the rapture

[Jessie]

need some help.

my son reads herbs page and herb thinks we will still be here
up until the mid trib.

I dont know how to show him why we wont.

[CoreIssue]

need some help.

my son reads herbs page and herb thinks we will still be here
up until the mid trib.

I dont know how to show him why we wont.
Mid Trib is the least accepted Rapture View. Way too many holes in it.

Here are some points that refute it:

Revelation 3
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

'Keep you from' is tereo ek, in the Greek. It means to not allow someone to be in what is being kept from. It does not mean protected in, taken out of or any variant of being within the issue. It means never to be allowed to enter it.

The Hour of Testing is the Trib, all of it. God does not test his Church. There is absolutely no point.

But, the world is tested by forcing them to become Trib Saints, take the Mark or try to avoid at all costs either decision.

To say the first half of the Trib is not logical. 1/3 of humanity dies during it, so that is definitely testing.

Revelation 4
4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

These are the 24 Elders from the 24 Divisions of OT Israel. They outfits even match the OT garb.

Only humans are called Elders. There are only one set of 24 in the whole Bible. To have crowns and thrones, rewards, they must be resurrected, glorified and rewarded. Thus, being at the First Seal, the Rapture has to be Pre-Trib.

There is absolutely zero mention of Church in Revelation. Even the phrases revert to OT style. This is the 70th Week of Daniel, which is upon Israel, showing the Church is gone.

Compare Revelation to the 70th Week of Daniel. Both open with the AC Treaty, both have the same Mid events and both end the same.

Church is gone, Israel has returned as covenant people.

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb is during the Trib. Which is why you see Church no where. The Bride is in seclusion.

She emerges, at the Second Coming, as Wife.

All according to the Jewish Wedding custom, Which covers 7 days (years).

Hope that helps.

[Jessie]

will pass it along! thanks.

[faith]

Mid Trib is the least accepted Rapture View. Way too many holes in it.

Here are some points that refute it:

'Keep you from' is tereo ek, in the Greek. It means to not allow someone to be in what is being kept from. It does not mean protected in, taken out of or any variant of being within the issue. It means never to be allowed to enter it.

The Hour of Testing is the Trib, all of it. God does not test his Church. There is absolutely no point.

But, the world is tested by forcing them to become Trib Saints, take the Mark or try to avoid at all costs either decision.

To say the first half of the Trib is not logical. 1/3 of humanity dies during it, so that is definitely testing.

These are the 24 Elders from the 24 Divisions of OT Israel. They outfits even match the OT garb.

Only humans are called Elders. There are only one set of 24 in the whole Bible. To have crowns and thrones, rewards, they must be resurrected, glorified and rewarded. Thus, being at the First Seal, the Rapture has to be Pre-Trib.

There is absolutely zero mention of Church in Revelation. Even the phrases revert to OT style. This is the 70th Week of Daniel, which is upon Israel, showing the Church is gone.

Compare Revelation to the 70th Week of Daniel. Both open with the AC Treaty, both have the same Mid events and both end the same.

Church is gone, Israel has returned as covenant people.

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb is during the Trib. Which is why you see Church no where. The Bride is in seclusion.

She emerges, at the Second Coming, as Wife.

All according to the Jewish Wedding custom, Which covers 7 days (years).

Hope that helps.
i am new here today...have some knowledge of end times events..but am wanting to understand more...

i feel pretty secure with a pre-trib rapture position...have prayed and studied and prayed some more for guidance, wisdom, and discernment--and have ended up pretty securely with a pre-trib view.

this post is very helpful in solidifying my position..but one thing that i can't seem to find solid scriptural evidence to relates to God's wrath. there are plenty of scriptures that say the church will not endure God's wrath during tribulation...is there any biblical evidence that puts God's wrath right out of the gate with the AC and the signing of the 7 year covenant? or is it supposed to begin mid-way through?

thank you!!

[CoreIssue]

God has expressed wrath at various times throughout history.

First, look at the meaning of wrath. Many really don't see its full meaning.

Here it is in the Hebrew when God's anger was shown to Moses over what Israel was doing below the mountain.
Strong's Number: 0639 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/browse.cgi?number=639&version=kjv) Original WordWord Origin@afrom (0599 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=599&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0639&version=kjv#Legend) Entry'aphTWOT - 133aPhonetic SpellingParts of Speechaf http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0639h) Noun Masculine Definition
nostril, nose, face
anger
Here it is in the NT prior to the Trib.

Joh 3:36 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=42.joh.en.nas.nt.gos+3:36&version=nas&st=1&sd=2&new=1&showtools=yes) "He who believes (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4100&version=nas) in the Son (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas) has (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=nas) eternal (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=166&version=nas) life (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2222&version=nas); but he who does not obey (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=544&version=nas) the Son (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=nas) will not see (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3708&version=nas) life (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2222&version=nas), but the wrath (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3709&version=nas) of God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=nas) abides (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3306&version=nas) on him." Strong's Number: 3709 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=3709&version=nas) Original WordWord Originorgefrom (3713 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3713&version=nas))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3709&version=nas#Legend) EntryOrge5:382,716Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechor-gay' http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3709g) Noun Feminine Definition
anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
anger, wrath, indignation
anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
of punishments inflicted by magistratesAs you can see it covers many shades of meaning.

Prior to the Bowls, you can see God's indignation and punishment in such as the 7th church. Which is subject to his punishment by being spit out into the Trib.

Christ owns and breaks the Seals beginning immediately in the Trib.

Sending the AC, in the First Seal, is a punishment of God to test and try those of the Trib, which Revelaton 3:10 tells us is a time for trial upon all Man on the whole earth.

Too many only see wrath as meaning God spewing out his anger in a forceful way upon someone. But it can mean a much milder issue as well.

With 1/3 of the earth's population dying in the first half of the Trib, it is hard to not see that has God's wrath in action.

Remember. Anger does not have to be acted out directly by the person who is angry. It can be acted our for them by their agents, even if the agent's desires and known freewill actions are used to accomplish it.

God knows what the AC will do. He withdraws the Holy Spirit, the Restrainer, to allow him to do it.

He removes the Church, which he must do to remove the Restrainer, and must do to fulfill Daniel, where he says the Trib saints will be handed over to Satan.

