What happened to Jesus after He said, It is Finished?

[Ruth]

What did Jesus do once He said It is Finished on the Cross and the curtain was torn in the temple and the dead come out of their graves?

Where was Jesus for those three days? He said He would be in the belly of the earth like Jonah. What did He do there?

Some things we know didn't happen -
1. He didn't suffer any more as when He said "It is Finished" the price was paid - the price was paid with His precious shed blood.

and what did happen -
2. He tasted death but He was victories over it so it was His body in the tomb but His spirit was free to go to those in Paradise and free them and take them to Heaven. "Death, where is your sting?"
3. On the third day, He resurrected His body and appeared to Mary.

Okay Coreissues - lets pick it up from there - add what is missing for me?

[CoreIssue]

What did Jesus do once He said It is Finished on the Cross and the curtain was torn in the temple and the dead come out of their graves?

Where was Jesus for those three days? He said He would be in the belly of the earth like Jonah. What did He do there?

Some things we know didn't happen -
1. He didn't suffer any more as when He said "It is Finished" the price was paid - the price was paid with His precious shed blood.

Verse please to back this assumption? Same demand you placed on me.

Christ finished the penalty payment by dying with our sins on him.

But WHERE does the payment of sin put one? In Hell, where Death reigns.

Christ complete the payment. He did not pay part only.

Acts 2
24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Please explain why this verse is false. You say it is.

The agony of death is found in Hell, isn't it? Were the saints in Paradise in agony?

No. That does not make Christ sinful. No, it does not say he did not pay the full price on the Cross. But yes, it says the penalty of sin, which penalty he took on himself, puts one in Hell.

Death was not the full price. Death and descent into Hell are. Death and Hell are related. They come as a set.

OT saints didn't go to Hell because they were sin free, but because they were saved from it by the promise of Christ.

Christ was not saved from Hell because he paid our penalty and went there for us. That is the complete package, not just death.

But death could not hold him, thus Hell could not justy keep him.

It is finished meant I have died and now I descend.

And explain how, if he did not go to Hell, this can be true.
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428d)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
He preached to ALL of them. Not just those in Paradise.

and what did happen -
2. He tasted death but He was victories over it so it was His body in the tomb but His spirit was free to go to those in Paradise and free them and take them to Heaven. "Death, where is your sting?"

Verse please. I gave you verses that said he went to Hell and preached to ALL of them. And to those in Paradise. He preached to ALL of them.

3. On the third day, He resurrected His body and appeared to Mary.

Okay Coreissues - lets pick it up from there - add what is missing for me?

I already posted the verses. Hope you remember them.

He told her not to touch him because he had not ascended to the Father yet. He looked like a gardner, meaning in his resurrected sacrificial body.

He ascended, and as the OT High Priest carred to blood into the Holy of Holies and presented it to God for sin forgiveness, Christ presented his body and blood to the Father for sin forgiveness.

In neither case was the substitutionary atoning blood accepted by God until offered up to him in his prescence.

Christ, in Hell, was in death. God could not go to that unclean place to accept a sacrifice.

Christ, in Paradise, as well, was still in an unclean place.

But, when Christ ascended, he was in a clearn place where the Father could accept the offering.

Then, and only then, was Christ glorified.

Remember, if the OT Temple was unclean, God would not enter.

And we, to be Temples of God, have our spirits cleaned, so the Holy Spirit can enter and dwell.

The whole process is laid out in the OT Temple.

The Lamb was spotless. The High Priest was spotless.

The blood was shed as a sin price. But it had no effect until presented to God in His clean place. He would not accept it anywhere else.

We enter the grave with Christ. Grave also means Hell, in the Greek.

We did not enter the dirt grave with Christ. We entered our just place in Hell with him. But because he took our sin upon him, when he defeated death and Hell, he defeated it for us as well, and we rose with him and went to the Father.

Full cycle. Complete meanings.

Where did the sin Christ paid for go if not into Hell?

[Ruth]

But WHERE does the payment of sin put one? In Hell, where Death reigns.

Christ complete the payment. He did not pay part only.

Quote:
Acts 2
24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Please explain why this verse is false. You say it is.

The agony of death is found in Hell, isn't it? Were the saints in Paradise in agony?

Why do you keep saying that I am denying this verse - I am NOT!

Our faith is in the reserrection. I have never, never, never, never, never, never said anything about denying the ressurrection.

Before we go on - can we put that to rest? Please?

[CoreIssue]

Why do you keep saying that I am denying this verse - I am NOT!

