An Amil Challenge

[CoreIssue]

Amillennialism has a shopping cart and shotgun approach to defending its theology.

But there are issues in the Bible it cannot cope with, thus they just avoid them.

Here is one.

To any Amil reading, when does this take place and where?
Isaiah 65
New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2065&version=31#fen-NIV-18918a)] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

Not Heaven. There is no death, birth, building homes and such in Heaven.

Not in the past. Never happened.

Not in the present.

What does that leave? The future before Eternity, on this earth.

And don't try to leverage the New Heaven and Earth statement. The Hebrew word also means a remade, refreshed and renewed earth.

I have never found an Amil that can deal with this passage.

[Sid]

Can you point us to any era in World History where satan was bound?

For that matter, when was Isaiah 11:6-9 fulfilled?



6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[amilltruth]

Amillennialism has a shopping cart and shotgun approach to defending its theology.

But there are issues in the Bible it cannot cope with, thus they just avoid them.

Here is one.

To any Amil reading, when does this take place and where?
Isaiah 65
New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2065&version=31#fen-NIV-18918a)] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

Not Heaven. There is no death, birth, building homes and such in Heaven.

Not in the past. Never happened.

Not in the present.

What does that leave? The future before Eternity, on this earth.

And don't try to leverage the New Heaven and Earth statement. The Hebrew word also means a remade, refreshed and renewed earth.

I have never found an Amil that can deal with this passage.



coreissue, you have got some serious problems dude!!!!


Isaiah 65:17
"For behold i crerate NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH"

the only other time in the bible this is talked about is in Rev

"And i saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH for the """"FIRST"""" HEAVEN AND THE """""FIRST""""" EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY, and there was no more sea"
Rev. 21:1


Now according to you and your twisted theology, there are 3 NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTHS!!!!!!

1. the one were in NOW
2. the NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH that you believe is the earthly MK per ISA. 65:17

3. the 3rd NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH that John describes in Rev.


the problem is John said in Rev. that the "FIRST" one had passed away and the one coming then (Rev. 21) is the next one, IF YOUR THINKING IS CORRECT WOULDN,T JOHN BE SAYING

"And i saw a new heaven and a new earth for the SECOND heaven and the SECOND earth were passed away, and there was no more sea"??????

Isa. places something in the context of the NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH and the bible only makes that statement one other place, AND YOU SAY ITS UP TO ME TO PROVE THATS NOT WHEN IT TAKES PLACE????????????????

I watched you try and argue over at RR for years and you try and make yourself out to be smarter than everyone else, YOU SHOW ME ANOTHER USEAGE IN THE BIBLE THAT I CAN APPLY THE PASSAGE IN ISAIAH TO A NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH AND I WILL PUT IT THERE,

problem is my bible only mentions ONE new heaven and new earth, maybe yours says something different, but have it there, brother!

[CoreIssue]

So, there will birth and death in Eternity? There will be building of homes, planting or crops and so on?

You REALLY want to claim that?

Or did you not bother reading past the those words you are dwelling on?

All you are doing is proving my repeated statement the Amil practice Shopping Cart Theology. Meaning only using the verses they want and turning a blind eye to the rest.

Now, back up and deal with what the passage says, all of it, and stop leaping to other places on other issues as if that proves your case. Deal with the context here.

[CoreIssue]

Can you point us to any era in World History where satan was bound?

For that matter, when was Isaiah 11:6-9 fulfilled?



6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Satan is not bound. We know that.

And Isaiah 11 is more the issues as in Isaiah 65. And again things Amils cannot deal with.

[amilltruth]

So, there will birth and death in Eternity? There will be building of homes, planting or crops and so on?

You REALLY want to claim that?

Or did you not bother reading past the those words you are dwelling on?

All you are doing is proving my repeated statement the Amil practice Shopping Cart Theology. Meaning only using the verses they want and turning a blind eye to the rest.

Now, back up and deal with what the passage says, all of it, and stop leaping to other places on other issues as if that proves your case. Deal with the context here.

and you cant deal with the fact that everything from Isa 65:17-25 is in the context of the New Earth!!!


agian how many NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH's does the bible describe?

mine only has 2 (Rev 21:1), how many does yours have and where are the scriptures to prove it.

