Coming of the Son of Man.

[keny]

Hello All.

There is much discussion at times, about the Day of the Lord and about a biblical day being limited to what man understands about a 24 hour day, and so on. Literalists are very adamant and sincere, for they think that the scriptures give them the insight into God and into eternal life. But they will not leave the supremacy THEY give to their own understanding of the letters of scripture, in order to come to Christ alone.

Here is an understanding of what the day of the Lord is talking about, in time. It is not one 24 hour day. Also, it is a day that comes as a thief in the night. We are all "in the dark" or in the night and not seeing things too clearly, UNTIL the LORD comes within and begins to really make His presence in us known. The lion roars once he has taken the prey, simply meaning, when we know that God is within us and teaching us, we can also know we have been taken "in the night". {before we were aware of it}.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you,
Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in
the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east,
and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming
of the Son of man be.

We know the scripture tells us that the Kingdom of God is WITHIN us. In our lives is where God is going to rule by establishing His nature in us as our own nature and then we are truly born OF GOD.

The scripture in Matthew 13 tells us that when the Lord comes the offensive things are to be taken OUT of the kingdom. Since the Kingdom is within us, it means that the unChristlike things that are in our lives, are what are going to be removed.

Love "slays" hate, anger, greed, envy, jealousy, bitterness, unbelief, sorrow, and all other forms of "evil" selfishness.
But, the love must be ALIVE. IF it only remains as a concept, we do not have much strength over such lusts and attitudes that reign in man by dethroning the love and mercy and forgiveness that is also sometimes manifested to man from within his own heart\spirit.

By the love being alive, I mean, it must be being FELT to really have "power". But, when it is not felt, we are to remember the SPIRIT we have received, and are to walk in faith. We are to obey Jesus Christ and what he taught, said, and did, even when we do not feel like doing so. That is what walking in faith is.

It is also evident then, that we have to know what Jesus said, and we have to know it correctly. This is the problem that is upon all the Christian differences and arguments and debates that are going on in churches, newspapers and in these kind of forums.

I mean, people argue, discuss, and often fight about what Jesus MEANT. It is pretty clear what He meant, so when one argues about it to the point of excusing themselves from doing what Jesus said, they are giving evidence against themselves that they do not want to do what jesus said; and yet at the same time they naturally want to be at peace in their own heart about being Christian.

The Son of Man comes, Jesus said, like the light that shines from the east to the west, comes. What does this mean. First, the word lightning in the scripture in Matthew 24, means light or daylight. The son of man comes like the sun or daylight comes that shines from the east toward the west.

What does it mean. The Light of Christ, like the sunshine, shines to some people in the world while others are still in the darkness of their own understanding.

This is just like when the light of the sun is shining in Eastern Canada and the U.S, while it can still be dark in western America, in California, Oregon, and Washington State.

But eventually the very same source of light that shines to some will shine to all that are upon the earth in that DAY that is of the Lord.

This is the same as the sun shines from the Eastern seaboard of America and travels onward relentlessly and eventually the same source of light and warmth shines upon those in the western Seaboard.

And the same light will also shine to Eastern Asia and onward until the WHOLE earth has been enlightened by the SAME light to all people. That is what the DAY OF THE LORD accomplishes.

We see some spiritual things in a shady kind of way at first. We see and are able to identify some things, we think, and then as the light gets brighter IN US, we see we were mistaken at what we thought something was, or we see things much more clearly that we did before and can now really give them Definition. The purpose of this is so Christ IN YOU can begin to remove the things that offend, that we may have once thought were good to do and were Christian, but were not.

The "rapture", to use a commonly understood Christian word, takes place within the spirit of believers, out of sight of those who do not yet believe or don't beleive at all. This is how Christ comes "in the night" and the world does not see Him any more.

The idea that the church or believers are going to LEAVE the planet in some rapture is not the way the bible really tells it. I know, there is words that SEEM to be saying that the believers are going to meet the Lord in the air. Just for literalism's sake, I will ask us, where is our head and body right now. Is it not "in the air". There is more involved answers, but I want to at least be "literal" for those of us who are sincere and may not really like what is said here right now.

Here is a few scriptures among many that declare what I am saying here, if we understand that the kingdom of God they are speaking about, is to be established WITHIN US. It is established within the body of Christ, line upon line.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

See above, it says that it is all things that offend that are going to be TAKEN AWAY, not the church. They are going to be gathered together and taken OUT of the Lord's KINGDOM, which is within us.

Here is another example.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

We see that the "wicked", called the things that offend that are in the Kingdom in the example above this one, are to be severed FROM AMONG the just. They are "removed", while the just are to remain. God does not run away from need.

