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MHz

07-14-2006, 01:53 AM

Hi Core
In our last meeting (and I do smile when I recall it) you had some questions/concerns about whether my 'vision' was a 'truthfull one'. The question that you didn't explore is how could I have even fit into that hand.

eahaddix

07-14-2006, 09:06 AM

Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus, MHz. :tiphat:

Hi Core
In our last meeting (and I do smile when I recall it) you had some questions/concerns about whether my 'vision' was a 'truthfull one'. The question that you didn't explore is how could I have even fit into that hand.

:): I am assuming that you wish to explore this question. Is this correct?

:hmm::writing:Let us start with this question: Why do you believe that your "vision" is from 'Elohiym, as opposed to an evil spirit or yourself?

CoreIssue

07-14-2006, 11:27 AM

To keep confusion out I will not introduce other issues until Lucky and you finish.

MHz

07-14-2006, 09:38 PM

[FONT=Arial]:hmm::writing:Let us start with this question: Why do you believe that your "vision" is from 'Elohiym, as opposed to an evil spirit or yourself?

Probably the part when I leaned back abd there was no support for my hand because His hand had a hole in it. My 'dreams' can be quite vivid and detailed but they also have a very limited time that I can recall them, hours certainly not a decade of years. I'm just not that smart toinclude that kind of detail in that it was later that I even read that proof would be offerred that Christ was present at that time. At that timeI was Christian by way of believeing that God would (and did at one time) cause an earthquake that would only take select people, fear of God in what He can do.

It may help if you knew what brought me to this prayer, the people in my life were basically all liars and while I could eventually find the truth there was always a 'delay' between hearing their 'truth' and my confronting them with what exposed them as being untruthdull. I was at my wits end as 'is my life always going to be like this ?'. Any distress I felt in dealing with liars vanished in the space of time that that prayer took. That is what that prayer did, I got a 'little bit of assistance' that let meknow there is one who will tell me the truth and that if He cares for me that is enough.

I started reading Scripture on my own in earnest right after that (within one day). Even if that made me the 'least of the body' Iplaced the words written ove what any man could teach me.

At any rate much that was there was supported by what I read in Scripture and the very few I related this experience to never once called it false. You have doubts,that is the reason for this thread. Line by line if you like, the few things I cannot relate/explain to you is the fear and the peace, in that order.
Here is that first verse;
Heb:10:31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Even though I wasn't expecting fear it was there, do I ever expect to feel that fear again,it wouldn't matter as it lasted only a brief moment, it was what followed the fear that is what I long for.

Another part of this thread is to help you understand that my thought about Scripture is given in earnest and not as just from someone who likes to argue. My understanding has been a progression in the finer points of the Holy Word, my base has been rock solid just from the 'inner emotion' that voice caused with just a few words and the comfort of silence.

I want to stress I was not given any insight as towhat will be, I was in desperate straight and have never ever felt that way since so what you get from me in conversation is just my opinion. A few spoken words from Him can make a large impression on anyone.

eahaddix

08-26-2006, 06:56 AM

:tiphat: Hello again, MHz. I apologize for the delayed reply. I have been attending to very important personal issues, which require much focus.

Probably the part when I leaned back abd there was no support for my hand because His hand had a hole in it.

How does this part of your "vision" prove that your "vision" is from 'Elohiym?

My 'dreams' can be quite vivid and detailed[...]

MHz, I have had many vivid, detailed dreams from evil spirits, including psychological attacks, meaningless babblings, and "demonic prophecies." All three types of demonic dreams contained elements of truth, yet these elements of truth serve malevolent purposes in different ways. Specifically:
(a) Psychological attacks use daily stress, enduring concerns, or unfulfilled desires as a basis for destructive messages (ref. Ephesians 4:26-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:26-27;&version=31;), James 3:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%203:13-15;&version=31;)).
(b) Meaningless babblings, verbally and/or visually, use personal fascinations to create ungodly distractions (ref. 1 Timothy 6:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:20;&version=31;), 2 Timothy 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:16;&version=31;), Colossians 2:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:18;&version=31;)).
(c) Demonic prophecies use accurate prophecies about minor events to create misplaced dependence (ref. Acts 16:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:16;&version=31;), 1 Samuel 28:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2028:7;&version=31;)).

