The pit (question)

[Jessie]

Moved because it became a MHz topic.

Core said:

NIV and NASB manuscripts translate as jackelsThe Pit goes deep into the earth. And its entrance is in the river Euphrates.

could you expound on this? what exactly is the pit, its purpose and why is the entrance in the Euphrates?

does'nt it say it will be opened?

[MHz]

Hi Jessie,
The references I go by four angels are unbound there, that would seem to be a pit. It doesn't specify that the angel from the pit came from that very pit, nor does it say whether a 'new pit' will hold Satan for the thousand years. If the place of the 5th trump is the same places as 4 are unbound then that shouldn't leave anybody unawares where the locusts have come from. If they come from another palace then there is more than one pit. The verse I read only says that Satan will be cast to the Earth .
Later

[CoreIssue]

Core said:

NIV and NASB manuscripts translate as jackelsThe Pit goes deep into the earth. And its entrance is in the river Euphrates.

could you expound on this? what exactly is the pit, its purpose and why is the entrance in the Euphrates?

does'nt it say it will be opened?
The land refered to will be barren and a place where demons and the less desirable animal life will dwell, isolated from humans.

The Pit is a hole that goes extremely deep into the earth. It is called the Abyss/Bottomless Pit, which means depth of great distance or measure.

We see one chamber described off of it as Hell, where fallen angels and men are kept until Judgement Day in a lake of fire.

Satan is cast down and opens the Pit. Note at the same time this happens the Euphrates is dried up for the 2 Mil man army to cross, the 4 demons are released, who are chained in the Pit in the river.

Being chained in the Pit is thus to be chained in the river.

If the river flow is not stopped, the water would flow into the Pit. it also uncovers the Pit for opening.

Christ died and because the sin be bore descended to Hell. But Hell could not hold him because he had not sinned. But while there he preached to all the spirits held there and after led the saints spirits out of the Pit, and finally to Heaven, when he rose from the Pit.

All ties together very nicely. Trying to divide up the issues into different Pits and such does not make sense. No evidence to back that.

[Jessie]

not sure what you meant by the sin he bore going to hell.
almost sounded like you were saying Christ went into hell or was it the part that was paradise?

curious why the river would need to be dryed up to open the pit.
and wonder if a great earthquake would do the job? one that came from the depths of the earth?

also, you mentioned being chained in the river...
would this be in the river or beneath the river since the opening to the pit is there.

and these demons what are they? are they the ones who toment people with stingers in their tails?

[Jessie]

oh yes, I almost missed this, when you mentioned the land will be barren ect,
is this on top of the earth or underneath?

[CoreIssue]

not sure what you meant by the sin he bore going to hell.
Christ took the repsonsibility for sin payment from us to himself. All who will pay for sin go to Hell upon death.

So Christ had to go to Hell due to the our sins.

But Hell could not hang onto him, because he never sinned.
almost sounded like you were saying Christ went into hell or was it the part that was paradise?
He went to Hell. But Hell could not hang onto him.

He preached to all in the Pit, both Hell and Paradise.

Many have the idea that just dying on the Cross ended the sin payment. It did not. Sin goes to Hell.
curious why the river would need to be dryed up to open the pit.
It served multiple purposes. It allowed the Pit to remain open, continuously, without the water pouring in. And allowed the 2 Mil man army a way to cross over fast and easy.

and wonder if a great earthquake would do the job? one that came from the depths of the earth?

Could be. There wa a huge quake also at Mid.

also, you mentioned being chained in the river...
would this be in the river or beneath the river since the opening to the pit is there.

I believe it means in the Pit, since the mouth of the Pit is in the river.

and these demons what are they? are they the ones who toment people with stingers in their tails?

The locusts are demons. But the 4 demons are not with the locust event. They are ones that go out to China and tempt them to attack.

[MHz]

Hi Core

Satan is cast down and opens the Pit. Note at the same time this happens the Euphrates is dried up for the 2 Mil man army to cross, the 4 demons are released, who are chained in the Pit in the river.
Satan opens the pit at the 5th trump, also called the first woe, and the 7th trump does not sound untill after the end of the second woe, the vials are the 3rd woe and it is the vials when the river is dried up. If the 1st is said to be past before the 2nd woe starts and the 2nd woe is said to be past before the 3rd woe starts then the 'pit' has been open for 'some time' before the vial is poured out as a preperation for the kings of the east, which you say is China. The 200mil have accomplished what they are supposed to do before the start of the third woe.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core

Satan is cast down and opens the Pit. Note at the same time this happens the Euphrates is dried up for the 2 Mil man army to cross, the 4 demons are released, who are chained in the Pit in the river.
Satan opens the pit at the 5th trump, also called the first woe, and the 7th trump does not sound untill after the end of the second woe, the vials are the 3rd woe and it is the vials when the river is dried up. If the 1st is said to be past before the 2nd woe starts and the 2nd woe is said to be past before the 3rd woe starts then the 'pit' has been open for 'some time' before the vial is poured out as a preperation for the kings of the east, which you say is China. The 200mil have accomplished what they are supposed to do before the start of the third woe.

Later
We totally disagree on the timing of the Woes and what they are.

For me, all the Trumpets sound on a single day, so my statement stands as stated to Jessie.

Not going to crank up another Trib discussion when we cannot get agreement on the basics, first. A effort in futility to do so.

[MHz]

So the trumps are a pre-view of the seals?

[CoreIssue]

So the trumps are a pre-view of the seals?
No.

Seals followed by Trumps followed by Bowls followed by Second Coming.

This is getting off topic.

[MHz]

hI cORE,
So the trumps are a pre-view of the seals?
No.

Seals followed by Trumps followed by Bowls followed by Second Coming.

This is getting off topic.
So what, the general topic is Scripture. If this developes into a 'stand alone subject' so be it.

What I find interesting is the one day for all seven trumps. Reason being, the 5th trump indicates an event that lasts 5 months and this woe is said to pass before the 6th can even sound. I really hope ths poiint doesnt take pages. Question, can another sound before one is complete?

LaTER

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

It is important because you keep wanting to discuss the Big Picture without having the definitions and understandings of the components in place first.

I see we disagree even on what the Pit is, what is within it and where it is.

That helps define other issues.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
I would agree that even a modest difference in doctrine can affect the 'big picture'. If a deviation in doctrines goes all the way back to the first book it is very unlikely that anything past that will mesh. Let alone the very last book being even remotely similar in meaning.

Johah has benn to hell and his description should be taken notice of;
Jon:2:6:
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;
the earth with her bars was about me for ever:
yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption,
O LORD my God.

Now I would agree that hell is not a place to ever hope to be, but it still has a determined time. Nobody is left in hell at some point of Judgement Day. Your version has the lake of fire being in hell during this time. The beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire at Christ's return. To state that this lake is in hell and not a seperate place of it's own leaves even a small hope that once in the lake 'some will be released, even if for a very short time', it is a false hope, once in this lake of fire its over. This is the second death (when the Holy Spirit will never again visit what it once was a part of), in order to have this death you would also have to be as close to God as any prophet of the OT or Apostle of Christ, this is the same relationship granted all angels in the beginning of Heaven. Both knowing good and evil and having 'direct access' to God.
Part of this will lead to a clearer and sharper edfination of what a saint is. If you don't also allow the words 'believer' and those that 'fear thy name' then a 'saint' covers some who are in a different group. There are a few verses that have all these in the very same verse. In the NT letters were written to some, usually more than one letter, the later letters would add to what the previous had stated. It isn't a snap of the fingers that you become a saint, you have to be a believer first, then you may have to know all the verses that tell how God deals with those He is not pleased with, 'fear thy name'.
Do you get the general drift of the above yet?
Becoming a Saint has a few 'steps' involved. That is all it means, a new believer has the same benifits as somebody who has studied for generations.
If you say the Bible says I must do this, or that, then you are a believer. If Christ stops you like He did to Saul/Paul then that is a higher calling. Notice also that men came to Paul after this, he didn't just suddenly take the word to the Gentiles. Progression, some start before others but all end up being the same at some point in time (for saints).
Is this the Church;
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

You favorite Church has in it's description the word 'overcome' (I admit this is the best sounding of the Churches, but only in that what is to be overcome would seem to be the easiest). If they haven't overcome that by the time your rapture is supposed to happen do they then end up as trib saints?

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

I would agree that even a modest difference in doctrine can affect the 'big picture'. If a deviation in doctrines goes all the way back to the first book it is very unlikely that anything past that will mesh. Let alone the very last book being even remotely similar in meaning.

Agree.

Johah has benn to hell and his description should be taken notice of;
Jon:2:6:
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;
the earth with her bars was about me for ever:
yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption,
O LORD my God.

