View Full Version : Challenge 1 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee
CoreIssue
04-08-2007, 07:30 PM
This is a copy of a post amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee refuse to reply to in kind. The will post NT verses with their spin on it. They will tell everyone what the select verse from it mean. They will do everything but go through it and explain line by line what it says.
Why? Because their beliefs are built upon assumptions not fact. And simply declaring someting fact does not make it so.
If their doctrine is correct, they should be able to explain away, literally, any passages posted to refute them.
But they don't. All they reply with is spun, singled out verses, that do not say what they claim they say.
So, this thread was created to put an end to the constant rhetoric, accusations and false claims repeated over and over and over.
Either they go through this passage, explain it line for line, or they move on to another subject, because the rhetoric and back and forth, now occuring, is fruitless and damaging, in the long run.
It also shows they have nothing else to offer.
So, guys, either lay this out, line for line, explaining, as I did, or move on.
I do mean it. Any more just rhetorical attacks will get you a vacation from the board for a month. And if you come back and do the same, a permanent ban.
This has to end. Explain or move to another topic.
Now, let us deal with what Amos 9 ACTUALLY says, and not your taking it out of context to put a spiritualized meaning upon.
1 I saw the Lord standing by the altar,
Physical Temple in Jerusalem, not the Heavenly one, due to what is said next, which he woud NOT do to the Heavenly.
and he said:
"Strike the tops of the pillars
so that the thresholds shake.
Bring them down on the heads of all the people;
those who are left I will kill with the sword.
Not one will get away,
none will escape.
2 Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22498a)]
from there my hand will take them.
Though they climb up to the heavens,
from there I will bring them down.
3 Though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
there I will hunt them down and seize them.
Though they hide from me at the bottom of the sea,
there I will command the serpent to bite them.
4 Though they are driven into exile by their enemies,
there I will command the sword to slay them.
I will fix my eyes upon them
for evil and not for good." 5 The Lord, the LORD Almighty,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
and all who live in it mourn—
the whole land rises like the Nile,
then sinks like the river of Egypt-
Happened in 70AD. The Romans piled a mountain of heads outside the gates of Jerusalem. Who didn't die was hauled off in slavery.
6 he who builds his lofty palace [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502b)] in the heavens
and sets its foundation [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502c)] on the earth,
who calls for the waters of the sea
and pours them out over the face of the land—
the LORD is his name.
Strongly sets the authority of God to do this.
7 "Are not you Israelites
Not talking to Gentiles here. Talking to Jews.
the same to me as the Cu****es [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503d)] ?"
declares the LORD .
"Did I not bring Israel up from Egypt,
the Philistines from Caphtor [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503e)]
and the Arameans from Kir?
8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD
are on the sinful kingdom.
I will destroy it
from the face of the earth—
Happened.
yet I will not totally destroy
the house of Jacob,"
declares the LORD.
9 "For I will give the command,
and I will shake the house of Israel
among all the nations
as grain is shaken in a sieve,
and not a pebble will reach the ground.
Israel was scattered in 70 AD.
10 All the sinners among my people
will die by the sword,
all those who say,
'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'
The Christian Jews fled. They scattered among the nations.
The non-Christian ones stayed and were slaughtered.
Israel's Restoration
11 "In that day
What day? That phrase is used in reference to the End Times throughout prophecy.
I will restore
David's fallen tent.
I will repair its broken places,
restore its ruins,
and build it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22508f)] "
declares the LORD, who will do these things.
Restore Israel, the dwelling place of David.
13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills.
Sounds a lot like the promises in Isaiah, and other places.
Israel HAS been restored. They ARE making the land bloom and produce abundantly.
14 I will bring back my exiled [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22510g)] people Israel;
Bring Israel back. Not replace them.
And it has happened. Israel is restored.
they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.
Not historical, for Israel has been uprooted until now.
So prophetic. Not to Church, but to Israel.
But you spiritualized the meaning right out of this passage by only selecting one verse and trying to force other meaning on it.
Add this the passage I covered before and tell me where I spiritualized away them meaning you presented? Tell my why you did not do the spiritualizing?
You cannot because you did spiritualize it. This passage is addressed to Israel and God says that nation will be restored and will never cease to be a nation again.
We see that as a fact with Israel being the Gate to the NJ, not Church. We see Church as being the foundation of the NJ, not Israel.
TWO heirs, not one, together sharing the inheritence given by Christ.
CoreIssue
04-14-2007, 12:02 PM
bump
Edge, this thread is not an opportunity to reintroduce and repeat arguments not addressing the challenge here.
STAY on thread topic.
You guys have more than enough repeated yourselves, elsewhere. NOW I want answers to me questions that were avoided
And so to Amos chapter 9...
1 I saw the Lord standing by the altar,
Physical Temple in Jerusalem, not the Heavenly one, due to what is said next, which he woud NOT do to the Heavenly.
and he said:
"Strike the tops of the pillars
so that the thresholds shake.
Bring them down on the heads of all the people;
those who are left I will kill with the sword.
Not one will get away,
none will escape.
2 Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22498a)]
from there my hand will take them.
Though they climb up to the heavens,
from there I will bring them down.
3 Though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
there I will hunt them down and seize them.
Though they hide from me at the bottom of the sea,
there I will command the serpent to bite them.