Demonic supernatural activity is possible (Ephesians 6:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:12;&version=31;), Daniel 10:5-6, 12-13, 20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2010:5-6,%2012-13,%2020-21;&version=31;)). For instance, evil spirits can attack directly (ref. 1 Samuel 16:14-16, 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2016:14-16,%2023;&version=31;), 1 Samuel 18:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2018:10-11;&version=31;), 1 Samuel 19:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2019:9-10;&version=31;), Job 1:12-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201:12-19;&version=31;), Job 2:6-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%202:6-7;&version=31;), 2 Corinthians 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2012:7;&version=31;)), demon-possessed individuals can exhibit superhuman abilities or afflictions (Mark 5:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%205:1-5;&version=31;) + Luke 8:26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:26-29;&version=31;), Mark 9:14-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:14-25;&version=31;), Luke 13:10-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2013:10-13%20;&version=31;), Luke 9:37-42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%209:37-42;&version=31;), Acts 19:13-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:13-16;&version=31;), etc.), and false prophets can perform counterfeit miracles through their familiar spirits (ref. Matthew 24:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:24;&version=31;), Revelation 13:11-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:11-15;&version=31;), Revelation 16:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016:13-14;&version=31;)). In fact, immediately before the Rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7-8;&version=31;)), demonic supernatural activity will increase (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:9-11;&version=31;)).

[...]but they also have a very limited time that I can recall them, hours certainly not a decade of years. I'm just not that smart toinclude that kind of detail[...]

I understand. However, at the very least, you should remember the reasons for considering this vision godly.

You have doubts,that is the reason for this thread. Line by line if you like, the few things I cannot relate/explain to you is the fear and the peace, in that order.

My understanding has been a progression in the finer points of the Holy Word, my base has been rock solid just from the 'inner emotion' that voice caused with just a few words and the comfort of silence.

Even though I wasn't expecting fear it was there, do I ever expect to feel that fear again,it wouldn't matter as it lasted only a brief moment, it was what followed the fear that is what I long for.

Personal emotions are unreliable (ref. Jeremiah 17:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:9;&version=31;)). In fact, when evaluating personal experiences, the human heart does not distinguish between objective external fact and subjective internal reactions. To the contrary, the human heart simply reflects one's collective emotional reactions, which are relative to the individual's perspective. As a result, different people use different emotions to justify different beliefs.

The only exception to this relativistic reality is "strange feelings," or extra-personal feelings which do not reflect your emotional state. By their explicit implications, such feelings come from an external source, which may be godly or demonic.

Now, did you experience the former or the latter?

At any rate much that was there was supported by what I read in Scripture and the very few I related this experience to never once called it false.

You are engaging in a negative burden of proof logical fallacy. The absence of contradictory evidence does not evidence veracity, in and of itself. To the contrary, only positive evidence can substantiate an argument, positive or negative.

Here is that first verse;
Heb:10:31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

How do you know that the said giant hand represented "the hand of God"?

I started reading Scripture on my own in earnest right after that (within one day). Even if that made me the 'least of the body' Iplaced the words written ove what any man could teach me.

The study of the Scriptures does not grant salvation (ref. John 5:39-40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:39-40;&version=31;)).

To the contrary, a “Biblical Christian (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546)” (ref. Acts 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:26;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+11%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Acts 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2026:28;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+26%3A28&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), 1 Peter 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204:16;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Peter+4%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)) is defined as a person possessing a genuine personal belief in the Gospel, plus doctrines directly related to the Gospel. Repentance (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3341) hallmarks this genuine personal belief (ref. 2 Corinthians 7:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%207:10;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Corinthians+7%3A10&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=31;), Acts 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%203:19;&version=31;), Luke 5:27-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%205:27-32;&version=31;), etc.), otherwise one's personal beliefs have not truly changed.

The nucleus of the Gospel is as follows: Christ Jesus, the Logos (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=kjv) made flesh (John 1:1-2, 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2,%204;&version=31;)), lived as a normal man (Galatians 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204:4;&version=31;)), died as our substitute to pay our sin debt (2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:21;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24;&version=31;), Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:13;&version=31;), Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;), etc.), and was resurrected three days later (ref. Matthew 12:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:40;&version=31;)) to bring victory over sin with new life (Romans 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:4;&version=31;), Hebrews 2:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%202:14-15;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:12-58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:12-58;&version=31;), Romans 4:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:25;&version=31;), etc.) (see brief summary in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:1-8;&version=31;)). As a result, those who believe in Christ Jesus (John 20:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:31;&version=31;), Matthew 16:13-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:13-18;&version=31;), John 6:25-59 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:25-59;&version=31;), ref. Romans 10:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-10;&version=31;), Acts 16:30-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:30-31;&version=31;), John 3:16-18, 36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16-18,%2036;&version=31;), etc.) have their past, present, and future sin debt paid (Hebrews 10:10-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:10-14;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27-28;&version=31;), 1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18;&version=31;), Romans 6:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:8-10;&version=31;), etc.), thereby reconciling those who believe in Christ Jesus to God (Colossians 1:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:21-22;&version=31;), Romans 5:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:11;&version=31;)).