No. He did was not on his way to Hell, but Paradise (Not the Heavenly Paradise), which is also off of the Pit
Now I would agree that hell is not a place to ever hope to be, but it still has a determined time. Nobody is left in hell at some point of Judgement Day.
Agree.
Your version has the lake of fire being in hell during this time.
Not the Eternal one. It does not exist yet. As there are more than one Paradises, there is more than one Lake.
The beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire at Christ's return. To state that this lake is in hell and not a seperate place of it's own leaves even a small hope that once in the lake 'some will be released, even if for a very short time', it is a false hope, once in this lake of fire its over.
Again, not the Eternal Lake.
This is the second death (when the Holy Spirit will never again visit what it once was a part of),
The Holy Spirit will never be part of humans that go to the Lake.
in order to have this death you would also have to be as close to God as any prophet of the OT or Apostle of Christ,
No. You don't. Sinners die first when they do their first sin they are repsonsible for. The Second is when they are judged eternally separate from God.

this is the same relationship granted all angels in the beginning of Heaven. Both knowing good and evil and having 'direct access' to God.

Which does not apply to humans.
Part of this will lead to a clearer and sharper edfination of what a saint is. If you don't also allow the words 'believer' and those that 'fear thy name' then a 'saint' covers some who are in a different group.
Saint = Believer = Fear thy Name
There are a few verses that have all these in the very same verse.
Kick in Rightous and so on, and you see saints throughout the Bible.

In the NT letters were written to some, usually more than one letter, the later letters would add to what the previous had stated. It isn't a snap of the fingers that you become a saint, you have to be a believer first, then you may have to know all the verses that tell how God deals with those He is not pleased with, 'fear thy name'.

False. That is works and we are saved by grace. Salvation is not a process. You are either saved or not.

Do you get the general drift of the above yet?

Yep. You believe in works, not grace. Dangerous belief.

Becoming a Saint has a few 'steps' involved. That is all it means, a new believer has the same benifits as somebody who has studied for generations.

No. A saint is a saint. There are no degrees of salvation.
If you say the Bible says I must do this, or that, then you are a believer. If Christ stops you like He did to Saul/Paul then that is a higher calling. Notice also that
Salvation only requires recognizing Christ as God, incarnate, he died for your sin and you repent in faith through grace in Christ.

Nothing more. You step over the line into legalism.

men came to Paul after this, he didn't just suddenly take the word to the Gentiles. Progression, some start before others but all end up being the same at some point in time (for saints).

Your talking sanctification, not salvation.

Is this the Church;
Isa:40:15:
Behold,
the nations are as a drop of a bucket,
and are counted as the small dust of the balance:
behold,
he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Not talking about any church here.

You favorite Church has in it's description the word 'overcome' (I admit this is the best sounding of the Churches, but only in that what is to be overcome would seem to be the easiest). If they haven't overcome that by the time your rapture is supposed to happen do they then end up as trib saints?

All saved are saints upon salvation.

Later

[MHz]

No. He did was not on his way to Hell, but Paradise (Not the Heavenly Paradise), which is also off of the Pit
A person wouldn't refer to Paradise as an affliction, nor would they pray to be saved from Paradise. Jonah was in hell;
Jon:2:2:
And said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD,
and he heard me;
out of the belly of hell cried I,
and thou heardest my voice.

[CoreIssue]

No. He did was not on his way to Hell, but Paradise (Not the Heavenly Paradise), which is also off of the Pit
A person wouldn't refer to Paradise as an affliction, nor would they pray to be saved from Paradise. Jonah was in hell;
Jon:2:2:
And said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD,
and he heard me;
out of the belly of hell cried I,
and thou heardest my voice.
Jonah was not dead. Dying, yes, but not dead.

He did not say he cried out from Hell. He said he cried out from the belly of his grave. And that was the whale.

sheol means Hell and grave.

He is speaking figuratively here.
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God.
He was deep in the water. Figuratively at the root of the mountains.

Notice he did not say he was in the earth, but a the sea floor.

Figurative language. Not literal.

He was dying but not dead.
7 "When my life was ebbing away,
I remembered you, LORD,
and my prayer rose to you,
to your holy temple.
The whale's belly was his pit and his grave.

He was a saint. So he was on the way to Paradise until God saved him. But he had to actually die to leave his body and go there.

The belly was literally his grave. And it was a pit.

[Jessie]

I have heard many people say Jonah died and came back..
why do they do that? never did set right with me.

[CoreIssue]

I have heard many people say Jonah died and came back..
why do they do that? never did set right with me.
That is because they do not read fully. The pick up on the KJV mistranslation and focus on what they want to see. Not what is said.

[MHz]

Core, some or your answers are totally outside the box. hell isn't hell, dead isn't dead.
What in the world are you doing?
Does your 'fierce loyality' to what you have stated publically have a bearing on this? In light of new verses or ,even worse, a combination of already known verses you just try and make them fit into what you already believe, this isn't way things work.

Maybe we should start with something easier(after all, learning about God is supposed to be a joyeous experience).
With the workers and the penny a day , who is who?

Jonah was 'running away' from a task God had sent him to perform, that is why he was tossed into the sea, that is why there was a storm and that is why the storm ended when he was cast overboard. Now for a man to be at the bottom of the sea is going to result in death. Jonah went to hell because he was being disobedient to God, the one who sent the storm.
On Jonah's side there was the reason for refusal, he simply did not want to speak a prophecy that would result in the deaths of those prophecised to. In the end Jonah did what God had asked him to do but rather than destruction, the people listened and changerd.
Rest assured if God asks you tou to do something you are already in Paradise, refuse and you will end up in hell, where the only one who matters is the only one who will hear you. God certainly heard Jonah but still gave him days before he released that hold.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,

Core, some or your answers are totally outside the box. hell isn't hell, dead isn't dead.
What in the world are you doing?

Actully, you are the one with the out of the box positions.

Does your 'fierce loyality' to what you have stated publically have a bearing on this? In light of new verses or ,even worse, a combination of already known verses you just try and make them fit into what you already believe, this isn't way things work.

I know of no polite way to put this, but you are the one who has doctrines that are classically defined as non-Christian and cult. So, don't go pretending you are even close to main stream Christianity in beliefs.

Maybe we should start with something easier(after all, learning about God is supposed to be a joyeous experience).
With the workers and the penny a day , who is who?

I do get joy in it. But I refuse to blind myself to word meaning and grammar to achieve it, as you seem to be doing.

Jonah was 'running away' from a task God had sent him to perform, that is why he was tossed into the sea, that is why there was a storm and that is why the storm ended when he was cast overboard. Now for a man to be at the bottom of the sea is going to result in death. Jonah went to hell because he was being disobedient to God, the one who sent the storm.

See. You just did it again. Why did you conveniently leave out he was swallowed by a whale?

On Jonah's side there was the reason for refusal, he simply did not want to speak a prophecy that would result in the deaths of those prophecised to. In the end Jonah did what God had asked him to do but rather than destruction, the people listened and changerd.

Actually, I believe he feared they would kill him.

Rest assured if God asks you tou to do something you are already in Paradise, refuse and you will end up in hell, where the only one who matters is the only one who will hear you. God certainly heard Jonah but still gave him days before he released that hold.

Which has nothing to to with the topic of the Pit.

While I would not refuse, but if a saint refused, God would not condemn him to Hell for that refusal.

If you believe that then you do not understand salvation is not based on works. Which I don't think you understand.

You are actually miffed here because you got it wrong again.

Later

[Jessie]

not sure what you meant by the sin he bore going to hell.
Christ took the repsonsibility for sin payment from us to himself. All who will pay for sin go to Hell upon death.

So Christ had to go to Hell due to the our sins.

But Hell could not hang onto him, because he never sinned.
almost sounded like you were saying Christ went into hell or was it the part that was paradise?
He went to Hell. But Hell could not hang onto him.

He preached to all in the Pit, both Hell and Paradise.

Many have the idea that just dying on the Cross ended the sin payment. It did not. Sin goes to Hell.
curious why the river would need to be dryed up to open the pit.
It served multiple purposes. It allowed the Pit to remain open, continuously, without the water pouring in. And allowed the 2 Mil man army a way to cross over fast and easy.

and wonder if a great earthquake would do the job? one that came from the depths of the earth?

Could be. There wa a huge quake also at Mid.

also, you mentioned being chained in the river...
would this be in the river or beneath the river since the opening to the pit is there.

I believe it means in the Pit, since the mouth of the Pit is in the river.

and these demons what are they? are they the ones who toment people with stingers in their tails?

The locusts are demons. But the 4 demons are not with the locust event. They are ones that go out to China and tempt them to attack.

then why did Jesus say "it is finished" on the cross.
this almost sounds like what Joyce meyers says.

God turned away from Jesus while on the cross. I find nowhere it says Jesus went to hell.

[Jessie]

also, what would the point of preaching to those in hell be?

[CoreIssue]

then why did Jesus say "it is finished" on the cross.
this almost sounds like what Joyce meyers says.

God turned away from Jesus while on the cross. I find nowhere it says Jesus went to hell.

Oh, no! Meyers and that ilk believe Christ became sinful and died spiritually.

He did not. He bore our sins. He never became sinful. And sin's rightful place is in Hell.

Hell could hold the sin. But it could not hold Christ.

Christ said it is finished because he died for our sins. Meaning he had completed the just punishment for sin, death.

