onelove/Shepherds Chapel on the Rapture

[onelove]

I have a question,but let me state my position,which is I don't believe in a rapture period,be it pre,mid or post,however we will gather back to Christ,but we are not going anywhere.

Now my question is this,if as many teach the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth,how will those who are left,be saved

[onelove]

how can there be a rapture before the trib,when Christ clealy says that He will not return until after the tribulation of those days Matt 24

[CoreIssue]

I have a question,but let me state my position,which is I don't believe in a rapture period,be it pre,mid or post,however we will gather back to Christ,but we are not going anywhere.

Now my question is this,if as many teach the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the earth,how will those who are left,be saved
OK, so you are an Amillennialist or an Idealist. Sounds like an Amil, since you said gather back on this earth.

Those in the Trib and Millennial Kingdom will be saved in the same way people were before the Church.

Let's look at the OT.

Gentile saints, who knew nothing of Moses or such, still had the Law of Conscience in them. They knew God was there and they needed him. Vague, yes, but they knew.

No one before the Church was born-again. That requires the blood of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No blood meant no indwelling, which meant no born-again.

At the Resurrection, the Holy Spirit raised Christ and he led the OT saints from Paradise. When he ascended to the Father he offered his body in payment and they were then washed clean, born-again.

At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came in a new way. Now he baptised saints still in the earthly flesh. They were born-again.

Why? Because the physical Temple ceased to be God's Temple. Now the body of saints became the Temple of God. But God cannot live in an unclean Temple. So he had to cleanse our spirits to be able to make them his Temple. And to cleanse means our spirits became sin free.

At the Rapture the Church is gone and Israel is restored as covenant people. Which means the Temple will moved from the spirits of saints back to the physical Temple, which this time will hold Christ as High Priest.

Therefore, the need for saints to be born-again will be gone.

In restoring Israel there is a return to the OT times, but in an new and improved way. Hebrews and the OT call this the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah.

Law returns, no one in the flesh is born-again. Being born-again returns to a thing to be gained future, after death.

Too many people think that the removal of the Restrainer creates a situation that never existed before. That is false.

The OT way comes back, in an improved format.

So, the short of it is people will be saved as they always have been. By repentence.

It has always been by repentence through faith by grace. Being born-again is not being saved. Born-again is what happens to those who are already saved.

Saved is a promise to be born-again. It is a promise not to go to Hell or be judged.

Saints in the OT, still fully in their sins, were called righteous and just. Not because they were, in fact, righteous and just, but because God declared them righteous and just in his eyes. The reality was future, but for God it was then.

Hope that helps. Hard to explain clearly. :D

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I have heard ministers teach that no one could be saved during the Tribulation, but scripture just doesn't support that.

All through the judgments of Revelation, scripture says that the people on earth refuse to repent. If they weren't given the chance to repent to begin with, they wouldn't be able to reject it.


Revelation 9:20 And the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

Revelation 9:21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues; and they did not repent, so as to give Him glory.

Revelation 16:11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.


The above verses tell us they were given the chance to repent.

Also, consult these verses:

Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?"

14 And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


As you can see, these are saints who have come out of the great tribulation upon the earth. If they were saved before the rapture, they wouldn't have been there to begin with...they would have been taken with the church. Therefore, this proves that they were saved (through repentance) after the rapture.

how can there be a rapture before the trib,when Christ clealy says that He will not return until after the tribulation of those days Matt 24

The rapture and the second coming are two different events.

[onelove]

(Matthew 13:24-30 KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: http://www.praize.com/members/images/forums/emoticons/25.gif But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. http://www.praize.com/members/images/forums/emoticons/26.gif But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. http://www.praize.com/members/images/forums/emoticons/27.gif So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? http://www.praize.com/members/images/forums/emoticons/28.gif He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? http://www.praize.com/members/images/forums/emoticons/29.gif But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. http://www.praize.com/members/images/forums/emoticons/30.gif Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."
"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43 KJV)



If the harvest is the end of the world, which the bible says it is and the tares and the wheat are to grow together until that harvest,when is the rapture?

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

Did you get that? You are going to see Jesus come back to earth, at the second advent, coming in like manner as these men and women have seen Jesus ascend up into heaven. Jesus is going to return exactly as He had left.

Jesus left from the Mount of Olives, and He ascended up into the clouds, and He is going to come back in the same manner.

Again,where is the rapture?

Why are Christians so afraid of the tribulation?
Millions of Christians throughout history have been through tribulations,what makes you(rapturist)so special that you should escape,is this not why we are told to have on the whole armour?

As a Christian you should be ready to take a stand,and fight until the end,and not be wishing to run away when the going gets tough.

We are also told that we will be delivered up to death which is satan,and for us to not think before hand that which we shall speak because it will not be us speaking but the Holy Spirit speaking through us,now how can the Holy Spirit speak through us if He will not be here?(side note)this is also the time when tongues will be spoken again,that which some claim to be tongues now,is but babble.

God is able to protect His own,without taking them off the earth,example,when the plagues consumed Egypt,was God's people raptured/No they were not.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

[onelove]

My next question

Most rapturist teach that Christ could return at any moment,so my question is this,at what point in time after His death could He return,I ask this because Christ said certain things would happen before His return

examples

Peter's growing old and becoming a martyr
The Gospel being preached to the Samaritans and Gentiles
The 'Apostasy' in the last days
The revelation of the Man of Sin
Scoffers in the last days

Now how could the rapture happen at any moment if these things had to happen first,and this is just a few

[onelove]

Next question

Is there any Scripture or verses or passages in Scripture that place the return of Christ before either the appearing of the Antichrist, the tribulation period or the Great Tribulation?

[CoreIssue]

First of all, having seen your references elsewhere, your first mistake is thinking the Church is Israel under a new covenant.

Israel did not become Europe, Britain, the US or any of that kind of thinking. Those are Gentile nations. Israel and Church are two completely separate groups.

As the Bible says, the Body of Christ is composed of the Church and Israel. Not Israel in two forms.

Second, the Harvest of the Trib in Matthew is addressed to Israel, not the Church. It is not talking about Rapture, but those of Israel that will enter the Trib. Of which about only 1/3 will.

The Pre-Trib Rapture removes the Church. Church Age ends and the 70th Week of Daniel begins. As well as the New Covenant to the Houses of Israel and Judah, which will again be reunited into one nation.

So, your doctrine of the New Covenant being in effect now is wrong.

Only Israel is mentioned in the Trib as regards covenant status. Again the 12 Tribes dominate. Again Israel, the Woman stands forth. And so on.

We see in the OT prophecies that Israel will be called out of the Gentile nations at the Second Coming. Not Raptured, but called out and gathered to Christ on Mount Zion, where he and and the 144,000 First Fruits of MK Israel are waiting.

So, do you get those points? You are in error in your view of Israel and the Church.

No. We are not the deceived ones as Murray and some others would teach. They are.

As for the doctrine of Imminent Return, that is not an argument against me. I never embraced it.

The Bible says that certain things must occur before Christ could return.

But, at the same time, as regards now, all those demands have been met, so as of now he can return at any time.

By the way. A failure our your position is that only the Father knows when the Rapture will occur. Which is false if at the Second Coming.

We have an exacting time schedule set out in Revelation and the 70th Week of Daniel. From the opening to Mid, 1,260 days. From Mid, where there are very exacting events laid out, to the Second Coming, another 1,260 days.

So, once the Trib begins, only the Father knows becomes a false statement.

Next question

Is there any Scripture or verses or passages in Scripture that place the return of Christ before either the appearing of the Antichrist, the tribulation period or the Great Tribulation?

As in returning to Mount Zion, no. That is Second Coming.

As in the Rapture, most assuredly.

Revelation 3:10
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The Hour of Trial is the Trib.

Kept from, both in the English and Greek, tereo ek, means never allowed in. Physically removed.

So, where is the Trial? On the whole earth. Who is tried? The whole world.

Church cannot be here and not be in the Trial. It does not say protected from or protected through. It says not there.

Revelation 4
4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

These are the 24 Elders of OT Israel. Dressed in priestly garb, resurrected, glorified and rewarded.

And this is before the First Seal, which is in chapter 6.

No one is rewarded until the First Resurrection begins. And no one is rewarded until Christ comes for them.

Revelation 22
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

The Restrainer cannot be removed without removing the Church. He lives and works through us.

But he must be removed for the AC to appear.

2 Thes 2
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The Trib saints, remember there are zero Church mentions in the Trib, are handed over to the AC.

Daniel 7
25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=34&chapter=7&verse=25&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-21959a)]

The Holy Spirit in a saint would never be handed over to Satan.

And God does not test his Church. What is the point?

The Trib is to force deciding for Christ or the AC.

And no, contrary to what I have seen written on the site you referenced, the AC religion is not Christianity. It is a return to Pagan Romanism where the Emporer is a godking.

Hope that helps.

[onelove]

OK,so who or what is the church?

[CoreIssue]

OK,so who or what is the church?
The Church is the interim covenant people between the close of the 69th Week to Israel, at the cross, and 70th Week return, at the Rapture/1st Seal/appearance of the Two Witnesses.

Church is composed of both Jews, which includes Israel and Judah, and Gentiles.

Israel was a covenant physical nation descended from Abraham via Jacob.

Church is a spiritual covenant nation also descended from Abraham.

Paul recognizes and states the Church is both Jews and Gentiles, without distinction. But also says Israel is a special people distinct from Gentiles.

In Hebrews, the New Covenant is future, not present tense. It is only to the Houses of Israel and Judah, not Gentiles.

The Church covenant is based on the New Covenant but is not the New Covenant.

