One taken, one left.

[vagabond]

Truth is, i'll still be around to read this myself.

I do think that there will be a rapture, but nothing like what is commonly taught, i can't convince myself that jesus will be seen coming from "without", but from within. Not with an "outward" observation, but will suddenly appear (be recognized) right in our midst. All will see him, but few will recognoze him.

I look for Christ to appear in the light of the brethren, not in the clouds of the sky.

Could i be wrong? If so would i be left behind? Is my attitude wrong because i can't see a physical, but rather a spiritual rapture, not of the body, but of the mind?

So if i'm wrong and you guys are right, bon voyage! And please try and think well of me, but of course, i'll still be preaching the same message to those left behind.

[CoreIssue]

Well, to spiritualize the verses, you must offer a foundation proof, or admit it is a person conjucture you believe with any proof at all.

The verses do say we will be literally body snatched up to him.

How one can be only spiritually snatched is an amazing claim.

The Greek word for Rapture does mean forcibly taken. Snatched away. Removed to elsewhere.

How can one be spiritually removed to elsewhere and have their bodies left in a way that others do not notice?

[vagabond]

Hey CI

Well, to spiritualize the verses, you must offer a foundation proof, or admit it is a person conjucture you believe with any proof at all.

The verses do say we will be literally body snatched up to him.

How one can be only spiritually snatched is an amazing claim.

The Greek word for Rapture does mean forcibly taken. Snatched away. Removed to elsewhere.

How can one be spiritually removed to elsewhere and have their bodies left in a way that others do not notice?


In that day there will only be two nations:
1.the children of light
2.the children of darkness

The children of darkness (deception) are all the different religions brought together against the children of light (knowledge)

The inner man is a child of light, the outer man is a child of darkness.

The inner man (sheep) is born of God. The outer man (goats) is born of the earth and subject to vanity.

"Two" in a bed, one taken one left. "Two" in a field, one taken one left. "Two" grinding at the wheel, one taken one left. Each of us has an inner and an outer man, that's where the "Two" comes from. And it's the word of the Lord that divides between the two. That's why he comes with a "shout", with a "voice".

"My sheep hear my voice".

[CoreIssue]

In that day there will only be two nations:
1.the children of light
2.the children of darkness

The children of darkness (deception) are all the different religions brought together against the children of light (knowledge)
Not correct.

Until the end of time there are many nations. Within them are those of God and Christ and those who reject.

Many have knowledge of God, but that does not make them his. Satan has tons of knowledge of God, but most assuredly is of darkness.

You statement here is not accurate.

It takes more than knowing God to be of God.
The inner man is a child of light, the outer man is a child of darkness.

False.

The spirit and flesh of the unsaved are both dead. No light in them.

The spirit of the saved is clean, but the flesh is still sinful.
The inner man (sheep) is born of God. The outer man (goats) is born of the earth and subject to vanity.
Improper usage of terms.

Everyone has a spirit, be they born-again or not.

The sheep and goats will both have flesh in eternity. One gloriified and the other not.
"Two" in a bed, one taken one left. "Two" in a field, one taken one left. "Two" grinding at the wheel, one taken one left. Each of us has an inner and an outer man, that's where the "Two" comes from. And it's the word of the Lord that divides between the two. That's why he comes with a "shout", with a "voice".
Nonsense.

It is says two distinct inviduals. It says the whole person goes. The dead in Christ are resurrected into their flesh and then all go, flesh and spirit together.

You cannot take the spirit and leave the flesh behind, still functional.

You have gone totally metaphysical here without a glimmer of Biblical backing.

"My sheep hear my voice".
All living saints, now living and dead, hear his voice. They flesh just doesn't like the message.

[eahaddix]

"Two" in a bed, one taken one left. "Two" in a field, one taken one left. "Two" grinding at the wheel, one taken one left. Each of us has an inner and an outer man, that's where the "Two" comes from.

Nowhere does Biblical Scripture define one's body and spirit as two different people. To the contrary, a body without a spirit is dead (James 2:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:26;&version=31;)).

So if i'm wrong and you guys are right, bon voyage! And please try and think well of me, but of course, i'll still be preaching the same message to those left behind.

:exclaim: So, in other words, your doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Salvation, renders sound doctrine irrelevant (ref. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:3-4;&version=31;))?

