Liberal Christians

[Chrystalwuzhere]

I don't care what anybody says, liberal christians standing by and accepting anything coming and going, people who accept anything and everything as long as it has a christian label on it, are the main reason the church slides into the cesspool of worldliness.

How can the enemy be kept out when the guardians at the gates are corrupted?

[CoreIssue]

Agree.

I had a collision with a local pastor, on being Biblical and out there, on the local paper.

He didn't address the being out there, but did say he might have issues, but not being Biblical was not one of them.

I posted a number of things he was not Biblical on, with verses. He has never replied.

Others talk about how I have a radical form of intolerant Christianity. They follow Christ in embracing all who come to God in any way.

Another, muddle, and I climbed all over that. A couple of others chimed in. But most the others that replied were venomous in attacking me.

But, you know shy little me on what did about that.

We are most assuredly on the same page on what you said. When you want to know where they are, they are silent.

[Jessie]

I don't care what anybody says, liberal christians standing by and accepting anything coming and going, people who accept anything and everything as long as it has a christian label on it, are the main reason the church slides into the cesspool of worldliness.

How can the enemy be kept out when the guardians at the gates are corrupted?

AMEN! Chrystal thats what I told my mother on the phone the other week.
I did'nt mention the word liberal. but when she told me dont judge, I told her
that was'nt right, we are to judge righteously, and that because the people wont judge anything these wicked people have come in and are destroying the churches.

they have no fear of God or offending Him!

its good to have you guys, you all stand up for the truth!

and yep, they sure get silent.

[Brandli5]

Agree with you all. I just cannot see how some people can be christian when they accept all the do.

[Vladd44]

I think all of you have fallen into the same trap. You do not understand the distinction between subjective truth and objective truth.

I am sure that whatever package of "sins" you find objectionable are unacceptable to coexist within your church. For some Homosexuality seems to be a popular one. For others it is the abortion issue. Perhaps yours is not one of those two, but fill in the blank with your own particular flavor of what you dislike. But whatever it is, I know that to see others "tolerate" such behavior is an abomination...... in your eyes.

But from my limited perspective, I fail to see the difference between whatever you believe is causing churches to slide into a "cesspool of worldliness" and the pompous arrogant opinions you have of yourself.

By definition, you are deeming yourself worthy to be there, but others by your definition are not. If you really believe in the bible you say you do, you should note that by it's definition you are totally unworthy to be alive. I guess that would disqualify anyone from worthiness to be part of anything, death has a way of limiting your social interaction.

Now feel free to disregard everything I have said. As an agnostic son of a pastor, who supported his family by an outside job (Was just reading http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2365 ) I must admit to not being the best qualified to expect you to hear me.

But come on, surely you can see that the "sins" that each and every person on the planet commits on a regular basis are no different to your god.

[CoreIssue]

I think all of you have fallen into the same trap. You do not understand the distinction between subjective truth and objective truth.
Actually, we do.

Objective truth is absolute. it does not change.

Subjective truth is code word for situational ethics. The truth changes with time and circumstance, making it whatever the person wants it to be.

I am sure that whatever package of "sins" you find objectionable are unacceptable to coexist within your church. For some Homosexuality seems to be a popular one. For others it is the abortion issue. Perhaps yours is not one of those two, but fill in the blank with your own particular flavor of what you dislike. But whatever it is, I know that to see others "tolerate" such behavior is an abomination...... in your eyes.

There is a vast difference between working with a person, in sin, to get them out of it and accepting and endorsing the sin as all okay.

We all struggle with sin. But sin remains sin and cannot be candy coated or overlooked. How it is dealt with depends on its nature and so on.

A church that says God created homosexuals, it is not a sin and so on, have abandoned an objective sin for a subjective convenience.

But from my limited perspective, I fail to see the difference between whatever you believe is causing churches to slide into a "cesspool of worldliness" and the pompous arrogant opinions you have of yourself.

Translation. Because we hold what the Bible teaches to be gross sin, and liberal churches, and such as yourself do not, that makes us the ones who are terribly wrong.

Recognizing something for what it is does mean being pompous or arrogant. It means we have the courage to look at what is sin and call it sin, without trying to appease our own selves.

Those of you who want a nothing is wrong world are the ones allowing the rampant spread of crime, and everything else, that is destroying this nation.
By definition, you are deeming yourself worthy to be there, but others by your definition are not.
You have that wrong.

We will 'be there' because we bowed to God and Christ. Not because we have personally merited anything. We play by God's rules, not Man's.
If you really believe in the bible you say you do, you should note that by it's definition you are totally unworthy to be alive. I guess that would disqualify anyone from worthiness to be part of anything, death has a way of limiting your social interaction.
We do and we know we don't merit anything good from God.

All he asks is we turn to him, repent and try. Put our trust and our problems in his hands.

You cannot do that simple thing because you don't like what he wants you to try to do thereafter.

Now feel free to disregard everything I have said. As an agnostic son of a pastor, who supported his family by an outside job (Was just reading http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2365 ) I must admit to not being the best qualified to expect you to hear me.