The idea anglo caucasians is Israel, does not fly historically or genetically. Just flat not true.

It also is part of a theology that is not spiritually kind to non Angoi peoples, which Christ and the NT rejects as true.

[onelove]

So why did'nt Jesus teach a rapture,would not Matt 24 had been the best place to teach it,after all the question was asked when and what shall be the sign of your return

Also, in order for there to be a rapture would not Christ have to return twice,as for the other question that I asked,if we are delivered up to satan,and the Holy Spirit speaks through us,how is this possible if you say He will not be here?

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

If the he in this verse is the Holy Spirit,why is it not capitalized?

[onelove]

Im posting this from this site because it is pretty much how I see the teaching of the rapture,I believe it to be a false teaching,that will cause many to be deceived by satan when he comes as the anti christ pretending to be Christ.

Most people believe that the anti christ will be a man influenced by satan I say he is non other than satan himself live and in person who will come to earth after he is kicked out of Heaven by Michael.

satan comes to earth at the 6th trump Christ returns at the 7th no rapture in between or before.

With that said here is the post

Why I Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
By Steve Highlander

Part 1


"But in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared unto his servants the prophets." Rev. 10:7
What does the Bible say will happen in the last days?
This is a question I am hearing with increasing frequency these days. While many theories exist concerning the last days, we must remember that we are not dealing with philosophy, or even science. God's word is truth and there is no room for theories. One bright spot in the "end time" confusion is God's own promise to bring revelation knowledge as the final days approach. In Daniel 12:9-10 the Word of the Lord came to the prophet saying, "...go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.... none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Other verses in Daniel and several passages in Revelation indicates an outpouring of knowledge concerning the last days. This should give us great hope, for God said in Ephesians 4 that we should all come in the unity of the faith.
Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would be our teacher, and guide us into ALL truth. He also said that we could know the truth and the truth would set us FREE. Freedom to experience God to the fullest will not come while we are content to believe less than the whole truth. Don't allow yourself to get bogged down in the tangled mess of theories. Turn to the Lord with all of your heart and seek God for His vision of the last days. He doesn't have to guess about things.
Some might say if you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture then you don't believe in a literal second coming of Jesus. This isn't true. Most certainly there will be a literal, bodily return of Jesus Christ, according to Acts chapter 1. Jesus left in a bodily manifestation and the scriptures declare He will return in the same way. That has never, nor will ever be the question. The question of His second coming is simply one of timing... will it be before or after the period known as the great tribulation.
I have written this booklet for two groups of people: 1) Those who have been taught the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine and desire to understand why some people don't believe in it, and 2) Those people who do not believe the a pre-trib rapture, but have never understood just why it didn't seem to fit.
This booklet is one-half of the answer that I give to the above-mentioned question. It is designed to provide a simple, scriptural answer to those people who have questions about what I believe concerning the second coming of Jesus Christ. Usually the people who have the questions don't have the time for immediate answers, since we all understand that the subject is a vast one. This way, a more thorough home study may be done at an individual pace. I do not mean for this to be a theological discourse on end times, but as a title suggests, the reasons why I personally cannot accept a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. After several years of prayer and study, I have come to the conclusion that we will never realize God's true plan if we cling to the false hope of a pre-trib rapture.
Having come from a fundamental, independent Baptist background, I was taught the dispensational plan of theology, which has, as a major doctrine, the pre-trib rapture of the Church. After several years of study, I found myself asking some simple, yet painfully necessary questions regarding the rapture. I was confronted with the fact that I could not find one clear scriptural reference to a PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE of the Church. I offer here the results of my studies for you to draw your own conclusions.
MANY ARE UNPREPARED FOR THE LAST DAYS!
I believe that the pre-trib rapture theory is hurting the Church in two ways:
1. Jesus said, "you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Believing something that is not true will never bring the church into the "liberty of the sons of God." While many people who believe the pre-trib rapture theory are truly serving the Lord today, I believe the time is rapidly approaching when it will be necessary to come to a fuller understanding of God's end-time plan. If we want to be a part of what God is doing in the earth today, we will need to understand and prepare for it.
2. The period know as the "great tribulation" will be a time when God's people will have to come to a place of absolute rest in God's provision. While we will not experience God's wrath, we will experience persecution from the world, which will blame us for all of its problems. Just as every generation of Christians have suffered persecution during the times of great outpouring of God's Spirit, so will the end-time Church.
While the pre-trib theory gives a false sense of hope that is easy to believe in and hold to, it leaves us completely unprepared for coming events. NOW is the time to be building our selves up on our most holy faith. NOW is the time to "get rid of every weight and the sin that so easily besets us." NOW is the time to move into a place of obedience to God's Spirit. God wants a Spirit-filled, Spirit-led body of believers, worldwide to display His power and glory to a sin-bound world. The rapture doctrine certainly doesn't prepare us for that ministry. In fact, in many cases it has produced self-satisfied Christians who are just sitting around waiting for Jesus to come back before things get too bad.
A FALSE END TO A FALSE START
I have had people ask me, "What is dispensational theology anyway?" This plan of theology basically divides time up into seven (or more) dispensations or time frames. Proponents teach that God dealt with, or will deal with, man in different ways during those dispensations. While God does deal with man somewhat differently at various stages of history, the error of dispensationalism appears when they try to chop up the scriptures and apply them to different time frames, thus invalidating them for others. Any scripture that doesn't seem to fit a particular doctrinal view is easily moved to another dispensation, thus removing any difficulty presented by conflicting doctrines. This makes a convenient dumping ground for confusing or contradicting scriptures. When God began dealing with me about HIS plan for the end times it blew so many holes in my theology that I had to take a serious second look at what I had been taught.
The greatest error of dispensational teaching is that Israel, and not the Church, is the fulfillment of God's plan on earth. According to them, the Church that Jesus bled and died for is basically an after-thought in God's plan--a stepchild for God to play with while He was waiting 2000 years to deal with Israel again. According to this theology, God's dealing with the Jews will take place during the last seven years know as the great tribulation. Since God will be dealing with the Jews, there will be no need for the Church to be around. This is where the pre-tribulation rapture comes in. They expect Jesus to come back before the tribulation and remove the Church, thus getting it out of the way during the tribulation.
It has been taught by leading proponents of this doctrine that had the Jews accepted Jesus as their Messiah He would have immediately established His kingdom and there would have been no need for the Church. What a gross misunderstanding of scripture.
Ephesians 3:9-11 plainly tells us that the Church was in the eternal purpose of God from the beginning of the world. God has declared that His manifold wisdom should be declared to principalities and powers (angelic and demonic) through the Church.
How much plainer could God get when He told us that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Old Testament and the mediator or the New Testament. The book of Hebrews tells us that God fulfilled the old covenant and gave them a better covenant based on better promises (Heb. 8:1-13.) The law, with all of its sacrifices and ceremonies was only a shadow of that which was to come. The ministry of Jesus Christ is the reality of the Old Testament types and shadows.
You might be saying, "What does all this have to do with the rapture of the church?" Everything! Because the rapture of the Church is built upon the idea that God is not going to continue dealing with the Church on the basis of grace, but go back to dealing with Israel where he left off 2000 years ago. In other words, God is going back to the law to finish this thing up. This is one reason why they claim that the Jews will rebuild the temple on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. If you have a temple you will have Old Testament temple worship, complete with animal sacrifices. Since the church (and the corresponding grace) isn’t needed, it will be raptured, or so the theory goes.
Do you really think God will allow the Jews to sacrifice another animal now that Jesus has come? When Jesus died He tore the veil in the temple from top to bottom and 40 years later, in AD 70, the temple was completely destroyed by Titus in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy that "not one stone shall be left upon another." God gave the Jewish nation a 40 year grace period before He demonstrated the complete end and fulfillment of the Old Testament.
For the dispensationalist, the church is just a detour in God’s plan. I have heard them claim that the church age is a parenthetical period in God’s dealing with the Jews. However, according to the Bible, the law was the parenthetical period, for Paul plainly told us that the "law was added because of transgressions, till the seed (Jesus Christ) should come to whom the promise was made" (Gal. 3:19.) A slow reading of the whole of Galatians chapter 3 will explain to us that the promises made to Abraham (who incidentally is the father of faith) were in reality made to Jesus Christ; and the law was added because of sin. As you can well see, the law and the Jewish dealings were the parenthetical period leading up to the real plan of God for the Church. Any sensible Bible student must ask himself several questions at this point.