Many who sincerely teach the rapture as if the church were going to be removed from the earth, to satisfy their ideas of punishment that they want to escape from themselves, say that it will be like it was in Noah's day.

But they seem to forget that in Noah's day, the obedient REMAINED on the planet and it was the unhearing who were "removed" from upon the earth.

The following scripture passage is another one that is often used to say that the church will be "taken" and the wicked will remain. Those who teach that see it from their own sincere and faithful but incorrect understanding. Here is the passages. Then we can look at them as to what they are saying in regard to Noah.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In the above example, given by Jesus, we can clearly see that it was those who continued to not heed the "storm" that were the ones who were "TAKEN AWAY". Noah and his family, who were hearers of God, were not taken away, but remained on the planet. It is in this context that we would like to see the following scriptures in the passage about Noah and the coming of the Son of man.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Some in the churches have said that it is the church members or believers that are the ones that will be "taken away" in a rapture. But that is not what happened in Noah's day, is it? Who is taken is the OLD MAN in us all. The sanctification of the body of Christ is what is taking place during the "coming" or "appearing" of the son of Man to HIS BODY.

It is a spiritually discerned operation of the heart, fulfilled by God as the Holy Spirit in us all. This operation is the beginning of the circumcision of our hearts that is done without hands by the Spirit. It takes place and is done out of the visual eye sight of anyone "outside" of our own spirit. The "old man" in us all is being spiritually PUT OFF at this time, and the new man is being put on spiritually, for real. As I said, this takes place within us, in our own spirit.

As the example says, it will be like it was in Noah's day. Those that heard were able to keep above the flood and were those who remained in the world and on the planet.

After all, the scripture does say that the meek {obedient} will inherit THE EARTH. It also says that "the world" will be saved THROUGH Jesus Christ. This is done by Jesus Christ in us as His many membered body.

As scripture tells us, this same Jesus is going to be the Jesus that returns. Well, Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS. This is what is going to be taking place in earnest and in a factual spiritual accomplishment. In fact, it is already in process for many people, today.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

We are the HOUSE of the Lord, and as believers we are also the goodman of the house. It is out of THIS mature House of God that the NEW THINGS will come, even the new wine and a new song of Moses.

The scripture also tells us that what Jesus ministered is the circumcision. He ministers what the "circumcised" man of God will be like and is like. Like Him.

Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

This is a word of good news, is it not? Look at verse 8 in Romans 15 and see if you can see what I said it says, in it.

Jesus Christ ministers or teaches "the circumcision" for us, and TO us. If we desire to follow Him and pick up our own spiritual cross and let our own carnal things perish, spiritually, on it, we will become "that man" that is circumcised in heart.

The spiritual cross is something like this. Please do not make it a hard and fast rule. It is a process of walking in the love of God and enjoying God and loving God and neighbour with tolerance for any ignorance against you.

We just go our way in the world, whatever we are doing, we continue but go in and with the Lord and walk in his ways toward all. If someone slights you or seems to slight you, and you feel anger or hurt or resentment rising in you, we figuratively bring our spiritual cross out of our back pocket.

We stick it, spiritually speaking, in the ground and climb up on it, spiritually speaking, and let the anger die there, unfulfilled, as an offering for God to take. I speak of course, in a spiritual sense. We are asked to give our bodies as a "LIVING" SACRIFICE to the Lord.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

The aforementioned High places where the spiritual powers rule, is in mankind where Jesus Christ is to rule. These things of anger, hate, greed, envy, and so on, have been ruling in and over men who are in positions of power in the world, for eons. It is these things that we "fight against" and not against other people physically.

I hope this is helpful to you all.

Thank you and God bless,
keny

[MHz]

[SIZE=3]
Also, it is a day that comes as a thief in the night. We are all "in the dark" or in the night and not seeing things too clearly, UNTIL the LORD comes within and begins to really make His presence in us known.
Hi keny,

Isn't that the point of Scripture, to enlighten us so we aren't in the dark and so Christ doesn't come to us as a thief in the night;
1Th:5:4:
But ye,
brethren,
are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.

[keny]

Hi keny,

Isn't that the point of Scripture, to enlighten us so we aren't in the dark and so Christ doesn't come to us as a thief in the night;
1Th:5:4:
But ye,
brethren,
are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.

hello MHZ.

Thank you for your reply. As to the purpose of scripture, it is not really able to tell us when or what that day will be like, because of the understanding men have through the natural understanding of scripture and the way men believe about judgment from God. No one knows but God, and of course, us as sons when that day is come upon us.

The idea of the scriptures is that we are already in the dark, and they are likened to a flashlight that we have to go by UNTIL something more sure arises and comes upon us, IN OUR HEART.