But that had nothing to do with where the just place for the spiritually dead is, Hell. Yet he was not spiritually dead.

His body was the sin offering, not his spirit.

It says Christ descended and preached to those in prison. Those who rebelled before the Flood, and such. Those people are in Hell, a prison. So to preach to them he had to be in Hell.

Those in Paradise were not in prison. They were in an intermediate waiting place before they could go to heaven.


also, what would the point of preaching to those in hell be?

So that it is true, at the White Throne Judgment, that none who stand before him have an excuse.

He preached to them of himself, knowing they would reject him.

Now, none can say, "If only we had heard the Gospel."

[MHz]

Hi Core,


Actully, you are the one with the out of the box positions.[/QUOTE]
I remember how many verses I read that mentioned 'genetic contamination" Zero verses. Six fingers and toes is 4 more than we have, in total. To come up that is outside the box, to come with a verse that about how ths could have happened in Scripture is by the book.

I know of no polite way to put this, but you are the one who has doctrines that are classically defined as non-Christian and cult. So, don't go pretending you are even close to main stream Christianity in beliefs.
I doubt that I hold any doctrine that is unheard of. The labels that you keep giving me show that.
That it conflicts with your verson is why you see it as non-Christian. An example is the 7 Churches, some say they are 'time indicators', a history of man's relationship with God in the last 2,000 years.
Why isn't it that none of these Churches is past? If all are still in existance today then there are some in all that have overcome or will overcome at some future time. Like in the time from when that verse applies untill the time of decision. With Holy Angels being the heads of these Churches would seem to indicate that where Holy Angels are the Holy Spirit of God is also close by and with this kind of quide you certainly stand a better chance of remaining alive (and then gathered). Satan may not be very concerned with 'believers' and those that 'fear thy name' compared to the two witnesses.


I do get joy in it. But I refuse to blind myself to word meaning and grammar to achieve it, as you seem to be doing.

Well I admit I use other verses to verify how the same word has been used in other Scripture. Like 'rest' and 'sleep'. Jesus used them in the same quote. A search for the word 'grace' almost reads like a chapter on it's own. If you don't go and read the passage you would miss quite a few "God forbid"(s) that do have meaning for the word grace.



See. You just did it again. Why did you conveniently leave out he was swallowed by a whale?

So was it a 'normal' whale?
Jon:1:17:
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah.
And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Jonah prays because this has happened to him;
Jon:2:3:
For thou hadst cast me into the deep,
in the midst of the seas;
and the floods compassed me about:
all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Jon:2:4:
Then I said,
I am cast out of thy sight;
yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
Jon:2:5:
The waters compassed me about,
even to the soul:
the depth closed me round about,
the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Has he just died 'in the flesh'?

Being 'cast out of his sight' would indicate being in hell;
Jon:2:6:
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;
the earth with her bars was about me for ever:
yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption,
O LORD my God.

Jon:2:2:
And said,
I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD,
and he heard me;
out of the belly of hell cried I,
and thou heardest my voice.

If a fish has a belly then hell might also have one, your version would be the lake, my version is slightly different;
Isa:14:15:
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.

Isa:14:19:
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain,
thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit;
as a carcase trodden under feet.

De:32:22:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
and shall burn unto the lowest hell,
and shall consume the earth with her increase,
and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Once Jonah says he will do what the Lord had asked the fish delivers back on land.



Actually, I believe he feared they would kill him.


Jon:3:9:
Who can tell if God will turn and repent,
and turn away from his fierce anger,
that we perish not?
Jon:3:10:
And God saw their works,
that they turned from their evil way;
and God repented of the evil,
that he had said that he would do unto them;
and he did it not.
Jon:4:1:
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly,
and he was very angry.

Jon:4:5:
So Jonah went out of the city,
and sat on the east side of the city,
and there made him a booth,
and sat under it in the shadow,
till he might see what would become of the city.



Which has nothing to to with the topic of the Pit.

While I would not refuse, but if a saint refused, God would not condemn him to Hell for that refusal.
Lu:12:47:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu:12:48:
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.


If you believe that then you do not understand salvation is not based on works. Which I don't think you understand.
It is a good indication of whether a person is living within Christ's guidelines or just saying they are Christians, in word and deed;
Jas:2:26:
For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also.




Later

[MHz]

Hi Core,
[QUOTE]
And sin's rightful place is in Hell.

It says Christ descended and preached to those in prison.



I would agree that sinners will see Hell, but since some sins are forgiven not all sinners see hell but they will still death, that is the price of sin;

Ro:6:23:
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro:8:10:
And if Christ be in you,
the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The grave is also a prison;

Ro:8:10:
And if Christ be in you,
the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Job:3:13:
For now should I have lain still and been quiet,
I should have slept:
then had I been at rest,
Job:3:14:
With kings and counsellers of the earth,
which built desolate places for themselves;
Job:3:15:
Or with princes that had gold,
who filled their houses with silver:
Job:3:16:
Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been;
as infants which never saw light.
Job:3:17:
There the wicked cease from troubling;
and there the weary be at rest.
Job:3:18:
There the prisoners rest together;
they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
Job:3:19:
The small and great are there;
and the servant is free from his master.
Job:3:20:
Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery,
and life unto the bitter in soul;

The unborn infant would not be in hell but still being a prisoner of the grave.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,



Actully, you are the one with the out of the box positions.
I remember how many verses I read that mentioned 'genetic contamination" Zero verses. Six fingers and toes is 4 more than we have, in total. To come up that is outside the box, to come with a verse that about how ths could have happened in Scripture is by the book.


I was referring to the Pit, not the Nephilim discussion.

You were trying to redefine the Pit and move it.

[QUOTE]I know of no polite way to put this, but you are the one who has doctrines that are classically defined as non-Christian and cult. So, don't go pretending you are even close to main stream Christianity in beliefs.
I doubt that I hold any doctrine that is unheard of. The labels that you keep giving me show that.
That it conflicts with your verson is why you see it as non-Christian.

No. Because what you are saying is in agreement with what a number of cults teach is why I said it.

No. It is not unheard of. But, yes, it is not accepted in Christianity.

An example is the 7 Churches, some say they are 'time indicators', a history of man's relationship with God in the last 2,000 years.
Why isn't it that none of these Churches is past?

They are past in the sense of being the dominate aspects of the time. They are not past in the sense of still existing in various forms and combinations.
If all are still in existance today then there are some in all that have overcome or will overcome at some future time.
There are no saved in the 7th church.

Your use of overcome is a problem. You use it to indicate salvation and sainthood in a works manner, which it is not.
Like in the time from when that verse applies untill the time of decision. With Holy Angels being the heads of these Churches
Never says they are the heads of the churches.
would seem to indicate that where Holy Angels are the Holy Spirit of God is also close by and with this kind of quide you certainly stand a better chance of remaining alive (and then gathered).
The 7 lampstands are gone at the First Seal. Now the 7 angels are aiding in administering the Trib upon Man.
Satan may not be very concerned with 'believers' and those that 'fear thy name' compared to the two witnesses.
He is concerned with all of them.

But he does not get onto the earth until Mid.


I do get joy in it. But I refuse to blind myself to word meaning and grammar to achieve it, as you seem to be doing.

Well I admit I use other verses to verify how the same word has been used in other Scripture.

That is context, not word meaning. You must compare context, not merge them together into one passage becuase of common words and try to find context.

Context plus context gives bigger context.

As with gather. Gather at the Rapture is gathering, but it also involves resurrection and glorification.

Gathering of living Israel, at the Second Coming, does not contain resurrection and glorification.

You fail there because you take resurrection from one and add it to the other.

Like 'rest' and 'sleep'. Jesus used them in the same quote. A search for the word 'grace' almost reads like a chapter on it's own. If you don't go and read the passage you would miss quite a few "God forbid"(s) that do have meaning for the word grace.

Again, rest can mean bodily sleep, as in at night or bodily death, where the body shuts down.

By tring to merge them you end up with Soul Sleep. And that is grammatically and contextually wrong.

And the forbide issues are related to grace, but do not define grace itself. Relationship, not meaning.


See. You just did it again. Why did you conveniently leave out he was swallowed by a whale?

So was it a 'normal' whale?

Yes. Here you go again spiirtualizing things.
Has he just died 'in the flesh'?
No. He says he was fading and used figurative speech to describe being in the whale and under the water.
Being 'cast out of his sight' would indicate being in hell;
No. It does not.
If a fish has a belly then hell might also have one, your version would be the lake, my version is slightly different;
I am trying to remember, but I do believe it was called that somewhere.

And for sure, our versions would be different.

When the Rich Man woke, he woke in Hell, in torment and in flames. The Lake in Hell.

Isa:14:15:
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.

Isa:14:19:
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are slain,
thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit;
as a carcase trodden under feet.

De:32:22:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
and shall burn unto the lowest hell,
and shall consume the earth with her increase,
and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Again, Hell with fire in it. The Lake.
Once Jonah says he will do what the Lord had asked the fish delivers back on land.
Yep. He did not die.


