Another Amil Challenge

[CoreIssue]

Amil says the Millennial Kingdom is figurative and in Heaven, now. That at the Second Coming the earth is purged, remade into a new condition, and we enter Eternity.

Now, that cannot be reconciled with the following that talks about the Second Coming.

Notice it states that AFTER the Second Coming the nations that attacked Israel must come to Jerusalem, to the Temple and offer sacrifices and offerings.

That is totally incompatible with Amillennialism.

Zechariah 14

The LORD Comes and Reigns

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23074a)] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23077b)] and half to the western sea, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23077c)] in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23087d)] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 20 On that dayHOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=45&chapter=14&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-23090e)] in the house of the LORD Almighty.

[amilltruth]

zech 14 is talking about the First coming NOT second...

[Sid]

zech 14 is talking about the First coming NOT second...


9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.


Try again.

[CoreIssue]

Oh, really?

When did the nations gather against Jerusalem at the First Coming?

When did Christ engage in battle against them?

When did the Mount of Olives split apart under his feet?

When did the Holy Ones come with him?

Where is the water flowing out from Jerusalem?

How can the nations be required to come to the Temple in Jerusalem when there is none?

I notice you have not responded to my question on Isaiah 65 yet, either.

[amilltruth]

zech 14 is talking about the First coming NOT second...


9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.


Try again.


"Niether is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men , whereby we must be saved"
Acts 4:12
sounds like there is only one Lord now, and his name is the ONLY name.

[amilltruth]

core have no intention to, yes there are NT references to Everything in Zech 14, but it is a waste of time to discuss them with you.

vs 2 of ch 14 is obviously a reference to 70 ad. , cannot be armageddon because Jesus comes and saves Jerusalem at armagedon remember. if you think vs 2 is about armageddon how does the rest of the verse play out then?

just something for your readers to think about, goodbye now.

see ya at end time forum, oh thats right you wont go there, such a shame, I thought you would enjoy settin all us amillers right, and showing us how unbiblical we are, I mean you have the absolute truth right? should be easy for you then.

[CoreIssue]

zech 14 is talking about the First coming NOT second...


9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.


Try again.


"Niether is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men , whereby we must be saved"
Acts 4:12
sounds like there is only one Lord now, and his name is the ONLY name.
Dodge and dance.

There are many gods and many names on the earth today.

[CoreIssue]

core have no intention to, yes there are NT references to Everything in Zech 14, but it is a waste of time to discuss them with you.

vs 2 of ch 14 is obviously a reference to 70 ad. , cannot be armageddon because Jesus comes and saves Jerusalem at armagedon remember. if you think vs 2 is about armageddon how does the rest of the verse play out then?

just something for your readers to think about, goodbye now.

see ya at end time forum, oh thats right you wont go there, such a shame, I thought you would enjoy settin all us amillers right, and showing us how unbiblical we are, I mean you have the absolute truth right? should be easy for you then.
Absurd statement and now you run away because you know you cannot deal with the full context and statements of Zech 14.

Again you dodge and dance to avoid the direct questions about the content of what happens never having happened in history.

As stated, Amils cannot deal with this chapter.

[amilltruth]

core have no intention to, yes there are NT references to Everything in Zech 14, but it is a waste of time to discuss them with you.

vs 2 of ch 14 is obviously a reference to 70 ad. , cannot be armageddon because Jesus comes and saves Jerusalem at armagedon remember. if you think vs 2 is about armageddon how does the rest of the verse play out then?

just something for your readers to think about, goodbye now.

see ya at end time forum, oh thats right you wont go there, such a shame, I thought you would enjoy settin all us amillers right, and showing us how unbiblical we are, I mean you have the absolute truth right? should be easy for you then.
Absurd statement and now you run away because you know you cannot deal with the full context and statements of Zech 14.




Again you dodge and dance to avoid the direct questions about the content of what happens never having happened in history.

As stated, Amils cannot deal with this chapter.


and I said rightly about you, you will not deal with anything put to you. goodbye,

[CoreIssue]

and I said rightly about you, you will not deal with anything put to you. goodbye,

What? A claim based on opinion?

It is a claim totally out of context to the chapter. There is your answer.

As stated, Amils cannot deal with the simple reality of the words of the passages offered.

You have a limited set of verses that you quote over and over. Any effort to get you to deal with other verses results in running away.

[amilltruth]

core have no intention to, yes there are NT references to Everything in Zech 14, but it is a waste of time to discuss them with you.

vs 2 of ch 14 is obviously a reference to 70 ad. , cannot be armageddon because Jesus comes and saves Jerusalem at armagedon remember. if you think vs 2 is about armageddon how does the rest of the verse play out then?

just something for your readers to think about, goodbye now.

see ya at end time forum, oh thats right you wont go there, such a shame, I thought you would enjoy settin all us amillers right, and showing us how unbiblical we are, I mean you have the absolute truth right? should be easy for you then.
Absurd statement and now you run away because you know you cannot deal with the full context and statements of Zech 14.




Again you dodge and dance to avoid the direct questions about the content of what happens never having happened in history.

As stated, Amils cannot deal with this chapter.


and I said rightly about you, you will not deal with anything put to you. goodbye,

http://p072.ezboard.com/fendtimeforumfrm13.showMessage?topicID=146.topic

looks to me like amill does deal with it!!!!!!!

[CoreIssue]

Got news for you. I challenged Taylor on Rapture Ready and he ran away as well.

And I know Lenn Tanner as well.

They ramble on and never actual address what is said in chapter 14. None of which has ever occurred.

Spiritualizing and spinning verses to try to turn them into First Coming and about Egypt does not fly.

