The true Israel of God

[Ltanner09]

Mt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Verse 15 states there was a fulfilled prophecy about Jesus being called out of Egypt.

That prophecy is found in Hos 11:1

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

"ISRAEL'S" (JACOB'S) SONS ARE ALSO CALLED ISRAEL-ITES (Heirs of Israel)

The Children of Israel went into Egypt

Ex. 1:1 "Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob." And then the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel) are named. These are the literal "children of Israel" (children of Jacob) who went into Egypt.

Israel is called "My son, My firstborn"

Ex 4:21,22 "And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Vs 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, 'Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn. . . "

NOTE: The whole NATION is NOW called "Israel," not just Jacob (Israel).
The nation of Israel is called a "vine."
Ps 80:8 "Thou has brought a vine out of Egypt; thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it."

The nation of Israel is called a "servant."

Isa 41:8 "But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham My friend."

Isa 49:3 "And said unto me, 'Thou art My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Isa 42:1-3 "Behold My servant . . . " This chapter outlines God's original plan for Israel which they failed to follow.

* * * * * Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt."

NOTE: The Nation of "Israel" is called:

1) "My son",
2) a "vine",
3) the "seed of Abraham",
4) God's "servant", and
5) "My son" that God "brought out of Egypt."

Christ:

Matt 26:28 Jesus meets with the 12 apostles and makes a NEW covenant with His OWN blood - a New covenant with a NEW Israel.

Matt 12:15-18 "Behold my servant..." This Old Testament passage applied to Israel, but now it is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

John 15:1 Jesus said, "I am the TRUE VINE.

Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith NOT 'And to seeds, as of many, but as of ONE, and to thy SEED which is Christ."

Jesus is called:

1) "My Son" 2 Peter 1:17
2) The "vine" John 15:1
3) the "seed of Abraham" Gal 3:16
4) "servant" Matt 12:15-18
5) "My Son" God "brought out of Egypt" Matt 2:15

Galatians 3:16, Paul wrote, "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith NOT, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Paul explains that Abraham's seed does not refer to "many," seeds, but to "One, . . . which is Christ." Paul is opening our minds to realize that what originally applied to the nation of Israel is now applied to Jesus Christ. The Messiah is now the "seed." Therefore, Jesus Christ is "Israel!"

As in the Old Testament, the name Israel was first applied to one man - and then to his offspring, so in the New Testament the same principle applies. "The seed" is Christ, and Paul then tells his Gentile converts "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed." Gal 3:29.

So the name "Israel" not only applies to the True Seed, Jesus Christ, but also the believers in Jesus become part of "the seed." The true Christians are now God's Spiritual Israel.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to dismiss the biblical facts of the above, in favor of some man made theory.

[amilltruth]

tanner,

excellent post, and straight from the word of God,
you think core can use the "BIBLE" to refute this? I doubt it cause the bible could not be any clearer on this subject.

"ALL who are of faith, are Abraham's seed"

seriously, how can ANYONE not think that is what the Bible states?

[amilltruth]

you have to wonder, how is this so hard for you to comprehend?


A. There is NO salvation outside of Jesus Christ

1. Only through Christ can men be saved (Acts 4:12)
2. Jesus is the way, the only way (John 14:6)

B. There is no special favor toward physical Israel

1. Lineage means nothing to God (Luke 3:8)

2. What is important is the heart, NOT physical things such as circumcision (Rom 2:28-29)

3. The jews have been as guilty of sin as the gentiles (Rom 3:9-10)

4. The same gospel saves both jew and greek (Rom 1:16)

C. Jews and Gentiles have been brought into ONE BODY

1. reconciled into one body (Eph 2:11-18)

2. The past mystery has been revealed (Eph 3:6)

3. There is only ONE body (Eph 4:4) and that body is the CHURCH (Eph 1:22-23)

D. Equality in the body

1. all were condemned under sin, so that belief could become the standard (Gal 3:22)

2. The Law, was only until the Seed should come (Gal 3:19) and that seed is Christ (Gal 3:16

3. The law preserved people until Christ came and then the law ended (Gal 3:24-25)

4. Now in Christ we are ALL ONE (Gal 3:25-28)

5. Thus, BY BELIEF - not physical lineage - we become the descendants of Araham (Gal 3:29)



why do you want make it so hard core? the NEW testament is crystal clear regarding this.

[CoreIssue]

Matt 26:28 Jesus meets with the 12 apostles and makes a NEW covenant with His OWN blood - a New covenant with a NEW Israel.

Never says New Israel anywhere in the Bible. Ever.

You make a common error. There was not one simplistic covenant with Abraham. It contained many covenants made over a period of time.

Yep, Christ is the promised seed of Abraham. Yep, there is spiritual seed of Abraham. Yep, there is physical seed of Abraham.

You don't know the difference between the physical and the spiritual promises, it is obvious.

The Land Covenant and such has nothing to do with salvation. False argument.

The covenant with Abraham was an eternal covenant. It was not to Israel and could not be negated.

You confuse the Mosaic Covenant with Eternal promises to Abraham. That makes God a liar to say an eternal covenant can be negated.

Look at Genesis 15

4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Physical, not spiritual, descendents.
18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen%2015&version=31#fen-NIV-379d)] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es and Jebusites."
No change of context.

To his physical, not spiritual descendents.

This was an eternal promise to Abraham to be fulfilled via his physical descendents. It was not based upon anyone but Abraham.

Genesis 12

The Call of Abram

1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

2 "I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."
Nation, not nations. No conditions. A flat our guarantee.

And all the peoples of the earth a blessing. Blessing to all, but one great nation.

That land covenant is only to be fulfilled via that one nation.

That covenant will be fulfilled in the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8
8But God found fault with the people and said[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=8&verse=8&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-30085a)]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

When that OT prophecy was made, it was under Israel and Judah. It was promised to Israel and Judah.

Not Gentiles.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30089c)]
Has not happened yet.

Revelation was written about 96AD. No way to make it complete in 70AD.

Israel has never occupied the full land promised to Abraham.

John, in Revelation speaks of the Woman, the 12 Tribes of Israel, the Jews being in the Inner Temple and the Gentiles being in the Outer, for 3.5 years.

None of this has happened, yet, and most assuredly distinquishes between physical Jew and Gentile.

Prophecy says the nation of Israel will be restored. It has been.

Prophecy says the Temple will be rebuilt. They are ready to do so.

Prophecy says the Temple will be defiled Mid 7 years. It has not been yet.

Prophecy says the image of the AC will be brought to life. No such thing has happened yet.

John says Satan will be bound upon Christ's physical return to the earth. Has not happened yet.

On and on, issue after issue, coming true that Amils cannot deal with.

[Ltanner09]

I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

Has not happened yet.

Fulfilled with the Holy Spirit:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Revelation was written about 96AD. No way to make it complete in 70AD.

That's been debated for centuries. There is no clear proof when it was written. Both the early date and the late date have convincing arguements.

Israel has never occupied the full land promised to Abraham.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

I'll address the rest later.

[CoreIssue]

[quote]I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

Has not happened yet.

Fulfilled with the Holy Spirit:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

False.

It says this about ISRAEL. And that has not happened yet.

Revelation was written about 96AD. No way to make it complete in 70AD.

That's been debated for centuries. There is no clear proof when it was written. Both the early date and the late date have convincing arguements.

From the earliest times it has been held he wrote under Domitian. And that puts in around 96 AD.

Preterists and such are the only ones arguing an early date, since they need it for the doctrines.

Israel has never occupied the full land promised to Abraham.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Try again, The land promised to ABRAHAM that would dwelt on has never belonged to Israel in history.
Those lands are laid out in the verses I posted. And they are not what ancient Israel dwelt in, ever.

[Ltanner09]

Prophecy says the nation of Israel will be restored. It has been.

It has? With 98% of those living in Israel rejecting Christ?
No, Core, Israel is restored in Christ, not restored in land.

Prophecy says the Temple will be rebuilt. They are ready to do so.

No such prophecy exists, for a temple made with hands.


1Co*3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co*3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co*6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2Co*6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

John says Satan will be bound upon Christ's physical return to the earth. Has not happened yet.

Which verses are you using to reach the conclusion "physical return".
Christ bound the strong man (Satan) at His FIRST advent:
Mt*12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Mr*3:27
No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.


On and on, issue after issue, coming true that Amils cannot deal with.

On and on where pre mill disregards clear NT writings in favor of man made doctrines.

Pre mill teaches a rebuilt temple will somehow be called a "temple of God", even though they reject Christ (and in doing so reject the One who sent Christ).

Lu 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
.

[Ltanner09]

Originally Posted by Ltanner09
Quote:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

Has not happened yet.

I replied:
Fulfilled with the Holy Spirit:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Core replied:
False.

It says this about ISRAEL. And that has not happened yet.

We are joint heirs with Israel and receive their promises.
There is onepeople of God,not 2 or 3.



Core wrote:
Revelation was written about 96AD. No way to make it complete in 70AD.