Actually, I believe he feared they would kill him.

Jon:3:9:
Who can tell if God will turn and repent,
and turn away from his fierce anger,
that we perish not?
Jon:3:10:
And God saw their works,
that they turned from their evil way;
and God repented of the evil,
that he had said that he would do unto them;
and he did it not.
Jon:4:1:
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly,
and he was very angry.

Jon:4:5:
So Jonah went out of the city,
and sat on the east side of the city,
and there made him a booth,
and sat under it in the shadow,
till he might see what would become of the city.


Which still does not answer the issue of why he fled originally.

Which has nothing to to with the topic of the Pit.
While I would not refuse, but if a saint refused, God would not condemn him to Hell for that refusal.
Lu:12:47:
And that servant,
which knew his lord's will,
and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will,
shall be beaten with many stripes.
Lu:12:48:
But he that knew not,
and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required:
and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more.

But he remains a servant, which is my point.

You have him being cast out as a servant.


If you believe that then you do not understand salvation is not based on works. Which I don't think you understand.
It is a good indication of whether a person is living within Christ's guidelines or just saying they are Christians, in word and deed;
Jas:2:26:
For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also.

Agree in that aspect 100%.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

[quote]
And sin's rightful place is in Hell.

It says Christ descended and preached to those in prison.



I would agree that sinners will see Hell, but since some sins are forgiven not all sinners see hell but they will still death, that is the price of sin;

All sins, past, present and future are forgiven at repentence.

You either die and go to Hell or Heaven. No inbetween.
The unborn infant would not be in hell but still being a prisoner of the grave.
No. They are innocent and thus not responsible for any sin.

They go to Heaven.

Later

[Jessie]

then why did Jesus say "it is finished" on the cross.
this almost sounds like what Joyce meyers says.

God turned away from Jesus while on the cross. I find nowhere it says Jesus went to hell.

Oh, no! Meyers and that ilk believe Christ became sinful and died spiritually.

He did not. He bore our sins. He never became sinful. And sin's rightful place is in Hell.

Hell could hold the sin. But it could not hold Christ.

Christ said it is finished because he died for our sins. Meaning he had completed the just punishment for sin, death.

But that had nothing to do with where the just place for the spiritually dead is, Hell. Yet he was not spiritually dead.

His body was the sin offering, not his spirit.

It says Christ descended and preached to those in prison. Those who rebelled before the Flood, and such. Those people are in Hell, a prison. So to preach to them he had to be in Hell.

Those in Paradise were not in prison. They were in an intermediate waiting place before they could go to heaven.


also, what would the point of preaching to those in hell be?

So that it is true, at the White Throne Judgment, that none who stand before him have an excuse.

He preached to them of himself, knowing they would reject him.

Now, none can say, "If only we had heard the Gospel."


now that makes better sense!

I thought it was those in paradise he preached to not those in hell.
would they still not accept Him? what a strange place.
and too why preach to those who had already rejected him? or was this to give them "a chance" ?

this one leaves me scratching my head!

[CoreIssue]

now that makes better sense!

I thought it was those in paradise he preached to not those in hell.
would they still not accept Him? what a strange place.
There is a time when one locks in their eternal choices. Exactly how and why, I don't know, but it is there.

Look at those at the end of the MK in the Short time marching on Jerusalem after Christ was on the earth for 1,000 years. How could they reject him? But they do.

and too why preach to those who had already rejected him? or was this to give them "a chance" ?
As I said, so none of them, at the White Throne have an excuse, as Christ says they will have no excuse.

Not knowing or being offered Christ would be an excuse.
this one leaves me scratching my head!
People are loaded with pride and ego. They will reject what is best for them because it is not them in charge. Just like Satan.

Satan's pride reached the point it was more powerful than his logic. Everyone reaches the point where what drives them, concerning God and so one becomes too powerful to change within them.

[Ruth]

[quote]

Many have the idea that just dying on the Cross ended the sin payment. It did not. Sin goes to Hell.


From my understanding, the wages of sin is death. That is how it is explained in Genesis.
Our redemption is in the innocent blood of our Lord. It was finished on the cross and that was why He said It is Finished.
Also, that is why the curtain in the temple was torn in two at that moment and the dead came out of their graves - Jesus paid it in full on the cross. It tore in half because His death paid the price and there no longer was a barrier between man and God.

Matthew 27:50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

The visit to Hell was to preach to the lost who had not had a savior until then.
1 Peter 3:
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203%20;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428d)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

So, IMHO, and based on the scriptural references I have provided above - I think that it was completed on the cross in the shedding of His blood.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Ruth,

This passage must be taken into consideration in the issue.
1 Corinthians 15
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Christ paid for the sin on the cross.

But for it to be effective he had to resurrect, ascend to the Father, and offer the sin sacrifice to him.

Otherwise, Christ would have remained in Paradise, sin free. But we would die in our sin and never be cleansed of it because the Holy Spirit would never have been sent.

Having the money for a ticket does not pay for the ticket until you present it to the judge.

[Ruth]

Hi Ruth,

This passage must be taken into consideration in the issue.
1 Corinthians 15
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Christ paid for the sin on the cross.

But for it to be effective he had to resurrect, ascend to the Father, and offer the sin sacrifice to him.

Otherwise, Christ would have remained in Paradise, sin free. But we would die in our sin and never be cleansed of it because the Holy Spirit would never have been sent.

Having the money for a ticket does not pay for the ticket until you present it to the judge.

I'm sorry but where in scripture do you come to these conclusions? I do not see your point in the passage that you site.

When the blood sacrifices were done in the temple, or in the other places before the temple was built - God came down and accepted the sacrifice either by angels or by fire - where does it say what you are concluding?

[CoreIssue]

I'm sorry but where in scripture do you come to these conclusions? I do not see your point in the passage that you site.
No problem.

It says very plainly if Christ did not resurrect we would stay in our sin and be condemned for eternity.

So, the cross paid for the sin but it could not applied without the resurrection.

Meaning Christ did not overcome death on the cross, it just created the sin price. His ressurection overcame death.

He had to overcome death, not the Father or Holy Spirit.
When the blood sacrifices were done in the temple, or in the other places before the temple was built - God came down and accepted the sacrifice either by angels or by fire - where does it say what you are concluding?
Not correct.

In the Temple sacrifices the blood was shed in the Inner Temple, then the offering was brought into the Holy of Holies. And only by the High Priest and only then offered to God and accepted.

In other sacrifices the sacrifice had to be raised up and offered to God by the one who made the sacrifice. It was not accepted until then.

It was never enough to simply shed the blood.

[Ruth]

I'm sorry but where in scripture do you come to these conclusions? I do not see your point in the passage that you site.
No problem.

It says very plainly if Christ did not resurrect we would stay in our sin and be condemned for eternity.

So, the cross paid for the sin but it could not applied without the resurrection.

Meaning Christ did not overcome death on the cross, it just created the sin price. His ressurection overcame death.

He had to overcome death, not the Father or Holy Spirit.
When the blood sacrifices were done in the temple, or in the other places before the temple was built - God came down and accepted the sacrifice either by angels or by fire - where does it say what you are concluding?
Not correct.

In the Temple sacrifices the blood was shed in the Inner Temple, then the offering was brought into the Holy of Holies. And only by the High Priest and only then offered to God and accepted.

In other sacrifices the sacrifice had to be raised up and offered to God by the one who made the sacrifice. It was not accepted until then.

It was never enough to simply shed the blood.


Then why was the curtain torn and the dead raised from their graves as soon as Jesus gave up His spirit? The torn curtain was evidence that the barrier had been removed - the sacrifice was received accepted and delivered and accomplished the task.

He was resurrected at that time - but His first order of business was to attend to those in prison before He showed Himself to the disciples. He wasn't 'dead' those three days. He was just a little busy.

[CoreIssue]

Then why was the curtain torn and the dead raised from their graves as soon as Jesus gave up His spirit?
They did not resurrect. The 'resusitated,' so to speak. But their sins remained in them.
The torn curtain was evidence that the barrier had been removed - the sacrifice was received accepted and delivered and accomplished the task.

No. It said now the way to stand before the Father was via Christ, who is God in the flesh.

But, to complete the connection and process, Christ had to ascend.
He was resurrected at that time - but His first order of business was to attend to those in prison before He showed Himself to the disciples. He wasn't 'dead' those three days. He was just a little busy.
First, he presented himself to those in prison (Hell).
Second, he overcame death and existed Hell, it could not hold him.
Third, he went to those in Paradise.
Fouth, he rose with the spirits of those in Paradise in train, which shows that those who rose from the graves did not resurrect because the saints of spirits were still in Paradise.
Fifth, he resurrected in his earthly flesh, was seen, and said do not touch me until I go to the Father.
Sixth, he went on to Heaven with the spirits of the saints with him.
Seventh, he presented his body to the Father as a sacrfice, which the Father accepted.
Eighth, he was then glorified.
Nineth, he returned to the earth and presented himself to the Apostles and such.