Seems like you blame your father's being a pastor for your woes.

I cannot judge that since I don't know the situation. Just being a pastor does not make him right in these things.

But neither does it make the Bible and God wrong. Or you right.
But come on, surely you can see that the "sins" that each and every person on the planet commits on a regular basis are no different to your god.
Then you do not understand what it means to be born-again. And what it does to the person.

Yes, we sin. But not like the world does. No where to even close to that.

[Vladd44]

As an agnostic son of a pastor, who supported his family by an outside job (Was just reading http://www.christiantalkzone.net/for...ead.php?t=2365 ) I must admit to not being the best qualified to expect you to hear me.

Seems like you blame your father's being a pastor for your woes.

Of your many assumptions, this was one i felt the need to address first.

I made reference to my father to clarify perspective, not in resentment nor any perceived woes you assume I am suffering from. My father was the most important influence on my life, I simply did not see eye to eye with him on his god.

I find it incredible that you could take what i said about him as resentment or an effort to impugn him or his life. I would consider his death 14 years ago to be the darkest time of my life.

However, you also misunderstood my entire comment. It is not to say that churches have no "right" to teach what they believe the bible to contain, but simply to say your self righteous attitude is of no less consequence than the ones you condemn. What makes your viewpoint of a church being some exclusive club that only those who dont partake of a particular package of sins to be acceptable.

Recognizing something for what it is does mean being pompous or arrogant. It means we have the courage to look at what is sin and call it sin, without trying to appease our own selves.

It is not your personal opposition that appalls me, but your desire to make your personal view the absolute that all should adhere to or be deemed acceptable for your church i find incredible.

I would dare to say that all churches have differences of opinion, and that everyone has some weakness or limitation, I fail to see what makes some acceptable to tolerate or overlook, but others henious and only to be purged.

Sure the bible IMO says homosexuality is wrong, others would say the same about divorce in almost any situation. But wasnt the whole purpose of your Jesus' sacrifice to overcome sin? i find it interesting that his blood can cover some sins and allow people an opportunity to "enjoy" the fellowship of other believers while others should be cast out and deemed unacceptable for a different rash of "sins".

You cannot do that simple thing because you don't like what he wants you to try to do thereafter.

I am not sure what your trying to say, I have no belief in your god, so in one sense you are correct (if I am reading you right). I cannot do one simple thing. However the reason is quite different than the one you postulated out of thin air. It has nothing to do with the plans of being I consider most likely fictional, but with that very fact itself, how can I follow that which I believe to be untrue.

I must admit, the whole eternal life, seeing your dead friends and family, peace and joy for all eternity is quite a gig. And I cannot imagine why anyone would not want such a lovely thing to be true. Nor would any sacrifice or effort be too much to achieve such a thing.

That believe is what sustains my mother and my mother-in-law. I honestly do not believe they would have the will to get out of bed if they were not convinced that one day they would be reunited with their dead spouses. And that is a belief I hope they never lose, as in many cases, it is that faith that sustains them.

Yes, we sin. But not like the world does. No where to even close to that.

I got a good laugh out of this one, and wrote a long comment regarding it, but in hopes that I misunderstood you, I have chosen to ask for clarification. Please, please, please tell me you are not trying to quantify your sins vs the quantification of some generic "sinners" and saying you sin less.

If that is what you are saying, then I need say no more, that would perfectly typify what I was talking about when I said arrogant presumption.

[CoreIssue]

[quote="CoreIssue"]Seems like you blame your father's being a pastor for your woes.

Of your many assumptions, this was one i felt the need to address first.

I made reference to my father to clarify perspective, not in resentment nor any perceived woes you assume I am suffering from. My father was the most important influence on my life, I simply did not see eye to eye with him on his god.

I find it incredible that you could take what i said about him as resentment or an effort to impugn him or his life. I would consider his death 14 years ago to be the darkest time of my life.

Why? You brought it up phrasing in a negative sound connotation?

However, you also misunderstood my entire comment. It is not to say that churches have no "right" to teach what they believe the bible to contain, but simply to say your self righteous attitude is of no less consequence than the ones you condemn. What makes your viewpoint of a church being some exclusive club that only those who dont partake of a particular package of sins to be acceptable.

Actually, you miss the point.

When a church presents itself as representing the Bible and the God of the Bible, they place themselves under God and the Bible. Thus they are judged by what they claim to represent.

When the fail to represent the Bible's teachings, they are, to put it bluntly, giving false representation.

There is nothing self righteous about point out blatant contradictions.

Recognizing something for what it is does mean being pompous or arrogant. It means we have the courage to look at what is sin and call it sin, without trying to appease our own selves.

It is not your personal opposition that appalls me, but your desire to make your personal view the absolute that all should adhere to or be deemed acceptable for your church i find incredible.

I am non denominational. I have no church in that sense of the modern day identifications.

My view is that we discuss the Bible, see what it says. If one is wrong, they change. If not, then they defend against false doctrine, as the Bible commands us to.