Multitudes of saints die in the first half of the Trib and are seen under the Alter.

The first half is not a peaceful time.

[faith]

yes..this makes sense..
i truly feel confident for many reasons that the pre-trib rapture position is what is biblically prophecized...that piece has always left a question mark in my head because perhaps reading interpretations that God's wrath begins mid-way through...

but..as you say the restrainer is removed before the AC confirms the covenant..and yes...so many die in the first half of the trib..you are right, it is not peaceful...

thank you!!

[Jessie]

apperently now hes saying that Gods wrath does'nt start till mid trib.
which is the AC changing. Does'nt Gods wrath start at the beginning?

[faith]

apperently now hes saying that Gods wrath does'nt start till mid trib.
which is the AC changing. Does'nt Gods wrath start at the beginning?

i might be misunderstaning you..
who is "he" saying midtrib?

[roman8]

I would like to know more about the rapture . Just recently went to see Jimmy De Young , it was a little over my head , but I did come away from the weekend with a litttle better understanding of it . Is there a reliable book that anyone could recommend ?

In my small group bible study , one guy doesnt beleive in the rapture at all. Very confusing to a new Christian like me self. :scratch:

[lighthouse]

http://www.according2prophecy.org/perhaps.html

Perhaps Today: The Imminent Coming of Christ

by Thomas Ice
The New Testament teaching that Christ could return and rapture His church at any-moment, without prior signs or warning (i.e., imminency), is such a powerful argument for pretribulationism that it is one of the most fiercely attacked doctrines by pre-trib opponents. Non-pretribulationists sense that if the New Testament teaches imminency, then a pre-trib rapture is virtually assured.






1 Corinthians 1:7-"awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,"

1 Corinthians 16:22-"Maranatha."

Philippians 3:20-"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;"

Philippians 4:5-"The Lord is near."

1 Thessalonians 1:10-"to wait for His Son from heaven,"

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18-"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

1 Thessalonians 5:6-"so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober."

1 Timothy 6:14-"that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Titus 2:13-"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;"

Hebrews 9:28-"so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

James 5:7-9-"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."

1 Peter 1:13 -"fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Jude 21-"waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20-"'I am coming quickly!'"

Revelation 22:17, 20-"And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, 'Come.'"

"He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming quickly.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."



It is significant that all of the above passages relate to the rapture and speak of the Lord's coming as something that could occur at any-moment, that it is imminent.

[lighthouse]

http://home1.gte.net/carriet/MillionsMissing.htm

MILLIONS MISSING ?!




As I'm sure you have heard by now, soon a dynamic event will take place
that will shock the entire world ! Millions of people around the world will
just "vanish" suddenly from this Earth ! It will cause great turmoil, confusion, and grief to those who are left behind !





THIS DAY IS UPON US == Are YOU ready ?

OR -- will YOU be one of those LEFT BEHIND to wonder where
everybody went ?

[lighthouse]

http://www.raptureready.com/vray7.html

Who Will Go When The Lord Comes?
By Ray Brubaker

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CALGARY PRESS reported that the show depicting the second coming of Christ, complete with worldwide catastrophes, resulted in hundreds of calls from frightened TV viewers.
The program was portrayed as originating from a New York television station's newsroom and reported such catastrophes as earthquakes, tidal waves and many other similar disasters.

Well, some day the return of our Lord will be a reality. It would almost be better never to have been born than to miss the event. Yet, if we understand the Scriptures correctly, there will be many who looked for our Lord's coming who will miss the event we call the "rapture."

As Basil Mowell writes: "Some believe that all who profess to be Christians will be taken. But our Lord's parable of the wise and foolish virgins who all went out to meet the bridegroom contradicts such an opinion." (PROPHETIC WITNESS)

A booklet entitled, MILLIONS MISSING, relates what many believe will happen. We're told: "The sudden removal of millions from the earth will bring about a mysterious world crisis; confusion, chaos, and panic such as this world has never known will engulf the whole earth! Scores of driverless cars will rush pell-mell down the highways piling up in horrible wrecks. Big trucks carrying tens of thousands of gallons of explosive gasoline and chemicals will wreck and cause fires and explosions that cannot be described in words. Buses and trains loaded with passengers will pile up--wrecked. Many giant airliners will plunge to the ground when the born-again pilots are removed from the controls! Death, misery, and confusion will be everywhere ! '

[lighthouse]

Where Will You Be After the Rapture?

By Dr. Raymond W. Barber

"And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. "And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."—Rev. 19:1–10.


http://www.swordofthelord.com/archiv...terRapture.htm

[lighthouse]

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretr...n-rapture.html

By Todd Strandberg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently--I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture.

The word “rapture” comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”

[lighthouse]

http://www.missedtherapture.com/

The Rapture - Were you left behind?
What you need to know!

The rapture may have already occurred; if it has not, it is about to happen. This site is dedicated to the ones left behind.

The world has been permanently altered by an event the magnitude of which has never been seen, the rapture of the church. On a day like any other day, millions of people unexplainably vanished from the face of the earth.

[lighthouse]

http://www.pawcreek.org/articles/end...ationPower.htm

The Rapture: The Greatest Demonstration of Sheer Holy Ghost Power

by Joseph Chambers


It is impossible to separate the power of the Holy Ghost from the Rapture and Resurrection of the Saints. If the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was clearly the Divine function of His Spirit, then our resurrection is even more the sovereign work of the same Holy Spirit. Apostle Paul said it plainly, "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:11) This verse is not only speaking of His resurrection but also our present resurrected life with a clear secondary meaning in relation to our coming resurrection. You cannot separate our present Spirit anointed life from our future Rapture and resurrection. It is all the work of His Holy Ghost in us, shedding forth the power of His resurrection. If you do not have that power working in you now, you cannot expect to receive some kind of infusion when the Son of God splits the sky.