Doctrines related to the Gospel include, but are not limited to, the following:

1) Belief in one God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) (Isaiah 45:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:5;&version=31;), Isaiah 46:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2046:9;&version=31;)). Specifically, if God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) is not the only God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) in existence, then the divine personages cease to be God, or the Supreme Beings (ref. def (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/god)). Multiple Gods (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) would limit each other through their relative power.

2) Belief in the Divinity of Christ (Isaiah 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%209:6;&version=31;) [cross ref. Zechariah 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012:10;&version=31;)], John 1:1-2, 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2,%2014;&version=31;), John 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:18;&version=31;), John 8:56-58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:56-58;&version=31;), Hebrews 1:5-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%201:5-8;&version=31;), Titus 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:13;&version=31;), Revelation 22:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:12-13;&version=31;) [plus Revelation 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:8;&version=31;)], etc.) Specifically, only God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) himself is our Savior (Isaiah 43:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:11;&version=31;)). However, if Christ Jesus is not God incarnate, then Christ Jesus cannot be the Scriptural Savior (ref. Acts 5:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:31;&version=31;), Acts 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:9-12;&version=31;), etc.). Instead, two possibilities result:
(a) Man can enter heaven by his own efforts, therefore Christ Jesus's substitutional sacrificial death was pointless.
(b) God the Father did everything for Christ Jesus through Christ Jesus, therefore Christ Jesus did not accomplish anything by himself.

3) Belief in the Trinity (ref. Genesis 1:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:26;&version=31;), Genesis 3:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:22;&version=31;), Genesis 11:6-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2011:6-7;&version=31;), Isaiah 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%206:8;&version=31;), Genesis 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018;&version=31;), John 1:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2;&version=31;), etc.). Specifically, any denial of the Trinity necessitates that Christ Jesus cannot be God incarnate ontologically. Instead, two possibilities result:
(a) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a lifeless, abstract manifestation of God.
(b) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a man inhabited by God.
Hence, by denying God the Son, one also denies God the Father (1 John 2:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:22-23;&version=31;), 1 John 5:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:10-12;&version=31;)).

4) Belief in Salvation by Grace Alone, which logically necessitates OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved). Specifically, by his grace alone, God decides to credit
(http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=02803)
(http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3049) the believer with righteousness (Genesis 15:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2015:6;&version=31;), Romans 4:1-5, 23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:1-5,%2023-24;&version=31;), James 2:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:23;&version=31;), Philippians 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:9;&version=31;)). Grace cannot include works under any context, otherwise grace ceases to be grace (Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=31;)).

5) Belief in the Proper Definition of the "Nature of Man"
6) Belief in the Proper Definition of "Sin"

Man possesses a sinful nature (1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%201:8;&version=31;), Romans 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12;&version=31;), Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:23;&version=31;), 1 Kings 8:46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%208:46;&version=31;), 2 Chronicles 6:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%206:36;&version=31;), Ecclesiastes 7:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%207:20;&version=31;), etc.), which causes man to transgress God's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) revealed law (Romans 3:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:20;&version=31;), Romans 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:15;&version=31;), Romans 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:13;&version=31;), Romans 7:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:7-8;&version=31;), 1 John 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:4;&version=31;)). As a result, sin brings death (Romans 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12;&version=31;), Romans 6:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:23;&version=31;)) and separation from God (Colossians 1:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:21-22;&version=31;), ref. Isaiah 59:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2059:2;&version=31;)), who cannot tolerate wrong (Habakkuk 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk%201:13;&version=31;)).

To illustrate the material under items #5 and #6, consider James 2:8-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:8-11;&version=31;):

James 2 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:8-11;&version=31;)]
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Every time one . . .
(a) tells an "innocent" or "harmless" "white lie" (Exodus 20:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:16;&version=31;), Leviticus 19:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019:11;&version=31;)),
(b) "borrows" something without permission (Exodus 20:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:15;&version=31;)),
(c) misuses God's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) name in severe anger or pain (Exodus 20:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:7;&version=31;)) or swears falsely by it (Leviticus 19:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019:12;&version=31;)),
(d) shows favoritism towards certain people (Romans 13:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:9;&version=31;), Galatians 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:14;&version=31;), James 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:8-9;&version=31;)),
(e) internally lusts after the spouse (Matthew 5:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:27-29;&version=31;)), or any property (Exodus 20:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:17;&version=31;)), of another person, or
(f) acts like something besides God is of greater importance (Exodus 20:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:3;&version=31;), Deuteronomy 6:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%206:5;&version=31;), Joshua 22:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2022:5;&version=31;), Mark 12:28-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:28-33;&version=31;), etc.),
. . . one breaks the entire Old Testament Law. And all people, Christian or non-Christian, are guilty of doing these things on a regular basis. Hence, in light of the material immediately above, is anyone prepared to assert that they do not sin on a regular basis?

