Soul Sleep

[CoreIssue]

This is a doctrine held to mainly by cults.

It is dangerous in the sense it perverts many other doctrines of the Bible. And forces adherents to spiritualize literal verses on the issue.

There are a range of meanings applied, from completely ceasing to exist as a person to our flesh being our souls/spirit and we totally shut down as a person, sleeping. We are not aware again until God, again a range, recreates us or resurrections our bodies, than reanimating us.

But that is just not Biblical.

While they have verses they claim teach this, they are, in fact, taking them out of context or misinterpreting them.

There are verses make it very clear our spirits and bodies are two different things, our spirits do not sleep and spirit does not simply mean life force, essence of life or breath of God in us, that returns to God.

Here are two key verses they use as proof of soul sleep.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
But note what it says, in context, with the context being in this eartly realm.

It says the living know they will die, the bodies of the dead know nothing and will recieve no more rewards, on this earth and they are forgotten by the living.

How do we know it means this? Because the spirits of the dead know where they are, they will receive their rewards when judged and they are not forgotten by God and those around them.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Here they say our souls die and go to dust and our life force returns to God.

It does not say that. Yes, our spirits come from God, but no, they are more then a life force. They are us.

Now for versus that show us very much alive and awake out of our bodies.
Revelation 6:9-10
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
They are very much dead. Not resurrected yet.
Revelation 7
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Again, very much dead. Not Resurrected until the Second Coming.
Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25636a)] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Very dead. One in Paradise and one in Hell. Before Christ even died.
1 Peter 3:18-19
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18-19;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428a)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
They have to we awake to be preached to.
2 Corinthians 5:7
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
Work to please him in or out of our bodies. Means we are awake.
Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
They are awake before the thrones without flesh and we saw their souls under the alter before this time. We see the Rich Man awake before the still future Second Resurrection.

Matthew 17
1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Moses was very much dead. A spirit here.

So, soul sleep does not exist in the Bible.

[MHz]

Hi Core, this is the shorter of the subjects, that is the only reason I will respond to this one first.
This is a doctrine held to mainly by cults.
I don't belong to any cult, other than the one that is about peace and grace.

It is dangerous in the sense it perverts many other doctrines of the Bible. And forces adherents to spiritualize literal verses on the issue.
I'm not quite sure how you see this being so. To me it simple means if one dies before the second coming it is like a period of sleep, without dreams. You fall asleep and then you are awake, unaware of the time that has passed since you fell asleep. This would also apply for some of 'the rest' those who only death holds as those in hell are fully aware of where they are.
If there is any danger in this it is that once a person has a view on 'soul sleep' being not true and later would want to accept that some Scriptures do point a person being asleep then they might also have to closely examine other beliefs they also hold.


There are a range of meanings applied, from completely ceasing to exist as a person to our flesh being our souls/spirit and we totally shut down as a person, sleeping. We are not aware again until God, again a range, recreates us or resurrections our bodies, than reanimating us.
Do you mean like in this verse:
M't:27:52:
And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

This would seem to be the return of the breath of life to the same dust that was alive before this same spirit left them in the first place.

But that is just not Biblical.
We shall see.

While they have verses they claim teach this, they are, in fact, taking them out of context or misinterpreting them.
Again we shall see.

There are verses make it very clear our spirits and bodies are two different things, our spirits do not sleep and spirit does not simply mean life force, essence of life or breath of God in us, that returns to God.
The breath of life doesn't sleep, it is our body that sleeps. The question is, are our thoughts and memories concious in that spirit, more importantly are new thoughts and memories made while this spirit is away from the body. Lazarus lay dead for four days, certainly this would be enough time for new experiences to be aquired, none were spoken about by him.

Here are two key verses they use as proof of soul sleep.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
But note what it says, in context, with the context being in this eartly realm.

It says the living know they will die, the bodies of the dead know nothing and will recieve no more rewards, on this earth and they are forgotten by the living.

How do we know it means this? Because the spirits of the dead know where they are, they will receive their rewards when judged and they are not forgotten by God and those around them.
One thing not mentioned in the above is that there is no seperation of the righteous from the wicked, this would indicate that the breath of life from all men returns to God. Isn't one of the cornerstones is that only the righteous 'see' Heaven? If the spirit contains 'all the person knew' then there are some that are in Heaven that, well, it is said of them that they won't get there before Judgement day.

Do these verses support that view;
Psalms:115:12:
The LORD hath been mindful of us:
he will bless us;
he will bless the house of Israel;
he will bless the house of Aaron.
Psalms:115:13:
He will bless them that fear the LORD,
both small and great.
Psalms:115:14:
The LORD shall increase you more and more,
you and your children.
Psalms:115:15:
Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms:115:16:
The heaven,
even the heavens,
are the LORD's:
but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Psalms:115:17:
The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms:115:18:
But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore.
Praise the LORD.

While the time this refers to is after Israel has been resurrected and the dead could be 'the rest' they are not the first to go into silence, even the ones, before this was written, that had died and had gone into silence.

Psalms:146:2:
While I live will I praise the LORD:
I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
Psalms:146:3:
Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man,
in whom there is no help.
Psalms:146:4:
His breath goeth forth,
he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.

This would seem to the seperation of the living soul into it's two components, dust of the earth and the breath of God, each being in different places.

The two groups below indicate some go to hell and others appear to be sleeping;

Eze:32:26:
There is Meshech,
Tubal,
and all her multitude:
her graves are round about him:
all of them uncircumcised,
slain by the sword,
though they caused their terror in the land of the living.
Eze:32:27:
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised,
which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war:
and they have laid their swords under their heads,
but their iniquities shall be upon their bones,
though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Here they say our souls die and go to dust and our life force returns to God.

It does not say that. Yes, our spirits come from God, but no, they are more then a life force. They are us.
That would be our living soul. A person can be a good soul or a bad soul, the breath of life does not decide who will be what, it only gives life.
They both have to be in the same place for a living soul to exist;
Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

When God spoke to Job later in this book He did correct Job on some things and asked some questions about just how much Job knew about Him, these words were not mentioned then and should have been if Job was speaking in error;

Job:14:12:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job:14:13:
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
Job:14:14:
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Job:14:15:
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job:14:16:
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
Job:14:17:
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
Job:14:18:
And surely the mountain falling cometh to nought,
and the rock is removed out of his place.
Job:14:19:
The waters wear the stones:
thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth;
and thou destroyest the hope of man.
Job:14:20:
Thou prevailest for ever against him,
and he passeth:
thou changest his countenance,
and sendest him away.
Job:14:21:
His sons come to honour,
and he knoweth it not;
and they are brought low,
but he perceiveth it not of them.
Job:14:22:
But his flesh upon him shall have pain,
and his soul within him shall mourn.

If the soul is the breath of life why would it mourn if it is back with God in a concious state, surely the life that existed for this person while in the flesh would be less than being in God's presence.


Now for versus that show us very much alive and awake out of our bodies.
Revelation 6:9-10
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
They are very much dead. Not resurrected yet.
And in what state were they in before this vision and what state will they be in after this vision;
Re:6:11:
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.