Just one example. It states the nations, all of them, that go up against Jerusalem will have to go to Jerusalem every year, go to the Temple and offer sacrfices and offerings.

Oooops! There is no Temple there now, to start with. Ain't happening. Never has happened. ............YET.

[amilltruth]

Got news for you. I challenged Taylor on Rapture Ready and he ran away as well.

And I know Lenn Tanner as well.

They ramble on and never actual address what is said in chapter 14. None of which has ever occurred.

Spiritualizing and spinning verses to try to turn them into First Coming and about Egypt does not fly.

Just one example. It states the nations, all of them, that go up against Jerusalem will have to go to Jerusalem every year, go to the Temple and offer sacrfices and offerings.

Oooops! There is no Temple there now, to start with. Ain't happening. Never has happened. ............YET.


and therein lies the ultimate rejection of your thinking, brother Christ made the ultimate sacrifice ONCE and for all, to believe that we are going to have to one day go back to offering sacrifices is absurd and flat out heresy,

but keep going, most people do not know that PREMILLENIALISM believes this and it is something they fight to the death over, the more you expose of it, the less I have to, keep going my friend.

the book of Hebrews couldn't be any more clearer, why do you insisit on going back to the weak elements of the Law? with its sacrifices to atone for sins in your MK?

[amilltruth]

trust me brother the only reason anyone runs away from you is because its fruitless talking with you, you will never address any issue put to you, you repeatedly talk down to people, you absolutly know everything, the Bible flat out says something and you turn right around and say it doesn't,

trust me no one runs from you because of your so called biblical authority you possess.

[CoreIssue]

and therein lies the ultimate rejection of your thinking, brother Christ made the ultimate sacrifice ONCE and for all, to believe that we are going to have to one day go back to offering sacrifices is absurd and flat out heresy,

but keep going, most people do not know that PREMILLENIALISM believes this and it is something they fight to the death over, the more you expose of it, the less I have to, keep going my friend.

the book of Hebrews couldn't be any more clearer, why do you insisit on going back to the weak elements of the Law? with its sacrifices to atone for sins in your MK?
You need to study up on the subject.

If you think the OT Mosaic Law is what is restored, in full, you are ignorant of the facts.

And it does nothing to negate Christ's sacrfice to say one will not get the Holy Spirit while in the flesh.

[CoreIssue]

trust me brother the only reason anyone runs away from you is because its fruitless talking with you, you will never address any issue put to you, you repeatedly talk down to people, you absolutly know everything, the Bible flat out says something and you turn right around and say it doesn't,

trust me no one runs from you because of your so called biblical authority you possess.
Fruitless, no. The lurkers are reading.

So even if no progress with you, they see you are not literal and are not providing any facts to back you.

Amazing you say the Bible 'flat out' says something when you are not reading it literally. Flat out means it says EXACTLY what the word mean, which is how I read it.

So, when it says, in Revelation, the MK comes after the Second Coming, that is a flat out statement.

[amilltruth]

theres only one problem, it doesnt say that in Rev, you might think it does, with your rules of grammer nonsense, that is your usual response to get out of something "RULES OF GRAMMER"

[amilltruth]

and therein lies the ultimate rejection of your thinking, brother Christ made the ultimate sacrifice ONCE and for all, to believe that we are going to have to one day go back to offering sacrifices is absurd and flat out heresy,

but keep going, most people do not know that PREMILLENIALISM believes this and it is something they fight to the death over, the more you expose of it, the less I have to, keep going my friend.

the book of Hebrews couldn't be any more clearer, why do you insisit on going back to the weak elements of the Law? with its sacrifices to atone for sins in your MK?
You need to study up on the subject.

If you think the OT Mosaic Law is what is restored, in full, you are ignorant of the facts.

And it does nothing to negate Christ's sacrfice to say one will not get the Holy Spirit while in the flesh.

iF ITS EVEN RESTORED "IN PART" its in violation of the NT, read the book of Heb especially chapter 9, I know you dont like to use the NT core but you cant ignore it,

"In that he saith, a new covenant, he hath made the FIRST OLD, NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY"
Heb. 8:13


do you deny you teach a return to OT sacrifices in the MK?

[amilltruth]

trust me brother the only reason anyone runs away from you is because its fruitless talking with you, you will never address any issue put to you, you repeatedly talk down to people, you absolutly know everything, the Bible flat out says something and you turn right around and say it doesn't,

trust me no one runs from you because of your so called biblical authority you possess.
Fruitless, no. The lurkers are reading.

So even if no progress with you, they see you are not literal and are not providing any facts to back you.

Amazing you say the Bible 'flat out' says something when you are not reading it literally. Flat out means it says EXACTLY what the word mean, which is how I read it.



So, when it says, in Revelation, the MK comes after the Second Coming, that is a flat out statement.


and as we have going on the other thread, your LITERAL ONLY approach makes you look ridiculous!!

Isaiah 40:3-4

explain to everyone how this was LITERALLY FULFILLED AGAIN!!!!

you do understand what literal means dont you?

explain to us dumb folks who dont know anything and dont know about your "RULES OF GRAMMER" garbage, HOW WAS THIS LITERALLY FULFILLED????????

[Ltanner09]

AmillTruth,

Just another example that scripture is NOT literal when THEY decide it isn't.

lit·er·al(ltr-l)
adj.
1. Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words.
2. Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.
3. Avoiding exaggeration, metaphor, or embellishment; factual; prosaic: a literal description; a literal mind.
4. Consisting of, using, or expressed by letters: literal notation.
5. Conforming or limited to the simplest, nonfigurative, or most obvious meaning of a word or words.