I replied:
That's been debated for centuries. There is no clear proof when it was written. Both the early date and the late date have convincing arguements.

Core replied:
From the earliest times it has been held he wrote under Domitian. And that puts in around 96 AD.

Preterists and such are the only ones arguing an early date, since they need it for the doctrines.

You are reaching conclusions you NEED to reach. Anyone honestly looking for definitive proof on when Revelation was written would have to admit there simply is inconclusive proof on the date of authorship.

Core wrote:
Israel has never occupied the full land promised to Abraham.

I replied:
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Core replied:
Try again, The land promised to ABRAHAM that would dwelt on has never belonged to Israel in history.
Those lands are laid out in the verses I posted. And they are not what ancient Israel dwelt in, ever.

Then your arguement is with scripture:

THE LAND PROMISE WAS FULFILLED...!
1. As stated by Joshua
a. God gave the land - Josh 21:43
b. Israel possessed the land - Josh 21:43
c. Israel lived in the land - Josh 21:43-44
d. "not a word failed...all came to pass" - Josh 21:45; cf.
23:14
2. As implied by the cities of refuge
a. Six cities were promised, 3 on each side of the Jordan - Num
35:9-15
b. Three were given in the trans-Jordan, three more promised if
God kept His promise to give Israel all the land promised to
their fathers - Deu 19:7-9
c. Six cities were given; so God must have kept His promise!
- Josh 20:7-9
3. As experienced during the reign of Solomon
a. The extent of the land promised described to Abram - Gen
15:8
b. The extent of the land ruled over by Solomon - 1 Kin 4:21
c. God's promise regarding the land had been fulfilled!
4. As praised by the Levites upon their return from Babylonian
captivity
a. God made a covenant with Abraham concerning the land - Neh
9:7
b. God performed His words - Neh 9:8,23-25

5. As praised by the Psalmist
a. God remembered His promise to Abraham - Psa 105:42
b. He gave His descendants the land - Psa 105:43-45
-- Without question God fulfilled the promise to give Israel the
land!

Literally, God said He did.

[CoreIssue]

[quote]Prophecy says the nation of Israel will be restored. It has been.

It has? With 98% of those living in Israel rejecting Christ?
No, Core, Israel is restored in Christ, not restored in land.

Who are you to set demands? God said he will restore it and he has restored it.

It will not be fully restored until the Second Coming.

Prophecy says the Temple will be rebuilt. They are ready to do so.

No such prophecy exists, for a temple made with hands.

Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zech, Daniel, Revelation and more refute you.

NOTHING in those prophetic books, on the Trib and MK issues have been fulfilled yet.

Temple is in every one of them. Physical, not spiritual.

1Co*3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Church Age. Nothing to do with the Trib or MK.

1Co*3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Church Age.

1Co*6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Church Age.

2Co*6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Church Age.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Church Age.

No such thing is said in Revelation, anywhere.

John says Satan will be bound upon Christ's physical return to the earth. Has not happened yet.

Which verses are you using to reach the conclusion "physical return".

Chapter 19 on.

Christ bound the strong man (Satan) at His FIRST advent:
Mt*12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Try reading in context.

It is speaking of driving out demons, not binding Satan.

Mr*3:27
No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Same issue, different book.

On and on, issue after issue, coming true that Amils cannot deal with.

On and on where pre mill disregards clear NT writings in favor of man made doctrines.

Reading out of context proves nothing.

You dismiss Ezekiel, deny the statements of Isaiah, ignore Israel in Revelation and attempt to get around it all by spiritualizing away every issue that disagrees with you.

NONE of the issues of Revelation have happened yet.

No Two Witnesses, no 2/3 of the world's population dying and so on.

And no, arguing your perceptions of what God will and will not do is not an aswer to what the Bible says he will do.
Pre mill teaches a rebuilt temple will somehow be called a "temple of God", even though they reject Christ (and in doing so reject the One who sent Christ).
Again, your demands do not agree with the reality stated in Isaiah, Zech, Daniel, Revelation and other places.

What happened in history does not determine what will happen in the future.
Lu 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Which will change in the future.

The Bible says Israel will be restored. And it will love God.

[amilltruth]

Yep, Christ is the promised seed of Abraham. Yep, there is spiritual seed of Abraham. Yep, there is physical seed of Abraham.


and who are the spiritual seed core?????

and to which were the promises made to???? (Gal 3:16,29)

Try again, The land promised to ABRAHAM that would dwelt on has never belonged to Israel in history.
Those lands are laid out in the verses I posted. And they are not what ancient Israel dwelt in, ever.

it is unbelievable how you as a christian can deny the word of GOd so easy, to the ones following these threads.

CoreIssue says the land has "NEVER" been owned by Israel,

the BIBLE says;
"and the Lord gave unto Israel, ALL (let me repeat) ALL the land which he sware to give unto thier fathers: AND THEY POSSESSED IT, AND DWELT THERIN."

Joshua 21:43-45
"THERE FAILED NOT OUGHT OF ANY GOOD THING WHICH THE LORD HAD SPOKEN UNTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, ALL CAME TO PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Joshua 21:45

now who are you going to believe????

the bible or coreissue?

[amilltruth]

Temple is in every one of them. Physical, not spiritual

how do you know this core?? to fit your belief, you still have to address the glaring contradiction of sacrifices AFTER the cross, being acceptable to God.

[CoreIssue]

We are joint heirs with Israel and receive their promises.
There is onepeople of God,not 2 or 3.

Joint means TWO, not ONE.
You are reaching conclusions you NEED to reach. Anyone honestly looking for definitive proof on when Revelation was written would have to admit there simply is inconclusive proof on the date of authorship.
History says 96 AD. Preterists and such want to change that.

Other related historical issues also support 96 AD.

There is no support for pre 70 AD.

Then your arguement is with scripture:

Literally, God said He did.

No, my argument is with your erroneous apolication of scripture.

God promised Abraham ALL the land from the Euphrates to the River or Egypt.

Never has Israel occupied all that land.

Yes, God made land promises to forefathers of Israel, and kept it. But those lands did not include all promised to Abraham. And never were all the inhabitants driven out, as God said they would be.

Again, you confuse issues of Israel as equaling issues of Abraham. The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic, in example, are not the same covenants.

[amilltruth]

It is speaking of driving out demons, not binding Satan

and core how did Jesus say why he was able to cast out demons????

[amilltruth]

Joint means TWO, not ONE.


joint hier means tow peoples recieve the SAME INHERITANCE, you are unbelievable core and how you think,


but keep going friend, you are letting many people see exactly how foolish one has to be to buy into all your line of thinking,

[amilltruth]

God promised Abraham ALL the land from the Euphrates to the River or Egypt.

Never has Israel occupied all that land.

Yes, God made land promises to forefathers of Israel, and kept it. But those lands did not include all promised to Abraham. And never were all the inhabitants driven out, as God said they would be.



core you are so blinded that you cannot see how much you contradict yourself here!

does the bible state that Israel recieved ALL the land, literally?

yes it does, again you say it doesnt, I and trust me many others reading will believe the bible here core.

[CoreIssue]

Temple is in every one of them. Physical, not spiritual

how do you know this core?? to fit your belief, you still have to address the glaring contradiction of sacrifices AFTER the cross, being acceptable to God.
Because it states it in everyone of them.

I cannot help it if you refuse to understand that Israel will be restored and the earthly indwelling of the Holy Spirit will cease, thus placing all under Law, which demands the Temple, again.

Sacrfices and offerings of Zech require a Temple.

Ezekiel blue prints the Temple.

Revelation states a Temple.

Daniel states a Temple.

You are spiritualizing meanings.

There is no contradiction to the Cross.

OT saints were not born again until the Resurrection. There is no requirement one must be born again while in this earthly flesh.

You are so hung up on sacrfices. But what does the Temple sacrifice represent?

It represents the promise of Christ's blood to cleanse one. So, if one is not born-again until death, then a sacrifice represents the promise of his blood at their death.

Nothing in that nulifies the Cross.

But trying to force Church Age realities onto non-Church Age realities is an ill thought out argument.

There is zero mention of Church after the 7th church in the opening of Revelation. Zero mention.

The 7 Lampstands of the Church are gone, the 7 lamps are setting by themselves. Now there are the Two Lampstands, on the earth. The 24 Elders are before the Throne, resurrected, glorified and rewarded.

Now all references are Israel. Now all language is in agreement with the OT forms of statement.

Rev 3:10 says the Church won't be there.

You have to completely deny anything literal to get Church out of the Trib.

[CoreIssue]

It is speaking of driving out demons, not binding Satan

and core how did Jesus say why he was able to cast out demons????
By commanding them.

[CoreIssue]

Joint means TWO, not ONE.


joint hier means tow peoples recieve the SAME INHERITANCE, you are unbelievable core and how you think,


but keep going friend, you are letting many people see exactly how foolish one has to be to buy into all your line of thinking,
But it does not make them the same covenant.

[CoreIssue]

God promised Abraham ALL the land from the Euphrates to the River or Egypt.

Never has Israel occupied all that land.