Is God’s eternal plan really national Israel or the world-wide Church of Jesus Christ (which the Jews could be a part of, based on faith in Christ.)
Would God really re-establish Old Testament, Jewish worship, complete with temple and sacrifices, when they have already been proven to be inferior? Would God go backwards when the perfect sacrifice has already been provided 2000 years ago? To offer another blood sacrifice would be a slap in the face of Jesus Christ and the worst form of blasphemy imaginable. Will God raise up another physical temple when He has plainly declared that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost (I Cor. 6:19; I Cor. 3:16) and that the Church collectively is made up of "living stones… built up a spiritual house" (I Peter 2;5.) We know that God told king David that his son would build a house for God. While Solomon built a temple made with hands, Jesus Christ, the Son of David, built a "temple made without hands" – the Church of the Living God. This brings up an important question: Why would God re-establish an inferior method of sacrificial worship that He Himself declared could save no one (Rom. 3). When we understand the false starting point of dispensational theology, it is easy to see how they arrive at the need for a pre-trib rapture of the Church. After all, if the Church isn’t really important to God’s plan for the end times, why not create an event to remove it so its spirit-filled, spirit-led, born-again believers won’t get in the way. Then God can return to dealing with a nation of people that he called stiff-necked and rebellious. He can use the Jews alone to reach the last generation of people.
However, if the Church is God’s eternal plan (of which Israel can be a part if she repents and believes the gospel) then it is a critical part of God’s plan for the end-times too! It would seem rather silly for God to prepare a Church for 2000 years and remove her just when she was needed the most.
We must decide if the Church of Jesus Christ was intended to be the fulfillment of God’s plan and purpose or the nation of Israel (which was purely preparatory in nature.)
I must take time to note that God is going to deal with the nation of Israel in the last day. Many scriptures point to the fact that Israel will see the glory of God in the last day and be converted to Christ. A great truth that is often overlooked is the combining of Jews and Gentiles into one body. (See Eph. 2:19-11; Gal. 3:24-29.)
In the last days the two great streams of God’s dealings will flow together and unite into one mighty river, flooding the earth with God’s glory, mercy and power. No true child of God should ever despise the Jewish nation, for we will be heirs with them and they with us. Let not the Church fall into the attitude of the older brother of the prodigal son who was angry when the father received the wayward son back without rebuke.
There is no need for the rapture of the Church, because the Church is God’s plan and purpose for eternity. This leads us to another difficulty concerning the rapture
ANOTHER CHURCH?
According to the teaching of this doctrine, God is going to remove the Church with the Holy Spirit. This removing is to pave the way for the anti-christ and the tribulation period. They use II Thessalonians 2 as a proof text, claiming the "he" of verse 7 is the Holy Ghost and the phrase "taken out of the way" refers to the rapture. After the rapture, they claim the anti-christ will take over and, despite the terrible persecution that the Church today fears, multitudes will be saved. I think we need to ask ourselves some serious questions at this point.

If God removes the Holy Spirit and the born-again Church, how in the world are multitudes going to be saved? The Holy Spirit is the one who produces conviction in the hearts of men, leading them to a saving faith in Jesus Christ! If the Holy Spirit goes and then comes back to deal with the Jews, won’t His presence in the world produce the same hindering effect that God had to originally remove Him for?
Let’s keep in mind that, according to this doctrine, all of those left behind at the rapture have already rejected Jesus as their personal savior, or they would have been raptured…right? Assuming that the Christ-rejecting people left behind find a Bible and read John 3:16 and get saved (without the help of the Holy Ghost, who came into the world to convict men of their sin)…Now what? Do they have the same Savior as those who were raptured? Do they have the same eternal life? (I must confess at this point that I have heard with my own ears avowed "once- saved-always saved" preachers say that tribulation saints don’t enjoy eternal security, but must endure until the end to be saved and enter into heaven.) Assuming that these people really are saved, are they a part of a different Church than the one that was raptured? Does the Lord have two Churches or just one? Will the Lord have two brides to marry or will he just have one wife?
It should be quite obvious that those saved in the time period known as the great tribulation would be partakers of the same salvation you and I enjoy (for there is truly only one salvation…right?) This leads us the next question:
Why would God rapture His Church (filled with anointed men and women who have walked with Him for years and who have dedicated their lives to the ministry) because they couldn’t handle the pressure of the tribulation, and then start all over again with baby Christians? They would have no mature leadership, no scriptural understanding, and no solid foundation on which to stand. That doesn’t sound reasonable to me, does it to you? Truly multitudes will be saved in the period known as the great tribulation. Many shall turn to God because of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on a mature Church, serving God in the fullness of His power and righteousness. God’s glory will rest upon the Church, so contrasting with the darkness that is in the world that many will see and be converted. Truly the Church shall be a "city set on a hill". The darker the dark, the lighter the light!
TAKING A CLOSER LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURE
Having looked at some very real difficulties concerning the doctrine itself, let’s turn our attention to some scriptural questions. Rather than focus on a one-sided argument that only supports my view while ignoring the scriptures that seem to support the other view, we want to examine the majority of scriptures used to support the pre-rapture theory. If indeed the scriptures teach a pre-trib rapture of the Church, it should be clearly detailed in more than one place.
RAPTURE OR RESURRECTION?
Let’s consider a key rapture verse, I Thes. 4:16:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch- angel and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds…"
The dead rising, living believers being changed: if this isn’t a resurrection, I don’t know how you would describe one! Since the event just mentioned is referred to as the "rapture of the Church", it should be of great interest for us to find out just when it is going to happen. Does the Bible have anything to say about the timing of a resurrection? If the Bible gives us a clue as to when this resurrection will take place then we can pinpoint the time of Christ’s return too!
The Bible does in fact talk about several resurrections, besides that of Jesus’ own. One type of resurrection would be a physical resurrection such as the one experienced by Lazarus. But Lazarus died again, so that one won’t do us any good. Another would be the resurrection of the Old Testament saints who came out of their graves and walked around Jerusalem after the Lord rose from the dead 2000 years ago (see Matthew 27:52-52). But that was 200 years ago.
There are three resurrections spoken of in John chapter 5 that should shed some light on our study. Two of the three resurrections are also spoken of in Revelation 20:5. In John 5, Jesus teaches us that there is to be a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION (verses 24 &25.):
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live."
This portion of scripture is speaking of being born again. The dead here are those that are spiritually dead. Also, Christ identified the time frame by saying, "the hour now is." Notice He said those that hear shall live. Faith comes by "hearing," (Romans 10:17) and without faith it is impossible to be saved (Heb. 11:6).
He couldn’t possibly have been talking about a rapture, because those that heard were dead. There is no possible way you could relate that to born-again, living believers being taken in a rapture, because they are alive both physically and spiritually. Jesus was stating the most fundamental fact in scripture – That, until you are saved, you are spiritually dead. The contrast becomes even clearer when we read verse 28:
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the GRAVES shall hear His voice and shall come forth, they that have done good unto the resurrection of life: and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."
See the difference between the spiritual one spoken of in verse 25 and the physical ones spoken of in verses 28 & 29? The last two resurrections were to come at a later time when ALL THAT WERE IN THE GRAVES would hear and come forth. The passage in verse 25 relates to the spiritual resurrection that is available to all believers now. Paul tells us in the book of Romans, chapter 6 that we are to walk in newness of life now. The resurrections spoken of in Verses 28 & 29 are physical ones that take place at the end of this present age.
We can glean an important fact out of this passage of scripture…there will be two resurrections at the end of the world. One called the RESURRECTION OF LIFE and the other THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION. A question presents itself at this point. Does the Bible say WHEN these two resurrections will occur? YES! Revelation 20:5 places the resurrection of life at the end of the tribulation period and calls it the FIRST RESURRECTION.
In verses 4-6 of Revelation 20, the promise is made to those having a part in the first resurrection, that they would rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years, and that the second death would not hurt them. It goes on to say that, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished."
God plainly tells us several things about these two resurrections:

The one called the FIRST RESURRECTION occurs after the tribulation period and corresponds to the RESURRECTION OF LIFE in John 5:28-29.
All those participating in the FIRST RESURRECTION ruled and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.
The SECOND RESURRECTION, corresponding to the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION in John 5, occurs 1000 years after the FIRST RESURRECTION. Now, to ask an obvious question. How many resurrections will there be before the FIRST one? Obviously none! The passage quoted in I Thessalonians 4:16 and related to a pre-trib rapture of the Church couldn’t possible occur seven years prior to the FIRST RESURRECTION. In fact the event described in I Thessalonians 4 is the FIRST RESURRECTION and occurs at the end of the tribulation period as we have already seen.
THE LAST TRUMP
"Behold, I show you a mystery, we shall not all sleep (die), but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed." I Cor. 15:51
Again we are dealing with the FIRST RESURRECTION, which we have already see will take place at the revelation of Jesus Christ after the tribulation. The point I want to make reiterates what we already know to be true. How many trumps are going to sound after the LAST one? Yet if this passage refers to a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church, then there would be yet another trumpet to sound seven years later. If this were the case how could it possibly be referred to as the LAST ONE?
WHAT ABOUT THE PLAIN SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK OF THE RAPTURE?
To be perfectly honest with you, I have yet to find one. Much of the rapture doctrine is supported by inference. If the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church was the blessed hope, then why don’t we see clear, concise teaching on it by Jesus, Paul or even John?
WHAT DOES JESUS HAVE TO SAY?
Two great passages of scripture used to substantiate the pre-trib theory are Matthew 24 and Luke 17. Jesus is answering a series of questions concerning the end times. He takes great pains to assure His disciples that when He returns there won’t be any secret about it. Everyone would know. How this contrasts with a secret rapture of the Church! In verse 27, Jesus says His coming will be as the lightening comes out of the east and shines unto the west (lightening doesn't always come from the east, but the sunrise does). Jesus wasn’t referring to a bolt of lightening, but rather a sunrise that gets brighter as the day progresses. Isn’t the coming of Jesus referred to as "the day of the Lord?" This signifies the power of darkness being broken a(s the whole earth rejoices at His coming. (It might be interesting to note here that the anti-christ is to be destroyed with the "brightness of His coming.")
If Jesus wanted to relate a clear message concerning a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church, he missed His best opportunity. The passages in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 contain Jesus’ clearest teachings on the very subject…the end times and the tribulation. Isn’t it surprising that He didn’t make any clear reference to a pre-trib rapture?
In fact He told them it would be "after the tribulation of those days," that they would see the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens (Matthew 24:29-30). From this discourse we also find that He will be coming with the clouds of heaven and with great power and glory. Jesus Himself said that his coming with the clouds would be after the tribulation – not before!
Notice again Matthew 24:3. An angel with a trumpet collects the saints. How many times will this event occur? Just once!
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH
Rather than pointing to a pre-tribulation rapture as He might have done, Jesus relates the end-times to Noah’s day in verses 37-42. Jesus said His coming would be as it were in the days of Noah. What happened in Noah’s day? The judgment of God was poured out on a sinful world, but God didn’t rapture Noah away from judgment. We find God providing for and protecting Noah all the way through the judgment. Let’s examine verse 39.
"…and they knew not until the flood came and TOOK THEM ALL AWAY; so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."
How much plainer could Jesus get? Noah was divinely protected in the midst of judgment, but first he had to be obedient to God and prepare the ark to the saving of his soul (Heb. 11:7). The judgment of God didn’t take Noah away, it took the sinners away and left Noah to inherit a cleansed earth. "So also shall the coming of the Son of Man be."
Luke chapter 17 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24 and adds a little extra insight for us. In verse 28 Luke records another illustration used by Jesus to picture the last days. It seems the Lord pointed to Lot as another example of what was going to happen at the time of His coming. God sent angels to remove lot from Sodom before God’s judgment fell. However, Jesus wasn’t teaching a rapture here, else how could Lot’s wife be turned into a pillar of salt? Could someone really be saved, ascending in the rapture and then look back to the world and be lost? I doubt it! But that is what Jesus was teaching if we relate this scripture to a pre-trib rapture. It should be noted here that many (not all) people who believe in a pre-trib rapture also teach that a person can not lose hi/her salvation once he/she has been saved. One (or both) of these doctrines is wrong if this verse teaches a pre-trib rapture. There is no possible way to believe both without ignoring part of that verse.
What was Jesus trying to get across to us? Basically three things:

First and foremost, the judgment of God would come swiftly and unexpectedly upon this world (as witness other scriptures).
God’s children must not have their hearts rooted in this world as Lot and his wife did. It was only with great difficulty that the angels got Lot out of Sodom before it was too late, and only then is response to Abraham’s prayer and intercession.
God can protect His children in the midst of judgment, but we must not look back to the world. In verse 31, Jesus said if one was in the field or on a housetop, let him "not turn back to get his stuff." This was the problem with Lot’s wife, her heart was with her stuff: back in Sodom. Jesus admonishes us to remember Lot’s wife! What a sobering thought.
Could this passage really be referring to a pre-trib rapture? How could someone being raptured "in the moment in the twinkling of an eye" go back to get their stuff? Or why would they want to for that matter?
One Shall Be Taken
As Jesus finishes His discourse on His second coming he says…
"I tell you in that night there shall be two men in one bed, one shall be taken and the other left, two women shall be grinding together; one shall be taken and the other left. Two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other left." Luke 17:34-36
Rapture teachers point to this passage of scripture as evidence of the great separation that is supposed to take place at the rapture. They teach that Christians will be taken (in the rapture) and the sinners left. We would do well to finish reading that passage of scripture, for verse 37 says:
"And they answered Him and said unto Him, where Lord And He said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither the eagles be gathered together."
Since we know that flesh and blood bodies will never get to heaven, where were these bodies taken? To a place where the eagles were gathered together to eat them. This corresponds with Rev. 19:17 & 18, which we don’t have time or space to deal with in this study. (But read it for the interesting question it raises.)
Suffice to say that it wasn’t the righteous who were taken and the wicked who were left. Jesus couldn’t have been referring to a pre-trib rapture here. All in all Jesus missed His very best opportunity to present a clear, concise teaching on any pre-tribulation second coming. He was specifically asked what would be the signs of His coming and the end of the age. Jesus didn’t teach a pre-trib rapture in Matthew 24 and Luke 17, in fact He taught the opposite.
WHAT ABOUT OTHER END-TIME PARABLES?
In Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus told the parable of the wheat and the tares. He interprets the parable in verse 37-34. The wheat are the children of God, while the tares are the children of the devil. The harvest is the end of the world and the angels are the reapers. Jesus said the wheat and the tares should grow together until the time of the end. The He would say, "Gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to be burned." After that the wheat would be gathered into the barn.
"As the tares are gathered and burned in the fire SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD. The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them that do iniquity…and then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom…" Matthew 13:40-43
We certainly can’t find support for a pre-trib rapture here. Once again the exact opposite is taught. The wicked will be taken FIRST and the righteous left to shine. The same message was illustrated by Noah. Jesus was consistent in His teaching.

[onelove]

Why I Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
By Steve Highlander

Part 2

WHAT DID PAUL TEACH?
We have already seen the main scriptures used to support the pre-trib rapture doctrine clearly indicate a RESURRECTION, and that the Bible placed the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation period. What about other scriptures used to substantiate the pre-trib theory? As I have already stated, I can find no clear scripture to support a pre-trib teaching. The only way you will find a scripture supporting the rapture is to infer a rapture on the text.
COME UP HITHER
Another scripture used to support the pre-trib teaching is found in Rev. 4:1.
"After this I looked and behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice I heard was as a trumpet talking with me which said come up hither and I will show you things which must be hereafter."
Now, notice verse 2, "And immediately I was in the Spirit…." John simply received a word from God to come up to the level where he was…The SPIRIT REALM! John may well have had an experience similar to that of the apostle Paul who was caught up to the third heaven and saw things it wasn’t lawful to utter (II Cor. 12). You really have to stretch the scriptures to apply this to a worldwide rapture of believers, let alone the resurrection of all dead believers for the past 200 years. It is interesting to note that dispensationalist typically interpret the book of Revelation as literal rather than symbolic or spiritual. It seems strange that they deviate here to spiritualize one short verse. Needless to say, there aren’t grounds here to prove a pre-trib rapture.
In addition to Rev. 4:1 the phrase "come up hither" is also used in Rev. 11:12. Does this mean that there will be two raptures, with the second one occurring halfway through the tribulation? It is imperative that we apply our symbolism equally or we run the risk of private interpretation.
THE DAY OF CHRIST
In an effort to support a two-stage coming of Christ, pre-trib teachers make a difference between the DAY OF CHRIST and THE DAY OF THE LORD. Is this scriptural, or are they grasping at straws to support a two-stage return? Let’s look…
Do the scriptures speak of six different days (or even two), or do they speak of one day six different ways?

The day of Christ Phil. - 1:10, 2:16
The day of the Lord - I Thes. 52, II Thes. 2:2, II Peter 3:10
The great and notable day of the Lord - Acts 2:20
The day Jesus Christ - Phil. 1:6
The day of the Lord Jesus - II Cor. 1:14
The day of the Lord Jesus Christ - I Cor. 1:18 Draw your own conclusions. How would you divide these days into two separate categories? The scriptures speak of one day in which the Lord Jesus Christ will be revealed as King of Kings and Lord of Lords! Praise God!
A THIEF IN THE NIGHT
In I Thes. 5:2 you’ll notice it doesn’t say that Jesus would come as a thief in the night, but rather that the "day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." What was Paul was trying to convey to his readers? The same message Jesus tried to get across…just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot, nobody realized judgment was so close until it came. The simple idea conveyed is that the day of the Lord would come when it was least expected…like a thief.
Verse 3 goes on to say; "sudden destruction would come upon them, as travail upon a women with child." The word 'sudden' here means "non-apparent" or "unexpected". Then Paul compares the tribulation to a woman in labor. Do labor pains come suddenly all at once, or do they start small and infrequent and grow in intensity and frequency? Paul taught that the birth pangs of God’s wrath would grow as we neared the end of the age. This is why the book of Revelation speaks of God’s judgments in a series of bowls, trumpets and vials.
Verse 4 tells us we’re not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief. The Church isn’t going to get caught sleeping (or at least shouldn’t – it’s time to wake up). Like Noah, who was warned by God of approaching judgment, the Church will obey God, build our ark (in faith and obedience to Jesus) and preach righteousness to a sin-filled generation. Like Noah, the Church will then have to REST (Noah’s name means "rest") through the judgment, depending upon God’s protection and supply. Truly the Church has a great job to do before the end of this age.
Are you hearing God’s voice today? Are you obeying it? Are you preaching righteousness and judgment, or are you hoping that Jesus will come back to get us all out of here before things get too bad? Today is the day to prepare your ark. It will be too late when the rain of God’s wrath starts. If we can’t trust the Lord now, we will never be able to trust the Lord later. Don’t deceive yourself, turn your whole life over to God now and prepare to trust Him through the difficult days that lie ahead.
GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US UNTO WRATH
I Praise God for that. I greatly appreciate God’s loving protection and provision he has promised in Jesus Christ. But, let’s look seriously at this verse. God has not appointed us unto wrath, but the only way you can find a rapture in this scripture is to infer one upon the text. Why is it so hard for people to believe that God can provide for and protect His people through a time of judgment? God has the ability to judge the world and bless His people at the same time! In the great prayer of Jess for His Church, recorded in John 17:15, He asks the Father to protect His disciples here. Let’s read it again:
"I pray not that you would take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil."
It seems that Jesus would have prayed for a pre-trib rapture here, if there was going to be one. Instead He prayed just the opposite. Every prayer of Jesus will be answered. I believe that this one is no exception! God, according to Jesus’ prayer will not take them (us) out of the world, but will keep us from the evil that is coming.
It might help to look at another picture God gave us in His word. In the book of Exodus God delivered His people out of Egypt through a series of judgments (it’s beginning to sound a lot like the book of revelation). The Bible plainly tells us that God put a difference between the land of Goshen (where Israel was) and the land of Egypt when He poured out His judgments on the Egyptian gods. (Exo.. 12:12). Isn’t God capable of doing the same thing again?
ENOCH AND ELIJAH
Pre-trib teachers have pointed to the Old Testament examples of Enoch and Elijah for support. Since we have been unable to find any New Testament support for a pre-tribulation second coming of Jesus it is doubtful that we will find any Old Testament support, but let’s take a look anyway. If these two men do prefigure a rapture of the Church, then their experiences should follow through and picture a tribulation time also. Wouldn’t that make sense?
In Gen. 5 we find the lineage of man from Adam to Noah. Verses 19-24 speak of the entire 365 year history of Enoch. Verse 24 tells us "Enoch…was not for God took him." What does this passage of scripture teach?
If it teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, where is the tribulation? After Enoch’s translation there was still 1000 years of history before the flood. Rather then picturing a pre-trib rapture, God shows us a picture of the overcoming Church.
The 10 men from Adam to Noah have a story to tell. The literal meaning of their names read almost sentence-like to relate the plan of salvation and history of the Church all the way through to final judgment.