4 Though they are driven into exile by their enemies,
there I will command the sword to slay them.
I will fix my eyes upon them
for evil and not for good." 5 The Lord, the LORD Almighty,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
and all who live in it mourn—
the whole land rises like the Nile,
then sinks like the river of Egypt-
Happened in 70AD. The Romans piled a mountain of heads outside the gates of Jerusalem. Who didn't die was hauled off in slavery.
Agreed.
6 he who builds his lofty palace [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502b)] in the heavens
and sets its foundation [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502c)] on the earth,
who calls for the waters of the sea
and pours them out over the face of the land—
the LORD is his name.
Strongly sets the authority of God to do this.
Agreed.
7 "Are not you Israelites
Not talking to Gentiles here. Talking to Jews.
Indeed.
the same to me as the Cu****es [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503d)] ?"
declares the LORD .
"Did I not bring Israel up from Egypt,
the Philistines from Caphtor [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503e)]
and the Arameans from Kir?
8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD
are on the sinful kingdom.
I will destroy it
from the face of the earth—
Happened.
Yep.
yet I will not totally destroy
the house of Jacob,"
declares the LORD.
9 "For I will give the command,
and I will shake the house of Israel
among all the nations
as grain is shaken in a sieve,
and not a pebble will reach the ground.
Israel was scattered in 70 AD.
Indeed.
10 All the sinners among my people
will die by the sword,
all those who say,
'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'
The Christian Jews fled. They scattered among the nations.
The non-Christian ones stayed and were slaughtered.
Indeed.
Israel's Restoration
11 "In that day
What day? That phrase is used in reference to the End Times throughout prophecy.
Be specific.
I will restore
David's fallen tent.
I will repair its broken places,
restore its ruins,
and build it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22508f)] "
declares the LORD, who will do these things.
Restore Israel, the dwelling place of David.
Matthew Henry states it thus;
That in the Messiah the kingdom of David shall be restored (v. 11); the tabernacle of David it is called, that is, his house and family, which, though great and fixed, yet, in comparison with the kingdom of heaven, was movable as a tabernacle.
The church militant, in its present state, dwelling as in shepherds’ tents to feed, as in soldiers’ tents to fight, is the tabernacle of David. God’s tabernacle is called the tabernacle of David because David desired and chose to dwell in God’s tabernacle for ever, Ps. 61:4.
1. These tabernacles had fallen an gone to decay, the royal family was so impoverished, its power abridged, its honour stained, and laid in the dust; for many of that race degenerated, and in the captivity it lost the imperial dignity. Sore breaches were made upon it, and at length it was laid in ruins. So it was with the church of the Jews; in the latter days of it its glory departed; it was like a tabernacle broken down and brought to ruin, in respect both of purity and of prosperity.
2. By Jesus Christ these tabernacles were raised and rebuilt. In him God’s covenant with David had its accomplishment; and the glory of that house, which was not only sullied, but quite sunk, revived again; the breaches of it were closed and its ruins raised up, as in the days of old; nay, the spiritual glory of the family of Christ far exceeded the temporal glory of the family of David when it was at its height.
In him also God’s covenant with Israel had its accomplishment, [and in the gospel-church the tabernacle of God was set up among men again, and raised up out of the ruins of the Jewish state. This is quoted in the first council at Jerusalem as referring to the calling in of the Gentiles and God’s taking out of them a people for his name. Note, While the world stands God will have a church in it, and, if it be fallen down in one place and among one people, it shall be raised up elsewhere.
13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills.
Sounds a lot like the promises in Isaiah, and other places.
Israel HAS been restored. They ARE making the land bloom and produce abundantly.
Is that what God's promise of abundance is referring to? Be specific in quoting your references please, chapter and verse.
Matthew Henry puts it much better than I ever could;
That in the kingdom of the Messiah there shall be great plenty, an abundance of all good things that the country produces (v. 13): The ploughman shall overtake the reaper, that is, there shall be such a plentiful harvest every year, and so much corn to be gathered in, that it shall last all summer, even till autumn, when it is time to begin to plough again; and in like manner the vintage shall continue till seed-time, and there shall be such abundance of grapes that even the mountains shall drop new wine into the vessels of the grape-gatherers, and the hills that were dry and barren shall be moistened and shall melt with the fatness or mellowness (as we call it) of the soil. Compare this with Joel 2:24, and 3:18. This must certainly be understood of the abundance of spiritual blessings in heavenly things, which all those are, and shall be, blessed with, who are in sincerity added to Christ and his church; they shall be abundantly replenished with the goodness of God’s house, with the graces and comforts of his Spirit; they shall have bread, the bread of life, to strengthen their hearts, and the wine of divine consolations to make them glad-meat indeed and drink indeed—all the benefit that comes to the souls of men from the word and Spirit of God. These had been long confined to the vineyard of the Jewish church; divine revelation, and the power that attended it, were to be found only within that enclosure; but in gospel-times the mountains and hills of the Gentile world shall be enriched with these privileges by the gospel of Christ preached, and professed, and received in the power of it. When great multitudes were converted to the faith of Christ, and nations were born at once, when the preachers of the gospel were always caused to triumph in the success of their preaching, then the ploughman overtook the reaper; and when, the Gentile churches were enriched in all utterance, and in all knowledge, and all manner of spiritual gifts (1 Co. 1:5), then the mountains dropped sweet wine.