But, as in the OT Temple, the full process for sin forgiveness was not complete until presented to God (First Person, now Father)

So the sin price was paid first.
That made Christ the door to the Father, not the Temple.
Then he defeated death.
Then he resurrected and ascend to present the offering.
Then, and only then was it all complete.

It is more than sin price that saves us. It is also overcoming death and price acceptance.

Hope that helps.

[Ruth]

No, it doesn't help because (I hate to be stickler or bother about this) but could you present scripture to support the order of things and your statements?

[CoreIssue]

No, it doesn't help because (I hate to be stickler or bother about this) but could you present scripture to support the order of things and your statements?
OK. But it will have to be later.

I don't have the time right now.

In the meantime, I would like to hear our reconciliation of the 1 Cor verses I posted and your position.

That passage means something. ;)

[Ruth]

Hi Ruth,

This passage must be taken into consideration in the issue.
1 Corinthians 15
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Christ paid for the sin on the cross.

But for it to be effective he had to resurrect, ascend to the Father, and offer the sin sacrifice to him.

Otherwise, Christ would have remained in Paradise, sin free. But we would die in our sin and never be cleansed of it because the Holy Spirit would never have been sent.

Having the money for a ticket does not pay for the ticket until you present it to the judge.

I'm sorry but where in scripture do you come to these conclusions? I do not see your point in the passage that you site.

When the blood sacrifices were done in the temple, or in the other places before the temple was built - God came down and accepted the sacrifice either by angels or by fire - where does it say what you are concluding?

I did respond- I didn't see your conclusions in this passage at all.
This passage simply states the obvious - that Christ was ressurected. You are jumping to additional conclusions not stated here - from what I can see.

Yes - I have been away to dinner and stopped back in - but plant to go back out for the evening. Perhaps I will have time when I get home tonight. If not - tomorrow.

[CoreIssue]

I did respond- I didn't see your conclusions in this passage at all.
This passage simply states the obvious - that Christ was ressurected. You are jumping to additional conclusions not stated here - from what I can see.

Yes - I have been away to dinner and stopped back in - but plant to go back out for the evening. Perhaps I will have time when I get home tonight. If not - tomorrow.

I think you miss the point.

You said it was ALL complete on the cross.

Here says.

17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

It says the cross was not enough to cleanse you of your sin. The resurrection had to occur.

And the resurrection was 3 days after the cross. So, if the cross was enough, then how could this be said?

Also, you are reading in that it covered cleansing us of sin, and not just the sin price being paid.

Where do you see this fulfills the demands of the Temple rites, where were shadows of Christ to come?

[CoreIssue]

I am assuming I don't need to post the verses on the cross. Christ said it was done, but he did not state what was complete. That was a read in on your part.
First, he presented himself to those in prison (Hell).
Ephesians 4
8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-29265b)] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-29266c)]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 3
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428d)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago

Second, he overcame death and existed Hell, it could not hold him.


Acts 2
24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.


Third, he went to those in Paradise.

Fouth, he rose with the spirits of those in Paradise in train, which shows that those who rose from the graves did not resurrect because the saints of spirits were still in Paradise.


He had to go to Paradise to be able to lead them out. And since they were OT saint they had never heard his name or Gospel. To receive the Holy Spirit they had to hear and accept.


Fifth, he resurrected in his earthly flesh, was seen, and said do not touch me until I go to the Father.

Sixth, he went on to Heaven with the spirits of the saints with him.
Seventh, he presented his body to the Father as a sacrfice, which the Father accepted.

John 20

15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

We are now after him leading the spirits from Paradise but before going to Heaven. And it says he led the spirits to Heaven.

So, out of Paradise with them, resurrected, says this and then ascends.

In the Temple sacrifices the High Priest was cleansed, and he could absolutely touch nothing until the sacrifice and offering was complete.

So, here, Christ was the sacrifice and was the High Priest, both spotless, and he had yet to offer himself up to the Father.

He most assuredly was not glorified if mistaken for a gardner.

Eighth, he was then glorified.
Next, we see him appearing to the Apostles. He was glorfied. Self explanatory.
Nineth, he returned to the earth and presented himself to the Apostles and such.

Pretty clear cut, I believe.

[Ruth]

I really am trying hard to believe you here but you did not present clear and convincing scriptures to support your conjectures that it was not finished until He presented His body to the Father for approval of the sacrifice.
Nor did you present exact scriptures to each of the aspects you listed - you just repeated your own statements without scripture.

I'm sorry - but we are not any further in moving forward than we were when we started.

Our salvation is in His blood shed for us.
No one denies that He went into hell but it wasn't to pay anything or to have victory over anything - everything was completed on the cross and unless you can show me a scripture that disputes the It is Finished does not mean 'really, really finished' I stand on the fact that when He said those words - it was all done - the rest was collecting those who were in prison waiting for their savior to release them and the rest of what He had to do.

Where is the scripture where He presents Himself to the Father for approval? You didn't provide any scripture for this and it is the main point we are disputing.

[Ruth]

Dave Hunt's Newsletter of July 1991:
"The Bible makes clear that we are saved by believing the true gospel—and that anything less or more cannot save. False gospels abound. Take, for example, just one of the heresies taught by Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland. On February 19, 1991, CRI's Hank Hanegraaff explained this perverse teaching to the head of TBN on his "Praise the Lord" program, but it was dismissed as of no consequence. It is the teaching that the shedding of Christ's blood upon the cross did not effect our redemption. That although Christ cried in triumph, "It is finished!" it was not finished. That although He said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit," He came into the hands of Satan who carried our Lord into hell and there tortured Him three days and three nights, thereby accomplishing our redemption. If Satan didn't torture Christ enough, are we not saved? If he did, do we thank him for the vital role he played in our redemption? What blasphemy!

On the contrary, the Bible always links redemption with what happened on the Cross. It is never implied, much less taught, that redemption took place in hell—nor that our salvation is secured by baptism, Mary's intercession, the Mass or our suffering in purgatory. Paul declared that he would glory in nothing except "the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal 6:14). We are told that Christ "became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil 2:8). There is no hint that he also died spiritually in hell at the hands of Satan, as the faith teachers heretically claim.

We have "redemption through his blood" (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14) and not by reason of tortures which Satan allegedly inflicted upon Christ. His blood was shed on the cross, not in hell, and it is explicitly stated that He "made peace through the blood of His cross" (Col 1:20). Throughout eternity, the song of the redeemed in heaven will forever be to Him "that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Rv 1:5). Yet Copeland teaches a false gospel: "When His blood poured out, it did not atone..."!"

[CoreIssue]

You are confusing issues and connecting what I am saying to those who say Christ died spiritually and thus salvation is in Hell. And he resurrected a man who was born-again.

I never would say such a thing.

Again, Christ paid the blood price on the cross.

Now, tell me how that blood gets applied to us.

Think here. In the Temple and all OT sacrifices the blood was pure. But when was it accepted by God? At the moment of shedding or when brought before him and offered up to him?

Why did Paul say if Christ did not resurrect we would still be dead in our sins? Paul most assuredly said Christ never sinned, was pure and his death on the cross paid the price.

Why did Christ say not to touch him until he went to the Father?

Relate this all to the OT Temple sacrifices and you will see the answer.

And I will try once more, comparing to the Temple sacrifices on the key points.

Christ (High Priest) shed his own blood - animal blood was shed by High Priest

Christ presented himself as the blood sacrfice before the Father in Heaven. Christ, and only Christ, could do this. - High Priest, and only the High Priest could come before the Father in the Holy Holies (shadow of Heaven) and HAD to have blood with him.
Hebrews 9
6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.
The Temple and rites were shadows of what was to come.
Christ the Lamb = OT Lamb
Blood = blood
Christ the High Priest = High Priest
Blood PRESENTED before the Father in Heaven was acceptable to forgive sin - Blood PRESENTED before the Ark in the Holy of Holies was acceptable to forgive sin.

The pattern was shadowed in the OT and had to be followed in the NT. The blood indeed was a sin price, in both cases, but it did not get applied until offered to and accepts by God on behalf of the people.

That is why Paul also said:
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
No debate here.

Paul says Christ HAD to resurrect for your sins to be forgiven.

Why? The price was paid on the cross.

Because the blood was not effective until brought before God and offered up to him for the sins of the people. Just as in the OT.

Yes, Christ's death paid the price, it was finished. Yes, the way was open directly to the Father. But no, the door was not in place and the blood not effective until offered up in the Father's very presence.

I am not adding to it being finished on the cross. You and others are.

For, the payment for sin was finished there. But to be applied to you and me it must be offered up by our High Priest before the Throne of God.

That is what is said. And why we do not look to the cross, but his resurrection for our cleansing.

It is a process.
Blood payment for sin
Offering to the Father.

Without the complete process your sins cannot be washed away, even though the blood price was complete on the cross.

Does that help? ;)

[Ruth]

No, I'm sorry. I am not moved to your way of thinking because you still have not provided the scripture that shows the Jesus presented the offering to the Father for approval.
Since that would be a pretty important issue as you describe it - then I would think Paul would have mentioned it a few times or Peter would have.
Where is the scripture describing this exactly - not an inferrence, but exactly.