2Peter 1:19. We have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, UNTIL the DAY DAWN, and the Day Star arised IN OUR HEARTS:

First, the scriptures are a flashlight in the dark, as it were. But when the DAY DAWNS for us as Christ RISES in our HEART\spirits, we are then to follow THAT STAR, meaning, the Holy Spirit of God.

Of course, if we are not aware of what happend yet, we will cling to our understanding of scripture even sometimes resisting the gentle pressures of the Holy Spirit to follow Him insatead of what we THINK the scriptures are saying.

As it says, UNTIL the DAY {of the Lord} Dawns, and the day star {Christ Jesus} arises IN OUR HEART.

This is what will begin taking place once we know what is happening with us and God, within us. The light begins to remove "our darkness" and also reveals to us just what the mystery about iniquity that we have been under, really is.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


When the mystery is removed, we then see what the cause of the iniquity really is and where it derives from and how. The brightness of the light of christ in our own hearts will begin to remove the darkness so we can see things with the eyes of Christ.

You know that the scripture in Revelation says that we are to hear what THE SPIRIT sayeth. Also, 1 John 2: 20 and 27 tells us clearly itis the SPIRIT that teaches us all things and gives us the freedom from the yoke of the "slave master". Isaiah 10 calls the yoke the yoke of the Assyrian.

I think we should really take note that it says the day star arises IN OUR HEART, and not in some outside place. Thus, do not say he is there, or in there, or over here, for the kingdom of Heaven is WITHIN YOU.

Christ is come to give us judgment today, and guide us into all truth. The scriptures are for when the "day star" light of Christ is NOT risen in our heart yet.

Thank you and God bless in the love of Christ.
keny

[MHz]

Hi keny,

2Peter 1:19. We have a more sure word of prophecy, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, UNTIL the DAY DAWN, and the Day Star arised IN OUR HEARTS:

First, the scriptures are a flashlight in the dark, as it were. But when the DAY DAWNS for us as Christ RISES in our HEART\spirits, we are then to follow THAT STAR, meaning, the Holy Spirit of God.

Of course, if we are not aware of what happend yet, we will cling to our understanding of scripture even sometimes resisting the gentle pressures of the Holy Spirit to follow Him insatead of what we THINK the scriptures are saying.

As it says, UNTIL the DAY {of the Lord} Dawns, and the day star {Christ Jesus} arises IN OUR HEART.

True but this is also talking about after the trib, when Christ will appear as He was when He was transfigured on the mountain.

This what was being referenced;
Joe:2:27:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
and that I am the LORD your God,
and none else:
and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe:2:28:
And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions:
Joe:2:29:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe:2:30:
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
blood,
and fire,
and pillars of smoke.
Joe:2:31:
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
and the moon into blood,
before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

It is also that same day Revelations states that the mystery of God is finished, Re:10:7.

Until then we have the Holy Bible, the written word of God. It is enough for us to hold onto until the power of the Kingdom of Heaven is revealed to all;
1Co:4:20:
For the kingdom of God is not in word,
but in power.

Later

[keny]

Hello MZ.

Thanks for the reply. I guess you will just have to wait then, becuase that is what you believe. The falling away spoken of in 2 thessalonians has already happened long long ago, and we are coming out of that falling away now.

Unfortunately, what some think the bible says is what will keep them from hearing at this time. I know that what you believe about the trib and so on was told to you by someone else who you obviously trust.

Read Isaiah 65:17 to the end of the chapter, if you desire to do so, and see what is still happening in the new heaven and new earth. Also, if you like read Revelation 14 and see that the everlasting gospel is to be taught to the people on the earth. The everlasting gospel is the one that never changes. If anything you believed in times past has changed for you, then you can understand that the "gospel" or parts of it at least, have changed for you and thus it was not everlasting at that time.

If you are aware that some of what you used to believe has changed so you believe differently now than before, perhaps you can accept that perhaps what you now believe may change later too.

Man is always looking for and desiring chaos. Those things do not happen when god rules. No trib except in the world. If you read Ephesians 6, you will see that believers are expected to, and are asked to, STAND in the "evil day". Put on ALL the armour of God, it says

Now, why would that be if the church was going to be "absent" in the "evil day"?

We are not to say, the lord delays his coming, are we?

Thank you for your consideration,
god bless, keny

[CoreIssue]

Just a note, keny. If you had read my post on DOTL you would see I stated it is a thousand years. And most on CTZ believe it is 1,000 years.

That is all I wanted say here.

[keny]

Just a note, keny. If you had read my post on DOTL you would see I stated it is a thousand years. And most on CTZ believe it is 1,000 years.

That is all I wanted say here.

Hello Core.