A real shame when the literalists can't be literal.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Core, questions:

Which desert was made straight?
Which highway is it?
Was every valley exalted?
Was every hill made low?
Was every mountain made low?
Were all the rough places made plain?

certainly you will tell us how the above was accomplished "literally"

[Ltanner09]

Amazing you say the Bible 'flat out' says something when you are not reading it literally. Flat out means it says EXACTLY what the word mean, which is how I read it.

So, when it says, in Revelation, the MK comes after the Second Coming, that is a flat out statement.


Too early in the year for heat stroke, Core.

Which verse "literally" states what you propose it does?

[amilltruth]

Len, its right there in Rev 23:5

"And immediatly after my 3rd coming, I will come back to earth and rule on Davids old worn out, used throne, after sitting on my own throne for thousands of years, because really that "old" one was the one that was really the one I was waiting to sit on, and I will rule on this sin-cursed earth for "one" thousand years. But after doing such a good job ruling with my rod of iron, and having everyone sacrificing animals again so they can be saved, so many people rebel against me you cant even number them, and I have to hide out in Old Jerusalem, wiating for God to come and rescue me"

Rev 23:5

we finally found it, the biblical verse that LITERALLY says what Premill "actually" believes.

Im glad i finally read that, now I know I was wrong all these years

[Ltanner09]

Speaking of animal sacrifices, I've never received a clear answer on just why pre mill sees them returning in their MK.

Some say it is because they will sin, by violating whatever ordinances are put into place in the MK.
But laws lead to sin and sin requires the blood of Christ for removal, not the blood of animals.

Pre Mill uses Eze CH 40-48 to demonstrate a return to "sin offering". I know they're "sin offerings" because the literal interpretation demands it.

Yet, some pre mill (when faced with this glaring contridiction) claim a return to animal sacrifices are a "memorial" for Christ's work on the cross.

But, I can't find that requirement in scripture. It's definitely not there... in a literal sense.

Nor can I find a New Testament requirement for the return of circumcision of the flesh.

Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

I do see where the building of the temple, in Ezeliel, was conditional:

11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Of course Israel was again disobedient and eventually called for the death of Christ.

Christ is now the cornerstone of the Temple, with believers as stones fitted together to make the new Temple:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The above is the, ahem, literal interpretation.

[amilltruth]

And yet, almost EVERY person i have talked to who claims that they believe in a Premill belief, do not even know that Premillennialism actually teaches this.

I have yet to see an answer to sacrificies in thier future earthly MK,other than they are for "memorials", thereby completely ignoring their "LITERAL-ONLY" interpretation.

Core and other hard line Premills do not seem to get that animal sacrifices were ONLY a type to point TOWARDS the future ultimate sacrifice which was Christ!!!!!

to even hint that God will return to a system of mankind having to offer "SIN-OFFERINGS" to make reconciliation for anyone, COMPLETELY NULIFIES WHAT CHRIST DID ON THE CROSS.

Ezek. 45:17

".......he shall prepare the SIN OFFERING.....to make reconciliation for the house of Israel"

to me this was my last straw with premill belief and one of the many reasons why I abandoned it, as well as MANY other just outright contradicitons you have to create for Premillennialism to work.

[amilltruth]

CoreIssue, you are a smart man, why dont you explain to everyone what the purpose of these sacrifices are in the MK?

and you think you can do it without your popular phrase that you use to get out of EVERY situation you cant deal with. "RULE OF GRAMMER", ?

lets start trying the "RULE OF GOD", shall we?

[CoreIssue]

Well, you guys did ten posts in a row and never addressed what the passages literally said.

You said, in essence, you don't like what they said, so you will not read them literally.

You have nothing to base your spiritualized meanings upon. The verses you keep quoting and interpreting are based on your spiritualized readings of other verses.

Thus, foundationless arguments.

You cannot even deal with the reasons such as 'new' in Revelation means brand new while in Isaiah itm means refreshed.

[InTheWind]

Are We Really in the Millennium Now?

Dr. David R. Reagan
http://www.lamblion.com/images/2002/EndTimeEvents.jpg

Don't let the title of this article scare you. You don't have to be a space scientist to understand the points I'm going to make. I know that words like Amillennial are downright scary, and I realize that most people don't know the difference in a millennium and a millipede.

I hope you will stay with me and not let your eyes glaze over, because what I have to say in this article is very important. It has to do with the way you view the end times and the way you live your life right here and now.

Some Definitions

Let's begin with some definitions to clear the air. The word, millennium, means one thousand years. It is a combination of two Latin words mille (thousand) and annum (years).

The odd term, amillennial, literally means "no one thousand years." In the Greek language one of the ways of negating something is to put the letter "a" in front of it. It's like using the letters "un" in English for example, ethical versus unethical. Some crazy theologian somewhere along the way came up with the idea of negating two Latin words with the Greek method of putting an "a" in front of them, and he came up with the highfalutin word, amillennial.

So, an amillennialist is a person who does not believe in a future one thousand year reign of Jesus. Now, that's simple enough, isn't it?

I happen to know a lot about this particular end time viewpoint, because I grew up with it. It was the only view I knew about until I was 30 years old (which, come to think of it, was almost 30 years ago!).
A Significant Viewpoint

The viewpoint is a very important one because it is the predominant concept of end time events in Christendom today. It is the official view of the Roman Catholic Church, and it is the doctrine that is held by the majority of mainline Protestant denominations.