It is a rare group that does not demand you sign onto their statement of doctrines to become a member. They are the ones who seal out others. Will not tolerate open discussion of what the Bible actually says.

I would dare to say that all churches have differences of opinion, and that everyone has some weakness or limitation, I fail to see what makes some acceptable to tolerate or overlook, but others henious and only to be purged.

Then you don't know the Bible. Or don't care to see what it says is important.

Homosexuality is called perversion and an abomination to God. Yet, some denominations even have gay pastors.

That is total and deliberate turning of their backs on the Bible.

Salvation is by grace. No man can earn it. Yet many go ballistic you tell them they cannot make it their on their own.

The Bible says some are going to the the Lake of Fire for eternity. Some go ballistic at the idea they are not good enough just as they are.

Things like this defy and violate the very foundation of being Christian.

Sure the bible IMO says homosexuality is wrong, others would say the same about divorce in almost any situation. But wasnt the whole purpose of your Jesus' sacrifice to overcome sin? i find it interesting that his blood can cover some sins and allow people an opportunity to "enjoy" the fellowship of other believers while others should be cast out and deemed unacceptable for a different rash of "sins".


Repentence. You forgot the key issue of repentence.

All sin is sin in the eyes of God. Some sin is more destructive to the flesh.

Those who wish to defend the destructive sins, unrepentently, are hard to accept as actually being Christian.

There is a big distinction between struggling with sin and embracing sin. One can be worked with, the other cannot.

You cannot do that simple thing because you don't like what he wants you to try to do thereafter.
I am not sure what your trying to say, I have no belief in your god, so in one sense you are correct (if I am reading you right). I cannot do one simple thing. However the reason is quite different than the one you postulated out of thin air. It has nothing to do with the plans of being I consider most likely fictional, but with that very fact itself, how can I follow that which I believe to be untrue.

Thus you do not understand. And cannot.

I must admit, the whole eternal life, seeing your dead friends and family, peace and joy for all eternity is quite a gig. And I cannot imagine why anyone would not want such a lovely thing to be true. Nor would any sacrifice or effort be too much to achieve such a thing.

What makes you think we believe all our family will be there? Many of us very much are in families that are hostile, in whole or part, the God and the Bible.

That believe is what sustains my mother and my mother-in-law. I honestly do not believe they would have the will to get out of bed if they were not convinced that one day they would be reunited with their dead spouses. And that is a belief I hope they never lose, as in many cases, it is that faith that sustains them.

To be with all fellow believers is a pleasing thought. But we will not be there in rejoined unions of marraige and such.

I know many think that, but it isn't true.

It will be better. Our relationship, not sexual or any such thing, will be with all our fellows, not a limited few.

Yes, we sin. But not like the world does. No where to even close to that.

I got a good laugh out of this one, and wrote a long comment regarding it, but in hopes that I misunderstood you, I have chosen to ask for clarification. Please, please, please tell me you are not trying to quantify your sins vs the quantification of some generic "sinners" and saying you sin less.

No. My point was that while we still sin, generically speaking, we are not out there doing mass murders, acting like Islamics spreading their faith, bouncing from spouse to spouse, and such garbage.

For sure, we struggle with lying, cheating, and so on. But NOT on a pervasive and feeling nothing negative for it way.

If that is what you are saying, then I need say no more, that would perfectly typify what I was talking about when I said arrogant presumption.

We know the type you are talking about. But we are not them.

[Jessie]

I think all of you have fallen into the same trap. You do not understand the distinction between subjective truth and objective truth.

I am sure that whatever package of "sins" you find objectionable are unacceptable to coexist within your church. For some Homosexuality seems to be a popular one. For others it is the abortion issue. Perhaps yours is not one of those two, but fill in the blank with your own particular flavor of what you dislike. But whatever it is, I know that to see others "tolerate" such behavior is an abomination...... in your eyes.

But from my limited perspective, I fail to see the difference between whatever you believe is causing churches to slide into a "cesspool of worldliness" and the pompous arrogant opinions you have of yourself.

By definition, you are deeming yourself worthy to be there, but others by your definition are not. If you really believe in the bible you say you do, you should note that by it's definition you are totally unworthy to be alive. I guess that would disqualify anyone from worthiness to be part of anything, death has a way of limiting your social interaction.

Now feel free to disregard everything I have said. As an agnostic son of a pastor, who supported his family by an outside job (Was just reading http://www.christiantalkzone.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2365 ) I must admit to not being the best qualified to expect you to hear me.

But come on, surely you can see that the "sins" that each and every person on the planet commits on a regular basis are no different to your god.

amazing you call us pompous! truth is not subjective. truth is truth.


so is everything ok with you? each can do as he/she pleases?

do you know much of history? and how the bible if one follows it changes things for the better? also, you sound very young. perhaps I'm wrong.

I feel there is more than you are telling us regarding being a agnostic.

[Vladd44]

Why? You brought it up phrasing in a negative sound connotation?