Yes, God made land promises to forefathers of Israel, and kept it. But those lands did not include all promised to Abraham. And never were all the inhabitants driven out, as God said they would be.



core you are so blinded that you cannot see how much you contradict yourself here!

does the bible state that Israel recieved ALL the land, literally?

yes it does, again you say it doesnt, I and trust me many others reading will believe the bible here core.
No. It does not say they received all the land promised Abraham.

YOU have changed the conditionals given.

[CoreIssue]

You guys have a total disdain for grammar and semantics.

Thus you can declare anything you want and prove none of it. It is all subjective to your spiritualized interpretations.

Thus undefendable.

[amilltruth]

But it does not make them the same covenant.

you just are never wrong are you core?

when shown to be in error on something change subject,

nice try, just doesnt work,

are you denying that saved jews and saved gentiles are part of the same body? and recieve the same inheretance?

if you do you are teaching heresy and directly opposing the Bible.

how can someone so as smart as you be so ignorant????

[Ltanner09]

Core wrote:
Prophecy says the Temple will be rebuilt. They are ready to do so.

I replied:
No such prophecy exists, for a temple made with hands.

Core:
Ezekiel, Isaiah, Zech, Daniel, Revelation and more refute you.

Again you are arguing with very clear scriptures that state what the temple of God now is.
Since the New Testament was written AFTER the chapters you listed, then you are misunderstanding the OT prophecies.

NOTHING in those prophetic books, on the Trib and MK issues have been fulfilled yet.]
Temple is in every one of them. Physical, not spiritual.

And you have been presented with numerous NT verses that disagree with you.


1Co*3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Core:
Church Age. Nothing to do with the Trib or MK.

That's an easy cop-out. The church age never ends. The body of Christ is eternal.


1Co*3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Core:
Church Age.

There is no "body of Christ age"


1Co*6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Core:
Church Age.

This is why debating with dispensationalists is useless. When their position is proven wrong, they claim "church age'. This is your 3rd time with that mantra.



2Co*6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Church Age.

Hope your members are watching.
There is no "Christ age" or "church age" as both are one and eternal.


Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Core:
Church Age.

This is truly sad. I waste my time presenting proof to you and all you can counter with is "church age".


John says Satan will be bound upon Christ's physical return to the earth. Has not happened yet.

Which verses are you using to reach the conclusion "physical return".

Core:
Chapter 19 on.

Which verses are you using to reach the conclusion "physical return".
Christ bound the strong man (Satan) at His FIRST advent:

You claim CH 19 on shows Christ physicaly returning on earth.
Which VERSE are you point to. There is none, literally.


Christ bound the strong man (Satan) at His FIRST advent:
Mt*12:29
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Core:
Try reading in context.

It is speaking of driving out demons, not binding Satan.

It is speaking to what POWER demons are driven out.

Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

The strong man is Satan.

Mr*3:27
No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Core:
Same issue, different book.

Nearly every bible commentary disagrees with you. Scripture is very cl;ear that the strong man is Satan.


You dismiss Ezekiel, deny the statements of Isaiah, ignore Israel in Revelation and attempt to get around it all by spiritualizing away every issue that disagrees with you.

NONE of the issues of Revelation have happened yet.

No Two Witnesses, no 2/3 of the world's population dying and so on.

And no, arguing your perceptions of what God will and will not do is not an aswer to what the Bible says he will do.

I think the point has been made. You favor OT verses that you misinterpret, over NT verses that prove your interpretation wrong.



Pre mill teaches a rebuilt temple will somehow be called a "temple of God", even though they reject Christ (and in doing so reject the One who sent Christ).

Again, your demands do not agree with the reality stated in Isaiah, Zech, Daniel, Revelation and other places
What happened in history does not determine what will happen in the future.

You no longer debate, you throw out books en masse that supposedly verify your theories, yet not one mentions an earthly reign of Christ, on a earthly throne, from an earthly temple for 1,000 years. Not one.



Lu 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Which will change in the future.

The Bible says Israel will be restored. And it will love God.

Christ is the restoration.

[amilltruth]

You guys have a total disdain for grammar and semantics.

Thus you can declare anything you want and prove none of it. It is all subjective to your spiritualized interpretations.

Thus undefendable.

we have a disdain for YOUR GRAMMER and semantics

the bible is what we agree with NOT YOU, because the bible contradicts what you say, literally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[amilltruth]

CORE, who is a part of the spiritual seed of Abraham?

[Ltanner09]

My time here is done.

Members never debate and you, Core, are so deep in your doctrine that you simply
stop debating and throw out references that do not support your claims.

Verses have been posted that clearly show your doctrine in very serious error, very serious.

If you wish to DEBATE you can find the board here: And bring friends.

http://p072.ezboard.com/bendtimeforum

Unlike here, you'll find plenty of members willing to debate.

This is my 3rd visit here and it always ends up with Core doing the talking and the members being silent.

[amilltruth]

to the members of the board who wan to truly understand the bible and have true discussions without someone denying, ignoring, ar flat out unbelieving the word of God as Coreissue, is showing everyone that he does, the other website is an excellent site to go to to have a real study into the word of God,

[Sid]

Don't expect much and you won't be disappointed.

. . . the place is overrun with cobwebs.

[CoreIssue]

My time here is done.

Members never debate and you, Core, are so deep in your doctrine that you simply
stop debating and throw out references that do not support your claims.

Verses have been posted that clearly show your doctrine in very serious error, very serious.

If you wish to DEBATE you can find the board here: And bring friends.

http://p072.ezboard.com/bendtimeforum

Unlike here, you'll find plenty of members willing to debate.

This is my 3rd visit here and it always ends up with Core doing the talking and the members being silent.
You pulled the same nonsense on RR as well.

Hmmm. I think you got banned for it there, if I remember correctly.

[CoreIssue]

to the members of the board who wan to truly understand the bible and have true discussions without someone denying, ignoring, ar flat out unbelieving the word of God as Coreissue, is showing everyone that he does, the other website is an excellent site to go to to have a real study into the word of God,
I looked in. Biblically hollow.

A group all on the same page with the same handful of verses.

[Sid]

I looked in. Biblically hollow.

A group all on the same page with the same handful of verses.



Lots of trash talk, they are correct and everyone else is wrong.

The us-against-them mentality is so thick. . .

[CoreIssue]

[quote]Yep, Christ is the promised seed of Abraham. Yep, there is spiritual seed of Abraham. Yep, there is physical seed of Abraham.


and who are the spiritual seed core?????

ALL saints of ALL Ages. Including those who are NEITHER Israel or Church.
and to which were the promises made to???? (Gal 3:16,29)
Some were fulfilled in Christ. Some are fulfilled via Israel. Some to all the people of the earth.

There is no such thing as ONE promise or ONE set of promises. There were several promises, several sets, some spiritual and some physical.

The Land Covenant was NOT to be fulfilled by a nation composed of the physical seed, not spiritual ones.

Try again, The land promised to ABRAHAM that would dwelt on has never belonged to Israel in history.
Those lands are laid out in the verses I posted. And they are not what ancient Israel dwelt in, ever.

it is unbelievable how you as a christian can deny the word of GOd so easy, to the ones following these threads.

I do not deny the word of God. I read it ALL, you do not.
CoreIssue says the land has "NEVER" been owned by Israel,
False. Get what I said right. The FULL land promised to Abraham to be fulfilled through his physical seed has never been fully occupied by Israel.

Any student of history knows that. And any serious Bible study shows the Bible never says the land promised to Abraham has been fully occupied yet. That is made clear in the OT.

Israel made a covenant with one group, in example, they were suppose to destroy. They did not and never took that land.

Israel never held all the land from the Euphrates to the river of Eygpt, which is the land promised to Abraham via his descendents.

the BIBLE says;
"and the Lord gave unto Israel, ALL (let me repeat) ALL the land which he sware to give unto thier fathers: AND THEY POSSESSED IT, AND DWELT THERIN."

Pay attention. God stated the land promised to Abraham. It has never been occupied.

God made other promises to the forefathers of Israel. He gave them land, but NEVER the full land promised to Abraham.

Can you not understand that distinction? No. Apparently you cannot.

It does not say Abraham in that verse, anywhere.

If it fulfilled Abraham it would have stated Abraham, not forefathers.

Joshua 21:43-45
"THERE FAILED NOT OUGHT OF ANY GOOD THING WHICH THE LORD HAD SPOKEN UNTO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, ALL CAME TO PASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Joshua 21:45

All what? Again you fail.
now who are you going to believe????
God, who made a lot of different promises to a lot of different people in Israel.

You have cited promises to Israel, never Abraham here.

If you do not understand Abraham is NOT Israel, you understand nothing.

the bible or coreissue?
The Bible. Not your lack of understanding of Biblical issues.

[CoreIssue]

WHEN did this happen? Don't quote verses at me. Show me when, in history, this was ever a fact?

It NEVER has been. Never has Israel held all this land. Ever.

Genesis 15
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-379d)] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es and Jebusites."

