Being Gay and a Christian

[roman8]

I have a friend who said to me last night that he shys away from christianity because he is gay and that Christians tell him he is going to hell because of it .

He told me that he has no choice in whether or not he is gay, it is the way he ws born and that there is scientific proof to say this as well.

I didnt know what to say to him.

I told him that we live in a fallen world and things are not the way they are supposed to be and that if he puts his faith in Jesus that he can be saved. Am I wrong in that statement?

Christ died on the cross for all of us right ? When he said it is finished he didnt say except for ........

[InTheWind]

Being gay is a choice IMO, God clearly states that He doesn`t like it in the Bible.
We are too hate the sin and love the sinner first off then we are to try and get the sinner to commit to Christ.
Yes Christ died for our sin but we as born again believers are filled with the Holy Spirit which convicts us of our sin and we try and change. A person that rejects salvation because they are gay doesn`t want to be saved IMO because they know they will have to change their lifestyle.
If a gay person Accepted Christ today and died tonight it`s my belief that person would go to heaven if they repented and reconized it as a sin first
Probably not a very good answer and i hope others chime in.

[Ladyberg]

There is no real substantive scientific evidence supporting the claim that homosexuality is biological. Take for example the famous experiments performed by Simon LeVay and Dean Hamer. Below is a research paper that I did that explains both of these experiments, and provides the problems with both of them. Hope this helps.

- - - - - - - - - -

In the summer of 1991 neurobiologist Simon LeVay introduced the world to the possibility of homosexuality being biological. LeVay claimed to have found a difference in the hypothalamus part of the brain structure between gay and straight men. The hypothalamus is a small area of the brain that is near the pituitary gland which is located at the base of the brain (see figure 1) (1). LeVay took brain tissue from forty-one routine autopsies. Nineteen of the 41 samples came from homosexual men who died from complications from AIDS (one bisexual was included in this category), and sixteen come from presumed heterosexual men (six of them died from AIDS and the rest form other causes). The last six came from presumed heterosexual women (only one woman died from AIDS, the rest from other causes) (6). LeVay’s research focused primarily on the third interstitial nucleus of the interior hypothalamus. This region is very small, making up only approximately .000009 percent of the brain's mass, and is known as INAH 3 (9). The INAH 3 is spherical or ellipsoidal in shape and is located about 1 mm lateral to the wall of the third ventricle (6) (see figure 2) (12). In his research he found that on average the size of the INAH 3 region in heterosexual males was about two to three times greater in volume than that of homosexual men and in women. With this LeVay concluded that this could be ultimately responsible for homosexual orientation (9).

Levay started his research by first fixing the brains by immersion for one to two weeks in 10 or 20% buffered formalin. Afterwards, the brains were sliced by hand at the thickness of about 1 cm in or close to the coronal plane (6). The coronal sections are any sections that divide the body into anterior and posterior sections and are perpendicular to the sagittal plane which runs side to side (see figures 3 and 4)(7, 12). Tissue blocks containing the anterior hypothalamus were then dissected from the slices made earlier and then stored for one to eight weeks in 10% buffered formalin. At this point the blocks were given code numbers in order to perform blind research, making it unknown to which group each sample came from, preventing any bias. The blocks were then infiltrated with 30% sucrose and then frozen-sectioned at a thickness of 52 m m in planes that were parallel to the original slices (6). Frozen-sectioning is when a sample is frozen and then tissue layers are shaved off for view under a microscope (see freeze-fracture pg. 140 in Biology text by Campbell for an example of this procedure)(2). After the blocks were frozen-sectioned, the sections were mounted serially on slides, dried, and then defatted in xylene. The samples were then stained with 1% thionin in acetate buffer for 15-20 minutes and then differentiated with 5% rosin in 95% alcohol for 4-10 minutes. After all of the slides were finally prepped, LeVay used a compound microscope with a camera lucida attachment at a linear magnification of x83 to trace the outlines of the four nuclei (the INAH 1, 2, 3, and 4) (6).
With the use of one-way analysis of variance (ANOVA) LeVay found that there were no differences found in the INAH 1, 2, or 4. He did find, however, that the INAH 2 was about two times larger in men than in women. But when the INAH 2 of the women were compared to that of men of similar ages, no sexual difference was found. With this LeVay concluded that the INAH 2 was not sexually dimorphic. LeVay did find that the INAH 3 to be dimorphic. He found that the volume of the nucleus was more than twice as large in the heterosexual men (0.12 ± 0.01 mm3, mean ± SEM) as in the homosexual men (0.051 ± 0.01 mm3). LeVay also noticed that the volume of the INAH 3 in homosexual men was similar to that of heterosexual women, which was 0.056 ± 0.002 mm3 (6).

There were many things that were questionable in LeVay’s research that in turn makes his results unreliable. The first problem was in his sample groups. Of the sixteen heterosexual men that were tested, only two of them, which were the ones that died of AIDS, denied any homosexual activity. For the other fourteen men there was no record available about their sexuality and they were assumed to be "mostly or all heterosexual on the basis of the numerical preponderance of heterosexual men in the population" (6). Not only is the actual sexuality of the sixteen assumed heterosexuals questionable, but so is the classification of the homosexuals in his sample groups. In determining degrees of sexual preference, the seven-point Kinsey scale is often used. When LeVay made his classification of the group of homosexuals he included all men that have had sexual encounters with men and he did not take into account any possible encounters they might have had with women. This is evident in how he included a bisexual in the group of homosexuals. This classification implies that there is a unity of sexual behavior between bisexual men and men who only have sex with men that simply does not exist (3). Another questionable item in LeVay’s research is in the measuring of the INAH. Considering the fact that the borders of the nucleus are not very clear, many scientists disagree on exactly how to measure INAH nuclei. The thing that makes the nucleus hard to measure is that it is seen as a scattering of cells, as seen in figure 5(1). Many feel that it is more accurate to count the actual numbers of the cells of the INAH 3, instead of just measuring the volume, like LeVay did. One way that this would help out is that it would rule out any measuring errors due to any possible swelling or shrinking of the nucleus caused by chemicals or by diseases (8).