The Rapture and the Resurrection


The Sheer Display of Holy Ghost Power



The Event Itself is Supernatural in Every Detail



The Mortal Will Put on Immortality




Graves Opened and Saints Appearing

[lighthouse]

I hear the sound
Of a mighty rushing wind
And it's closer now
Than it's ever been

I can almost hear the trumpet
As Gabriel sounds his horn
And at the midnight cry
We'll be going home

I look around me
I see prophecies fullfilled
Signs of the times
They're appearing everywhere

I can almost see the Father
Sayin' Son go get my children
And at the midnight cry
We'll be going home

Chorus:
When Jesus steps out
On a cloud to call His children
The dead in Christ shall rise
To meet Him in the air
And then those that remain
Shall be quickly changed
At the midnight cry
We'll be going home

I look around me
I see prophecies fullfilled
Signs of the times
They're appearing everywhere

I can almost hear the Father
As he says Son go get my children
And at the midnight cry
We'll be going home

Chorus:
When Jesus steps out
On a cloud to call His children
The dead in Christ shall rise
To meet Him in the air
And then those that remain
Shall be quickly changed
At the midnight cry
We'll be going home

I can almost hear the Father
As he says Son go get my children
And at the midnight cry
When Jesus comes again

At the midnight cry
When Jesus comes again


want to hear it?
click here
http://www.davidakinministry.org/midnightcry.htm

[lighthouse]

The Eastern Gate

The Eastern Gate Is The Most Important And Impressive Gate In Jerusalem. It Is The Only Visible Entrance To The City Of Jerusalem From The East. Christ Entered The Temple Through The Eastern Gate.


This Oldest Of All The Gates To The City Was The Only One Not Rebuilt By Suleiman The Magnificent In A.d. 1539-42. Monolithic Stones In The Wall Just Above Ground Have Been Identified As 6th Century Bc Masonry From The Time Of Nehemiah.


The Eastern Gate Was Walled Up By The Arabs In The Year 810. It Has Remained Closed Now For Nearly Twelve Centuries. The Jewish People Believe That The Gate Will Open When The Lord Returns To Jerusalem.








The Eastern Gate


I Will Meet You In The Morning,
Just Inside The Eastern Gate.
Then Be Ready Faithful Pilgrim,
Lest With You It Be Too Late.


I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
Just Inside The Eastern Gate
Over There...
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning Over There.
If You Hasten Off To Glory,
Linger Near The Eastern Gate.
For I'm Coming In The Morning,
So You'll Not Have Long To Wait.


I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
Just Inside The Eastern Gate
Over There...
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning Over There.
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
Just Inside The Eastern Gate
Over There...
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning,
I Will Meet You
In The Morning Over There.

[lighthouse]

http://www.joywell.org/Sermons/signsofcoming.html

SIGNS OF HIS COMING
INTRODUCTION
A. THE CHANGES IN THE PROPHETIC LANDSCAPE
1. A man who had been preaching Bible prophecy for over 60 years stood
before a conference similar to this one.
2. He said, "I began preaching on the signs of His coming sixty years ago.”
3. “Back then, there were very few signs that you could actually see.”
4. “Today they are everywhere.”
5. He said, “I’m no longer looking for signs.”
6. He said, “I am listening for sounds!” (Can I have an Amen!)

B. IT’S NO LONGER NECESSARY TO SEARCH FOR SIGNS
1. We don’t have to look very hard for signs anymore.
2. The signs of His soon return are everywhere.
3. We don’t have to look for signs anymore, we need to be listening.
4. We need to have our ears open for the trumpet of the Lord to sound.
5. We need to be listening for the voice of the archangel that will say to all of
us who know the Lord, “Come up here!” (Can I have an Amen!)

C. WHAT IS A PROPHETIC SIGN?
1. Nelson’s Bible Dictionary - A sign is that which points to or represents
something bigger than itself.
2. Signs are meant to identify or validate things.
3. When we refer to the signs of His coming we mean identifying marks that point
to His coming.

TEXT:
Matt. 16:1-3 (KJV)
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would show them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

I. DISCERN THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES

A. WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE SIGNS
1. The last time I went to Springfield, I rode with someone who doesn’t follow signs.
2. We went from NM to Springfield by way of Kansas, then we came back down to Tulsa, then we went to Springfield.
3. We would have made it much quicker and easier if we had followed the signs.
4. There are experts who know the signs of the stock market.
a) They know when the market is going to go up.
b) They know when the market is about to go down.
c) These signs tell them when to buy.
d) They tell them when to sell.
5. There are some who know the signs to predict inflation.
6. There are those who know the signs to predict interest rates.
7. There are those who know the signs to predict what a house will sale for.
8. There are those who know the signs to predict who will win elections.
9. But our world is short on those who know the signs of what God is doing.
(Can I have an Amen!)

B. THE JEWS OF JESUS’ DAY HAD BEEN GIVEN SIGNS
1. Micah gave them a sign.
2. Micah 5:2 prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
3. Daniel gave them a sign.
4. Daniel 9:25 prophesied the exact year that the Messiah would be "cut off."
5. It would happen 483 years after an edict was issued to rebuild Jerusalem.
6. David gave them a sign.
7. Psalm 22:16 prophesied that the Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.

C. THEY SHOULD HAVE READ THE SIGNS
1. They knew the birthplace of the Messiah – Jesus was born in Bethlehem.
2. They knew the timing of the Messiah
3. The edict that Daniel prophesied of was issued in 457 BC.
4. 457BC plus 483 brought them up to their current year.
5. They knew the manner of death of the Messiah
6. The method of execution at the time David wrote Psalm 22 was stoning.
7. The method of execution in their day was piercing on a cross.
8. Crucifixion was not even invented by the Romans until 700 years after David.
9. This is why Jesus said, “…can ye not discern the signs of the times?”