[Jessie]

wow you have spiritualized what should be taken as literal.
and have taken out of context.



we are not isreal.

[Sid]

This is my 3rd visit here and it always ends up with Core doing the talking and the members being silent.



Looks like Core had no problem at all slicing and dicing your eisegesis [reading meanings into Scripture that aren't there / denying those that are].




We were just doing the wave:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_dothewave.gifhttp://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_dothewave.gifhttp://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_dothewave.gifhttp://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_dothewave.gif

[amilltruth]

WHEN did this happen? Don't quote verses at me. Show me when, in history, this was ever a fact?

It NEVER has been. Never has Israel held all this land. Ever.

Genesis 15
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-379d)] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es and Jebusites."



unbelievable that you would make this comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

dont quote the bible to you???????????????
show you history???????????????

who do you believe core? the bible or what history has to say????

dont quote verses to you, show you history???

unbelievable!!!!!!!


and by the way nice way of locking every thread you cant answer at...

so again how was this literally fulfilled???

"And in that day I will build up again the tabernacle of David,..." amos 9:11

can you not dodge it this time??

and you DID NOT ANSWER THIS IN ANY THREAD, so if you lock this one, it shows the hypocrosy in you, can you answer it????

[CoreIssue]

WHEN did this happen? Don't quote verses at me. Show me when, in history, this was ever a fact?

It NEVER has been. Never has Israel held all this land. Ever.

Genesis 15
On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-379d)] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girga****es and Jebusites."



unbelievable that you would make this comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

dont quote the bible to you???????????????
show you history???????????????

who do you believe core? the bible or what history has to say????

dont quote verses to you, show you history???

unbelievable!!!!!!!


and by the way nice way of locking every thread you cant answer at...

so again how was this literally fulfilled???

"And in that day I will build up again the tabernacle of David,..." amos 9:11

can you not dodge it this time??

and you DID NOT ANSWER THIS IN ANY THREAD, so if you lock this one, it shows the hypocrosy in you, can you answer it????
There is nothing to dodge. The Tabenacle (Temple) of God has not been rebuilt, to date.

The land promised to ABRAHAM, not descendents of ISRAEL, has never been fully occupied to date. Period.

You can misquote the Bible all you want to try to evade that point. That is why I asked you to back you claimed meaning of the verses with facts from history to back it. You cannot because the land has NEVER been fully occupied yet.

And I note you dodged all the point out I didn't of literal Temple statements in prophecy. NONE have been fuliflled yet.

ITW locked a thread because you constantly spewed out accusations of lying, implying we know you are right but will not admit it.

I locked another thread because you defied ITW and tried to start what got the first one locked all over again. That is not allowed. Period.

You were answered. Cannot help it the answer shows how poorly and incorrectly you deal with grammar and word definitions.

There is no Holy Dictionary that changes the meanings of words used. No Holy Grammar that changes all the rules of how one is to read sentences.

You cannot deal with what I laid out, so you try to go back to an already refuted argument and start it all over again.

Either respond the verses posted, show how they do not say what the literally say, or be silent. You are just repeating the same worn out montra over and over and over as if saying it over and over and over makes it fact. It doesn't.

Deal with some substance for once in your posts. Not your Shopping Cart Theology that cannot step beyond a handful of wrongly interpreted verses.

[CoreIssue]

Now, let us deal with what Amos 9 ACTUALLY says, and not your taking it out of context to put a spiritualized meaning upon.
1 I saw the Lord standing by the altar,
Physical Temple in Jerusalem, not the Heavenly one, due to what is said next, which he woud NOT do to the Heavenly.

and he said:
"Strike the tops of the pillars
so that the thresholds shake.
Bring them down on the heads of all the people;
those who are left I will kill with the sword.
Not one will get away,
none will escape.

2 Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22498a)]
from there my hand will take them.
Though they climb up to the heavens,
from there I will bring them down.
3 Though they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
there I will hunt them down and seize them.
Though they hide from me at the bottom of the sea,
there I will command the serpent to bite them.
4 Though they are driven into exile by their enemies,
there I will command the sword to slay them.
I will fix my eyes upon them
for evil and not for good." 5 The Lord, the LORD Almighty,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
and all who live in it mourn—
the whole land rises like the Nile,
then sinks like the river of Egypt-

Happened in 70AD. The Romans piled a mountain of heads outside the gates of Jerusalem. Who didn't die was hauled off in slavery.

6 he who builds his lofty palace [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502b)] in the heavens
and sets its foundation [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22502c)] on the earth,
who calls for the waters of the sea
and pours them out over the face of the land—
the LORD is his name.

Strongly sets the authority of God to do this.
7 "Are not you Israelites

Not talking to Gentiles here. Talking to Jews.

the same to me as the Cu****es [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503d)] ?"
declares the LORD .
"Did I not bring Israel up from Egypt,
the Philistines from Caphtor [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22503e)]
and the Arameans from Kir?
8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD
are on the sinful kingdom.
I will destroy it
from the face of the earth—


Happened.

yet I will not totally destroy
the house of Jacob,"
declares the LORD.
9 "For I will give the command,
and I will shake the house of Israel
among all the nations
as grain is shaken in a sieve,
and not a pebble will reach the ground.

Israel was scattered in 70 AD.

10 All the sinners among my people
will die by the sword,
all those who say,
'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'

The Christian Jews fled. They scattered among the nations.

The non-Christian ones stayed and were slaughtered.

Israel's Restoration
11 "In that day

What day? That phrase is used in reference to the End Times throughout prophecy.

I will restore
David's fallen tent.
I will repair its broken places,
restore its ruins,
and build it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name, [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22508f)] "
declares the LORD, who will do these things.

Restore Israel, the dwelling place of David.

13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes.
New wine will drip from the mountains
and flow from all the hills.

Sounds a lot like the promises in Isaiah, and other places.

Israel HAS been restored. They ARE making the land bloom and produce abundantly.
14 I will bring back my exiled [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=amos%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22510g)] people Israel;

Bring Israel back. Not replace them.

And it has happened. Israel is restored.

they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.

Not historical, for Israel has been uprooted until now.

So prophetic. Not to Church, but to Israel.

But you spiritualized the meaning right out of this passage by only selecting one verse and trying to force other meaning on it.

Add this the passage I covered before and tell me where I spiritualized away them meaning you presented? Tell my why you did not do the spiritualizing?

You cannot because you did spiritualize it. This passage is addressed to Israel and God says that nation will be restored and will never cease to be a nation again.

We see that as a fact with Israel being the Gate to the NJ, not Church. We see Church as being the foundation of the NJ, not Israel.

TWO heirs, not one, together sharing the inheritence given by Christ.

[amilltruth]

so you deny there was not a spiritual fulfillment in the NT of this verse?????

[CoreIssue]

so you deny there was not a spiritual fulfillment in the NT of this verse?????
Absolutely.

What do the words state, literally?

There was a literal fulfillment against Israel, in the destruction. The restoration part has not happened.

Tent/House of David, the King, means the nation/people of Israel. That is not spiritualizing anything.

That was a literally known and accepted phraseology to call those under the headship of someone his house/tent.

Tabernacle means the Temple.

Both will be restored.

That does absolutely nothing to deny what Christ did and will do. It just refutes Replacement Theology.

[kay-gee]

Amilltruth, Hallelujah!!! Your Bible verses on this topic are 100 per cent rock solid. I checked them and they can't be denied. I thank-you for presenting them on this forum. And to think that a short time ago, I was beginning to waffle. You've saved me and I thank-you for it....All the best........

[CoreIssue]

Amilltruth, Hallelujah!!! Your Bible verses on this topic are 100 per cent rock solid. I checked them and they can't be denied. I thank-you for presenting them on this forum. And to think that a short time ago, I was beginning to waffle. You've saved me and I thank-you for it....All the best........
Hmmm. Please post the full Amos 9 passage and go through it point by point and tell me where you find what amilltruth said it says?

Not just pulling a single verse out and slapping an interpretation on it. Show it in full context of the passage.

You spiritualized the Bible before and it seems like you have yet to stop doing that.

Just show me where it says what he claims. Literally. There.

Simple request. One that those into Shopping Cart Theology can never do.

Notice that after all his rhetoric, amilltruth cannot take any of the passages I posted and dealt with point by point and do the same?

That should tell you that approach does not work, in fact.

[amilltruth]

kay-gee, just keep studying my friend, many years ago I was also waffleing on these issues a well,but it was the persistence of others like ltanner, coreissue, and others on other sites that would not back off of coreissue and just presented the bible inits plain words, that helped me to see the light,

I began to check other sites and study for myself, not what someone else was telling me, and came to know the truth.

try this site http://p072.ezboard.com/bendtimeforum

remember dont take what anyone says as the truth, study all sides of an issue and come to your own conclusion from the bible what is the truth, not what the BIble says according to CoreIssue.

[amilltruth]

so you deny there was not a spiritual fulfillment in the NT of this verse?????
Absolutely.

What do the words state, literally?

There was a literal fulfillment against Israel, in the destruction. The restoration part has not happened.