14 I will bring back my exiled [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22510g)] people Israel;
Bring Israel back. Not replace them.
And it has happened. Israel is restored.
Restored? What about being restored to God in righteousness through Christ?
Isn't that after all what Biblical restoration is all about?
They captured Jerusalem, then had to give control of the choicest parts to their enemies. They captured Sinai and had to give it back up entirely. They occupied southern Lebanon, and had to leave entirely without even gaining any lasting security. They developed parts of Gaza, and had to bulldoze their own settlements and leave Gaza entirely. They have the Golan Heights, and will have to leave that soon. They settled in parts of the West Bank and already know they will have to leave that, too. Are you seriously suggesting that Israel is restored?
they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.
Not historical, for Israel has been uprooted until now.
So prophetic. Not to Church, but to Israel.
Or, is it more as Matthew Henry states...
That the kingdom of the Messiah shall take such deep rooting in the world as never to be rooted out of it (v. 15): I will plant them upon their land. God’s spiritual Isral shall be planted by the right hand of God himself upon the land assigned them, and they shall no more be pulled up out of it, as the old Jewish church was.
God will preserve them from throwing themselves out of it by a total apostasy, and will preserve them from being thrown out of it by malice of their enemies; the church may be corrupted, but shall not quite forsake God, may be persecuted, but shall not quite be forsaken of God, so that the gates of hell, neither with their temptations nor with their terrors, shall prevail against it. Two things secure the perpetuity of the church:—1. God’s grants to it: It is the land which I have given them; and God will confirm and maintain his own grants. The part he has given to his people is that good part which shall never be taken from them; he will not revoke his grant, and all the powers of earth and hell shall not invalidate it. 2. Its interest in him: He is the Lord thy God, who has said it, and will make it good, thine, O Israel! who shall reign for ever as thine unto all generations. And because he lives the church shall live also.
But you spiritualized the meaning right out of this passage by only selecting one verse and trying to force other meaning on it.
Add this the passage I covered before and tell me where I spiritualized away them meaning you presented? Tell my why you did not do the spiritualizing?
You cannot because you did spiritualize it. This passage is addressed to Israel and God says that nation will be restored and will never cease to be a nation again.
We see that as a fact with Israel being the Gate to the NJ, not Church. We see Church as being the foundation of the NJ, not Israel.
TWO heirs, not one, together sharing the inheritence given by Christ.
In the New Testament, we are taught that Jerusalem is now the ‘heavenly Jerusalem’. For this reason, the writer to the Hebrews is able to say to new covenant believers: ‘But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven’ (12:22—23).
This is also the reason the Apostle John can report the following vision of the heavenly Jerusalem as it will be at the close of the history of redemption: ‘And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them” (Rev. 21:1—3).
These kinds of passages describe for us the fulfilment of all that the Jerusalem of the old covenant typified and foreshadowed. They confirm the pattern of biblical typology: the literal Jerusalem of the old covenant is typical of the new covenant city of God, the church.
The dwelling of the Lord in the midst of his people, the presence of the temple sanctuary, the throne of David — all of these find their fulfilment and reality in the new covenant blessing and consummation witnessed by the Apostle John in his vision on the isle of Patmos.
Conclusion
The dispensationalist claim regarding a literal interpretation of the Scriptures is really the product of its insistence upon a radical separation between Israel, God’s earthly people, and the church, God’s spiritual people. Without this undergirding assumption — that God has these two distinct peoples — there is no reason to deny the fulfilment of old covenant promises in the new covenant realities. Nor is there any longer reason to avoid the implications of biblical typology for the dispensationalist system.
Perhaps the most telling evidence against the dispensationalist hermeneutic is to be found in the book of Hebrews. The message of the book of Hebrews is, if I may speak anachronistically, a compelling rebuttal of Dispensationalism. Whereas the book of Hebrews is one sustained argument for the finality, richness and completion of all of the Lord’s covenant words and works in the new covenant that is in Christ, Dispensationalism wants to preserve the old arrangements intact for Israel, arrangements which will be reinstituted in the period of the millennial kingdom. However, this would be tantamount to going back to what has been surpassed in the new covenant in Christ, reverting to arrangements that have been rendered obsolete and superfluous because their reality has been realised in the provisions of the new covenant. The Mediator of this new covenant, Christ, is the fulfilment of all the promises of the Lord to his people. Thus, to the writer to the Hebrews, any reversion to the old covenant types and ceremonies would be an unacceptable departure from the realities of the new covenant in preference for the shadows of the old.
Though it may seem too severe to some, no other judgement is permitted us respecting the system of biblical interpretation known as Dispensationalism: it represents a continued attachment to the shadows and ceremonies of the old covenant dispensation and also a failure to appreciate properly the finality of the new covenant. Its doctrine of a literal hermeneutic proves not to be literal in the proper sense of the term. Rather than reading the New Testament ‘according to the letter’, Dispensationalism reads the New Testament through the lens of its insistence upon a radical separation between Israel and the church. So, if you wish to ban me for speaking truth according to the gospel of Jesus Christ, his finished work of the cross and fulfilment of the promises, go ahead (If you do, I'll go and sit in the corner with my beloved brother in Christ; Ole' Matt Henry!):tiphat:
Do as you wish.