The view holds that the current Church Age will end abruptly with the appearance of Jesus for the redeemed. At that point the redeemed will be resurrected in spiritual bodies, the unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the material universe will cease to exist, and the redeemed will take up residence eternally with God in Heaven. The viewpoint is illustrated below.
http://www.lamblion.com/images/1999/0506-1.jpg
The amillennial view was developed in 400 A.D. by St. Augustine. It was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church in 431 A.D. at the Council of Ephesus.
The Pre-existing View

When this view was originally presented by St. Augustine, it caused a considerable stir because it differed so drastically from the premillennial view that had been the orthodox doctrine up to that time. That view is illustrated below:
http://www.lamblion.com/images/1999/0415-2.jpg
Premillennial literally means "before the thousand years." The title refers to the fact that this viewpoint places the return of Jesus before a future one thousand year reign upon the earth.

As you can see by comparing the charts, there is considerable difference between the two viewpoints. The premillennial view that had been held by the early Church Fathers did not envision history ending with the completion of the Church Age. Instead, the Church Age would be followed by a seven year period called the Tribulation, and this time of unparalled horror on earth would ultimately give way to the thousand year reign of Jesus. Another significant difference is that according to the premillennial view, the redeemed would live eternally in glorified bodies on a new earth.

Augustine's view, which was based on a spiritualization of Scripture, was quickly adopted by the Roman Catholic Church because it gave enhanced importance to the Church. It enabled the Church to claim that it was the fulfillment of all the kingdom promises in the Bible, and therefore it had the right to rule over all the nations of the earth.

It also enabled the Church to claim that it was the new Israel, replacing the old Israel composed of the Jewish people. The Jews were dismissed as a people divorced by God. Their kingdom promises had been inherited by the true Israel, the Church.

The new view also laid the foundation for the head of the Church to claim that he was the "Vicar of Christ" on earth that is, the representative of Christ's reigning authority over the planet.
The Problems

Augustine's new view obviously provided some philosophical advantages to a Church that was struggling to assert itself. But the view raised some very serious theological questions because it so clearly violated what the Bible literally taught about the end times. Let's consider some of those questions.

1) Where is the Millennium? - This is a rather obvious question, but Augustine's answer was surprising. Instead of denying outright that there would ever be a Millennium, he argued instead that the Millennium began at the Cross and would continue a thousand years until the return of Jesus. Later, when the Lord failed to return after a thousand years, amillennialists simply spiritualized the thousand years to mean an indefinite period of time from the Cross to the Second Coming.

Note carefully that Augustine did not deny the Millennium; he simply redefined it to mean the spiritual reign of Christ through the Church during the Church Age.

That means we are in the Millennium now and have been for almost 2,000 years, and that creates a major problem for amillennialists. For you see, when you read the Bible's prophecies about the Millennium, there is no correspondence between them and the reality of the world in which we live.

We live in a world that is rotten to the core. The Bible says that during the Millennium, "the earth will be flooded with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9; Habakkuk 2:14). The nations of the world today are all in rebellion against God and His Anointed One. The prophecies say that during the Millennium the nations will all be in subjection to the Lord and will glorify His name (Psalm 22:27-31). If the Lord is reigning over the nations of the world today, He is doing a very poor job of it. Isaiah says that when the Lord reigns, the world will be characterized by peace, righteousness, and justice (Isaiah 9:7).

The amillennial response to this is usually to argue that we are in the Millennium because the Holy Spirit is in the world restraining evil. If the Holy Spirit were not here, things would be much worse. Thus, relatively speaking, we are in the Millennium.

But the Bible doesn't speak in relative terms about the Millennium. It states absolutely that there will be international peace, justice, righteousness and lovingkindness (Hosea 2:18-20).

2) Where is the Tribulation? - Augustine gave a startling response to this question. He said that we are simultaneously in both the Millennium and the Tribulation! We are in the Millennium because the Holy Spirit is restraining evil, but we are also in the Tribulation because the Church will suffer persecution until the Lord returns.

When it was pointed out that the Bible says the Tribulation will last only seven years, Augustine dismissed the number as symbolic. He argued that the number seven represents a complete period of time, and therefore it represents the period from the Cross to the Second Coming.

The book of Revelation says that the Tribulation will be a special, concentrated period of the pouring out of God's wrath. In fact, it says that during the first 3´ years, over one-half the population of the earth will die! The world has never experienced calamities of such magnitude.

3) Is Satan Bound? - This is a very critical question because the Bible says that Satan will be bound at the beginning of the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-3).

Augustine argued that Satan was bound at the Cross. I was making this point at a conference one day when a member of the audience suddenly jumped to his feet and said, "Brother, let me tell you something. If Satan was bound at the Cross, then he was bound with a very long chain, because he is always gnawing on my leg!"

Let's keep in mind that there is a sense in which Satan has always been bound. He is not omnipotent. He is not free to do anything he desires. The book of Job reveals that Satan could not touch Job without God's permission.

It is true that Satan was further bound by the Cross. The reason is that since that time believers in Jesus have received the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, enabling them to be overcomers in their combat with Satan. The Word says that "He who is within us is greater than he who is in the world" (I John 4:4).

But the limitations which the Cross placed on Satan do not constitute the binding of Satan that the Scriptures say will take place at the beginning of the Millennium. Revelation says Satan will be bound so that he can no longer "deceive the nations" (Revelation 20:3). How can anyone argue that the nations are not deceived today? They are definitely deceived, and thus Satan is not bound. He is still the "ruler of this world" (John 16:11).

4) Where are the Two Resurrections? - The Bible says there will be two resurrections, one of the just and another of the unjust (Acts 24:15). It further states that these two resurrections will be separated by a thousand years (Revelation 20:5-6). The amillennial view has only one resurrection, occurring at the end of the Church Age.

Augustine "solved" this problem by spiritualizing the first resurrection. He said the first resurrection is a spiritual one that occurs when a person accepts Jesus as Lord and is born again. The second resurrection is the one that will occur when the Lord returns and everyone, both the just and the unjust, will be resurrected from the dead.