Tent/House of David, the King, means the nation/people of Israel. That is not spiritualizing anything.

That was a literally known and accepted phraseology to call those under the headship of someone his house/tent.

Tabernacle means the Temple.

Both will be restored.

That does absolutely nothing to deny what Christ did and will do. It just refutes Replacement Theology.

so why then do we find this verse in the NT being fulfilled in a 'NONLITERAL" way?

"Simeon hath declared how god at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name, AND TO THIS AGREE THE WORDS OF THE PROPHET; as it is written, after this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David. which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins therof, and I will set it up, that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things"

acts 15:14-17

NOW GO AHEAD AND TELL EVERYONE HOW MUCH LUKE WAS WRONG HERE, AND THIS WAS NOT THE FULFILLMENT OF THE PFOPHECY IN AMOS


does your bible even have a New Testament in it????
your so stuck on OT passages, if you would just read the NT, you might find most of them fulfilled.

[CoreIssue]

Stop stalling.

Post the ful OT passages, like I did, and go through them and tell me what they say.

Stop jumping away and slopping out foundationless claims. That is just rhetoric.

You won't because you cannot. No way you can spin it when you have to ACTUALLY explaiin what is being said.

[CoreIssue]

kay-gee, just keep studying my friend, many years ago I was also waffleing on these issues a well,but it was the persistence of others like ltanner, coreissue, and others on other sites that would not back off of coreissue and just presented the bible inits plain words, that helped me to see the light,

I began to check other sites and study for myself, not what someone else was telling me, and came to know the truth.

try this site http://p072.ezboard.com/bendtimeforum

remember dont take what anyone says as the truth, study all sides of an issue and come to your own conclusion from the bible what is the truth, not what the BIble says according to CoreIssue.
Yes, study the Bible and read it for what it says. Which does not mean picking a single verse, here and there, and saying they mean something absolutely non related to the passage from which they come from.

That is classical false, doctrine, cult and such tactic. You guys CANNOT deal with a full passage, in context. Sounds like gibberish when you attempt to, so you don't.

[amilltruth]

Core, I asked you about one verse, Amos 9:11

again do you deny that there is a spiritual fulfillment in the NT?????

if you can take what and how the NT, (not coreissue) interprets this verse then maybe you can understand now the other veres around it are supposed to be taken.

[CoreIssue]

Core, I asked you about one verse, Amos 9:11

again do you deny that there is a spiritual fulfillment in the NT?????

if you can take what and how the NT, (not coreissue) interprets this verse then maybe you can understand now the other veres around it are supposed to be taken.
You CANNOT read a verse out the passage context given.

I repeat, post the passage and explain it.

There is a LITERAL fulfilment in Revelation.

Your complete disregard for grammar and semantics is defeating you. You CANNOT pull a single verse out of context and assign a meaning that fits your thinking. Your thinking has to fit the verse as used in context.

Yours does not.

[amilltruth]

Core, I asked you about one verse, Amos 9:11

again do you deny that there is a spiritual fulfillment in the NT?????

if you can take what and how the NT, (not coreissue) interprets this verse then maybe you can understand now the other veres around it are supposed to be taken.
You CANNOT read a verse out the passage context given.

I repeat, post the passage and explain it.

There is a LITERAL fulfilment in Revelation.

Your complete disregard for grammar and semantics is defeating you. You CANNOT pull a single verse out of context and assign a meaning that fits your thinking. Your thinking has to fit the verse as used in context.

Yours does not.


I am not the one who pulled it out of anywhere!!!!!

Luke did in Acts, I simply believe it, you on the other hand do not.

[CoreIssue]

Just post the passage and define it!

If you are do absolutely right you should have no problem making me look like a fool by explaining what it says! But you cannot!

As for Acts 15:14-17
14Simon[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2015:14-17&version=31#fen-NIV-27445a)] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2015:14-17&version=31#fen-NIV-27448b)]
It doesn't say anything you claim it does.

No Restoration Theology here.

The passage is about Jews trying to forced Mosaic Law and such on Gentiles in the Church. Trying to Judaise the Church.

They are told not to do that. That God now was reaching out to Gentiles to be of his covenant elect.

But one has to remember why the Church happened. It happened becuase Israel rejected the New Covenant offered them, via Christ.

The Church did NOT get the New Covenant offered the Houses of Israel and Judah. Paul, in Hebrews, tells us THAT covenant is still future.

And that is confirmed by the 70th Week of Daniel, yet to happen, all the OT prophecies about the Trib and MK, the Book of Revelation and so on. All the statements that those of your thinking must either disregard or spiritualize the meanings thereof.

The Church Covenant has no physical Temple, Christ reigning physically on the earth, or any of the things prophied.

Now, getting back to chapter 15. As said, the Apostles told the Jews the Gentiles were not Jews, therefore they were not under Mosaic Law.

But notice, the Jews were NEVER told to abandon the sign/seal of Abraham, circumcision. Ever.

That is because that was an eternal covenant to Abraham, to be fulfilled via his physical descendents.

The full land promised Abraham has NEVER been occupied by Israel, in example. EVER.
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.

Learn to read properly. After WHAT?

It says AFTER these events with the Gentiles the tent will be restored. Not DURING these events with the Gentiles. After does not mean during or at the same time.

After THIS!
"Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
After God decided to send the Apostles to the Gentiles.

Christ did NOT come to the Gentiles. He came to Jews.

They rejected him. God turned to the Gentiles.

But NOWHERE does it EVER say the Church Age would not end, that the Church was Israel or any such thing. That is never said.

What is said is that the Church Age will end. That Israel will be restored. And that this time the Jews will accept the New Covenant, will obey God and will fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

The house of David was not rebuilt then. The nation of Israel has just been restored. It is in the process of being rebuilt, now.

and I will restore it,

Rebuilt and restored.

Taking what was, is not, and bringing it back.

You CANNOT call the Church something rebuilt and restored when it never existed before.

And this is FUTURE tense. Has not happened yet.

17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

What does remnant mean?

The portion left, what surives.

2/3 of the world population dies in the Trib. Remnant is a most applicable word.

And remnant sure didn't apply to the founding of the Church.

and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27448b)]
18that have been known for ages.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-27449c)]

'And' is a conjunction. Talking about TWO groups here.

Gentiles and who? Jews! That is the two groups. There are no others.

No. It does not say what you claim.

The Apostles where telling the Jews Israel would be restored. But not THEN. And during the NOT THEN the Mosaic Law did not apply.

But why would law apply again when Israel was restored? Because the stone Temple would be back.

Learn to read grammatically.

You have to spiritualize everything that moves to get your position.

Now, lay out the Amos passage and tell me what it means, literally.

You cannot and achieve your claims.

[CoreIssue]

I add. Luke and Amos must agree in what is said. One context cannot contradict the other.

And it does not, when read literally and grammatically.

But it does when you spiritualize it.

[kay-gee]

Core, You stand to be corrected. According to 2 Chronicles 9:26, Israel was in full possession of the land promised to Abraham. From Euphrates to Egypt and all of the land of the Phillistines. Pure OT narrative, No spiritualizing here! As for Amos 9 if read completely literally, as you say, appears to foretell the coming destruction and abduction of Israel and their ultimate return. The temple was re-built at that time (see Neamiah). Those things did come to pass Literally!! I'm not exactly sure where the problem arises concerning this passage. All the best..............

[CoreIssue]

Core, You stand to be corrected. According to 2 Chronicles 9:26, Israel was in full possession of the land promised to Abraham. From Euphrates to Egypt and all of the land of the Phillistines. Pure OT narrative, No spiritualizing here!
Ruled over is not the same as possessing.

Israel was to destroy ALL others from the land and dwell and own it directly themselves.

That has not happened.

Rome, in example, ruled over many lands that it never owned or possessed. So did Greece.

A subject state is not a dwelt in state. You need to learn the distinction.

In example, the US controlled Japan, after the war. But we never owned, possessed or made it part of the US.

History is very clear on this. Israel has never possessed tha land promised to Abraham. Ever.

As for Amos 9 if read completely literally, as you say, appears to foretell the coming destruction and abduction of Israel and their ultimate return. The temple was re-built at that time (see Neamiah). Those things did come to pass Literally!! I'm not exactly sure where the problem arises concerning this passage. All the best..............

No. You are completely wrong here.

This part was not fulfilled at that time.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,"
says the LORD your God.
They were indeed uprooted from the land again. By the Romans, in example.

ALL the conditions must be met. And they have not.

[kay-gee]

According to that logic, They aint possessing the land now either!....All the best........

[CoreIssue]

According to that logic, They aint possessing the land now either!....All the best........
You are missing it.

Israel was a nation then and is a nation now, restored as promised by prophecy.

But it did not possess the full land promised to Abraham then or now.

You have to see the Biblical distinction between Israel as a nation and the land promised to Abraham to be fulfilled via Israel.

Each are part of each other. But neither is fully the other.