CoreIssue
04-14-2007, 04:30 PM
Administrator's Warning:http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/mod.gifEdge, this thread is not an opportunity to reintroduce and repeat arguments not addressing the challenge here.
STAY on thread topic.
You guys have more than enough repeated yourselves, elsewhere. NOW I want answers to me questions that were avoided
Quote:
And so to Amos chapter 9...
Thank you!
Quote:
Quote:
1 I saw the Lord standing by the altar,
Physical Temple in Jerusalem, not the Heavenly one, due to what is said next, which he woud NOT do to the Heavenly.
and he said:
"Strike the tops of the pillars
so that the thresholds shake.
Bring them down on the heads of all the people;
those who are left I will kill with the sword.
Not one will get away,
none will escape.
2 Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22498a)]
from there my hand will take them.
Though they climb up to the heavens,
from there I will bring them down.
3 Though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
there I will hunt them down and seize them.
Though they hide from me at the bottom of the sea,
there I will command the serpent to bite them.
4 Though they are driven into exile by their enemies,
there I will command the sword to slay them.
I will fix my eyes upon them
for evil and not for good." 5 The Lord, the LORD Almighty,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
and all who live in it mourn—
the whole land rises like the Nile,
then sinks like the river of Egypt-
Happened in 70AD. The Romans piled a mountain of heads outside the gates of Jerusalem. Who didn't die was hauled off in slavery.
Agreed.
OK.
But you have now departed from Amillennialism. They spiritualize this into being the cross.
Quote:
Quote:
6 he who builds his lofty palace in the heavens
and sets its foundation [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502c)] on the earth,
who calls for the waters of the sea
and pours them out over the face of the land—
the LORD is his name.
Strongly sets the authority of God to do this.
Agreed.
OK.
Quote:
Quote:
7 "Are not you Israelites
Not talking to Gentiles here. Talking to Jews.
Indeed.
OK
Quote:
Quote:
the same to me as the Cu****es [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503d)] ?"
declares the LORD .
"Did I not bring Israel up from Egypt,
the Philistines from Caphtor [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503e)]
and the Arameans from Kir?
8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD
are on the sinful kingdom.
I will destroy it
from the face of the earth—
Happened.
Yep.
OK.
Quote:
Quote:
yet I will not totally destroy
the house of Jacob,"
declares the LORD.
9 "For I will give the command,
and I will shake the house of Israel
among all the nations
as grain is shaken in a sieve,
and not a pebble will reach the ground.
Israel was scattered in 70 AD.
Indeed.
Therefore not destroyed, remained distinct and separate from Gentiles as a people, physically.
And ties into the restoration of Isael prophecies. Which is definitely not Amillennialism.
Quote:
Quote:
10 All the sinners among my people
will die by the sword,
all those who say,
'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'
The Christian Jews fled. They scattered among the nations.
The non-Christian ones stayed and were slaughtered.
Indeed.
And the Christian Jews remained Jews and the Gentiles remained Gentiles.
Quote:
Quote:
Israel's Restoration
11 "In that day
What day? That phrase is used in reference to the End Times throughout prophecy.
Be specific.
Dealt with in the rest of the passage, plus a fairly good general reading can be found here. (http://www.ldolphin.org/vdh.html)
Note it points out that no OT prophetic solid promises would be voided, it says those promises will endure until fuliflled.
The Isaiah and Zech passages, as posted in the challenges, are examples of what will be fulfilled, literally, not spiritually.
Quote:
Quote:
I will restore
David's fallen tent.
I will repair its broken places,
restore its ruins,
and build it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22508f)] "
declares the LORD, who will do these things.
Restore Israel, the dwelling place of David.
Quote:
Matthew Henry states it thus;
That in the Messiah the kingdom of David shall be restored (v. 11); the tabernacle of David it is called, that is, his house and family, which, though great and fixed,
He admits House/tent means the people of the family and kingdom of David. PHYSICAL family, not spiritual.
Quote:
yet, in comparison with the kingdom of heaven,
This introduces issued NOT in the passage. Isaiah was NOT talking about the kingdom of God, but the Kingdom of Israel.
No where in this passage is this subject introduced. Neither does the NT verses dealing with this area speak of spiritual issues.
NEVER is there a reference to a spiritual Israel in the NT. Israel is a national issue.
Do not confuse spiritual Jew statements with meaning national Israel. The NT authors never confused or equated them. You should not either.
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was movable as a tabernacle.
Church is NOT in this passage anywhere.
Stay on topic.
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The church militant, in its present state, dwelling as in shepherds’ tents to feed, as in soldiers’ tents to fight, is the tabernacle of David. God’s tabernacle is called the tabernacle of David because David desired and chose to dwell in God’s tabernacle for ever, Ps. 61:4.
Comparison does not make them the same issue. They are not.
There is no reference to Church in this passage. Nor in the NT quote. Period.
This is about Israel being restored.
These tabernacles had fallen an gone to decay, the royal family was so impoverished, its power abridged, its honour stained, and laid in the dust; for many of that race degenerated, and in the captivity it lost the imperial dignity. Sore breaches were made upon it, and at length it was laid in ruins. So it was with the church of the Jews; in the latter days of it its glory departed; it was like a tabernacle broken down and brought to ruin, in respect both of purity and of prosperity.