II. WHAT SIGNS ARE WE LOOKING FOR?

A. THERE ARE NO SIGNS WHICH FORETELL THE RAPTURE
1. TECHNICALLY, there are no signs which foretell the rapture.
2. You see, the rapture could take place at any minute.
3. The rapture became imminent when certain warnings of the NT were written.
4. The rapture could have taken place at any time SINCE the NT was written.
5. Since the rapture is imminent, there is nothing that had to happen first.
6. This means there WERE no signs and there ARE no signs that must precede it.
7. No signs ever had to be fulfilled before the rapture.
8. When Paul wrote 1Cor 1:7 "...awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord
Jesus Christ" the church was already waiting for the imminent return of Christ.
9. Philippians 3:20 "…we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;"
10. Titus 2:13 "...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the
glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;"
11. Hebrews 9:28 "...so Christ... shall appear a second time for salvation
without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."
12. James 5:7-9 "...the coming of the Lord is at hand. ...behold, the Judge is
standing right at the door."
13. 1Cor 16:22 mentions the word "...Maranatha."
a) Maranatha consists of three Aramaic words
b) "Mar" ("Lord"), "ana" ("our"), and "tha" ("come"),
c) It means "our Lord, come."
d) This term only makes sense in the context of an imminent return.
14. The rapture of the church could take place at any moment, it is imminent.
15. For nearly 2000 years the rapture of the church could have come at any moment.
16. There can be no signs for something that is imminent event.
17. There is no Biblical scenario for how things will look when the rapture comes.
18. But, there is a Biblical scenario for how things will look afterwards.

B. THERE ARE TWO PHASES OF CHRIST’S RETURN
1. Christ shall come FOR His saints, then He shall come WITH His saints.
2. He will come FOR His saints at the rapture.
a) John 14:3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again
and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
b) 1Cor 15:51-52 “…We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed."
c) 1Thess 4:15-17 “…the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which remain…”
3. He will come WITH His saints at the end of Tribulation.
a) Colossians 3:4 "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall
ye also appear with him in glory."
b) 1Thess 3:13 “…the coming of our Lord… with all his saints.”
c) Jude 14 “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
4. There will be a UNKNOWN and a KNOWN time of His return.
5. The rapture is an UNKNOWN time.
a) The rapture is imminent!
b) Matt 24:36 “…of that day and hour knoweth no man…”
d) Matt 24:42 “…watch therefore for you know not what hour your
Lord doth come…”
e) Mark 13:33 “…watch and pray for ye know not when the time is.”
f) The unknown day is the rapture.
g) We will not know when the rapture will come.
6. OTOH, after certain prophetic events there will be a KNOWN time of His return.
a) It will be so certain that people will be able to mark their calendar.
b) After certain prophetic events take place, they’ll know the day.
c) Rev 12 tells us Israel hides from the Beast for 3 ½ years.
d) Rev 13:5 tells us that the Beast could only continue 3 ½ years.
e) We know that it is the Lord Jesus Christ who conquers him.
f) 3 ½ years from the time the Beast takes over, Christ will come.
g) 3 ½ years from the time Israel goes into hiding, Christ will come.
h) 7 years after the rapture, Christ will come.
i) 3 ½ days after the two witnesses are slain, Christ will come.
j) People who miss the rapture can mark their calendar for His return.
k) It will be a KNOWN day.
7. You cannot have a KNOWN day and an UNKNOWN day on the same day.
8. The UNKNOWN and KNOWN day are two separate days.
10. The UNKNOWN day is the rapture.
11. The KNOWN day will occur at the end of the Tribulation.

C. WHICH ONE ARE WE LOOKING FOR?
1. We are obviously looking for the Rapture of the church.
2. The rapture of the church is the next thing on the prophetic timeline.
3. Before the Tribulation can come there must be the rapture.
4. Before the KNOWN day, there must be the UNKNOWN day.
5. But, there are no signs which were to precede the rapture.
6. How can we know if it is close?

[lighthouse]

D. SIGNS OF THE IMPENDING TRIBULATION
1. The Bible gives a clear and vivid picture of the Tribulation Period.
2. This is the period that comes after the rapture.
3. So, we lay out a model of how things will be after the Rapture.
4. Based upon that model, we can see whether or not we are getting close.
5. We can see if God is preparing the world for the Tribulation.
6. If the stage is being set for the Tribulation then the rapture is very close.
7. Remember that the Rapture precedes the Tribulation.
8. If the Tribulation is close, that means the rapture is even closer.
9. At a ball game you know it’s about to start when the players come on the field.
10. The players for the tribulation are the Jews.
11. For hundreds of years the Jews were outcasts.
12. They had no country of their own.
13. They could not have fulfilled the events of the Tribulation.
14. But, today they are in their homeland.
15. Coaches line up their players on the field to start a football game.
16. In like manner, God has lined up the players for the Tribulation.
17. The players are already out on the field.
18. The rapture is close.
(Can I have a good Amen!)

III. THE SIGN OF THE FIG TREE - ISRAEL

A. THE NATION OF ISRAEL HAD TO BE RE-ESTABLISHED
1. In many places the Hebrew Scriptures prophesy that the nation of
Israel will be re-established before the return of the Messiah.
a) Isaiah 11:10-12
b) Ezekiel 37:1-12
c) Amos 9:13-15
d) Zechariah 12:1-3
2. Jesus emphasized this as a sign in Matthew 24 when He told us to
watch for the rebudding of the fig tree, which is a symbol of Israel.
3. When that happens, He said, the generation that sees it "will not
pass away until all these things [the return of the Lord] take
place" (Matthew 24:34).

B. THE BALFOUR DECLARATION
In 1916, World War I was going badly for England. She was in a
desperate plight due to shortage of gun powder. Up until then, gun
powder had been made from nitrates taken from mines in Chile,
South America. But with German submarines controlling the sea
lanes, Britain was unable to obtain the raw material to make it.
At this time, Chaim Weizmann, a Jewish scientist, discovered how
to make gun powder from nitrogen taken from the air. Eighty
percent of the air we breathe is nitrogen! This changed the course
of the war.
In appreciation, the British government, told Dr. Weizmann to name
his reward. He requested that Palestine be declared the national
homeland for the Jewish people. Consequently, the Balfour
declaration was drawn up and signed on

C. THE HOLOCAUST
The Balfour agreement opened the way for the Jews to return to
their homeland, but not many returned. World War II brought
the holocaust and the Jews were anxious to have a home of their
own afterwards.