Yes, I know you are of the mind of a thousand years. It is a pretty common belief among many people. That alone does not make it so. Again though, these things are all red herrings that we as people get involved in about the scriptures instead of just doing as Jesus asked of us and letting the growth that comes from that open the door for us, as Peter said, and Jesus said. Turn the other cheek, forgive all men their trespasses against us the same way we are forgiven ours, love those who make themselves our enemies, give to those who ask of us and have need, do all things to others as if they were being done to Christ, do not lie and do not cheat or overcharge in business, and so on. In effect, love our neighbour as our selves.

If we do that, we will be resisting evil as Jesus said to do.

James 3:10 - 18.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Please do not be put off by what I am going to say. I realize very well that speaking or discussing mere words very seldom if ever, causes anyone to change their ideas about God. I mean no ill will by what I say and am only being factual as per what many others who are not in church or do not profess Christianity, think. They think it with some knowledge that there is something wrong with some christian doctrines but they do not know what it is. But they do know something that causes them to shy away from some more common Christian beliefs. There is something they do not like about them, but do not realize what it is.

The wisdom from above as stated above, is peaceable, has the fruit of righteousness in it, and is sown in PEACE by or of those who make peace. {are peace}.

The teaching and the idea that God likes some of us, meaning those who have said a few words about believing in Jesus Christ and are forgiven, and that God does not like some others who he will eventually afflict and bind in hellfire, where they burn forever and ever, is what they find terrible.

Please note, I am not saying God does do this, I am saying that it is the common Christian teaching that many accept even though some find it hard to accept themselves, that causes many to refuse "churchianity".

What that teaching says is that God is like Hitler, and many other war lords of history, in the way they treat their enemies, get rid of their enemies, and establish their own supremacy. Hitler had his favorites, which were the Aryan race ides. Then there were those who were not acceptable as Aryans, and they were allowed to live but were inferior and would be servant races, to the Aryans. Then there were those who were just too terrible and they were given over to the gas ovens and then burned up in the crematoriums.

This is a similar path of action that the hellfire preachers of the past supported when it was supposedly God who was going to do it. I realize most people do not notice this, but that is what it is. Man's operation and method of getting rid of troublemakers and enemies, is to do such things to them, wiping them out of physical existence.

That is a teaching about God that comes directly from the carnal nature and mind in man, and they see that type of afflictive judgment in how they read the bible. This is part of what we have to do in "denying ourselves" and overcome this natural minded understanding, in order to see God more perfectly and to begin to have the scriptures opened up for us in a more all encompassing way.

It takes a faith about what God is really like instead of seeing man as god in the scriptures.

God is much better and more able than man has actually given Him credit for.

The way man sees God in the natural minded teachings of times past, and for many who still hold to it, would have God acting like a child abuser. Strong language, perhaps, but please keep in mind I do not believe God is like that and am not saying anything against God. I am saying something AGAINST the teachings that present God is such a way. And I am doing it not in accusation or argumentatively, but in hope of at least causing good thought.

Thank you, in Christ,
keny

[keny]

Hello Core.

Just a note. I notice that the pre-adamic conversation is still going on in the wrong thread. {g}
I have put this here because I thought you may want it here anyway. Please let me know if everything I post is desired to be put here unless there is a direct question to me in another post on topic.


In Revelation 17:15 - 18, it tells us that God has put it in the heart of the "beast" to do HIS will in destroying Babylon. {as you know, the NIV calls it "the prostitute".}. In essence, the "science" and medical knowledge and so on that is coming to the fore through the beast, irregardless of it's lack of much Godliness, is what is destroying the mythology and belief in many gods and and of "separate" god's ruling personally over the powers of nature and so on.

What is going to fall through this truth that is coming forth also, is the belief in outer spiritual or angelic bodied demons, and in the belief about 24 hour days as being the 6 days of creation... or the even that the creation was 6000 years only. It destroys the myths that the Christian church has through man that are not correct.

When it says that the beast is the eighth king, it means democracy. The people that make up the kingdom are said to be in entirety, the eighth ruler. Government of the people, for the people, BY the people. "supposedly".

This should find some support in the present idea of some form of a return of the "government of Rome". It is a system not an area of land. There are leaders in this type of kingdom {horns}, but they are "supposedly" UNDER the people or "body of the beast".

Beasts are given in scripture as figures for kingdoms OF MEN. They have "horns" on these beasts and so on, to typify DIFFERENT rulers, but in the last or eighth beast, the beast is pictured as being the king.

In other words, the body of the beast that had different heads and "horns" on the heads and was ruled by those horns NOW becomes the ruler itself. Even the beast, HE is the eighth. It is not a single individual, but many Christian doctrines, in error, have taught that it is a man. Again, that belief hides the truth from them and they sincerely and faithfully fight tooth and nail to try to support their own doctrines that did not come to them from God. Those doctrines shall fall no matter what one thinks about it right now in their own present faith structure.