Not about Church. Never mentioned.
Christ did NOT restore the nation of Israel. He came as Messiah, not King.
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1.
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2. By Jesus Christ these tabernacles were raised and rebuilt.
And now the false claim.
Israel was not restored. Totally spiritualized and false claim that renders every OT prophecy and Revelation a lie.
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In him God’s covenant with David had its accomplishment;
The Davidic Covenant was about being king of Israel.
Christ is the King and High Priest of Gentiles via Melchezidek, the Priest King of God.
A man without lineage.
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and the glory of that house,
A House which Gentiles are not members of.
I defy you to ever show a reference putting a Gentile in the lineage of David.
The future New Covenant is the Houses of Judah and Israel.
Revelation goes back to Israel, since it is the 70th Week of Daniel.
You are spiritualizing the meanings here.
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which was not only sullied, but quite sunk, revived again; the breaches of it were closed and its ruins raised up, as in the days of old; nay, the spiritual glory of the family of Christ far exceeded the temporal glory of the family of David when it was at its height.
And yet the future glory of Israel will be greater than the OT glory, with Christ on David's throne and in the Temple as the High Priest.
Quote:
In him also God’s covenant with Israel had its accomplishment,
FALSE!
The Mosaic Covenant was nullified! The New Covenant is future!
The Abrahamic Covenant was NEVER fulfilled. The land has never been fully occupied.
This is rampant spiritualization and proving my point you guys cannot read literally.
It forces you to spiritualize Isaiah, Ezekiel, Revelation, Zechariah and all the rest.
And you cannot provide any justification for doing so.
God promised Israel restoration. God promised Abraham fulfillement of the land via his physical offspring.
Every one of tbose promises are broken in Amillennialism.
taking out of them a people for his name.[/I] Note, While the world stands God will have a church in it, and, if it be fallen down in one place and among one people, it shall be raised up elsewhere.
Not a single verse proving these claims.
And absolutely not to be found in in the Amos passage.
You are making God a liar by saying he made them these promised than gave them to Gentiles.
He spiritualized the verses. He did not deal with them literally.
Quote:
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13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills.
[B]Sounds a lot like the promises in Isaiah, and other places.
Israel HAS been restored. They ARE making the land bloom and produce abundantly.
Is that what God's promise of abundance is referring to? Be specific in quoting your references please, chapter and verse.
Matthew Henry puts it much better than I ever could;
That in the kingdom of the Messiah there shall be great plenty, an abundance of all good things that the country produces (v. 13): The ploughman shall overtake the reaper, that is, there shall be such a plentiful harvest every year, and so much corn to be gathered in, that it shall last all summer, even till autumn, when it is time to begin to plough again; and in like manner the vintage shall continue till seed-time, and there shall be such abundance of grapes that even the mountains shall drop new wine into the vessels of the grape-gatherers, and the hills that were dry and barren shall be moistened and shall melt with the fatness or mellowness (as we call it) of the soil. Compare this with Joel 2:24, and 3:18. This must certainly be understood of the abundance of spiritual blessings in heavenly things, which all those are, and shall be, blessed with, who are in sincerity added to Christ and his church; they shall be abundantly replenished with the goodness of God’s house, with the graces and comforts of his Spirit; they shall have bread, the bread of life, to strengthen their hearts, and the wine of divine consolations to make them glad-meat indeed and drink indeed—all the benefit that comes to the souls of men from the word and Spirit of God. These had been long confined to the vineyard of the Jewish church; divine revelation, and the power that attended it, were to be found only within that enclosure; but in gospel-times the mountains and hills of the Gentile world shall be enriched with these privileges by the gospel of Christ preached, and professed, and received in the power of it. When great multitudes were converted to the faith of Christ, and nations were born at once, when the preachers of the gospel were always caused to triumph in the success of their preaching, then the ploughman overtook the reaper; and when, the Gentile churches were enriched in all utterance, and in all knowledge, and all manner of spiritual gifts (1 Co. 1:5), then the mountains dropped sweet wine.
Total spiritualization of the passage. Not a grain of evidence to back it.
Just a blind attempt to equate Church to being Israel.
I want to see how you try to explain away the issues of birth, death and so in Isaiah 65 with this line of thinking.
Or deal with the physical Temple, 12 tribes and so on, in Revelation. Even further, the treaty in Daniel's 70th Week.
No. You totally abandoned word meanings and rules of grammar in this passage.
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14 I will bring back my exiled [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22510g)] people Israel;
Bring Israel back. Not replace them.
And it has happened. Israel is restored.
Restored? What about being restored to God in righteousness through Christ?
And here you fall upon your own sword.
It says bring back exiled Israel. Not a single mention of Gentiles.
You cannot call Gentiles exiled, since they were never Israel to be exiled.
And NO ONE is restored to God. We begin alienated from God due to sin. We come to God and are united with him, not restored.
To be restored you have to be there, be removed, and then be brought back.
The meaning of this simple word defeats your claims.
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Isn't that after all what Biblical restoration is all about?
No. It is not about restoration. It is about bringing people from death to life.
We are born-again spiritually, not restored. We are first born by water, the mother, into a sinful life that is spiritual death.
Not in relation, fall from relationship and the restored.
