Is The Doctrine of Universal Reconciliation Biblical?

[eahaddix]

Members of KingdomLife.com's KingdomTalk forums or any like-minded individuals, can you provide me with Biblical Scriptural prooftexting for the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Salvation?

Please provide me with a personal, straightforward, and reasonably sized answer. I will not accept a "copy and paste" of any files or webpages.

[keny]

Hello Lucky.

I will share a few scriptures with you and then you will decide for yourself if there is merit in looking further for yourself or not. I will try to keep it short.

We are talking about God, here, who nothing is too hard for him to accomplish. He set out to give life to the creation. Man's predisposition to be naturally prejudiced for himself over others fights against God being able to bring all into the fold because they think that salvation is accomplished by saying a few words.

Jesus never told anyone that they were "saved" by saying they believed he died for them, or that they believed in him, or that they were sorry, or any such thing. Jesus simply told people, when he was around in Israel in the flesh, to go and sin no more. He must have known it was possible. But salvation is not accomplished by saying we believe that Jesus died for us.

Romans 5 tells us that it is His life that saves us from wrath, not His death. In fact, when he is "dead" to us and our knowledge, we are ignorant and are unable to even know about him properly. After all, he is DEAD to us in that state.

Jesus said on the cross, father, forgive them, they know not what they do. Many Christians sincerely say they now KNOW what they are doing, and by that mindset they are exempt or exempt themselves from the position of being forgiven because they do not know what they do. Of course, God knows we do not know what we do, most of the time, even when we think we do know.

This is not said to frighten anyone. A walk with Christ is necessary to actually sanctify the believer.

Having said that, I will use a few scriptures. They are in the KJV. Some here do not like that bible much, but I do not know how you feel about it, and I am not asking, unless you think it is important to say.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Do you see that it says that when or while we are STILL enemies, we are reconciled to God by the DEATH of His son. That means, enemies of God, my friend. All enemies. The "enemies" are reconciled by the death of Christ while they\we are STILL enemies. Think about this a bit if you must.

Most Christians came to a knowledge of Christ long after they were first born in the world, which was also long after Jesus died on the Cross in Israel.

Because of that position of enemies being reconciled, we are able to be saved from wrath BY HIS LIFE, as His life is established in us as who we are. This of course does not take place when we are still in the mind and heart that is "against" the truth of God and we remain in the position of not knowing what we do.

Keep in mind that the Israelites and their teachers were also present as those who did not know what they were doing.
They are included in the "forgiveness" of Christ, even when they do not take it. But the ways of walking in error also cause dire results, but they come from the ways of the world, not from God's Spirit.

The scripture also says that where there is no law, sin is not imputed.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.}

This scripture is referring to what Paul is saying above and below this verse. He is saying that the law came by Moses, but where there is no law, sin is not imputed. There was no known law for believers BEFORE Moses, in fact.

Therefore, all who ever lived before the law came by Moses, have no sin imputed. This means, they were already "forgiven" in position anyway. They did not know what they were doing. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Also, during the time of Israel in the world after Moses and their exodus from Egypt, and up to the time of Christ, Israel was the ONLY ONE that had or knew about "the law". The Gentile nations did not have the law per se, and Israel in fact was not allowed to "evangelize" anyone who was not a Jew.

Why not.? The law was kept "away" from the Gentile nations knowledge. Thus, sin was not imputed to them by God.

For.. by the law is the knowledge of sin. Paul says this in Romans 7, and also Romans 3:20

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why does it say that by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified. It gives as a reason, BECUASE by the law is the knowledge of sin. We need to understand that this is also letting us know that the knowledge of sin DOES NOT COME TO US BY GOD. By that, I mean, the experience of sin and the sufferings from "sin" or ungodlike ways that prevail in the creation time to time.

The following scripture from Romans 5 tells us that it is while we are STILL sinners, that Christ died for us. Yes, while we still remained enemies, in other words, we are forgiven by Christ. But the scripture goes on to speak of a future work of God.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We "shall" be saved from wrath THROUGH HIM. As you know, the Christian world has been "looking for" and "waiting for" this day " to come". In other words, they believe correctly that it was not yet upon them in times past or even in the near past.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Please notice that it says that sin is not imputed where there is no law, but death still existed and reigned and ruled over those who did not have the law, anyway. So, the purpose of knowing what sin is, is to make us aware of just what it is that is really "causing our deaths". Since sin is not imputed where there is no law, and the scripture says that from Adam to Moses there was not law but men died anyway, we know it was the ways of SIN that they did not know about, that was killing them.

What is the "similitude of Adam's transgression" It is to sin "knowingly" that it is sin we are doing. Before that, men sinned but were "not knowing what they were doing". The law came to make them and us aware of just what it is that is causing our pain, suffering, sorrow, and death.

We are said, in Romans 5, to be a sinner because of "adam's" transgression. Also, we are all included in Adam's transgression even though we do not, or did not, do the same works as Adam's transgression, which was to sin or disobey God knowingly. But we are given the same result as what this "man" adam is said to have done.

Romans 5 then goes on to say that like we have been included in adam's transgression even though we did not partake of it in the way adam did, even so, or in the same way, we are all included in Jesus' righteousness, even though we have not {yet} partaken of His works either.

Included in one man to death, but all those who were included to be partakers of the reward of Adam the living soul man's transgression, so we are all going to be included in the reward of Christ Jesus for His righteousness. I know some may have trouble making this out right away, but look at the scriptures you have in your own bibles, and see what it does say. Try not to have any preconceived notions about it.

Also, the scripture in Romans 5:20 and 21, that where sin abounded, Grace is to abound MUCH MORE.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please look at the last verse in this chapter with some scrutiny.

IT starts out saying, As sin has reigned unto death....

Let us look at that. How and over who and how many, did sin reign until they died. It reigned OVER ALL, over everyone.

So, as sin has reigned over everyone until they died, ... the verse goes on to say,
even so might GRACE reign through righteousness unto Eternal life through Jesus Christ.

The words even so, can be understood to mean, in the same way sin ruled over everyone, so is grace to be reigning through the righteousness of Christ, UNTIL ETERNAL LIFE IS established in and to the same amount of people that were ruled by sin. That is all people except Jesus Christ.

What we have is this.

That in the way that sin reigned over all men until they died, {which was upon them without their doing the works of Adam}, in the same way {even so} might GRACE reign through the righteousness {of Christ, even though no one has done that righteousness yet}, UNTIL eternal life is established in them through and by Jesus Christ.

All who were ruled by sin shall be the same all that are under grace until Eternal life is established by Jesus Christ in us as His body.

We were not transgressors after the way Adam was, but, we did do the works of Adam. So, we have not yet been the righteousness of Christ, but just as we did the works of the first Adam, we are going to also be doers of the works {lifestyle} of the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

I have some more but this is already long so I will write another post.

If one believes this truth about God, that he has and can sanctify all people through Christ, one will begin to see it all over the scripture because it is then that God opens it up to us, line upon line.

Thank you, in Christ,
keny

[keny]

Hello Lucky. I am continuing to reply to your post. The scripture tells us that the promise of God is not going to be able to be disannulled by the law that came later. This is said in Galatians 3.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

When God gave the promise of life to Adam, as the breath of His nostrils, the promise will not be able to be disannulled by the events that occur later. How this affects us I will attempt to show.

In Hebrews 7, there is a scripture reference that tells us that Levi, while still as yet unborn, and even before Levi’s father was born, is credited with having paid tithes to Melchisedec while he, levi, was still in Abraham’s LOINS.

Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

In that statement, saying Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec while he was yet in the loins of Abraham, we can through that example, include Ishmael and all the lineage of Abraham through Him and through Isaac, forever through time, as being accredited with the same “deed” of paying tithes to Melchisedek. This would also include the children that Abraham had by his other wives after Sarah died.

So, by that biblical standard that is set for us, we can see that when Adam is credited with being given the promise of life from God, by the life of God, that everyone who was in the loins of Adam can be said to have received the very same promise. God does not suffer loss because of what man does in between being formed and becoming sanctified in Christ Jesus in actual sanctification and not in imputed righteousness only.

Every one who was ever born, and will ever be born, can be understood to have been in the loins of Adam, many membered or single individual, no matter how one sees Adam at this time. Thus, ALL received the promise of God. And as we know, the promises of God are SURE and will not be denigrated or made ineffective by a few problems that occur through the journey to maturity in Christ for Adam as the body of Christ.

