter of Isaiah.

So Peter says we are looking for a new heaven and new earth, and as he describes it, it would appear the present univers would be dissolved, the elements shall melt with fervent heat. And Peter says this happens at the coming of the Lord. He is saying when Jesus comes back, on that day it will be the end of the world. He doesn't allow for a thousand year millennial reign before the end of the world. He just says in the day that the Lord comes.

So, the eschatiology of Peter seems to use Is. 65 to show us that when Jesus comes back its the end of this present world and it will be replaced by a new world in which only righteousness dwells.

Notice in the Revelation account John sees the new heaven and new earth and immediately the new Jerusalem dressed as the bride (that being the church) coming down out of heaven. Isaiah parallels this as well where he says:

18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;

Perfect description of the church.

[CoreIssue]

You spiritualized that completely.

And gave nothing to prove your point.

Did exactly what I said not to. Just preached your beliefs based on nothing.

Opinion is all you offered.

Answer by response to Challenge 1. Leave this one alone until you can deal with it.

You said nothing of value for a debate.