[CoreIssue]

and you cant deal with the fact that everything from Isa 65:17-25 is in the context of the New Earth!!!


agian how many NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH's does the bible describe?

mine only has 2 (Rev 21:1), how many does yours have and where are the scriptures to prove it.

Dodge and dance. You did not address the cited issues that will not be on the New Earth in Eternity.

And you have nothing to justify your demand that phrase is limited to future Etenity. You are assigning meaning the Bible never limits it to.

Are you saying there is birth, death and so on in eternity? That mortal life continues? Yes or no?

As stated, Amils cannot deal with these verses.

[amilltruth]

UNBELIEVABLE!!! AGAIN.

do you ever answer a question?

[CoreIssue]

UNBELIEVABLE!!! AGAIN.

do you ever answer a question?
You were answered.

Try reading.

Now YOU answer. Is there birth and death in Eternity?

Why are you dodging that question?

[amilltruth]

show me the post where you answered this question?

HOW MANY NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTHS DOES THE BIBLE DESCRIBE???

[amilltruth]

the BIBLE places the context of Isa 65:17-25 in the NHNE, who are we to change it? do we understand it all yet, no of course not, but that is where the writer of the BIBLE placed these events so what gives you the right to change them?

Obviously there will be no death in the NH, so that cant be what this is meaning literally, ARE YOU DENYING THAT THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS A POETIC BOOK TO BEGIN WITH?

dont forget to answer my question to you though, although I doubt I will ever get an answer.

[CoreIssue]

Two!

One that is in a 'remodeled and refreshed' condition and one that is completely new from scratch.

Now, YOU tell me how you can have birth and death on the New Earth of eternity?

You cannot!

You ASSUME new means the eternal one every time. Bad assumption.

You don't get it.


Strong's Number: 02319#dxOriginal WordWord Origin #dx from (02318 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=002318))Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Chadash khaw-dawsh' http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=2319h.rm) Parts of SpeechTWOT Adjective 613a Definition

new, new thing, freshTranslated Words KJV (53) - fresh, 1; new, 48; new thing, 4; NAS (53) - New, 2; new, 47; new thing, 1; new things, 2; something new, 1;


NOTHING in the definition requires newly created, as with the New Earth of Eternity.

Freshened, revitalized and such also is 'new.'

Now, answer the question, is there birth and death on the Enternal New Earth?

[CoreIssue]

the BIBLE places the context of Isa 65:17-25 in the NHNE, who are we to change it? do we understand it all yet, no of course not, but that is where the writer of the BIBLE placed these events so what gives you the right to change them?

Obviously there will be no death in the NH, so that cant be what this is meaning literally, ARE YOU DENYING THAT THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IS A POETIC BOOK TO BEGIN WITH?

dont forget to answer my question to you though, although I doubt I will ever get an answer.
Bingo! About time you admited it!

You do not read LITERALLY. So you make it say anything you want.

But you cannot PROVE your assumptions are correct, because they are assumptions. Period.

Amils rarely read ANYTHING literally, semantically or grammatically. Thus you are void of the ability to prove anything you claim on these issues.

[CoreIssue]

Further, look at the meaning of 'new' for the New Earth of Revelation. Different meaning!

Strong's Number: 2537kaino/vOriginal WordWord Origin kaino/v of uncertain affinityTransliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Kainos kahee-nos' http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=2537g.rm) Parts of SpeechTDNT Adjective 3:447,388 Definition
new
as respects form
recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
as respects substance
of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

Notice this demand freshly made, not remade or remodeled?

Get the difference?

[CoreIssue]

Now to finish off your argument.

Here is another Hebrew word for 'new.'

Strong's Number: 01278h)yrbOriginal WordWord Origin h)yrb from (01254 (http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=001254))Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling B@riy'ah ber-ee-aw' http://www.studylight.org/images/audio.gif (http://www.studylight.org/cgi-bin/Lexicon.pl?id=1278h.rm) Parts of SpeechTWOT Noun Feminine 278a Definition
a creation, created thing, new thing, marvel Translated Words KJV (1) - new thing, 1; NAS (1) - entirely new thing, 1;

Now, if you were right, this word would have been used.

But it wasn't. The word used means restored, refreshed and such, but NOT newly created, as in Revelation and with this Hebrew word.