Salvation is not accomplished through a few spoken words. It must become our lifestyle.

I hope this is food for thought as well.

God bless,
keny

[CTZonEdit]

keny-

Did Christ actually die, and was He actually raised again 3 days later?

[keny]

Hello CTZ Moderator.

Yes.

Bless, keny

[CTZonEdit]

Thats a good start.

He literally and physically died.
He literally and physically rose again.

Now why did He die and why was He resurrected?

[keny]

Thats a good start.

He literally and physically died.
He literally and physically rose again.

Now why did He die and why was He resurrected?

Hello Core. I have to add something that not many seem to think about.

Jesus Christ's flesh BODY died, and it was HIS BODY that was restored to life. {resurrected}. His body was made alive by, and because, HE was IN IT. So, when the body lay in the tomb, it was dead and could not walk, talk, etc, because there was no life in it. And.. it is THAT SAME body that he had walked in and talked in that he took to be with the father, from INSIDE OF IT.

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Here is a scripture we can look at literally.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


So, He suffered and died that He might bring us to God.

Here is a little bit about that life that is the light of the world. It was the Spirit of life that restored life to the body of Jesus. Quickened by the Spirit.


Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it no

In Him was LIFE, and it is THE LIFE that is the LIGHT OF MEN.
Life, God's life, is the LIGHT OF MEN. That is what the light of NEW JERUSALEM IS. So, to literalize this light as "light" as we commonly know it from light bulbs or the sun, will not edify anyone truthfully. That life that enlightens is HOLY as well.

So, if all men are to be lighted by "the light of the world", which is the life of God, the Father IN Jesus, they too must all be lighted by God's LIFE from within. No one will "see" that life through the filter of life in the world.


We know scripture tells us that even though we as mankind think we are alive, God calls our life, death. We are said to have been DEAD in trespasses and sins, but we were alive in worldly terms at the same time. So.

It is THE LIFE that was in Jesus that is and will be the LIGHT OF THE WORLD. It is more than just being alive in the world.

As to why did He die. He died BY the works of sin in the creation, and He did NO VIOLENCE in return or at all. Isaiah 53.

Here is the spirit of what crucified and killed Jesus. The spirit of sin in man. I know many say He died "for" our sins, but it is true he died BY our sins, or the sins of the creation if you prefer.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


When he was reviled, he reviled not again, when he was threatened, he threatened not, he turned the other cheek, and the like. Yes, the LIGHT of the world.


The "darkness" refused the light. So, if the life in Christ Jesus was the light of the world, what is the darkness of the world... but the life of sin in man.


One way to understand this is to say that the light was in the darkness of the flesh, and man could not see Jesus because all they saw was a man that they assumed was like they were. But also, the darkness shined to man by comparison against the life or ways of man.

Jesus did not need for MAN to testify of him, because he knew/knows what is in man.


Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

{basically, this scripture above is in line with what I said that caused you to think I was thinking myself special, which is not it at all} Jesus does not commit himself to "man", the things of man in us can not see Him. This is a spiritual exercise.


As to why he was resurrected, there is a couple of answers, all scriptural. And, yes he was raised from the dead to bring us to God.


But he was also raised from the dead because it was not right that He should remain dead, because of righteousness.


When we read that He is our righteousness, I think as sincere Christians we should look to the "end" of that literal word and see that it ALSO means, when we are actually truly righteous as He is righteous, HE will be who we are, spiritually.

in other words, we must all become the "perfect/mature MAN" that Jesus Christ is to be actually and truly righteous. Until then, grace will continue to reign until... as the scripture says, eternal life is established.


Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

There is a sleight of man that we do not often think of, and it is our OWN man nature that can deceive us about what God is like. God is not like a man, and it is the things in man that need to be "divided". That is what the resurrection of Christ Jesus within us as His body accomplised with us.

The goats and the sheep are both character qualities and ways that are in us all.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Please look at the following scripture and see that GOD is who was not imputing the sins to us. God changes not.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

jesus was raised from the dead "for our justification".

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Let us think. Do we think raising Jesus Christ from the dead and having him remain in heaven or with the Father, will actually justify us in fact. I mean, make us just. I don't think so.

He has to be THE LIFE IN US, here, in the world. Not just as a seed, either. It is God's life in us all, and God must reconcile or return that life to Himself with Himself in it as His son, and bring our body alive along with HIM.

I do not know if this is satisfactory to you in regard to what you asked of me, but if it is not, please continue to ask.

God bless, keny

[eahaddix]

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, keny. :tiphat:

Jesus never told anyone that they were "saved" by saying they believed he died for them, or that they believed in him, or that they were sorry, or any such thing.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

This is incorrect. In fact, you are teaching the diametic opposite of what Biblical Scripture teaches.

Scripture states that Christ Jesus, God made flesh[1], lived under the Law[2] without breaking the Law[3], died to pay our sin debt[4], and was resurrected by God[5] after three days[6] to bring us new life[7][8]. If anyone truly believes in this good news, then Scripture states that one should turn to God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) in Goldy repentance[9] and call on Christ Jesus as Lord[10] and Savior[11] in genuine[12] belief[13].

And after this, by his grace alone[14], God credits one with his righteousness[15].

Footnotes:
[1] John 1:1-2, 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2,%204;&version=31;), Galatians 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204:4;&version=31;), Philippians 2:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202:5-7;&version=31;).
[2] Galatians 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204:4;&version=31;).
[3] Hebrews 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%204:15;&version=31;), 1 Peter 1:18-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:18-19;&version=31;), ref. Ephesians 5:25-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:25-27;&version=31;), Colossians 1:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:21-22;&version=31;).
[4] Christ Jesus died with a substitutional (2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:21;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24;&version=31;), Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:13;&version=31;), Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;)) sacrificial (Hebrews 10:10-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:10-14;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27-28;&version=31;), 1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18;&version=31;), 1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;)) death (Mark 8:31-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%208:31-32;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:3-8;&version=31;), Matthew 26:20, 26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:20,%2026-29;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:22;&version=31;)).
[5] 1 Peter 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:21;&version=31;), 1 Peter 3:18-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18-19;&version=31;).
[6] John 2:18-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%202:18-21;&version=31;), Matthew 12:39-40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:39-40;&version=31;), Mark 8:31-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%208:31-32;&version=31;), Mark 9:31-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:31-32;&version=31;), Mark 15:25-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2015:25-30;&version=31;), etc.
[7] Hebrews 13:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2013:20;&version=31;), Acts 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:24;&version=31;), Romans 6:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:9-10;&version=31;), Romans 4:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:25;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:14, 17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:14,%2017;&version=31;), cross ref. Romans 6:3-5, 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:3-5,%208;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 54-57 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:20-23,%2054-57;&version=31;).
[8] See brief summary in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:1-8;&version=31;).
[9] 2 Corinthians 7:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%207:10;&version=31;), 2 Timothy 2:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:19;&version=31;), Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=31;), Acts 2:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%202:38;&version=31;), Acts 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%203:19;&version=31;), cross ref. Luke 5:27-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%205:27-32;&version=31;), Luke 24:46-47 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:46-47;&version=31;), Acts 20:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2020:21;&version=31;), Acts 26:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2026:20;&version=31;), etc.
[10] Matthew 16:13-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:13-18;&version=31;), 1 John 5:1, 5, 10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:1,%205,%2010-12;&version=31;), 1 John 2:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:22-23;&version=31;), Romans 10:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-10;&version=31;), ref. John 20:26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:26-29;&version=31;).
[11] John 11:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011:25;&version=31;), John 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:6;&version=31;), Acts 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:12;&version=31;), cross ref. Isaiah 43:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:11;&version=31;), Hosea 13:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%2013:4;&version=31;).
[12] One's salvation is evidenced by one's good works (James 2:14-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:14-26;&version=31;) [cross ref. Ephesians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:10;&version=31;)], John 14:15, 21, 23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:15,%2021,%2023-24;&version=31;), 1 John 2:3-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:3-6;&version=31;), 1 John 4:7-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:7-21;&version=31;), etc.), one's cessation of voluntary sinful habits (1 John 3:3, 6, 9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:3,%206,%209-10;&version=31;), 1 John 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:18;&version=31;), Romans 8:5-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:5-14;&version=31;), etc., cross compare with Romans 7:14-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:14-25;&version=31;), Galatians 5:16-17, 25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:16-17,%2025;&version=31;), 1 John 2:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1-2;&version=31;), Galatians 6:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%206:1;&version=31;), etc.), and one's continual genuine confession of Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:3;&version=31;), 1 John 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:15;&version=31;), 1 John 2:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:23;&version=31;) [cross ref. Matthew 10:32-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:32-33;&version=31;)], Romans 10:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-10;&version=31;), etc.).
[13] John 8:23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:23-24;&version=31;), John 20:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:31;&version=31;), John 3:16, 18, 36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16,%2018,%2036;&version=31;), Mark 16:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:16;&version=31;), etc.
[14] Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=31;).
[15] Philippians 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:9;&version=31;), Genesis 15:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2015:6;&version=31;), Romans 4:1-5, 23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:1-5,%2023-24;&version=31;), James 2:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:23;&version=31;).