[vagabond]

Hey Lucky!

Actually my ur message is quite different from any ur message i've ever heard.

As for the spirit and body being two different people, i would suppose that to be correct. However i wasn't referring to the human body and it's spirit, but rather the new creature one becomes when one is "born again". I can think of a few scriptures that describe that, as i'm sure you can.

[eahaddix]

Welcome back, vagabond. :):

As for the spirit and body being two different people, i would suppose that to be correct. However i wasn't referring to the human body and it's spirit, but rather the new creature one becomes when one is "born again".

No, in Post #3 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=14769&postcount=3)
, you clearly equated one's "inner man" and "outer man" with a separable "two." However, Biblical Scripture clearly defines one's "inner being" as one's spirit (Romans 7:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:22-23;&version=31;)), which cannot leave the body without killing the body (James 2:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:26;&version=31;)). As a result, your conceptualization of the Rapture is unBiblical.

However, in response to this objection, you are attempting to redefine your operative terminology. Specifically, in the place of separating peoples' "inner man" from their "outer man," you advocate the separation of "born again" "new creatures" from the "old creatures." Yet, despite this readjustment in terms, you have simply restated your original statement under different terminology.

When the believer is saved, the Spirit regenerates (Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%203:5;&version=31;)) the believer's spirit, while the believer's body remains unregeneratively sinful (Romans 7:22-23, 25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:22-23,%2025;&version=31;), Galatians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:17;&version=31;)). As a result, the believer's regenerated spirit inputs new desires and feelings into the believer's mind (ref. Romans 8:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:16;&version=31;), 1 John 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:9;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:10;&version=31;), 1 John 4:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:7;&version=31;)). Hence, the said regeneration and the effects of the said regeneration make the believer a "new creation" (ref. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:17;&version=31;)), not a "new creature"[**].

However, at the same time, the believer's body is not a "new creation," until the Rapture's resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:50-54;&version=31;)). As a result, by advocating the separation of "born again" "new creations" from the "old," you are still advocating the separation of peoples' "inner man" from their "outer man."

----------
Footnotes:

Post #3 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=14769&postcount=3) reads:

"'Two' in a bed, one taken one left. 'Two' in a field, one taken one left. 'Two' grinding at the wheel, one taken one left. Each of us has an inner and an outer man, that's where the 'Two' comes from."

[**] People commonly equivocate the terms "new creation" and "new creature." This is misleading, for "born again" men do not cease to be men.

Actually my ur message is quite different from any ur message i've ever heard.

You did not answer my question. Does the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Salvation, make sound doctrine irrelevant?

[vagabond]

Thanks for the dialogue lucky, i apologize for my inability to convey my thoughts and choose the correct terms. I appreciate your gentle appraoch, usually i get wacked over the head, not that i don't deserve it, but one can get a little gun shy after a while.

In 1 Cor.15 Paul talks about the "two" that i'm trying to describe. He notes that we will not all sleep, but will all be changed from one image into the other. The first image is earthy, the second is heavenly. The first shall put on the second and the evil of the first shall be swallowed up. I picture that as the inner and outer being, the inner being has the will and desire of the heavenly Father, while the outer being has a will and nature contrary to the inner. At the rapture i see the inner man being drawn out of the outer man at the sound of the Lord's voice, i see this change happening "AT ONCE", in a moment, at the sound of the last trump.

You stated:When the believer is saved, the Spirit regenerates (Titus 3:5) the believer's spirit, while the believer's body remains unregeneratively sinful (Romans 7:22-23, 25, Galatians 5:17). As a result, the believer's regenerated spirit inputs new desires and feelings into the believer's mind (ref. Romans 8:16, 1 John 3:9, Ephesians 2:10, 1 John 4:7).

I agree with that, i call it the salvation of the soul (mind). We receive the true Spirit in our spirit. ("The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord") Once this has taken place we are to "work out" our salvation. Allow our mind to receive this new Spirit as our new guide and desire. Sort of divorcing the old nature (sinful spirit of the flesh) and receiving a new husband. The old was put to death by the new, however, the effect and memory of the old are still quite evident in our mind and body.

As for "the" doctrine of ur, i cannot answer it's validity, but no doctrine negates "sound doctrine".

