another rapture at the end of the MK? [Archive]

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MHz

08-09-2006, 01:18 AM

CoreIssue

08-09-2006, 10:06 AM

What proof is there that this is not the first time the bodies of men ascend to Heaven? Basaed on this verse;
Isa:51:6:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,
and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Surely the other timeframes have verses more descriptive than this one, be it pre, mid, post.
Because the Heavens and the earth are destroyed here, which puts it post MK.

2 Peter 3

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30517a)] 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30519b)]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

The destruction of the Heavens and the earth are on the DOTL. So is the First Rapture, the Second Coming, the Trib and the MK.

This tells us how the lasts saints get off of this earth, at the end of Satan's Short time.

Saints are not resurrected to earthly flesh for the MK. They are resurrected to glorified flesh. The Wedding Supper is in Heaven during the Trib.

MHz

08-11-2006, 08:21 AM

Hi Core,
They are resurrected to glorified flesh. The Wedding Supper is in Heaven during the Trib.
Re:19:7:
Let us be glad and rejoice,
and give honour to him:
for the marriage of the Lamb is come,
and his wife hath made herself ready.
Re:19:8:
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen,
clean and white:
for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Re:19:9:
And he saith unto me,
Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
And he saith unto me,
These are the true sayings of God.

Jewish Law has it that a groom cannot go to war for one year after he is married. A year does not pass before these next verses start. It definately states 'is come' meaning now is the time, so it is not yet a past event;

Re:19:12:
His eyes were as a flame of fire,
and on his head were many crowns;
and he had a name written,
that no man knew,
but he himself.
Re:19:13:
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
Re:19:14:
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
Re:19:15:
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,
that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Re:19:16:
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,
KING OF KINGS,
AND LORD OF LORDS.
Re:19:17:
And I saw an angel standing in the sun;
and he cried with a loud voice,
saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Re:19:18:
That ye may eat the flesh of kings,
and the flesh of captains,
and the flesh of mighty men,
and the flesh of horses,
and of them that sit on them,
and the flesh of all men,
both free and bond,
both small and great.
Re:19:19:
And I saw the beast,
and the kings of the earth,
and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,
and against his army.
Re:19:20:
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It is after this that the marriage takes place, this also includes the first of the dead being raised back to love. One segment being the whole house of Israel;

Eze:37:19:
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze:37:20:
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze:37:21:
And say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen,
whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side,
and bring them into their own land:
Eze:37:22:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze:37:23:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols,
nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions:
but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned,
and will cleanse them:
so shall they be my people,
and I will be their God.
Eze:37:24:
And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes,
and do them.
Eze:37:25:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they,
and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze:37:26:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them;
it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:
and I will place them,
and multiply them,
and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze:37:27:
My tabernacle also shall be with them:
yea,
I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Eze:37:28:
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel,
when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Resurrected to be alive on the land given to them, everyone from the very first to the last one born before the end of the seven vials.

Later

CoreIssue

08-11-2006, 11:04 AM

This has nothing to do with events after the MK. Which is what this thread is about.

You have listed events of the Trib and Second Coming.

This earth and Heavens are not destroyed until after the MK and after the short time.

You are constantly blurring and merging these issues and divisions.

Is the MK, to you, a time period of 1,000 years after the Second Coming? Or are we in the MK, now, as some believe?

MHz

08-11-2006, 07:45 PM

CoreIssue

08-11-2006, 10:50 PM

After the last vial, Christ is in battle during the vials. the marriage has to take place after He is finshed fighting. The verse that says the marriage is about to happen is not more than a year. Christ would not break that Law, nor any. The marriage takes place after all that are going 'away' have been 'sent away'.
You are still way before the the topic subject, which is what happens at the end of the Short Time of Satan after the MK.

As much as I have comments to make on what you said, I want to stay on topic.