Get the meaning of that word. To be restored one HAS to have been there and then be returned. We are never there until born-again.
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They captured Jerusalem, then had to give control of the choicest parts to their enemies. They captured Sinai and had to give it back up entirely. They occupied southern Lebanon, and had to leave entirely without even gaining any lasting security. They developed parts of Gaza, and had to bulldoze their own settlements and leave Gaza entirely. They have the Golan Heights, and will have to leave that soon. They settled in parts of the West Bank and already know they will have to leave that, too. Are you seriously suggesting that Israel is restored?
Not fully. Nor has it ever been in the full land it was to occupy, yet.
But it was a nation. Then was not a nation. And now is a nation, again.
So, retored as a nation? Absolutely!
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they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.
Not historical, for Israel has been uprooted until now.
So prophetic. Not to Church, but to Israel.
Or, is it more as Matthew Henry states...
That the kingdom of the Messiah
This argument begins and dies with this statement.
We are not talking the Kingdom of Christ. We are talking the Kingdom of Israel.
If you do not understand the difference you will never understand what is going on.
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shall take such deep rooting in the world as never to be rooted out of it (v. 15): I will plant them upon their land. God’s spiritual Israel
I defy you to post a single verse ever using the term spiritual Israel. Or one that says God's Kingdom is called Israel.
It is never said because they are two very different issues.
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shall be planted by the right hand of God himself upon the land assigned them, and they shall no more be pulled up out of it, as the old Jewish church was.
What Jewish Church? There has never been a 'Jewish Church.'
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God will preserve them from throwing themselves out of it by a total apostasy, and will preserve them from being thrown out of it by malice of their enemies; the church may be corrupted, but shall not quite forsake God, may be persecuted, but shall not quite be forsaken of God, so that the gates of hell, neither with their temptations nor with their terrors, shall prevail against it. Two things secure the perpetuity of the church:—1. God’s grants to it: It is the land which I have given them; and God will confirm and maintain his own grants. The part he has given to his people is that good part which shall never be taken from them; he will not revoke his grant, and all the powers of earth and hell shall not invalidate it. 2. Its interest in him: He is the Lord thy God, who has said it, and will make it good, thine, O Israel! who shall reign for ever as thine unto all generations. And because he lives the church shall live also.
Pure spiritualized claims.
Not when he starts this he does what all Amills and such do? They just make claims with no Biblical backing.
Israel is never called Church. Church is never called Israel.
ONE Body of Christ composed of TWO heirs, Church and Israel. TWO distinct covenant bodies.
Israel is the Wife of God, as you see clearly in the 24 Elders before the Throne of God.
Church is the Bride of Christ, as you see clearly with the Church standing with Christ.
12 Gates of the NJ are Israel. 12 Foundations are Church. Two distinct functions and meanings united into one unity.
Which goes back to TWO heirs, not ONE.
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But you spiritualized the meaning right out of this passage by only selecting one verse and trying to force other meaning on it.
Add this the passage I covered before and tell me where I spiritualized away them meaning you presented? Tell my why you did not do the spiritualizing?
You cannot because you did spiritualize it. This passage is addressed to Israel and God says that nation will be restored and will never cease to be a nation again.
We see that as a fact with Israel being the Gate to the NJ, not Church. We see Church as being the foundation of the NJ, not Israel.
TWO heirs, not one, together sharing the inheritence given by Christ.
In the New Testament, we are taught that Jerusalem is now the ‘heavenly Jerusalem’. For this reason, the writer to the Hebrews is able to say to new covenant believers: ‘But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven’ (12:22—23).
Which totally disregards the porphecies and realities of the earthly Jerusalem, with which God is not finished.
Again, you do not see the physical aspects of God's words and prophecies.
Nor does this make Gentiles Israel.
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This is also the reason the Apostle John can report the following vision of the heavenly Jerusalem as it will be at the close of the history of redemption: ‘And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them” (Rev. 21:1—3).
Which happens AFTER the physical reign of Christ on the earth in the earthly Jerusalem with the Stone Temple.
Another stumbling block for you is the fact that there is NO Temple in the NJ but in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation there IS a stone Temple.
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These kinds of passages describe for us the fulfilment of all that the Jerusalem of the old covenant typified and foreshadowed. They confirm the pattern of biblical typology: the literal Jerusalem of the old covenant is typical of the new covenant city of God, the church.
False and totally spiritualized.
Church is not a city.
We are not in the New Covenant. Even in Hebrews Paul states it in FUTURE tense.
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The dwelling of the Lord in the midst of his people, the presence of the temple sanctuary, the throne of David — all of these find their fulfilment and reality in the new covenant blessing and consummation witnessed by the Apostle John in his vision on the isle of Patmos.
Nothing but spiritualized declarations without any proof offered.
Just claims.
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Conclusion
The dispensationalist claim regarding a literal interpretation of the Scriptures is really the product of its insistence upon a radical separation between Israel, God’s earthly people, and the church, God’s spiritual people. Without this undergirding assumption — that God has these two distinct peoples — there is no reason to deny the fulfilment of old covenant promises in the new covenant realities. Nor is there any longer reason to avoid the implications of biblical typology for the dispensationalist system.
So, he says throw out grammar, word meaning and all else. Just make it say what you want.
Even though there is no proof.
And there is your downfall. You cannot prove any of this.