The "beast" is pictured as coming out of the "nations", or sea of humanity. The beast is the kingdoms of humanity. Those kingoms are pictured as being ruled by what is called the whore OVER the head {mind and belief} of all earlier kingdoms of man.

In the end time, the beast is pictured as being FREE from the "whore" over it's head and in fact is now destroying the flesh{carnal minded and natured myths} of the babylonian or confusing causing beliefs that used to rule over the kings of the "kingdoms" of men in times past.

The kingdoms of men all arise out of the SEA of HUMANITY, and do not originate from God's "ways".

Thank you and God bless all.
keny

[CoreIssue]

Actually, keny, it is better you keep your posts separate.

It is obvious you view yourself as a prophet receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit.

Problem is what you say contradicts the Bible. And you have nothing to offer but your words as evidence, which is no evidence.

And, since you refuse to use actual work definitions and abide by rules of grammar, it is impossible for anyone else to say anything to you that you do not immediately dismiss as coming from spiritually lacking, not-taught by the Holy Spirit, Biblical literalists who cannot possibly see the truth.

Bottom line is, what is there to talk about? We have no common ground to test your statement by since you are your own source of revelation and consider yourself self tested.

[keny]

Actually, keny, it is better you keep your posts separate.

It is obvious you view yourself as a prophet receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit.

.

hello Core.

Thanks for your thoughts and I understand that what I offer is not what may literal believers presently see. I would like to say, I do not consider myself a prophet and I will tell you why. I know explicitly that no one will actually recieve anything beyond what they think they see except God GIVE IT TO THEM because it is "God's" to give.

In fact, I can only be a help, perhaps,to some one who is beginning to see things like this and is bouncing between doubting perhaps, and accepting. The pressure from many of their friends who will be telling them what they are seeing is not correct, would be too much for some. Their friends would really be thinking they were doing their friend who was "straying", a favour and mean their "advice" to their friend for good, but it will rob their friend of the truth God is revealilng to that one person at that time, if they falter.

What God is revealing is FOR ALL. But, God has to both open the door, make sure no man can shut, and then mature what is taught.

Bless, keny

[CoreIssue]

keny, that is semantical double talk.

You believe you are getting revelation from the Holy Spirit as to hidden and true meanings others cannot see. And you are revealing it to them.

That is the very definition of a prophet.

But you are not a prophet. God does not violate his literal words given in the Bible. He did not cloak meanings that require an oracle to see. He does not give revelation on a Biblical scale that exceeds what was given in the Bible.

So, as I said, you want us to accept you have special knowledge and revelation beyond what we do. You are the key to helpiing us to unlock these hidden things.

But, the Bible orders us to study the written word, allow the Holy Spirit to aid us in understand it and test all claims against the Bible.

YOU make that impossible. YOU requires us to listen to YOU and then accept what YOU say so that WE can come to YOUR level or understanding.

But WE cannot obey the Bible and test YOUR words via the Bible unless we first accept what YOU say.

But then, to verify what YOU say requires us to reject a literal Bible, thus in actuality simply abiding by YOUR statements as to what the Bible says. Which is not testing your words, but embracing them.

So, unless you can give us a way to check you out in the Bible, you are, per the Bible, as false teacher.

Which you are, since you reject salation by grace alone, with many going to the Lake for eternity. That being a simple test, from the Bible, to find your teaching worthy of rejection.

[Sid]

But, the Bible orders us to study the written word, allow the Holy Spirit to aid us in understand it and test all claims against the Bible.

YOU make that impossible. YOU requires us to listen to YOU and then accept what YOU say so that WE can come to YOUR level or understanding.

But WE cannot obey the Bible and test YOUR words via the Bible unless we first accept what YOU say.

But then, to verify what YOU say requires us to reject a literal Bible, thus in actuality simply abiding by YOUR statements as to what the Bible says. Which is not testing your words, but embracing them.

So, unless you can give us a way to check you out in the Bible, you are, per the Bible, as false teacher.


CI:


Your reasoning also judges any teacher's or church's appeal to continuing revelation or a sacred deposit of oral traditions.

The written Scriptures are so confining to those who claim they can make theology up as they go. . . .

[keny]

Hello Core.

Thanks for the reply and the information. I appreciate your position, and am also very familliar with it among very nice, sincere, church oriented people. Most people who believe in or about Christ are very nice in regard to politeness and visiting their churches and so on.
The problem between pretty well all Christian denominations hinges for the most part, on what holiness is, and about just what the JUDGMENTS of God re PUNISHMENT, are.