MHz

08-11-2006, 10:58 PM

CoreIssue

08-11-2006, 11:35 PM

Hi Core,
Well really, who do you think is there, living in the 'the beloved city', the ones in the verses I posted, the whole house of Israel.
Now who lives, or 'visits' the 'camp of the saints about', might it be the ones from the nations. All safe even being 'compassed' by Satan and whatever followers he still has.

Later
Who is living in Jerusalem are the Jews born during the MK.

Not resurrected anyone.

The Church and resurrected Trib Saint left with Christ at the end of the MK, leaving all living flesh behind.

Who surrounds them are the living people of the earth who once again follow Satan over Christ.

There are multitude born in the MK. But that does not mean they are sinless or accepting of Christ as Lord, God and Savior.

MHz

08-13-2006, 02:53 AM

Not resurrected anyone.
Are you actually saying none of Israel is resurrected?
Why would you say something like that?
Everyone from the house of Israel wiil be resurrected and be alive for the thousand years, right from the very beginning of when that people were first called 'my people' right up to the last one born before His second coming.

Eze:37:12:
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze:37:13:
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze:37:14:
And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it,
saith the LORD.
Eze:37:15:
The word of the LORD came again unto me,
saying,
Eze:37:16:
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze:37:17:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze:37:18:
And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee,
saying,
Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze:37:19:
Say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph,
which is in the hand of Ephraim,
and the tribes of Israel his fellows,
and will put them with him,
even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick,
and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze:37:20:
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze:37:21:
And say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen,
whither they be gone,
and will gather them on every side,
and bring them into their own land:
Eze:37:22:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel;
and one king shall be king to them all:
and they shall be no more two nations,
neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze:37:23:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols,
nor with their detestable things,
nor with any of their transgressions:
but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces,
wherein they have sinned,
and will cleanse them:
so shall they be my people,
and I will be their God.
Eze:37:24:
And David my servant shall be king over them;
and they all shall have one shepherd:
they shall also walk in my judgments,
and observe my statutes,
and do them.
Eze:37:25:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they,
and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze:37:26:
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them;
it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:
and I will place them,
and multiply them,
and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze:37:27:
My tabernacle also shall be with them:
yea,
I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Eze:37:28:
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel,
when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze:39:26:
After that they have borne their shame,
and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me,
when they dwelt safely in their land,
and none made them afraid.
Eze:39:27:
When I have brought them again from the people,
and gathered them out of their enemies' lands,
and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze:39:28:
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God,
which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen:
but I have gathered them unto their own land,
and have left none of them any more there.
Eze:39:29:
Neither will I hide my face any more from them:
for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel,
saith the Lord GOD.

Jer:31:1:
At the same time,
saith the LORD,
will I be the God of all the families of Israel,
and they shall be my people.
Jer:31:2:
Thus saith the LORD,
The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness;
even Israel,
when I went to cause him to rest.
Jer:31:3:
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me,
saying,
Yea,
I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Jer:31:4:
Again I will build thee,
and thou shalt be built,
O virgin of Israel:
thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
Jer:31:5:
Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria:
the planters shall plant,
and shall eat them as common things.
Jer:31:6:
For there shall be a day,
that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry,
Arise ye,
and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
Jer:31:7:
For thus saith the LORD;
Sing with gladness for Jacob,
and shout among the chief of the nations:
publish ye,
praise ye,
and say,
O LORD,
save thy people,
the remnant of Israel.
Jer:31:8:
Behold,
I will bring them from the north country,
and gather them from the coasts of the earth,
and with them the blind and the lame,
the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together:
a great company shall return thither.
Jer:31:9:
They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Jer:31:10:
Hear the word of the LORD,
O ye nations,
and declare it in the isles afar off,
and say,
He that scattered Israel will gather him,
and keep him,
as a shepherd doth his flock.
Jer:31:11:
For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob,
and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
Jer:31:12:
Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD,
for wheat,
and for wine,
and for oil,
and for the young of the flock and of the herd:
and their soul shall be as a watered garden;
and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
Jer:31:13:
Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
both young men and old together:
for I will turn their mourning into joy,
and will comfort them,
and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
Jer:31:14:
And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness,
and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness,
saith the LORD.