There is a reason the word for 'new' that was used was used in Isaiah 65. That is because it is not the same usage as in Revelation.

[amilltruth]

Isaiah 40:3-4

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. every valley shall be exalted, and EVERY MOUNTAIN AN HILL SHALL BE MADE LOW; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

now do you deny this was speaking about John the Baptist?

how was this LITERALLY FULFILLED????

what valleys were exalted?
what mountain and hill were made low? (never mind it says all of em)
what crooked was made straight?
what rough places were made plain?

remember now there is no other way to explain this other than a LITERAL INTERPRETATION, unless you say this is not about John the Baptist, which I am sure you will do , so here you are:

"As it is written in the words of Isaiah the prophet saying, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, EVERY VALLEY SHALL BE FILLED, AND EVERY VALLEY MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE BROUGHT LOW, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth"

Luke 3:4-6

where is your evidence that this was literally fulfilled?

oops, maybe its not meant to be taken LITERALLY...

[amilltruth]

so let me get this straight,as you are way too smart for me core,

you believe there is the present earth we are on now? right?

and then you believe there is one more new "remodeled earth" that the bible calles the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH?

then you believe that there is another NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH after that one, which John in the book of REV calls the second one REV 21:1?

gotcha, yep you sure do know me than me core, thank you for straightening that out for me!

of course that is utter nonsense!!!!

there is this earth, and the NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH, john doesnt call his the 3rd does he? (Rev 21:1)

[CoreIssue]

Isaiah 40:3-4

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. every valley shall be exalted, and EVERY MOUNTAIN AN HILL SHALL BE MADE LOW; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

now do you deny this was speaking about John the Baptist?

how was this LITERALLY FULFILLED????
Because in rules of grammar figurative language that has a known literal meaning is literal, not figurative.

It is used to emphasis a literal point.

That is how.

what valleys were exalted?
what mountain and hill were made low? (never mind it says all of em)
what crooked was made straight?
what rough places were made plain?

remember now there is no other way to explain this other than a LITERAL INTERPRETATION, unless you say this is not about John the Baptist, which I am sure you will do , so here you are:

"As it is written in the words of Isaiah the prophet saying, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, EVERY VALLEY SHALL BE FILLED, AND EVERY VALLEY MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE BROUGHT LOW, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth"

Luke 3:4-6

where is your evidence that this was literally fulfilled?

Jesus Christ. Who is called a rock in both the OT and NT.

You need to learn basic rules of grammar and semantics.
oops, maybe its not meant to be taken LITERALLY...
Actually, it was, when one understands the rules of grammar.

[CoreIssue]

so let me get this straight,as you are way too smart for me core,

you believe there is the present earth we are on now? right?

and then you believe there is one more new "remodeled earth" that the bible calles the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH?

then you believe that there is another NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH after that one, which John in the book of REV calls the second one REV 21:1?

gotcha, yep you sure do know me than me core, thank you for straightening that out for me!

of course that is utter nonsense!!!!

there is this earth, and the NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH, john doesnt call his the 3rd does he? (Rev 21:1)
Read the word definitions.

And why would he call this earth, remodeled, a second earth? It will just be this earth refreshed, not a new one from scratch.

If you repaint your car, it has a new paint job, but still is your car until you replace it with a totally different new one.

Read the word definitions and then read the passage, literally, according to proper rules of grammar.

There is birth and death on the new earth of the MK. There is not birth and death on the New Earth of Eternity.

[CoreIssue]

I will add, it does not say there will not be birth and death on the new earth of the MK.

It says there will be birth and death.

[amilltruth]

Isaiah 40:3-4

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. every valley shall be exalted, and EVERY MOUNTAIN AN HILL SHALL BE MADE LOW; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

now do you deny this was speaking about John the Baptist?

how was this LITERALLY FULFILLED????
Because in rules of grammar figurative language that has a known literal meaning is literal, not figurative.

It is used to emphasis a literal point.

That is how.

what valleys were exalted?
what mountain and hill were made low? (never mind it says all of em)
what crooked was made straight?
what rough places were made plain?

remember now there is no other way to explain this other than a LITERAL INTERPRETATION, unless you say this is not about John the Baptist, which I am sure you will do , so here you are:

"As it is written in the words of Isaiah the prophet saying, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, EVERY VALLEY SHALL BE FILLED, AND EVERY VALLEY MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE BROUGHT LOW, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth"

Luke 3:4-6

where is your evidence that this was literally fulfilled?