The second major research that was performed to try to link genetics with homosexuality was the work of molecular biologist Dean Hamer and his research team. In the summer of 1993, Hamer announced that they discovered a link between the chromosome region Xq28 and male homosexuality. Hamer and his research team conducted interviews and took blood test from forty pairs of brothers, all of which were homosexual. The purpose was to see if they shared similarities in a particular segment of the q arm of the X chromosome, Xq28 (10) (see figure 6 for image of Xq28) (13). Hamer’s research started out with the recruitment of test subjects from various outpatient HIV clinics and from local homophile organizations. Through his recruitment he had 114 gay men for primary volunteers, 76 in which their family histories were not known and 38 that were known to have a gay brother (the 38 pairs of brothers came from Hamer’s sib-pair pedigree study and 2 more were added to this group from the random sample) (4). 142 relatives of both groups were interviewed in which 99 of them were male relatives and 43 were female. The relatives of the homosexuals were used to draw the sexual orientation in the family trees (5). When the interviews were completed, Hamer noticed that there was a higher number of maternal homosexual relatives compared to paternal relatives. With these results and the knowledge that males receive their single X chromosome from their mothers Hamer concluded that the gene was passed by the mother (4).

After Hamer finished establishing the sexual orientation in the subjects’ family trees, he began to try to find any X chromosomal linkage within the group of the homosexual brothers. At this point, blood samples were taken from the group of the 40 brothers, as well as from some of their relatives. All of the subjects were typed for a series of 22 markers that span along the X chromosome. From there they were categorized into three different groups according to those findings. If the mother was unavailable for testing and both of the brothers shared the same allele with one another, they were labeled as concordant-by-state. The brothers whose mothers were known to be heterozygous and shared the same allele were labeled as concordant-by-descent. The rest of the brothers that did not share the same allele were labeled as discordant and noninformative if the mother was known to be homozygous for the marker. The results of this research was that 33 of the 40 pairs of brothers shared the same allele in the area of Xq28. Hamer concluded from this that this find suggested that there is a locus, or maybe loci, that is related to sexual orientation in men lies within 4 million base pairs of DNA that are on the tip of the long arm of the X chromosome (4).

How reliable is Hamer’s research? One problem with his research is how he did not use heterosexual men as a control in his research. If heterosexual brothers shared the same markers, then the whole idea of this particular marker being connected to homosexuality is completely nullified. Another issue with his research is that he only tested the possible alleles of 15 of the 40 mothers. This means that it was unknown as to if the untested moms were homozygous or not. The rest of the mothers were classified as homozygous for the marker by using the population frequency of the allele coinherited by the brothers (4). This in itself leaves plenty of room for error in the results. There have been other researchers who have tried to duplicate Hamer’s research with no luck. In April of 1999 George Rice and his team tried to duplicate Hamer’s findings by using 52 gay brothers in their research. They examined the same markers and their results did not match the results of Hamer. They concluded that their results did not support any X-linked gene for homosexuality (11).

In short, science has not been able to truly form a biological link to homosexuality. Aside from all of the problems with the research procedures of LeVay and Hamer, the research in itself forces one to rely on assumptions to take in the results as fact. Also, all of the attempts that have arose to try to prove homosexuality as being biological comes from a naturalist point of view. According to naturalist thinking in this situation, if there is a biological link to homosexuality it would be considered immoral to discriminate against homosexuals. If there was indeed a link, discrimination against homosexuals would be no different than discriminating against someone because of their height, nose shape, color of their skin, etc. Unfortunately, it is naturalist philosophy that is serving as evidence as this point instead of true scientific fact.


Works Cited

1. Aamir, Munaff, et al. WhatCloset?!. http://homepage.mac.com/ihuggermugger/what...lity-brain.html (http://homepage.mac.com/ihuggermugger/whatcloset/musings/02-gayneuro/sexuality-brain.html)

2. Campbell, Neil A., and Jane B. Reece. Biology. 6th ed. San Francisco: Benjamin Cummings, 2002. 140.

3. Carrier, Joseph M., and George Gellert. "Biology and Homosexuality". Science 1 November 1991: 630

4. Hamer, Dean, et al. "A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation." Science 16 July 1993: 321-327.

5. Hamer, Dean, and Peter Copeland. The Science of Desire. New York, New York: Simon and Schuster,1994.

6. LeVay, Simon. "A Difference in Hypothalamic Structure between Heterosexual and Homosexual Men." Science 30 August 1991: 1034-1037.

7. MadSci. Washington University Medical School. 15 May 2003 http://www.madsci.org/~lynn/VH/planes.html (http://www.madsci.org/~lynn/VH/planes.html)

8. Marshall, Eliot. "When Does Intellectual Passion Become Conflict of Interest". Science New Series, Vol. 257, No. 5070. 31 July 1992. 620-625.

9. Nimmons, David. "Sex and the Brain." Discover 15:3 (1994): 64-71.

10. Peters, Ted. Playing God? New York, New York: Routledge, 1997.

11. Rice, George, et al. "Male Homosexuality: Absence of Linkage to Microsatellite Markers at Xq28." Science 23 April 1999.665-667.

12. The W.U.S.M. Neuroscience Tutorial. The Washington University School of Medicine. Copyright 1997 http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/corhor.html (http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/corhor.html)

13. YACs on Chromosome X. Unknown (Forbidden access to homepage). http://www.biologia.uniba.it/rmc/2-YAC-BAC/YAC/YAC-X.html (http://www.biologia.uniba.it/rmc/2-YAC-BAC/YAC/YAC-X.html)

[KRISSY]

God has called us out of darkness into light; the former man and his sins have died with him when Christ is in the picture. How can light and dark mix, how can good and bad come together they will repell against each other. God is against same sex marriges/union. I refer to Leviticus as one of the book of laws ask him to read chapter 20.