Gotta run, but am anxious to hear more of your thoughts on this matter.

[vagabond]

Have time for a little further detail.

Romans 7:22-23
22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Paul states here that he has an inner being which delights after the law of God. While he has another law, the law of sin, working in his natural members. Paul (as the inner being)is looking to be "delivered" from this body. Rom.7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Jesus Christ will separate these two beings, the sheep to his right (hand of mercy) and the goats to his left (hand of judgement). How does he separate, he is the Word of God: Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

By his word he separates between the "two" natures in man, i think that's why when the bible records the "coming" it is always associated with a voice, trump, shout etc... Because his Word is once again present in it's "fulness"!

[eahaddix]

Thanks for the dialogue lucky, i apologize for my inability to convey my thoughts and choose the correct terms.

You are welcome. :tiphat:

My objection centers around the focus on "separation," "divorce," and "drawing out." The Biblical text teaches the regenerative transformation of an individual believer (Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%203:5;&version=31;) [cross ref. John 3:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:5-7;&version=31;), John 1:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:12-13;&version=31;), 1 Peter 1:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:23;&version=31;)], 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:52-53;&version=31;) [cross ref. Romans 8:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:23;&version=31;)]), not the separation of anything within an individual believer. For instance, at the Rapture's resurrection, believer's bodies will be changed, yet believers will have the same bodies (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-54 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:42-44,%2050-54;&version=31;)), as illustrated by Christ Jesus's resurrected body (Luke 24:36-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:36-43;&version=31;), John 20:24-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:24-28;&version=31;)).

As a result, regenerative transformation does not require any separation, otherwise a unnecessary tautology results.

Jesus Christ will separate these two beings, the sheep to his right (hand of mercy) and the goats to his left (hand of judgement). How does he separate, he is the Word of God: Hebrews 4:12

Nowhere does Biblical Scripture apply the imagery of dividing "goats" and "sheep" to the individual believer's regeneration. To the contrary, in Matthew 25:31-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=31;), "the sheep" are the saved (Matthew 25:31-33, 34, 46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-33,%2034,%2046;&version=31;) [cross ref. John 10:11-12, 27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:11-12,%2027-29;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24-25;&version=31;)]) and "the goats" are the unsaved, who enter into eternal punishment by fire (Matthew 25:31-33, 41, 46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-33,%2041,%2046;&version=31;)).

As for "the" doctrine of ur, i cannot answer it's validity, but no doctrine negates "sound doctrine".

:nod: Agreed. So why preach the same message, if you know that the said message is in error (ref. Post #1 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=14765&postcount=1))?

I appreciate your gentle appraoch, usually i get wacked over the head,[...]

:whistlin: CoreIssue . . . :whistlin:

[vagabond]

Hey Lucky

My objection centers around the focus on "separation," "divorce," and "drawing out." The Biblical text teaches the regenerative transformation of an individual believer (Titus 3:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%203:5;&version=31;) [cross ref. John 3:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:5-7;&version=31;), John 1:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:12-13;&version=31;), 1 Peter 1:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%201:23;&version=31;)], 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:52-53;&version=31;) [cross ref. Romans 8:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:23;&version=31;)]), not the separation of anything within an individual believer. For instance, at the Rapture's resurrection, believer's bodies will be changed, yet believers will have the same bodies (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-54 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:42-44,%2050-54;&version=31;)), as illustrated by Christ Jesus's resurrected body (Luke 24:36-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:36-43;&version=31;), John 20:24-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:24-28;&version=31;)).

In 1 Cor.15 Paul talks about death and resurrection. He answers this very topic in detail:
The body that is buried is not the same body that is raised, but it is given a new body. He likens the image of the first body to a "seed" form and the image of the second as "glorified" (the glory of a seed is it's risen plant) Here's what i'm seeing in this:

At the "re-formation" of this earth the Holy Spirit brooded or hovered over the face of the deep, until God spoke the Word which became light, which was used to form all things.

When it was announced to the virgin Mary that she was to mother the son of God, the angel told her the Holy Spirit shall come upon the and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee and an Holy thing shall be born of thee. Mary responded, "be it unto me according to thy "word". It reminds me of how the Holy Spirit brooded over the face of the deep.