Thank you for your kind patience with me. We may end up simply agreeing to disagree and that is fine too.

[CoreIssue]

No, I'm sorry. I am not moved to your way of thinking because you still have not provided the scripture that shows the Jesus presented the offering to the Father for approval.
Since that would be a pretty important issue as you describe it - then I would think Paul would have mentioned it a few times or Peter would have.
Where is the scripture describing this exactly - not an inferrence, but exactly.

Thank you for your kind patience with me. We may end up simply agreeing to disagree and that is fine too.
Sure.

But your positions leaves you without an answer to this statement by Paul.
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
By your position it would not be futile because the cross ended in full.

Paul didn't say one word about the cross.

He says those who died with Christ remain dead with Christ.

Christ was indeed dead until he resurrected. Wasn't he?

Please reconcile these issues from your perspective.

I can from mine.

[Jessie]

core said:

That is what is said. And why we do not look to the cross, but his resurrection for our cleansing.

interesting, as it seems to make a difference in the way we look at things.
could you expound on this?

[CoreIssue]

Protestant crosses do not have Christ on them because they recognize if the issues were still on the cross we are doomed.

It has been recognized that Christ's resurrection is where our hope is.

The cross was a day or sorrow and pain. The resurrection is the day of joy and hope.

Which is more celebrated? The Cross of the Resurrection? The Resurrection.

Notice crucifixes are used by those who see the job incomplete. That Christ began it and we must complete it?

There is a distinction between sin payment price and sin application price.

No one here is arguing Christ did not pay the price in full on the Cross.

What is being argued is how the blood gets from the Cross to the Father and then to us. Christ offers his blood for us, the Father accepts it and declares paid in full and the Holy Spirit administers it.

That could not happen if Christ did not resurrected and ascend.

That is why solid Bible preachers, the Apostles and so on do not dwell on the Cross, but the resurrection.

The Apostles were Jewish. They understood the Temple rites.

The lambs blood was shed OUTSIDE the dwelling place of God. It had to be brought into the dwelling place of God and presented to him there before he could accept it.

The High Priest was the shadow type of Christ.

The alter was the shadow type of the Cross.

The Holy of Holies was the shadow type of Heaven.

The Ark was the shadow type of the Throne of God.

Christ fulfilled this demanded sequence only upon presenting the blood before the Father.

[Ruth]

I don't want to take away from Jesse's questions. She started this thread.
I think we have waivered from the original concern and that was attributing any amount of what Jesus did to any time in hell.

I agree completely that the resurrection was crucial - if He had not overcome death there would be no victory. But trying to tie hell in with what He did is where we differ.

This discussion has taken too many twists and turns to make heads or tails of it anymore.
I will start another thread where we can strictly focus on the one question. We can establish where we agree and where we differ and then establish scripture to support our positions where we differ.

I will bow out here so Jesse can continue her discussion with you.

Core - you certainly seemed to be spread thin here in trying to address our questions!
I'm in no hurry. So take your time with responding to me. :tiphat:

[MHz]

Hi Core,
When you say Jesus preached the Gospel to those in hell, as well as to those in the grave (Abraham's bosom), you don't really mention what you thing the outcome was. Previous words would indicate it may have had zero effect in that these couldn't say at Judgement Day that they had never heard of the Gospel.
At Christ's return many will fall to His sword and their next thousand years will be in hell, do you also see these being preached to about the Gospel, if so does this have any effect on them at Judgement Day. Also, since both death and hell (and the sea) give up their dead who are the ones in death?

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,

Hi Core,
When you say Jesus preached the Gospel to those in hell, as well as to those in the grave (Abraham's bosom), you don't really mention what you thing the outcome was. Previous words would indicate it may have had zero effect in that these couldn't say at Judgement Day that they had never heard of the Gospel.
At Christ's return many will fall to His sword and their next thousand years will be in hell, do you also see these being preached to about the Gospel, if so does this have any effect on them at Judgement Day. Also, since both death and hell (and the sea) give up their dead who are the ones in death?

Later
The change effect was zero. They were offered and they continued to reject.

Amazing how self defeating pride can be.

As for the Second Coming, they already know the Gospel. There is nothing more to preach to those who have 2,000 years of history and the testimony of the Two Witnesses.

Beginning the latter 20th Century the Gospel has been preached to every corner of the earth.

Death, in the final, ultimate context, means those who are apart from God.

The First Resurrection deals with those who are saints. Thus all in Death at the White Throne are to eternally damned.

At that time physical death is conquered. Everyone who every lived will have been either resurrected in the First of Second Resurrections. Now the issue is purely a spiritual one.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

The change effect was zero. They were offered and they continued to reject.
And you know this how?
That it is Jesus who preaches the Gospel to these would seem to indicate you have little faith in how powerfull a high priest Christ actually is, in reguards to explaining to men about God. You have stated even with the living in the thousand years that many are in sin, despite having Christ living with them and all who are alive go once a year to the feast of tabernacles, to His house of prayer. So with Christ Himself, and that alone would be more than enough to provide righteous leadership, the 24 Elders, the whole house of resurrected Israel, and the Church, and maybe even access to Holy Angels, you still see sin as claiming many of the people. I don't have to deal with the above, I simply reject your understanding of the Scripture you use to promote this.
You say the unborn child who dies goes to Heaven, yet no verse actually says this, so it is more than possible that 'they' are part of 'the rest'. Those who will be alive for the thousand years are listed, it is a rather 'select group' if all of mankind is considered, this would also make 'the rest' a much larger group who come to life, and are able to retain this new life than who have been a part of the thousand years.

Amazing how self defeating pride can be.
In relation to those in hell, God certainly 'listens' to what is said but to preach the Gospel is more for those who died without knowing the Gospel, hell is for those who know and reject the Gospel. Like those who call Christ Lord and do not follow His instructions. It is prayer that will be heard but prayer concieved by the person in hell without any prompting from voices that are in Heaven, that voice only reaches those in the grave.

As for the Second Coming, they already know the Gospel. There is nothing more to preach to those who have 2,000 years of history and the testimony of the Two Witnesses.
Unless a prophecy determined some would be determined to be doing certain things;
Jer:25:17:
Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand,
and made all the nations to drink,
unto whom the LORD had sent me:

Jer:25:28:
And it shall be,
if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink,
then shalt thou say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
Ye shall certainly drink.


Beginning the latter 20th Century the Gospel has been preached to every corner of the earth.
Would you consider the RCC in the dark ages as part of 'preaching the Gospel'?
To preach the Gospel would require accurate knowledge, since Christians have many different doctrines and not a singularity of truth who are we to preach? Here is a test question, if you are talking to someone about Jesus and they aren't receptive, what do you do in this situation?

Death, in the final, ultimate context, means those who are apart from God.
The lake of fire is being apart from God, but everyone sent there is certainly 'well aware' of just where they are. Having God turn His back to you is also being apart from God. Death seperates you from the living, it does not mean you are 'apart from God' as everyone dead will be called out of death.

The First Resurrection deals with those who are saints. Thus all in Death at the White Throne are to eternally damned.
List them (saints)all please. Verses only.
Who is Hebrews 12 written for?
Who are not the 'servants' in Isaiah 65?


At that time physical death is conquered. Everyone who every lived will have been either resurrected in the First of Second Resurrections. Now the issue is purely a spiritual one.
The term 'second resurrection' is not in Scripture, what is said is the rest of the dead become alive and that is (part) of the first (and only) resurrection. Those who will be alive for the thousand years will be resurrected first, and that is all it says;
Re:20:5:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Re:20:6:
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1Co:15:51:
Behold,
I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed,
1Co:15:52:
In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
1Co:15:53:
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co:15:54:
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co:15:55:
O death,
where is thy sting?
O grave,
where is thy victory?
1Co:15:56:
The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co:15:57:
But thanks be to God,
which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co:15:58:
Therefore,
my beloved brethren,
be ye stedfast,
unmoveable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord,
forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


The above plainly states that those alive are 'in the same state' as those who will be raised from the grave, the first are the whole house of Israel, the reason being it is the whole house is because trangressions on their part will not bring protection from death, except for the 144,000.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz,


The change effect was zero. They were offered and they continued to reject.
And you know this how?

Because:
1. The eternal lost went to Hell, in the OT times, and the saints went to Paradise, a waiting place. No third option existed.
2. The Bible says we live this earthly life once and then are judged. Not live, die, might change our minds, and then judged.
3. The Bible says those who enter the Lake are there for eternity. It says those who are saved are predestined to glorification and being with Christ.
4. The Angels who rebelled could then also change their minds and repent. But they have no way back to Heaven.

For there to a be an ongoing chance of changning ones mind would mean there could also be a future rebellion in Heaven, which the Bible shows is not going to happen.