Now, as a theological disclaimer, I do not claim that the above list is exhaustive theologically. Just as touching a spider web at any point causes the entire spider web to vibrate at varying degrees, any variant elements of any systematic theology may effect the central message, which is the Gospel. One must evaluate such potential elements on a case-by-case basis.

At that timeI was Christian by way of believeing that God would (and did at one time) cause an earthquake that would only take select people, fear of God in what He can do.

The possession of fear does not make one a Christian (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546) (ref. Acts 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:26;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+11%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Acts 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2026:28;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+26%3A28&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), 1 Peter 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204:16;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Peter+4%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)). To the contrary, God the Spirit, who indwells the believer (John 14:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-18;&version=31;), Romans 8:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:9;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%203:16;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:19;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:20-22;&version=31;), etc.), does not enslave people with fear (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5401) (Romans 8:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:15;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Romans+8%3A15&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), ref. 1 John 4:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:18;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+4%3A18&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)).

MHz

09-10-2006, 09:10 PM

Hi LuckyStrike,
:tiphat: Hello again, MHz. I apologize for the delayed reply. I have been attending to very important personal issues, which require much focus.
NP, as you can see my replies aren't the speediest

How does this part of your "vision" prove that your "vision" is from 'Elohiym?
Well it is a 'part', it is a combination of things that occured, that was just really unexpected.

MHz, I have had many vivid, detailed dreams from evil spirits, including psychological attacks, meaningless babblings, and "demonic prophecies." All three types of demonic dreams contained elements of truth, yet these elements of truth serve malevolent purposes in different ways. Specifically:
(a) Psychological attacks use daily stress, enduring concerns, or unfulfilled desires as a basis for destructive messages (ref. Ephesians 4:26-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:26-27;&version=31;), James 3:13-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%203:13-15;&version=31;)).
(b) Meaningless babblings, verbally and/or visually, use personal fascinations to create ungodly distractions (ref. 1 Timothy 6:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:20;&version=31;), 2 Timothy 2:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:16;&version=31;), Colossians 2:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%202:18;&version=31;)).
(c) Demonic prophecies use accurate prophecies about minor events to create misplaced dependence (ref. Acts 16:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:16;&version=31;), 1 Samuel 28:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2028:7;&version=31;)).
The difference between this and a dream are these things. This was a very intentional prayer, I was fully awake when I started to pray and I was fully awake right after. I doubt very much 'peace of mind' is a 'gift' from a demon, nor would fear be absent in a place where fear has much power (as in the 'hallway'). Nor would a demon be interested in not seeing me in the same 'state of mind'as I was before the prayer.

Demonic supernatural activity is possible (Ephesians 6:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:12;&version=31;), Daniel 10:5-6, 12-13, 20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2010:5-6,%2012-13,%2020-21;&version=31;)). For instance, evil spirits can attack directly (ref. 1 Samuel 16:14-16, 23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2016:14-16,%2023;&version=31;), 1 Samuel 18:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2018:10-11;&version=31;), 1 Samuel 19:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2019:9-10;&version=31;), Job 1:12-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201:12-19;&version=31;), Job 2:6-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%202:6-7;&version=31;), 2 Corinthians 12:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2012:7;&version=31;)), demon-possessed individuals can exhibit superhuman abilities or afflictions (Mark 5:1-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%205:1-5;&version=31;) + Luke 8:26-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:26-29;&version=31;), Mark 9:14-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:14-25;&version=31;), Luke 13:10-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2013:10-13%20;&version=31;), Luke 9:37-42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%209:37-42;&version=31;), Acts 19:13-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:13-16;&version=31;), etc.), and false prophets can perform counterfeit miracles through their familiar spirits (ref. Matthew 24:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2024:24;&version=31;), Revelation 13:11-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013:11-15;&version=31;),
What part of what I wrote would you consider coming from 'something evil'?

Revelation 16:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2016:13-14;&version=31;)). In fact, immediately before the Rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:7-8;&version=31;)), demonic supernatural activity will increase (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:9-11;&version=31;)).[/COLOR]
What makes you think the wicked one is revealed earlier than just before Christ destroys him?

I understand. However, at the very least, you should remember the reasons for considering this vision godly.
I am quite aware of why I consider this was Christ, of all the reasons.