If they are told to 'rest yet' for a little season is that like being asleep, if it says that, were they also asleep before they were seen under the altar?


Revelation 7
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Why do you not think of Judgement Day here, when no man is anyplace but before the throne, some for chastisement, others being presented to God as priests and kings?
Great tribulation comes after tribulation and is exclusively the vials.


13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Again, very much dead. Not Resurrected until the Second Coming.
See just above.


Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25636a)] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Very dead. One in Paradise and one in Hell. Before Christ even died.
I don't deny the ones who will be in hell are aware of where they are. How much did Lazarus say in these verses, he seems to be being held, like a sleeping child.


1 Peter 3:18-19
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18-19;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428a)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
They have to we awake to be preached to.
It is quite clear from the ones that Jesus did raise from the dead that the dead can hear His voice, it doesn't mean they were awake before He talked to them. Many saints came out of the grave, does that mean they were the only ones spoken to, if all in the graves were preached to did they fall asleep again when Jesus left. This may also be the answer about those who died on crosses that same day, they went to the same place and could have heard Jesus on that very day, the day paradise was where the dead lay.

2 Corinthians 5:7
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
Work to please him in or out of our bodies. Means we are awake.
If a few other verse are also considered then the meaning also changes just a bit. All Apostles were baptised with the Holy Spirit and they could 'hear Christ', what they desired was to 'see Him';
2Co:5:5:
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co:5:6:
Therefore we are always confident,
knowing that,
whilst we are at home in the body,
we are absent from the Lord:
2Co:5:7:
(For we walk by faith,
not by sight:)

Even with the Holy Spirit they were absent from being able to see Him. Going to sleep untill resurrected would not interfer with that desire to see Him.


Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
They are awake before the thrones without flesh and we saw their souls under the alter before this time. We see the Rich Man awake before the still future Second Resurrection.
It doesn't say they were awake, it might indicate he could see how many were there, Ch:10 might explain this a bit more for you, their names are probably in the little book, sweet because they are there, bitter because it is a short list compared to all that have lived.


Matthew 17
1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Moses was very much dead. A spirit here.

It was a vision, I have no doubts that when Christ does appear as stated they will be there talking with Him.


So, soul sleep does not exist in the Bible.
One area it may impact is this verse;
Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This would seem to be a common judgement that seperates who will and who will not be alive for the thousand years.
For this next verse it would also be tied to the above but about the rewards to all those who will be in the thousand years and the fate of those who will not;

Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Without a common sleep for all then these sort of loose meaning, as it does include some who are dead by this time and some who are now dead.

Hopefully there is something new in the above.

Later.

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core, this is the shorter of the subjects, that is the only reason I will respond to this one first.
This is a doctrine held to mainly by cults.
I don't belong to any cult, other than the one that is about peace and grace.

No problem on doing this one.

It is dangerous in the sense it perverts many other doctrines of the Bible. And forces adherents to spiritualize literal verses on the issue.
I'm not quite sure how you see this being so. To me it simple means if one dies before the second coming it is like a period of sleep, without dreams. You fall asleep and then you are awake, unaware of the time that has passed since you fell asleep. This would also apply for some of 'the rest' those who only death holds as those in hell are fully aware of where they are.
If there is any danger in this it is that once a person has a view on 'soul sleep' being not true and later would want to accept that some Scriptures do point a person being asleep then they might also have to closely examine other beliefs they also hold.

It is dangerous because it requires one to either totally ignore, spiritualize or attempt to apply verses that declare it false as meaning something else, as you do.

There are a range of meanings applied, from completely ceasing to exist as a person to our flesh being our souls/spirit and we totally shut down as a person, sleeping. We are not aware again until God, again a range, recreates us or resurrections our bodies, than reanimating us.
Do you mean like in this verse:
M't:27:52:
And the graves were opened;
and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

This would seem to be the return of the breath of life to the same dust that was alive before this same spirit left them in the first place.

Yes. A good example.

These people never truly died, since their spirits never left them. If their spirits left them they would have been resurrected. But they were not, since Christ is the ONLY person resurrected to date.

If they had truly died their spirts, very much awake, would have been in Paradise.

You have the flesh as key to our existence, when it is not.

And that corrupts other Biblical issues, such as the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Instead of him in-dwelling our spirits which are us with flesh, you have him indwelling sinful flesh that rots in the grave.

The Bible does say he will never depart from us.

But that is just not Biblical.
We shall see.

It is very clearly spelled out in the Bible our spirits do not sleep. Our flesh does.

We are beings of flesh, spirit and mind/soul. Spirit does not mean we live. It is the very heart and essence of who and what we are.

While they have verses they claim teach this, they are, in fact, taking them out of context or misinterpreting them.
Again we shall see.

Spelled out very clearly.

There are verses make it very clear our spirits and bodies are two different things, our spirits do not sleep and spirit does not simply mean life force, essence of life or breath of God in us, that returns to God.
The breath of life doesn't sleep,

Our spirits are not breaths of life. Angels are sole spirit, in example.

Our spirts are us, who and what we are.
it is our body that sleeps.
Sleeps, as in rots in the ground.
The question is, are our thoughts and memories concious in that spirit,
Yes. I gave verse proving that fact.

Christ did not preach to dead bodies nor unaware engergy balls. Those under the Alter and before the throne are spirits, but very much active, thinking, feeling and aware.

They posses soul, meaning independent and conscience being in and of themselves.

The flesh is but a vessel, a container, a carrier. Very clearly states as on more by Paul.
more importantly are new thoughts and memories made while this spirit is away from the body.
Absolutely! Christ preached to the spirits in Paradise and the considered and accepted him.

Lazarus lay dead for four days, certainly this would be enough time for new experiences to be aquired, none were spoken about by him.

Lazarus was not dead yet. His spirit was retained in him, thus why Christ said he slept and was not dead.

Here are two key verses they use as proof of soul sleep.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
But note what it says, in context, with the context being in this eartly realm.

It says the living know they will die, the bodies of the dead know nothing and will recieve no more rewards, on this earth and they are forgotten by the living.

How do we know it means this? Because the spirits of the dead know where they are, they will receive their rewards when judged and they are not forgotten by God and those around them.
One thing not mentioned in the above is that there is no seperation of the righteous from the wicked, this would indicate that the breath of life from all men returns to God.

Oh, no. Don't go running off topic. Stay on context.

And context is the dead in relationship to the living on earth. You point non-contextual and thus invalid. You are trying to explain it away.
Isn't one of the cornerstones is that only the righteous 'see' Heaven? If the spirit contains 'all the person knew' then there are some that are in Heaven that, well, it is said of them that they won't get there before Judgement day.
Stay on topic. And the context is regarding the dead to the still living on the earth. Not about Heaven at all.

You cannot keep running away from context.

Do these verses support that view;
Psalms:115:12:
The LORD hath been mindful of us:
he will bless us;
he will bless the house of Israel;
he will bless the house of Aaron.
Psalms:115:13:
He will bless them that fear the LORD,
both small and great.
Psalms:115:14:
The LORD shall increase you more and more,
you and your children.
Psalms:115:15:
Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth.
Psalms:115:16:
The heaven,
even the heavens,
are the LORD's:
but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Psalms:115:17:
The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.
Psalms:115:18:
But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore.
Praise the LORD.