What i'm seeing, using the above as frame work, is, we are all first vessels of dis-honor, until we "receive" (all are given opportunity, but not all receive) the word of God via the Holy spirit. The word is spiritual and abides in our spirit, as we, with our minds (soul) meditate on his word it grows in our soul, we inherit it's nature. At the rapture the voice of the Lord is heard by this inner being and it rises from the body (grave) that it has been dwelling in. Like a birth, or like a seed blossoming out of the earth in it's new form. Here are a few scriptures i find relative to these thoughts:

1 Tim.2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing— if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Isaiah 62:5 As a young man marries a maiden, so will your sons marry you; as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride, so will your God rejoice over you.

Isaiah 60
The Glory of Zion
1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.
2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the LORD rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.

As a result, regenerative transformation does not require any separation, otherwise a unnecessary tautology results.

What i'm seeing is, christians, as Paul in rom.7, have "two" natures warring against one another, these natures are separated at the coming of Christ, so that one is completly dominant in that person. A person is completly possesed by one nature or the other. Not having "two" as we now do.

Jesus Christ will separate these two beings, the sheep to his right (hand of mercy) and the goats to his left (hand of judgement). How does he separate, he is the Word of God: Hebrews 4:12

Nowhere does Biblical Scripture apply the imagery of dividing "goats" and "sheep" to the individual believer's regeneration. To the contrary, in Matthew 25:31-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=31;), "the sheep" are the saved (Matthew 25:31-33, 34, 46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-33,%2034,%2046;&version=31;) [cross ref. John 10:11-12, 27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:11-12,%2027-29;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24-25;&version=31;)]) and "the goats" are the unsaved, who enter into eternal punishment by fire (Matthew 25:31-33, 41, 46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-33,%2041,%2046;&version=31;)).

The sheep are the saved, agreed, the inner being that Paul mentions in Rom.7 is the saved. The Goats are the unsaved, agreed, the natural body of Paul, as noted in rom.7 is the unsaved. Even Paul couldn't bring it into complete submission, it has a will of it's own. It is the vessel of dishonor that the seed is sown in (1 Cor.15)

As for "the" doctrine of ur, i cannot answer it's validity, but no doctrine negates "sound doctrine".

:nod: Agreed. So why preach the same message, if you know that the said message is in error (ref. Post #1 (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showpost.php?p=14765&postcount=1))?

I had no idea that post#1 reflected the ur views.

I appreciate your gentle appraoch, usually i get wacked over the head,[...]

:whistlin: CoreIssue . . . :whistlin:[/QUOTE]

I appreciate CoreIssue, he just doesn't have time to wade through my thoughts.

[CoreIssue]

I appreciate CoreIssue, he just doesn't have time to wade through my thoughts.

I just felt with Lucky replying you did not need both of us after you.

I agree with Lucky. Your first posting did, in fact, intentionally or not, say we are made up of two beings. Which is not true.

We are made up of two natures. A flesh and a spirit nature.

But, we are one and one only being, as in personage.

The spirit contains the essence of what makes us individuals. The flesh is our mechanism through which we interact with the physical world.

When born-again, we do not gain an inner being/personage. Our spirit is purged of its sin nature, changed.

But or flesh nature remains the same.

When the dead are resurrected, in the Rapture, they are rejoined with their earthly flesh. Not an new flesh, but the flesh they left.

Then, they and those that have not died, are taken, in totality, to Christ in the clouds. There our flesh, our earthly flesh we now live in, is changed. It is not new flesh, but flesh that is made new by purging it of its sin nature.

Purging of sin nature takes away all the imperfections. It makes the flesh eternal.

Not completely accurate, but kind of like taking an old computer, reworking the components to take all the bugs and problems out, and then reworking the housing into something that will endure anything.

Nothing new, as in materials or components. But new in design, function and durability. Still the same computer, but now a super computer. Both in circuits (spirit) and housing (body).

[vagabond]

Thanks core, very well explained. Please take no offense when i say you're too busy, i always appreciate your thoughts, even when i end up with a lump on my head.

I would agree with the "two" nature concept, however i'm still seeing the nature of christ as being completly separated from the nature of man, via the Word of God. As per post #11

[CoreIssue]

Thanks core, very well explained. Please take no offense when i say you're too busy, i always appreciate your thoughts, even when i end up with a lump on my head.