Personal emotions are unreliable (ref. Jeremiah 17:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2017:9;&version=31;)). In fact, when evaluating personal experiences, the human heart does not distinguish between objective external fact and subjective internal reactions. To the contrary, the human heart simply reflects one's collective emotional reactions, which are relative to the individual's perspective. As a result, different people use different emotions to justify different beliefs.
My views on Scripture come from reading Scripture, for each verse that 'answers a question', that same verse will most likely also 'raise a question'. I assume you think my view is based on how I 'wish things to be', it isn't, it is the result of many questions and many answers. Nor will God repent any prophecy given and there are still many to be fullfilled that will be 'filled with violence'.

The only exception to this relativistic reality is "strange feelings," or extra-personal feelings which do not reflect your emotional state. By their explicit implications, such feelings come from an external source, which may be godly or demonic.

Now, did you experience the former or the latter?
Well, the words "I don't feel so good" were at the end of the prayer, I have never experienced that feeling (that was the reason for the prayer in any way shape or form) since then. None of the liars that were around me ever gave up lieing (they are much the same even to this day). Even that feeling of 'peace' has never been that strong but it is well remembered. That the next day I decieded to start reading from the NT books as a way to find out more would certainly point to God being kind enough to allow Christ to 'comfort me in a small fashion'.

You are engaging in a negative burden of proof logical fallacy. The absence of contradictory evidence does not evidence veracity, in and of itself. To the contrary, only positive evidence can substantiate an argument, positive or negative.
What I experienced is not proof or evidence of anything other than how I came to read Scripture. It isn't a 'gut feeling' or anything to do with my emotions that have made me come to different conclusions than you have, they are based on Scripture alone and if I don't have at least a few verses to go by I usually don't even offer an opinion. That I don't accept the normal accepted 'version' is almost an non issue, it is different because the holes you can't see in your version are quite apparent to me. I'm certainly not shy about asking for more information about 'these errors' and if the answer is reasonable (like having verses in the proper context) that's accepted. An answer that doesn't have the above is just dismissed as they don't have an answer.

How do you know that the said giant hand represented "the hand of God"?
Reflect on what occured just before this, I had just finished the Lord's prayer, whose hand should it be?
I didn't at the time, that I couldn't move even one little bit did frighten me, a lot.

The study of the Scriptures does not grant salvation (ref. John 5:39-40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:39-40;&version=31;)).

To the contrary, a “Biblical Christian (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546)” (ref. Acts 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:26;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+11%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Acts 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2026:28;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+26%3A28&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), 1 Peter 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204:16;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Peter+4%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)) is defined as a person possessing a genuine personal belief in the Gospel, plus doctrines directly related to the Gospel. Repentance (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3341) hallmarks this genuine personal belief (ref. 2 Corinthians 7:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%207:10;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=2+Corinthians+7%3A10&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Mark 1:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:14-15;&version=31;), Acts 3:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%203:19;&version=31;), Luke 5:27-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%205:27-32;&version=31;), etc.), otherwise one's personal beliefs have not truly changed.
I had accepted Christ as my Master long before that prayer, that I became more interested in what He had said is in accordance with reading what my Master has left to me. I certainly have come to question how many understand those words. An opinion of the sequence of events isn't about salvation, it is about the way salvation comes about.

The nucleus of the Gospel is as follows: Christ Jesus, the Logos (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=kjv) made flesh (John 1:1-2, 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2,%204;&version=31;)), lived as a normal man (Galatians 4:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%204:4;&version=31;)), died as our substitute to pay our sin debt (2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%205:21;&version=31;), 1 Peter 2:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:24;&version=31;), Galatians 3:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:13;&version=31;), Galatians 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202:20;&version=31;), etc.), and was resurrected three days later (ref. Matthew 12:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:40;&version=31;)) to bring victory over sin with new life (Romans 6:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:4;&version=31;), Hebrews 2:14-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%202:14-15;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 15:12-58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:12-58;&version=31;), Romans 4:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:25;&version=31;), etc.) (see brief summary in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:1-8;&version=31;)). As a result, those who believe in Christ Jesus (John 20:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:31;&version=31;), Matthew 16:13-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:13-18;&version=31;), John 6:25-59 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%206:25-59;&version=31;), ref. Romans 10:9-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9-10;&version=31;), Acts 16:30-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2016:30-31;&version=31;), John 3:16-18, 36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16-18,%2036;&version=31;), etc.) have their past, present, and future sin debt paid (Hebrews 10:10-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:10-14;&version=31;), Hebrews 9:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:27-28;&version=31;), 1 Peter 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:18;&version=31;), Romans 6:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:8-10;&version=31;), etc.), thereby reconciling those who believe in Christ Jesus to God (Colossians 1:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:21-22;&version=31;), Romans 5:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:11;&version=31;)).
Do you believe this passage is about Jesus Christ and spoken by Christ;
Proverb:8:22:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
Proverb:8:23:
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
Proverb:8:24:
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverb:8:25:
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverb:8:26:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverb:8:27:
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverb:8:28:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverb:8:29:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverb:8:30:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Proverb:8:31:
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.