Jesus Christ. Who is called a rock in both the OT and NT.

You need to learn basic rules of grammar and semantics.
oops, maybe its not meant to be taken LITERALLY...
Actually, it was, when one understands the rules of grammar.

you are one peice of work core, in all of your above nonsense, that I doubt anyone reading this will have a clue as to what you just said, cause I sure didnt,

but through all that, you just declared that a prophecy was fulfilled in a NONLITERAL WAY!

you did forget to tell me the NAME of that mountain that was made low, though, LITERALLY :nod:

like I said before core, NO ONE IS AS SMART AS YOU ARE!

[amilltruth]

unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CoreIssue]

Tell you what, when you actually saying something of meaning, I will reply. But if you are just going to keep talking like this, it is an argument, not a discussion.

[amilltruth]

whats unbelievable is your refusal to answer the question.

how was this LITERALLY FULFILLED?

its a very simple question core, you can do it brother, so far all you've given us is a SPIRITUAL fulfillment of that, but that is HERESY to do such things remember?

[amilltruth]

Still waiting for the name of those mountains that were all made low, and which rough places were made plain, I mean if you believe EVERYTHING has to be fulfilled in a LITERAL WAY, either it hasnt happened yet, or it was NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!

what mountain core?

[CoreIssue]

You were answered. Your problem if you don't understand grammar.

As in the meaning of those two different words for 'new' and how the slaughter your arguments about the New Earth.

Of, course, you won't deal with it, since you cannot.

[amilltruth]

I sure hope ANYONE following these threads can see how you work and how you deal with things that refute what you are saying, you just turn the attack somewhere else and maybe you wont have to deal with it. sorry pal


HOW WAS THIS LITERALY FULFILLED?

"every valley shall be exalted, and EVERY mountain and hill shall bemade low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

you do not want me to show you what your description of the word "LITERAL" is do you?

so tell us HOW this was literally fulfilled?

and what mountains literally were made low?

[CoreIssue]

I sure hope ANYONE following these threads can see how you work and how you deal with things that refute what you are saying, you just turn the attack somewhere else and maybe you wont have to deal with it. sorry pal


HOW WAS THIS LITERALY FULFILLED?

"every valley shall be exalted, and EVERY mountain and hill shall bemade low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

you do not want me to show you what your description of the word "LITERAL" is do you?

so tell us HOW this was literally fulfilled?

and what mountains literally were made low?
You are a one note poster.

Go through and explain the Zech and Isaiah passages. ALL the issues, not a grab a word or two and then leap away.

You have been answered on the grammar there. Pretending you were not is your problem.

[amilltruth]

no I was never was answered to how this was literally 'GRAMMATICALLY" fulfilled, you answered that it was

literally fulfilled, spiritually!!!

well my goodness core, thats exactly how amills see it to.

EVERYTHING in the bible will be fulfilled, its just you refuse to believe that anything will ever be fulfilled in a spriritual way

how do you think this was fulfilled?

"In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen...." Amos 9:11

how do you think the NT said this verse was fulfilled?

[amilltruth]

it surely wasn't in a literal fashion.

[amilltruth]

I sure hope ANYONE following these threads can see how you work and how you deal with things that refute what you are saying, you just turn the attack somewhere else and maybe you wont have to deal with it. sorry pal


HOW WAS THIS LITERALY FULFILLED?

"every valley shall be exalted, and EVERY mountain and hill shall bemade low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

you do not want me to show you what your description of the word "LITERAL" is do you?

so tell us HOW this was literally fulfilled?

and what mountains literally were made low?
You are a one note poster.

Go through and explain the Zech and Isaiah passages. ALL the issues, not a grab a word or two and then leap away.

You have been answered on the grammar there. Pretending you were not is your problem.


I am not asking about the "grammer", I am asking how was this "literally" fulfilled?

and as to Isa and Zech, we ARE dealing with them, on other threads., stop trying to devert attention away from you answering the question.

how was this literally fulfilled?

[amilltruth]

and since its on another page page back, I dont want you to miss this one either.