The only negative connotation you could possibly construe as negative was about my expectation of your listening to what i said, hardly a condemnation of my dad, religion in general, or an allusion to my "woes" whatever they are defined as by you.

When a church presents itself as representing the Bible and the God of the Bible, they place themselves under God and the Bible. Thus they are judged by what they claim to represent.
When the fail to represent the Bible's teachings, they are, to put it bluntly, giving false representation.

If your going to claim to speak for god and it's teachings, I would have hoped the forgiveness your Jesus spoke of would fall a little higher on the scale. But I do understand, judgement is so much easier.

My view is that we discuss the Bible, see what it says. If one is wrong, they change. If not, then they defend against false doctrine, as the Bible commands us to.

And if in the end both parties believe they are right? Does one person's "truth" veto anothers?

What makes you think we believe all our family will be there? Many of us very much are in families that are hostile, in whole or part, the God and the Bible.

I don't expect anyone to be anywhere other than in the ground or an urn after they die. My point was simply that if someone were to believe that there was an afterlife, the desire to strive for this goal would be only logical. As far as family, I was speaking in more of a generic sense, rather than implying that all christians should expect their families in some heaven.

To be with all fellow believers is a pleasing thought. But we will not be there in rejoined unions of marraige and such.

My mother, and mother-in-law are both aware of the differences their bible teaches regarding relationships in heaven. But it has no bearing on them missing their long time spouses and hoping to see them again. Their faith has helped them through their sorrow, as far as what were to happen at some future point in a heaven, well I will have to leave those suppositions to those who actually expect to be around for something after they die here on planet earth.

No. My point was that while we still sin, generically speaking, we are not out there doing mass murders, acting like Islamics spreading their faith, bouncing from spouse to spouse, and such garbage.
For sure, we struggle with lying, cheating, and so on. But NOT on a pervasive and feeling nothing negative for it way.

So we are back to quantifying sins. Their sins is worse than my sins sort of thing. lol

Also, you should look closer at divorce statistics among those who call themselves christian, it is higher than the national average.

We know the type you are talking about. But we are not them.

We?

[Vladd44]

amazing you call us pompous! truth is not subjective. truth is truth.

Amazing? How so? I understand that I have no particular handle on "truth". And I find it quite incredible that you could even consider the option of you having some access to "truth"

As a finite human being with all the limitations that come along with being human, I realize that EVERYTHING i consider truth is subjective. It is limited to my personal experiences and viewpoints. The mere fact that I believe it to be true does not mean that it is.

To be able to know what is objective truth would require me to be able to judge it from all perspectives, but as a finite, I am only able to judge it true from my own view.

According to Buddhist myths, the Buddha told a story of a raja who had six blind men gathered together to examine an elephant.

When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?

They assert the elephant is like a pot (head), winnowing basket (ear), ploughshare (tusk), plough (trunk), grainery (body), pillar (foot), mortar (back), pestle (tail), or brush (tip of the tail).

The things that concerns me the most is when people can be convinced of their own rightness. Whether it be christians, atheists, or the islamist CoreIssue spoke of in a previous post.

Terrible things have been done in the past with that self assured awareness of being right. The christians are no more immune to these dangers than the muslims.

It leads directly to the point that caused me to actually post after almost a year after registration.

so is everything ok with you? each can do as he/she pleases?

Everything OK with me? I do not follow.

I would have to say that as an agnostic who has no particular loyalty to any written code of laws I am in a much better position to condemn than I think you have. Your bible would teach at least some benefit of the doubt for other humans. Whether part of christianity or not, Jesus taught forgiveness and love. Sure we can trot out Jesus' Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword, but the truth is Jesus taught some very forgiving viewpoints.

His harshest criticism was for self righteous religious people. Personally I am unable to find a single example of Jesus condemning someone of their "sins". If Jesus ever met a homosexual (and my argument isnt the bible doesnt say its wrong, I would agree, the bible condemns it) no one documented his berating of this terrible person.

He didnt seem to be stressed about the woman at Jacob's well and her marital situation. Truthful, but in no way a condemnation.

If there is an incredible character in your bible, it is Jesus. Humanity has been well conditioned to return negatives for negatives. Our laws since Hammurabi's first written code of laws have been based on such solutions.

The word has seen plenty of stick. Jesus himself talked of the world in terms of being in bondage and enslavement. I merely propose that the message of Jesus is more carrot than stick. According to your belief it all balances out in the end.

There are many things I deem unacceptable, but I am not claiming to be following the teachings of what I personally would define as the most forgiving guy in history. On the other hand, I only wish his followers were as forgiving as he was. Throughout history there have consistently been a few who were an asset to their cause. Too bad there have not been more.

do you know much of history? and how the bible if one follows it changes things for the better? also, you sound very young. perhaps I'm wrong.

I am not sure what would qualify as much. I could only say I have read what I would consider significantly more than the average person of my age about a whole range of subjects. History being a particularly important one.

As far as the bible making thingd better, the bible has been used for both good and evil. Abolitionist preachers spoke with a moral clarity for a greater good. On the other hand like anything else, it has been abused as well. From my perspective it is at best a draw.