It supports what I said, yes! The context is those living on the earth, not in Heaven.

While the time this refers to is after Israel has been resurrected and the dead could be 'the rest' they are not the first to go into silence, even the ones, before this was written, that had died and had gone into silence.

Totally false. It is about those living on the earth back then.

Psalms:146:2:
While I live will I praise the LORD:
I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
Psalms:146:3:
Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man,
in whom there is no help.
Psalms:146:4:
His breath goeth forth,
he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.

Earthly context again. Breath leaving the body. Not the spirit.
This would seem to the seperation of the living soul into it's two components, dust of the earth and the breath of God, each being in different places.
No! When a person dies their breath leaves them in a long exhalation. That is air, not spirit.
The two groups below indicate some go to hell and others appear to be sleeping;

Eze:32:26:
There is Meshech,
Tubal,
and all her multitude:
her graves are round about him:
all of them uncircumcised,
slain by the sword,
though they caused their terror in the land of the living.
Eze:32:27:
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised,
which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war:
and they have laid their swords under their heads,
but their iniquities shall be upon their bones,
though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Earthly context again!

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Here they say our souls die and go to dust and our life force returns to God.

It does not say that. Yes, our spirits come from God, but no, they are more then a life force. They are us.
That would be our living soul. A person can be a good soul or a bad soul, the breath of life does not decide who will be what, it only gives life.
They both have to be in the same place for a living soul to exist;

Nonsense. Never said in the Bible. We see spirits in Paradise, in Heaven and before thrones. Very much awake and NOT in the flesh.

Ge:2:7:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.

Soul here means a complete being. Not the flesh is all in all to our existence.

When God spoke to Job later in this book He did correct Job on some things and asked some questions about just how much Job knew about Him, these words were not mentioned then and should have been if Job was speaking in error;

Job:14:12:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job:14:13:
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
Job:14:14:
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Job:14:15:
Thou shalt call,
and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job:14:16:
For now thou numberest my steps:
dost thou not watch over my sin?
Job:14:17:
My transgression is sealed up in a bag,
and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
Job:14:18:
And surely the mountain falling cometh to nought,
and the rock is removed out of his place.
Job:14:19:
The waters wear the stones:
thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth;
and thou destroyest the hope of man.
Job:14:20:
Thou prevailest for ever against him,
and he passeth:
thou changest his countenance,
and sendest him away.
Job:14:21:
His sons come to honour,
and he knoweth it not;
and they are brought low,
but he perceiveth it not of them.
Job:14:22:
But his flesh upon him shall have pain,
and his soul within him shall mourn.

He speaks of flesh and spirit reality. Verse 22 acknowledges the reality of our flesh not being our souls.

If the soul is the breath of life why would it mourn if it is back with God in a concious state, surely the life that existed for this person while in the flesh would be less than being in God's presence.

The soul is not the breath of life. As Job recognizes, it is the him within his flesh.

You make too many theories that are based on non-literally reading.

Now for versus that show us very much alive and awake out of our bodies.
Revelation 6:9-10
9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
They are very much dead. Not resurrected yet.
And in what state were they in before this vision and what state will they be in after this vision;
Re:6:11:
And white robes were given unto every one of them;
and it was said unto them,
that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren,
that should be killed as they were,
should be fulfilled.

If they are told to 'rest yet' for a little season is that like being asleep, if it says that, were they also asleep before they were seen under the altar?

No! You keep stopping where it suits your doctrine. They are very much awake with those coming out of the Great Trib.

Rest does not mean sleep:
Strong's Number: 373 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=373&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originajnapauvwfrom (303 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=303&version=kjv)) and (3973 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3973&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=373&version=kjv#Legend) EntryAnapauo1:350,56Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechan-ap-ow'-o http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=0373g) Verb Definition
to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labour in order to recover and collect his strength
to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest
to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectation
Again, you have assumed meaning based on doctrine, not facts.

Revelation 7
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Why do you not think of Judgement Day here, when no man is anyplace but before the throne, some for chastisement, others being presented to God as priests and kings?
Great tribulation comes after tribulation and is exclusively the vials.


Because this is at Mid. The Bowls are not yet poured and the Second Coming is yet to be.

And they most assuredly are not at Judgment Day. The saints do not get judged, they get rewarded.

More saints die in the GT. More saints are born and die in the MK. As well as more evil people.

You are 1,000 years too early for Judgement Day.

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Again, very much dead. Not Resurrected until the Second Coming.
See just above.

Same answer.


[quote]Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31;&version=31;#fen-NIV-25636a)] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Very dead. One in Paradise and one in Hell. Before Christ even died.
I don't deny the ones who will be in hell are aware of where they are. How much did Lazarus say in these verses, he seems to be being held, like a sleeping child.

No. He is very much awake, as is Abraham, who is also very much dead and active here.
1 Peter 3:18-19
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18-19;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428a)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
They have to we awake to be preached to.
It is quite clear from the ones that Jesus did raise from the dead that the dead can hear His voice, it doesn't mean they were awake before He talked to them. Many saints came out of the grave, does that mean they were the only ones spoken to, if all in the graves were preached to did they fall asleep again when Jesus left. This may also be the answer about those who died on crosses that same day, they went to the same place and could have heard Jesus on that very day, the day paradise was where the dead lay.

2 Corinthians 5:7
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
Work to please him in or out of our bodies. Means we are awake.
If a few other verse are also considered then the meaning also changes just a bit. All Apostles were baptised with the Holy Spirit and they could 'hear Christ', what they desired was to 'see Him';
2Co:5:5:
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co:5:6:
Therefore we are always confident,
knowing that,
whilst we are at home in the body,
we are absent from the Lord:
2Co:5:7:
(For we walk by faith,
not by sight:)

Even with the Holy Spirit they were absent from being able to see Him. Going to sleep untill resurrected would not interfer with that desire to see Him.

It say we are not our bodies. Our spirit are not mere breathes of life. They are us.

It says we will try to please him whether in or out of our bodies. To make the effort out of our bodies we must be very much awake.

You continually discard what you don't like said.

All the verses I have posted show spirits very much awake, thinking and active. Whether

Revelation 20
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
They are awake before the thrones without flesh and we saw their souls under the alter before this time. We see the Rich Man awake before the still future Second Resurrection.
It doesn't say they were awake, it might indicate he could see how many were there,

Singing, standing, praising, listening and more. But they are not awake?

You are really blinding yourself to simple literal words.

Ch:10 might explain this a bit more for you, their names are probably in the little book, sweet because they are there, bitter because it is a short list compared to all that have lived.

And that is suppose to explain it all away?

And no. Their names are not in the little book.


Matthew 17
1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Moses was very much dead. A spirit here.

It was a vision, I have no doubts that when Christ does appear as stated they will be there talking with Him.

It is not a vision. They were there. It says they were there.

So, soul sleep does not exist in the Bible.
One area it may impact is this verse;
Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The body sleeps in the dust. Not the spirit. Evil go to Hell and saints, at that time, went to Paradise.