This exercise in imaginative interpretation shows what happens when you start spiritualizing. Scripture starts meaning whatever you want it to mean.

5) Where is the New Earth? - Augustine also spiritualized this concept. He argued that the "new earth" mentioned in Revelation 21 was simply a symbol for Heaven.

But the Bible teaches that the earth is eternal. Psalm 148:6 says that the creation has been established forever and that the Lord has decreed it will never pass away. Psalm 78:69 says the Lord has founded the earth forever. In Luke 21:33 Jesus said "heaven and earth will pass away," but He meant that in the sense that Peter tells us that the heavens and earth will be consumed with fire in order to be replaced by "a new heavens and a new earth" (2 Peter 3:10-13).

The Bible never speaks of the material universe coming to an end. Rather, it promises over and over that this earth, including the plant and animal kingdoms, will be redeemed. It is all going to be restored to its original perfection. Read Isaiah 11:6-9 and Romans 8:18-23.

Revelation 21 tells us point blank that the redeemed are going to live eternally in a New Jerusalem located on a new earth. Further, it says that God is going to come down to the new earth and live with us. The Bible never speaks of us living eternally with God in Heaven. To spiritualize all this is to make a mockery of Scripture.

6) Is God finished with the Jews? - Amillennialists claim that "God washed His hands of the Jews" because of their unbelief, and He therefore has no purpose left for them.

This is a pernicious doctrine that has led to much anti-Semitism. The fact of the matter is that the Jews are still the Chosen People of God, and the Lord intends to fulfill every promise He has ever made to them as a nation.

The book of Romans makes all this very clear. In Romans 3:1-4 Paul asks a rhetorical question: "Has the unfaithfulness of the Jews nullified God's faithfulness to them?" For almost 1,700 years the Church has said "Yes!" What does Paul say? His answer is, "May it never be!"

Likewise, in Romans 11:1 Paul asks, "Has God rejected His people?" Again, for almost two thousand years the Church has answered, "Yes!" But what does Paul say in response to his question? He says, "May it never be!" And then he adds, "God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew" (Romans 11:2). He then proceeds to explain that a great remnant of the Jews will be saved in the end times (Romans 9:27; 11:25-32).

The Jewish people have been set aside as a result of God's discipline. But He has not forgotten them. In Isaiah 49:16 the Lord says He could never forget the Jewish people because He has them tattooed on the palms of His hands! In Jeremiah 31:35-37 the Lord asks, "When will the offspring of Israel cease to be a nation before Me?" His answer is that they will continue to be special in His eyes until the fixed order of the universe departs or until the day all the heavens and all the oceans have been fully explored. In Romans 11:29 Paul says that the "gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." And in Romans 9:1-5 he speaks of promises to the Jews that God fully intends to fulfill.

That's the reason the Jews are being regathered from the four corners of the world right now. It is one of the greatest miracles of history. The Lord intends to provoke them to repentance by bringing all the nations of the world against them (Zechariah 12:1-3). When they become totally desperate, they will look to the Lord for their salvation. That is when they will repent. They will "look on Him whom they have pierced, and they will mourn" (Zechariah 12: 10). And on that glorious day, a fountain of salvation will be opened for the house of David (Zechariah 13:1).

God will then establish these believing Jews as the prime nation of the world during the Millennium, and through them He will once again bless all the nations on earth (Isaiah 60-62).

7) Has the Church fulfilled the kingdom promises? - There is no doubt that the Church is God's kingdom on the earth today. But the Bible does not teach that the concept of the kingdom of God is limited solely to the Church.

I believe a review of Scripture shows that God has always had a kingdom upon this earth, but it has been manifested in different ways. The kingdom was originally expressed in the Creation itself (Psalm 93:1-2), through its perfect obedience to God's will. When the Creation was corrupted through the sin of Man, the kingdom became expressed in the lives of the Patriarchs who, like Job, responded obediently in faith to God's will. The kingdom became focused in a more tangible manner after the call of Abraham and the emergence of the nation of Israel (Exodus 19:6).

Since Pentecost, the kingdom has been expressed in the institution of the Church (Colossians 1:13). But the Bible promises different expressions of the kingdom in the future first, in the form of a thousand year rule of Jesus upon this earth (Revelation 2:26-27), and second, in the form of an eternal rule of God upon a new earth (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

The kingdom is past, present, and future. It is currently expressed in the Church, but it is like a rose in the bud, yet to bloom in its full glory. The kingdom has always been coming, and it will continue to come until God's will is done perfectly on earth as it is in Heaven. Even during the Millennial reign of Jesus, the kingdom will be coming, for the Bible teaches that rebellion will be lurking in the hearts of men (Revelation 20:7-10). The consummation of the kingdom will not come until all enemies of God have been subdued. That will occur at the end of the Millennial reign of Jesus, at which time He will surrender the kingdom to His Father, and God Himself will reign forever over a redeemed creation (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
Summary

The amillennial view is based on a spiritualizing approach to Scripture which contends that the Bible does not mean what it says. It is a consistent view for theological liberals who also spiritualize the creation week, the miracles, the virgin birth, and the resurrection of Jesus. But what is astounding is the number of conservative Christians who endorse this view. In effect, they take the position that the Bible always means what it says unless< it is talking about the Second Coming of Jesus!

The amillennial view does not stand the test of either the Scriptures or reality.