[kay-gee]

So the Holy Bible only came to us to tell of Gods plan for this select nation of people(that the rest of us cant be a part of ) every chapter and verse is a foretelling of the glorius future for Israel. It is in no way a spiritual book. Basically a handbook of predictions(history written down in advance) for the wisdom of the premillenialists. Jesus is no more than a blip on the radar screen. A failure. Came to culminate Gods plan for nation Israel, but got rejected. God now had to go to plan B. Jerry-rigged together a meaningless institution called the Church So He can have something to show for His efforts till Israel comes to its senses. Jesus' blood will just have to do for now while we wait for the temple to be rebuilt and can get back to the blood of animals to take away sin. Now I feel like its useless to be a Christian. The guys down the street at the synagogue are the ones that God really cares about anyway. This appears to me to be your theology(Core). Its confusing and downright bizzare (even by premill standards). If thats what you believe than who am I to change you. I love you anyway. By the way, you'd better be sure that when Jesus comes, He dosent get rejected again. You'll have to go back to the drawing board and re-jig your prophecies. May God help you....All the best....

[CoreIssue]

So the Holy Bible only came to us to tell of Gods plan for this select nation of people(that the rest of us cant be a part of ) every chapter and verse is a foretelling of the glorius future for Israel.
You are confusing issues of salvation with covenant issues. And that is very misleading.

Covenants are not salvation. They are God's chosen mechanisms for dealing with Man, as regards revelation and so on.

Before Israel, God dealt purely one and one with every human. But that lacked.

So, he chose Israel to be his nation of priests to set an example to the world on how to live, learn and follow God. They failed.

But that did not make any Gentile saint less loved or saved.

The Church, his current covenant people, has indeed done better than Israel did, in the past, as God's example to world.

But it is failing. Just as Israel failed.

Israel will again become the covenant people to be a light to the world.

They will get it right this time, but again, the world will ultimately fail. But this time be destroyed and eternity will begin.

Israel is Wife of God the Father. Church is Bride of God the Son. All are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, including those who were neither Church or Israel.

What is to be disappointed about? I don't see it.

It is ego to want God to do it our way. We should be happy to do it his way.

I sure am.
It is in no way a spiritual book.
Never said or implied.

But to spiritualize everything said is destructive. It denies the reality God deals with our worldy realities to make our spiritual ones better.
Basically a handbook of predictions(history written down in advance) for the wisdom of the premillenialists.
And that is an ego trip statement of Amills, who see themselves in an elevated state of meaning and existence that the Bible never says.
Jesus is no more than a blip on the radar screen.
Foolish statement.
A failure.
Absurd statement. One based on the idea that if self is not elevated God is diminished.
Came to culminate Gods plan for nation Israel, but got rejected.
Using Israel as a tool to the world was not a plan exclusively for Israel. That is a failure to see what covenants are all about.
God now had to go to plan B. Jerry-rigged together a meaningless institution called the Church So He can have something to show for His efforts till Israel comes to its senses.
Absurd statement. Again one of ego.
Jesus' blood will just have to do for now while we wait for the temple to be rebuilt and can get back to the blood of animals to take away sin.
Animal sacrfice never took away sin. That is nonsense.
Now I feel like its useless to be a Christian.
Why? Because your ego is damaged? Because Jews are equal to you? Gentiles are not superior?
The guys down the street at the synagogue are the ones that God really cares about anyway.
No. Those guys in the synagogue are going to Hell for rejecting Christ.

If that is your idea of superior, you are blind to many truths.
This appears to me to be your theology(Core).
Then you invented a theology you are trying to lay on me to justify the Amill ego trip. I sure never implied any such things as fact.

You need to learn what a covenant body is versus salvation.
Its confusing and downright bizzare (even by premill standards).
Millions of Christians believe it.

If you think what I am saying is isolated and unique, you really lack in study.
If thats what you believe than who am I to change you.
Is this suppose to be a Biblical answer? A set of facts to back Amill?

It isn't. It is an emotional statement based on personal desire and feelings. Noting Biblical.

And before you say it is, post the verses that explain where this is said. Not select verses, out of context, but passages.

Or do you simply dismiss such as the statement when Israel is restored they will never be removed from the land again? That IS a literal statement.
I love you anyway. By the way, you'd better be sure that when Jesus comes, He dosent get rejected again. You'll have to go back to the drawing board and re-jig your prophecies. May God help you....All the best....
A big statement with nothing to back it.

I notice NONE of you Amills EVER posted any of the passages and went through, explaining them. Just plucked a verse out and built a theology around an erroneous interpretation the passage does not support.

Think about it. I you cannot lay it out and explain it, how can it be true?

[Edge]

I see an interesting blend of heresies emerging here.

Zionism is a political movement built on the assumption that the Jewish people deserve by right to possess the land of Palestine as their own. During the latter part of the 19th and former part of the twentieth centuries, Zionism gained massive support throughout the Christian West. This was down to two factors

a.) The influence that Jewish wealth could purchase among politicians

b.) The emotional support that the history of Jewish persecution could elicit from a Christianized public conscience.

Armed with this support, Zionist guerillas succeeded in throwing Palestine into havoc during the late 1940s, and finally took over that land, The result was the disenfranchisement of the people who had historically dwelt there. Moslem Palestinians were formally disenfranchised, and Palestinian Jews were effectively disenfranchised as a result of being swamped by the huge number of European Jews who immigrated to the new State of Israel.

It is important to realize that the most conservative Jews were anti-Zionists, firmly believing that Palestine was not going to become a Jewish land until made so by the coming of the Messiah. Much severe criticism of the political Zionist movement has come from anti-Zionist Jews (the most noted being Alfred M. Lilienthal).

Scripturally speaking, a Jew is someone who is covenanted into the people of the Jews by circumcision. When Abraham was commanded to circumcise, he was to circumcise his entire household, including his 318 fighting men and his other domestic servants (Gen. 14:14; 17:10-14). Competent scholars imagine that Abraham’s household probably included at least 3000 persons. These servants multiplied as the years went by, and Jacob inherited them all (Gen. 27:37). Although only 70 from the loins of Jacob went down into Egypt, so many servants followed, that they had to be given the whole land of Goshen in which to live.

All these people were Jews, but only a fraction actually had any of Abraham’s blood in them. Later on we see many other people becoming Jews; indeed, the lists of David’s men include many foreigners, of whom Uriah the Hittite is probably the best known.

What this demonstrates is that covenant, not race, is and has always been the defining mark of a Jew (as it is also of a Christian). Genealogical records were kept for the immediate family, of course, since the Messiah had to be of the actual blood of Abraham, and later of David; but this did not apply to more than a fraction of the total number of people.

Thus, the Jews are those who claim to be Jews, who are covenanted with the Jews. The Khazari converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages, and technically they are Jews (British-Israelite rightist nonsense to the contrary). Of course, modern Zionists do not understand this religious principle as they conceive of everything in terms of blood and race.

Another line of criticism against Zionism concerns the legitimacy of its invasion and conquest of Palestine. There are arguments to the effect that the Jews stole the land from its inhabitants, that they have persecuted the Palestinians, and that they committed horrors during their guerilla campaign etc. Then there are arguments stating that the Jews in Palestine were mistreated under Moslem rule, that the Palestinians are better off today under enlightened Jewish government than they formerly were, and that the Jews have exercised dominion over the land and the Moslems did not, thereby forfeiting their right to it, etc, etc...

Actually, none of this is any of our direct concern as Christians. We see both Jews and Moslems as groups that have rejected Christ as Messiah, and who have rejected the true faith. If they want to convert, we rejoice. If they want to murder each other, then that is terrible, but let them have at it...there’s nothing we can do about it.

But then, that brings us to the issue: Are Bible-believing Christians supposed to support a Jewish State, for theological reasons? I don't think so. Anyway, with this little prologue, let's look at who is who according to the apostle Paul in regard to Israel...

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

In Chapter 11, it is clear that Paul is addressing Israelites, but who are Israel today? And who are the children of promise? Who are Abraham's seed? The Bible couldn't be clearer.

At the time Paul was writing there was a remnant of national Israelites who were not yet believers, thus they were still counted as enemies of those Israelites who had been converted to Christ. This is why Paul refers to himself prior to his conversion in Acts. He makes it clear that there is a difference between his status as an unbelieving Jew, and his status as a believing one;

Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.


Acts 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.


1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Paul, himself an Israelite, makes the distinction between his national status and his spiritual one. Clearly, his status as a Jew has nothing to do with his spiritual status as part of the true church of God. However, because he was one of the elect national Israelites, God saw fit to convert him.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The entire number of national Israelites who were elect had not yet come to faith in Christ, but the remnant of national Israel would come by the election of grace. It is the same for Jew and Gentile...an election of grace alone. There is no special dispensation given to national Jews, as they too must know Jesus in order to be saved.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The unsaved among 'national Israel' were the enemies of both converted Jews and Gentiles, and though some of these were elect, they had not yet been converted. But the promise was sure. However, not all national Jews were (or are) elect, not all knew (or know) Jesus Christ our Lord as Messiah.