You keep trying to define our bodies as our souls and our spirits as the life force in them. That is false.

This would seem to be a common judgement that seperates who will and who will not be alive for the thousand years.

They are not judged before the White Throne.

For this next verse it would also be tied to the above but about the rewards to all those who will be in the thousand years and the fate of those who will not;

Re:11:18:
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Yes, the day of the Lord encompasses all those things. And it last 1,000 years. Not a single 24 hour day.

Without a common sleep for all then these sort of loose meaning, as it does include some who are dead by this time and some who are now dead.

Nothing loose about it. You are failing to distinquish between flesh and spiritual realities. And doing exactly what I said was dangerous, as in trying to spin meanings to you doctrine and away from literal words and defintions.

Hopefully there is something new in the above.

Not really. What I expected.

You are not literal. You do not use proper word defintions and do not use proper grammar.

Not trying to be insulting or anything. But it is a fact.

You would do far better using other than the KJV and start using a Lexicon to get word meanings correct.

Later.

Later. Have a good one.

[MHz]

These people never truly died, since their spirits never left them. If their spirits left them they would have been resurrected. But they were not, since Christ is the ONLY person resurrected to date.
Resurrected and ascended to Heaven, that is how Christ was different from the others;
Re:1:5:
And from Jesus Christ,
who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Joh:3:13:
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The day of resurrection was set long before, even Job knew about it, just not which day.

Is this the moment of death for Jesus;
M't:27:50:
Jesus,
when he had cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost.

M'r:15:37:
And Jesus cried with a loud voice,
and gave up the ghost.

M'r:15:39:
And when the centurion,
which stood over against him,
saw that he so cried out,
and gave up the ghost,
he said,
Truly this man was the Son of God.

Lu:23:46:
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,
he said,
Father,
into thy hands I commend my spirit:
and having said thus,
he gave up the ghost.

It was after this he was taken to his burial place. You have OT saints who have been in the graves, some for hundreds of years likely, still not being dead, that is where the dead are, in graves. You are doing something terribly wrong if you put somebody not totally dead in a grave.



Lazarus was not dead yet. His spirit was retained in him, thus why Christ said he slept and was not dead.

If Jesus said he was dead that's good enough for me:

Joh:11:11:
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,
Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;
but I go,
that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh:11:12:
Then said his disciples,
Lord,
if he sleep,
he shall do well.
Joh:11:13:
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death:
but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh:11:14:
Then said Jesus unto them plainly,
Lazarus is dead.

Now his body in decay after four days;
Joh:11:39:
Jesus said,
Take ye away the stone.
Martha,
the sister of him that was dead,
saith unto him,
Lord,
by this time he stinketh:
for he hath been dead four days.

Martha also understood that there was to be a day in which she would come back to life, there is no mention of being in Heaven during the time her body lay in death:
Joh:11:24:
Martha saith unto him,
I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh:11:25:
Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection,
and the life:
he that believeth in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:
Joh:11:26:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
Joh:11:27:
She saith unto him,
Yea,
Lord:
I believe that thou art the Christ,
the Son of God,
which should come into the world.


One thing not mentioned in the above is that there is no seperation of the righteous from the wicked, this would indicate that the breath of life from all men returns to God.
[/quote]
Oh, no. Don't go running off topic. Stay on context.[/QUOTE]
This responce should have been for the verse that says the spirit which came from God returns to God. It still covers all men, righteous or not.

Yes, our spirits come from God, but no, they are more then a life force. They are us.
So you have memories from when that spirit was in Heaven but before it was combinded with your current fleshy body right?


Rest does not mean sleep:
Christ has used rest to mean sleep, I doubt He has changed that;
M't:26:45:
Then cometh he to his disciples,
and saith unto them,
Sleep on now,
and take your rest:
behold,
the hour is at hand,
and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

M'r:14:41:
And he cometh the third time,
and saith unto them,
Sleep on now,
and take your rest:
it is enough,
the hour is come;
behold,
the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

If you read Thayer's Lexicon on this site it says the same thing,
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1154930084-6780.html

No. He is very much awake, as is Abraham, who is also very much dead and active here.
Then why were the Angels carrying him and where are there any words spoken by him?
Was the rich man a Jew?


They have to we awake to be preached to.
You only have to be able to hear his voice, and since he can call the dead back to life we also know they do hear his voice, yet are not awake for they are still in their prision.


You continually discard what you don't like said.
Not without at least a few verses.


Singing, standing, praising, listening and more. But they are not awake?
If all these things can be done without a body then what purpose is the body for, especially the one promised that will be eternal? Like in these verses;
Re:15:2:
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass,
having the harps of God.
Re:15:3:
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb,
saying,
Great and marvellous are thy works,
Lord God Almighty;
just and true are thy ways,
thou King of saints.
Re:15:4:
Who shall not fear thee,
O Lord, and glorify thy name?
for thou only art holy:
for all nations shall come and worship before thee;
for thy judgments are made manifest.

Do the above have bodies with which the sing with and play music with?



It is not a vision. They were there. It says they were there.
There one moment and gone the next, Jesus says it was a vision;
M'r:9:8:
And suddenly,
when they had looked round about,
they saw no man any more,
save Jesus only with themselves.

M't:17:5:
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.
M't:17:6:
And when the disciples heard it,
they fell on their face,
and were sore afraid.
M't:17:7:
And Jesus came and touched them,
and said,
Arise,
and be not afraid.
M't:17:8:
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man,
save Jesus only.
M't:17:9:
And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them,
saying,
Tell the vision to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

You keep trying to define our bodies as our souls and our spirits as the life force in them. That is false.


No our bodies are the containers that can hold the breath of life, those two together make a living soul. What occurs during the time the two are together define what kind of soul we are.

You would do far better using other than the KJV and start using a Lexicon to get word meanings correct.

I posted one above from Thayer's, I hold little hope you will pay attention to the words in it that say sleep and rest have the same meaning, even if they were spoken by Christ.
Later. Have a good one.

Yep, you too.
Later

[CoreIssue]

These people never truly died, since their spirits never left them. If their spirits left them they would have been resurrected. But they were not, since Christ is the ONLY person resurrected to date.
Resurrected and ascended to Heaven, that is how Christ was different from the others;
Re:1:5:
And from Jesus Christ,
who is the faithful witness,
and the first begotten of the dead,
and the prince of the kings of the earth.
Unto him that loved us,
and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Joh:3:13:
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The day of resurrection was set long before, even Job knew about it, just not which day.

Is this the moment of death for Jesus;
M't:27:50:
Jesus,
when he had cried again with a loud voice,
yielded up the ghost.

M'r:15:37:
And Jesus cried with a loud voice,
and gave up the ghost.

M'r:15:39:
And when the centurion,
which stood over against him,
saw that he so cried out,
and gave up the ghost,
he said,
Truly this man was the Son of God.

Lu:23:46:
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,
he said,
Father,
into thy hands I commend my spirit:
and having said thus,
he gave up the ghost.

It was after this he was taken to his burial place. You have OT saints who have been in the graves, some for hundreds of years likely, still not being dead, that is where the dead are, in graves. You are doing something terribly wrong if you put somebody not totally dead in a grave.