Our faith is in the reserrection. I have never, never, never, never, never, never said anything about denying the ressurrection.

Before we go on - can we put that to rest? Please?
OK.

Now see what I am getting at.

You SAY our faith is in the Resurrection, but then you also SAY it is all complete in the cross.

See what I am getting at? Paid or not it says we cannot be cleansed from sin without it.

If all complete in the cross, nothing else is needed. But, if the resurrection is needed, then the complete process to cleanse us from our sins in not complete in the cross.

The payment for sin is one thing.

The application for cleansing is another.

If we agree on that then lets move on to you telliig men what the verses I posted about preaching to those in Hell and Paradise, agony of death and such mean.

Those are key in ironing out what we are talking about, I believe.
http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[Ruth]

It doesn't seem that we can discuss this as a conversation of mutual respect.
You are making assumptions about my salvation and my theology that are totally uncalled for.
I don't think we need to continue the conversation. I thought we could have a discussion with mutual respect to clarify where we differ but you are are making it personal and trying to tell me what I think - and where I am wrong rather than having a conversation and sharing.

You can close this thread.

[CoreIssue]

It doesn't seem that we can discuss this as a conversation of mutual respect.
You are making assumptions about my salvation and my theology that are totally uncalled for.
I don't think we need to continue the conversation. I thought we could have a discussion with mutual respect to clarify where we differ but you are are making it personal and trying to tell me what I think - and where I am wrong rather than having a conversation and sharing.

You can close this thread.
:eek: Where did I say a single word about your salvation being in question? I didn't.

How we see these points is not an issue of salvation. Just understanding.

I have simply asked you, several times, to explain how certain verses fit into you doctrine since you reject how the fit into mine.

I have shown you no disrespect. Just questioned your position as you have mine.

You have me completely stunned here. :shrug:

[InTheWind]

I have shown you no disrespect. Just questioned your position as you have mine.

You have me completely stunned here. :shrug:


I was thinking the same thing. :scratch:

[CoreIssue]

I have shown you no disrespect. Just questioned your position as you have mine.

You have me completely stunned here. :shrug:


I was thinking the same thing. :scratch:
I hope Ruth realizes that and comes back.

I don't like misunderstandings.

[Ruth]

Why do you keep saying that I am denying this verse - I am NOT!

Our faith is in the reserrection. I have never, never, never, never, never, never said anything about denying the ressurrection.

Before we go on - can we put that to rest? Please?
OK.

Now see what I am getting at.

You SAY our faith is in the Resurrection, but then you also SAY it is all complete in the cross.

See what I am getting at? Paid or not it says we cannot be cleansed from sin without it.

If all complete in the cross, nothing else is needed. But, if the resurrection is needed, then the complete process to cleanse us from our sins in not complete in the cross.

The payment for sin is one thing.

The application for cleansing is another.

If we agree on that then lets move on to you telliig men what the verses I posted about preaching to those in Hell and Paradise, agony of death and such mean.

Those are key in ironing out what we are talking about, I believe.

http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif


The payment for our sins is on the cross. Our hope for our eternity is in His ressurection.
There is no payment being made in the ressurection. When He said "it is finished" - that is when our sins were forgiven and payment made. He died for us. With His payment - those who received His free gift of that payment would not need to make payment for their sins.

John 19:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=19&verse=30&version=9&context=verse)
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

James 1:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=1&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth deathSin is completed in death - the payment was completed in death

The reward was in the ressurection and our hope is in the ressurection.

Our hope for our eternity is in His victory over death in His ressurection.
When the veil in the temple was torn at the same time as His death - that is when the barrier that had been made between man and God when Adam fell - was removed. Immediately the others were ressurected as He was and the work was done.

Matthew 27: 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

[CoreIssue]

You are just plain wrong.

Yes, the cross paid for the sin.

No, our sins were NOT forgiven on the cross. The sin price has to be offered to the Father, before his throne, on our behalf, before our sins are forgiven.

You totally are not seeing the shadow type of the OT Temple.

The priests shed the lamb's blood for sin. But it was not effective until taken into the Holy of Holies and present to the God, on the Throne of the Ark.

It is finished. That is your read in as to the meaning. It doesn not say the total process was forgiven.

Christ did not overcome death until he resurrected. Life came in the resurrection, not the death.

His death bore the sins of ALL mankind. But it is ONLY effective for those to whom Christ pleads our case to the Father.

Christ came for ALL Man, not just some. He died for ALL Man, not just some. But the blood only comes to those to whom the Father grants it it, and only to whom Christ offers it for.