I would like to say again, I know I can not make anyone believe anything. Exactly what I am offering is another way to see the bible, but it also takes a belief in the grace of God being extended well past what Christians tend to think it is when they think of their OWN salvation only. And perhaps for their family and friends. All self centered, is it not. By that I mean, the person wanting to share their "beleif of salvation" is usually centered on themselves outward to their own interests, even if it is family and "their" friends.

You wrote the following.
Which you are, since you reject salation by grace alone, with many going to the Lake for eternity. That being a simple test, from the Bible, to find your teaching worthy of rejection.

What I want to address at this time is the following part of that sentence.
Which you are, since you reject salation by grace alone, with many going to the Lake for eternity.

First, Core, who's grace is it we are talking about? Your's? Or God's? I am pretty sure you would say salvation depends upon God's GRACE. But what you have done in your belief, without realizing of meaning to, I know, is limited God's grace to your own ideas of righteousness. It is YOU that does not let God's grace go further or understand it is going to go further than you have imagined, because of thinking that saying I beleive and confessing verbally to the Lord Jesus Christ is what salvation is. It is not.

Most places in the bible say believe ON the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Do you hear about them confessing their "sins" as a necessity, or is it "repentance" of life style that is the necessity.? Repentance, because some believers who were disobedient to what Paul was teaching were "given over to Satan", as has been quoted in some of my other posts.

Also, of importance, is the truth that one of the "false teachers" who was teaching that it was all right to have his father's wife, was taken BACK INTO the church in 2 Cor. It was because of "repentance" or change of belief in the one that was at one time put out and given over to the world.

If God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and the knowledge of Him, then that is his will. And, if that is his will, we are told that God works out all things according to HIS WILL. Christianity has said he can not do that because, meaning ,he can not accomplish it because some "people" can actually withstand what is his will is.

So we would need to change the scripture that says God works ALL things out according to HIS will. We would have to add, perhaps, EXCEPT for those who are stronger willed than God is. That would mean, God is not the God of all, and that there is something that is too hard for God. That of course, is not true. But Christianity has given these type of scriptures a twist that denies the power of God and goliness, to satisfy their own ideas of "righteous punishment" for those who are not as wise and nice as "they are". Prejudical judgment, and respecting of persons is what Christianity does and witnesses through the way they interpret these type of scriptures. I guess I will have to put the scriptures I referenced below now, and then go on. I know you say I do not give examples, so here they are.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If the lord is really not willing that any should perish, that is the same as saying, HIS WILL IS that none should perish. Christianity says through their doctrines, that God can not actually have what HE WILLS, done.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Yes, God "will" have all men come to be saved. Also, I am presently giving the witness that He is the saviour of ALL through His ransom for ALL. It is due time. You know I say that too, that today is the day that scripture has led up to as the "Day of the Lord" and the end times, and so on. Even though the world as a planet is going to continue.

I would like you to look at the next verse, if you read this, and I will ask you, what do you think of the word "especially" in the following scripture. {specially}

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

At the coming of christ Jesus into the world, we are to again say, peace on earth and GOOD WILL TOWARD MEN. That good will is to be both in Christ, and in the church. There should be no condemnation IN those who are IN Christ Jesus. Why? Because there was no condemnation IN Jesus Christ against man, just against what is IN MAN.

Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

The scripture above is not in the NIV this way, because men think it does not back them up as to how they think. You do know how the NIV came to be, don't you?

This is a very TYPICAL event that mirrors Christian error of doctrine.

There were messengers sent ahead of Jesus to ready the "samaritans" for his coming. They did not receive him.

His "disciples" wanted to bring fire down upon those smaritans that did not receive him, even though they were foretold that he was coming.

Jesus did not let them do that, and Jesus did not let them think HE DID THAT either. He said, he was come, {arrived} to SAVE men's lives, not to destroy them.

This too is what I offer us to understand. Christ and all the judgment scriptures in the scripture that speak of affliction and physical destruction through the LETTER, need to be understood by the Christian as being fulfilled by GOD only SPIRITUALLY within the heart of ALL, no matter whether they have YET said they believe of not.

Christ comes within to "cast out" the "darkness and error" and SAVE men's lives right from within it.

That is why scripture tells us, let the EARTH rejoice and ALL the people too, because the LORD cometh, He cometh, to JUDGE THE EARTH. It is a time of life, my friend. But we all must go through the process of being judged for what we are doing in the body, and for what others have done in the body.

That judgments, the wisdom of God given to us as our own wisdom in the mind of Christ through Gods' spiritual circumcision as a fact of living, will cause us to turn away from all the evil and evil thinking thoughts we had becuase we will then recognize them as having belonged to US when we were still "in sin" even though forgiven.

Rejoice, and I say again, Rejoice, the lord is come to judge the earth from within each vessel. Let him in to do so. Pray about it.