You don't get it.

These were recent dead. Not long dead.


The spirits of the long dead were in Paradise with their bodies in graves.

Lazarus was not dead yet. His spirit was retained in him, thus why Christ said he slept and was not dead.

If Jesus said he was dead that's good enough for me:

His spirit had not left yet.

If not so, you are talking resurrection and not just rising.

Joh:11:11:
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them,
Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;
but I go,
that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh:11:12:
Then said his disciples,
Lord,
if he sleep,
he shall do well.
Joh:11:13:
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death:
but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh:11:14:
Then said Jesus unto them plainly,
Lazarus is dead.

His spirit had not left. His body was dead. So, he slept.

This is not true death. God stopped true death from happening.

Now his body in decay after four days;
Joh:11:39:
Jesus said,
Take ye away the stone.
Martha,
the sister of him that was dead,
saith unto him,
Lord,
by this time he stinketh:
for he hath been dead four days.

God healed the body. His spirit had not left so to say he died was physically true but to say he slept was also true, since he had not experienced true and final death.

Like someone a doctor resusitates. Their bodies are dead, but their spirits are still there, thus the body can be 'restarted.'

Martha also understood that there was to be a day in which she would come back to life, there is no mention of being in Heaven during the time her body lay in death:
Joh:11:24:
Martha saith unto him,
I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh:11:25:
Jesus said unto her,
I am the resurrection,
and the life:
he that believeth in me,
though he were dead,
yet shall he live:
Joh:11:26:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
Joh:11:27:
She saith unto him,
Yea,
Lord:
I believe that thou art the Christ,
the Son of God,
which should come into the world.

Which does not prove Soul Sleep.
One thing not mentioned in the above is that there is no seperation of the
righteous from the wicked, this would indicate that the breath of life from all men returns to God.

Oh, no. Don't go running off topic. Stay on context.[/quote]
This responce should have been for the verse that says the spirit which came from God returns to God. It still covers all men, righteous or not.

Yes, our spirits come from God, but no, they are more then a life force. They are us.
So you have memories from when that spirit was in Heaven but before it was combinded with your current fleshy body right?
[/quote]
This is getting absurd. Not you are talking preexistence of the spirit on top of all these other errors.

This well to deep into some heavily defined, already existing doctrines that have been around a long time.

What group did you get these from?

Rest does not mean sleep:
Christ has used rest to mean sleep, I doubt He has changed that;

It also means physical death. And is si used to mean death in the NT by the Apostles and more.

This angle does not defend Soul Sleep.


If you read Thayer's Lexicon on this site it says the same thing,
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/3/1154930084-6780.html

It does not say sleep in the definition. It says rest.

No. He is very much awake, as is Abraham, who is also very much dead and active here.
Then why were the Angels carrying him and where are there any words spoken by him?
Was the rich man a Jew?

Carried because that is how he got there. He did not just go there on his own.

The Rich Man is very much awake. And asks the Lazarus bring water. A big request for one locked in sleep.

I would give odds the Rich Man was a Jews, which is meaningless to the issue.

They have to we awake to be preached to.
You only have to be able to hear his voice, and since he can call the dead back to life we also know they do hear his voice, yet are not awake for they are still in their prision.

Which means you have to be awake.

Their spirits are in Paradise, not graves.

You continually discard what you don't like said.
Not without at least a few verses.

Foolish demand.

God does not have to speak multiple times before it is true.

It is not a contest of most verses claimed wins.

Singing, standing, praising, listening and more. But they are not awake?
If all these things can be done without a body then what purpose is the body for, especially the one promised that will be eternal?

Ask God. He never explained it.

But, it says at the White Throne, all will be without excuse. To be without excuse, there must be alternatives dealt with that bars them from saying to Christ, "If only..."

So, God created an eternal company of spirit beings, angels, eternal company of flesh beings, Pre-Adamics, as shown in the 4 Living Creatures and a race of beings who are mortal with eternal spirits that can become immortal flesh and spirits, Man.

He covered the, "What if..."

But the Rich Man is most assuredly standing, awake, talking, thirsty and so on. With no flesh body.

Those under the Alter and before the Throne are very active without flesh.

When the prophet arose and confronted the King, he was very much humanoid in appearance. And stood, gestured, walked, talked and so on.

He arose as a spirit, not flesh.

Moses, in the NT, was very active, but a spirit.

The Trib Saints standing before the Thrones, at the Second Coming, are spirts. They are very much standing and so on.

No. Passage after passage denies you. But you just keep trying to explain them away.

Oh, yes. The Rich Man's spirit did not return to God. It went to Hell. All the spirits of the lost come out of Hell, not from God, at the White Throne.

No. you are just refusing to see what is said.

Like in these verses;
Re:15:2:
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire:
and them that had gotten the victory over the beast,
and over his image,
and over his mark,
and over the number of his name,
stand on the sea of glass,
having the harps of God.
Re:15:3:
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb,
saying,
Great and marvellous are thy works,
Lord God Almighty;
just and true are thy ways,
thou King of saints.
Re:15:4:
Who shall not fear thee,
O Lord, and glorify thy name?
for thou only art holy:
for all nations shall come and worship before thee;
for thy judgments are made manifest.

Do the above have bodies with which the sing with and play music with?

The angels are complete spirit beings. The 4 Living are flesh. The Pre-Trib resurrected have glorified flesh and the Trib saints are spirits.

Why are you trying to force laws of physics on what is not of the flesh universe?


It is not a vision. They were there. It says they were there.
There one moment and gone the next, Jesus says it was a vision;
M'r:9:8:
And suddenly,
when they had looked round about,
they saw no man any more,
save Jesus only with themselves.

M't:17:5:
While he yet spake,
behold,
a bright cloud overshadowed them:
and behold a voice out of the cloud,
which said,
This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased;
hear ye him.
M't:17:6:
And when the disciples heard it,
they fell on their face,
and were sore afraid.
M't:17:7:
And Jesus came and touched them,
and said,
Arise,
and be not afraid.
M't:17:8:
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man,
save Jesus only.
M't:17:9:
And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them,
saying,
Tell the vision to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

You keep trying to define our bodies as our souls and our spirits as the life force in them. That is false.

Strong's Number: 3705 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=3705&version=kjv)Original WordWord Origino&ramafrom (3708 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3708&version=kjv))Transliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3705&version=kjv#Legend) EntryHorama5:371,706Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhor'-am-ah http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=3705g) Noun Neuter Definition

that which is seen, spectacle
a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

NIV
9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

They were neither asleep or in exstasy when they say thing.

It means a real event seen with there flesh eyes.


No our bodies are the containers that can hold the breath of life, those two together make a living soul. What occurs during the time the two are together define what kind of soul we are.

You would do far better using other than the KJV and start using a Lexicon to get word meanings correct.

I posted one above from Thayer's, I hold little hope you will pay attention to the words in it that say sleep and rest have the same meaning, even if they were spoken by Christ.


And in reading, it did not say sleep or death. It said rest.

Later.