Doctrines related to the Gospel include, but are not limited to, the following:

1) Belief in one God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) (Isaiah 45:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2045:5;&version=31;), Isaiah 46:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2046:9;&version=31;)). Specifically, if God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) is not the only God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) in existence, then the divine personages cease to be God, or the Supreme Beings (ref. def (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/god)). Multiple Gods (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) would limit each other through their relative power.

2) Belief in the Divinity of Christ (Isaiah 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%209:6;&version=31;) [cross ref. Zechariah 12:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah%2012:10;&version=31;)], John 1:1-2, 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2,%2014;&version=31;), John 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:18;&version=31;), John 8:56-58 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:56-58;&version=31;), Hebrews 1:5-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%201:5-8;&version=31;), Titus 2:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:13;&version=31;), Revelation 22:12-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:12-13;&version=31;) [plus Revelation 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:8;&version=31;)], etc.) Specifically, only God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) himself is our Savior (Isaiah 43:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:11;&version=31;)). However, if Christ Jesus is not God incarnate, then Christ Jesus cannot be the Scriptural Savior (ref. Acts 5:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:31;&version=31;), Acts 4:9-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%204:9-12;&version=31;), etc.). Instead, two possibilities result:
(a) Man can enter heaven by his own efforts, therefore Christ Jesus's substitutional sacrificial death was pointless.
(b) God the Father did everything for Christ Jesus through Christ Jesus, therefore Christ Jesus did not accomplish anything by himself.

Joh:5:18:
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,
because he not only had broken the sabbath,
but said also that God was his Father,
making himself equal with God.
Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh:5:20:
For the Father loveth the Son,
and sheweth him all things that himself doeth:
and he will shew him greater works than these,
that ye may marvel.
Joh:5:21:
For as the Father raiseth up the dead,
and quickeneth them;
even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh:5:22:
For the Father judgeth no man,
but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh:5:23:
That all men should honour the Son,
even as they honour the Father.
He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh:5:24:
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
He that heareth my word,
and believeth on him that sent me,
hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.

1Tm:2:5:
For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

3) Belief in the Trinity (ref. Genesis 1:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:26;&version=31;), Genesis 3:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203:22;&version=31;), Genesis 11:6-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2011:6-7;&version=31;), Isaiah 6:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%206:8;&version=31;), Genesis 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018;&version=31;), John 1:1-2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-2;&version=31;), etc.). Specifically, any denial of the Trinity necessitates that Christ Jesus cannot be God incarnate ontologically. Instead, two possibilities result:
(a) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a lifeless, abstract manifestation of God.
(b) Christ Jesus, or the Son, is a man inhabited by God.
Hence, by denying God the Son, one also denies God the Father (1 John 2:22-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%202:22-23;&version=31;), 1 John 5:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:10-12;&version=31;)).
I don't deny either I accept both of them, Jesus as my Master, given authority to be my Master by His father. Lord God Almighty;
Joh:20:17:
Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren,
and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father,
and your Father;
and to my God,
and your God.

Nor will I deny God's own words in this verse;
M'r:9:7:
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them:
and a voice came out of the cloud,
saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.

4) Belief in Salvation by Grace Alone, which logically necessitates OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved). Specifically, by his grace alone, God decides to credit
(http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=02803)
(http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3049) the believer with righteousness (Genesis 15:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2015:6;&version=31;), Romans 4:1-5, 23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:1-5,%2023-24;&version=31;), James 2:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:23;&version=31;), Philippians 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:9;&version=31;)). Grace cannot include works under any context, otherwise grace ceases to be grace (Romans 11:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011:6;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:8-9;&version=31;)).
I would most certainly agree that without grace there would be none to stand before Christ or before God. That being said once a person has accepted Christ are their lives to remain 'without works', this isn't work that will save you and it may not save anybody else (it is Christ who does gather those lost) it is simply the proper way to act when there are other people around;
Jas:2:14:
What doth it profit,
my brethren,
though a man say he hath faith,
and have not works?
can faith save him?
Jas:2:15:
If a brother or sister be naked,
and destitute of daily food,
Jas:2:16:
And one of you say unto them,
Depart in peace,
be ye warmed and filled;
notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body;
what doth it profit?
Jas:2:17:
Even so faith,
if it hath not works,
is dead,
being alone.
Jas:2:18:
Yea,
a man may say,
Thou hast faith,
and I have works:
shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas:2:19:
Thou believest that there is one God;
thou doest well:
the devils also believe,
and tremble.
Jas:2:20:
But wilt thou know,
O vain man,
that faith without works is dead?
Jas:2:21:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas:2:22:
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas:2:23:
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas:2:24:
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.
Jas:2:25:
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works,
when she had received the messengers,
and had sent them out another way?
Jas:2:26:
For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also.