Jesus simply told people, when he was around in Israel in the flesh, to go and sin no more. He must have known it was possible.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

And? God the Father does not forgive sins which remain unatoned for (Hebrews 9:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:22;&version=31;)).

Romans 5 tells us that it is His life that saves us from wrath, not His death.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

This is incorrect. In fact, you are teaching the diametic opposite of what Biblical Scripture teaches.

Consider 1 John 2:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1-2;&version=31;). In 1 John 2:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1-2;&version=31;), John explains how believers who sin are protected from God the Father's wrath. Specifically, in verse 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1;&version=31;), John states that believers have Christ Jesus as an "advocate (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3875)"[1] [NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1;&version=9;)] or "one who speaks in [their] defense (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3875)" [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1;&version=31;)]. And, in verse 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;), John builds on this idea by stating that Christ Jesus's sacrifical death is an "atoning sacrifice (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434)" [NIV] (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;) and "propitiation (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434)" [NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=9;)][2][3].

Footnotes:
[1] Christ Jesus's advocacy (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3875) (1 John 2:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:1;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+2%3A1&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), ref. Romans 8:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:34;&version=31;), Hebrews 7:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:25;&version=31;)) parallels God the Spirit's advocacy (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3875) (John 14:16, 26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16,%2026;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=John+14%3A16%2C+26&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), John 15:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:26;&version=31;), John 16:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:7;&version=31;), ref. Romans 8:26-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:26-27;&version=31;)),
[2] The term hilasmos (Strong's #2434) (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434) contains a dual reference to Christ Jesus's "atoning sacrifice," as in the act itself (1 John 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:10;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+4%3A10&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)
(http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1%20John&chapter=4&verse=10)) and its propitiatory nature (1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+2%3A2&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)
(http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1%20John&chapter=2&verse=2)). Specifically, 1 John 4:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:10;&version=31;) highlights Christ Jesus's "atoning sacrifice" itself as a loving act (cross ref. John 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16;&version=31;), John 15:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:13;&version=31;)), while 1 John 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=31;) references Christ Jesus's "atoning sacrifice" as a "propitiation."
[3] By definition, a "propitiation (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434)" [NASB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=49;), KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:2;&version=9;)] refers to regaining the favor or the goodwill of another, a concept which includes appeasement (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/appeasement) (ref.) (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/propitiation).

Jesus said on the cross, father, forgive them, they know not what they do. Many Christians sincerely say they now KNOW what they are doing, and by that mindset they are exempt or exempt themselves from the position of being forgiven because they do not know what they do. Of course, God knows we do not know what we do, most of the time, even when we think we do know.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

You are quoting from Luke 23:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023:34;&version=31;). How do you know that Luke 23:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2023:34;&version=31;) expresses a prerequisite for salvation?

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Do you see that it says that when or while we are STILL enemies, we are reconciled to God by the DEATH of His son. That means, enemies of God, my friend. All enemies.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

You are inserting doctrinal presuppositions into Romans 5:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:10;&version=31;). Specifically, you are presupposing that Paul uses the term "we" as a reference to all of mankind, as opposed to a select group.

However, the second person plurality of "we" refers to those who have faith in Christ Jesus (Romans 5:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:1-2;&version=31;)). Christ Jesus died for the sake of "Abraham's descendents" (Hebrews 2:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%202:14-16;&version=31;)), who are "sons of God" through faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:6-9, 26, 29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:6-9,%2026,%2029;&version=31;)), not all of mankind.

Let us look at that. How and over who and how many, did sin reign until they died. It reigned OVER ALL, over everyone.
So, as sin has reigned over everyone until they died, ... the verse goes on to say,
even so might GRACE reign through righteousness unto Eternal life through Jesus Christ.

The words even so, can be understood to mean, in the same way sin ruled over everyone, so is grace to be reigning through the righteousness of Christ, UNTIL ETERNAL LIFE IS established in and to the same amount of people that were ruled by sin. That is all people except Jesus Christ.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

You are engaging in non-sequitur reasoning. The fact that sin reigned over all men (Romans 5:12, 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12,%2014;&version=31;)) does not automatically mean that grace will reign over all men.

To the contrary, Romans 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:17;&version=31;) states that grace will reign in those who receive Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430)'s provision of grace. And those who have faith in Christ Jesus receive Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430)'s provision of grace (Romans 5:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:2;&version=31;)).

Included in one man to death, but all those who were included to be partakers of the reward of Adam the living soul man's transgression, so we are all going to be included in the reward of Christ Jesus for His righteousness.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

That in the way that sin reigned over all men until they died, {which was upon them without their doing the works of Adam}, in the same way {even so} might GRACE reign through the righteousness {of Christ, even though no one has done that righteousness yet}, UNTIL eternal life is established in them through and by Jesus Christ.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

You are engaging in non-sequitur reasoning. The fact that we are involuntarily condemned by Adam's sin does not mean that we are involuntarily saved by Christ Jesus's righteousness.

Our involuntarily condemnation under Adam is partially a racial issue, not simply a spiritual choice. Adam and Eve (ref. Genesis 3:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:20;&version=31;)) are the genealogical origin of all mankind (i.e. Genesis 4:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204:1-2;&version=31;), Genesis 4:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%204:25;&version=31;), Genesis 5:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%205:3-4;&version=31;), 1 Chronicles 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Chronicles%201;&version=31;), Luke 3:23-38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203:23-38;&version=31;)).Hence, everyone dies "in" or because of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:22;&version=31;)), for "sin," or the sinful nature, is racially or genealogically passed down (Psalm 51:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2051:5;&version=31;), John 9:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209:34;&version=31;)) from Adam, otherwise Adam's sin would be irrelevant to our lives (ref. Romans 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:19;&version=31;)).

Moreover, the sinful nature is an overwhelming influence which nobody has resisted (ref. James 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:14-15;&version=31;), cross ref. 1 Kings 8:46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%208:46;&version=31;), 2 Chronicles 6:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%206:36;&version=31;), Ecclesiastes 7:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%207:20;&version=31;), etc.), except Christ Jesus himself (Hebrews 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%204:15;&version=31;), 1 Peter 1:18-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:18-19;&version=31;)).

However, Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430)'s grace is not racially or genealogically passed down, for the "new birth" is an individual spiritual rebirth (John 1:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:12-13;&version=31;), John 3:3-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3-8;&version=31;)).

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.}

This scripture is referring to what Paul is saying above and below this verse. He is saying that the law came by Moses, but where there is no law, sin is not imputed. There was no known law for believers BEFORE Moses, in fact.

Therefore, all who ever lived before the law came by Moses, have no sin imputed. This means, they were already "forgiven" in position anyway.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

I disagree. Even in Abraham's time, Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430) credited people's faith as righteousness (i.e. Genesis 15:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2015:6;&version=31;)).

Also, during the time of Israel in the world after Moses and their exodus from Egypt, and up to the time of Christ, Israel was the ONLY ONE that had or knew about "the law". The Gentile nations did not have the law per se, and Israel in fact was not allowed to "evangelize" anyone who was not a Jew.