[Jessie]

With those that are dead in the trib. why do they wait to be resurected?
they have to wait.... is it because the church is with Jesus and where do they go until they are resurected?

[CoreIssue]

With those that are dead in the trib. why do they wait to be resurected?
they have to wait.... is it because the church is with Jesus and where do they go until they are resurected?
The Church resurrects when its time is done. Not Until.

OT Israel resurrects with them. As do all the prior saints who were neither Church or Israel.

The Trib Saints are a different group. They have a special role to play in the MK and are not resurrected until the Second Coming, when their numbers are completed.

No groups resurrect until their groups are complete.

The MK group is also separate. We see another Rapture at the End of the MK, meaning another resurrection.

But ALL of these resurrections are on one day, the DOTL and are all part of the First Resurrection, which in includes all saints who every lived.

[MHz]

Hi Jessie,
With those that are dead in the trib. why do they wait to be resurected?
they have to wait.... is it because the church is with Jesus and where do they go until they are resurected?
They go to the grave.
There are a few verses that would indicate only the ones who didn't know Christ before the trib begins are in danger, the way Daniel explains it it isn't clear if the ones doing the teaching or the ones being taught are the ones who will die, it seems unlikely it will be both;
Da:11:32:
And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong,
and do exploits.
Da:11:33:
And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
yet they shall fall by the sword,
and by flame,
by captivity,
and by spoil,
many days.
Da:11:34:
Now when they shall fall,
they shall be holpen with a little help:
but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Da:11:35:
And some of them of understanding shall fall,
to try them,
and to purge,
and to make them white,
even to the time of the end:
because it is yet for a time appointed.

Perhaps an even better option(prayer on your own) is from an OT text that will apply to a coming time is from these verses, key words being 'latter days';
De:4:29:
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
De:4:30:
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
De:4:31:
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

While the above was written to God's people, Israel, at this time Gentiles of all nations are now privy to prayers being heard.

I realize these next verses are not pre-trib, but they are Scripture. Make up your own mind;

Joh:6:39:
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh:6:40:
And this is the will of him that sent me,
that every one which seeth the Son,
and believeth on him,
may have everlasting life:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh:6:44:
No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh:6:54:
Whoso eateth my flesh,
and drinketh my blood,
hath eternal life;
and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh:11:24:
Martha saith unto him,
I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh:12:48:
He that rejecteth me,
and receiveth not my words,
hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken,
the same shall judge him in the last day.

Have faith in God

[MHz]

Hi Core,

And in reading, it did not say sleep or death. It said rest.

14 lines down it does say that, it is what it says, even without the Lexicon you are dismissing Jesus's words that have sleep and rest being in the very same verse. Killed as they were means they are dead.
You have these being trib saints, even before Satan is cast to the Earth

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,

And in reading, it did not say sleep or death. It said rest.

14 lines down it does say that, it is what it says, even without the Lexicon you are dismissing Jesus's words that have sleep and rest being in the very same verse. Killed as they were means they are dead.
You have these being trib saints, even before Satan is cast to the Earth

Later

Please define these things for me. I don't need verses, just what you believe they are:
Spirit
Flesh
Soul
Mind

That will help a lot.

[MHz]

Hi Core,Hi Core,

And in reading, it did not say sleep or death. It said rest.

14 lines down it does say that, it is what it says, even without the Lexicon you are dismissing Jesus's words that have sleep and rest being in the very same verse. Killed as they were means they are dead.
You have these being trib saints, even before Satan is cast to the Earth

Later

Please define these things for me. I don't need verses, just what you believe they are:
Spirit
Flesh
Soul
Mind

That will help a lot.
Spirit- breath of life from God
Flesh-for man our bodies, other forms of flesh also contain the above breath, only man has the knowledge of good and evil. That evil is so widespread would indicate little reguard to if one is better than the other.
Soul- the combonation of the above two, in the same place at the same time.
Mind- the experiences and knowledge aquire when the first two above are in the same place at the same time.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Please define these things for me. I don't need verses, just what you believe they are:
Spirit
Flesh
Soul
Mind

That will help a lot.

Spirit- breath of life from God
Flesh-for man our bodies, other forms of flesh also contain the above breath, only man has the knowledge of good and evil. That evil is so widespread would indicate little reguard to if one is better than the other.
Soul- the combonation of the above two, in the same place at the same time.
Mind- the experiences and knowledge aquire when the first two above are in the same place at the same time.

Thanks. My counter point.
Spirit - The eternal essence containing who and what we are. Non-corporial. In all references, in the Bible, shaped like our human form.
Flesh - The physical container/vehicle in which our spirits dwell. Earthly animals have no spirits.
Soul - Multiple meanings. Sometimes refering our sum total, which incluces body, spirit and mind when in the flesh. Spirit and mind when out of body.
Mind - When in the flesh, where the inputs of the body and spirit are processed. Holds our memories, personalities and all that is our essential us. When spirit only, there is no flesh input to the mind.

We have some major differences there. Thus, we cannot agree on other doctrines, that have the issues functional, within them, until we iron them out.

Our differences on mind heavily impact Soul Sleep discussion, in example.

Thanks, again.

[Jessie]

With those that are dead in the trib. why do they wait to be resurected?
they have to wait.... is it because the church is with Jesus and where do they go until they are resurected?
The Church resurrects when its time is done. Not Until.

OT Israel resurrects with them. As do all the prior saints who were neither Church or Israel.

The Trib Saints are a different group. They have a special role to play in the MK and are not resurrected until the Second Coming, when their numbers are completed.

No groups resurrect until their groups are complete.

The MK group is also separate. We see another Rapture at the End of the MK, meaning another resurrection.

But ALL of these resurrections are on one day, the DOTL and are all part of the First Resurrection, which in includes all saints who every lived.

If I am disturbing the thread maybe we can start another one...

what role do trib saints play in the MK?
and another rapture at the end of the MK?

[MHz]

If I am disturbing the thread maybe we can start another one...



Disturb all you want, it isn't like I've ever been on a thread that stayed totally on subject. Actually this is one responce I'm looking foreward to reading.

For myself, that 'third' rapture is the first one that takes living men and women to Heaven.

The trib saints are almost the very same as all the resurrected and those who are alive and gathered at the end of the vials. They live with Christ for the thousand years, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. Even in the new Earth, Christ is with them at all times. As priests and kings to God and the Lamb they would 'host' the yearly feast (as I have no indication that ever ends) when those who are outside the Hew Jerusalem come for that feast.

Later

[CoreIssue]

With those that are dead in the trib. why do they wait to be resurected?
they have to wait.... is it because the church is with Jesus and where do they go until they are resurected?
The Church resurrects when its time is done. Not Until.

OT Israel resurrects with them. As do all the prior saints who were neither Church or Israel.

The Trib Saints are a different group. They have a special role to play in the MK and are not resurrected until the Second Coming, when their numbers are completed.

No groups resurrect until their groups are complete.

The MK group is also separate. We see another Rapture at the End of the MK, meaning another resurrection.

But ALL of these resurrections are on one day, the DOTL and are all part of the First Resurrection, which in includes all saints who every lived.