Thank you, and God bless,
keny

[CoreIssue]

CI:

Your reasoning also judges any teacher's or church's appeal to continuing revelation or a sacred deposit of oral traditions.

The written Scriptures are so confining to those who claim they can make theology up as they go. . .

Yep. It does.

Those that discover that truth free themselves from such by studying God's word against what they claim.

The Truth will set you free. And I know you enjoy your freedom from whence you came, Sid.

[keny]

CI:


Your reasoning also judges any teacher's or church's appeal to continuing revelation or a sacred deposit of oral traditions.

The written Scriptures are so confining to those who claim they can make theology up as they go. . . .

Hello Core. I know you know the literal words of scripture say, that which is first is natural, and that which is afterward is spiritual. yet, you believe you remain completely literal. I know you are sincere and very knowledgeable in defense of what you believe. I mean that as a good thing.

That is the type of situation God would like to use. As you also know, the scripture says that the one that will be faithful in a little, will be faithful in much.


There is much more in the understanding of scripture for us all, but the man part of "man" can not have it. No man can see God and live. This includes the spiritual understanding of scripture.


IF, and as we begin to see things in a more and more MERCIFUL and GRACE filled understanding the man part we used to see God through DIES, spiritually speaking. It will "dissolve or melt away". This occurs because we will be entering the Change Paul spoke of, when we begin to see things more "perfectly". I only use that example word because the bible uses it in regard to Appollos and Aquila and Priscilla.


Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:


As you also know, the scripture says that it is given unto man ONCE to die, and AFTER this the judgment. If we have the natural natured mind and ways in us "perish" from power over us, through the Spirit of God, and we begin to see LIFE as the LORD in the scriptures, then we are fulfilling that scripture "spiritually", and not physically.


As Jesus said, those who believe in Him and LIVE, shall never die. This is in contrast to His saying that those who believe in him, though they were dead, yet SHALL {future} they live.

I read that it is GOD who adds to the church daily, not man.


Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


When we read scriptures that say things like, the Lion is come out of his thicket, the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way: and that say his armies will come and afflict and destroy and kill the Israelites or Moab or whatever, we understand them literally as being done BY MAN who is a sinner. They are obeying Sin in their members when they do such destruction.

The lord does not "obey Sin". God's ways are much higher than man's ways.


When God fulfills the scriptures, he does it spiritually, and HE comes with His armies. They are love, joy, honesty, mercifulness, forgiveness, and so on. They are "terrible" to the ways of death, because the ways and mind and emotions etc. of death and hell can not exist where those armies of the lord are established.

God is the destroyer of death and hell. God is death's plagues. God SWALLOWS up death, he does not "make dead". Life kills "death".


We want to be ministers of the SPIRIT that GIVES life. To do so, we have to be in a heartfelt agreement with Jesus' witness and be able also to show how LIFE fulfills all the scriptures.

God sends the attributes of His nature into our hearts in power, and destroys the character attributes that are against { a satan to} His nature and character attributes and mind.


I am sharing not only what God does in fulfilling all the scriptures but also am sharing HOW it is done.

We need to see god in a much greater light.


I will also say here, plainly, for anyone to read. If I or any one says that you or anyone should follow THEM, they are already in error and do not love you. Why is that?


Well, if anyone tells you to follow "them" then they are lying, because it is only by following Christ that we can be "saved".

I share about Jesus Christ and what He is like and what His witness is.


When Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, I know you also know that Jesus did it by becoming the cursed, becoming a curse for us to free us from the curse of the law.

Do we need to be freed from God. No. So, what is this about being freed from the curse of THE LAW of Moses. Obviously, the curse is NOT OF GOD, because there is nothing of the Spirit of God that we need to be FREED from, we need to be IN HIS SPIRIT, not freed from something of it.


Jesus did NO WORKS OF THE CURSE TO ANYONE. Yet he fulfilled the law. So, what did He do?


Jesus kept and fulfilled the Spirit of love that is the ten commandments in a literal word about something spiritual. Love keeps the commandments, but the actual doing of the ten commandments that are literally written out, takes the Spiritual quality that is LOVE. God's love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that is given to US. There is the power of the Spirit to us, and there is what we are TO FOLLOW.

This is the DAY STAR arising in our hearts, and we then have the POWER to become sons of God, just as scripture also says.


Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The scripture above says they will have ability or power "to become" sons, it does not say they are already so.


Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Please note that the DISCIPLES are told that it is NOT for them to know something about the time and the seasons. But there is a time when WE who are in the last days, MUST KNOW these things. We are to put on ALL the armour OF GOD. Today is that time.


I am literally talking about the way the following scripture tells us we are to "fight".


2Co 10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.


Yes, even for those who are Christians, and WALK in the flesh in this world, we are NOT to war after the flesh, like men do. But we have.