I would agree with the "two" nature concept, however i'm still seeing the nature of christ as being completly separated from the nature of man, via the Word of God. As per post #11
Christ had a flesh and spirit nature.

He set aside his divinity so that he functioned 100% as a human did.

His flesh was purely human flesh. It had the sinfree nature Adam did. Thus why he is the Second Adam.

Adam means Man. He was every bit human as we are human. He did not become something else when sin entered in.

What changed was the condition of his natures. They became tainted. But he never ceased to be human.

We are born with both flesh and spirit natures. They are in harmony.

When born-again, we still have flesh and spirit natures. But now they are not in harmony.

We are born with minds. The mind is the meeting and decision making place where the natues of the flesh and spirit meet, merge and cause us to act out decisions.

When in sin, our minds are largely in harmony.

But God placed a mechanism in our spirits. It is called the Law of Conscience. It knows right from wrong, that we need God and it drives us to make an eternal decision as regards God.

When our spirits are convicted, enough, we repent and are born-again. Over the protests of our flesh.

Now, flesh and spirit are no longer in harmony. They war with each other regarding following the desires of the flesh and the will of God. Our minds are in constant war and chaos over these things, far too often.

When we are resurrected, our flesh is then purged to be like our spirits. Then our spirits and flesh are again in harmony.

But an even greater harmony is then achieved. Now we are in harmony with God and he conforms us, body, spirit and mind. To Christ.

There is then absolutely no conflict or confusion.

Christ was fully man in the flesh. No different than you or I, except his nature was as Adam's upon creation. Meaning sin free.

He is fully God in his spirit. But his spirit functioned as a human one when on this earth. Again, without the sin taint.

So, his mind had conficts and temptations, as did Adam. But he did not give into them as Adam did.

I hope you can see this makes Christ, when on the earth, fully human.

Most assuredly when he ascended, he took up his divine powers, again. But his flesh remained human. And his mind remained the compete combination of his spirit and flesh natures.

That is why he is, at the same time, our God, King, Savior, Brother and all the rest. He is both at the same time.

But being God only comes from his divine Spirit. Being King, Savior and Brother comes from his humanity.

Hard to explain. That was a shot at it.

As the Bible says, only a Man could bear the sin of humanity. So, he could not be different from Man, when on the earth, or his sacrifice would have had no merit.

[eahaddix]

In 1 Cor.15 Paul talks about death and resurrection. He answers this very topic in detail:
The body that is buried is not the same body that is raised, but it is given a new body.

I agree that all believers are given a "new body" at the Rapture's resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:35-42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:35-42;&version=31;), Matthew 22:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2022:30;&version=31;), see also John 20:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:26;&version=31;)). However, your hermeneutical methodology is semantically equivocating different contexts of "new." Specifically, by definition, the word "new" can apply to different objects and/or a different condition of the same object (ref.def. (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/new)).

At the Rapture's resurrection, the dead are raised (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:51-52;&version=31;), 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:16-17;&version=31;)). The term "raise" refers to the reanimation of one's dead body with one's spirit (ref. James 2:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:26;&version=31;)), as demonstrated by the "raising" of Lazarus (John 11:38-44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011:38-44;&version=31;)), the holy men at Jesus's death (Matthew 27:50-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2027:50-53;&version=31;)), and Christ Jesus himself (Mark 16:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1-6;&version=31;), Matthew 28:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1-6;&version=31;), John 20:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1-8;&version=31;)).

Now, Christ Jesus is the most important example. Specifically, Christ Jesus is our resurrection model (ref. 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23, 47-49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:20,%2023,%2047-49;&version=31;)). And, when Christ Jesus appeared to the Apostles, he demonstrated that he possessed the same body (Luke 24:36-43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2024:36-43;&version=31;), John 20:24-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:24-28;&version=31;)), which was removed from his tomb (Mark 16:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1-6;&version=31;), Matthew 28:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1-6;&version=31;), John 20:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1-8;&version=31;)).