D. JEWISH INDEPENDENCE DAY
The Nation of Israel made its declaration of Independence on
May 14, 1948. It became an independent state and began
running it’s own affairs without British interference.
On the very first day of their independence, all of Israel's
neighbors declared war against them.
They had to fight them off, and amazingly, they won this first
war with practically no resources.
There have been several other wars fought and won by Israel.
They include:
The Suez Canal War of 1956 --
This was started by Egypt and her allies, but it resulted in
the loss of the whole Sinai Peninsula and the Suez Canal to
Israel. These were later given back.
The 6-Day War of 1967
Israel responded quickly to attack by her neighbors, and
occupied the Golan Heights and the West Bank. This was
an amazing war! Israelis destroyed the aircraft of their
hostile neighbors before they even had time to launch them.
They even knew which planes of their Arab neighbors were
decoys, and didn't bother to bomb them.

E. THEY ARE ON THE PLAYING FIELD AND READY FOR ACTION
1. Rev 7:1-9 mentions 144000 Jewish evangelists during the tribulation.
2. Rev 12 mentions a Sun clothed woman which represents Israel
3. Israel is a major player during the Tribulation and she’s ready to play.

IV. THE TECHNOLOGICAL SIGNS

A. MASS FATALITIES
1. According to Christ in Matt. 24:6 war will increase like birth pains.
2. Matt. 24:22 says if those days weren’t cut short no one would survive.
3. In a day when men still fought with spears, this was inconceivable.
4. Isa.13:8 says during the “day of the Lord” humans would “look
aghast at each other, their faces aflame.”
5. Isa.13:12 says survivors would be more scarce than pure gold of ophir.
6. Rev. 9:18 predicts 1/3 of the population will be destroyed.
7. There was no way such an event could have occurred before this century.
8. However, there were no weapons of mass destruction when John
penned Revelation.

B. MASS BROADCASTING
1. Rev.11:7 prophecies the death of the two witnesses.
2. It says the Antichrist will kill them.
3. Rev.11:9 says, the whole world "shall see their dead bodies.”
4. It says they will see these bodies for 3 ½ days.
5. That was impossible in John’s day.
6. At that time it tooks weeks and months to travel between nations.
7. How could every nation see this?
8. It was impossible before satellite television.

C. MASSIVE ARMY
1. Rev.9:18 prophecies an army of 200 million soldiers from the East.
2. During WWII there was less than 50 million soldiers in the whole war.
3. When John wrote this, there were barely 200 million people in the world.
4. No one could conceive of having an army that large.
5. Until the last decade, many thought Rev.9:18 was a misprint.
6. Today, China has an army of 200 million soldiers.

D. MASS CONTROL OF COMMERCE
1. Rev.13-16-17 prophecies a number which will control commerce.
2. When John wrote Revelation, this was inconceivable.
3. People bartered and traded much of the time without money.
4. Most people raised their own food.
5. There was no way to control what people bought, sold, and earned.
6. In a day when people knew nothing of electricity or of computers,
it was ludicrous to think that this could be done with a number.
7. Today, we live in a specialized society.
8. Most people can’t eat without McDonald’s and Burger King.
9. Most people can’t make their own clothes.
10. Most people can’t build their own shelter.
11. Most can’t stay warm without gas and electricity.
12. Today, most would not survive without public services.
13. If you were cut off because you didn’t have a mark, it would be a problem.
14. Today, they could control people with a number.

V. THE SIGNS OF MATTHEW 24 – THE BIRTHPAINS

A. FALSE CHRISTS
1. Matthew 24:11
2. Mark 13:6
3. Luke 21:8
4. 1Tim 4:1
5. There are usually 40,000 cases of "Jerusalem Syndrome" each year.
6. This is a short-term condition where tourists are convinced they
are Jesus or some other biblical figure.
7. We have many examples of false messiahs in our generation:
Charles Manson
Maharaja Ji
Jim Jones
Sun Myung Moon
The Dalai Lama- Tibet
Lord Maitreya
8. Most of us would not be deceived by these people
9. But thousands of people have obviously been led astray by them.

B. WARS
1. Matthew 24:6
2. Mark 13:7
3. People throughout history have had to live with wars and rumors of war.
4. In our generation we have had an almost constant preoccupation with them.
5. There are always several wars going on at various places in the world.
6. There have been as many as forty wars at one time in our lifetime.
7. World War I was called "The War to end all war."
8. It did not end war, it only taught us how to be more deadly.
9. World War II brought us into the age of nuclear weapons.

C. FAMINES
1. Matthew 24:7
2. Mark 13:8
3. Luke 21:11
4. The above verses mention famine as a factor characterizing the end times.
5. North Korea -
3.5 Million people have starved to death in North Korea.
6. Sudan -
1.3 million people have died from fighting and famine.
7. Ethiopia -
Drought and a poor harvest have left 800,000 people in need of famine relief in Ethiopia
8. You can’t turn your TV on without seeing the pictures of starving children around the world.

D. PLAGUES OR PESTILENCE
1. Luke 21:11
2. Rwanda: Four in five deaths in Rawanda last year were Aids-related.
3. Hospitals are in fear of the new Superbugs.
4. These are new strains of bacteria which are resistant to antibiotics.
5. There are new outbreaks of an Ebola virus that can destroy whole towns.
6. We’ve heard reports of a flesh eating Strep bacteria.
7. There is the ever growing threat of bio-chemical weapons.

E. EARTHQUAKES
1. Matthew 24:7
2. Mark 13:8
3. Luke 21:11
4. Last year, six major earthquakes claimed 20,000 lives.
5. Nov. 15, 1999 – a quake in Turkey killed 452
6. Sept. 21, 1999 - a quake in Taiwan, killed over 2,042
7. Aug. 20, 1999 – a quake in Turkey killed over 10,000
8. The World Almanac lists all known earthquakes of all times.
9. There number of large earthquakes has constantly increased this century.
10. Before 1900 there was an average 15 or 20 years between major quakes
11. Now, there are several major quakes every year.

CONCLUSION:

A. WAITING FOR DAD TO COME HOME
1. When I was a young boy, my dad used to come home at 4 in the afternoon.
2. There were times when I was happy to see him and other times when I dreaded it.
3. Sometimes I would get in trouble with my mother.
4. She’d say, “You just wait ‘til your dad gets home.”
5. Of course, I dreaded seeing his pickup come down the road on those days.
6. There were other times that we would be waiting to do something special together.
7. I would be anxiously waiting for Dad to come home.
8. What you’ve been doing has a lot to do with how you feel about Christ’s return.
9. Some of you might be embarrassed if Christ came tonight.
10. Some of you aren’t ready.