Adam-Man (created by God in His image and likeness)
Seth-Compensated or substituted for
Enos-Mortal man; blood thirsty; weak; feeble; sick; incurable; woeful
Cainan-Possessor (the root word means a fixed dwelling place)
Mahalaeel-The praise of God
Jared-Descent; to go downward, to subdue
Enoch-Dedicated
Methuselah-Man of the dart; (coming from two words, the first meaning "man of full length or an adult" and the second meaning "a missile of attack")
Lamech-Powerful
Noah-rest Taken together a statement is made:
Man (created by God) substituted for woeful mortality (and became) the possessor of a fixed dwelling place. (To) the praise of God, (one) descended, dedicated, (a) man of the dart, powerful, (to give) rest.
God clearly pictures the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ and subsequent work in the Church. It is right in the midst of this context that the translation of Enoch becomes apparent. God is showing us a progression in the private and corporate lives of believers. After salvation we begin (or should) to praise God (Mahalaleel). Praise produces humility (Jared) which in turn produces dedication (Enoch). It is important to see here that Enoch or dedication was where a translation was made. True dedication to God is the doorway by which God can move powerfully in a person’s life. Dedication brings death to the flesh and life to the spirit faster than anything else. Enoch (dedication) fathered Methuselah whose name meant "man of the dart." As already noted above, his name indicated a full-statured man, who becomes a weapon of attack in God’s hand. This corresponds to Ephesians 4:12-13 where Paul tells us why God sent His five-fold ministry and for how long.
"For the perfecting of the saints…till we all come together in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST."
Paul says that the Church is coming into a perfect man and the full height of the man Christ Jesus. This perfectly describes Methuselah, whose name means, "Man of full length."
This man (the composite body of Christ which is His Church) that God is currently preparing will be a great weapon in God’s hand He will ultimately use it (us) to destroy the works of iniquity and the anti-Christ. However, it is first necessary for us to get rid of the iniquity (self will) in our own lives, before we could ever hope to combat iniquity in the world. It is important to note that Methuselah lived right up to the time of judgment.
Methuselah fathered Lamech (Powerful). This is what the Church is to be in the last days just prior to Christ’s second coming. Methuselah, Lamech and Noah all lived during the 100 plus years it took Noah to build the ark. Lamech died five years prior to the flood and Methuselah died the year the flood came. Lamech lived 777 years. Seven is the number of divine completion and perfection. God coded a message into Lamech’s life – God’s power will come to perfection and completion in the last days. God’s own number, 777, to combat the number of the anti-christ, which is 666, according to the book of revelation.
We would do well to remember that Lamech, God’s powerful Church, fathered Noah (rest), who built the ark through faith and obedience to God. This is exactly what the Church of Jesus Christ will be doing in the last days – building an ark, preaching righteousness and preparing to rest in God’s provision and protection during the outpouring of judgment. God didn’t take Noah out of the picture, did He? It was Noah who came out the other side of the flood to inherit a cleansed earth. It should be quite obvious that it was the sinners who were taken away by the judgment. This corresponds perfectly to what Jesus taught
ELIJAH AS A PICTURE OF THE RAPTURE?
What about Elijah who was taken to heaven in a whirlwind? While we could learn several lessons from Elijah and Elisha, let’s just pick out the most obvious. After Elijah was taken to heaven, his mantle fell on Elisha, who did twice as many miracles as Elijah did. There are two equally acceptable applications here. One being a picture of Jesus ascending to the Father and sending the Holy Spirit (His own mantle) back to waiting Church. Jesus told His disciples such interesting things as: "As my Father has sent Me, so send I you", and "The works that I do ye shall do also and greater works than these shall ye do, because I go unto My Father" (for the purpose of sending the Holy Ghost.) The story of Elijah and Elisha pictures this perfectly.
The other idea is one we have already seen in Enoch’s example. One ministry can father another. If we allow God to transform our lives, something powerful will happen. No matter which picture you see here, the fact remains the same; a more powerful ministry was left behind after the translation. This doesn’t fit at all with what is currently being taught about the rapture and the tribulation! As with the picture of Enoch, there is no tribulation pictured after Elijah is taken up into heaven. Once again, a careful analysis of the passage lends no support for the pre-trib rapture theory.
DOESN’T THE BIBLE TEACH THAT THE RAPTURE MUST
COME BEFORE THE ANTI-CHRIST CAN BE REVEALED?
That is a good question, because many people teach that as the sequence of events. If that is true, and the Church is holding back the revelation of the anti-christ and the tribulation (along with the unrestrained influence of iniquity), then we would have our strongest argument for a pre-trib rapture. In order to understand this subject we will have to take a close look at II Thes. 2, where they get their support for this idea. Speaking of the "day of Christ," Paul sets the stage for verse 3:
"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day (the day of Christ) shall not come except there be a falling away FIRST and the man of sin be reveled, the son of perdition."
This scripture plainly tells us that two things must happen before the day of Christ can come.