I am 36. Not what I would define as young.

I feel there is more than you are telling us regarding being a agnostic.

Considering that I have posted only a few times, and have not really discussed my agnosticism in any terms other than designating myself as one, I would say that I have told you nothing of my being an agnostic.

What would you want to know?

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessie
amazing you call us pompous! truth is not subjective. truth is truth.

Amazing? How so? I understand that I have no particular handle on "truth". And I find it quite incredible that you could even consider the option of you having some access to "truth"

If you have no handle on truth the what in the world do you find it incredible we do?

What is with that? Because you don't we cannot possibly?

No. We don't have it down completely. But we sure have a handle on it as regards God and the Bible that is well above your understanding.

As a finite human being with all the limitations that come along with being human, I realize that EVERYTHING i consider truth is subjective. It is limited to my personal experiences and viewpoints. The mere fact that I believe it to be true does not mean that it is.

That is a truth claim based on purely human logic. It makes no room for anything beyond the physical.
To be able to know what is objective truth would require me to be able to judge it from all perspectives, but as a finite, I am only able to judge it true from my own view.

Another truth claim from one who claims to have no such thing.

You open with a denial in order to criticize us, then you launch into your truth claims that you hold superior to ours.

That is being a hypocrite.
According to Buddhist myths, the Buddha told a story of a raja who had six blind men gathered together to examine an elephant.

When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?

They assert the elephant is like a pot (head), winnowing basket (ear), ploughshare (tusk), plough (trunk), grainery (body), pillar (foot), mortar (back), pestle (tail), or brush (tip of the tail).

The things that concerns me the most is when people can be convinced of their own rightness. Whether it be christians, atheists, or the islamist CoreIssue spoke of in a previous post.

Terrible things have been done in the past with that self assured awareness of being right. The christians are no more immune to these dangers than the muslims.

And yet SOMEONE has a greater claim on being closets to the absolute Truth than others.

Your way IS a truth claim that holds its own reprocussions on Man. So don't think trying to be neutral is neutral.
It leads directly to the point that caused me to actually post after almost a year after registration.
So, are you seeing there is something far greater than you in existence?

Or, are you trying to convince us we should be looking at things solely via you version of Truth?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessie
so is everything ok with you? each can do as he/she pleases?

Everything OK with me? I do not follow.

I would have to say that as an agnostic who has no particular loyalty to any written code of laws I am in a much better position to condemn than I think you have.
And WE are pompous and self righteous by claiming exactly what you just claimed for yourself here, by following Christ and God?

That is hypocrisy supreme!

It is one thing to say we are wrong and you are right. It is quite another to attack us with pejoratives for our believes but not yourself.
Your bible would teach at least some benefit of the doubt for other humans.
It does. But NOT for things like homosexuality, divorce, abortion and so on. Those are absolutely wrong.

But it does teach patience and aiding those into these things that are repentent and trying to escape them.

Hate the sin but love the sinner. But if the sinner loves the sin there is not much you can do for them. But you sure don't let them destroy everything around you.
Whether part of christianity or not, Jesus taught forgiveness and love.
And justice and judgment as well.

Forgiveness is anchored in repentence by the doing the wrong. It is not blanket. God does only forgives those who repent by grace through Christ, the rest are going to Hell.
Sure we can trot out Jesus' Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword, but the truth is Jesus taught some very forgiving viewpoints.

Which have to be seen and understood from the issues of the sword and repentence. Two extremes of a JUST God and Savior.
His harshest criticism was for self righteous religious people. Personally I am unable to find a single example of Jesus condemning someone of their "sins".
Try Judas, for one.
If Jesus ever met a homosexual (and my argument isnt the bible doesnt say its wrong, I would agree, the bible condemns it) no one documented his berating of this terrible person.

He is not recorded as meeting one, so a moot point. You are making a negative proof statement, which is invalid.
He didnt seem to be stressed about the woman at Jacob's well and her marital situation. Truthful, but in no way a condemnation.

Because she was repentent.

But he beat the dealers, in the Temple, with a stick, and flipped all their tables and so on.

Dwelling on what you want to see is not a complete picture.

He embraced a tax collector and one who killed Christians, because they repented. He condemned those in unrepentent sin to eternal punishment.
If there is an incredible character in your bible, it is Jesus. Humanity has been well conditioned to return negatives for negatives. Our laws since Hammurabi's first written code of laws have been based on such solutions.

We are wll aware of repentence, mercy and forgiveness. But God has caused the deaths of million, in the Bible. And Christ will slay armies when he returns.

He is loving and just. Both, not just one.
The word has seen plenty of stick. Jesus himself talked of the world in terms of being in bondage and enslavement. I merely propose that the message of Jesus is more carrot than stick. According to your belief it all balances out in the end.

Agree. He offers Man forgiveness, mercy and love. He paid a price beyond belief for us. We cannot earn it, we must ask for it.