B. GET READY
1. I want to give you the opportunity to get ready tonight.
2. Would everyone please bow your heads…
3. Some of the Christians in this room have things in your
life that you’d like to get rid of before Jesus comes.
4. There have been times when you've thought, “I hope Jesus
doesn’t come back right now.”
5. I’m not trying to point fingers or to hurt your feelings.
6. I am not against you, we are on the same team.
7. There are some things you’ve been doing that aren’t productive.
8. You haven’t been serving God the way you know you
should, and I want to pray for you tonight.
9. Would you raise your hands if this is your circumstances?
10. (PRAY for God’s cleansing, strength, and direction for them)
11. There may be others who simply aren’t ready because you don’t know the Lord!
12 1John 5:13 “These things have I written unto you that
believe that you might know that you have eternal life.”
13. How many of you know!
14. How many would like to know?

[lighthouse]

PEOPLE GET READY
Crystal Lewis

Lord Im ready now
Im waiting for Your triumphant return
Youre coming so soon
This world has nothing for me
I find my peace and joy solely in You
Only in You
I want the world to see that
Youre alive and living well in me
Let me be a part of the harvest
For the days are few
Hes coming soon

People get ready Jesus is comin
Soon well be going home
People get ready Jesus is coming
To take from the world His own

There will be a day
When we will be divided right and left
For those who know Him
And those who do not know
Those who know Him well
Will meet Him in the air
Hallelujah
God is with us
Those who do not know
They will hear "Depart, I knew you not"
For my friends you see
There will be a day when well be counted
So know Him well, know Him well

People get ready Jesus is comin
Soon well be going home
People get ready Jesus is coming
To take from the world His own
People get ready Jesus is comin
Soon well be going home
People get readyJesus is coming
To take from the world His own

[lighthouse]

I Can Only Imagine
Words and Music by Bart Millard
© 1999 - Simpleville Music



I can only imagine what it will be like,
When I walk by Your side
I can only imagine what my eyes will see,
When Your Face is before me!
I can only imagine. I can only imagine.

Refrain
Surrounded by Your Glory, what will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you, Jesus? Or in awe of You, be still?
Will I stand in Your presence, or to my knees will I fall?
Will I sing Hallelujah? Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine! I can only imagine!
I can only imagine, when that day comes,
When I find myself standing in the Son.
I can only imagine, when all I will do,
Is forever, forever worship You!
I can only imagine! I can only imagine!


Refrain
Surrounded by Your Glory, what will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you, Jesus? Or in awe of You, be still?
Will I stand in Your presence, or to my knees will I fall?
Will I sing Hallelujah? Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine! I can only imagine!
Surrounded by Your Glory, what will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you, Jesus? Or in awe of You, be still?
Will I stand in Your presence, or to my knees will I fall?
Will I sing Hallelujah? Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine! I can only imagine!

I can only imagine!
I can only imagine!
I can only imagine!
I can only imagine!

I can only imagine,
When all I will do
is forever, forever worship You!
I can only imagine!

http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis2/imagine.html

[lighthouse]

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the
Thessalonians
5



1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Mt. 24.43 · Lk. 12.39 · 2 Pet. 3.10

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

[lighthouse]

CHRIST RETURNS MILLIONS MISSINGi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.enwc.net/lastnews.htm

CHRIST RETURNS



Millions Missing Around World
At 12:05 last night a telephone operator reported three frantic calls regarding missing relatives. Within fifteen minutes all communications were jammed with similar inquiries. A spot check around the nation found the same situation in every city. Sobbing husbands sought information about the mysterious disappearance of wives. One husband reported ". . .I turned on the light to ask my wife if she remembered to set the clock, but she was gone. Her bedclothes were there, her watch was on the floor . . . she just disappeared . . ." An alarmed caller from Brooklyn tearfully reported - ". . . My husband just returned from the late shift . . . I kissed him . . . he just disappeared in my arms . . ."
Less than thirty-five minutes after the first calls were received a well known television executive took to the air with the explanation of the mass midnight kidnapping. He asserted that the strange disappearance of millions last night was a biblical prediction that suddenly exploded into fulfillment. In determined syllables he spelled out what he called the 'rapture of the saints.' "Jesus Christ has returned to the earth and has taken His christian people as His bride . . . It has been forecast for centuries . . .My own mother spoke often of this day. We have been left behind. There is no hope. I have missed the only thing worth living for. I - like you - refused to believe in the literal coming of Jesus Christ."

All major TV and radio networks canceled late programs and have been operating on a round the clock news service. By 12:45 this morning mass hysteria had gripped the world. No other explanation has been offered as yet. To the millions left behind in the wake of this gigantic mystery one cold fact looms larger by the hour - "JESUS CHRIST HAS COME. HE HAS TAKEN HIS BRIDE TO BE WITH HIM FOREVER. THE WORLD AWAITS HIS NEXT MOVE."






World Leaders Call for UN Emergency Session

A Canadian official was the first of many world leaders to call for a special emergency session of the U.N. to discuss the new world crisis brought about by the mysterious disappearance of millions. Speaking over the CBC network he called for immediate steps to regain world confidence. He voiced the fear that as a result of this crisis - Russia would take immediate steps to launch an all out hydrogen war. He stated - "The world is tottering on its axis. A waiting world looks to the skies for an explanation. Fear and terror has blinded the eyes of men everywhere. Godless Russia will take advantage of this fear. She will strike in an effort to claim responsibility for this calamity. We must be prepared for an attack."
One hour after the broadcast - the official Russian news agency TASK - carried a report that the soviet presidium was contemplating a statement in effect that a new secret weapon was launched and is responsible for the mysterious disappearance. All armed forces in Russia have been alerted to stand by for orders. One correspondent reports unusual activity at three major missile launching sites in the Ukraine.

Two American planes crash landed on Russian soil - but no pilots were found. They are believed to be victims of the disappearance. Russia is prepared to use these crashes as an excuse to launch an attack on the west. There was no comment from Washington.




BULLETINS:
(Special to LAST NEWS)

Indonesia - Earthquakes have been rocking this nation every three minutes. Thousands have perished.
Australia - Earthquakes in other parts of the world have caused tidal waves over many parts of Australia.