The falling away – I have heard some preach that this refers to the rapture, changing the falling away to a catching away. This is totally inconceivable, because the Greek word here is APOSTISIA or APOSTACY, which literally means "a departure from the truth." God wouldn’t use this word to describe the pre-tribulation rapture of the church would He? The "falling away" is a departure from the truth as many Christians leave their first love to seek their own self-will (iniquity) under the pressure of the world. They will be like Lot’s wife, always turning back to the wickedness and things of this world, even when they know judgment is coming.
The second event that must take place BEFORE the day of the Lord can come is the revealing of the man of sin. Dispensational teachers say this man of sin is none other than the anti-christ. If so, how can they say that the rapture must come first and then the anti-christ will be revealed? In all fairness to dispensationalist teaching, I must insert a note here. Dispensationalists teach a two-stage coming of Christ, and differentiate between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord, thus creating two events, separated by seven years. Any difficult passage is simply applied to the other event. However, as we have already seen, there is no scriptural basis for distinguishing between two different days. Rapture proponents teach II Thes. 2:7-8 proves the rapture.
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way. Then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall destroy with the Spirit of His mouth."
They claim that the "he" of verse seven is the Holy Spirit who hinders the revelation of the anti-christ until he be taken out of the way in the rapture. (We have already discussed several problems with this line of thinking earlier in the study.) If you subscribe to this point of view a problem arises when you try to reconcile verse 3 with verse 7 & 8. Verse 3 states the day of Christ cannot come until after the man of sin is revealed, while verses 7 & 8 say that wicked (who they also say refers to the anti-christ) can’t come until the Holy Spirit is taken out in the rapture. If the pre-trib doctrine is correct, then Paul just contradicted himself within the space of four verses.
THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY
Truly something is hindering the total revelation of the mystery of iniquity, which Paul says is already working. Before we decide what is hindering it, we probably better take a look at the "mystery of iniquity" itself and figure out what it is.
The word mystery is MUSTERION in the Greek. It doesn’t mean "mystery" as we understand the word today. Its literal meaning is "to shut the mouth." The idea of the mystery, as Paul understood it, was something that was known, but kept secret for a time. When the proper time came it would be revealed. Consider Col 1:26.
"Even the mystery which has been hid from ages and generation, but NOW is made manifest to His saints…"
Likewise the mystery of iniquity is something we understand is currently at work (II Thes. 2:7), but will come to complete unrestrained revelation "in his time." God wants us to understand that just as surely as the mystery of God (Rev. 10:7) is going to be finished, so shall the mystery of iniquity be finished.
What is the mystery of iniquity? It might help us to understand the mystery of iniquity if we understood what the mystery of God is. In Rev. 10:7 John tells us when the 7th Angel begins to sound his trumpet the "mystery of God shall be finished." There are several "mysteries" spoken of in the Bible. It is a simple matter to define the mystery of God, as it is spoken of throughout the New Testament (Rom. 16:25; I Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:9; I Tim. 3:16). The most concise teaching available is found in Col. 1:25-29.
"To who God would make known…the glory of this mystery…which is CHRIST IN YOU the hope of glory."
The mystery of God is CHRIST IN YOU! That is what John tells us will be brought to conclusion when the 7th angel begins to sound. You might note that the 7th angels sounds in the middle of the tribulation period. Can you imagine the glory that will be revealed when God’s people experience the full release of the Christ nature that already resides in us? God will truly have a people sold out to Him. A people who will have overcome sin and iniquity and who walk in the fullness of God’s power. Jesus said that God heard His prayers because He always did what the Father told Him to do. This was the secret of His free-flowing power. The word iniquity means "self-will". God is telling us that in the last days there will be a world-wide body of believers who will manifest the nature and obedience of Christ and receive a tremendous outpouring of God’s Spirit.
This helps us to understand the mystery of iniquity. Just as the worldwide body of Christ will submit to God’s will and come to completion. The lost world will turn themselves over to the inner nature that controls them –self will or iniquity. Jesus told us of these days in Matt. 24:12. "Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold." It is important to note here that the word ‘love’ in this passage is "agape" which is the Greek word for the God kind of love or self-sacrificing love. In other words, it isn’t the people of the world who are losing their love, it’s the Church folks! This explains the "falling away" (apostacy) in II Thes. 2. Satan’s great fall from glory came after he said, "I will."
While there may be many personifications of the "man of sin," we can not afford to overlook the fact that each human being has a "man of sin" residing in him. We know it as the "old man" or the "flesh nature" we all struggle with periodically. There is coming a time on earth when every man, woman and child will have to yield to one nature or the other, because both mysteries are coming to completion at the same time in the last days. The heat of the tribulation will be the catalyst dividing those who are truly sold out to Jesus and those who are still filled with iniquity. Read again the words of Jesus in Matt. 7:22 & 23:
"Many shall say to me in that day, Lord have we not…in thy name done many wonderful works? And I will profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me ye workers of INIQUITY (self will)."
Although they claimed to have done great things in Jesus’ name, the truth was that they were self-willed. It is important to point out that these people acknowledged Jesus and were even laboring in His name.
Taking the second chapter of II Thessalonians as a whole, rather than chopping it up, will yield a consistent thought. Once people fall away (verse 3) from the truth, the man of sin will be revealed. The word used here for "revealed" is the same word used for the REVELATION of Jesus Christ-Apocalypse. It literally means "to take the cover off." Once men reject the truth of God’s word, they become lawless, justifying their own actions and in effect becoming their own God (verse 4). Total darkness sets in and men are blinded so as to believe the lie (verse 11).
I can’t think of a better description of the Godless, humanistic, New Age movement that the one related in II Thessalonians chapter 2. This religion is rapidly spreading throughout our nation and the world. They plainly declare that man is his own God and external laws and old-fashioned moral values hinder man from coming to his full potential. As we progress in this passage we will find the principle of lawlessness is already at work (which should be obvious to anyone with any amount of discernment), but will remain hindered from coming to full completion until the time determined by God Himself.
The whole creation is waiting for two events that will begin to occur simultaneously: the revelation of the man of sin and the manifestation of the sons of God (Rom 8:19). God’s people becoming more Godly, while the world gives itself over to the grossest sin nature.
It is this very sin nature that the Lord will "consume with the Spirit of His mouth" and "destroy with the brightness of His coming." The "Spirit of His mouth" corresponds to the "sharp two-edged sword that goes out of is mouth." (Rev. 1:16; 2:16; etc.) We know this to be the Spirit-breathed, word of God! How else would you overcome a lie, but with the truth? The brightness of His coming will also destroy the darkness of sin and rebellion. Everything taken together here, you still can’t find support for a pre-tribulation rapture.
WHAT ABOUT A TWO-STAGE COMING?
As we have noted before, dispensationalists teach Christ’s second coming will actually take place in two stages. The rapture of the Church before the tribulation and the manifestation of Christ, seven years later, after the tribulation. While we have already dealt with the six descriptions of the day of the Lord, it might be helpful to examine the words used to describe His coming to see if indeed two events are indicated. There are three words in the Bible, which refer to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Parousia-Coming; the coming of
Apocalypse-Revelation
Epiphaneia-Manifestation If any of these words could be shown to have a different meaning, or to have been used in a different time frame, we would have a serious argument for a two-stage coming. Is there reason to believe this?
The rapture doctrine maintains that I Thessalonians 4:15 is speaking of the rapture, or the first stage of Christ’s coming. "…We which are alive and remain unto the coming (PAROUSIA) of the Lord…."
But a problem arises when they try to make II Thessalonians 2:8 occur seven years later, when Christ is supposed to come at the end of the tribulation. "Whom the Lord shall…destroy with the brightness of His coming (PAROUSIA)." The word and the events are one and couldn’t possibly be separated by seven years.
How about the other two words? While Parousia means "coming," Apocalypse means "revelation." Aren’t those two different events? NO! A comparison of Matthew 24:27 and Luke 17:26-30 shows that the words are used interchangeably. "As the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming (Parousia) of the son of man be." (Matt. 24:27) However, the parallel passage in Luke 17:26-30 says the same thing in a different way. "Even thus shall it be when the son of man is revealed (Apocalypse). Are these two different events or just one?
The third word is Epiphaneia, which means "a manifestation." The pre-trib doctrine teaches that the manifestation of Christ comes after tribulation (as it most certainly will). However, the verse they point to in support of a pre-trib rapture actually takes place after the tribulation.
Keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable until the appearing (Epiphaneia) of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Tim. 6:14
II Tim. 4:8 assures us of a crown to be given to "all who love His appearing (Epiphaneia)." If dispensational theology teaches anything, it teaches that the Church will receive her rewards when Christ returns in the rapture, prior to the tribulation. Unfortunately for them, the word used in these scriptures place the event after the tribulation, when Jesus Christ is totally manifest as King of kings and Lord of lords.
There is no basis for a two-stage coming in the words used to describe Jesus’ return. The coming, revelation and manifestation of the Lord are all one and the same event.
WHAT ABOUT THE TRIBULATION?
While we have mentioned the tribulation quite a bit, we have never bothered to discuss it. Because of a misunderstanding concerning God’s plan, many people view the tribulation as something to be avoided like a plague (no pun intended). The tribulation will be a time when God will allow the sin nature and the darkness that is presently in the world to come to a head. If man wants sin rather than Godliness, let them have it. Let them have the full measure of sin and the results that accompany it. It was precisely this situation God dealt with in Noah’s day.
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of his heart was only evil continually… and the Lord said I will destroy man whom I have created… but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord… and Noah was a just man and PERFECT in his generations and Noah walked with God" Gen. 6:5-8
God had already declared that He was going to bring judgment on mankind, but wasn’t Noah a man too? The difference was that Noah was JUST, PERFECT and WALKED WITH God. He was protected and provided for through the judgment and remained after the judgment to re-populate the cleansed earth.
As sin comes to completion, so will God’s judgment and God’s Church. Several passages of scripture testify to the fact that God will use the Church to execute that judgment on the world (Ps. 149:6-9; Jude 14 & 15; etc.).
As the world grows darker and darker because of sin, the Church of Jesus Christ will get brighter and brighter because of the revealed glory of God. "When the Lord shall build up Zion He shall appear in His glory." (Ps. 102:16)
ONE CLEAR OLD-TESTAMENT PICTURE FAILS
TO SUPPORT THE PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE
Are there any clear Old Testament passages that give a clear picture of the tribulation period? The answer is a definite YES! Daniel chapter three gives us a very graphic picture. It should be pointed out that Daniel is a companion book to the book of Revelation, using much of the same imagery. It is vital to understand this fact. Rather than repeat the whole chapter here, I will paraphrase the story.
In Daniel 3:1, King Nebuchadnezzar made a golden image that was 60 cubits high and six cubits wide. Notice the numbers 66 cubits and how they form 2/3 of the number of anti-christ (666) in the book of Revelation. You’ve probably already noticed the fact that the image was to be worshipped, just like in Revelation. If this isn’t enough to convince us that God is giving us a true picture of the tribulation period, Daniel 4:33 describes King Nebuchadnezzar as becoming a beast because of his failure to give God the glory. Sounds like we’ve been there before.
King Nebuchadnezzar commands everyone in the kingdom to worship the image, however, the Lord had a few faithful servants left, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. These three young men refused to bow to the king’s image, even when threatened with death in the furnace. The king even gave them a second chance. Their reply was that God was able to deliver them from the king and the fiery furnace if He so desired. You already know the rest of the story. They refused to worship the image and the furnace was heated seven times hotter than usual. The number seven once again refers to the completion of God’s judgment in the last days. There are to be seven years of tribulation also. According to the Bible, God did not deliver them from the fiery trial, but was with them all the way through it.
The word of God declares that "one like unto the son of man" was with them the whole time. PRAISE God! They came out of the other side and they were not burned, their hair wasn’t singed and they didn’t even have the smell of smoke on them. God IS ABLE TO PROTECT HIS CHILDREN THROUGH ANYTHING! There is one other lesson to be learned from this passage. During the last days, each one of us will have to decide if he/she is going to stand for God or bow to the image of iniquity. Standing for God will bring persecution from the world, but God is faithful. "…in the world you will have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (Read again the words of Jesus in Matthew 24 concerning the coming persecution.)
The book of Daniel teaches what the rest of the Bible does: Jesus is coming back at the end of the age, after the tribulation. The saints of God will be divinely protected even as the world pours out its hatred against God and His people. There is no basis for a pre-trib rapture in the teachings of Daniel.
CONCLUSION
It is my sincere prayer that the reader look to Jesus Christ and begin preparing his or her heart NOW, before the end comes. That is the heart of this booklet. Not just promoting one doctrine over another, but warning and preparing the hearts of God’s people for the most exciting and glorious time that the Church has yet to experience. Christ is calling his people to stand in faith and obedience as never before, for the stakes are higher now than ever before. We will have to yield to one spirit or the other in these coming days. In Jesus’ name, yield your life to Him today.
After years of study, I have not been able to find one clear verse which teaches a pre-tribulation return of Christ for His Church… that is why I don’t believe in it.

[CoreIssue]

So why did'nt Jesus teach a rapture,would not Matt 24 had been the best place to teach it,after all the question was asked when and what shall be the sign of your return
He did:
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23991f)] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
We see elsewhere the taking is by snatching up into the clouds.

He answered in order asked. History first, from then until the Second Coming.

Then the signs. There are no signs.

But once the First Seal opens things are not normal day to day, with the events strking hard and fast. And the hour of the Second Coming becomes instantly known.

But no so when the Rapture opens the Trib. As Noah was taken out of the place of concern with the judgment falling immediately. Same as with Lot being removed and judgment fallin immediately after.