[roman8]

I thank you all for your input on this . I do have some questions though.

the problem he is having with even considering the Christian faith is that he is automaticly condemed by us (Christians) .
Are not all sins the same in Gods eyes, from murder to the smallest lie . None of us are without sin, not even after our salvation, most of us still stuggle with old habits or thinking patterns.

I am not arguing that in Gods eyes homosexuality is a sin , how do you wittness to someone like this without judging . HOw do you get the message across in a non jerky way so that he may be receptive to the gospel.
Now if he were tonight , to allow Jesus into his life would the Spirit not then convict him of his sin and help him to change his ways?

Of course anyone who has read any of my previous post wil know that I overthink just about everything . But when I think about what he says about him being this way all his life and not having a choice , I think about others who commit sins and have no choice , for example .

someone who has a serious mental illness like schitzophrenia ( sorry I need spell check)
who is unaware that they may have committed sin in some instances comitts murder , is this person not able to be saved? They dont see there sin as being a sin they are not able to. Or what about people who are born with both sex organs what do they do , they are niether male nor female, are they not able to have a companion.

All of these questions and many more come to my mind. I know that when God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it , it was good , but then because of sin everthing fell apart, there is sickness and deformaties , that is not what he intended , is it?

I would like more input on this if anyone has any. Thanks

[InTheWind]

While God does hate every kind of sin, He does love every individual person more than we can ever image. That's why Jesus came to earth-to show His love and to die for our sins on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."(Romans 5:8) He wants to change our lives so that we will become like Him.

If you are gay, God wants you to know that He does love you! At the same time, He doesn't love the sin you are participating in. The act of homosexuality is sin, just as there are many other sins listed in the Bible. Everyone has sinned against God (Romans 3:23). Jesus was called "the friend of sinners" because He ate with prostitutes, but He never participated in their deeds (Luke 7:34). His love is what changed their lives. Romans 2:6 says that the kindness of God leads us to a changed life. God's love is so powerful that it can radically change our hearts-so we will want to stop committing sexual acts that displease Him. Jesus Christ is our only hope for a changed life.

http://www.fellowshiponline.org/biblestudies/homosexuals.htm

My opinion would be for the Christians around him show him scripturally that his life style is a sin then support him and be there for him, try and get him to open his heart to God first then go from there. :):

[roman8]

thank you all for your input on this.

I think the best thing for me to do is to encourage him to investigate Christianity further, and to let him know that Jesus loves him and is willing to meet him right where he is . I truly believe in love the sinner hate the sin . I just wish that people who call them selves christians wouldnt push people like this away with there hatred towards them.

I believe there is a reason that he even brought up the issue with me, is that he too feels that need to know the truth.

[InTheWind]

thank you all for your input on this.

I think the best thing for me to do is to encourage him to investigate Christianity further, and to let him know that Jesus loves him and is willing to meet him right where he is . I truly believe in love the sinner hate the sin . I just wish that people who call them selves christians wouldnt push people like this away with there hatred towards them.

I believe there is a reason that he even brought up the issue with me, is that he too feels that need to know the truth.

:nod: :): :hug:

[Jessie]

thank you all for your input on this.

I think the best thing for me to do is to encourage him to investigate Christianity further, and to let him know that Jesus loves him and is willing to meet him right where he is . I truly believe in love the sinner hate the sin . I just wish that people who call them selves christians wouldnt push people like this away with there hatred towards them.

I believe there is a reason that he even brought up the issue with me, is that he too feels that need to know the truth.


I agree, have a gay step brother. apperently he thinks God is ok with this,
but family has been cruel in pushing him away with the old ways.

its a sin but not a unforgiveable one. and I think for many yrs. those who had this
had no one to turn to for help. many indulge in other sins God has clearly said would keep one out of heaven, yet are so hard on this particular one only.

God so loved the world he gave his only son. gays were'nt excluded.
I dont understand why they have no love?

[Jane Doe]

[quote=roman8;15117]


I have a friend who said to me last night that he shys away from christianity because he is gay and that Christians tell him he is going to hell because of it .



I told him that we live in a fallen world and things are not the way they are supposed to be and that if he puts his faith in Jesus that he can be saved. Am I wrong in that statement?


When so called "Christians" use that stance , all gays go to hell, they are ignorant.

Although I think what Core said may be the case, it is mostly with people I know practicing similar lifestyle.

What you said was good, things our not the way they are suppose to be. And untruth is rampant. I once heard a preacher vist a church I was attending and he (I wish I could remember his site, I had posted the link on here a long time ago, but it didnt get transferred) said that he had been gay and had believed that since he was a child. He told of openly practicing that lifestyle. He came to know and accept the Lord and asked for his help and guidance and repented. He said he came to beleive that demons were behind this and with the Lord managed to overcome this path and is now married with children and preaching his message.

What I mean by is that faith in the Lord and a will to want his Will is enough to move a mountain. Demons entangle children too. Just becasue he felt attraction to the same sex since he was a child dosent mean he was born like that.

[beatofadifferntdrum]

gays suffer more b/c they know they are different from the world and they cannot change who they are attracted to. Its something kept secret for years, only God knows. He knows that they will suffer bigger hardships and when they accept Christ they are made new in his kingdom. They can be in love while on earth. We need someone to love and be loved by. Being gay and christian is what it is. Myself having gay feelings....I have struggled with it. And the Lords answer was he loved me the same and I am further bonded with his son for being hated.

[CoreIssue]

gays suffer more b/c they know they are different from the world and they cannot change who they are attracted to. Its something kept secret for years, only God knows. He knows that they will suffer bigger hardships and when they accept Christ they are made new in his kingdom. They can be in love while on earth. We need someone to love and be loved by. Being gay and christian is what it is. Myself having gay feelings....I have struggled with it. And the Lords answer was he loved me the same and I am further bonded with his son for being hated.
I won't get into a full blown presentation on genetics and such.