If I am disturbing the thread maybe we can start another one...

what role do trib saints play in the MK?
and another rapture at the end of the MK?
With all respect to MHz, please start separate threads. Those are totally unrelated to soul sleep.

[CoreIssue]

If I am disturbing the thread maybe we can start another one...



Disturb all you want, it isn't like I've ever been on a thread that stayed totally on subject. Actually this is one responce I'm looking foreward to reading.

For myself, that 'third' rapture is the first one that takes living men and women to Heaven.

The trib saints are almost the very same as all the resurrected and those who are alive and gathered at the end of the vials. They live with Christ for the thousand years, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. Even in the new Earth, Christ is with them at all times. As priests and kings to God and the Lamb they would 'host' the yearly feast (as I have no indication that ever ends) when those who are outside the Hew Jerusalem come for that feast.

Later
Hang on until Jessie starts new threads.

Let this thread remain Soul Sleep.

I know you are more comfortable mixing all issues together. But that is not productive.

[CoreIssue]

Hey MHz,

Paul clearly says our flesh bodies are vessels that contain us, no more than that. They are not us.

He also says we can leave our bodies and function without them.

Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man most assuredly had bodies in graves. But their spirits most assuredly were not in the grave.

We see them very much awake, thinking, moving and feeling. They have a conversation that shows recognition and consideration of where they were, what it meant and what it meant to others, still on the earth.

Moses appeared to Christ. He was very much moving, thinking, speaking and so on. But his body was in a grave while his spirit was standing there.

That denies your doctrine completely.

Your error is in your defining of body, spirit, soul and mind.

[MHz]

Hi Core,
Which one has Lazarus doing or saying anything?
Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,
Which one has Lazarus doing or saying anything?
Later
Why do you keep inventing arguments?

Abraham and the Rich Man are talking. The Rich Man is thirsty from the flames of Hell. Both are thinking and feeling.

They are very much awake, not in the grave and are spirits.

Their spirits did not return to God. The Rich Man's is in Hell and Abraham, plus Lazarus, was in Paradise.

This refutes you doctrine. As does Moses appearing to Christ. As does Christ preaching to the spirits in the Pit.

You cannot get around this.

[MHz]

Hi Core,Hey MHz,

Paul clearly says our flesh bodies are vessels that contain us, no more than that. They are not us.

He also says we can leave our bodies and function without them.

Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich Man most assuredly had bodies in graves. But their spirits most assuredly were not in the grave.

We see them very much awake, thinking, moving and feeling. They have a conversation that shows recognition and consideration of where they were, what it meant and what it meant to others, still on the earth.

Moses appeared to Christ. He was very much moving, thinking, speaking and so on. But his body was in a grave while his spirit was standing there.

That denies your doctrine completely.

Your error is in your defining of body, spirit, soul and mind.

Lazarus and the rich man were not real people, they were in a parable used to teach something.

On the mountain the vision that was seen was from the future, they will talk with Christ just as shown, when they are resurrected which is after Christ again appears just as He was in this vision.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Lazarus and the rich man were not real people, they were in a parable used to teach something.
Parable or real, it taught a reality. And that reality is there is no soul sleep.

Christ did not use lies to teach truths.
On the mountain the vision that was seen was from the future, they will talk with Christ just as shown, when they are resurrected which is after Christ again appears just as He was in this vision.
And where did you get this gem from? What an invention.

They were neither asleep or in ecstasy. That means they saw it real time.

When on has to keep inventing explanations to get around the readily presented statements their doctrine is false.

I am not inventing things. Just reading at face value. You are having to come up with non-stated explanations in every issue to try to escape reality.

As with the spirits under the Alter and coming out of Trib. Both are shown as before the Second Coming, in fact at Mid Trib. You have to try pull apart the words and change their order to make them fit.

Way too much convoluted working at these things. God did not give us such a mess as you are presenting.

[MHz]

Lazarus and the rich man were not real people, they were in a parable used to teach something.
Parable or real, it taught a reality. And that reality is there is no soul sleep.
So you can hear all those who are in hell, all the time between the time you die and when you recieve glorified bodies?

Christ did not use lies to teach truths.
On the mountain the vision that was seen was from the future, they will talk with Christ just as shown, when they are resurrected which is after Christ again appears just as He was in this vision.

And where did you get this gem from? What an invention.
They were neither asleep or in ecstasy. That means they saw it real time.
When on has to keep inventing explanations to get around the readily presented statements their doctrine is false.
And the reason Moses didn't come down off the mountains is ..what?

I am not inventing things. Just reading at face value. You are having to come up with non-stated explanations in every issue to try to escape reality.
Not everything needs to be stated, like two woes are from the beast, he is given a certain time limit, 42 months. The first woe takes 5 months, that would seem to leave 37 for the second. Satan has his 'little season' after the beast has been in the Lake for a thousand years. You give Satan 3 1/2 years after the Beast and still have him have his 'little season'. By anyones standards this is two whacks at mankind he has.

As with the spirits under the Alter and coming out of Trib. Both are shown as before the Second Coming, in fact at Mid Trib. You have to try pull apart the words and change their order to make them fit.
So mid trib is the 5th seal, Ch:15, the two witnesses dieing, oh, and the last part of Ch:7, if I understand you correctly.

Way too much convoluted working at these things. God did not give us such a mess as you are presenting.
And yours is the simple approach, like the above summation?

Later

[CoreIssue]

So you can hear all those who are in hell, all the time between the time you die and when you recieve glorified bodies?
The Bible indicates those in Paradise and those in Hell could see and hear each other. If I had to guess, I would say those in Heaven and Hell can see what is happening of the earth.

They are spirits and not bound by our rules.

On the mountain the vision that was seen was from the future, they will talk with Christ just as shown, when they are resurrected which is after Christ again appears just as He was in this vision.

And where did you get this gem from? What an invention.
They were neither asleep or in ecstasy. That means they saw it real time.
When on has to keep inventing explanations to get around the readily presented statements their doctrine is false.
And the reason Moses didn't come down off the mountains is ..what?

Historically, because he died. At that time because his purpose was complete and he went back to Heaven.

Why do you keep inventing pointless arguments? Why should he come off the mountain?

He didn't climb up it, but appeared from Heaven. So why should he climb down it?

I am not inventing things. Just reading at face value. You are having to come up with non-stated explanations in every issue to try to escape reality.
Not everything needs to be stated,

True. But you have to have sound logic and reason for what you insert.

As with the spirits under the Alter and coming out of Trib. Both are shown as before the Second Coming, in fact at Mid Trib. You have to try pull apart the words and change their order to make them fit.
So mid trib is the 5th seal, Ch:15, the two witnesses dieing, oh, and the last part of Ch:7, if I understand you correctly.

Seals 5-7 are Day 1,260.

7 Trumpets are Day 1,261.

I am not getting back into Trib timing again. Stick with Soul Sleep.

Way too much convoluted working at these things. God did not give us such a mess as you are presenting.
And yours is the simple approach, like the above summation?

Yes, it is simple. Revelation written in grammatical order and Lazarus and the Rich Man are not using false scenarios to make a true point.