Also, in order for there to be a rapture would not Christ have to return twice,
You must pay attention to context.

Second Coming is defined as returning as he left. Which he does after the Trib.

The Rapture is not returning to the earth, is not visible and is per the Jewish Wedding Custom.
as for the other question that I asked,if we are delivered up to satan,and the Holy Spirit speaks through us,how is this possible if you say He will not be here?

[/QUOTE]II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

If the he in this verse is the Holy Spirit,why is it not capitalized?[/quote]
Why should it be? It wasn't in the Greek. That is a KJV add.

Who else could possibly be the Restrainer? No one else is everywhere at once or has the power.

[CoreIssue]

This guy rambles too much. Let me get past his rhetoric and deal with facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by onelove http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=15617#post15617)
So why did'nt Jesus teach a rapture,would not Matt 24 had been the best place to teach it,after all the question was asked when and what shall be the sign of your return


He did:


Quote:
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23991f)] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
We see elsewhere the taking is by snatching up into the clouds.

He answered in order asked. History first, from then until the Second Coming.

Then the signs. There are no signs.

But once the First Seal opens things are not normal day to day, with the events strking hard and fast. And the hour of the Second Coming becomes instantly known.

But no so when the Rapture opens the Trib. As Noah was taken out of the place of concern with the judgment falling immediately. Same as with Lot being removed and judgment fallin immediately after.



Quote:
Also, in order for there to be a rapture would not Christ have to return twice,
You must pay attention to context.

Second Coming is defined as returning as he left. Which he does after the Trib.

The Rapture is not returning to the earth, is not visible and is per the Jewish Wedding Custom.
as for the other question that I asked,if we are delivered up to satan,and the Holy Spirit speaks through us,how is this possible if you say He will not be here?

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

If the he in this verse is the Holy Spirit,why is it not capitalized?[/quote]
Why should it be? It wasn't in the Greek. That is a KJV add.

Who else could possibly be the Restrainer? No one else is everywhere at once or has the power.

Daniel 9
25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22014f)] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22014g)] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22015h)] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016i)] In the middle of the 'seven' [j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016j)] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016k)] " [l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016l)]

Christ Ministry began Mid 69th Week. That is when the Annointed One came.

He dies after the 69th Week. After means next event. Not any time after. No intervening events allowed. He died in 26/7 AD.

The Ruler who came in 70 AD with his army was the Roman Prince who later became Emporer. They destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.

The 70th Week has not begun yet.

No such Covenant/Treaty has ever existed. No such AoD has ever been erected in the Temple.

But we most assuredly see the False Prophet erecting a statue of the AC in the Temple Mid event in Revelation. It comes to life by Satan indwelling it.

Thus the False Trinity is formed and we see the three from whom the evil spirits come forth in the 6th Bowl.

Physical Temple demands Law and no Church.

I have already laid out Revelation 3:10. Kept from means no Church.

As well as the 24 Elders at the Frist Seal. Again, no Church.

Not one Church mention during the Trib. But most assuredly we see the Woman (Israel) and the Twelve Tribes (not a Church issue).

Ezekiel gives and exacting description of this Temple. Has never existed, yet.

The nations who attacked Israel during the Trib must go to Jerusalem and make sacrifices. Not subject to challenge, Biblically.

I have shown in Isaiah 65 there are most assuredly sinners, birth and death in the Trib.
Hebrews

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb.%208:1-13&version=31#fen-NIV-30085b)]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Heb.%208:1-13&version=31#fen-NIV-30089c)] 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

The first covenant was annulled because Israel and Judah failed to keep it.

Christ brought a better covenant, but they accepted it not. Thus he turned to the Church.

Nowhere dies it ever say Gentiles became Israel. No where does it ever say Israel became Anglos and thus Brittain and the US are Israel.

That is both genetically, historically and Biblically nonsense.

Christ, John and other all were Jews and traced their ancestry back to David and beyond.

Christ and so on were Jews and could trace their lineage to Levi and David, in example. all the way back to Abraham and further to Adam.

The New Covenant is the Houses of Judah and Israel. It will not be fulfilled until the 70th Week. At which time Israel will be purged, with 2/3 being killed in the Trib.

The covnenant to Abraham, not Moses or anyone else has ever been fulfilled. His descendents have never owned all the land promised.

But the will in the MK.

His covenant was via physical seed, nothing spiritual.

There is no claim the Temple will be rebuilt, in example, the Bible says it WILL be there.

This guy attempts to claim all the Temple prophecies would be fulfilled. But look at th3 70th Week again.
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22015h)]
Christ died in 26/7 AD.
The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
70 AD.
The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
History marches on.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'
First Seal. Conquering with Peach. The AC.

Not Titus. He made no such treaty around 70 AD. Didn't happen.
[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016i)] In the middle of the 'seven' [j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016j)] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
When he destroyed the Temple there was no treaty in place. He had laid seige to Jerusalem and finally overwhelmed them by force.

No treaty with many. Most assuredly none with Israel.
And on a wing of the temple
The Holy of Holies. Many people think it was in the center of the Temple. False idea. It was on the middle of the back wall farthest from the entrance. A wing of the Temple.
he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,
Didn't happen. He set nothing up. Especially nothing that remained 3.5 years.

He took the Temple apart, stone by stone.

until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016k)] " [l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016l)]
Nothing bad happened to Titus at the end of the 7 years.

He later became Emporer. And he most assuredly did not stay in this area with the Temple standing for 7 years under his control.

Now compare this to Revelation.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'
First Seal is conquering with peace. A rider on a white horse with an arrowless bow.
[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016i)] In the middle of the 'seven' [j (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016j)] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
Same as in Revelation.

The Woes are in Trumpets 5-7, which are at Mid on day 1,261 of the Trib.
And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,
The False Prophet sets up and image/statue of the AC, which he seemingly brings to life. Most assuredly an AoD.

until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016k)] " [l (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dan%209&version=31#fen-NIV-22016l)]

Cast into the Lake at the end of the 7 years at the Second Coming.

Most assuredly a Temple in the Trib.
Revelation 11
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
God's Two Witnesses are there.

To be a functioning Temple, there must be a Jewish Priesthood of Levites.

This guy is not giving proofs, he is throwing out verses randomly and out of context then trying to spin and talk one into his doctrinal position.

I have given verses that show he is flat wrong.

His logic should loose every time to God's word.

He says no Temple and no Israel future? The verses say otherwise.

It is arrogance to say it requires the Church for people to be saved.

For 3.5 years the Two Witnesses are going to be on the earth, in Israel and preaching. You don't think that will not get world wide coverage?

Further, because the Church is gone does not mean there will not be a very lot of knowledgable people left who will get shocked awake and repent.

But remember, even the, in the Trib, Trib Saints are going to be vastly out numbers.
Does the Lord have two Churches or just one? Will the Lord have two brides to marry or will he just have one wife?

Anyone who has to rely on arguments like this have no arguments.

OT Israel is the Wife of God (the Father). We are told that in the OT.

We have no mention of Pre-Abraham people being wed to anyone of the Godhead. Only Israel to the Father and Christ to the Church.

Why would anyone think that when Israel is restored that it would not be the Wife of God growing in numbers?

We are told God considereds Israel an Adulterous Wife, and set her aside. But that he will take her back in the DOTL.


Why would God rapture His Church (filled with anointed men and women who have walked with Him for years and who have dedicated their lives to the ministry) because they couldn’t handle the pressure of the tribulation, and then start all over again with baby Christians? They would have no mature leadership, no scriptural understanding, and no solid foundation on which to stand. That doesn’t sound reasonable to me, does it to you?
Because the Church is not now filled with annointed men and women.

Does this guy not know what Apostacy means? It means weak and falling away from God.

The 6th church, the Rapture church, is called weak and needing to hang onto what little strength it has.

Pentostalism, especially WoF, are not End Times Christians receiving the Latter Rains. They ARE part of the little strength and Apostacy by embracing false doctrines based on self experince, power and so on.

Having looked at some very real difficulties concerning the doctrine itself,

He claims to have but did not. All he did was espouse his personal feelings and attitudes. Which mean nothing Biblically.
Let’s consider a key rapture verse, I Thes. 4:16:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arch- angel and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds…"
The dead rising, living believers being changed: if this isn’t a resurrection, I don’t know how you would describe one! Since the event just mentioned is referred to as the "rapture of the Church", it should be of great interest for us to find out just when it is going to happen. Does the Bible have anything to say about the timing of a resurrection? If the Bible gives us a clue as to when this resurrection will take place then we can pinpoint the time of Christ’s return too!

Yes, the dead rising is resurrection. But the living most assuredly is not.

Note here that 'caught up' means snatched. It means strongly, quickly and forcifully removed.

Now think of Matthew 24 where some are sudden taken and others are not.

Or 25 when the Wise are taken to a place the Foolish cannot go. Yet all are called virgins of the bridegroom.

Yes, there are a number of events of resurrection during the First Resurrection, which is on the DOTL.

None but this one here have the caught up as a group into the clouds stated. None state the living as well but this one. This is the unique Pre-Trib Rapture.

One type of resurrection would be a physical resurrection such as the one experienced by Lazarus.

The Bible gives a unique usage of resurrection. It always includes glorification. Lazarus was resusitated, not resurrected.
In John 5, Jesus teaches us that there is to be a SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION (verses 24 &25.):
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God and they that hear shall live."
This portion of scripture is speaking of being born again. The dead here are those that are spiritually dead. Also, Christ identified the time frame by saying, "the hour now is." Notice He said those that hear shall live. Faith comes by "hearing," (Romans 10:17) and without faith it is impossible to be saved (Heb. 11:6).