Hence, in light of the above, we observe that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) raises believers' dead physical bodies in order to transform their dead physical bodies. However, under your Scriptural interpretation, God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) reanimates the dead, yet God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) re-separates the dead from their reanimating spirits in order to give their spirits a new body. As a result, your Scriptural interpretation creates another unnecessary tautology.

As a result, regenerative transformation does not require any separation, otherwise a unnecessary tautology results.

What i'm seeing is, christians, as Paul in rom.7, have "two" natures warring against one another, these natures are separated at the coming of Christ, so that one is completly dominant in that person. A person is completly possesed by one nature or the other. Not having "two" as we now do.

But your assertion logically concludes with the same tautology. If one's bodily sinful nature is replaced through transformative regeneration, then no form of separation is needed.

He likens the image of the first body to a "seed" form and the image of the second as "glorified" (the glory of a seed is it's risen plant)

:wink: And? A seed contains a plant's embryo, which grows into the mature plant. This describes a developmental transformation of the same plant tissue, not two different systems of plant tissue.

At the rapture the voice of the Lord is heard by this inner being and it rises from the body (grave) that it has been dwelling in.

Nowhere does Biblical Scripture apply the imagery of raising people from the grave to the separation of the individual believer's "inner being" and "body."

The sheep are the saved, agreed, the inner being that Paul mentions in Rom.7 is the saved. The Goats are the unsaved, agreed, the natural body of Paul, as noted in rom.7 is the unsaved.

Nowhere does Biblical Scripture apply the imagery of dividing "goats" and "sheep" to the separation of the individual believer's "inner being" and "natural body."

I had no idea that post#1 reflected the ur views.

:hmm:Your line of thinking does not make any logical sense, except when viewed with a systematic theology centered on Universal Reconciliation.

Specifically, in order to harmonize the imagery of Matthew 25:31-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=31;) with the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, you redefine the separation of the saved sheep and unsaved goats as the separation of one's bodily sinful nature from one's godly spirit. After establishing this equation, you define this imagery as the Rapture, where the bodily sinful nature of all people are removed from them.

But how can a person possess saved and unsaved elements simultaneously? According to the dominant viewpoints on KingdomLife.com, the "sinful nature" is an indwelling demon, which commits sins through a person's flesh. Based on this viewpoint, you define the Rapture as the event which separates these indwelling demons from all mankind.

Yet, despite your intellectual efforts on this thread, the "sinful nature is a demon" doctrine is your doctrinal bottom line. Hence, you are unconcerned with committing any doctrinal errors or missing any such rapture.

[vagabond]

Hi Core and thanks a million, that was an excellent presentation, i got a lot out of that!

You mentioned:"We are born with minds. The mind is the meeting and decision making place where the natues of the flesh and spirit meet, merge and cause us to act out decisions."

Would you then say the mind is where the "prince of the power" of the air has his dominion in the unsaved.

Where apostle Paul says to "cast down" all thoughts and reasoning that puff themselves against the knowledge of God?

Where a man is lead into temptation via his own lustful desires?

[vagabond]

Hi lucky,

:hmm:Your line of thinking does not make any logical sense, except when viewed with a systematic theology centered on Universal Reconciliation.

Eric:Okay, but as i mentioned my doctrine on universal reconciliation, fits no other doctrine i have seen to date. "The soul that sinneth shall perish" They don't teach that to my knowledge, i do.
So, though i do see a form of ur, i'm confident it's not in harmony with the general doctrine of it.

Specifically, in order to harmonize the imagery of Matthew 25:31-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=31;) with the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, you redefine the separation of the saved sheep and unsaved goats as the separation of one's bodily sinful nature from one's godly spirit. After establishing this equation, you define this imagery as the Rapture, where the bodily sinful nature of all people are removed from them.

Or become them. Here's a better example of what i'm seeing:
The spirit of man receives the spirit of God and thus man's spirit is renewed.
The soul (mind) of man must also receive the same spirit to achieve salvation. (eternal life)
The physical body has a spirit of it's own and cannot receive the spirit of God, it must be changed by the renewing of the soul (mind). If the mind is changed the body will change.

But how can a person possess saved and unsaved elements simultaneously? According to the dominant viewpoints on KingdomLife.com, the "sinful nature" is an indwelling demon, which commits sins through a person's flesh. Based on this viewpoint, you define the Rapture as the event which separates these indwelling demons from all mankind.