How can anyone truly believe that we are currently living in the Millennium? Society is disintegrating before our eyes, and the Bible says it will get worse the closer we come to the Lord's return (2 Timothy 1-5).
How can anyone truly believe that Satan is bound today? The Bible says "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
How can anyone truly believe that the Church is reigning with Christ over the nations? Try telling that to persecuted and suffering Christians all over the world.
How could anyone truly believe God has no purpose left for the Jews? After 2,000 years of dispersion all over the world, they are being regathered to Israel in what Jeremiah calls a miracle greater than the deliverance from Egyptian captivity (Jeremiah 16:14-15).
Let's stop playing games with God's Word. Let's allow it to mean what it says. Bible prophecy is really not hard to understand. It's just hard to believe. If you will believe it, you will understand it.
Conclusion

Does it really make any difference what you believe about the end times? Many Christians like to say, "I don't know what is going to happen, so I've decided to be a pan-millennialist' because I figure it will all pan-out in the end." That's a copout. It reflects the attitude of a person who is too lazy to search the Scriptures to see what God has promised in the future.

Certainly it matters what you believe about Bible prophecy. It matters what you believe about anything, because your beliefs determine the way you live. I grew up in an amillennial church, and the result was that I lived with little hope because I did not know about God's glorious promises concerning the future. I never looked forward to the Lord's return because I had no idea what was going to happen when He burst from the skies. I had no eternal perspective, and I had no appreciation of the continuing significance of the Jewish people.

When I began to study and believe Bible prophecy, my hope surged, and I was motivated as never before to live a holy life. I began yearning for the Lord's return because I became dissatisfied with this world. And I developed an even greater appreciation of God's unfathomable grace as I marveled over His continuing love for Israel.

What you believe about Bible prophecy has no effect on where you are going to spend eternity; it is not related to your justification. But it has an immediate impact upon your sanctification, upon how you walk before the Lord in this life. As the apostle John put it: "Everyone who has his hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure" (1 John3:3).

[Ltanner09]

6) Is God finished with the Jews? - Amillennialists claim that "God washed His hands of the Jews" because of their unbelief, and He therefore has no purpose left for them.

If pre mill is going to quote a source,instead of using scripture on their own here, at least get a source that's knowlegeable in amill.

Amill dosn't teach that God has washed His hands of the Jews. The Jews, like every other nationality, has the opportunity to accept, or reject, salvation and receive the eternal promises from God.

[CoreIssue]

6) Is God finished with the Jews? - Amillennialists claim that "God washed His hands of the Jews" because of their unbelief, and He therefore has no purpose left for them.

If pre mill is going to quote a source,instead of using scripture on their own here, at least get a source that's knowlegeable in amill.

Amill dosn't teach that God has washed His hands of the Jews. The Jews, like every other nationality, has the opportunity to accept, or reject, salvation and receive the eternal promises from God.
Semantical game playing, Lenn.

Amill believe God is done with Jews as his covenant chosen nation.

That is false. They will be restored as THE covenant nation when the Church Age ends.

Gentiles are not the House of Israel or Judah, in the New Covenant spoken of in Hebrews. And note, Paul says that covenant is future, not present tense.

Daniel shows the 70th Week has not happened yet. And it is to the nation of Israel.

John does not speak of the Church, in Revelation, he speaks of the Tribes of Israel, the Woman is Israel and so on. All Israel. Not Church.

Ezekiel tells us of a future Temple not yet build.

Zech. speaks of a future Temple.

And so on. God is not done with Israel as the chosen covenant nation.

[CoreIssue]

If pre mill is going to quote a source,instead of using scripture on their own here, at least get a source that's knowlegeable in amill.
Come on, Lenn.

Catholicism is the founder and father of Amillennialism. To deny that is to deny history.

[Ltanner09]

Semantical game playing, Lenn.

Amill believe God is done with Jews as his covenant chosen nation.

That is false. They will be restored as THE covenant nation when the Church Age ends.

Amill is teaching what Jesus stated:

Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

It is pre mill who ignores that verse, then ignores the fact that all in Christ are now Israel.
The prophecy in Hos 11:1 was fulfilled in Christ, as pointed out in MATT.

Gentiles are not the House of Israel or Judah, in the New Covenant spoken of in Hebrews. And note, Paul says that covenant is future, not present tense

Daniel shows the 70th Week has not happened yet. And it is to the nation of Israel.

Pre mill needs to insert a 2,000+ year gap in the 70 weeks to make their doctrine work.

Jesus made it quite clear that He was fulfilling the 70th week.

John does not speak of the Church, in Revelation, he speaks of the Tribes of Israel, the Woman is Israel and so on. All Israel. Not Church.

The entire book of Revelation is for the church, the body of Christ.

Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Ezekiel tells us of a future Temple not yet build.

It was future from Ezekiel;'s writing and I posted the verses that made the temple conditional, that Israel failed to comply with.

The New Testament tells us that WE are the temple, not a building made with hands.

Zech. speaks of a future Temple.

Literally? Chapter, verse?

And so on. God is not done with Israel as the chosen covenant nation.

Since you don't understand what Israel signifies, you will cointinue to look to the middle east.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mt 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Israel is not a nation of Jews in the middle east, Israel is Christ and all who are in Him. That is the holy nation.

[CoreIssue]

Semantical game playing, Lenn.

Amill believe God is done with Jews as his covenant chosen nation.

That is false. They will be restored as THE covenant nation when the Church Age ends.

Amill is teaching what Jesus stated:

Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

It is pre mill who ignores that verse, then ignores the fact that all in Christ are now Israel.
The prophecy in Hos 11:1 was fulfilled in Christ, as pointed out in MATT.

Totally ignoring Hebrews speaking of the future New Covenant.

Totally assuming that the taking away is permanent, not temporary, and that Israel will not be restored.