Paul tells you that if Christ had not resurrected we would be in death for eternity.

Christ says he is the resurrction and life. That is not the cross.

Christ ascended to Heaven to present his sacrifice. He could not do that in death.

Christ was glorified in Heaven. He was not gloriifed in death.

Christ is our High Priest. Not a High Priest in death.

Christ sends the Holy Spirit, with the blood. He could not do that from death.

The OT Temple was given for a reason. Every aspect of the blood sacrifices speaks of Christ and forgiveness of sin.

The process was not finished until offered to God.

The Lamb had to be without blemish. When it died sin and death figuratively was taken upon it.

The High Priest had to be purified before he could go before God. Christ was pure AFTER he defeated death. He descended to Hell because sin and death were upon him.

The High Priest had to present the offering to God before it was accepted. He had to be pure until completed. Christ said not to touch him because he had not gone to the Father, yet. He was the pure Lamb and the pure High Priest, having defeated death.

When he returned, glorified, he said touch him. That is because the process was complete.

He forever remains the pure High Priest and Lamb. Now, all he has to do is tell the Father he wants his blood effective on those as they repent.

So, yes, the offering for sin was finished on the cross. But no, the full sin forgiveness process was not complete until he gave the offering, to the Father, on our behalf.

One for one correlation with the OT Temple.

What you are saying renders the Temple shadow type in error. And makes Christ saying don't touch me until I go to the Father a meaningless statement.

[Ruth]

1. When was the resurrection?
2. Why were the other people able to rise up from the grave and the veil torn when He said It is Finished?

[CoreIssue]

1. When was the resurrection?
Three days after the Cross.
2. Why were the other people able to rise up from the grave and the veil torn when He said It is Finished?
Same reason Lazarus, the girl and OT people rose up. They were resusitated, not resurrected.

The Bible only uses resurrected when dealing with eternal rising to life, not temporary where someone returns to their earthly exisitence.

Christ is the First Resurrected and so far the only one.

We will either go in the Rapture or in the First Resurrection. At that time all will move from earthly flesh to glorified flesh.

The Second Resurrection brings the damned back to earthly flesh. They will spend eternity in the Lake.

Rose, rise and such terms are used for Lazarus and the others. Not resurrected.

The people of Jerusalem recognized those that rose up. That says they were recently dead.

[Ruth]

1. When was the resurrection?
Three days after the Cross.
2. Why were the other people able to rise up from the grave and the veil torn when He said It is Finished?
Same reason Lazarus, the girl and OT people rose up. They were resusitated, not resurrected.

The Bible only uses resurrected when dealing with eternal rising to life, not temporary where someone returns to their earthly exisitence.

Christ is the First Resurrected and so far the only one.

We will either go in the Rapture or in the First Resurrection. At that time all will move from earthly flesh to glorified flesh.

The Second Resurrection brings the damned back to earthly flesh. They will spend eternity in the Lake.

Rose, rise and such terms are used for Lazarus and the others. Not resurrected.

The people of Jerusalem recognized those that rose up. That says they were recently dead.

First, maybe we need to define the term resurrection - using scripture to define the term please.


1. How do you come to your conclusion (using scripture please) that he was resurrected three days later? Are you saying that He was dead for three days?
2. How do you come to your conclusion that they were 'ressessitated rather than ressurected' where is the scripture that supports that and don't you think this is different than Lazurus as it is tied in with His words It is finished? Please use scripture to support your statements - I did.
3. You did not answer the question about why the veil was torn when He said those words. And please use scripture to support your statements. I did.

[CoreIssue]

First, maybe we need to define the term resurrection - using scripture to define the term please.


1. How do you come to your conclusion (using scripture please) that he was resurrected three days later? Are you saying that He was dead for three days?

His body was most assuredly dead. His spirit was not. I reject the notion of Christ suffering spiritual death.
Here are but two verses that he died and remained in death for 3 days.
Matthew 12
38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28706a)]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

2. How do you come to your conclusion that they were 'ressessitated rather than ressurected' where is the scripture that supports that and don't you think this is different than Lazurus as it is tied in with His words It is finished? Please use scripture to support your statements - I did.

First, resurrected is never used except for eternal rising from the grave. I cannot post verses to prove that, since it is a negative proof issue.

But you can go to Bibles link, at the top of the page, and search resurrected. You will not find it used in any other context.

Next, concerning those that rose when he died. They were known to the people of Jerusalem, meaning reason deaths.
Matthew 27
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
A bit of logic here. How would anyone know they had raised if they didn't know who they were, in fact?