Why not.? The law was kept "away" from the Gentile nations knowledge. Thus, sin was not imputed to them by God.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

I disagree. Everyone can die "in sin" without the Law or under the Law (Romans 2:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:12;&version=31;)), for obedience of Law means more than awareness of the Law (Romans 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:13%20;&version=31;)). For instance, in Romans 2:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:14-15;&version=31;), Paul states that the Gentiles are under the law of the conscience (Romans 2:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:15;&version=31;)), which parallels Mosiac Law and produces universal self-conviction (Romans 2:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:14;&version=31;)). And the said distinctions will be honored in Christ Jesus's judgment of people (Romans 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:16%20;&version=31;)).

The scripture tells us that the promise of God is not going to be able to be disannulled by the law that came later. This is said in Galatians 3.

[Post #3] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16533&postcount=3)

What promise to whom?

In Galatians 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203;&version=31;), Paul highlights the fact that Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430) reckoned Abraham's faith as righteousness (Galatians 3:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:6;&version=31;)). Paul interpreted this fact as a forshadowing of the Gospel (Galatians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:8;&version=31;)), where all men would be justified by faith (Galatians 3:7, 9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:7,%209;&version=31;)).

However, in order to fulfill this prophetic promise (ref. Romans 4:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:13%20;&version=31;)), Elohiym (http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0430) promised Abraham that all nations will be blessed "in [him]" (Galatians 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:8;&version=31;), Genesis 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2012:3;&version=31;)) or "in his seed" (Genesis 22:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2022:18;&version=31;)). But when Paul says "in [him]" or "in his seed," Paul refers to Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:16;&version=31;)), in whom[1] includes anyone who believes in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26-27, 29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:26-27,%2029;&version=31;)[2]). And Paul states that Mosaic Law never nullified this promise (Genesis 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:18;&version=31;)).

Footnotes:
[1] In the Pauline epistles, the phraseology "in Christ Jesus" refers to the people or things which belong to or come from Christ Jesus, such as in believers (Ephesians 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:13;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:2%20;&version=31;), ref. Ephesians 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=31;), Colossians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:2;&version=31;)), the Body of Christ (Romans 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012:5;&version=31;)), and a way of life (1 Corinthians 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%204:17;&version=31;)). Likewise, Paul uses the same phraseology for "the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2013:5;&version=31;), 1 Timothy 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%201:2;&version=31;)).
[2] The salvific baptism "into Christ Jesus" (ref. Galatians 3:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:27;&version=31;)) comes from the baptism of God the Spirit (Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%203:5;&version=31;), John 3:3-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3-8;&version=31;)), which adds one to the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:13;&version=31;)). However, only those who believe in Christ Jesus receive God the Spirit (John 7:37-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:37-39;&version=31;), Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:13-14;&version=31;)).

When God gave the promise of life to Adam, as the breath of His nostrils, the promise will not be able to be disannulled by the events that occur later.

[Post #3] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16533&postcount=3)

And where does Biblical Scripture equate "the breath of Adam's nostrils" (ref. Genesis 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%202:7;&version=31;)) with a divine promise of salvation?

If one believes this truth about God, that he has and can sanctify all people through Christ, one will begin to see it all over the scripture because it is then that God opens it up to us, line upon line.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2)

I disagree. The issue is not about discovering a truth which is woven into Biblical Scripture, but rather adopting certain doctrinal presuppositions which you can insert into different Scriptures.

[keny]

Hello Lucky.

Thanks for the reply. I am sorry that you went to all that trouble to find scriptures that you feel support whatever it is you believe. I never said at any time that it was not BY GRACE that we are saved. But I do say, that does not mean we are going to be "left" to remain ignorant and immature.

When a baby is born to a human family, they impute NO wrong doing to the baby, even though the baby does many things that are less than what we consider "adult". But that does not mean the baby remains in that state.

The scripture does say, that it is by the law of Moses that the knowledge of Sin comes. The purpose of making us aware that we are "short of God's glory", if I may use those terms, is so we can begin to be "matured". If one thinks they have no need to change, they resist change.

I can get the scriptures if you want them. But you know, that the scripture says we ALL must appear before the judgment seat of Christ for the things done in the body. What we are not to do, is be afraid to be judged with God. In fact, we all HAVE to be judged with or by God to become more mature sons and be able to be "lords" in the creation in the manner that God intended from the beginning.

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

And then there is these scriptures as well, about "believers" with the Holy Spirit, being dealt with in some manner. These are not intended to make anyone afraid to have a relationship with God, but it is talking about "believers" too.

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

And then of course, there is this one.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Let me ask you, where do you think this "crucifying of the son of God afresh or again" and to themselves, takes place?

God remains full of grace, but we are going to have to "grow up" spiritually speaking. I mean, just witness all the differences and problems between christian professing peoples right now. The world, and especially Christians, NEED the judgment of God to take place which will cause all to be far more honest and far less greedy, etc. God desires an equality in the world.

But God does not deal with the blind, we HAVE to understand what God wants, and what and how He wants to do it WITH US. We need the eyes of our understanding opened much more than it is at present.
God must make the eyes and the ears we need for this.

You see, Lucky, we have to believe much more about the grace of God than most have ever yet given God credit for having. We have to KNOW that we are entering into Judgment with God, right here while still in the body where the resistance is, for our benefit and for the eventual benefit of the whole creation.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I cannot stress enough that you really look at those words, through YOUR MERCY. Think about it with God if you desire. Ask him about these words. Think about the woman taken in adultery, and how Jesus caused the "accusers" to remove themselves and the accusations with them.

The light of the world is the LIFE that was in Jesus Christ.

God comes IN OUR LIFE to bring HIS LIFE, { the light} to our awareness and understanding as Sons. God comes from within the HOLY PLACE, which is the life in us. God desires his children who are matured by Him, to be the gardener for him in his creation. A gardener, not a destroyer.

If any do not believe that God would like to make them a member of the body of Christ, really matured by God, to bring a full truth of God in a living way to all people, they will not have enough grace in them to allow themselves to believe that God will judge them into the fullness of His spirit.

You may have heard some Christians say that Christ desired to have Isreal be matured and follow Him, to be a many membered body of disciples to take the truth of God to the world. But the world was not ready, really.

But we have the example, and we also have the scripture that tells us when our time comes, we should not make the SAME
MISTAKE.

You are aware of the following scriptures, I am sure.

Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

We want to understand that ALL Israel suffered these same things over the centuries. Here is what the scripture says.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So, should we really be expectant to be made perfect WITHOUT THEM? No, we should not. God is not a respector of persons.

You see, all of Israel suffered for OUR SAKES, without receiving the promise at this time yet. But they are in their own land again, physically.

Sort of like a "resurrection" of the nation of Israel. It is a sign unto the Gentiles, the world, and to the church. Are they really reading that sign PROPERLY, or just in part. I would say that at this time, it is just in a small part, not understanding what it means for the world.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The above scripture is addressing all of Israel, whose eyes were darkened. Through all Israel's fall, salvation is given to the Gentiles.

Then, it says, now, if the fall of them was the benefit of the Gentiles, how much more shall the "fullness" or gathering of them be a time that is even much better for the Gentiles.

In other words, the loss to Israel brought the riches of the GOSPEL of salvation to the world, and now the gathering of the nation of Jewish peoples, will bring much more "riches" to the WORLD.

Thank you, and God bless,
keny

[eahaddix]

Welcome back, keny. :tiphat: Since your posts are getting longer in length, I will address the "high points" or the key points only.

I never said at any time that it was not BY GRACE that we are saved.

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

This is not the point. The Gospel entails more than unqualified salvation by grace, as demonstrated by my previous post (Post #8 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16600&postcount=8)).

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it no

In Him was LIFE, and it is THE LIFE that is the LIGHT OF MEN.
Life, God's life, is the LIGHT OF MEN. That is what the light of NEW JERUSALEM IS. So, to literalize this light as "light" as we commonly know it from light bulbs or the sun, will not edify anyone truthfully. That life that enlightens is HOLY as well.

So, if all men are to be lighted by "the light of the world", which is the life of God, the Father IN Jesus, they too must all be lighted by God's LIFE from within.

[Post #7] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16597&postcount=7)

God comes IN OUR LIFE to bring HIS LIFE, { the light} to our awareness and understanding as Sons.

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

You are engaging in non-sequitur reasoning. The phraseology "light of the world" (John 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:12;&version=31;)) does not automatically mean "the light which the whole world receives," for evil people refuse to enter the light (John 3:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:19-21;&version=31;)).