The Rich Man did not repent nor try to change his fate. He spoke of chaning the minds of those still on the earth.
That it is Jesus who preaches the Gospel to these would seem to indicate you have little faith in how powerfull a high priest Christ actually is, in regauards to explaining to men about God.
No. You are looking in the wrong place. I have no lack of faith in the ability of people to spit themselves for eternity.

And this is a ill thought out statement. Christ explained to people about God and himself while he lived on this earth. They killed him for it.

You have stated even with the living in the thousand years that many are in sin, despite having Christ living with them and all who are alive go once a year to the feast of tabernacles, to His house of prayer. So with Christ Himself, and that alone would be more than enough to provide righteous leadership, the 24 Elders, the whole house of resurrected Israel, and the Church, and maybe even access to Holy Angels, you still see sin as claiming many of the people. I don't have to deal with the above, I simply reject your understanding of the Scripture you use to promote this.

Reject away. I will not address several errors you made here because they are off topic.

I provided the verses stating there would be sin. You reject them because of your desires, not the words of the verses.

Sorry, not going off topic for the rest you said. Either needs to be in an existing thread coverning those issues or start another.

But, since we cannot get even close on foundational meanings and issues, we would not get very far, I fear.


Amazing how self defeating pride can be.
In relation to those in hell, God certainly 'listens' to what is said but to preach the Gospel is more for those who died without knowing the Gospel, hell is for those who know and reject the Gospel. Like those who call Christ Lord and do not follow His instructions. It is prayer that will be heard but prayer concieved by the person in hell without any prompting from voices that are in Heaven, that voice only reaches those in the grave.

Those in Hell do not pray to God. Curse him, yes, not not pray.


As for the Second Coming, they already know the Gospel. There is nothing more to preach to those who have 2,000 years of history and the testimony of the Two Witnesses.
Unless a prophecy determined some would be determined to be doing certain things;

God does not force people to think in a certain way. He will encourage, allow and enable them to do evil, that serves his purpose. But never does he force one to reject him or think is a specific manner.


Beginning the latter 20th Century the Gospel has been preached to every corner of the earth.
Would you consider the RCC in the dark ages as part of 'preaching the Gospel'?
To preach the Gospel would require accurate knowledge, since Christians have many different doctrines and not a singularity of truth who are we to preach? Here is a test question, if you are talking to someone about Jesus and they aren't receptive, what do you do in this situation?

What has the Dark Ages got to to do with this?

Paul tells us those without the Gospel or Law are judged by Conscience.


Death, in the final, ultimate context, means those who are apart from God.
The lake of fire is being apart from God, but everyone sent there is certainly 'well aware' of just where they are. Having God turn His back to you is also being apart from God. Death seperates you from the living, it does not mean you are 'apart from God' as everyone dead will be called out of death.

The Lake is a literal and physical place.


The First Resurrection deals with those who are saints. Thus all in Death at the White Throne are to eternally damned.
List them (saints)all please. Verses only.
Who is Hebrews 12 written for?
Who are not the 'servants' in Isaiah 65?

For the I don't how many times, Hebrews and Isaiah are not Resurrection verses.

And I have posted the verses numberous times stating those in the First Resurrection are blessed and at the White Throne the damned are resurrected, judged and cast into the Lake.


At that time physical death is conquered. Everyone who every lived will have been either resurrected in the First of Second Resurrections. Now the issue is purely a spiritual one.
The term 'second resurrection' is not in Scripture, what is said is the rest of the dead become alive and that is (part) of the first (and only) resurrection. Those who will be alive for the thousand years will be resurrected first, and that is all it says;
Re:20:5:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Re:20:6:
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Right. Now a bit of Logic here.

If the Resurrection of the Blessed is the FIRST Resurrection, what does that make the next one?

1Co:15:51:
Behold,
I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed,
1Co:15:52:
In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
1Co:15:53:
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co:15:54:
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co:15:55:
O death,
where is thy sting?
O grave,
where is thy victory?
1Co:15:56:
The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co:15:57:
But thanks be to God,
which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co:15:58:
Therefore,
my beloved brethren,
be ye stedfast,
unmoveable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord,
forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


The above plainly states that those alive are 'in the same state' as those who will be raised from the grave, the first are the whole house of Israel, the reason being it is the whole house is because trangressions on their part will not bring protection from death, except for the 144,000.

You are warping the verse.

It says those DEAD in Christ Resurrect to the earth and then ALL IN CHRIST rise to meet him in the clouds.

It is talking all saints, not Israel. It is not a Second Coming passage, but a Rapture one.

That very much leaves the living, who are not in Christ, in the flesh and on the earth.

There is no Rapture at the Second Coming. There is the gathering of still living Israel, the 144,000 and more, the Resurrection of the dead Trib Saints, the coming of the glorified Church, with Christ and the rest of the world, who survived, very much alive in earthly flesh.

We really need to limit this topic to the Pit. Plenty of room for other threads.

Later

[MHz]

Hi Core;
We really need to limit this topic to the Pit. Plenty of room for other threads.

In the discussion of the pit, we still have to find the supporting verses for who is in hell and their fate. We also have to determine how hell and the lake of fire are different.

Because:
1. The eternal lost went to Hell, in the OT times, and the saints went to Paradise, a waiting place. No third option existed.
A verse from Daniel speaks of a resurrection of many, some to rewards and others to (a place to avoid);
Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.

(the beginning of great tribulation, the sound of the 7th trump, the time that those still alive are gathered, etc. Satan's tribulation is ended, this is the cleansing of the Earth of all the wicked. You don't bring somebody out of hell just to send them back, you awake everybody that is asleep and then some go to hell, others to glorified bodies for the thousand years.)

Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
( Even this says many, not all will awake, some will remain asleep for the thousand years, like the unborn child and many others. This awakening is for those who will be alive for the thousand years and for those who will be in hell for the thousand years, everlasting in that there are no breaks)

Da:12:3:
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(This one is interesting in that the righteous already are judged to be alive have already been turned. Who but those in hell can be turned. I wouldn't say anybody other than Christ is wise, but it does say 'they' so I doubt He is alone, you have already judged where those who end up in hell belong, in the one eternal lake of fire.)


2. The Bible says we live this earthly life once and then are judged. Not live, die, might change our minds, and then judged.
Fair enough, but we also have to consider the Gospel is preached to the dead in order that they (the dead) will be judged the same as the living (having heard the Gospel) That this verse is after Judgement Day is worth noting for those children born into the new earth and there is an age for men that will be their age at judgement;

Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.


3. The Bible says those who enter the Lake are there for eternity. It says those who are saved are predestined to glorification and being with Christ.
Which would be not possible with your two lakes, hell is empty on Judgement Day, so is death and the seas hold no dead.



4. The Angels who rebelled could then also change their minds and repent. But they have no way back to Heaven.
No they don't. Look at the difference, they were without sin and had the knowledge of good and evil. There is no repenting of any sin from this state of being.


For there to a be an ongoing chance of changning ones mind would mean there could also be a future rebellion in Heaven, which the Bible shows is not going to happen.
No chance for another fall;
Isa:65:23:
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.



The Rich Man did not repent nor try to change his fate. He spoke of chaning the minds of those still on the earth.
What got him into hell was not careing for those less fortunate than himself. I've never said you get released from hell 'early', just as Jonah stayed in the belly for the full alotted time so will those who are sent to hell, they will be there untill Judgement Day.


No. You are looking in the wrong place. I have no lack of faith in the ability of people to spit themselves for eternity.
That wasn't the topic, the topic was 'Can Christ stop a person who would become a sinner?'


And this is a ill thought out statement. Christ explained to people about God and himself while he lived on this earth. They killed him for it.

You do know that the cross was prophecised, right? Your statement indicates it did not have to happen, totally false.


For the I don't how many times, Hebrews and Isaiah are not Resurrection verses.
Just who do you think Christ is chastising?
Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
Re:20:12:
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb:12:2:
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb:12:3:
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself,
lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb:12:4:
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,
striving against sin.
Heb:12:5:
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son,
despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb:12:6:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb:12:7:
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb:12:8:
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.

The below is after Christ's return, two groups are described;
Isa:65:11:
But ye are they that forsake the LORD,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.

What, in the above, is not about resurrection, being given to the sword and then having the 'former troubles' forgotten. These would still have a certain amount of time to show they have overcome their ways that brought the sword on them in the first place.


And I have posted the verses numberous times stating those in the First Resurrection are blessed and at the White Throne the damned are resurrected, judged and cast into the Lake.

The blessed and 'the rest' are both in the 'first resurrection', just at different times. Two groups, what do you have, about 4 so far?


Right. Now a bit of Logic here.

If the Resurrection of the Blessed is the FIRST Resurrection, what does that make the next one?
That would make their resurrection the first one.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi MHz;

We really need to limit this topic to the Pit. Plenty of room for other threads.

In the discussion of the pit, we still have to find the supporting verses for who is in hell and their fate. We also have to determine how hell and the lake of fire are different.

Because:
1. The eternal lost went to Hell, in the OT times, and the saints went to Paradise, a waiting place. No third option existed.
A verse from Daniel speaks of a resurrection of many, some to rewards and others to (a place to avoid);
Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.