Further, Christ is the First Resurrected, not those saints.

First, it is not complete on the cross:
1 Corinithians 15
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
3. You did not answer the question about why the veil was torn when He said those words. And please use scripture to support your statements. I did.[/quote]
Clearly state, it hinges on his resurrection. And I laid that out before, using the OT Temple shadow issues.

Next, Christ is the first raised, thus none were before him.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
And how is resusitated different from resurrected?

First is eartly flesh, as with Lazarus, and will die again.

Second is eternal:
35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28748e)]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28752f)] bear the likeness of the man from heaven. 50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28757g)]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28758h)] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly said. Christ is first, we will be in turn, future, in the First Resurrection, which begins at the Rapture and ends at the end of the Day of the Lord.

Second follows, after the destruction of this earth and these heavens, at the White Throne Judgement. And is for the damned. Eternally living in the earthly flesh in the Lake of Fire.

All will resurrected. But only Christ has resurrected, so far.

[Ruth]

The very fact that you have now differentiated between His body and His spirit means we are indeed closer to agreeing than originally thought.

I have been speaking about His spirit the entire time because it is His spirit that was working the entire time. And when He did ascend -- He took the captives with Him - how do you explain this scripture using your logic.

Ephesians 4:7-9 (New International Version)

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29265afen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29265bfen-NIV-29265b)] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29266cfen-NIV-29266c)]?

[CoreIssue]

The very fact that you have now differentiated between His body and His spirit means we are indeed closer to agreeing than originally thought.

I have been speaking about His spirit the entire time because it is His spirit that was working the entire time. And when He did ascend -- He took the captives with Him - how do you explain this scripture using your logic.

Ephesians 4:7-9 (New International Version)

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29265afen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29265bfen-NIV-29265b)] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-29266cfen-NIV-29266c)]?
He is glorified, now, not those saints.

He told the Apostles to touch him, that spirits don't have flesh and blood as he does.

The verses I posted stated he is resurrected. His body was gone from the tomb.

Posting this passage does not refute the passages I posted. They do work hand in hand.

Paul posted the statement that the resurrection of the saints was future long after this event occurred.

His body went into the tomb. His spirit went into the Pit. He preached to the spirits, there.

He rose with the saints, who were in Paradise, because now, when he reached heaven, with the blood offering, they could be cleansed from their sins.

There is no problem reconciling this.

But you have yet to address the OT Temple issues.

Those who were resusitated did not leave their bodies. That would have been resurrection.

As with Lazarus, his spirit slept in his dead body until resusitated. Death has several meanings, including types of death one can be revived from.

[Ruth]

What is there about th OT Temple issues that you feel I have not addressed?
I think that we disagree and we will agree to disagree. I have answered your questions as well as you have answered mine.

It is time to let it go and move away from the topic until one of us has a better way to present our sides in order to have the other person hear what they are saying.

[CoreIssue]

What is there about th OT Temple issues that you feel I have not addressed?
I think that we disagree and we will agree to disagree. I have answered your questions as well as you have answered mine.

It is time to let it go and move away from the topic until one of us has a better way to present our sides in order to have the other person hear what they are saying.
What part? None.

I see not one comment on the OT Temple.

What part of Christ being the First Resurrected isn't clear? How can others have done so, before, and he be the first?

Do I need to post the verses where he said he had flesh to the Apostles?

Where are your verses showing any resurrected saints before Christ resurrected? How can Paul say the resurrection is future, for us, if there already had been resurrections.

1 Cor, which I posted, says we will be glorified, not that any are already glorified.

Really, you have said nothing. Have not commented on the verses and passages I posted. Leaping off to other passages with your spin on them isn't an answer.

Leading to Heaven, at the resurrection, does not mean they were resurrected. Being spirit does not mean Christ was spirit.

I repeat, Paul says our resurrection is future. I posted verses that says Christ rose 3 DAYS after the cross, which knocks out any resurrection prior to that.

You are not addressing anything. Just posting comments without backing.

And no, posting a verse that says finished does not define finished.

Silence on the OT Temple isn't an answer. You cannot cover it over with verses with assumed meanings attached.

Yep. We disagree. And to be honest, your position is not going to find support from any Biblical Christians.

OK. Moving on. :tiphat:

[Chrystalwuzhere]

1 Peter 3:18-20 sheds additional light on what Jesus did after He said, "It is finished."


1 Peter 3:18-20:

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.