Yes, there are those with a herent traint, note I did not say inherent, meaning unchangable or uncontrollable, for same sex attraction.

We all have negative herent traits, but not all the same. We all struggle with them.

It is a struggle. No argument with that.

But, as with all sin, being it sexual, theft, lying or whatever, we can either strengthen it or weaken, even overcome it, by not giving in and doing the right thing instead.

There are many out there, happily married, with these feelings. But the commitment to marriage overcomes the random desires.

There are others out there that choose to remain celebate. To me a harder way to go, but devotion to that way of life can as well help control or overcome the desires.

Not easy for anyone resisting anything.

The worst thing to do is try to justify it. That makes it more powerful in ones life.

And being a practicing gay while trying to be a Christian is going to result in nothing buy misery. The Holy Spirit is not going to stand by and not let the person know it is wrong.

So, yes, there are herent issues to struggle with. But no, they are not issues that cannot be dealt with, even when never fully defeated.

[beatofadifferntdrum]

I really think churches blow up this subject way bigger than it is.You dont hear stealing having the same reactions as someone being a homosexual. Even tho you say they are both an equal sin. Thats okay tho, God loves me like I said, and he understands my intentions are not lust, they are to find my soulmate he made for me, Whether that soul be inside a man or a woman. <3

[eahaddix]

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, beatofadifferentdrum. :tiphat:

gays suffer more b/c they know they are different from the world and they cannot change who they are attracted to.

How do you know that homosexuals cannot change their sexual preferences?

[CoreIssue]

I really think churches blow up this subject way bigger than it is.You dont hear stealing having the same reactions as someone being a homosexual. Even tho you say they are both an equal sin. Thats okay tho, God loves me like I said, and he understands my intentions are not lust, they are to find my soulmate he made for me, Whether that soul be inside a man or a woman.
I leave the question Lucky asked to him.

True, a sin is a sin in God's eyes. Any will equally put one into the Lake for eternity.

False, all sins are equal. Some sins are condemned as being more destructive in this life and receiving more punishment in eternity.

With all respect, homosexuality is one of the most grievous in God's eyes. In the OT it is described as being so offensive to God he vomits it out.

And sorry, God does not accept your intentions of finding a same sex soul mate as not being due to lust. The Bible calls it perverted lust. A lust that must be fought and never given into.

Yes, God loves all who come to him in truthful repentence. That issue is between you and God.

But no, he does not, nor ever will, accept sex sin as okay, be it homosexuality, adultry, fornication or any other such thing.

As I said before, we all struggle with some issue. But we cross a line that should not be crossed when we try to say God understands and it is okay when we should be fighting it will all our prayer and strength.

[beatofadifferntdrum]

well then biblically I'm done for...oh well better enjoy this life as much as I can! =)

[CoreIssue]

well then biblically I'm done for...oh well better enjoy this life as much as I can! =)
Not necessarily.

If you are indeed born-again, God will not abandon you. But neither will he give you freedom to practice homosexuality.

I suggest at this point in time you answering Lucky's question would be the most productive. I will step out and not confuse that conversation. :tiphat:

[eahaddix]

Not necessarily.

If you are indeed born-again, God will not abandon you. But neither will he give you freedom to practice homosexuality.

I suggest at this point in time you answering Lucky's question would be the most productive. I will step out and not confuse that conversation. :tiphat:

Thanks, Core. :):

Beatofadifferentdrum, do you control your sexual preferences, or do your sexual preferences control you?

Just as "beauty" is defined by "the eye of the beholder," so is "sexual attraction" defined by the individual's perception (further reading (http://www.narth.com/docs/bornway.html)). For instance, according to the individual's physiological and psychological preferences, different people are attracted to different members of the opposite sex. And all individuals have a unique perspective, which is shaped by our unique sociocultural environment, our unique personal experiences, and our unique personality.

As a result, I believe that our sexual preferences are based on circular logic. We consciously and subconsciously develop certain sexual preferences, yet we submit to those sexual preferences as "involuntary preferences," for we believe in these preferences. Likewise, for different reasons,
. . . alcoholics believe that they need to consume alcohol regularly,
. . . drug addicts believe that they need frequent doses of certain drugs,
. . . nicotine addicts believe that they need cigarettes on an hourly basis, and
. . . caffeine addicts believe that they need caffeine on a hourly or daily basis.

Now, in application, overcoming undesirable sexual preferences, such as a fetish, is like overcoming any addiction. If you willingly entertain thoughts about, perhaps even satisfy, any addiction, then the said addiction will grow in strength. Your concessions reinforce your belief that you need an addictive thing. But if you resist an addiction with a stronger belief, such as a faith in Christ Jesus, then you can weaken any addiction. Hence, you should never underestimate the power of your mind.

We are called to be free in Christ Jesus (ref. Galatians 5:1, 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:1,%2013;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:12;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 10:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:23;&version=31;)). Therefore, let us exercise our freedom in Christ Jesus.

[beatofadifferntdrum]

Thanks, Core. :):

Beatofadifferentdrum, do you control your sexual preferences, or do your sexual preferences control you?

Just as "beauty" is defined by "the eye of the beholder," so is "sexual attraction" defined by the individual's perception (further reading (http://www.narth.com/docs/bornway.html)). For instance, according to the individual's physiological and psychological preferences, different people are attracted to different members of the opposite sex. And all individuals have a unique perspective, which is shaped by our unique sociocultural environment, our unique personal experiences, and our unique personality.

As a result, I believe that our sexual preferences are based on circular logic. We consciously and subconsciously develop certain sexual preferences, yet we submit to those sexual preferences as "involuntary preferences," for we believe in these preferences. Likewise, for different reasons,
. . . alcoholics believe that they need to consume alcohol regularly,
. . . drug addicts believe that they need frequent doses of certain drugs,
. . . nicotine addicts believe that they need cigarettes on an hourly basis, and
. . . caffeine addicts believe that they need caffeine on a hourly or daily basis.