Grace can, and does, cover a multitude of sins, but it does not cover all sins;
M't:12:31:
Wherefore I say unto you,
All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
M't:12:32:
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,
it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,
it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this world,
neither in the world to come.

Do you expect grace to fully cover these;
Lu:6:46:
And why call ye me,
Lord,
Lord,
and do not the things which I say?

5) Belief in the Proper Definition of the "Nature of Man"
6) Belief in the Proper Definition of "Sin"

Man possesses a sinful nature (1 John 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%201:8;&version=31;), Romans 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12;&version=31;), Romans 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:23;&version=31;), 1 Kings 8:46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%208:46;&version=31;), 2 Chronicles 6:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%206:36;&version=31;), Ecclesiastes 7:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%207:20;&version=31;), etc.), which causes man to transgress God's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) revealed law (Romans 3:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:20;&version=31;), Romans 4:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%204:15;&version=31;), Romans 5:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:13;&version=31;), Romans 7:7-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:7-8;&version=31;), 1 John 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:4;&version=31;)). As a result, sin brings death (Romans 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:12;&version=31;), Romans 6:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206:23;&version=31;)) and separation from God (Colossians 1:21-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:21-22;&version=31;), ref. Isaiah 59:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2059:2;&version=31;)), who cannot tolerate wrong (Habakkuk 1:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk%201:13;&version=31;)).

To illustrate the material under items #5 and #6, consider James 2:8-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:8-11;&version=31;):

James 2 [NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:8-11;&version=31;)]
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

OT Law, grace towards people of Christian faith (as with a different people gathered comes with a change in law) with it own set of definations which covers these sins;
M't:5:27:
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

If thought of adultery is considered the same as adultery in the flesh, then those sins are 'judged' and forgiven. I'm sure that just as in the trib our conduct today is more or less held to these standards;
1Pe:4:12:
Beloved,
think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you,
as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe:4:13:
But rejoice,
inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;
that,
when his glory shall be revealed,
ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe:4:14:
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ,
happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you:
on their part he is evil spoken of,
but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe:4:15:
But let none of you suffer as a murderer,
or as a thief,
or as an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe:4:16:
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian,
let him not be ashamed;
but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe:4:17:
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe:4:18:
And if the righteous scarcely be saved,
where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe:4:19:
Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing,
as unto a faithful Creator.

I doubt practicing any of the above will be forgiven (in relation to if a person's life is not examined very closely and they will not be alive during the thousand years) once Satan is on Earth, if it is for (also now), then the 'reward' is also reduced;
M't:5:19:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so,
he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them,
the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Every time one . . .
(a) tells an "innocent" or "harmless" "white lie" (Exodus 20:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:16;&version=31;), Leviticus 19:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019:11;&version=31;)),
(b) "borrows" something without permission (Exodus 20:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:15;&version=31;)),
(c) misuses God's (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv)
(http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) name in severe anger or pain (Exodus 20:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:7;&version=31;)) or swears falsely by it (Leviticus 19:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2019:12;&version=31;)),
(d) shows favoritism towards certain people (Romans 13:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:9;&version=31;), Galatians 5:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:14;&version=31;), James 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:8-9;&version=31;)),
(e) internally lusts after the spouse (Matthew 5:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:27-29;&version=31;)), or any property (Exodus 20:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:17;&version=31;)), of another person, or
(f) acts like something besides God is of greater importance (Exodus 20:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:3;&version=31;), Deuteronomy 6:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%206:5;&version=31;), Joshua 22:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2022:5;&version=31;), Mark 12:28-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:28-33;&version=31;), etc.),
. . . one breaks the entire Old Testament Law. And all people, Christian or non-Christian, are guilty of doing these things on a regular basis. Hence, in light of the material immediately above, is anyone prepared to assert that they do not sin on a regular basis?

It would seem like sin is still around, those that delight in this would seem to deserve a different path than those that have been 'afflicted' by Satan's devices.