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Even Paul recognized that not all of national Israel would be saved. Just the elect. This is consistant with the doctrine of sovereign grace, which ascribes salvation to the individual. To suggest that nationality has anything to do with salvation is to deny the gospel of grace to the individual. Peoples from all nations can come to a knowledge of Christ.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

There is a clear contrast between the elect unbelieving national Israelites and the non-elect national Israelites. In this passage, the reference is to the elect (yet unbelieving) national Israelites:

Romans 11:25 So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob."

So, Unless Rom 11: 14 is a contradiction, "all Israel" must be a remnant of national Israel which includes "the full number of gentiles". Therefore, "All Israel" is not 'national Israel', but 'spiritual Israel' and includes believers (Gentiles) from every nation.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Paul says in Romans 11:28;

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."

That is the same group as Paul mentioned in Romans 11:5-7;

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

National Israel failed to "obtain what it was seeking." In other words, national Israel (as a whole) has failed to live up to the law that they pursued as their means of righteousness. They had failed to be righteous in God's eyes, and stumbled over the stumbling stone which is Christ "Whom they sought not";

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jesus Christ is the stone which the builders rejected (Mark 12:10) and is the end of the law for righteousness for all who believe on him (Romans 10:4).

Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We read in Romans 11:7: "The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened." The elect obtained righteousness through Christ. They obtained faith, justification and salvation, but the rest were hardened.
This is true of all nations, not just Israel. It would be imprudent indeed to preach that all of national Israel has a special dispensation of grace. The elect within national Israel are no different to the elect anywhere else, and the same goes for unbelievers.

Let's look at the hardening.

In Rom 11:8 Paul quotes three Old Testament scriptures to add weight to his point (Isaiah 29:10; Deuteronomy 29:4; Psalm 69:22-23).

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Paul was using these prophetic images concerning Israel to demonstrate the effects of God's spiritual hardening;

God gave them "a spirit of slumber." Slumber in the Hebrew is katanuxis {kat-an'-oox-is} which is an insensibility or torpor of mind, (such as extreme grief easily produces) hence a "spirit of stupor", refers to that which renders their souls torpid and so insensible that they are not affected at all by the offer made them of salvation through the Messiah. The result is spiritual blindness.God gave them "eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear."

The second passage that Paul cites is Psalm 69:22-23.

Paul reads the curses from this psalm as divine judgment, spoken by God through David, about the nation of Israel, especially as they rejected the final Son of David when he came, Jesus Christ.

(Note; Some theologians have likened "their table" to physical wealth, worldly possessions or associated non-spiritual appetites wherein they lose all desire for God, as opposed to the table of spiritual blessing in the wilderness that is for the saint [Psalm 23:5] - Likewise, "bow down their back alway" has been likened to the burden of labouring under the law, or, the back being pride as in the strength of man - or both.)

The Church is not to be seen as secondary to national Israel, or as a seperate other to Israel. The term "all Israel" is inclusive of all believers. The Church is the body of Christ and is therefore the "fullness of God"

Eph. 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The Church was very much a part of God's plan from the beginning. Romans 9:22-26 (which cites Hosea 1:10) states that the children of Israel, both Jews and Gentiles, will be as the sand of the sea, too numerous to measure or number. God does not have have two chosen peoples, nor does he speak of two brides.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christians are also called "the Israel of God" which in itself is enough to claim the title.

Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Israel was to be "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation,"

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

And in reference to the church, God says;

1 Pet. 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God"

The Lord only has one people, His body, His bride, His royal priesthood, His holy nation.

[kay-gee]

Certainly a lot of info to consider in that post. Well researched and presented. Edge, you truly must be a scholar. Personally, I am a little disturbed about this obsession with national Israel. I believe that Jesus Christ is the complete object and central figure of the entire Holy scriptures from GEN to REV. He and His church are the entireity of Gods plan for this world and for mankind. I look upon Israel as a stepping stone to a true body of believers who will worship Him in spirit and truth. Jesus said God could make Abrahams children out of rocks if He wanted to. What He can't do, is make people who willingly love Him out of their own hearts and from their spirits. Theres a verse in NT (I'm sure you know where) that says The law was our tutor leading us to Christ. For us to really appreciaye grace, we had to see how the law worked out through Israel. The types of worship, the blood etc...Jesus is who it was all leading to. He is the building. Israel was the scaffolding. When the building is built, the scaffolding is taken down. That is a capsule of what I believe. In my last post to this thread, I was merely capsulizing what appears to be CORES theology. Thank-you for giving the word I was looking for. classic ZIONISM. Anyways I'm pleased to make your aquaintance. Please don't dissappear. All the best............

[CoreIssue]

Edge, you really spun the verses there.

Those passages clearly define all in Christ as one spiritual people while keeping Gentiles and Israel distinct physically and by covenants.

You cannot post a single verse that ever calls a Gentile Israel or Israel Gentiles.

All Israel cam from Jacob. Not the servants of Abraham.

That is never said or implied in the Bible.

To become Israel took three genertions. First generation had to marry a Jews. Then they had to stay faithful to Judaism. Then the 3rd generation was Jewish.

You are totally wrong in claiming circumcision makes one a Jews instantly. That is false.

Prophecy says Israel will be restored as a nation, will become saved as a nation, will fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant and will be priests in a restored Temple.

All your efforts to circumvent those prophecies fail the instant one reads the prophecies literally.

Amills never deal with the prophecies. They do what you have done to try to get around them.

But they cannot.

ONE Body of Christ composed of TWO heirs, Israel and Church.

[CoreIssue]

Certainly a lot of info to consider in that post. Well researched and presented. Edge, you truly must be a scholar. Personally, I am a little disturbed about this obsession with national Israel. I believe that Jesus Christ is the complete object and central figure of the entire Holy scriptures from GEN to REV. He and His church are the entireity of Gods plan for this world and for mankind. I look upon Israel as a stepping stone to a true body of believers who will worship Him in spirit and truth. Jesus said God could make Abrahams children out of rocks if He wanted to. What He can't do, is make people who willingly love Him out of their own hearts and from their spirits. Theres a verse in NT (I'm sure you know where) that says The law was our tutor leading us to Christ. For us to really appreciaye grace, we had to see how the law worked out through Israel. The types of worship, the blood etc...Jesus is who it was all leading to. He is the building. Israel was the scaffolding. When the building is built, the scaffolding is taken down. That is a capsule of what I believe. In my last post to this thread, I was merely capsulizing what appears to be CORES theology. Thank-you for giving the word I was looking for. classic ZIONISM. Anyways I'm pleased to make your aquaintance. Please don't dissappear. All the best............
And not ONE of ANY of you who are into this thinking are able to deal with the prophecies.

Instead, you all have to focus on NT verses that you add statements to that were never said.

No where does it ever call Israel Church or Church Israel.
Ephesians 3:6[/B] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=3&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.]
Heirs, not heir. Gentile WITH Israel. Not IS Israel. Members, plural, not member. Sharers together, not one one one alone.

READ what it says, not what you want it to say.

If you have it so right, lay out the passages that I did and explain them completely.

But you don't because you cannot.

[amilltruth]

Edge, EXCELLENT POST!!!!

Kay-gee, and others, it is obvious that Core believes that unsaved Israelites are more powerful and more important to God than saved gentiles.

how anyone can deny such a clear teaching of the scriptures is beyond me, everytime we or anyone states scripture, core automatically says we misapply it, funny all we have to do is "quote" scripture and it refutes Core's false teaching.

Edge, I couldnt agree with you more here, excellent post, and the absolute truth of Gods word!!!

[kay-gee]

Guess you're a Zionist and I'm a amill. So where do we go from here? All the best.......

[CoreIssue]

Kay-gee, and others, it is obvious that Core believes that unsaved Israelites are more powerful and more important to God than saved gentiles.
That is a foolish assumption to make.

I never said it or believe it.

Your inability to understand what a covenant mean is your problem. Not mine.
how anyone can deny such a clear teaching of the scriptures is beyond me, everytime we or anyone states scripture, core automatically says we misapply it, funny all we have to do is "quote" scripture and it refutes Core's false teaching.

Clear teachings?

That coming from one who is unable to post and explain passages as I have because you KNOW you are totally unable to do so?

All you are doing is blowing hot air.

You have not proven anything. You have merely posted a few cherry picked verses and then tried to force your meaning upon them.
Edge, I couldnt agree with you more here, excellent post, and the absolute truth of Gods word!!!
Actually, a distortion of history and adding things to the verses that were not said.

You guys really need to learn how to read. You are violating grammar and word meanings all over the place.

Your rhetoric is hollow, amillerror. And I am growing tired of you saying nothing but rhetoric.

Either post the passages, as I did, and explain them, verse for verse, or be silent on these issues.

All you are doing is preaching and you are crossing a line with it.

Put up or shut up.

[CoreIssue]

Guess you're a Zionist and I'm a amill. So where do we go from here? All the best.......
Can't you amills ever get it correct?

I am not a Zionist. I have no use for trying to make prophecy come true by using political means.