Now, in application, overcoming undesirable sexual preferences, such as a fetish, is like overcoming any addiction. If you willingly entertain thoughts about, perhaps even satisfy, any addiction, then the said addiction will grow in strength. Your concessions reinforce your belief that you need an addictive thing. But if you resist an addiction with a stronger belief, such as a faith in Christ Jesus, then you can weaken any addiction. Hence, you should never underestimate the power of your mind.

We are called to be free in Christ Jesus (ref. Galatians 5:1, 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:1,%2013;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:12;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 10:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:23;&version=31;)). Therefore, let us exercise our freedom in Christ Jesus.




That makes sense. But how do I get addicted to men now? With this naturally occur or with I have to be single for the rest of my life? I wouldnt mind being single if I was diagnosed with a disease and only had 4 years to live. But 60 or 70 more years!?? Most men these days in America are the most controlling sociopaths in the world. That is one reason I am really weary of getting in a relationship with a guy.

[eahaddix]

To answer your question, let us begin by considering "faddish lesbianism," which is also called "part-time lesbianism" or the "Lesbian until Graduation (LUG)" phenomenon.

For instance, at private or public "hardcore parties," girls and their female friends commonly share sexual experiences with each other "for fun," as illustrated by Girls Gone Wild programming. However, if you asked these girls about their sexual preferences, many of these girls would not identify themselves as "a lesbian." To the contrary, some might say that they are "open-minded," "experimenting," or "having fun," while others might say that they are simply "bisexual" or "bi-curious." As a result, you have heterosexual girls doing homosexual acts, thereby making "lesbianism" a trivial social fad.

As another example, other girls use "lesbianism" to solve their personal needs. At my college, I had one female friend who had a wild personality. As far as I knew, her mother was the only family which she possessed, yet she did not have a good relationship with her. As a result, she always had to have a boyfriend. But none of her relationships lasted. She even "experimented" by kissing one of her girlfriends, but her light-hearted "experiments" did not produce anything. In fact, my future wife and I stared at one of those dorm room "experiments" in silent amazement and pity.

Quite simply, she wanted someone to fulfill her. On my one and only date with her, she had looked into my eyes and said that I seemed so innocent. And, by the look in her eyes, I could tell that she wanted my "innocence."

What does this phenomenon mean? This phenomenon demonstrates that human sexuality is a voluntary preference. Specifically, you do not "experiment" with involuntary or biologically determined sexual preferences. But, more importantly, if someone is searching for their personal identity or a meaningful relationship, as most college level students are, then this phenomenon presents the said person with an "open door" to personal confusion. Specifically, this phenomenon represents an attempt to gain interpersonal and intrapersonal meaning through one's sexual desires, preferences, and activities, which is a shallow and shaky foundation.

We are not simply "sexual objects," but something greater. So why do people seek personal meaning through their sexual desires? Is this thinking not backwards?

But how do I get addicted to men now? With this naturally occur or with I have to be single for the rest of my life?

[Post #19] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15911&postcount=19)

Well, to be honest, I cannot pretend to view things as a woman would. However, I would recommend that you begin by thinking about your ideal "soul mate." For instance, what qualities do you want your "soul mate" to have? And why do you want your "soul mate" to have these qualities? And what do you want to do with your "soul mate"? Etc. . . .

I will invite my wife, or "Ladyberg," to post on this thread. The issue of homosexuality is one of her primary interests.

Most men these days in America are the most controlling sociopaths in the world. That is one reason I am really weary of getting in a relationship with a guy.

[Post #19] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15911&postcount=19)

And I agree with you. As a guy, I admit that the majority of my peers function at an amazingly unintelligent level.

However, if you believe in the existence of "soul mates," then you must believe that your "soul mate" is out there somewhere. I encourage you to never stop looking for your "soul mate."

My wife and I believe in "soul mates." And, to our mutual joy, we found each other! :yowza:

[beatofadifferntdrum]

I want my soul mate to like being outside, to have the same sense of humor, love God, and still be able to fantasize with me. Its not any easier to find a woman to have all of these characteristics, but being emotionally fulfulled is like way more important to me than sexually. And a woman knows exactly how to do that for me and I am attracted to them so thats why I feel its okay to love women. The guys I usually like are gay guys. When I am with a straight guy it feels almost unnatural for me. I dont like football, dont like to drink, dont like to smoke, dont like cursing, dont like drug addicts, dont like skin heads, dont like preppy boys, dont like guys obsessed with their cars, I dont like businessmen. That basically rules out the whole male population. I think I could be slightly confused but I know for a fact I have never been attracted to a man the way I am attracted to a smart, funny, intelligent woman. My parents always wondered why I never had a boyfriend...and I was not attracted to them is the reason. If you dont have that attraction then you wont WANT to bond with them. When there is an attraction the desire to bond is there. That is where I am most let down b/c I am cursed if I am all wrong and God did give me up to a sinful heart. Even if I was to ever be married....I still dont want a family. Is that wrong of me? :sob:

[wvpeach1963]

We have fallen farther and father into sin with each generation and physical abnormalities are getting worse.

I know people who are born with both male and female sex organs.

What about those people? Are they just lost because of thier deformity?

I don't think so

Being Gay is not always a choice they get to make some are just born that way.

[CoreIssue]

Being a hermaphrodite is a whole other issue.

The norm is that they are not both sexes, but one. And upon determination do surgery to correct the issue.

And no, no one is born without choice, no matter what ones urges are.

Homosexuality is not an inherent (locked in) trait. It is a herent (leaning) trait.

That means one has urges, but they choice whether to pursue the urge or the inherent heterosexual trait.

We all have urges to do wrong. Very strong ones.