"In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen" Amos 9:11

tell us how the NEW TESTAMENT fulfills this verse?

[CoreIssue]

it surely wasn't in a literal fashion.
It was. You are playing games.

If you call some a baboon, don't you expect everyone to know the literal meaning of what you are saying? You don't expect them to believe they are literally a baboon.

A figurative phrase with know literal meaning is grammatically a literal statement.

But, when you try to take such as the cited verses in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Zech. and call them figurative, then you are not being literal.

Or Hebrews, where it says the New Covenant will be to the Houses of Israel and Judah, you have no justification for denying will be is future tense to the Church Age, since it was spoken in the Church Age. And You have no justification for changing House, which means physical lineage, Israel, which means a distinct physical group of humans, or Judah, which also means a distinct physical group, into present tense and meaning Gentiles.

There are rules of logic, semantics and grammar here that must be followed. You are not doing so.

[CoreIssue]

I am not asking about the "grammer", I am asking how was this "literally" fulfilled?

and as to Isa and Zech, we ARE dealing with them, on other threads., stop trying to devert attention away from you answering the question.

how was this literally fulfilled?

By Christ. John said to open the path straight for him and walk it straight with him.

Which has nothing to do with the issues of MK, Trib, Rapture and Second Coming, in the sense of demanding any End Time doctrine.

[amilltruth]

so tell me how this was "literally" fulfilled other that just saying "it was"

"In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down.." Amos 9:11

you know good and well it was not fulfilled in a literal fashion!

tell us when they rebuilt the "tabernacle of david" in the NT with scripture and verse so we all can read how it was fulfilled and see if it was by your strict "literal-only" method,

so you are saying the actual Tabernacle of david was rebuilt in the NT?

by the way you read every other prophesy in Isa and Zech, it HAS TO BE, right because I mean, if its not done literally exactly like the words describe then you accuse US of spiritualizing something..

so where is this verse literally fulfilled? with scripture please.

[amilltruth]

I am not asking about the "grammer", I am asking how was this "literally" fulfilled?

and as to Isa and Zech, we ARE dealing with them, on other threads., stop trying to devert attention away from you answering the question.

how was this literally fulfilled?

By Christ. John said to open the path straight for him and walk it straight with him.

Which has nothing to do with the issues of MK, Trib, Rapture and Second Coming, in the sense of demanding any End Time doctrine.


but Core, thats not a literal fulfillment, that is a spiritual one.

what mountains were made low?
what hills were made low?

I mean you hold us (amillennialist) to the same standard, why wont you hold yourself to it as well??????

[amilltruth]

Which has nothing to do with the issues of MK, Trib, Rapture and Second Coming, in the sense of demanding any End Time doctrine.

no it has to do with you accusing amillennialist of spiritualizing scriptures,when you do not even realize you have to do the same thing.

[Sid]

Amill:


Tell me again how Israel really isn't Israel because it isn't the Israel of God, or that it is?


. . . and then how the Nation of Israel, in the original Holy Land, isn't the fulfillment of LITERAL Bible prophesy.


It is challenging to make sense of your confusion.

. . . it is layered like an onion.

[CoreIssue]

[quote=amilltruth;19431]so tell me how this was "literally" fulfilled other that just saying "it was"

"In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down.." Amos 9:11

you know good and well it was not fulfilled in a literal fashion!

tell us when they rebuilt the "tabernacle of david" in the NT with scripture and verse so we all can read how it was fulfilled and see if it was by your strict "literal-only" method,

so you are saying the actual Tabernacle of david was rebuilt in the NT?

Because it was not a prophecy of the Church Age, but the Trib and MK.

You fail to understand Revelation is not about the time of the Church, but at the first Seal on about the Trib, MK and on to Eternity.
The Temple WILL rebuilt in the Trib and then completed to the one of Ezekiel in the MK.

by the way you read every other prophesy in Isa and Zech, it HAS TO BE, right because I mean, if its not done literally exactly like the words describe then you accuse US of spiritualizing something..

Yep. Literal and will be done.

Your problem you try to spiritualize it on the Church.
so where is this verse literally fulfilled? with scripture please.
Trib and MK.

Those verses speak for themselves on timing.