Eric:Unless i have read something wrong Core also agrees that a person can possess the two elements, or atleast the two natures.

As for the dominant view points at kingdomlife.com, i am not in agreement with that theory as described above. They believe that "ALL" hu-men are children of God, born of his spirit. I disagree, God formed man from the dust of the ground, all other creatures that were made from the dust have a survival "instinct", i think that is the "spirit of the earth". I think that the humas man that God formed also had this "humas" spirit and though this humas man had a soul it was not awakened or enlightened, until God breathed into the humas man and the man "Became" a living soul. A different creature then just human. Eve was taken from Adam and made as a weaker vessel, Eve was easily deceived i think because she was more in-tune with the human nature then Adam. In anycase, when they partook of the forbidden fruit, they died their first death, the spirit that God breathed into them and made them "living souls", was quenched. The nature of sinful flesh became dominant in their minds and thus their bodies.

Today it is the breath of the Holy Spirit that revives the spirit of man and gives man "hope" for his soul. However, just receiving the Holy Sipirit itself is not enough to save the soul (mind). This Spirit must be "worked out", the concepts must be received by the mind. The bible is the framework the Spirit is the life.

Atleast that's what i'm seeing today, i try and keep an open mind to new doctrines that are bible based and in alignment with Love.

Yet, despite your intellectual efforts on this thread, the "sinful nature is a demon" doctrine is your doctrinal bottom line. Hence, you are unconcerned with committing any doctrinal errors or missing any such rapture.
[/QUOTE]

If i'm seeking for Christ to appear in my brother, if i make every effort to speak to him as if i'm addressing the vessel of the Holy Spirit, and if my prayer and faith is to have love and wisdom with "ALL", would that alone cause me to be "left" behind?

As far as doctrinal errors, i try and stay in a diologue mode, i know that i'm deceived and always try and admit it. However, i do desire the truth, even if it's not what i currently understand. If not, then i'm really messed up, and that's quite possible.

I haven't mastered using this board yet, sorry.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core and thanks a million, that was an excellent presentation, i got a lot out of that!

Thanks. And you are welcome.

You mentioned:"We are born with minds. The mind is the meeting and decision making place where the natues of the flesh and spirit meet, merge and cause us to act out decisions."

Would you then say the mind is where the "prince of the power" of the air has his dominion in the unsaved.

No. I would say he has dominion because Adam and Eve followed his lead and thus the unsaved are like minded with him, not directly controlled by him.

That give him an incredible ability to sway our thinking.
Where apostle Paul says to "cast down" all thoughts and reasoning that puff themselves against the knowledge of God?
Right. Adam took on pride and arrogance that was the basis for the fall of Satan.

Satan willing took it on. Adam and Eve willingly took it on. We inherited it from the two of them.
Where a man is lead into temptation via his own lustful desires?
Yes. It comes natural to us.

In the unsaved both mind and spirit is self centered and instant pleasure oriented.

In the saved the flesh remains that way, but the spirit is ever seeking to defeat the urges.

[eahaddix]

The spirit of man receives[...]

The physical body has a spirit of it's own and[...]

Can you provide Scriptural prooftexting for this doctrinal distinction?

I think that the humas man that God formed also had this "humas" spirit and though this humas man had a soul it was not awakened or enlightened, until God breathed into the humas man and the man "Became" a living soul.

Where does Genesis 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=2&version=31) state that Adam's body possessed a "humas spirit" before God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) breathed life into it (ref. Genesis 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%202:7;&version=31;))? If Adam's body possessed life before God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) breathed life into it, then you create another tautology, no?

In anycase, when they partook of the forbidden fruit, they died their first death, the spirit that God breathed into them and made them "living souls", was quenched.

Where does Genesis 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203;&version=31;) show Adam's non-"humas" spirit leaving Adam?

As for the dominant view points at kingdomlife.com, i am not in agreement with that theory as described above.

Well, with all due respect, I remain skeptical of this assertion. The act of switching between these two doctrinal stances would not be difficult, since these two doctrines function in a similar manner.

"The soul that sinneth shall perish" They don't teach that to my knowledge, i do.

I disagree. They believe that Satan and his demons, who sin through peoples' flesh, will experience eternal punishment.