But we choose to do or not to do.

[Ladyberg]

beatofadifferentdrum,

If you truly want to be become "addicted to men", the first thing that you need to do is to ask yourself why do you feel that you need a woman instead of a man to fulfill your desires. In other words you should ask yourself what turns you off to men. You will then need to sit down and think on what qualities you find to be the most important when seeking a partner without focusing on physical traits, and then look for these qualities in a man. When doing this, you will have to look past any negative preconceptions you might have against men in general. I believe with the comment that you made about most men being controlling sociopaths, you have had some bad experiences with men in the past. Not every man is that way, and if you try to look past this negativity you will find a man possessing the qualities you seek. This new found appreciation will eventually help lead to gaining a physical attraction towards men as well. In order for this to work, however, you will need to genuinely want this change. Just like any other addiction, you have to be strong and persistent to overcome it. If you do get to the point to where you start to become attracted to men, do not become discouraged if you ever feel tempted again with homosexual thoughts. Many people who try to stop an addiction will experience temptations to bring them back into their addiction. The important thing to do is to stay strong and keep on keeping on. When you do find yourself in a strong, healthy relationship, these temptations should become less and less until you get to the point to where you do not really have them anymore. In the end when you find your soul mate, it will be worth all of the work and persistence.

[Ladyberg]

wvpeach1963,

Can you prove that homosexuality is biologically determined?

[beatofadifferntdrum]

beatofadifferentdrum,

If you truly want to be become "addicted to men", the first thing that you need to do is to ask yourself why do you feel that you need a woman instead of a man to fulfill your desires. In other words you should ask yourself what turns you off to men. You will then need to sit down and think on what qualities you find to be the most important when seeking a partner without focusing on physical traits, and then look for these qualities in a man. When doing this, you will have to look past any negative preconceptions you might have against men in general. I believe with the comment that you made about most men being controlling sociopaths, you have had some bad experiences with men in the past. Not every man is that way, and if you try to look past this negativity you will find a man possessing the qualities you seek. This new found appreciation will eventually help lead to gaining a physical attraction towards men as well. In order for this to work, however, you will need to genuinely want this change. Just like any other addiction, you have to be strong and persistent to overcome it. If you do get to the point to where you start to become attracted to men, do not become discouraged if you ever feel tempted again with homosexual thoughts. Many people who try to stop an addiction will experience temptations to bring them back into their addiction. The important thing to do is to stay strong and keep on keeping on. When you do find yourself in a strong, healthy relationship, these temptations should become less and less until you get to the point to where you do not really have them anymore. In the end when you find your soul mate, it will be worth all of the work and persistence.

Tonight I decided to become celibate forever, b/c I am tired of being confused so I took that whole part of my life out forever. Yay now it really doesnt matter who my soul mate is. With this lifestyle I dont have one.

[eahaddix]

When I am with a straight guy it feels almost unnatural for me. I dont like football, dont like to drink, dont like to smoke, dont like cursing, dont like drug addicts, dont like skin heads, dont like preppy boys, dont like guys obsessed with their cars, I dont like businessmen. That basically rules out the whole male population.

[Post #21] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15921&postcount=21)

Well, I guess that rules me out as well. :D

Not all guys are walking stereotypes. People who remake themselves into a stereotype are "putting on a 'mask'" for the benefit of others. However, if one must do this, then one is not truly secure in their individuality.

Socrates said, "Know yourself."
William Shakespeare said, "This above all else, To thine own self be true."

I believe that you must be true to yourself. And if you cannot be true to yourself, then you cannot be true to others.

I want my soul mate to like being outside, to have the same sense of humor, love God, and still be able to fantasize with me. Its not any easier to find a woman to have all of these characteristics, but being emotionally fulfulled is like way more important to me than sexually.

[Post #21] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15921&postcount=21)

I think I could be slightly confused but I know for a fact I have never been attracted to a man the way I am attracted to a smart, funny, intelligent woman.

[Post #21] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15921&postcount=21)

Well, perhaps you are attracted to these qualities themselves, not specifically a woman with these qualities.

Men can possess these qualities as well. However, the problem is that traditional male machoism discourages the behavior which the said qualities produce, under the penalty of being labeled "gay." As a result, many guys simply "acquire" or "develop a taste" for macho attitudes and tastes.

:nod: I, personally, have no patience for male machoism. My personality clashes with men who possess this type of personality. Moreover, I consider cars, hunting, and American football boring. I believe that if one is truly secure in their manhood, then one should not fear the behavior which the said qualities produce.

Tonight I decided to become celibate forever, b/c I am tired of being confused so I took that whole part of my life out forever. Yay now it really doesnt matter who my soul mate is. With this lifestyle I dont have one.

[Post #26] (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=15951&postcount=26)

:hug: Come on, beatofadifferentdrum, you can beat this thing. Do not let your frustrations get the better of you. Christ Jesus has plans for you.

[eahaddix]

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, wvpeach1963. :tiphat:

wvpeach1963,

Can you prove that homosexuality is biologically determined?

:nod: My wife raises a good question.

[CoreIssue]

Let me throw one thing in here as an addon to Lucky and Lady's statments.

I spent a lot of my youth time, in the country, next door to a home with 4 girls in it.

The oldest, about 3 years older, was boy nuts. She got married real soon after High School and settled down to being wife and mom.

The next oldest didn't like the way the older acted. Was smart and reserved. Too reserved.

She went lesbian and the last I was aware was livng a very confused life.

The next was in my class. She loved guys. Didn't chase, but sure had a hyper sex drive, as one could tell.

No, didn't sleep around. Probably married virgin. And married a preacher.

Youngest was a mix of the first two. Sex drive and boy crazy but reserved. End up married and playing around on him. Which got her killed.

My point is that there was a pattern here. You could see aspects of the mother in each in different ways. But no others in that family were gay. All had large families and stayed marrried. But many had weird personality quirks.