But, the same time, those who reject him will burn in the Lake for Eternity. Those who remain in their sin and guilt cannot be with him for eternity.
There are many things I deem unacceptable, but I am not claiming to be following the teachings of what I personally would define as the most forgiving guy in history. On the other hand, I only wish his followers were as forgiving as he was. Throughout history there have consistently been a few who were an asset to their cause. Too bad there have not been more.

Big subject.

I find many denominations totally judgmental and anti-Biblical. Few are left that really embrace the Bible.

Baptists are largely legalists. Catholics authoritarian. Most mainstrean denominations liberal and more sucular than Christian.

Few are left that will embrace one in need while not embracing their sins.

We all fail. We all have weaknesses. The distinction is are we willing to see those in ourselves and each other, then deal with each other understanding that?

Many erect barriers. They are called membership agreements, doctrinal agreements and so on. Requiring agreement to be part of a group.

CTZ does not require such. But, we take the command to defend sound doctrine seriously.

We don't do it by ordering one to conform. We prefer to discuss and change minds and hearts, be it ours or theirs. We just demand more than rhetoric. :tiphat:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessie
do you know much of history? and how the bible if one follows it changes things for the better? also, you sound very young. perhaps I'm wrong.

I am not sure what would qualify as much. I could only say I have read what I would consider significantly more than the average person of my age about a whole range of subjects. History being a particularly important one.

As far as the bible making thingd better, the bible has been used for both good and evil. Abolitionist preachers spoke with a moral clarity for a greater good. On the other hand like anything else, it has been abused as well. From my perspective it is at best a draw.

Sadly, there are those have twisted the Bible for their own purposes.

That does not make the Christian necessary. Often opportunists.
I am 36. Not what I would define as young.

Not young. Not old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessie
I feel there is more than you are telling us regarding being a agnostic.

Considering that I have posted only a few times, and have not really discussed my agnosticism in any terms other than designating myself as one, I would say that I have told you nothing of my being an agnostic.

What would you want to know?
I think she means why you are one.

But, Jessie has no problems speaking for herself! :D

Later

[Jessie]

Core pretty well said it.

see my dad was a agnostic. I know too well the misery that comes with the hypocrisy
that is dealt out. for him and everyone around him.

you are not even dealing on a fair level. or does that even matter?
or is honesty with ones self subjective too?

[InTheWind]

The Bible teaches one must be born again to understand the truths of the Bible (1 Corinthians 2-14 ) and it is my belief that out of all the so called Christians now and of the past the number of true born again is a small number.
Those that i have met that are born again are pretty much acting as Jesus would i believe and those that are just acting Godly have and are doing a great job of making the bible and Jesus look bad. So my point being you have to be filled with the HS before you will realize the truth, and the only way to accomplish that is by accepting what Christ did on the cross for our sin, by the way who is the only person that died and was resurrected which is what separates the true God from the false ones.
Peace.

[Vladd44]

If you have no handle on truth the what in the world do you find it incredible we do?

Because it seemse absurd to me for a finite human being to expect to be able to even comprehend "objective truth", much less define it to another person.

But we sure have a handle on it as regards God and the Bible that is well above your understanding.

I am sure most of us operate from the perspective of being right most of the time.

That is a truth claim based on purely human logic. It makes no room for anything beyond the physical.

Agreed, got something else? What else is there?

Another truth claim from one who claims to have no such thing.
You open with a denial in order to criticize us, then you launch into your truth claims that you hold superior to ours.
That is being a hypocrite.

ROFL.

Let's try this again.

I have made it clear that I dont believe in anything beyond subjective truth, my own views are limited by that as well. I have no particular handle on the truth, no more than you do. Nor are they particularly superior to your own.

My post was not about my opinion vs yours. Simply put, for me the bible is nothing more than an interesting collection of stories. So for me to argue a position in it can only be from the perspective of interpretation, not a personal life law.

Your way IS a truth claim that holds its own reprocussions on Man. So don't think trying to be neutral is neutral.

?? neutral? me? never.

So, are you seeing there is something far greater than you in existence?
Or, are you trying to convince us we should be looking at things solely via you version of Truth?

Neither. But I would love to see where I proposed that I become the messiah. :P

Everything OK with me? I do not follow.
I would have to say that as an agnostic who has no particular loyalty to any written code of laws I am in a much better position to condemn than I think you have.

And WE are pompous and self righteous by claiming exactly what you just claimed for yourself here, by following Christ and God?
That is hypocrisy supreme!
It is one thing to say we are wrong and you are right. It is quite another to attack us with pejoratives for our believes but not yourself.

You claim to adhere to a book I do not believe in. I fail to see why it would be hypocritical to expect you to live to the standards of your beliefs, while at the same time reject the teaching.

If you put yourself in the public to stand for a certain view, it is not required for a person wear the same shoes you chose to put on to point out what they consider hypocrisy.

I am judging your behavior wrong by the tenants you claim to hold dear. Not by my personal view.

It does. But NOT for things like homosexuality, divorce, abortion and so on. Those are absolutely wrong.

As opposed to hate?