Later

[MHz]

Show the Scripture that indicates Lazarus is aware of where he is and that he can hear the rich man. All Scripture points only to Abraham being aware of the rich man.

[CoreIssue]

Show the Scripture that indicates Lazarus is aware of where he is and that he can hear the rich man. All Scripture points only to Abraham being aware of the rich man.
You don't get it.

Abraham and the Rich Man being awake and active is more than enough to prove the point.

I don't need to prove Lazarus anything with them active.

But the fact the Rich Man saw Lazarus as being able to bring water to him shows he is awake and aware.

Don't try to divide this issue as if only Lazarus matters here. False argument.

Multitdues awake in Revelatin before the Second Coming.

The body dies/sleeps and the spirit, fully aware and complete, goes to either Heaven or Hell.

That is what the Bible says.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

You don't get it.

Abraham and the Rich Man being awake and active is more than enough to prove the point.

I don't need to prove Lazarus anything with them active.

But the fact the Rich Man saw Lazarus as being able to bring water to him shows he is awake and aware.

Don't try to divide this issue as if only Lazarus matters here. False argument.

Multitdues awake in Revelatin before the Second Coming.

The body dies/sleeps and the spirit, fully aware and complete, goes to either Heaven or Hell.

That is what the Bible says.

The rich man didn't ask Lazarus to fetch water, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus, nor does the rich man as Lazarus to go to his brothers, that request is made to Abraham, to send Lazarus.
If Lazarus doesn't actively do or say something then there is no reason that he cannot be asleep.

When you say that Christ preached to those who were in hell what scripture puts Jesus in the place the rich man is rather than in the place Abraham was, certainly OT saints would be in Abraham's bosom and not in hell.
If you would claim that Jesus went to heaven (Paradise being where the Tree of Life is) for those 3 days and 3 nights then why would He say that He had not yet ascended to his Father;
Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.

Yet sometime He must have ascended sometime that day because that night He did baptise with the Holy Spirit. It is reasonable that He was touched at sometime during this, if not then certainly when Thomas saw Him.

So it would seem that Christ spent that time in the grave, speaking to those who were in the grave. To those dead this would be paradise, even if they went back to sleep when Jesus came out of the grave. It says many saints, not all OT Saints. The 24 Elders could just as easily be the 24 longest lived people in all the OT, remember Christ's priesthood covers even Adam.

1Pe:4:5:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.

Anybody in hell is not dead (asleep) and the only one who can hear them is the same one who can remain awake in the grave, Jesus Christ.

Later

[CoreIssue]

The rich man didn't ask Lazarus to fetch water, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus, nor does the rich man as Lazarus to go to his brothers, that request is made to Abraham, to send Lazarus.
If Lazarus doesn't actively do or say something then there is no reason that he cannot be asleep.

Do you realize how absurd this argument is. Abraham and the Rich Man are very much dead, but very much awake, thinking, talking and feeling.

Yet you focus on Lazarus.

What is the point of asking Abraham to send Lazarus if Lazarus is asleep?

Really, your arguments here are beyond illogical.
When you say that Christ preached to those who were in hell what scripture puts Jesus in the place the rich man is rather than in the place Abraham was, certainly OT saints would be in Abraham's bosom and not in hell.


1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30428d)] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
Clearly states he preached to those who were disobedient.

Why? So no one can justly say they did not have a choice, even when the reject him in death as they did God in life.
If you would claim that Jesus went to heaven (Paradise being where the Tree of Life is) for those 3 days and 3 nights
I did not say Heaven. I said Paradise, which is also known as the Bosom of Abraham
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29265a)] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29265b)] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204;&version=31;#fen-NIV-29266c)]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Again. He preached to those who were OT lost and saints.

He went into the Pit, into Hell and into Paradise. The he rose after the 3 days.
then why would He say that He had not yet ascended to his Father;

Because I never said that.
Yet sometime He must have ascended sometime that day because that night He did baptise with the Holy Spirit. It is reasonable that He was touched at sometime during this, if not then certainly when Thomas saw Him.

He did not Baptise with the Holy Spirit.

Understand the distinction of the Holy Spirit being upon and within.
So it would seem that Christ spent that time in the grave, speaking to those who were in the grave. To those dead this would be paradise, even if they went back to sleep when Jesus came out of the grave.
That is a purely non literal spin.

And false, since there is no such thing as soul sleep.
It says many saints, not all OT Saints.
I am not talking about those who were resusitated. Stop spinning.
The 24 Elders could just as easily be the 24 longest lived people in all the OT, remember Christ's priesthood covers even Adam.

Complete foundationless.
1Pe:4:5:
Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.

See above for complete context. Which you avoided.
Anybody in hell is not dead (asleep) and the only one who can hear them is the same one who can remain awake in the grave, Jesus Christ.
Those in Hell are spirits. Their bodies are most assuredly dead and in the grave.

You are defying your own doctrine.

You need to stop trying to defend that very erroneous doctrine. Your contradictions and errors are becoming greater in number and more obvious.

You said before all spirits return to God and the soul is asleep in the grave. Now you have people awake in Hell, which is neither the grave or with God.

Really. Take a few days and study this through. It is obvious you are only trying to defend a bad doctrine. Yet you said before you wanted truth.

Make up your mind which is more inportant.

Later. Really, take a few days and look at all of this.

[MHz]

Hi Core,

He did not Baptise with the Holy Spirit.
Joh:20:19:
Then the same day at evening,
being the first day of the week,
when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews,
came Jesus and stood in the midst,
and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
Joh:20:20:
And when he had so said,
he shewed unto them his hands and his side.
Then were the disciples glad,
when they saw the Lord.
Joh:20:21:
Then said Jesus to them again,
Peace be unto you:
as my Father hath sent me,
even so send I you.
Joh:20:22:
And when he had said this,
he breathed on them,
and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh:20:23:
Whose soever sins ye remit,
they are remitted unto them;
and whose soever sins ye retain,
they are retained.

Later

[CoreIssue]

Hi Core,


He did not Baptise with the Holy Spirit.
Joh:20:19:
Then the same day at evening,
being the first day of the week,
when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews,
came Jesus and stood in the midst,
and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you.
Joh:20:20:
And when he had so said,
he shewed unto them his hands and his side.
Then were the disciples glad,
when they saw the Lord.
Joh:20:21:
Then said Jesus to them again,
Peace be unto you:
as my Father hath sent me,
even so send I you.
Joh:20:22:
And when he had said this,
he breathed on them,
and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh:20:23:
Whose soever sins ye remit,
they are remitted unto them;
and whose soever sins ye retain,
they are retained.

That is the Holy Spirit upon, not in.

No one could be Baptised in the Holy Spirit until after the resurrection, since no spirit could be cleansed with his blood offering first.

Throughout the OT the Holy Spirit fell upon people.

Later.

[CoreIssue]

OK. Getting off topic again. This is not about baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[MHz]

If something, a comment or a thought, is posted it is apart of the topic. We just don't have to devote pages to it.

[CoreIssue]

If something, a comment or a thought, is posted it is apart of the topic. We just don't have to devote pages to it.
Agree.

But it is safer to start another thread.