Never is Church called Israel or Israel Church. You have to add words to verses to try to make it say that.
You have to spiritualize meanings, which immediately makes it opinion, not fact.
While you are entitled to do this, you are not entitled to present it as fact with offering proof.
But all your so-called proofs depend on accepting spiritualized meanings and adding words not in verses to the verses.
Litealists don't have the problem. We read according to grammar and word meaning. There are no contradictions. There is harmony and no need to explain away any verse anywhere.
So, when Amills say 'what about this NT verse' they do so spiritualizing it, as if that makes it fact.
We don't. we take it literally.
Yes, spiritually speaking there is no male, female, Jew or Gentile. But that is not physical reality, where there most assuredly are.
Yes, we are all blessed via Abraham, spiritually. But that has nothing to do with the eternal covenant via his genetic descendents.
Yes, Christ is our God, his spirit fully God.
But our salvation comes from his flesh sacrifice. His humanity.
He is our brother, king, savior and such via his flesh, not his Godhood.
He is our Lord and God via his divine spirit, not his flesh.
He is both by being God incarnate in the flesh.
There are spiritual realities. There are flesh realities. And they are interconnected.
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Perhaps the most telling evidence against the dispensationalist hermeneutic is to be found in the book of Hebrews. The message of the book of Hebrews is, if I may speak anachronistically, a compelling rebuttal of Dispensationalism. Whereas the book of Hebrews is one sustained argument for the finality, richness and completion of all of the Lord’s covenant words and works in the new covenant that is in Christ, Dispensationalism wants to preserve the old arrangements intact for Israel, arrangements which will be reinstituted in the period of the millennial kingdom. However, this would be tantamount to going back to what has been surpassed in the new covenant in Christ, reverting to arrangements that have been rendered obsolete and superfluous because their reality has been realised in the provisions of the new covenant. The Mediator of this new covenant, Christ, is the fulfilment of all the promises of the Lord to his people. Thus, to the writer to the Hebrews, any reversion to the old covenant types and ceremonies would be an unacceptable departure from the realities of the new covenant in preference for the shadows of the old.
Bogus argument.
Never is the New Covenant called the Mosaic Covenant restored.
[quote]Though it may seem too severe to some, no other judgement is permitted us respecting the system of biblical interpretation known as Dispensationalism: it represents a continued attachment to the shadows and ceremonies of the old covenant dispensation and also a failure to appreciate properly the finality of the new covenant. Its doctrine of a literal hermeneutic proves not to be literal in the proper sense of the term. Rather than reading the New Testament ‘according to the letter’, Dispensationalism reads the New Testament through the lens of its insistence upon a radical separation between Israel and the church. So, if you wish to ban me for speaking truth according to the gospel of Jesus Christ, his finished work of the cross and fulfilment of the promises, go ahead (If you do, I'll go and sit in the corner with my beloved brother in Christ; Ole' Matt Henry!):tiphat:
Do as you wish.
But what is getting you banned was creating another membership to bring on another defender of Amillennialismm since you expected to get banned for not answering my questions, but continuing to spiritualize.
Those into false doctrine pull these kinds of antics all the time. Very telling about their spiritual health.
And this kind of ban is permanent. We don't tolerate it.
So, good by Edge/stunt 1o1. Even your new name gives your game away. A basic stunt.
Up to this point Amos has given us 5 visions. The first was grasshoppers/locusts, the second was fire, the third was a plumb line, the fourt was a basket of ripe fruit, and now in Amos 9 we have the fifth is the Lord standing by the altar.
1 I saw the Lord standing by the altar,
Now, no where does it say what altar the Lord was standing by but my opinion is that it was the altar at Bethel against which certain judgements had already been announced. The altar at Bethel has already been mentioned so when in Amos 9 it says "the altar" we can assume it is "the altar" at bethel.
Amos 3:14
"On the day I punish Israel for her sins, I will destroy the altars of Bethel; the horns of the altar will be cut off and fall to the ground.
Amos 3:13-15 (in Context)
Amos 4:4
"Go to Bethel and sin; go to Gilgal and sin yet more. Bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every three years.
Amos 5:5
do not seek Bethel, do not go to Gilgal, do not journey to Beersheba. For Gilgal will surely go into exile, and Bethel will be reduced to nothing. "
Amos 5:6
Seek the LORD and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire; it will devour, and Bethel will have no one to quench it.
Amos 7:10
[ Amos and Amaziah ] Then Amaziah the priest of Bethel sent a message to Jeroboam king of Israel: "Amos is raising a conspiracy against you in the very heart of Israel. The land cannot bear all his words.
Amos 7:13
Don't prophesy anymore at Bethel, because this is the king's sanctuary and the temple of the kingdom."
************************************************** *
From verses 1B to the end of verse 10 we see the process of sifting the sinners from His(God's) true people. This does not have to be the event of 70AD but during the long 400 year period when God was otherwise silent prior to John the Baptist.
The literal view of this would be to not take it out of order and have Israel restored through the coming of the Messiah after 70AD, so we should stay true to the literalism even in the flow of Amos' vision.
************************************************** *
Now we end the chapter with verses 11-15.
This is taken strictly literal by some who hold these last verses as yet future. When it says that God is going to build up the tabernacle of David again. They understand this to be the rebuilt third temple in Jerusalem. It hasn't happened yet but they believe it will happen in the very last days.