Or a thousand other "sins"? are they not absolutely wrong? Perhaps there is a sliding scale of sins?

A lie is 1% of a homosexual relationship?
Divorce is 15x worse than paying a bill late?

I need to catch up, I thought sin was sin, which was my whole issue with this thread. Every person who considers themselves a christian committs things they consider sin. But some are tolerable, others arent.

[Jessie]

The Bible teaches one must be born again to understand the truths of the Bible (1 Corinthians 2-14 ) and it is my belief that out of all the so called Christians now and of the past the number of true born again is a small number.
Those that i have met that are born again are pretty much acting as Jesus would i believe and those that are just acting Godly have and are doing a great job of making the bible and Jesus look bad. So my point being you have to be filled with the HS before you will realize the truth, and the only way to accomplish that is by accepting what Christ did on the cross for our sin, by the way who is the only person that died and was resurrected which is what separates the true God from the false ones.
Peace.


:nod:

[Vladd44]

you are not even dealing on a fair level. or does that even matter?
or is honesty with ones self subjective too?

Not dealing on a fair level? What does that mean?

But ofc honesty is self subjective, people are deemed reliable, or honest because the people around them view them that way. Sometimes right, sometimes not.

The same is true with self perception, many times I have been in awe of deceptive people who considered themselves to be honest people. Never underestimate self delusion.

But I must confess I fail to see where anything I said could be construed as a challenge to honesty, or that I am somehow "dealing" in some unfair manner.

But to the one previous subject of my agnosticism,

I have always asked the wrong questions. But I spent a large portion of my life trying to rationalize the world around me to fit into what the bible taught me. It wasnt until i was in my late 20s that I realized there was one very simple answer that resolved all of my questions. That everything I had believed wasnt true.

So for the first time, I read the bible without the supposition that it was established fact. I must say it was the most unique reading of the bible I had ever done. And so were the results. For me anyway.

The need to rationalize OT with Jesus. Or Paul's legalistic views with those of Jesus.

OFC I should confess that I had long ago given up the idea of a 6x24hour creation in my teens.

Not sure what else there is to say about my agnosticism.

[CoreIssue]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
If you have no handle on truth the what in the world do you find it incredible we do?

Because it seemse absurd to me for a finite human being to expect to be able to even comprehend "objective truth", much less define it to another person.
Yet you just declared a truth here. Yours is okay, ours isn't?

Double standard.

We never have claimed to understand all truth. But we are quite capable of understanding what God has revealed to us. Your problem, not ours, if you don't like it, understand it or find it unacceptable.

That is your opinion you are now trying to judge us by. Which is hypocritical because you criticized us for doing so, based on the Bible.
Quote:


Originally Posted by CoreIssue
But we sure have a handle on it as regards God and the Bible that is well above your understanding.

I am sure most of us operate from the perspective of being right most of the time.
Which does not make us wrong and you right. It means we disagree and at most only one of us can be correct.
So, how do we test the Bible to see if it is right? By your perceptions and thinking? Or do we see if we can find actual historical evidence to back any of the claims that cannot possibly be explained by you thoughts on the issues?
Quote:

Originally Posted by CoreIssue
That is a truth claim based on purely human logic. It makes no room for anything beyond the physical.

Agreed, got something else? What else is there?
Revelation from God.
You just claimed an absolute truth after claiming no one can have a handle on absolute truth?
Make up your mind where you are coming from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Another truth claim from one who claims to have no such thing.
You open with a denial in order to criticize us, then you launch into your truth claims that you hold superior to ours.
That is being a hypocrite.

ROFL.

A blind to oneself hypocrite as well.
Let's try this again.

I have made it clear that I dont believe in anything beyond subjective truth, my own views are limited by that as well. I have no particular handle on the truth, no more than you do. Nor are they particularly superior to your own.

Subjective truth is Truth. The issue is are we judging correctly not.
My post was not about my opinion vs yours. Simply put, for me the bible is nothing more than an interesting collection of stories. So for me to argue a position in it can only be from the perspective of interpretation, not a personal life law.

Then what is your point in posting at all?
We understand your opinion and disagree with you.
Unless you are willing to test the Bible, the what is the point of this discussion? You have made your statement, so unless willing to pursue testing, it is pointless to say more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
Your way IS a truth claim that holds its own reprocussions on Man. So don't think trying to be neutral is neutral.

?? neutral? me? never.

To be non neutral requires one to embrace something as truth, based on a showable foundation.
You just keep contradicting yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
So, are you seeing there is something far greater than you in existence?
Or, are you trying to convince us we should be looking at things solely via you version of Truth?

Neither. But I would love to see where I proposed that I become the messiah. :P
By definition a god is what you place as the most important and superior thing in your life. If you, you are your own god, in fact.
And a religion is a set of beliefs, concepts and so on one places their faith in.
In other words, everyone has a god and a religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladd44
Everything OK with me? I do not follow.
I would have to say that as an agnostic who has no particular loyalty to any written code of laws I am in a much better position to condemn than I think you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
And WE are pompous and self righteous by claiming exactly what you just claimed for yourself here, by following Christ and God?
That is hypocrisy supreme!
It is one thing to say we are wrong and you are right. It is quite another to attack us with pejoratives for our believes but not yourself.