Nowhere does John 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:4;&version=31;) or John 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:12;&version=31;) state that Christ Jesus gives the said light of life (ref. John 11:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011:25;&version=31;)) to all of mankind.

jesus was raised from the dead "for our justification".

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[Post #7] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16597&postcount=7)

Your own Scriptural quotation refutes the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation. Specifically, the said imputation of righteousness applies to those who believe in Christ Jesus (Romans 4:23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:23-24;&version=31;)), not all of mankind.

Please look at the following scripture and see that GOD is who was not imputing the sins to us.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

jesus was raised from the dead "for our justification".

[Post #7] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16597&postcount=7)

In 2 Corinthians 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:19;&version=31;), Paul states that God the Father is "reconciling (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2644)"[1] the world to himself "in Christ"[2]. However, anyone who is "in Christ" is a "new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:17;&version=31;))[3] and lives by faith (2 Corinthians 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:7;&version=31;))[4]. As a result, 2 Corinthians 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:19;&version=31;) cannot refer to all of mankind, but rather believers who meet the said criteria.

Footnotes:
[1] In 2 Corinthians 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:19;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Corinthians+5%3A19&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), k (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2644)atallasso (Strong's #2644) (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2644) occurs in the present tense (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/extras.cgi?number=5723). This means that 2 Corinthians 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:19;&version=31;) refers to an in-progress event, which does not set an end result or any parameters for its application.
[2] In the Pauline epistles, the phraseology "in Christ Jesus" refers to the people or things which belong to or come from Christ Jesus, such as in believers (Ephesians 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:13;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:2%20;&version=31;), ref. Ephesians 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:1;&version=31;), Colossians 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:2;&version=31;)), the Body of Christ (Romans 12:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012:5;&version=31;)),and a way of life (1 Corinthians 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%204:17;&version=31;)). Likewise, Paul uses the same phraseology for "the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2013:5;&version=31;), 1 Timothy 1:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%201:2;&version=31;)).
[3] Being a "new creation" in Christ Jesus (ref. Ephesians 4:22-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:22-24;&version=31;), Colossians 3:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:9-10;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:10;&version=31;)) refers to the regenation of one's spirit by God the Spirit (Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%203:5;&version=31;), ref. John 3:3-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:3-8;&version=31;)). However, only those who believe in Christ Jesus receive God the Spirit (John 7:37-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:37-39;&version=31;), Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201:13-14;&version=31;)), who authenticates the believer's faith (1 Corinthians 12:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2012:3;&version=31;)).
[4] The phraseology "live by faith" refers to living by a faith in Christ Jesus (Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;)).

We have to KNOW that we are entering into Judgment with God, right here while still in the body where the resistance is, for our benefit and for the eventual benefit of the whole creation.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

Where does Romans 8:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:11;&version=31;) and Romans 8:38-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:38-39;&version=31;) state that the said promises apply to all of mankind?

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

Nowhere does Romans 11:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:32;&version=31;) define "have mercy on them all" as meaning "have a saving mercy on all of mankind."

In Romans 11:11-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:11-32;&version=31;), Paul explains how Israel's rebellion has produced salvific opportunities for the Jews and the Gentiles. Specifically, in response to the Israeli community's unbelief (Romans 11:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:20;&version=31;), ref. Romans 9:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:30-32;&version=31;), Romans 10:16-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:16-21;&version=31;)), God has given salvation to the Gentiles (Romans 11:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:11;&version=31;))[1]. As a result, the Israeli community should become envious (Romans 11:11, 13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:11,%2013-14;&version=31;)), thereby provoking some Jews to salvation (Romans 11:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:14;&version=31;)). However, Israel's hardening of unbelief will not end until "the full number of the Gentiles come in" (Romans 11:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:25;&version=31;)).

To illustrate, Paul uses the imagery of plant grafting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafting). Specifically, after God removed the branch of disbelieving Israel from the root, God grafted the branch of the Gentiles into the root (Romans 11: 17, 19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:%2017,%2019-20;&version=31;)). However, if the branch of Israel does not persist in disbelief, then the branch of Israel will be grafted into the root (Romans 11:23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:23-24;&version=31;)). Pursuant to this assertion, Paul tells the grafted branch of the Gentiles to refrain from boasting (Romans 11:18, 20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:18,%2020-22;&version=31;)), for God holds both of the said branches accountable for their actions (Romans 11:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:22;&version=31;)).

Hence, in Romans 11:30-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:30-31;&version=31;), Paul concludes by equating the disobedience of the Israeli community and the Gentile community. Specifically, Paul states that the disobedient Gentiles have received God's mercy due to Israel's disobedience (Romans 11:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:30;&version=31;)), while the disobedient Jews receive God's mercy due to their own disobedience (Romans 11:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:31;&version=31;))[2]. As a result, in Romans 11:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:32;&version=31;), Paul concludes that the Jewish people and the Gentile people are equally disobedient, thereby possessing a mutual access to God's mercy.

So no, Romans 11:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:32;&version=31;) does not teach that all of mankind experiences salvation. To the contrary, you must isolate Romans 11:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:32;&version=31;) from the context of Romans 11:11-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:32;&version=31;) in order to superimpose your doctrinal presuppositions onto Romans 11:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:32;&version=31;).

Footnotes:
[1] In the Old Testament, the Gentiles were saved through the nation of Israel (Deuteronomy 4:5-8, 32-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%204:5-8,%2032-39;&version=31;), Psalm 147:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20147:19-20;&version=31;), Romans 3:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:1-2;&version=31;)), which God set apart from other nations (Deuteronomy 7:6-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%207:6-8;&version=31;), Deuteronomy 10:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2010:15;&version=31;), Exodus 19:5-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2019:5-6;&version=31;), Deuteronomy 14:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2014:2;&version=31;), Deuteronomy 33:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2033:29;&version=31;), etc.). Because of this Old Testament reality, Christ Jesus and the Apostles were sent to Israel first (Isaiah 49:5-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2049:5-6;&version=31;), Romans 15:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2015:8;&version=31;), Luke 1:35-36, 41, 46-47, 54-55, 57, 67-68, 72 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:35-36,%2041,%2046-47,%2054-55,%2057,%2067-68,%2072;&version=31;), Acts 3:25-26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%203:25-26;&version=31;), Romans 9:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:4;&version=31;), Romans 11:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2015:8;&version=31;), ref. Romans 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:16;&version=31;), Acts 13:46-47 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013:46-47;&version=31;), Matthew 15:21-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:21-28;&version=31;)). However, in the New Testament, the Gentiles are saved by God directly (Acts 10:27-29, 34-35, 44-48 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010:27-29,%2034-35,%2044-48%20;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:11-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:11-22;&version=31;)), for righteousness by faith hallmarks the true "children of Abraham" (Romans 9:6-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:6-9;&version=31;), Galatians 3:6-9, 16-19, 24-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:6-9,%2016-19,%2024-25;&version=31;), Romans 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204;&version=31;)).
[2] Romans 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:26;&version=31;) states that "all Israel will be saved." This reference refers to a remnant of Israel (Romans 11:2-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:2-5;&version=31;), Romans 9:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209:27-28;&version=31;)), which will survive the Tribulation (Joel 2:28-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joel%202:28-32;&version=31;), Daniel 12:1, 5-7, 11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2012:1,%205-7,%2011-12;&version=31;), cross ref. Matthew 24:15-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:15-31;&version=31;), Revelation 6:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%206:13;&version=31;), Revelation 8:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%208:10-12;&version=31;), Revelation 12:1-6, 13-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012:1-6,%2013-17;&version=31;), Daniel 9:24-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209:24-27;&version=31;), etc.).

When a baby is born to a human family, they impute NO wrong doing to the baby, even though the baby does many things that are less than what we consider "adult". But that does not mean the baby remains in that state.

The scripture does say, that it is by the law of Moses that the knowledge of Sin comes.

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

I already "touched on" these issues in my last post (Post #8 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16600&postcount=8)). Have you seen this?

But God does not deal with the blind, we HAVE to understand what God wants, and what and how He wants to do it WITH US. We need the eyes of our understanding opened much more than it is at present.
God must make the eyes and the ears we need for this.

You see, Lucky, we have to believe much more about the grace of God than most have ever yet given God credit for having.