Let me see, kay-gee, you are PC, anti-Israel, anti-freedom of choice (you do support socialism), anti-literal Bible and more.

None of which are Biblical.

What is with folk into false doctrine? No proofs, just accusations, bad grammar, bad word definition and rhetoric.

Truth? :ick: , offensive.

All geared to be self pleasing.

Please actually post something Biblical, in context, for a change.

When I pointed out God said Israel would be restored, never to be removed from the land again, to refute you, you never replied.

Classic false doctrine. Don't answer what one can ignore.

Real good defense of a belief.

[Edge]

Certainly a lot of info to consider in that post. Well researched and presented. Edge, you truly must be a scholar. Personally, I am a little disturbed about this obsession with national Israel.

As you should be. 'Christian Judaism' is an affront to the doctrine of sovereign grace as preached by Christ and the apostles. Every tenet of sound Christian doctrine has it's front lines, and here we see exactly how the deciever has attempted to corrupt the doctrine of sovereign grace through 'Christian' Judaism and 'Christian' Zionism. (Sovereign grace ascribes salvation to the individual). Dispensationalism opens the door anew to Judaism, and here we see a classic example of how it is incompatible with the gospel of our Lord under the New Covenant of His blood.


I believe that Jesus Christ is the complete object and central figure of the entire Holy scriptures from GEN to REV. He and His church are the entireity of Gods plan for this world and for mankind. I look upon Israel as a stepping stone to a true body of believers who will worship Him in spirit and truth.

Indeed my dear sister. :tiphat:


Jesus said God could make Abrahams children out of rocks if He wanted to. What He can't do, is make people who willingly love Him out of their own hearts and from their spirits. Theres a verse in NT (I'm sure you know where) that says The law was our tutor leading us to Christ.

Absolutely right.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


For us to really appreciaye grace, we had to see how the law worked out through Israel. The types of worship, the blood etc...Jesus is who it was all leading to. He is the building. Israel was the scaffolding. When the building is built, the scaffolding is taken down. That is a capsule of what I believe. In my last post to this thread, I was merely capsulizing what appears to be CORES theology. Thank-you for giving the word I was looking for. classic ZIONISM. Anyways I'm pleased to make your aquaintance. Please don't dissappear. All the best............

Thank you for the warm welcome sister, I shall certainly pop in as I can. :hug:

[CoreIssue]

Well, the rhetoric continues.

Now I expect to see answers to the 3 challenges posted to the three of you.

The rhetoric will end, now. Time for you guys to answer challenges you have been dodging.

I expect your next posts, on these issues, to be there, no where else.

[amilltruth]

kind of like you do core, when you dont want to deal with an issue you lock the thread down, and when asked in another thread you lock that thread down as well?

yes we are all aware you are the administrator here, but your holier than thou, I know everything, noone else has good grammer is utter nonsense,

[amilltruth]

and it kind of looks like Edge did a good job answering your challenge there didnt he? maybe us slow unegekatud amiliniusts du no sumthing aftur all,

[CoreIssue]

kind of like you do core, when you dont want to deal with an issue you lock the thread down, and when asked in another thread you lock that thread down as well?

yes we are all aware you are the administrator here, but your holier than thou, I know everything, noone else has good grammer is utter nonsense,
As expected, you launched into another person attack instead of replying to the challenges.

I warned you in an email and in those threads to rhetoric and such was going to end.

You failed to do so, just attacked again.

You get your wish. You are permanently banned.

[CoreIssue]

and it kind of looks like Edge did a good job answering your challenge there didnt he? maybe us slow unegekatud amiliniusts du no sumthing aftur all,
False accusations and spiritualizations are not answers.

And creating a second membership to try to be ready if he got banned for not answering the challenges got him banned.

Stupid trick to try. Did he think we would not know?

[WFTD]

Steer me to exactly what the challenge is. Maybe I'll have whack it.

[CoreIssue]

Steer me to exactly what the challenge is. Maybe I'll have whack it.
Sure.

But PLEASE, don't try to respond by leaping to the NT and putting the Amill spin on the verses, as if that tells me what those OT verses say.

That is totally fruitless and, to be honest, a waste of time.

I wan't to know what the posted passages say themselve. Literally.

With that said, here are the links:
Challenge 1 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3163)
Challenge 2 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3164)
Challenge 3 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3165)

Obviously, you have not done the broken record responses and refusals to answer they have.

[WFTD]

Steer me to exactly what the challenge is. Maybe I'll have whack it.
Sure.

But PLEASE, don't try to respond by leaping to the NT and putting the Amill spin on the verses, as if that tells me what those OT verses say.

That is totally fruitless and, to be honest, a waste of time.

I wan't to know what the posted passages say themselve. Literally.

With that said, here are the links:
Challenge 1 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3163)
Challenge 2 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3164)
Challenge 3 to amilltruth, Edge and kay-gee (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3165)

Obviously, you have not done the broken record responses and refusals to answer they have.

So, in your view what is the test of literalism. Is it that nothing is a shadow of the substance?

Let me get this straight. What you are asking of anyone here is to read Amos with only OT eyes. Just as the jews of the day did without any consideration of what we may now know is clarification as declared by the inspired NT writers? Is that what you are asking for in Challenge #1?

In Challenge #2 are you asking us/me to respond to this with a copy and paste view from you or do you want to take a chance with me that maybe there is an understanding that is just as sensible. After all none of us have reached perfect understanding, or at least I haven't.

And to Challenge #3, you want everyone to take it as literal as you do and you insist that we cannot use any NT references from the inspired writers to strengthen our view. Is that correct?

I just want to get these ground rules clarified.

If you are truly wanting to know where an amil believer stands then I can only suppose you are eager to hear their view. If you only want us to agree with you then where is the challenge?

[CoreIssue]

So, in your view what is the test of literalism. Is it that nothing is a shadow of the substance?
Wow! A fair question.

Thanks!

OK. The rule of interpretation and grammar is that all is literal, as stated, unless recognized as an accepted figurative expression that has a literal meaning, thus literal.

As in The Dragon is Satan because elsewhere he is literally given the title Dragon. So, a figurative expression that carries its own meaning is applied to Satan, laying that meaning on him.

But still literal because it is literally defined.

There is no such thing in the Bible as a figurative phrase whose meaning has to totally be figured out by revelation from the Holy Spirit. None.

The problem with Amillennialism, in example, is that it tags the figurative label on tons of verses and passages that have no reason to be declarated figurative. No reason at all.

Let me give examples:
1. Abrahamic Covenant. State in Genesis to be fulfilled via his physical seed. God says it is an eternal promise and WILL be literally fulfilled. Yest Amills attempt to move the covenant fulfillment from physical to spiritual seed. That makes God a liar since he says it will be fulfilled via Abraham's physical seed.
2. Daniel says Christ would die 'after' the 69th Week. The Hebrew word there means the immediate next event. That leaves the 7th Week future to the death.
3. Next Daniel says the Ruler/Prince would come with his men and destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. That happened in 70AD, literally. The Prince of Rome, who later became Emporer, came with his men destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Note here the Hebrew world for prince, used for Christ, is different for the one used for the prince who would come. The first means a prince of Israel and the second a Gentile prince.
4. Next Daniel says 'he' would covenant with many for 7 years and in the middle of the 7 would end the Temple sacrifices and offerings and set up AoD in the Holy of Holies, the Wing of the Temple. Has never happened in history. But we see it happening in Revelation, exactly has prophecied, literally.
5. 70th Week of Daniel says a Week. That literally was a Week of Years of 360 days each in ancient Israel. Revelation states two periods of 1,260 days, totally 2,250 days, which is 7 ancient Hebrew years. And at Mid the Temple events occur.
6. None of points 4 or 5 has happened literally. But is stated it will happen. Amills try to spiritualize away the meanings, offering nothing to prove it. But instead say you must now take all references to Israel and substitute Church now.
7. Revelation tells us of the Woman, Israel, the 12 Tribes, Israel, the Temple, Israel and on. Yet Amills just deny it is literal, without justification.

Just a handful of examples. There is zero reasons for saying these issues are not literal. They were written with literal words that have literal meanings that are in literal agreement with each other and thus have no literal reason to deny they are literal.

But literal will not abide with Amill doctrine. So, it is denied being literal because of Amill doctrine.

But Amills will not tolerate the notion their spin on the NT verses they attempt to demand are not being read correctly.

That is not justification for spiritualizing everything else. Simply reading those verses literally and correctly, leaving the misdefined words and read ins out, bring them into complete harmony with the prophecies, with all read literally.

So, zero justification for not reading literally means they MUST be read literally.
Let me get this straight. What you are asking of anyone here is to read Amos with only OT eyes.
False premise.

I am asking you to read the verses LITERALLY. God wrote those verses will all of history in mind. With his Total Plan Eyes. Thus they can be read as written.

And I do read them as written and find zero conflict with the NT.

Your spiritualizing the NT verse force you to spiritualize the OT verses. The domino effect.

And the domino effect should slam home you are getting the foundational issues wrong.

There is NO statement in