You believe this in defiance of the OT pophecies, Revelation and Paul stating Israel will be restored.

Jesus also said to watch for the olive tree to come back to life and once more bear fruit.

You ignore that.

Gentiles are not the House of Israel or Judah, in the New Covenant spoken of in Hebrews. And note, Paul says that covenant is future, not present tense

Daniel shows the 70th Week has not happened yet. And it is to the nation of Israel.

Pre mill needs to insert a 2,000+ year gap in the 70 weeks to make their doctrine work.

Jesus made it quite clear that He was fulfilling the 70th week.

Again, dodging the point the New Covenant is FUTURE tense to Hebrews and not to Gentiles.

John does not speak of the Church, in Revelation, he speaks of the Tribes of Israel, the Woman is Israel and so on. All Israel. Not Church.

The entire book of Revelation is for the church, the body of Christ.

Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Try again. Misreading the archaic English of the KJV does not make it says what you want it to say.
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2022:16;&version=31;#fen-NIV-31081a)] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Doesn't say Revelation is about the Church.

It isn't. Tribes of Israel are physical.

Ezekiel tells us of a future Temple not yet build.

It was future from Ezekiel;'s writing and I posted the verses that made the temple conditional, that Israel failed to comply with.

The New Testament tells us that WE are the temple, not a building made with hands.

No. You didn't. It was not conditional.

Zech. speaks of a future Temple.

Literally? Chapter, verse?

Journeying to Jerusalem to offer sacrfices and offerings? That requires a Temple.

The Two Witnesses are in the future Temple in Revelation.

Daniel speaks of the future Temple in the 70th week.

And so on. God is not done with Israel as the chosen covenant nation.

Since you don't understand what Israel signifies, you will cointinue to look to the middle east.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mt 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Israel is not a nation of Jews in the middle east, Israel is Christ and all who are in Him. That is the holy nation.

It does not say that. Read all of Hosea.

It says as he called Israel out of Egypt to be his people he called Christ, his son, out of Egypt.

Israel was the name of a descendent of Abraham who sired the nation of Israel. Christ is a member of that nation.

It never says Christ is Israel. Ever.

It never says, anywhere in the Bible, all in Christ are Israel.

It says the Body of Christ is composed of Israel AND Church. TWO heirs, not one.

[CoreIssue]

Again, you refuse to go through the Isaiah and Zech verses because you cannot get around the fact it shows life, death, birth, building, Temple and such in the future.

[amilltruth]

core,

Israel was the name of a descendent of Abraham who sired the nation of Israel"
It never says, anywhere in the Bible, all in Christ are Israel
It says the Body of Christ is composed of Israel AND Church. TWO heirs, not one



so you mean Israel was the "seed" of Abraham, correct?

[amilltruth]

core,
why dont you tell us what you think this means?

"Now to Abraham and his 'seed' were the promises made, He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And if ye be Christ's, THEN are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" Gal 3:16,29

looks to me like those that are Christ's are heirs to the promise given to Abraham.

let me ask you something core?

"ARE YOU CHRIST'S" ?

[amilltruth]

"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, know ye therefore that, THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM"

gAL. 3:6-7

dont you hate it core when the Bible "literally" contradicts everything you just said!

[amilltruth]

my goodness Paul just disagrees with you all over the place, "literally"

"That the GENTILES should be "FELLOWHEIRS", and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Eph. 3:6

brother, you were born in the wrong millenium, you needed to live back in Paul's day, so you could correct him on his wrong theology!

[Ltanner09]

It does not say that. Read all of Hosea.

It says as he called Israel out of Egypt to be his people he called Christ, his son, out of Egypt.

Read slower, Core:

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Israel was the name of a descendent of Abraham who sired the nation of Israel. Christ is a member of that nation.

It never says Christ is Israel. Ever.

Matt 2:15 directly connects the calling of Jesus (His Son) out of Egypt with Hos 11:1.

It never says, anywhere in the Bible, all in Christ are Israel.

Jacob was called Israel, his seed was called Israel.

Christ is the seed of the true Israel of God, children of the spirit, children of faith.
Not children of national origin.

It says the Body of Christ is composed of Israel AND Church. TWO heirs, not one.

Joint heirs, joined together, not separate.
Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

One means one, not two..... literally.

[amilltruth]

tanner,

that "literal" thing will get them everytime, I mean its the number one foundation on which they build their entire doctrine. you can see how a literal-ONLY approach can cause so much disregard of the word of God.

these verses 'LITERALLY' contradict everything he just said , but instead of complying to what the BIBLE actually, literally says, nope, one must STILL hold out to the second foundation of there doctrine, which is a complete distinction between church and Israel, cannot mean the same noway no how,

even though the bible causes a direct contradiction between their #1 foundation and thier #2 foundation,

and people still cling to dispensationalism, as if that is thier bible, and not the bible itself. Seems to me if he would just read it, it would explain everything,

I mean how much more "LITERAL" can these passages be?

[InTheWind]

let me ask you something core?

"ARE YOU CHRIST'S" ?

Warning, knock off the insults or your out of here.:grr:
I haven`t seen you guyss answer any of the question presented to you, as with most false doctrine supporters you just dodge around the facts and post what you want too believe.
There is so much basic bible facts that disprove your theory but you refuse to answer anything you don`t like.
I posted a article that showed many reasons you are wrong and all you said was it was from a bad source.
This is getting old to watch. :nod:

[amilltruth]

let me ask you something core?

"ARE YOU CHRIST'S" ?