CoreIssue

08-13-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=14075#post14075)
Not resurrected anyone.

Are you actually saying none of Israel is resurrected?
Why would you say something like that?
Everyone from the house of Israel wiil be resurrected and be alive for the thousand years, right from the very beginning of when that people were first called 'my people' right up to the last one born before His second coming.

All of OT Israel, Church and saints under the Law of Conscience will be resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture/Resurrection/Beginning of the First Resurrection.

OT Israel is the wife and Priest of the Father. We see that clearly represented by the 24 Elders before the Father's Throne. They are called wife in the OT.

Those under Consicence are the nations outside the gates of the NJ.

Church are those who are the Bride of Christ.

All are in Christ, as we see at Chist's resurrection, wher he led the saints out of Pradise.

All are one in the Body of Christ, but the Body is made up of Church, OT Israel and Law of Conscience, currently. Trib and MK Israel will be added.

No one is resurrected to the earthly flesh to live, build, eat, marry, have children and so on in the MK. NO ONE.

There will be living flesh Israel, who did not die, in the Trib, called to Christ at the Second Coming. This includes the Woman who fled and was protected, but is not restricted to her.

There will be save Gentiles in the MK and Trib.

Ezekiel 37 is not talking about individual Jews. It is talking about the spiritually dead nation of Israel returning to God, at the Scond Coming, and being resurrected as a nation, not as individuals.

The Jews alive, at the Second Coming, will again become a living nation for God.

Read the whole chapter. Whole House of Israel does not mean all who ever lived. It means all Jews, in the flesh, living on the earth, at that time.

They are spiritually dead. The nation is dead. But it will live again.

Nation. Not individuals.

Your reading violates the Bible. Die once and then judgement. Not two chances in the flesh.

MHz

08-14-2006, 01:46 AM

Hi Core,

All of OT Israel, Church and saints under the Law of Conscience will be resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture/Resurrection/Beginning of the First Resurrection.
So when are the rest of Israel raise or if living gathered? The verses I posted put it at the feast of the beasts, there is only one such feast and it is after the vials.

OT Israel is the wife and Priest of the Father. We see that clearly represented by the 24 Elders before the Father's Throne. They are called wife in the OT.
This would also include any born from them, even in exile they are still from the house of Israel. Even when wayward they are still from that same house. Whole is whole, a part (like OT Israel compared to all from that house is a part), maybe even a remnant. The ones lead to the living rivers would be offered a drink, they would no longer be mortal flesh, they would be equal to those who have come from the graves.

Those under Consicence are the nations outside the gates of the NJ.
*** END OF SEARCH ***
Total occurrences for (Law of Conscience ) is [ 0 ]

They are the ones from 'the rest' who were silent during chastisement.

Church are those who are the Bride of Christ.
In the first few chapters are seven letters to the seven angels of the seven churches. In all those churches the word 'overcome' is used quite frequently. In your timing of things do they leave whether or not they have overcome the things they have to overcome.
A few examples,;

Re:2:15:
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans,
which thing I hate.
Re:2:16:
Repent;
or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Re:2:21:
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication;
and she repented not.
Re:2:22:
Behold,
I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
except they repent of their deeds.

All are in Christ, as we see at Chist's resurrection, wher he led the saints out of Pradise.
I can see these as being the 24 Elders;
Re:5:9:
And they sung a new song,
saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
and nation;
Re:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

They would seem to come from all of mankind.

All are one in the Body of Christ, but the Body is made up of Church, OT Israel and Law of Conscience, currently. Trib and MK Israel will be added.
The 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel, most likely of all men also.

No one is resurrected to the earthly flesh to live, build, eat, marry, have children and so on in the MK. NO ONE.
Nor did I say they did, nor would I say those led to the living water (the lame, etc.) still be lame after drinking that water, it is healing water. Healed in the twinkling of an eye.

There will be living flesh Israel, who did not die, in the Trib, called to Christ at the Second Coming. This includes the Woman who fled and was protected, but is not restricted to her. Equal to those brought back from the grave.