Therefore, the gay one did not get it from genetics. It was a choice coming from what she did not like about the mother, father and sister.

I also am aware of and have actually known, not well, a couple of ex-gays. They are now happily married with families.

Is there urges there still? Yep. But do they over come heterosexuality? No.

How did they change? Prayer and understanding what they were doing was wrong. Then forcing themselves to casually date to get use to the other sex.

With time the differences, between sexes, went from being a discomfort to an attraction. Which became sexual, after a time. And finally a whole package.

They would never go back.

One becomes stronger in the patterns and habits they establish. Change becomes harder.

Not trying to take over the conversation. Just tossing in some issues and views from the side.

[Jessie]

I think what Core has presented is the best I've ever heard and realistic.

the person still has the urges , its not something that just dissappears but rather is just dealt with as needed. :nod:

[beatofadifferntdrum]

I think I am going to join the 20 year old group at this church: Four Corners in McKinney. I like the pastor there.

My only fear is I wont be accepted as their new friend. I've been to other groups and yea they dont really talk to me and everyone has their own little cliques of friends. That is only going to make me want to be close to my other friends who are not really holding me accountable in Christ.

[CoreIssue]

Trying is a start. All journeys begin with a single step.

[dmgill]

Wow, after reading this I just had to chime in. This could end up being a long post. I will try and make it as short as possible. About 6 years ago I went back to school and the first day, in speach class we were asked to present a speach about the person sitting next to us. I knew when I first saw her that she was a Lesbian. I could just tell and I asked immediately, God why me. Well, we talked and when I told her I was a Christian, she blew. She informed me that it was people like me that caused all the hate in this world against people like her. Boy, this went on for a while and then I finally got my chance to talk. I told her that I, a Christian would be the first to stand by her if anyone tried to harm her. I told her that God loved her as much as he loved me. I also told her and made it very clear that he did not like her life style but he still loved her and so did I. Anyway to make a long story short, my presentation went well and she thanked me for the way I handled her situation in my speach. She,over time became a friend, and actually stood up for me one day when a young man was showing off his art of naked women. She told him to put it away because it was offensive to me. I was shocked. I also ended up meeting other people who were gay. This has been the hardest time I have ever had, trying to show Christian love and yet be stern about Homosexuality. I always said, I don't care what they do as long as I am not around it. Well, God showed me! I now have friends, and yes I claim them to be friends who are sexually and morally wrong but yet I love them. I have always been honest with them, I have always told them very clearly what the Bible says about their choice, I have even gone as far as to say that you made a choice to be that way. I don't believe that anyone is born that way, I believe it is a choice. This is a hard thing to do, yet I love my gay friends and I pray for them. My heart just aches for them, yet if we as Christians don't love and pray for them, they will be lost forever. It is not easy and that does not mean we should hang out with them but we still have to show them Christs love and keep talking with them and hope that it gets down in their hearts and they see the truth and change. If not, at least when we stand before God we won't be held accountable for not trying.

[CoreIssue]

:tiphat: Good for you!

[Jessie]

Wow, after reading this I just had to chime in. This could end up being a long post. I will try and make it as short as possible. About 6 years ago I went back to school and the first day, in speach class we were asked to present a speach about the person sitting next to us. I knew when I first saw her that she was a Lesbian. I could just tell and I asked immediately, God why me. Well, we talked and when I told her I was a Christian, she blew. She informed me that it was people like me that caused all the hate in this world against people like her. Boy, this went on for a while and then I finally got my chance to talk. I told her that I, a Christian would be the first to stand by her if anyone tried to harm her. I told her that God loved her as much as he loved me. I also told her and made it very clear that he did not like her life style but he still loved her and so did I. Anyway to make a long story short, my presentation went well and she thanked me for the way I handled her situation in my speach. She,over time became a friend, and actually stood up for me one day when a young man was showing off his art of naked women. She told him to put it away because it was offensive to me. I was shocked. I also ended up meeting other people who were gay. This has been the hardest time I have ever had, trying to show Christian love and yet be stern about Homosexuality. I always said, I don't care what they do as long as I am not around it. Well, God showed me! I now have friends, and yes I claim them to be friends who are sexually and morally wrong but yet I love them. I have always been honest with them, I have always told them very clearly what the Bible says about their choice, I have even gone as far as to say that you made a choice to be that way. I don't believe that anyone is born that way, I believe it is a choice. This is a hard thing to do, yet I love my gay friends and I pray for them. My heart just aches for them, yet if we as Christians don't love and pray for them, they will be lost forever. It is not easy and that does not mean we should hang out with them but we still have to show them Christs love and keep talking with them and hope that it gets down in their hearts and they see the truth and change. If not, at least when we stand before God we won't be held accountable for not trying.

wish more had that heart! :nod:

[kay-gee]

Check out 1 cor. 6:9 thru 11. Paul says "and such some of you were" the operative word being "WERE" . It's clear from this text that their were homosexuals at Corinth but are now baptized believing Christians. Gods forgiveness is for all but you have to give up whatever in your life thats offensive to Him, regardless of whatever that is...stealing, promiscuity,cheating, drunkeness, greed, hatred, etc... I pray that this sheds some light on the topic for you all. All the Best.

[CoreIssue]

But being born-again is only the beginning.

Now one has to live sanctification. Meaning learning, growing and changing.

Being born-again is easy. Overcoming is not.

But being born-again most assuredly puts it there for the gaining.

[paul]

you all need to read 1 corinthians 6 and pay very close attention to verse 11. then you need to read john 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profits nothing:... its not who we are in the flesh that matters to god. its that we see one another in his spirit. this is the ONLY way we can see each other forgiven. if we continue to judge one another by the outside we will always see one another in darkness. christ didnt judge after the flesh so what gives us the right to judge after the flesh. john 8. in fact this is whole reason christ came in the flesh is to die for sin in the flesh, yet we continue to judge one another by it?????????? read this web site called antidarkness.com and it will rock your world - literally!