Classical false doctrine teacher at work here. Taking out of context and changing meanings.

Here is what the passage actually says.


24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Those who believe, when living, will be saved. They have crossed over to life from death while still in their flesh.

ALL, not some, will be physically, not spiritually, resurrected. Some to eternal life and some to eternal condemantion.

The First Resurrection is for the saved. The Second for the Damned.

The First gain glorified flesh. The Second are in earthly flesh for eternity.

And no, he was not talking about Rapture here. So what? The subject was salvation and eternal consequences. Not Rapture.

But the already referenced verses most assuredly show Rapture.
Does the Bible say WHEN these two resurrections will occur? YES! Revelation 20:5 places the resurrection of life at the end of the tribulation period and calls it the FIRST RESURRECTION.

False.

The 24 Elders are at the First Seal and glorified. Therefore they ARE resurrected before the First Seal.

At Mid, when the Two Witnesses are killed, they ARE resurrected 3.5 days later and taken to Heaven.

Those two alone deny his position.

Those resurrected at the Second Coming are Trib saints. They stand, as spirits, before thrones of saints already glorified and rewarded. As in the Church from the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Bride, per the Wedding Custom, being shown to the world, dressed as Wife, upon coming out of the Bridal Chamber to close the Wedding.

Church is not mentioned between the 7th church and the Second Coming. Nowhere.
Now, to ask an obvious question. How many resurrections will there be before the FIRST one? Obviously none!
I love this Post-Tribber argument. It goes down in flames so easily.

There are saints in the MK that die, as already shown. There are saints at the end of the Short Time when Satan marches on Jerusalem again. The 24 Elders at the First Seal are already resurrected. The Two Witnesses are resurrected at Mid.

To try to hold to this argument is deliberate blindness.

As for the Last Trump. Last Trump, not Seventh Trumpet.

Seventh is at Mid. Last closes the Church Age at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Totally false argument without any foundation to equate the Last to the 7th.

The 7th is folowed by the Bowls. The Bowls are the completion and the last of God's wrath. They cannot occur along side or before any Trumpet.

There is 5 months after the 7th Trumpet, alone by events within the 7th Trumpet.

The 3rd Woe is part of the 7th Trumpet. There are 42 months, 3.5 years after the Third Woe falls.
Two great passages of scripture used to substantiate the pre-trib theory are Matthew 24 and Luke 17. Jesus is answering a series of questions concerning the end times. He takes great pains to assure His disciples that when He returns there won’t be any secret about it
Not a mention of only the Father knows.

Yes, we know when the Second Coming will occur. But only the Father knows when Christ comes for his bride. When some are taken and some are left.

He avoids that.
Jesus said His coming would be as it were in the days of Noah. What happened in Noah’s day? The judgment of God was poured out on a sinful world, but God didn’t rapture Noah away from judgment.
What an edited version.

It says life was normal, Noah was taken and then God's judgment was poured out.

And the false argument of not being raptured from the earth.

Noah was most assuredly removed from the place of judgment before it fell. The judgement was NOT against the whole earth, but only the dry land.

So, Noah was not protected in and through. He was most assuredly removed. And removed prior to, not at the end.

Throw in Lot also.

Lot was also removed from the place of judgement prior to it falling. The plains, not where Lot was, received the judgement immediately upon his leaving.

He was removed from and before, not protected through. Not removed after.

Then he tries to link the one taken and another left to the Second Coming.

TOTALLY avoids only the Father knows and launches into a distraction from that issue. ANY one can compute the Second Coming once the First Seal occurs.

The tares and wheat is another I love.

Any farmer knows there are TWO, not one harvest of wheat. The spring, or early wheat, is weed free. That would be the Rapture.

The summer, or late harvest, has a lot of weeds and cannot be separated until picked. It grows much faster than the spring wheat.

The tares are in the Trib Harvest.

[onelove]

Quote:
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat%2024&version=31#fen-NIV-23991f)] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Reply

How can you seperate scripture,the subject of Matt 24 is what will be the sign of your coming(second)no rapture in between,you can't make it say what it dosent,the subject does not change from the original question,you are trying to say that He teaches a rapture and a second coming,not true won't fit.

This is the subject

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before.

Where is the rapture before these verses?
And these are before the verse you claim to be a rapture,you can't have it both ways.

Now lets look at who was taken and to where


Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).
Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.
Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.
Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.
...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.
Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.
2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).
Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....
Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.
Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...
Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.
I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?
ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1
Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;
Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...
Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...
Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.
Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...
Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).
Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.
Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.
Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.
Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).
Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.
Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.
The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.
Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS.

Now a few questions

Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO
Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO
Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO
Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO
Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.
Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO
Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO
Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

Next question,where are the dead now?to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,this is how Christ is able to bring them with Him,for the simple fact that they are already with Him

[CoreIssue]

Show me where the Bible says the wicked ones will be taken.

The wicked ones were not removed during the time of Noah and Lot. The good ones were removed from the area and then God struck the wicked ones.

Good removed, evil destroyed. Not wicked removed and good ones left.

The Trib is God striking. The MK is not.

2/3 of the population die in the Trib.

Noah and Lot were removed. Rev. 3:10 says the Church will be removed. The 24 Elders at the First Seal show resurrection and Rapture have occured.

Please address those issues instead of jumping elsewhere and making doctrinal claims. Answer these things point by point.

[onelove]

Quote

"Show me where the Bible says the wicked ones will be taken"

Reply

I just showed you,you just chose to ignore it.

Quote

"The Trib is God striking. The MK is not"

Reply

Where does it say God is striking during the trib?You" confuse the Tribulation with the wrath of God at Jesus Christ's Second Advent. They are two entirely different things!

It is upon Jesus Christ' return at His Second Advent AFTER the Tribulation of those days that we see the wrath of God type stuff, Armageddon etc.

The Tribulation is that deception of satan as the antichrist when he comes as the false messiah. Satan/antichrist isn't going to be running amuck killing people, nobody would believe him to be Jesus Christ if he did that.

Quote

"Noah and Lot were removed. Rev. 3:10 says the Church will be removed. The 24 Elders at the First Seal show resurrection and Rapture have occured."

Reply

Noah and Lot were not removed,they were kept from,ie protected by God during his wrath

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [trial], which shall [that hour that is to] come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Can you please tell me how in the world you get a rapture from this verse?

Now,lets look at the next two verses

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Je-ru'-sa-lem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Now how can you be an overcomer if you expect to be raptured out somewhere,and please don't give me that garbage about these being some type of tribulation saints

Another point,the elect of God know His word,so how can they be still here when the rest of you are raptured?

Quote

"Please address those issues instead of jumping elsewhere and making doctrinal claims. Answer these things point by point."

Reply

Tell you what,when you get a chance,can you provide all scripture that you claim to be a rapture and I will point by point prove them all false,how bout that?

[Sid]

Im posting this from this site because it is pretty much how I see the teaching of the rapture,I believe it to be a false teaching,that will cause many to be deceived by satan when he comes as the anti christ pretending to be Christ.


Onelove:


Scriptures tell the Christians to be watchful for the Lord's appearing. Never are we taught to watch for the Great Tribulation or the appearance of Antichrist. To expect that such things must happen before the Rapture destroys the teaching of our Lord's imminent return.

Since you reject the pre-trib rapture, are you getting prepared for going through the Great Tribulation?

[CoreIssue]

"Show me where the Bible says the wicked ones will be taken"
Reply

I just showed you,you just chose to ignore it.
Totally false.

You showed me your claim, which is backed by nothing.

I cross reference this with the dead in Christ shall rise first, then the living and then all go to meet him in the air.

That is a Biblical backing. Show me yours. You have nothing but a claim here. No evidence.

I want to see some Biblical backing for this theory.
"The Trib is God striking. The MK is not"

Reply

Where does it say God is striking during the trib?You" confuse the Tribulation with the wrath of God at Jesus Christ's Second Advent. They are two entirely different things!

False. The Bowls are during the Trib. The Second Coming is after.

You need to give some heavy proofs before you can rewrite and reorder Revelation to suit your doctrine. You have zero and have offered zero.
It is upon Jesus Christ' return at His Second Advent AFTER the Tribulation of those days that we see the wrath of God type stuff, Armageddon etc.

False. Armageddon is at the Second Coming. The armies are gathered prior to the Second Coming in the 6th Bowl, as literally stated.

Proof. You need proof before you can pull apart the order given in Revelation like a jig saw puzzle.
The Tribulation is that deception of satan as the antichrist when he comes as the false messiah. Satan/antichrist isn't going to be running amuck killing people, nobody would believe him to be Jesus Christ if he did that.

Then you have not read the Bible.

First, it never says he presents himself to be Jesus Christ. Your assumption.

Second, it says

Revelation 12
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

This is at the 5th Trumpet, First Woe. Most assuredly killing saints.
Here is the AC. Most assuredly is not presenting himself as Jesus. And most assuredly is killing saint while ruling on the earth. Most assuredly refutes what you said.

Revelation 13
6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=13&version=31#fen-NIV-30901b)]


Most assuredly is during the Trumpets and Woes, which are at Mid.
Same chapter:
He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Most assuredly says he kills ALL who do not take the Mark.

This image is the AoD set up at Mid by both Revelation and the 70th Week of Daniel.

The armies are present at Armageddon at the Second Coming. They are gathered in the 6th Bowl.

Revelation 16

12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30952a)] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." 16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Chapter 18, the 7th Bowl, Rome, the capital of the AC religion and empire, the restored Ten Toe Roman empire, is destroyed, BEFORE the Second Coming.

The armies gathered in the 6th Bowl are there at the Second Coming.

Revelation 19
11I saw heaven standing open