There will be save Gentiles in the MK and Trib.
Yes ruled over by an iron rod (meaning non bending and a light yoke) and they will be making plowshears out of the steel left behind.

Ezekiel 37 is not talking about individual Jews. It is talking about the spiritually dead nation of Israel returning to God, at the Scond Coming, and being resurrected as a nation, not as individuals.
Whole house, this would include OT Israel.

The Jews alive, at the Second Coming, will again become a living nation for God. Along with those who have fied, you won't get joy if some are missing.

Read the whole chapter. Whole House of Israel does not mean all who ever lived. It means all Jews, in the flesh, living on the earth, at that time.
Leaving the 144,000 as the only ones;
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

They are spiritually dead. The nation is dead. But it will live again.
Only because He has His back to them. The grave hold the dead in the flesh, spiritually dead is when you can no longers see His face, nor are privy to the rewards that go with that blessing.

Your reading violates the Bible. Die once and then judgement. Not two chances in the flesh.
Never said there was, these are equal to the resurrected and under the same condition, they do not die nor do they marry, nor are they given in marriage;
1Th:4:13:
But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren,
concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.
1Th:4:14:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th:4:15:
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th:4:16:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th:4:17:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th:4:18:
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Later

CoreIssue

08-14-2006, 11:12 AM

Hi MHz,

All of OT Israel, Church and saints under the Law of Conscience will be resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture/Resurrection/Beginning of the First Resurrection.
So when are the rest of Israel raise or if living gathered? The verses I posted put it at the feast of the beasts, there is only one such feast and it is after the vials.

Again, that is National Israel, not individuals.

Those who are Trib Saints will resurrect at the Second Coming.

Those who die during the MK will resurrect at the end of the MK.

Those who are lost in the Second Resurrection at the White Throne.

Every Jews that has ever lived will not be saved. A good many will be in the Lake for Eternity. Just being a Jews does not make one different from Gentiles as regards salvation.

OT Israel is the wife and Priest of the Father. We see that clearly represented by the 24 Elders before the Father's Throne. They are called wife in the OT.
This would also include any born from them, even in exile they are still from the house of Israel. Even when wayward they are still from that same house. Whole is whole, a part (like OT Israel compared to all from that house is a part), maybe even a remnant. The ones lead to the living rivers would be offered a drink, they would no longer be mortal flesh, they would be equal to those who have come from the graves.

Just being a Jew does not save you.

It never says ever Jew will be saved. You are confusing National Israel issues with individual Jews salvation.

Those under Consicence are the nations outside the gates of the NJ.
*** END OF SEARCH ***
Total occurrences for (Law of Conscience ) is [ 0 ]

They are the ones from 'the rest' who were silent during chastisement.

Then you researched wrong.

It says, in Revelation, that the Church and Israel are in the NJ. But it also says there are nations outside.

Church are those who are the Bride of Christ.
In the first few chapters are seven letters to the seven angels of the seven churches. In all those churches the word 'overcome' is used quite frequently. In your timing of things do they leave whether or not they have overcome the things they have to overcome.

It says to those who overcome. It does not say all will overcome.

And it says there are false Christians within those churches, if you read closely.

The 7th church is 100% false. The 6th 100% saved.

All are in Christ, as we see at Chist's resurrection, wher he led the saints out of Pradise.
I can see these as being the 24 Elders;

Again, you add to what is given.

Re:5:9:
And they sung a new song,
saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
and nation;
Re:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

They would seem to come from all of mankind.

Again, you do not post full context.
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:

Who sings? The 24 and the 4 Living.

The 4 Living are not even human.

They sing about what is. They are not saying they are the ones sung about.