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

So, in other words, are you implying that your interpretation of Biblical Scripture relies on extra-Scriptural personal revelation?

Thanks for the reply. I am sorry that you went to all that trouble to find scriptures that you feel support whatever it is you believe.

[Post #9] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16601&postcount=9)

"Whatever it is you believe"? Well, I guess that I deserve your pity, since you do not intend to read or address my counterargumentation.

[CoreIssue]

"Whatever it is you believe"? Well, I guess that I deserve your pity, since you do not intend to read or address my counterargumentation.

Lucky, he never addresses anyone's refutations. He just throws out a cliches and then moves on to preaching his doctrines.

That is why he is in his own forum, which is under cults. Because he is.

But, of course, you are already well aware of this. So this is actually for keny to read.:tiphat:

You have given excellent refutations to Universal Salvation. And as always, the adherents will not respond point for point.

[keny]

Hello Lucky.

Thank you again for your reply. I know this may seem a bit off topic for a moment, but I want to encourage you to read anyone's whole message before replying. Perhaps you already do that, but if you do not, you will find that sometimes the immediate answer one has to a the first few sentences of a post will change or become answered further done in the post.

Secondly, I would encourage you to answer from your own heart, and not from what some one else wrote. You will grow in your own understanding much quicker that way. A reply to something may take you longer that way, but if it is important take the time.

Also, I want to encourage you that if you are reading your bible or searching for certain answers to reply to this or any other post anyone writes to you, and you begin to see something ELSE within your own self about what you are reading, follow it if it shows God to be even more merciful and kind than what you presently believe or profess. You can not possibly believe anything that is nicer than God really is.

Having said that I will try to reply to your conversation in shorter posts but more of them, and you can deal with them that way easier and over a bit more time, perhaps. Of course, you may also come to the place where you do not want to bother replying any more, and that is up to you and will be accepted by me.

I said something to the effect that JESUS never told anyone that they had to believe He was going to or did die for them when He was already present and alive in Israel. I said, he told them to go and sin no more BEFORE He was crucified. And, I said, Jesus must have thought it was possible because He told people to do it THEN, before His death on the cross.

Keny said.. Jesus never told anyone that they were "saved" by saying they believed he died for them, or that
they believed in him, or that they were sorry, or any such thing.

[Post #2] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2 (javascript:ol('http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16531&postcount=2');))
---End Quote---

You replied.
This is incorrect. In fact, you are teaching the diametic opposite of what Biblical Scripture
teaches.

Here is one place. There are more.

Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

WE see that Jesus did not enforce the Law of Moses in regard to adultery, even BEFORE He died on the cross. He NEGATED the power of that law by having the "accusers" remove themselves by removing the "attitude" of accusation in themselves. So, forgiveness, as we know, negates the power of the "curse" of scripture.

Jesus did not "negate" any commandment that is OF GOD. He did what God does. As I said in Romans 5 we are told that where there is no law {of moses} sin is NOT IMPUTED. {accused}. IT does not mean sin is not done, it is just not imputed, but the sin is a fact of existence regardless.

It is SIN that causes death, not God. That is what the law is SUPPOSED to help us understand, but man lost that truth and began to "include" God as being of the works of the curse too.

Jesus negates this belief, IF we believe and see HIM.

Also, I believe you may remember that the rich young ruler was told by Jesus, before Jesus was crucified, that if he, the rich young man, would ENTER INTO LIFE, keep the commandments. When asked which ones, Jesus said love God and love your neighbour and did not add any more.

Thus, we can see it was and is possible to ENTER into life before Jesus was crucified in Israel, because Jesus said so. He also said it was done by "keeping the spirit of the ten commandments", which is LOVE.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Again we have Jesus saying that the LIFE is the light, but I also want it understood that by using the word life, I mean LIFE as GOD LIVES IT. That is what teaches us about LIFE. ANything less than Godliness teaches us about "death" or evil and darkness. But we do have to be alive to be able to learn anything at all.

God, and Jesus, do not change. We were not accused of sin by God and Christ BEFORE Jesus died on the cross, do you understand that. But as Jesus died on the cross, and forgave us, HE WITNESSES THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER that was and is IN HIM. See, he is showing us that God never ever accused anyone, it is man who beleives in God but is influenced by some of the nature of natural man, that believes and takes the scriptures as if they were ACCUSATIONS from God.

It is only preachers and so on that teach, incorrectly, that God was only forgiving of sins AFTER the crucifiction of Jesus in Israel. That is man's idea because of his desire to support what he thinks is God doing evil to men in the Old Testament. In other words, man STILL supports his own understanding of scripture based on his own natural spirit, rather than the testimony of Jesus that God who never changes forgives them.

Scripture can show us God, who never changes even his attitudes, NEVER imputed SIN.
The knowledge of what our problem is, is given to us FOR OUR BENEFIT so we can join with God and do something about being made MATURE, which is what God desires. It is accusation and guilt and so on in man that causes man to think God accuses.

I said before to you, I think. {I have written a few other posts to Core}, that Jesus said, do not think I will accuse you to the father, there is ONE that accuse you, even MOSES. {the letter of the law in the hands of man}.

You see, it is very hard for man to believe that God is different than he, man, is, when dealing with resistance. Man's judgments that man carries out, even capital punishment through the words of Moses, have replaced the truth of God's methods for a long long time now. That judgment of natural man is the ABOMINATION that would make everything desolate if God were really like man's nature in judgments. Man has put his own judgment and ideas of "righteousness" into practice and teachings as if they were "God's" workings too. Men kill in the name of God all the time.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
I would like to share that if a person were to keep the ten commandments all the time, they would HAVE to disobey the law of Moses in some parts, for certain.
If one were to keep the law of Moses entirely, they would HAVE to break the ten commandments very often.

This is something that man does not understand very well, if at all. Those who say they see a double minded or double natured "god" in the Old Tetament are seeing this fact I mention above, but can not put it into their understanding correctly. God does not afflict man and does not kill man. But man believes God does. He writes that way too.

If one obeys Jesus Christ, they will never do any works of the curse of the Law of Moses. Jesus said, we are to forgive ALL men their trespasses against us. Also, turn the other cheek, and other like commandments.

Jesus said, if we hear him and do not really "hear" him and keep HIS words, we are building our house on the sand and it WILL fall.

I will end this post here. Thank you again, and God bless,
keny

[keny]

Hello Lucky, {4}

You had replied to some of my post with the following scripture.

22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The KJV has it a little different, and is more able to be understood better. The word in KJV is remission, without the shedding of blood there is no "remission", which means, SEPARATION of putting APART. In other words, it should be read as saying, without the shedding of blood there is no separation or cessation from or of sin. Before making a hasty judgment about this, please just read a few more sentences below.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
856 - Greek {remission in KJV}
856 aphedron af-ed-rone'
from a compound of 575 and the base of 1476; a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy:--draught.

There is TWO ways to have remission or separation from Sin, actual cessation of sin.

One is to die physically. The other is to "die" to the POWER of sin in our lives, by the resurrection of the LIFE that is the light of the world... Jesus Christ's LIFE. As I said before, it is HIS LIFE that saves us from {our} wrath.

You had said that Hebrews above was evidence that God did not forgive sins that are not atoned for. You have said, Lucky, that I am sort of "implying things" that are not evident in the scriptures. I think you should look at what you said in regard to God not forgiving unatoned sins, and then think about if you are "seeing" things or reading things into scripture that is not there.

you said..And? God the Father does not forgive sins which remain unatoned for (Hebrews 9:22

Here is the scripture you cite, again, in your own bible's words.

22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

I read it says, the LAW requires, it does not say GOD does not forgive without atonement. You know that God forgave or did not impute sin to many things in scripture. For instance, Abraham committed what we call adultery today, with His hand maid. God said nothing about it to Abraham in regard to "sin". You see, Abraham did not know or consider it sin anyway.

Please note the following, and note to WHOM it is SIN. It is sin to him that knows what GOOD is, and DOES EVIL. Now, GOd does not do evil, and God certainly knows what sin is. It is anything God does not do.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Thank you again, and God bless, keny

[CTZonEdit]

So a "Christian" doesn't even need to believe anything according to you, because in the end we are all saved by God anyway?

What a pointless belief system.