Japan - Volcanoes are erupting all over Japan! Hot lava spews from the heart of the earth.

South America - Floods ravage entire cities. Coastal towns wiped out. Thousands perish.

Korea - Rock slides cause murderous avalanches. Hundreds perish.

China - Famine and pestilence continue to take their toll. Thousands die of starvation and fear.

Russia - Stars have been falling on the soviet territory causing much damage. Huge hailstones as large as grapefruit have been falling in the Ukraine.

Palestine - Thousands crowd the streets of Israeli cities. An air of expectancy has thousands on edge.

Egypt - Drought and famine have left the nation paralyzed.

Iran - Troops prepare for invasion from Russia.

Middle East - An alert has been sounded for all out war. Mass Russian troop movements on all borders. The bear is ready to move.

Hawaii - Residents fear something worse than a Pearl Harbor - Island is beginning to sink. Harbors report a two foot rise in all tides.

Canada - Great Lakes region alarmed and perplexed by sudden heaving of fifty foot waves in all lakes.

Poland - Thousands report terrifying signs and wonders in the skies. Reports are too numerous to deny.

Miami - Weather bureau reports sudden change in weather. Four feet of snow predicted.

London - British officials reveal student riots breaking out in every major city. Youth are worried by world conditions.

Los Angeles - Observatory reports the sighting of a large, foursquare star descending toward the earth. It is in collision orbit.

United Nations - A late report reveals a personality who claims he will solve the world problems that have suddenly burst forth. Many followers now claim he will be the world's new savior. 'Some are calling him the 'anti-christ.'



THINK on these THINGS
when they begin to SAY
PEACE and SAFETY
THEN COMETH
SUDDEN DESTRUCTION
(Read 1 Thessalonians 5:3)

[lighthouse]

Dear friends,
this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. (2 Peter 3:1-2)
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."(2 Peter 3:3-4)

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.(2 Peter 3:5-7)

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 Peter 3:8-9)

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.(2 Peter 3:10)

cleansing by fire." Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:1

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat But in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.(2 Peter 3:11-13)

And when you see all these things begin to take place stand up and lift up your heads, for your redemption is drawing near.(Luke 21:28)
If you listen closely you can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah

[Jessie]

i might be misunderstaning you..
who is "he" saying midtrib?

herb. I went back and showed cores post again how the rapture is first then the trib starts

[Jessie]

Hi lighthouse, good stuff!

[CoreIssue]

Yes, Herb is a Midder.

Lighthouse gave a ton of information to wade through.

Revelation 3:10 says the Church will not be in the time of testing. The resurrected, raptured, glorified an rewarded OT 24 Elders are there at the First Seal, kicking off the Trib.

So much information that is Pre-Trib.

[faith]

oh...HERB...
i was confused...i have seen his website...it is informative, but i have picked up on his rapture position..

i like the jewish wedding piece related to a pre-trib rapture scenario...

[CoreIssue]

onelove's post were moved here (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2700) because she was not answering verses that refuted the Shepherds Chapel cult doctrines being stated.

[n2thelight]

Where in the O.T. is the rapture taught?

Is the rapture different from the second coming,if so please explain?

If the rapture can occur at anytime why did Christ warn us about what had to happen before His return?

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Throughout this chapter,(Matt 24)was Christ refering to the rapture or His second coming in response to this question,if its the rapture why would He need to warn us about what was going to happen if we were not going to be here?

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What was Paul referring to in this verse(2:1) rapture or 2nd coming?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day will not come,rapture or 2nd coming?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Many use this verse to prove the rapture,but does not this verse say that Christ is decending,and does not verse 14 tell us that those who have already died(sleep)are coming back with Him so is this the rapture or the 2nd coming?

Is the rapture the same as the resurrection?

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

There cannot be anymore after the last one, can it? The trumpet here is the same one as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and the same one as in Matthew 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Jews and Gentiles! The Church] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:28-29)

[CoreIssue]

Where in the O.T. is the rapture taught?

Daniel 2
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%2012;&version=31;#fen-NIV-22085a)] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Clear statement of the First Resurrection beginning before the Trib begins. The Trib is the time of God's wrath.

But the bigger answer, why does the Rapture need to be taught in the OT at all? For what reason?
Is the rapture different from the second coming,if so please explain?
Yes. The Rapture is the beginning of the Wedding Supper. Read here. (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1698&highlight=wedding+custom)

At the Rapture the saints rise to Christ in the clouds and they all go to heaven. It is an event called Thief in the Night.

A Thief comes in secret. He comes in the dark. He does not want to be seen and is not seen.

Christ comes hidden in the clouds. The world does not see him.

Mat 24 tells us saints disappear. Christ is not seen. Mat 25 tells us the 5 Wise Virgins are taken at Mid Night. The Foolish are not ready and do not go.

The dead saints rise first to flesh. Then they and the living are snatched up to Christ in the clouds. All in the blink of an eye. The world sees nothing.

At the Second Coming the whole world sees Christ. He descends to the earth as he left. The Church comes with him, glorified. They are not gathered to him. They go immediately to war with the AC and his army. They do not leave.

So two very distinct events with two very different purposes.
If the rapture can occur at anytime why did Christ warn us about what had to happen before His return?
Doctrine of Immiency.

I never have agreed with it.

The Bible says Christ could return at any time HINGED on certain things happening first. That is what the Bible teaches.

All of those prophetic things have no occured. So the Rapture can be at any time. But the Second Coming cannot.

The Rapture is a time only known to the Father. The reasons you will find in the link I gave.

The Second Coming is at a time that can be calculated to the day once the First Seal/Two Witnesses/Rapture occurs. Add 7 years you have Second Coming. Add 3.5 you have Mid events. Add 3.5 5o Mid and you have Second Coming.

Only the Father knows cannot be talking about Second Coming. Impossible.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Throughout this chapter,(Matt 24)was Christ refering to the rapture or His second coming in response to this question,if its the rapture why would He need to warn us about what was going to happen if we were not going to be here?


Christ answered in order given. First, he gave the time line for the Second Coming. Plenty of time markers.

Then he gave the Rapture timing. Only the Father knows.