Here are better translations. The KJV makes too many mistakes.
NASB

8When He had taken the book, the (A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789A))four living creatures and the (B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789B))twenty-four elders (C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789C))fell down before the (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789D))Lamb, each one holding a (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789E))harp and (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789F))golden bowls full of incense, which are the (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30789G))prayers of the saints.
9And they sang a (H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30790H))new song, saying, "(I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30790I))Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30790J))slain, and (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30790K))purchased for God with Your blood men from (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30790L))every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10"You have made them to be a (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30791M))kingdom and (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30791N))priests to our God; and they will (O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%205:8-10;&version=49;#cen-NASB-30791O))reign upon the earth."

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

The 4 Living were not purchased with the Christ's blood.

The 24 Elders are the only 24 spoken of in the Bible. The Elders of OT Israel.

All are one in the Body of Christ, but the Body is made up of Church, OT Israel and Law of Conscience, currently. Trib and MK Israel will be added.
The 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel, most likely of all men also.

Still will be part of the Body of Christ.

No one is resurrected to the earthly flesh to live, build, eat, marry, have children and so on in the MK. NO ONE.
Nor did I say they did, nor would I say those led to the living water (the lame, etc.) still be lame after drinking that water, it is healing water. Healed in the twinkling of an eye.

Then stop talking about resurrected Israel populating the MK.

There will be living flesh Israel, who did not die, in the Trib, called to Christ at the Second Coming. This includes the Woman who fled and was protected, but is not restricted to her.
Equal to those brought back from the grave.

You just contradicted yourself. Either they are living flesh that had not died or they are resurrected. Make up your mind.

There will be save Gentiles in the MK and Trib.
Yes ruled over by an iron rod (meaning non bending and a light yoke) and they will be making plowshears out of the steel left behind.

Israel will as well.

Ezekiel 37 is not talking about individual Jews. It is talking about the spiritually dead nation of Israel returning to God, at the Scond Coming, and being resurrected as a nation, not as individuals.
Whole house, this would include OT Israel.

Contradiction again! You say resurrection when it suits you and disclaim it when it does not.

The Jews alive, at the Second Coming, will again become a living nation for God. Along with those who have fied, you won't get joy if some are missing.

All will be blessed if they obey.

But the Gentile nations are not going to live in or be part of Israel.

Read the whole chapter. Whole House of Israel does not mean all who ever lived. It means all Jews, in the flesh, living on the earth, at that time.
Leaving the 144,000 as the only ones;

Nonsense!

It says there will be even children gathered back. And women.

Think! How can their be women children if the 144,000 are virgins?

Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

Which does not mean all die. Isaiah and such are very clear Jews will have fled into other nations to hide and will be gathered.

There are women in those gathered. None of the 144,000 are women.

They are spiritually dead. The nation is dead. But it will live again.
Only because He has His back to them. The grave hold the dead in the flesh, spiritually dead is when you can no longers see His face, nor are privy to the rewards that go with that blessing.

Because they turned from him.

Again you are claiming resurrection, here, where it is covenient. Yet aboved denied it.

Make up your mind what you believe!

Your reading violates the Bible. Die once and then judgement. Not two chances in the flesh.
Never said there was, these are equal to the resurrected and under the same condition, they do not die nor do they marry, nor are they given in marriage;

They are either earthly flesh, glorifed flesh or in the grave flesh. There is no other category.

1Th:4:13:
But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren,
concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.
1Th:4:14:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th:4:15:
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th:4:16:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th:4:17:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th:4:18:
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You are talking Pre-Trib Rapture here.

Later

CoreIssue

08-14-2006, 11:16 AM

You lured me off topic again.

We where talking Rapture at the end of the MK and you started on Trib and Second Coming again.

Please go back to topic. I am only going to respond to that here.

Alll of this is evading the need to define basics, as stated before.

We cannot discuss this until a foundation is laid. And we are getting no where on the basics.

MHz

08-14-2006, 11:56 PM

Hi Core,
You lured me off topic again.

We where talking Rapture at the end of the MK and you started on Trib and Second Coming again.

Please go back to topic. I am only going to respond to that here.

Alll of this is evading the need to define basics, as stated before.