[InTheWind]

paul where does repentance fit into that equation, if there is no repentance then the believer is no better then the unbeliever are they.
Sin for the believer is not a salvation issue but a believer is convicted of there sin and tries to stop it.

[paul]

in the wind
read this antidarkness.com and it will address in detail everything that we have been talking about. it says its under construction but it still opens.
thanks

[InTheWind]

There is always consequences for sin, here in the flesh and at the judgment seat of Christ when our lives are laid out and tested by fire.
I find it hard to believe that a true born again believe could go through life sinning without feeling guilty about it and repenting.

[CoreIssue]

I think I will stay with the Bible, paul.
Romans 1:24-27
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1 Corinthians 6:9
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

The OT tells us homosexuality is an abomination that God hates so much he spews it from his mouth.

And God does not change, so his hatred of it does not change.

As ITW says, there is a distinction between repenting of a sin and struggling with it and embracing it.

[paul]

you guys are judging after the flesh. christ didnt even judge after the flesh (john 8), what gives us the right to? 2 corinthians 5:16 "wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more" its only when we judge one another by the outside that we find ourselves condemning each other as sinners. it takes No faith to judge by what we see on the outside. we are to see one another in the spirit god gave us ALL through christ.

if you want to judge someone a sinner for being gay or any other offence that YOU might think is sin than you are under the law. romans 3:20 "...for by the law is the knowledge of sin". now if you insist on being under the law then you are judging yourself. james 2:10 "for whosoever shall keep the whole law and offend in one point he is guilty of all".

you do NOT want to be under the law. the reason the law was given was for this exact purpose. it showed that man could not be righteous with his flesh. this was why man needed a savior. once christ died we were spiritually circumsized from the curse of our sinful flesh. colosians 2:11 "in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in the putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of christ." now if you continue to judge by the flesh you are not loving your brother the way that god loved you. you are condemning after the flesh, the very thing christ was sent to die for and this makes god a liar. this is sin.

we are to spiritually recon this flesh dead. romans 8:8-9 "so then they that are in the flesh cannot please god. but you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be the spirit of god dwell in you. now if any man have not the spirit of christ, he is none of his."

this is the only way there can be no hypocracy or judgment. this is the only way we can be free. im telling you guys you need to read the website antidarkness.com. it answers all the questions.

[CoreIssue]

You are trying to call homosexuality okay. It isn't.

The issue is not forgiveness and struggle with sin, here. It is your effort to try to say it isn't a sin.

God does chastise those who are born-again for continuing in sin. Not as condemnation, but as purifying.

[paul]

your title is coreissue yet you cant see past the outside. i never cease wondering why with all the verses in the bible that tell us that we have been sanctified, washed, forgiven, made holy, purified, freed of sin and man will use a passage such as romans 1 without reading the rest of the book just to satisfy his lust to condemn. im sorry but this is not love.

1 john 4:10 "herein is love, not that we loved god, but that he loved us, and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins. beloved, if god so loved us , we ought also to love one another."

how did he love us? he sanctified us through his son.

did he exclude the gays? no, he did it for ALL of us.

if he washed us of sin in the flesh and we are throwing it back in one anothers face, wouldn't this be unbelief?

[InTheWind]

I think this will answer you, Hate the sin, love the sinner.
You still miss the fact that if a person is truly born again they will be convicted of their sin and repent, theree`s no way of getting around that.

[paul]

sorry guys, we just see things different. keep reading your bibles. love in the truth.

[InTheWind]

So are you saying if someone is sinning, say a murderer we`re supposed to not judge that person just love him.

[TEXASGRANDMA]

If you are a theif and you get saved you have to stop stealing. If you are drug addict, you have to stop using drugs. If you are gay, you have to stop having a gay relationship, if you get saved. Is it easy? of course not! but anything is possible for God.

[InTheWind]

If you are a theif and you get saved you have to stop stealing. If you are drug addict, you have to stop using drugs. If you are gay, you have to stop having a gay relationship, if you get saved. Is it easy? of course not! but anything is possible for God.

Right on :nod: , sure we`re supposed to feel good about our salvation and i agree that a lot of times we beat ourselves up over things that we are forgiven for but repentance seems to have slipped through the cracks of now day teaching by some.

[kay-gee]

I look at it this way. You should be continually going through your life as with a fine tooth comb. Each time you come across a sinful trait or habit it must dealt with (by eliminating it). It is like a metal refiner refining gold by continually removing dross till the purest gold is acheived. Whether you are a theif, a murderer, wife beating drunkard or Homosexual, it dosen't matter, if you have it, get rid of it! It has nothing really to do with being loving or not loving. It has to do with seeking a level of purity as God requires of His child. Hope this is of some help....All the best.......

[CoreIssue]

I look at it this way. You should be continually going through your life as with a fine tooth comb. Each time you come across a sinful trait or habit it must dealt with (by eliminating it). It is like a metal refiner refining gold by continually removing dross till the purest gold is acheived. Whether you are a theif, a murderer, wife beating drunkard or Homosexual, it dosen't matter, if you have it, get rid of it! It has nothing really to do with being loving or not loving. It has to do with seeking a level of purity as God requires of His child. Hope this is of some help....All the best.......
Well said.

[sparkchaser]

I have some thoughts that indirectly relates to this type problem, if you are still reading replys let me know.

[eahaddix]

I have some thoughts that indirectly relates to this type problem, if you are still reading replys let me know.

:scratch: I believe that paul did a "post and run."

I have a simple question. If paul demands that we always see past his sinful acts, then how can we trust paul, especially as a brother in Christ Jesus? Trust requires some form of accountability, yes?

So, really, if I tell you a harmful life, then you have every right to confront me about the said lie. And if I told you to "get over it" and see past it, then you would be rightfully angry at me and lose your trust in me.