The weapons we have and are to use is the loving witness and wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the teaching of Jesus to us. Not warring after the ways of the flesh, which we see in the world.


We are to, love our enemies, turn the other cheek financially, socially, physically, and emotionally.

We are to pray for them that despitefully use us, we are to forgive all men their trespasses against us just like we have been forgiven ours, and so on.

Those are our weapons we are to use. If we use those spiritual weapons, within our hearts and minds, we will see and be the "coming of the son of Man". Jesus will be raising up Himself in His "dead" body {us} to make that many membered body ALIVE in His Lordship in it.

In New Jerusalem, which we are to be members of, there is NO MORE CURSE. That means, it is not of the eternal Spirit, Core.

So the works of the curse and the teaching of it in a literal physically implemented manner is not of the eternal Spirit either. But a literal spiritually implemented fulfillment of the judgment scriptures, by the spirit of life, is of the eternal spirit.

Thank you, and God bless,
Keny

[CoreIssue]

keny, you already have a discussion going in the Universal Salvation thread. Leave that stuff there.

The issue you are dodging, here, is that that the Bible says to listen to and test, what is said, against the scriptures.

You have been tested and are found to be making declaration never said in the Bible, in contradiction to the Bible and in violation of word meaning and grammar.

Thus, by definition, you are a false teacher. Not one with simple error, but a false teacher because you have another Gospel.

Simple, easy question here that doesn't require more than one simple sentence to answer. HOW can you best tested to prove your claims? Sure not from a proper, literal reading of the Bible by word definition and rules of grammar.

The Bible was never intended to be read many ways. It was intended to be read the correct way, by word meaning and rules of grammar.

[CoreIssue]

Let me add here, keny. Answer my question asked in the post above FIRST. Don't launch into more 'teaching' and preaching until we resolve how you are to be tested by us.

The preaching has gone far enough. Time for some answers on key issues.

[keny]

Let me add here, keny. Answer my question asked in the post above FIRST. Don't launch into more 'teaching' and preaching until we resolve how you are to be tested by us.

The preaching has gone far enough. Time for some answers on key issues.

here is your question, I think. Do I salute too. {g}

Simple, easy question here that doesn't require more than one simple sentence to answer. HOW can
you best tested to prove your claims? Sure not from a proper, literal reading of the Bible by
word definition and rules of grammar.

Pray and ask God. I mean this. Continue to do so until you get a clear answer one way or the other. Tell God sincerely, you really feel you need to be very clear on this matter and you would like an answer you can understand.

There is another way WITH this one. See if what is said agrees with Jesus' witness. Did Jesus do any works of the physical curse? In fact, did not Jesus disannull Moses law about stoning a person taken in adultery? Yes, He did.

How did He do it. He had all the accusers remove themselves from accusing. Think about that please.

Jesus said He was the TRUE Manna from heaven and that Moses did not give them the manna {word} from HEAVEN. So where was it from, Core?

God bless, keny

[CoreIssue]

Ah, so we pray until God tells us you were right?

But I am telling you that will all my spirit the Holy Spirit tells me you are wrong!

Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us, gives gifts of the spirit, I have gifts and so on. So don't go there.

Now, we disagree on what the Holy Spirit tells us. How do we resolve it? That IS what the Bible is for. To study, learn and test against. Which cannot be done your way.

[keny]

Deleted by CoreIssue
I said do not start preaching and teaching again until we resolved this issue.

Do not tell me you did not mean pray until I agreed with you. You said:
Pray and ask God. I mean this. Continue to do so until you get a clear answer one way or the other. Tell God sincerely, you really feel you need to be very clear on this matter and you would like an answer you can understand.
I asked you HOW do we resolve the fact that the Holy Spirit tells me you are totally wrong.

God does not have multiple truths and you are insisting you have the truth from God.

But God tells me you are a false teacher.

HOW do we resolve the issue of each believing the Holy Spirit told us something completely different concerning what you are trying to teach here?

HOW do we resolve the conflict of who is right and who is wrong?

Do NOT try to preach and teach again.

You are on the spot here, as I mean you to be. Trapped in having to give an answer you cannot possibly give.

To say pray is in conflict with the simple fact I already told you God tells me you are wrong.

To say study the Bible literallly contradicts what you have stated.

Now, you tell me, and us, how do two people resolve such conflicts when they both are adamently in disagreement over what the Holy Spirit told them?

You are trapped on this question. In your ways there is no way to do so. It is either your way or no way.

[CTZonEdit]

*IF* we CONTINUE in Jesus' word, THEN we are His disciples indeed, and shall know the truth.

Only if we are following the correct Jesus.

If we follow one and you follow another, one of us is wrong.

The fate of those following another Christ:
Mat 7:15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'