We cannot discuss this until a foundation is laid. And we are getting no where on the basics.
Core my dear friend, there will only be one time when men are in Heaven in bodies. This might be a concept that is hard to grasp for those who already have a view, Christ removes the wicked(men and influence of fallen angels) from the Earth, they get buried, still part og Hos domonion but in, not on the Earth. The MK is a time to experience the difference. How the world, forevere more, will operate with Christ as King.
The breath of life that has touched any flesh is preserved, not just of man even though that is the only flesh that will be judged as either going on to the new Earth or going to thew place where Satan, the Beast and the False prophet are.
We can discuss any topic(as a base) till the cows come home but sooner or later we should be able to say 'and then'. Granted tis does give you somew insight that pertains to me and my doctrine. Rest assured it might be something in other finer points that affected the 'basics'.
Later

CoreIssue

08-15-2006, 12:43 AM

Hi MHz,

You lured me off topic again.

We where talking Rapture at the end of the MK and you started on Trib and Second Coming again.

Please go back to topic. I am only going to respond to that here.

Alll of this is evading the need to define basics, as stated before.

We cannot discuss this until a foundation is laid. And we are getting no where on the basics.
Core my dear friend, there will only be one time when men are in Heaven in bodies.

Actually, not true.
This might be a concept that is hard to grasp for those who already have a view, Christ removes the wicked(men and influence of fallen angels) from the Earth, they get buried, still part og Hos domonion but in, not on the Earth. The MK is a time to experience the difference.
Wrong. There is sin in the MK. Clearly stated.
How the world, forevere more, will operate with Christ as King.
No. Eternity is vastly different from the MK.

The breath of life that has touched any flesh is preserved, not just of man even though that is the only flesh that will be judged as either going on to the new Earth or going to thew place where Satan, the Beast and the False prophet are.

A strange and unbiblical statement.
We can discuss any topic(as a base) till the cows come home but sooner or later we should be able to say 'and then'.
And then cannot be said until we understand 'and now.'
Granted tis does give you somew insight that pertains to me and my doctrine. Rest assured it might be something in other finer points that affected the 'basics'.
Again, I am seeing a variation of Amillennial and Post-Millennial hybred thinking.
Both of which are very non-literal non-biblical thinking.

Later

MHz

08-16-2006, 11:18 PM

Hi Core,

The breath of life that has touched any flesh is preserved, not just of man even though that is the only flesh that will be judged as either going on to the new Earth or going to thew place where Satan, the Beast and the False prophet are.

A strange and unbiblical statement.
God knows when the breath of life leaves any of His creations, period;
M't:10:29:
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing?
and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
M't:10:30:
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
M't:10:31:
Fear ye not therefore,
ye are of more value than many sparrows.

The last verse is about salvation, for both. If your imagination limits this then it is time for a new thread. These verses speak of them being taken away and then returned;

Ho:2:18:
And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field,
and with the fowls of heaven,
and with the creeping things of the ground:
and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth,
and will make them to lie down safely.

Ho:4:3:
Therefore shall the land mourn,
and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish,
with the beasts of the field,
and with the fowls of heaven;
yea,
the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.

Joe:1:20:
The beasts of the field cry also unto thee:
for the rivers of waters are dried up,
and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

Joe:2:22:
Be not afraid,
ye beasts of the field:
for the pastures of the wilderness do spring,
for the tree beareth her fruit,
the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

Then again maybe the deaths of those Adam hold no meaning for you, nor the deaths of some men you have judged as unworthy of having the right to die an old man.

Later

We can discuss any topic(as a base) till the cows come home but sooner or later we should be able to say 'and then'.
And then cannot be said until we understand 'and now.'
Granted tis does give you somew insight that pertains to me and my doctrine. Rest assured it might be something in other finer points that affected the 'basics'.
Again, I am seeing a variation of Amillennial and Post-Millennial hybred thinking.
Both of which are very non-literal non-biblical thinking.

Later[/QUOTE]

CoreIssue

08-16-2006, 11:52 PM

What has this got to do with another Rapture?

If you want to discuss what a spirit is, please start another topic under Open Discussion.