(the beginning of great tribulation, the sound of the 7th trump, the time that those still alive are gathered, etc. Satan's tribulation is ended, this is the cleansing of the Earth of all the wicked. You don't bring somebody out of hell just to send them back, you awake everybody that is asleep and then some go to hell, others to glorified bodies for the thousand years.)

No. Totally disagree with your timing. You are putting all the Bowls after the Second Coming, which is not true.

Also, Daniel is not limiting to the Trib. He is speaking of the whole DOTL.

Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
( Even this says many, not all will awake, some will remain asleep for the thousand years, like the unborn child and many others. This awakening is for those who will be alive for the thousand years and for those who will be in hell for the thousand years, everlasting in that there are no breaks)

Your timing is wrong.

This is speaking of the First and Second Resurrection.

The First is from the Pre-Trib Rapture to the end of the Short time. The Second is after the First and after the destruction of the heavens and the earth.

Da:12:3:
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;
and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(This one is interesting in that the righteous already are judged to be alive have already been turned. Who but those in hell can be turned. I wouldn't say anybody other than Christ is wise, but it does say 'they' so I doubt He is alone, you have already judged where those who end up in hell belong, in the one eternal lake of fire.)

No. None in Hell can be turned. This is never even hinted at in the Bible.

It says live once, die and then be judged. Not live, die, get another chance and then be judged.


2. The Bible says we live this earthly life once and then are judged. Not live, die, might change our minds, and then judged.
Fair enough, but we also have to consider the Gospel is preached to the dead in order that they (the dead) will be judged the same as the living (having heard the Gospel) That this verse is after Judgement Day is worth noting for those children born into the new earth and there is an age for men that will be their age at judgement;

It never ever says that all must hear the Gospel to be judged.

Enoch never heard the Gospel. But was judged righteous and taken in the flesh to Heaven. As was Elijah.

We see many called righteous and of God in the OT without hearing the Gospel.

Paul says those who have neither the Law or Gospel are judged by conscience.

It is one thing to offer Christ to those who were in Paradise, already saints, and have them accept.

It is quite another to think those in Hell, hearing the Gospel, might repent.

You are trying to make your doctrine work, but are simply ending up with contradictions.

No one changes their minds after death. Period.

There is no hope for fallen angels or demons. No means of salvation. No hope for people who die unsaved. They never come out of Hell or the Lake.

None who are saved ever change. Romans 8 says ALL who loved God are predestined to eternal glorification and being with him. Not some.

You are applying verses, about hearing the Gospel, that are stated concerning those who have the Gospel available, in the flesh, to those who did not. False concept.

Re:21:7:
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.

Correct. The saved will be with God. The unsaved will not.

All who repent are saints instantly. No earning it. No works involved.


3. The Bible says those who enter the Lake are there for eternity. It says those who are saved are predestined to glorification and being with Christ.
Which would be not possible with your two lakes, hell is empty on Judgement Day, so is death and the seas hold no dead.

Again, you spin what I said.

The current Lake is part of Hell. It is not the Eternal Lake from which none judged will emerge.

None have been judged yet.


4. The Angels who rebelled could then also change their minds and repent. But they have no way back to Heaven.
No they don't. Look at the difference, they were without sin and had the knowledge of good and evil. There is no repenting of any sin from this state of being.

Which is my point. Once one reaches that final decision there is no changing of mind or heart.

The Fallen Angels have no way out. Those in Hell have no way out.


For there to a be an ongoing chance of changning ones mind would mean there could also be a future rebellion in Heaven, which the Bible shows is not going to happen.
No chance for another fall;

And if no chance of another fall, then no chance of a future repentence. Same issue, opposite position.

Isa:65:23:
They shall not labour in vain,
nor bring forth for trouble;
for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD,
and their offspring with them.
Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

NOT eternity. This is the MK where living flesh is still living their lives and making their eternal decisions.


The Rich Man did not repent nor try to change his fate. He spoke of chaning the minds of those still on the earth.
What got him into hell was not careing for those less fortunate than himself. I've never said you get released from hell 'early', just as Jonah stayed in the belly for the full alotted time so will those who are sent to hell, they will be there untill Judgement Day.

Totally nonbiblical statement. Not even hinted at any future possible release.


No. You are looking in the wrong place. I have no lack of faith in the ability of people to spit themselves for eternity.
That wasn't the topic, the topic was 'Can Christ stop a person who would become a sinner?'

It is the issue.

Christ will not and cannot force someone to repent. To do so violates freewill, regarding the choice, and he will never do that.

You accused me of 'underpowering' Christ. Which is not the issue. Choice is.


And this is a ill thought out statement. Christ explained to people about God and himself while he lived on this earth. They killed him for it.

You do know that the cross was prophecised, right? Your statement indicates it did not have to happen, totally false.

Yes. It was prophecied.

Where you go wrong is in the idea Christ caused it to happen. He allowed it to happen.

Big difference.

There would have been zero substitutionary value in it if he had not permitted others to kill him unjustly, but made them kill him.

He would have been his own executioner then.


For the I don't how many times, Hebrews and Isaiah are not Resurrection verses.
Just who do you think Christ is chastising?

He isn't chastising anyone at the White Throne. He is judging and condemning them.

Chastise is to correct. That time is well past.

Re:20:11:
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away;
and there was found no place for them.
Re:20:12:
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works.

Second Resurrection. The damned. After the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth.

Heb:12:22:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb:12:23:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb:12:24:
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb:12:25:
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb:12:2:
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb:12:3:
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself,
lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb:12:4:
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood,
striving against sin.
Heb:12:5:
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children,
My son,
despise not thou the chastening of the Lord,
nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb:12:6:
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb:12:7:
If ye endure chastening,
God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb:12:8:
But if ye be without chastisement,
whereof all are partakers,
then are ye bastards,
and not sons.

Read it carefully.

He is speaking to the still living. Jerusalem is still in Heaven.

This has nothing to do with the First Resurrection.

The below is after Christ's return, two groups are described;
Isa:65:11:
But ye are they that forsake the LORD,
that forget my holy mountain,
that prepare a table for that troop,
and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Isa:65:12:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isa:65:13:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold,
my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Isa:65:14:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Isa:65:15:
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:
Isa:65:16:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.

What, in the above, is not about resurrection, being given to the sword and then having the 'former troubles' forgotten. These would still have a certain amount of time to show they have overcome their ways that brought the sword on them in the first place.

All of it. It is about living Israel gathered at the Second Coming.


And I have posted the verses numberous times stating those in the First Resurrection are blessed and at the White Throne the damned are resurrected, judged and cast into the Lake.

The blessed and 'the rest' are both in the 'first resurrection', just at different times. Two groups, what do you have, about 4 so far?

False. There is one resurrection of the blessed and one of the damned.


Right. Now a bit of Logic here.

If the Resurrection of the Blessed is the FIRST Resurrection, what does that make the next one?
That would make their resurrection the first one.

Oh, come on. If something is the first, that means there is a second. Otherwise it is just THE resurrection.

Later

[MHz]

Hi Core,

No. Totally disagree with your timing. You are putting all the Bowls

after the Second Coming, which is not true.
Totally allowed to disagree. However being as this is the beginning of

anopther chapter an no new subject is introduced I feel it is not wrong

to look back at what the last chapter was talking about;
Da:11:45:
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in

the glorious holy mountain;
yet he shall come to his end,
and none shall help him.

The vials are his end, and the end of life to all who support him. The

first life, the one of flesh.

Just because you disagree does not make you the final authority on the

subject.

Also, Daniel is not limiting to the Trib. He is speaking of the whole

DOTL.

Daniel covers time from when Daniel was given his visions. TDOFT has

not yet arrived and having Satan cast to arth is not the start of it

for us on Eartrh, TDOTL starts when Satan has reached the end of his 42

months.

Your timing is wrong.
It isn't my timing, it is the timing Scripture gives

This is speaking of the First and Second Resurrection.
No it is speaking of some who come to life and some are sent to hell,

that is when the one who has the keys to death and hell uses the keys.

The First is from the Pre-Trib Rapture to the

end of the Short time. The Second is after the First and after the

destruction of the heavens and the earth.

Your words, Scripture never says there is more than one, it does say it

is a thousand years after the blessed are resurrected that 'the rest'

are then resurrected.

No. None in Hell can be turned. This is never even hinted at in the

Bible.
If a Gentile dies in sin (before repentance) that shouldn't be a

different fate than when God turns his back to a wayward Israel, both

would seem to deserve hell (for eternity in your view). It is certainly

in God's right to withold 'protection from suffering death' if some are

not living within His guidelines. When wayward Israel is given to the

sword that should be the end of their story, but it isn't, God's anger

passes and only when it is past are their sins forgiven;
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity

for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions

have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
Eze:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze:39:26:
After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.


It says live once, die and then be judged. Not live, die, get another

chance and then be judged.

Scripture also says there is none that are righteous, that would seem

to put everybody in hell. You will say your sins are covered by grace

but you then refuse to deal with God's mercy and how far that can be

extended. There