The events of history from his time to the Rapture are of value to the Church. It tells us a general outlook of events. But no date setting.

Remember this chapter was written to the Jews, not the Church. The warnings of Mid events are found again in Revelation. It is when the Woman (including the 144,000) flee to the place of safety.

Written in the 69th Week to Israel and connecting to the 70th.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

What was Paul referring to in this verse(2:1) rapture or 2nd coming?

Rapture.

Stop and think. If Second Coming they would not be concerned they missed it. The Lord would be in Jerusalem, physically.

But if the missed the Rapture, that meant they were not of Christ and doomed to the Trib.

Easy logic once you think about it.


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day will not come,rapture or 2nd coming?

Neither. But Rapture first.

We are in the Apostacy right now.

It says the Apostacy first, then the revealing of the AC. But the AC cannot be revealed until the Restrainer is removed. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit and does part of his restraining via the Church. So the Church has to go.

Also, in Daniel, in example, the saints are handed over to Satan. God is not going to hand over the Holy Spirit, in a saint's spirit, to Satan.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Many use this verse to prove the rapture,but does not this verse say that Christ is decending,and does not verse 14 tell us that those who have already died(sleep)are coming back with Him so is this the rapture or the 2nd coming?


He only descends to the clouds at the Rapture. At the Second Coming all the way to the earth.

At the Rapture the saints ascend to him. At the Second Coming they descend with him.

Thief in the Night versus visible to all Man as King as well. Only the father knows and time known.

Two events.
Is the rapture the same as the resurrection?
No. Resurrection means spirits returning to their flesh and the flesh returning to life.

Rapture means snatcthing away. It does not mean resurrection.

The Rapture occurs at the first event of the First Resurrection. Resurrection then Rapture.

The Rapture ofr the Church is a one time event. The Resurrection is all such events on the Day of the Lord, which begins at the Pre-Trib Rapture and goes to the end of time.

We see resurrection, during the First Resurrection, at the Rapture, the Two Witnesses at Mid, the Trib Saints at the Second Coming and the MK saints after the Second Coming, all the way to the end of time.

The Post-Trib Rapture doctrine falls flat on its face by demanding the only resurrection is at the Second Coming. No accounting for the MK saints.

Some try to put them at the Second Resurrection/White Throne. But that is false. The First is for the Blessed. The Second for the Damned.


I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

There cannot be anymore after the last one, can it? The trumpet here is the same one as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and the same one as in Matthew 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [Jews and Gentiles! The Church] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. (Galatians 3:28-29)

There is only one Last Trump of the Church Age.

But that is NOT the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation.

There are at least 52 trumpets in the Bible. The Week of Trumpets each had an opening and closing trumpet. A last trump for each.

Mat 24:31 is not Rapture. It is not Resurrection. It is covered in the OT.

It is the gathering of Living Israel to Christ at the Second Coming in Jerusalem.

There is no Church in that gathering. Church was Raptured 7 years before.

Israel is restored as covenant nation at the First Seal. Church is gone.

Replacement Theology is a gross false doctrine.

The covenant to Abraham can ONLY be fulfilled through his physical seed, the Jews. Not through Gentiles.


Don't confuse Israel and Church, covenant wise.

[n2thelight]

Hello Core

I don't see Daniel 12 as a clear sign of the first resurrection,but while on the subject of the resurrection,does not this event happen after the trib?

Please show verses that state the rapture,resurrection happens before the trib.

As far as why does the rapture need to be taught in the O.T.,an event of this magnitude would have been shown as an example to us in this generation,of the end

Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

I did read your post on the wedding customs,but here is what I don't understand,you say that the church is seperate from Israel,yet you give me an example of a Jewish custom,how can this fit if they are seperate?

Now lets talk about this thief in the night,I really don't feel that this can be seen as a rapture verse for the simple fact that Christ said we are not in the dark that this day should over take us

1 Thessalonians 5


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Now I don't no how you get a rapture out of this,the thief only comes for those not in the light.

You say that Christ comes hidden in clouds and the world does not see Him,yet here in this verse it says every eye will see,

Revelation 1:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+1:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Revelation+1&version=9)
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So what I need now is for you to show me a verse where Christ comes hidden in the clouds

Where in Matt 24 do the saints disappear and as far as Matt 25 I see this as the wise being ready when Christ returns (2nd coming)ie not in darkness but in the light

Now about the dead rising first,I feel the dead are already risen which is why as Paul stated the living cannot precede the dead,to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord

The dead saints returning to flesh is also not scriptual, the Word says that the flesh returns to dust,and I don't think we will ever need it again for we will not be in flesh bodies we will be as we were in the beginning(before this earth age),

Job 38:7 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Job+38:7&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Job+38&version=9)
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who were these sons of God?I think it was us before satan decided he wanted to be top dog,do you think they had flesh bodies?

And another point is the fact that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

1 Corinthians 15:50 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15:50&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+15&version=9)
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now please tell me how you come to the conclusion that Matt 24 is written to the Jews,and while on this why do you seperate the Church from the Jews,once we come to Christ are we not all one body?

1 Corinthians 12:13 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+12:13&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1 Corinthians+12&version=9)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:16 "And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Ephesians 2:17 "And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."

Ephesians 2:18 "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father."

Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;"

If read with understanding there is no way you can seperate the Church from the Jews

Now Im lost on your point of iminent return,simple point Christ himself said that certain things must happen before He returned,now can you please show where He said the rapture could happen at anytime

Why do you feel the restrainer is the Holy Spirit,I feel that the restrainer is Michael

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

and another point is the fact that when we are delivered up the Holy Spirit will speak through us,how can this happen if He is not here

Mark 13:11 (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Mark+13:11&version=9) (Whole Chapter) (http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Mark+13&version=9)
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost

Do you no what hour this is speaking of?


You say that post tribbers fall on their face not accounting for the MK saints,I beg to differ,during the milennium there will be no flesh,when Christ returns the age of flesh will be over,never to be repeated

Now about your last trump argument,I can't get with that at all,so i'll just leave that alone

[CoreIssue]

It took a couple of posts, but you are caught.

n2thelight is onelove, who is banned.

So, not only preaching but lying as to one's identity.