You claim to adhere to a book I do not believe in. I fail to see why it would be hypocritical to expect you to live to the standards of your beliefs, while at the same time reject the teaching.

You do have your laws you live by. Don't play the semantical game of using the word written to escape that reality.
We don't reject its teachings. Cannot be helped you wish to practice 'shopping cart theology,' meaning only looking to the parts you like.
If you put yourself in the public to stand for a certain view, it is not required for a person wear the same shoes you chose to put on to point out what they consider hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy I referred to was you denouncing our beliefs for certain reasons that you are doing yourself.
I am judging your behavior wrong by the tenants you claim to hold dear. Not by my personal view.
No, you are not.
You are judging us for not accepting unsound doctrine because you are trying to make Christ and God all inclusive. They are not.
They have set expectations, rules and such.
Paul said to kick out the unrepentent members living in sex sin. Christ said he will send many to Hell. God is merciful and forgiving, based on justice. You only want to see the merciful and forgiving and all encompassing.
Your problem you don't like those who actually see both sides of the coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreIssue
It does. But NOT for things like homosexuality, divorce, abortion and so on. Those are absolutely wrong.

As opposed to hate?

There is righteous hate. You need to read more.
The issue is not if one can hate or not forgive. It is if they do it for the right reasons.
God hates. The Bowls in Revelation are all about God's hate.
Or a thousand other "sins"? are they not absolutely wrong? Perhaps there is a sliding scale of sins?
Never said sin is not absolutely wrong. The issue is consequences.
All sin has consequences. But not all consequences are the same.
Those going into the Lake for eternity do not go in with equal punishment. It varies according to their sins.
A lie is 1% of a homosexual relationship?
Divorce is 15x worse than paying a bill late?
Read above.
I need to catch up, I thought sin was sin, which was my whole issue with this thread. Every person who considers themselves a christian committs things they consider sin. But some are tolerable, others arent.
The smallest sin is enough to condemn one to the Lake.
Repentence by faith in grace covers all sin, spiritually speaking.
Sin also carries physical and earthly consequences. His blood does not cover them. Those consequences are not all equal.
Homosexuality is destructive throughout ones being, mind, spirit and flesh. It is also destuctive to society. So, as the Bible says, it is a grievous sin.
Lying may carry no physical or such harm. Or it can be great, depending on the lie.
So, no, sin is a complex, not a simple issue.
__________________
1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
You are not there yet. Not even close.

[Jessie]

you are not even dealing on a fair level. or does that even matter?
or is honesty with ones self subjective too?

Not dealing on a fair level? What does that mean?

But ofc honesty is self subjective, people are deemed reliable, or honest because the people around them view them that way. Sometimes right, sometimes not.

The same is true with self perception, many times I have been in awe of deceptive people who considered themselves to be honest people. Never underestimate self delusion.

But I must confess I fail to see where anything I said could be construed as a challenge to honesty, or that I am somehow "dealing" in some unfair manner.

But to the one previous subject of my agnosticism,

I have always asked the wrong questions. But I spent a large portion of my life trying to rationalize the world around me to fit into what the bible taught me. It wasnt until i was in my late 20s that I realized there was one very simple answer that resolved all of my questions. That everything I had believed wasnt true.

So for the first time, I read the bible without the supposition that it was established fact. I must say it was the most unique reading of the bible I had ever done. And so were the results. For me anyway.

The need to rationalize OT with Jesus. Or Paul's legalistic views with those of Jesus.

OFC I should confess that I had long ago given up the idea of a 6x24hour creation in my teens.

Not sure what else there is to say about my agnosticism.

being deemed reliable and being reliable is 2 different things.
one is image the other is real.

what I mean by not dealing on a fair level, if you read cores posts slowly and thoughly I think you will understand. you have double standards. thats called crazy making.
not fair to yourself or others. and can change quite often depending on the person,
their feelings, what they think they need for that moment, society, experiences, and many factors.



in all sincerity I dont think you ever truly believed to begin with.
and you put on perhaps even for yourself as though you did.
I dont say that in a bad way, I think its better you do realize that.

your faith must be your own not a extension of someone elses.
a sincere doubt, God has more respect for.


not sure what you are meaning with rationalizing the ot and Jesus or paul etc. :scratch:

I think you are here because you are deep down looking. you KNOW there is something out there. you KNOW that we all cant have different truths to live by.
its all common sense with those things.

thats why I think you are here.

my dad was always looking. he too could talk with any other person of any other religion,
not Christians though. There were things he did not want to give up in his life,
he was more comfortable around worldly people but he knew he could not trust them so guess who he'd come to?

yes, self delusion is very real. scripture tells us that!
our hearts are far more wicked than we will ever know.

truth is not something I make it to be it is what it is.
its concrete. solid.