Warning, knock off the insults or your out of here.:grr:
I haven`t seen you guyss answer any of the question presented to you, as with most false doctrine supporters you just dodge around the facts and post what you want too believe.
There is so much basic bible facts that disprove your theory but you refuse to answer anything you don`t like.
I posted a article that showed many reasons you are wrong and all you said was it was from a bad source.
This is getting old to watch. :nod:


by "IN CHRIST" you think I am questioning someones salvation????????

it simply means, if you would have read the post that if you are "IN CHRIST", you are Abrahams seed, and you will recieve the promises given to Abraham, nothing more, how could you not get that from what I posted?


IN the Wind, we answer absolutly every question put to us, IT IS CORE WHO WILL NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS, and dodges around the facts, and posts what he believes.

what are these "basic bible" facts that disprove us? surely you are following the Isreal of God thread as well, what BIBLICAL FACTS are we "LITERALLY" missing here?

and who is refusing to answer something they dont like? are you kidding here?

you can post all the articles you want to prove what you believe, trust me so can we, but if its what man has written and not the BIBLE, then what good is it?

If core would answer the questions put to him, we would not have to repeat them again and again, thereby making it old to watch!!

Maybe you can give core a hand and tell us what these verses mean then????

[amilltruth]

and just like Ltanner said, when the heat from the bible gets to much, solve it by throwing out warnings and get rid of em, so as to not have to deal with it.


thanks for proving him right.

[InTheWind]

and just like Ltanner said, when the heat from the bible gets to much, solve it by throwing out warnings and get rid of em, so as to not have to deal with it.


thanks for proving him right.


This is the kind of attitude i`m talking about, knock it off, if you get banned by me it will be because of the rude remarks not because someone disagrees with you.
Play nice or don`t play. :nod:

[amilltruth]

ok Wind lets stick to the bible here then,

can YOU try and answer these questions then?

[InTheWind]

I`m not going to put up with this badgering by you guys, one more remark and i`m putting you guys on hold and Core can allow you back if he wants.:nod:

[amilltruth]

Core brought this on himself, I didnt even want to stay in here and debate him, cause I have seen what his idea of it is, and he has not changed, but he had to persist with it so he has to deal with it.

he wants to say we believe in heresy, lets see if he can back up what he claims from the bible,so far he is failing miserably,

like I said before, I wasnt going to stick around and go head to head with him, but if that is what he insists then fine, but as anyone who is reading these posts can see, it is HE who will not address direct questions and dodge and dance around issues he doesnt like, trust me every lurker you have here sees that, as I did, years ago when he did the same thing at RR.

[amilltruth]

how is asking you to explain a simple scripture badgering?????

[Ltanner09]

I haven`t seen you guyss answer any of the question presented to you, as with most false doctrine supporters you just dodge around the facts and post what you want too believe.
There is so much basic bible facts that disprove your theory but you refuse to answer anything you don`t like.

I've addressed the questions.

Pre mill continually points to Isa and Zech in support of a 1000 year earthly reign after the 2nd coming. Not one of those books literally describes what you claim.

But I'll humor you and go along. Which verse in Isa 65 describes, literally, any of the following:

The 2nd coming
Christ ruling from an earthly throne
Christ ruling for 1,000 years.

It isn't there, yet pre mill keeps pointing to it.

Now Zech 14:

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Tha above is not the 2nd coming. Joel 3 is clear that AT the 2nd coming Egypt will be desolate:

Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim.

Joe 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Using Zech 14 to describe a MK after the coming would mean conditions are placed on desolate Egypt, that if they don't worship they will be made desolate.



Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The above is not speaking to a MK after the 2nd coming.

Isa 65 is describing a child at 100 years old, meaning:

Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus instructed those around him that they must humble themselves as children to enter the kingdom. No matter the age of the one that converts, he becomes as a child.

but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

A sinner, even if he lives to be 100 is accursed without Christ.

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days

All in Christ are as children.

[InTheWind]

Because i don`t want in this debate, i am asking you too quit the smart remarks and debate nice. If you have a beef with CoreIssue you take it up with him don`t start cutting down the board and people because they don`t agree with you.
CoreIssue isn`t here right now to debate with you so let it go until he comes on and stop arguing with me.

[amilltruth]

I haven`t seen you guyss answer any of the question presented to you, as with most false doctrine supporters you just dodge around the facts and post what you want too believe.
There is so much basic bible facts that disprove your theory but you refuse to answer anything you don`t like.
I posted a article that showed many reasons you are wrong and all you said was it was from a bad source.


and yet you will make a comment like this and when pressed to back it up, you dont want in on the debate?
I will respect that if you dont, but if you dont want someone to respond to anything, why post it?

[InTheWind]

This thread is locked due to your disrespect to the board and me, i don`t have to argue anything with you.

[CoreIssue]

I agree with ITW on locking the thread. You guys are doing nothing but repeating the same statement over and over.

You did not address the full passages of Isaiah or Zech. You threw out a couple of comments and avoided the rest of what was said.

Then you have the nerve to defy a Mod and try to restart the argument elsewhere, again repeating your tired old statement.

You were answered. You did not answer challenges to you, except if you consider a foundationless statement an answer.

Nothing on it saying there will be death, birth and such. Only comments on New Earth, New Heaven and 100 year old kids.

Total avoidance of the total context of the passage.

In the links Sid sent me, you did the same thing on the other board when challenged. Lenn, you and Taylor did the same thing on RR when challenged.

That is the sum total of your replies. Always has been and alway will be.

If this thread got opened again, and I posted all of Isaiah 65, commenting on every verse, you would not address each point in a response, but again start jumping away, back to your handful of out of context verses.

If you guys can promise to address me, point for point, for the whole post, of what I would post if I reopened the thread, I will consider it.

Email me if you can do that.

But if I reopen it and you don't keep that promise, you are done here.