[CoreIssue]

I am not asking about the "grammer", I am asking how was this "literally" fulfilled?

and as to Isa and Zech, we ARE dealing with them, on other threads., stop trying to devert attention away from you answering the question.

how was this literally fulfilled?

By Christ. John said to open the path straight for him and walk it straight with him.

Which has nothing to do with the issues of MK, Trib, Rapture and Second Coming, in the sense of demanding any End Time doctrine.


but Core, thats not a literal fulfillment, that is a spiritual one.

what mountains were made low?
what hills were made low?

I mean you hold us (amillennialist) to the same standard, why wont you hold yourself to it as well??????
Again, learn the rules of grammar concerning known figurative speek representing a literal reality.

Again the example of calling someone a baboon is understand to be a figurative phrase of known literal meaning.

What you are trying to force a meaning upon has no known literal meaning or grammatical justification for not being literal.

You demanding Replacement Theology does not justify your conclusions. You must first prove the Church has become Israel, which you cannot.

NEVER is Church called Israel. NEVER is Israel called Church.

[CoreIssue]

Which has nothing to do with the issues of MK, Trib, Rapture and Second Coming, in the sense of demanding any End Time doctrine.

no it has to do with you accusing amillennialist of spiritualizing scriptures,when you do not even realize you have to do the same thing.
I am not!

Ezekiel blue prints the MK Temple, literally. You deny it will exist.

Zech states the nations that will attack Israel will have to go to Jerusalem and offer sacrifices and offerings. Those are literal words saying there is a Temple, in Jerusalem, in a future Age.

Isaiah says there will be birth, death, great life spans, building, planting and harvesting, in a future Age. Those are literal words that do not apply to Heaven or Eternity.

You say they don't say what the words literally meaning, grammatically and by word definition.

Where am I spiritualizing them? Using literal rules of grammar and word definition is spiritualizing nothing.

New has two Hebrew words. One means from scratch and one means restored, basically. The New Earth you demand is Eternity means restored, not brand new. But John uses the Greek word for brand new in Revelation.

Distinct and different meanings between the two issues.

You are doctrinally applying a definition and meaning to NT verses and then demanding THAT is what defines verses elsewhere.

That is applying doctrine. It is not reading grammatically.

One must read grammatically and develop doctrine from that. AND use ALL the verses applying to develop the doctrine.

You are misdefining a handful of verses without ANY consideration for what the rest say, and then trying to force the meaning onto them.

[CoreIssue]

Zechariah 14

The LORD Comes and Reigns

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

This has never happened in history. You have to spiritualize it to claim it has.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Has never happened yet.

5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23074a)] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Has not happened. And this states Christ will literally come to the earth, just as desribed in Revelation 19.

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.

As shown in Revelation.

8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea [b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23077b)] and half to the western sea, [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23077c)] in summer and in winter.

Has not happened yet. Remember the land split in two, here.

9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

His name is not the only name, now. He does not rule the earth physically, now.

10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

Most assuredly has never happened to date.
12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
Has never happened yet. And Revelation adds to what will happen at the Second Coming at Armageddon.
13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other.
Never happened yet.
14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing.
Never has happened yet.

15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.

Again, never has happened yet.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty,
This builds on the statements Christ comes physically. He WILL be ruling from Jerusalem, on this earth.
and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Requires a Temple. And that is blueprinted in Ezekiel.
17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain.
Sin. Talking of sin on the earth. Sure not in Heaven.
18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain.
Eqypt is but ONE nation talked about here. You want to make it all about Egypt so as to be able to use the figurative usage of Egypt in the Bible.

That fails because MANY nations are spoken of here.
The LORD [d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23087d)] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations
Nations. Many nations.
that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Again, physical Temple required.

19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Again, this physical earth, not Heaven, sin and a Temple.
20 On that dayHOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house
Temple again!
will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.
Alter! Temple!
21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice
Sacrifice! Temple!
will take some of the pots and cook in them.
Cook. Physical. Animal death to eat.

And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=zech%2014;&version=31;#fen-NIV-23090e)] in the house of the LORD Almighty.

The New Earth of the MK is the earth of today, made new by restoration. It is not the New Earth of Eternity.

Read literally. Absolutely zero need to spiritualize anything to make it fit what I have said.

You, on the other hand, can accept nothing literally said here.