What about those that hate God?
Is that fair to deny them their own freewill by forcing them to live an eternity with someone they despise? How is that loving and kind of God to deny someone their own freewill choices?

Are you claiming the even Satan the father of all lies is going to be saved by the grace and goodness of God?

[keny]

Hello Lucky.

You gave this scripture for evidence of what you said which I will quote below the verse.
This is a quote taken from your own version, NIV. {do you know how the NIV came about?}

Romans 5:10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

You said, in regard to this verse... You are inserting doctrinal presuppositions into Romans 5:10
(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:10;&version=31 (javascript:ol('http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 5:10;&version=31'););). Specifically, you are
presupposing that Paul uses the term "we" as a reference to all of mankind, as opposed to a select group.

A "select" group is poor language, do you not think. We are to love OUR neighbour.

I would like you to think of the following that Paul said, about those who were unaware even, of the existence of God as Paul knew God.

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

God bless, keny

[keny]

So a "Christian" doesn't even need to believe anything according to you, because in the end we are all saved by God anyway?

What a pointless belief system.

What about those that hate God?
Is that fair to deny them their own freewill by forcing them to live an eternity with someone they despise? How is that loving and kind of God to deny someone their own freewill choices? Keny says. ALL must be CHANGED. They will not hate God my friend, it is only the things in us that hate God that will be "gone". I mean, Christians have hate, anger, greed, and so on at times, and operate from those things. Those THINGS in us hate GOD. They are of "death" by sin.. sin meaning, not like God. Carnal natured and minded they are}

Are you claiming the even Satan the father of all lies is going to be saved by the grace and goodness of God?

hello Core. I realize that to you at this time, it is a very volatile subject. But please, I have not said any such thing as not believing anything. You are assuming that salvation for all is a free ride, in the first place. I have not said that, and that is a common type of idea for those who think that just saying "I believe in Jesus", means one does believe in Jesus. It does not, and even jesus said so.

I have given the scriptures I will talk about, before, so will not repeat them here unless you want me to do so later.

John 14:26 tells us that he that does not keep MY words {Jesus's} loves me NOT.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

I think you can see that I do not think one does not have to believe anything "to be saved". Of course, one needs to believe in Jesus BEFORE they can begin receiving their salvation by having Jesus' life established IN THEM as their own life. But be aware, it is ALWAYS disciples {believers} who betray Jesus.

What do I mean. Well, if a Muslim does something evil, Jesus does not get blamed by those who see the Muslim do the evil. But when a Christian who says they are a christian does some evil thing, Christ takes the blows in the minds of those who are NOT Christian professing. We know it is not Christ that does the evil, but those who do not know him thinks he is a weak "lord" and so on.

EVERY KNEE shall bow and confess that Jesus is lord. I understand that, but probably differently than you do at this time. All must come to Christ, yes, but that is different than thinking that God is blaming those who do not know Christ for "their errors". It does not mean God is pretending they do not exist either. Just as we as maturing Christians have to realize that God does not "pretend" we are really holy yet, either.

It is obvious God does not "pretend" we are without wrongdoing, because scripture says that if we are not corrected by GOD our Father, then we are bastards {spiritually speaking}.

And, I am saying that all must believe that what Jesus teaches IS WHO GOD IS, before they can begin to be corrected by GOD from within them.

Paul said, we all must be CHANGED. This change is not a free lunch, but is a participatory process. We must participate, and coming to the loving knowledge of Jesus Christ is a requirement for our participation.

One of the main reasons why is that Jesus Christ is who we are to model ourselves upon, because Jesus Christ is who we are supposed to BE when the fullness of times is accomplished for us.

When Heb. 6:6 says that some can crucify the Son of God afresh or again, it is akin to Moses striking the rock the second time. It is not the whole person that can not "go into life", it is that which "strikes" or betrays Jesus that is IN US as believers, that has to go.

When we disobey Christ, we are begining to SLAY the man or person WE CAN BE.

I will answer your "satan" question in the next post, right away}
God bless, keny

[CoreIssue]

hello Core.

keny, enough of the false accusations here.

CTZonEdit and CoreIssue are two completely different persons. Both Admin but not one person with two memberships.

[keny]

So a "Christian" doesn't even need to believe anything according to you, because in the end we are all saved by God anyway?


Are you claiming the even Satan the father of all lies is going to be saved by the grace and goodness of God?

Hello Core. Thanks for the reply, and I do understand that this is a serious question for and from you, and I appreciate that. Just as I understand that when people who love God and believe in some measure about Christ, think salvation is accomplished just by saying a few words, think "salvation for all" is that simple for those who do not "say" they believe yet. They think they are saved without becoming matured by God, and thus automatically and naturally assume that the ones who are still "sinning" and thus "enjoying life somehow", will continue to be able to do whatever they want, and then be free to also be "in heaven".

But no one is in heaven at any time, ever, but God. If anyone was ever in "heaven" that was less than Godly, then SIN would be an eternal state of existence in heaven. ANYTHING less than being God and Godly is... sin, by bible definition. To be less than the glory that God is, will put one in the condition of sin, automatically and by birth.

As to the Satan scripture. No, Satan is not saved. Part of the problem with understanding what I mean, is because of how you presently see or understand what or who "satan" is. I believe because of your diligent bible word studies you have done, that you know the meaning of Satan in Hebrew is really Adversary.

Yes, some dictionaries EMBELLISH this with the dictionary writer's own assumptions of what "satan" is, but that does not mean they are correct or should do so at all.

Satan means, simply, and adversary. Everything that we have in us that does not want to do what Jesus asks for us to do, is an adversary to God. For instance, love is vilified and thought to be weak, sissy, and ineffective by hate or the feelings of vengeance, or self righteousness, or man's idea of "justice", and so on. If love is in full blown power by being FELT by one, hate can not exist at the same time with the Love in a person.

Hate, anger, greed, envy, selfish jealousy, bitterness, prejudice, nationalism, chauvinism, and all such things and emotions that are common to mankind in the flesh, are ADVERSARIES to Christ and God. They will not be "saved" because in our Salvation process of becoming mature in God in the world in the flesh and blood body, like Jesus was, will put the power of these things under OUR FEET through God.
Our "feet" will be *the continuous walk of Jesus Christ in our lives* while still needing to have physical sustenance for our bodily needs.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Butr I also want us to understand that that which is called the "Serpent" will still be in existence but only in the creation. When all things are in order, it is a serpent but is not able to be a "deception" we have, thus no "devil" to us.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

In the new heaven and earth condition, the serpent is still present, and is still said to eat DUST.

{in the new earth} Isa 65:25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

In the garden, after all, that which is called the serpent was there all the time, but it got OUT OF ORDER through "man", which is quite natural actually.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Please notice in the above scripture from Genesis, it says that the serpent was *OF* the field. Not "of" heaven.

It also says that the serpent was most subtil. It does not say it was the most beautiful or the best singer, or any such thing at all. ALl of which man has attributed to Satan, cum serpent.

Every creation that is not completely finished has to deal with a serpent condition until fully CHANGED. The change entails coming to spiritual maturity within the flesh and blood body first. After all, spiritual knowledge about things that are not "of God's SPirit" and are thus NOT in heaven, have to be learned and overcome in places where the resistance exists. It can not be overcome "in heaven" because there is no Satan there.

Thank you again, and God bless.
keny

[keny]

keny, enough of the false accusations here.

CTZonEdit and CoreIssue are two completely different persons. Both Admin but not one person with two memberships.


Hello ADM. Sorry, I apologize for any problem I may have caused.

Also, please understand that there was no "accusation" attitude in what I addressed. I am completely open and I speak that way too, without accusing. But I do talk about anything, absolutely anything, if I feel it can be used for the purpose of helpful explanation or edification about a subject or about what I share means.

I beleive I did use the name Core, in my replies, even if it was not core saying so, and that may help. But again, I am sorry I caused a problem and perhaps injury.

Thank you, keny

[CTZonEdit]

Keny says. ALL must be CHANGED. They will not hate God my friend, it is only the things in us that hate God that will be "gone". I mean, Christians have hate, anger, greed, and so on at times, and operate from those things. Those THINGS in us hate GOD. They are of "death" by sin.. sin meaning, not like God. Carnal natured and minded they are}



So basically we are all robots to be controlled ultimately by God regardless of what we choose to believe or not?