This view seems justified, considering the wording of the passage, and if we had nothing in the NT to help us interpret this passage, well we would be compelled to see it that very way. I don't hold that view of this passage. And the reason I don't is because as near as I can tell the Apostles didn't that view of this passage. They quoted it in Acts chapter 15 where a problem had arose in the early church.
The following is clearly said to be fulfilled in the NT so that we can move along with full assurance that the Davidic Covenant has and is being fulfilled in Christ even now in the present kingdom established by the resurrection of Christ and His enthronement.
Amos 9: 11
11 “ On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,”
Says the LORD who does this thing.
(as I have said, pre-mil people think this is endtimes stuff and some even believe this is about the rebuilding of the temple) When Amos wrote this the Temple had not fallen down and besides tabenacle does not equate to temple. The tabernacle of David is in reference to the house of David that was now so corroded that it was now nothing more than a booth. The house of David means the dynasty of David. This is the same type of House God said He would build of David in 2 Sam. 7 and in fact was the case for 20 generations after David. However the house of David did not share the character of David. His descendants, the kings of his dynasty were corrupt, almost every one of them and God had no respect for them. And Amos is actually speaking of this corruption. A fallen house. But He says in the latter days He is going to reestablish the house of David and by that He means the dynasty of David will have a new King worthy of that title. And he mentions the gentiles being subdued by Him.
Let me clarify how the apostles understood this. In acts 15 at the Jerusalem council, the apostles were discussing whether the gentiles who got saved needed to become Jews in order to REALY be saved. In the course of their debate, James spoke up and made a very significant observation.
Acts 15:13 on
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’
What James is saying is that this prophecy, right now, is in the process of fulfillment and the gentiles coming in (in this case Cornilius) is in agreement with the prophets. By Jews and gentile alike this prophecy is reflected and fulfilled in that we are of the kingdom and Jesus' rulership over us.
Every time this fulfillment is applied spiritually to the church. Never do the apostles break rank and say that their is a literal throne of David someday. They always assume that presently the enthronement of Jesus at the right hand of the Father is the fulfillment of that Davidic kingdom promise. To reject what James wrote is simply to reject inspiration. There is no way around it.
CoreIssue
04-15-2007, 12:18 AM
You did exactly what I warned you not to do. You posted a spiritualized statement.
Here are key notes that refute you.
1. Read your own verses from Amos. In chapter 7 God told him to not prophecy about Bethel any more. In chapter 9 he cannot be talking about Bethel because that would violate that command. And he did not say Bethel. So it isn't Bethel, thus must be a future issue.
2. The House of David is not his lineage. It is the people of Israel. READ the chapter. It clearly talks abou the people of Israel as the events unfold. It says they will be restored as a nation. The House of the King IS the nation.
3. No, Christ did not come as king, he came as Messiah. He does not declare he is taking over the earth until the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.
4. Yes, Revelation is a NT books and says the same things about Israel restored and such as the OT authors. Thus the attempt at say the OT must be rewritten or cannot be literally understood is nonsense.
5. All of the events laid out must transpire to be fulfilled. The issues of the destruction were fulfilled in 70 AD. Not before.
6. The House of David is NOT the Temple. NOT the House of God.
7. In Acts the Apostles did NOT say Amos was being fulfilled then. They were reassuring the Jews it would be fulfilled at a future date. READ what the passage says. It says AFTER THIS. After what. After the bringing in of the Gentiles, which is still happening now. As other prophecy says when the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. The restoration of Israel cannot take place until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So Amos is not fulfilled.
There is everyway around your claim. After does not mean during. It means after.
Restoring Israel and distinquishing between Israel and Gentiles, at that time, is not Church.
You can read OT prophecy without needing to redefine its words and meaning by the Gospel. John in Revelation proves that by clearly showing Israel as distinct from Gentiles, again the importance of the Tribes, again the Woman, Israel given prominence, again the Temple at Jerusalem functioning. And more.
You have posted nothing to show Church = Israel and Israel = Church.
And the NT rejects your claim on that score, as well, in many places.
Paul refers to the New Covenant, in Hebrew, in future, not present tense. It is not to the Jews and Gentiles, the Church, but to the HOUSES of Isreal and Judah, which Gentile are not.
Ephesian 3
6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
Gentiles and Israel (NOT Jews) are two distinct groups. EACH is an heir, not joined into being one heir. They SHARE, again meaning two distinct groups.
Every saint, be they Church, Israel or before there were Jews and Gentiles, share in promise of Christ. All are part of the Body of Christ.
But within the Body of Christ there are TWO covenant bodies. Israel (not Jews) and Gentiles.
If your doctrine were correct, Paul would have NEVER said two in one Body. He would simply have said ONE Body and let it go at that.
There is your literal proof you are wrong. Not based on assumptions, but on literal words read by grammar and word definition:
1. Restored AFTER the time of the Gentiles.
2. TWO, not one heirs, in ONE Body of Christ.
3. Revelation fullyin agreement with the OT prophecies, WITHOUT having to spiritualize, rewrite or do anything else to them.
4. God is fully capable of making the OT writing compatible with the NT, without having to say oops or go back and understand it didn't mean what it literally said. Your doctrine diminish God.
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