Now, as a theological disclaimer, I do not claim that the above list is exhaustive theologically. Just as touching a spider web at any point causes the entire spider web to vibrate at varying degrees, any variant elements of any systematic theology may effect the central message, which is the Gospel. One must evaluate such potential elements on a case-by-case basis.
The central message is about salvation, the redemption of man from sin. What is debated is the order and % of men that are saved.

The possession of fear does not make one a Christian (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546) (ref. Acts 11:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:26;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+11%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), Acts 26:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2026:28;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+26%3A28&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), 1 Peter 4:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204:16;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Peter+4%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)). To the contrary, God the Spirit, who indwells the believer (John 14:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-18;&version=31;), Romans 8:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:9;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 3:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%203:16;&version=31;), 1 Corinthians 6:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:19;&version=31;), Ephesians 2:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:20-22;&version=31;), etc.), does not enslave people with fear (http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5401) (Romans 8:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:15;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Romans+8%3A15&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na), ref. 1 John 4:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:18;&version=31;) [Greek] (http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+4%3A18&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na)).

I'm certainly not enslaved by fear.
Proverb:8:6:
Hear;
for I will speak of excellent things;
and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
Proverb:8:7:
For my mouth shall speak truth;
and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Proverb:8:8:
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;
there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Proverb:8:9:
They are all plain to him that understandeth,
and right to them that find knowledge.
Proverb:8:10:
Receive my instruction,
and not silver;
and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Proverb:8:11:
For wisdom is better than rubies;
and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Proverb:8:12:
I wisdom dwell with prudence,
and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Proverb:8:13:
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:
pride,
and arrogancy,
and the evil way,
and the froward mouth,
do I hate.
Proverb:8:14:
Counsel is mine,
and sound wisdom:
I am understanding;
I have strength.

Proverb:8:32:
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Proverb:8:33:
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Proverb:8:34:
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
Proverb:8:35:
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
Proverb:8:36:
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.

Later

MHz

09-11-2006, 12:38 AM

hi LuckyStrike,
When I was doing a reply it took quite a bit more time as in the 'edit mode' some of your reply originally looked like this ( z added to show what I saw without the z),

The possession of fear does not make one a [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5546"]Christian[/URL] (ref. [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:26;&version=31;"]Acts 11:26[/URL] [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+11%3A26&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na"][Greek][/URL], [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2026:28;&version=31;"]Acts 26:28[/URL] [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Acts+26%3A28&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na"][Greek][/URL], [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%204:16;&version=31;"]1 Peter 4:16[/URL] [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+Peter+4%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na"][Greek][/URL]). To the contrary, God the Spirit, who indwells the believer ([zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014:16-18;&version=31;"]John 14:16-18[/URL], [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:9;&version=31;"]Romans 8:9[/URL], [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%203:16;&version=31;"]1 Corinthians 3:16[/URL], [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%206:19;&version=31;"]1 Corinthians 6:19[/URL], [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202:20-22;&version=31;"]Ephesians 2:20-22[/URL], etc.), does not enslave people with [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5401"]fear[/URL] ([zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:15;&version=31;"]Romans 8:15[/URL] [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Romans+8%3A15&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na"][Greek][/URL], ref. [zURL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:18;&version=31;"]1 John 4:18[/URL] [zURL="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1+John+4%3A18&section=0&it=kjv&ot=bhs&nt=na"][Greek][/URL]).
[/FONT][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Just finding your own words was a 'task', if I did the reply by copy & paste (from the original reply, the result was this,

The possession of fear does not make one a Christian (ref. Acts 11:26 [Greek], Acts 26:28 [Greek], 1 Peter 4:16 [Greek]). To the contrary, God the Spirit, who indwells the believer (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19, Ephesians 2:20-22, etc.), does not enslave people with fear (Romans 8:15 [Greek], ref. 1 John 4:18 [Greek]).,

much easier.

For an even speedier read for me a reference to a verse is usually followed by reading the verse, a link takes time, the result would look like this,
The possession of fear does not make one a Christian (ref. Acts 11:26 [Greek],
and when he found him,
he brought him to Antioch.
So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people.
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Acts 26:28 [Greek],
Then Agrippa said to Paul,
"Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?"
1 Peter 4:16 [Greek]).
However,
if you suffer as a Christian,
do not be ashamed,
but praise God that you bear that name.

At this point I am almost tempted to ask why are these verses referenced when 'fear of God' is the subject?

To the contrary, God the Spirit, who indwells the believer (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19, Ephesians 2:20-22, etc.), does not enslave people with fear (Romans 8:15 [Greek], ref. 1 John 4:18 [Greek]

Later

All verses quoted are from,

New International Version (NIV)

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