And how is this not the most evil thing that one could imagine? The fact that our entire existance is some pointless "game" that God is playing because in essence we have no say so in our own choices, lives, existance.

Why in the world is God going thru this futile experiment if we are all going to be saved anyway? Why doesnt he just create us in heaven if that is His "ultimate will".

To have us live here in a fallen sinful world for no reason whatsoever is cruel and unjust if in the end we are just going to be saved regardless of what we do or do not do. We are just pawns to God.

Your whole idea of Christianity is a farce.

[keny]

Hello Again, Lucky.

How are you doing today?

You wrote to me about what I said in Romans 5.
You are engaging in non-sequitur reasoning. The fact that sin reigned over all men (Romans 5:12,
14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12,%2014;&version=31 (javascript:ol('http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 5:12, 14;&version=31'););)) does not
automatically mean that grace will reign over all men.

Well, Lucky, I "could" say, it does not mean that automatically grace will NOT reign over all men. But that is a very poor response on my part, if I left it there. I realize that you are sincerely protecing and advancing and supporting a position of belief you presently hold dear. Please know I understand that and I do not make light of that position.

We are talking about God here, and HIS grace. It is not about what men have thought about themselves, is it? Some have sincerely given themselves grace, but are not so free to see it include anyone who does not fit the qualifications they has men have put on receiving the grace.

Receiving the grace into our knowledge does depend upon faith in Christ or the spirit of God in us. But. that does not mean it is not EXTENDED to all men. The long suffering of God is accounted to salvation.

Do not mix up the difference with having believed in God and the "limiting" of God's grace.

For instance, was grace extended to you long before you were born, and long before you even knew about it? I think you would agree with me in saying YES.

How many were recipients of Jesus' words, Father forgive them, they know not what they do?, when HE DIED.

Make no mistake about it, please, we MUST know that Jesus died. But our understanding of how and why also becomes far more all encompassing than we first think.

When the knowledge, truth, and experience of Christ in us and the ability to attribute any good thing in us, to God as Christ, then Christ and all the true knowledge of God is DEAD TO US, no matter that God never dies except in the flesh of those who do not believe.

In essence, when Jesus died, it meant that the truth and knowledge of the truth about God and all else, DIED out of the world because it was no where in any flesh any more. We have to understand the death this way TOO. It means a lot of things about our present condition.

I "could" say, that in a one day old human baby the knowledge and ability of how to walk is "dead" or does not actively exist in the baby. Get what I mean. But that knowledge and ability will be "raised up" in the baby so he can DO THE WALK.

Now, does Jesus' words, Father forgive them, they know not what they do, mean all who do not know what they are doing are forgiven, or not.? Literalize.

IF they are forgiven, then sin is NOT imputed, is that correct?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Please do not misunderstand, the gift is upon and toward all, but... the gift is only active upon ALL who recieve it and walk in it. Simply put, those who are recipients of the gift in knowledge will reign in life. It does not mean that the things that refuse christ will ever reign "in life". But, it does not mean the people who do not know Christ or are mistaken about many things in Christ at this time, will not be "saved". Salvation included first coming to know Christ and THEN walking on with Christ in one until they become ONE PERSON.

Jesus Chirst is always one person, and there is only ONE resurrection, no matter how many vessels are resurrected, God only raises Jesus Christ every time in anyone HE raises and establishes according to the spirit of HOLINESS.

Jesus Christ is who we are to be, He is the MAN we all must pass through as who we are before we can ever go on to be with the Father. Take heart, because God will not lose ONE, but it does not mean when we believe we can then just do what we like that is evil and think we are scott free. To whom much is given, much is asked\required. That is what maturity is and does.

It is only those who RECEIVE Jesus that will REIGN with him in life, but eventually all must recieve him to live. The old Man will have to perish IN every one of us.

Salvation is a lifestyle, not a few spoken words. That is why I gave the scriptures I did before, about crucifying Christ {the son of God we can be} to OURSELVES again or afresh.

The things in us that crucify Jesus Christ, the man we can be in God, are to be starved to death, spiritually speaking.

Thank you, in Christ, keny

[keny]

So basically we are all robots to be controlled ultimately by God regardless of what we choose to believe or not?

And how is this not the most evil thing that one could imagine? The fact that our entire existance is some pointless "game" that God is playing because in essence we have no say so in our own choices, lives, existance.

Why in the world is God going thru this futile experiment if we are all going to be saved anyway? Why doesnt he just create us in heaven if that is His "ultimate will".

To have us live here in a fallen sinful world for no reason whatsoever is cruel and unjust if in the end we are just going to be saved regardless of what we do or do not do. We are just pawns to God.

Your whole idea of Christianity is a farce.

hello CTZ. I do appreciate your reply and the fact that you tell me how you feel about some of the things I have been saying. That is good and more productive than just letting it slide. Thank you.

I think that this idea of being robots has to be explored more deeply, because men think somehow or other they are already free. The scripture, as you know, tells us that whom the Son sets free, is free indeed. That freedom includes having ETERNAL LIFE.

For instance, men "free" to not desire to die, but they have no power to actually make that happen for themselves. So, are we really free. Romans 6 tells us that we are a servant to whom we serve, whether of sin to death, or of righteousness to life. What man does not think about, I find, at least not very clearly, is that the bible tells us plainly we are SUBJECT to many things without willing to be subject to them. Man is NOT FREE and is not free willed either. Yes, man can make choices, but the only one that has a free WILL is God. A "will" that can not be exercised by the one having a will or wish about something, is simply a dream.

As to being alive. Did you or any of us CHOOSE to be born in the world. Did we choose who our parents would be, and where we would be born, and to what nationality or what have we? No, we did not. We are all here in the flesh because of something someone who was alive and existed in the world did, before we were alive and in the world.

As to why did God... Well, Paul kind of hints at that very same type of question in Romans 11. Who are we that "repliest" against God. But I just say that for a reminder, Paul addressed that question a bit, but not like we are able to do today.

A well rounded son must be fully and correctly knowledgeable about BOTH good and evil. There is NO evil in God's spirit, so we have to be in "another" condition to "experience" evil or ungodliness. We experience this by what happens to us and upon our bodies in life in the world, and we experience the "tastes" of death by and in our emotions and desires that are "outside" of God. They are the real "outer darkness" things that scripture talks about.

But that is not the only reason we MUST go through this exercise. EVERY son is "scourged" by the father, for our benefit to have the blessings of Jesus Christ.

Through his {and now our} sufferings, He {and now us} BECAME perfect {mature}. I want to stress the word, BECAME. Jesus Himself said that after three days he would be PERFECTED. In other words, He would have the knowledge of evil as God wants every son to have it. God wants every son to know what evil is and NOT DO IT, thus showing we understand that evil is evil and is not "good to eat" or use for our lifestyle if we are to be the Son of God.

But also, the scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the saviour of THE BODY. The purpose of the creation is to make a continuing body {increase of God's kingdom} for God as His son to inhabit in eternity. The life and nature of God are not ever created, BUT the body that God lives in, making the Body His son, IS CREATED. The true creation God is concerned with mainly, is MAN becoming the body of Jesus Christ by the millions and billions over the whole existence of the creation.

As the believer becomes mature in christ, and just like Jesus Christ in the flesh, that believer is then the nature and mind of christ, {which is who Jesus is}, and they will become the SAVIOUR OF THEIR OWN BODY. This is the ultimate and intended way of God for all who are ever to be born thereafter.

WE, or mankind on this single one planet at this time, is the beginning of the creation of God. Who is that?

A human baby who is born. Is he free, even if the parents do not "rule" in him or over him? How about if they abandon him? Is the baby free then? I know our answer is, NO.

Salvation is not what man has taught it to be, and it requires a change of "veiw point" to see more clearly, otherwise we do think it is scott free for others because of how we imagine our OWN salvation to be. Put aside what you think salvation and so on is, and just try to see what I am saying, do not try to fit what I am saying into what you presently believe is the "blueprint". I am not saying discard what you believe. Just read what I say, if you do, without trying to fit it anywhere. you can still keep your understanding, just don't prejudge what is said, yet, by what you think the truth is. I understand that you are very sincere and that what I am saying may feel discouraging, but it is only your present belief that is feeling discouraged. Examine, try, FEEL.
I hope this helps. God bless, keny